Democrats & Liberals Archives

At last - The Whole Truth is Out - Bush is Against Torture!!!

Osama Dead??? Read on. The White House has released documents that clearly show that Bush is against torture. First, how bad is it that the President of the United States of America has to prove that he is against torture?

Apparently, based on these cherry picked CYA documents, it was only former Attorney General John Ashcroft that wanted torture? How convenient? But why scapegoat John Ashcroft? Why not Scooter? Could Scooter "know" too much???

See:Values guided Bush. Could Carl Rove write a better headline than that? "A senior Justice Department official" (Alberto Gonzales?) has "disavowed" the terror memo and says that it is being rewritten. Isn't it interesting that the memo did not seem to need to be rewritten until after it was released to the public? It has been fine for all these years. But now it needs to be rewritten? Hmm. This must just be a miraculous case of immaculate torture.

Bush wrote a CYA memo claiming the right to authorize torture but saying that he would not do it, but then authorized violations of the Army field manual and other violations. Bush does not condone torture, as long as he is the one to define it. He will tell you when you are being tortured and you are not being tortured until he tells you that you are being tortured... Don't cry to Bush - he will give something to cry about.

He decided to honor the Geneva Conventions shortly after 9/11, but now now says that he doesn't understand them and needs to clarify them. So which is it? They are clear and can be honored, or they are unclear and need clarification. Paul Siegel pointed out in his article titled: Torture President Wins:

The administration will not say how water-boarding will be categorized. Clarity, indeed.
So... ... ... ... ... ...we need clarity... ... ... ... ... ...we don't want to clarify... Sounds like a deep conflict. I wonder how often George Bush punches himself in the face... Perhaps Freudian psycho-analysis would help. If international treaties need clarification, why do we need to clarify them unilaterally for ourselves. If an international treaty really needs clarification, why aren't we in Geneva talking to International partners. International treaties with unilateral national interpretations are meaningless. Basically Bush is saying that we agree to bound to our right to do any Damn thing we please. So how binding is that for us or anyone else? Why have a Geneva Convention at all? Under the Bush Regime the Geneva Convention will be worth about as much as the Constitution. It won't be worth the paper that it is written on.

So Bush claims that he does not have to honor the Geneva Conventions for detainees but White house officials testifying before Congress said:

that the Geneva Conventions applied to detainees in Iraq and therefore did not permit the use of coercive tactics.
See: Rummy Gave Secret Order. How many sides do these people have to their mouths.

Very interesting. The Bush Regime releases "cherry picked" internal documents when it suits its political agenda, but don't ask who was on the energy task force.

We are supposed to believe that there were only four techniques that were considered. 1: Convincing a detainee that he or his loved ones were about to be hurt or killed. Read; attack dogs and water boarding, but the regime had nothing to do with the torture in Abu Ghraib... 2: Exposure to cold. 3: Suffocation with a wet towel. Water-boarding is better, but what is the difference - really. I am going to suffocate you, or I am going to drown you. Flip a coin - call heads or tails... 4: Mild physical assault. To mimic Bush's rhetorical style: You say potato, I say torture...

Osama dead???

See: Bush Confirms... Photograph shows evidence of stress positions??? Where have I heard that before??? Bush says:

This just further illustrates the need for Congress to whip into shape and pass this administration's anti-terror legislation. Who knows what kind of useful information we could have gotten from him if his interrogation had been done right."
What does that mean??? We had control of him and rendered him to a country who could torture him better than we could??? We tortured him ourselves, but did it wrong??? In either case the direct result of Bush's policies will lead to even better martyrdom for Osama and even greater erosion of our moral authority??? What a mess.

Bush has lost the war in Iraq. Bush has lost, or is losing the war in Afghanistan. Bush has lost the war for the hearts and minds of Muslims. Bush has lost the war for the moral high ground. Bush is losing the so called war against terror. Had enough?


The coalition of the willing???

See: U.S. ThreatenedThe U.S. threatened to bomb Pakistan back into the stone age if they did not support us against the Taliban and al Qiada??? Well, we are an imperial power. Pushing the rest of the world around is our job, and it worked - after a fashion. But coalition of the willing??? Another bald faced lie from the bald faced liar who need not be named because you know who I am talking about. It worked after a fashion, but how much real support do we have?

Posted by Ray Guest at September 23, 2006 1:28 AM
Comments
Comment #183486

Dear President Bush:

Finally!

Somebody who will do what it takes to stop Americans from being killed in bars (1970’s), airports (thank you Carlos the Jackal), airplanes (2006) and skyscrapers (9/11).

Look, these facists have been blowing up innocent men, women and children for decades with impunity. Maybe, just maybe if someone somewhere had electrodes hooked up to their gonads, there would be a couple of innocent people alive today.

And, by the way, “moral high ground” be DAMNED! If history has taught us one thing, it is that taking the moral high ground has only gotten thousands of innocent people killed by incompetant inaction.

So if burning out someone’s brains with psychotic episode inducing drugs…if hanging them upside down and beating them with baseball bats…if applying water torture or whatever means you deem necessary to apply to get information that will save American lives…then DO IT!!!

And another thing…thank you for keeping us safe in American for the past 5 years. No one here in this column has the decency to say that, so I will.


Posted by: Jim T at September 23, 2006 5:27 PM
Comment #183487

It looks my link to Unconfirmed Sources “Bush Confirms” is bogus. Lets hope that it is completely false anyway.

Posted by: Ray Guest at September 23, 2006 5:30 PM
Comment #183488

If Osama did die from typhoid, then that is still bad news. He challenged the most powerful nation in the world and died of natural causes - either way - it is no victory for us.

Posted by: Ray Guest at September 23, 2006 5:33 PM
Comment #183489

If he died from typhoid, why did he die from typhoid? Was he trying to incubate an epidemic?

Posted by: Ray Guest at September 23, 2006 5:37 PM
Comment #183491

Was he tortured? Is the typhoid story a cover? Is this the October surprise? To many unknowns.

Posted by: Ray Guest at September 23, 2006 5:40 PM
Comment #183492

If Osama is dead in this ignominious way, I am content. Recent experience has taught me that IF we did take him alive, many people would be complaining that he was mistreated. It would be more trouble than it was worth.

I like the original idea that if we found Osama dead, we would bring out the body and if we found him alive, we would make him dead and bring out the body. If Allah has deprived Osama of martyr status by taking him by natural causes, perhaps there is some meaning to that.

Posted by: Jack at September 23, 2006 5:49 PM
Comment #183493

Jack,

Agreed, natural causes is probably the best we can hope for at this point.

Posted by: Ray Guest at September 23, 2006 5:56 PM
Comment #183494

If Osama is dead…then that is only good news for us.

If we took him captive and tried him, we would never have an end to hostage taking to get him released.

If we had killed him, there would be no end to retalitory bombings.

If he dies…not by our doing…that’s a bonus for us.

Posted by: Jim T at September 23, 2006 5:58 PM
Comment #183496

Ray,

Are you seriously trying to pass off satire as fact? Have you lost your mind? Please jump off the conspiracy bandwagon now.

Posted by: Charles Adams at September 23, 2006 6:16 PM
Comment #183497

“…but how much real support do we have?”

So, Ray, if I pop you in the mouth, do you stop to get support for retaliation?

Posted by: Charles Adams at September 23, 2006 6:21 PM
Comment #183498

Dear Ray,
I TOTALLY agree with Jim T! If someone in custody from a group of terrorist, thugs, whatever had taken your family hostage, I bet you would use whatever means possible to extract information from that person to possibly save your family’s life. I honestly do not feel our CIA or covert operatives go around torturing people for fun, they are trying to gain secrets which could save American lives. We did not start this conflict [despite some who may actually believe that], the Islamic extremist attacked us on our soil, when Sherman marched through Atlanta, he was not worried what people thought about him as he watched his Union troops ravage, rape and burn the south. Sometimes in life, the rules must go out the window to protect your own. There are instances in life when exsisting laws must be temporarily broken to uphold life and insure survival. Lincoln did it many times. Lincoln wielded unprecedented presidential power. Solely on the authority of his office he suspended habeas corpus, jailed dissidents, and shut down newspapers. He felt these actions were needed for the Union to prevail. Actions of the Bush Administration seem to be supported by Civil War precedents, such as military trials for our citizens who are captured in the theater of war while serving in an opposing army. Confederate prisoners were tortured by various means at the time…water torture, fingers decapitated, the safety of their families threatened. World Wars I & II the same, extreme measures are sometime called for during war time. It is a good thing for the citizens of any nation to closely watch their government for abuses of power, I am in total agreement with that, BUT, remember to also focus on winning the war and bringing the enemy to their knees. Remember, these people want to destroy YOU and you families!

Posted by: Joe at September 23, 2006 6:26 PM
Comment #183502

NEWS FLASH OBL MAY BE DEAD old age does what bush can’t. In other news three more U.S. troops die in Iraq today.

Posted by: Jeff at September 23, 2006 6:45 PM
Comment #183510

“If he dies…not by our doing…that’s a bonus for us.”

Yes, and I’m sure the Jews would have been much more satisfied if Hitler had slipped away and died of natural causes years later.
Right….

Posted by: Observer at September 23, 2006 7:38 PM
Comment #183511

See? How long did it take for somebody to say the word “Hitler” here? Huh?

What is the fixation with Adolph Hilter here?

If I were you (all) here, I would be quiet about Hitler, as he became chancellor of Germany while heading the National Socialist(NAZI)Party. That’s right, boys and girls, he was the head of the National Socialist Party. And seeing that Socailism is a tenant of the left, every time you say Adolph Hitler, you should first look in the mirror.

Remember…NAZI = Socialist.

Socialist = left.

Posted by: Jim T at September 23, 2006 7:51 PM
Comment #183514

“Remember…NAZI = Socialist.

Socialist = left.”

Weak.

Posted by: tony at September 23, 2006 7:56 PM
Comment #183516

Jim T,
Let’s just hope when someone puts an electrode to your gonads, you don’t cry foul, as I suspect you would.

Posted by: gergle at September 23, 2006 7:57 PM
Comment #183524

See, gergle, that’s the standard answer.

“You wouldn’t say that if it happened to you”.

Well, I can say with full confidence, that I have NEVER blown up innocent men, women and babies…AND I have never associated with people who do.

Therefore, I can say without hesitation that I will NEVER have my gonads hooked up to a wall socket.

And that makes your assertion invalid.

However, if I WERE one of those terrorists, I would consider torture as a “part of the job” and to be expected.

Posted by: Jim T at September 23, 2006 9:00 PM
Comment #183525

Tony,

NAZI = Socialist

Socialist = Left

FACT. Period.

Posted by: Jim T at September 23, 2006 9:02 PM
Comment #183526

Joe & Jim T, while I support interogation, the “what if it is your family” scenario is tough. Tough, because we do/should as a country rise about the scenario and ensure that their is no emotional element to torture. I would be the first to say “hand me a water board” if it was anyone close to me in peril. And that is the very reason we need to ensure their are rules and consequences in the use of interogation.

Posted by: Edge at September 23, 2006 9:04 PM
Comment #183528

Jim T;

Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler!

Whats the big facination with HITLER?

Well, lets see….

Hitler got the people in Germany to believe that they were “superior”.

He got them to believe that they had the most powerful military in the world. And, were un-stopable.

He got them to believe that they had the best life style, with prosparity and economic freedom.

He got them to believe that their suffering (Poverty) was not there fault.

He favored the elite of his day, and gave them special favors.

He terrorised the rest of the people in his country, that was not the “upper crust”. (He was a Classist)

He only allowed news or information to the public, that was pre-approved by him or his Administration.

He spyed on his people without warrents or due process of the law.

He campainged a successful propaganda effort against a faction of his own people, that were labled his “enemys”.

He limited the government of Germany, to only those that would agree with him and his policys.

He tortured or killed those that went against him.

He detained people and held them in prisons without due process or warrents or a chance to defend themselves.

He invaded other oountries that never attacked him or his country.

He had secret “death” camps.

Any of this sound flicken familiar,
at all!!!!!

Posted by: PlayNice at September 23, 2006 9:18 PM
Comment #183529

Anyone who condones torture, be he president, partisan, or merely someone afraid, is unworthy of the values this country was founded upon.

Posted by: Trent at September 23, 2006 9:20 PM
Comment #183531

PlayNice, is there a leader of a nation (today or past) that your list would not apply too? I understand the comparison you are making, however I think you missing a key element in our nation that the four part system, judicial, legislative, media, & executive can work together to improve on your concerns. In two months we have an election in two years we have a new President, perhaps this might works towards improving on your concerns.

Also, I have to ask is your conclusion that the United States will become a modern day Germany? If so, who will we be exterminating in concentration camps by the millions? I hope not. I hope I am reading into your point too far.

Posted by: Edge at September 23, 2006 9:34 PM
Comment #183533

Our form of torture would be handing them a Ham sandwich and play hard rock or rap all day long.

Posted by: RAK at September 23, 2006 9:42 PM
Comment #183535

Jim T

NAZI=Fascist

Fascist=GWB

Posted by: mark at September 23, 2006 10:06 PM
Comment #183538

Edge,

I do not care for the excuse, “But mom, Billys mom lets him do it”. We are America, we are not “some other country”. We are, or should be, greater than that. (No matter what the excuse, and I say “excuse” because there is no good “reason” for torture).

The Legislative, Executive, and Judicial branches of the government are all under Republician control. Hand picked, and the strong-arm tactics, of the “Contract on America”, still applies.

As to the Media, the so called “Liberal Media” is a myth propagated by the right-wing. The only liberal media in America might be a newspaper in Podunk Ohio, owned by a struggling man with one suit. Otherwise all other media is big business, with big business interests and big business, shall we say…. pressures? (The business of business, is to stay in business).

Oh yes, the “elections”. Well, no self respecting Democrat or liberal, is holding his/her breath on that one. “Screw me once shame on you, screw me twice….” By the way, you using a DeBolt machine this fall?

Modern day Germany? No. Hitler was narrow minded. He wanted to actually occupy the rest of the world, (and stupid too, because he was killing off 1/3 or his own people, so how many houses can you get for cripes sake), meaning he wanted territory. Bush doesnt want to occupy all the world. He just wants the worlds oil. He will just make busines deals where he can, and send in the military to raid the rest. Oh, and of course that is going to tick a lot of people off, so the military will be there to … “keep the peace”?

And, who will be kept in these so called death camps of today? (They are called “black camps”, I believe). Well, the “terrorists” of course. Mostly Muslim, some guilty, some not. Who cares?

Bush just signed or will sign a bill saying that only he will know, only he has the expertise to make such decisions, about who will go there. Who is guilty and who is not. Who gets tortured and who doesnt. The guy just released back to Canada from Syria, you, me, I guess that is up to the President. (And, Syria? Who knew? I thought that they were part of Iran, you know the “bad guys”, “the evil do-ers”, the supporters of “terrorists”, the “first Iraq, then Iran, then Syria” —- plan.)???

(Since he is the Executive, Legislative, Judicial, and now…The Inturperator of the Genieva Convention. Brotworst anyone?)

Posted by: PlayNice at September 23, 2006 10:41 PM
Comment #183539

Lets once again put the threat into proportion. Even if these terrorists were to be sucessful every year say 9/11 total deaths anually, that is between 3-5k a year. This threat is so immonant that you are 100 times more likely to die driving to work in a car accident. So we are so worried about terrorist that we have done NOTHING to secure our nothern or southern borders for over 5 years. So what exactly have we done that would be appropite for the level of threat we are facing. Hell spending the 300+ billion a year we spend on the war or terror we were to spend eaqually on State Troupers in every state in the Union we could save more lives anually be reducing the number of Drunk drivers on the road (Drunk drivers kill over 100,000 a year). So lets place lots and lots of money to prtect us from terrorists that have trouble even hitting hear on normal circumstances refer to # of deaths from 1980-2000. So to protect ourselves from a major atack every 25-30 years we spend 300+ billion and tie up our stregic resources in the sand box. Please people look at how many we are actually saving vs. spending the money elsewhere to save even more lives.

Posted by: timesend at September 23, 2006 10:42 PM
Comment #183541

Jim t in his 9:00 post says that he will never have electrical wires attached to his genitals because he never has had anything to do with any terrorists. Well Jim, that’s something you have in common with many of those who were spirited away to secret prisons and kept, incommunicado, with no recourse or rights, or accountability, for as long as their captors felt like keeping them. It must really suck to have that happen to you if you’re innocent. You could be next!

Your assertion, Jim, is almost unbelievably asinine in light of those who have suffered the fate described above.

The problem starts when those who are not actually terrorists are subjected to this kind of shit. Even if they ARE terrorists, how we treat them is about US, not about them.

I hope to God you’re correct it never happens to you. It should never, ever happen to ANYONE. when we start basing justice on emotions, there is no justice.

Posted by: Steve Miller at September 23, 2006 10:55 PM
Comment #183546

Charles Adams,

I recognised almost immediately that I had been duped and had linked to a completely bogus site. I disavowed the site in early comments. I do still think that there is some small possibility that there might be some truth to the idea that Osama was captured, rendered, and tortured to death. But we have evidence of that and the link to “Bush Confirms” is bogus. Plain fact, I screwed up by rushing to publish without enough research.

All,

Thanks for your comments. Some of you have pointed out that I might torture in order to save a loved one. Yes I might break the law under those circumstances. There should be a law to break. If a person is going to go to such extremes it should be only under the most extreme of circumstances, and he should be willing to accept the consequences.

You Republicans love your slippery slopes. Do you not see the ice? Once you start a torture industry it will grow and take on a life of its own. CIA officers are heroes that fight for our country, but when you put people into a corrupt situation, they will become corrupted. Nothing is more corrupting than forcing somebody to torture another human being. “Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” When you have the “right” to torture and kill another human being - you have God like power over them.

Torture is ineffective.

Torture isolates us from the support that we need and increases support for the terrorists.

If we become like the enemy, we become the enemy. We may as well surrender and start reading the Quran. It is cowardly and un-American to sink as low as your enemy.

Posted by: Ray Guest at September 23, 2006 11:27 PM
Comment #183547

Just for clarity for my last comment.

We should start reading the Quran and attending radical extremist Mosques.

Posted by: Ray Guest at September 23, 2006 11:34 PM
Comment #183553

PlayNice,

Gee…that sounds like 1/3 of the United Nations. Pick one…Syria…Sudan…Venezuela…pick one.

Steve Miller…

Pu-leeeeeeze. More Liberal hysteria.

(Breathlessly) YOU COULD BE NEXT!!!

Puh-leeeeeze.


Ray Guest:

Your last post equivocates. I refuse to equivocate. I will not believe that torturing will make us the same as our enemy. Only when we strap bombs to our bodies and blow ourselves up in a mosque will we be like our enemy. Only when we blow up elementary schools full of Muslem children will we be like our enemy. Only when we attempt genocide on those who are not Christian will we be like our enemies (Ottoman Turks in the Balkans).

Even you have to admit, we’ve got a looooooong way to go before we are ANYTHING like our enemy.

Posted by: Jim T at September 24, 2006 12:02 AM
Comment #183557

Jim T.

It is a matter of degree. We are a long way away from being as low as our enemy - in some dimensions. We are a long way away from NAZI fascists right wing extremist - but surely you are not suggesting that we wait until we have sank all the way down the scale before we take a hard look at ourselves.

I am not sure how exactly you think I am equivocating - please explain.

Posted by: Ray Guest at September 24, 2006 12:18 AM
Comment #183559

Jim T.

We are not strapping bombs on ourselves. But we did blow the livin hell out of Iraq - which did nothing to us. As I see it, we seem poised to stay there and kill more people and sacrifice more of our own beloveds fighting a lost cause to protect the legacy of a dry drunk gun slinger. That is pretty spiritually degenerate. We have killed a lot more of them then they ever killed of us. We killed a lot more of them in order to maintain our Imperial power, before they ever killed any of us. Mind you, I do enjoy the fruits of Imperial power - but at what cost?

Posted by: Ray Guest at September 24, 2006 12:25 AM
Comment #183560

Jim T.

Have you forgotten that we gave Saddam the poisin gas? Have you forgotten that Rummy shook his hand while he was using it on his own people - most likely encouraged him to maintain stability?

Posted by: Ray Guest at September 24, 2006 12:27 AM
Comment #183562

Jim T,
“Only when we attempt genocide on those who are not Christian will we be like our enemies…”

You mean people like American Indians?

We cannot undo what happened in the past. It is not really possible to atone, and apologies are useless. What happened to American Indian tribes too numerous to count, to Aborigine groups too numerous to count, what happened to the Tasmanians, to the tens of millions in India which the British Raj was responsible for killing, it cannot be undone.

But surely, Jim, upon reflection it must occur to you that what we really want is to stand for Human Rights with every ounce of our being.

There is no such thing as a right to torture. There is not even such a thing as a right to “rough treatment.” If you are a Christian, consult your better angel, heed the still small volce.


Posted by: phx8 at September 24, 2006 12:42 AM
Comment #183563

phx8,

Thanks. We cannot undo what we did in the past but we can change our behaviour today. We stopped genocide in WWII and we could stop genocide in Darfur - no oil - no money - no matter.

Posted by: Ray Guest at September 24, 2006 12:55 AM
Comment #183567

“Lets once again put the threat into proportion. Even if these terrorists were to be sucessful every year say 9/11 total deaths anually, that is between 3-5k a year.”

I think this is the most impotent, nonchalant and criminally callous rationalization for ignoring terrorism I have ever heard. But don’t you worry. There are good men on the front lines fighting to keep you safe so that you can sit at home and complain about the job better men than you are doing.

Posted by: Charles Adams at September 24, 2006 1:52 AM
Comment #183577

Timesend,

Speaking about putting things in prospective. Osama attacked us on 9/11 with a band of say less than 500 men. Do we catch him. No. Do we punish him or his group. No. We catch some but let most go. Or turn them over to the Afgan government who lets them go.

Then we use this to start a war with a country that has never attacked us and we kill between 100 to 200 thousand of its citizens. (completely unrelated to the 9/11 attack).

Now, talk about your over kill.

I agree, lets (at least) keep it in prespective!

Posted by: PlayNice at September 24, 2006 4:02 AM
Comment #183580

Re Hitler

I think we always talk about Hitler because he is always on the History Channel. He is our major reference for a bad guy. In fact, he is probably the last bad guy more or less universally accepted AS a bad guy. That is why the references keep coming.

Unfortunately, we no longer really talk about Hitler. Now we are really talking about today’s leaders and we fit the Hitler mold around them.

National Socialism was a particular development in that particular place and time. We can draw lessons, but there is no clear parallel today. The best lesson to draw is just the general one to be wary of utopian promises, total (totalitarian) solutions and state power. You probably cannot get more specfic when comparing something that disappeared 60 years ago to anything today.

Posted by: Jack at September 24, 2006 4:15 AM
Comment #183581

Charles,

“There are good men on the front lines fighting to keep you safe”

SAFE? SAFE? SAFE FROM WHAT, FOR CRIPES SAKE!!!

“so that you can sit at home and complain about the job better men than you are doing.”

And, you can sit here with THEIR blood on YOUR hands and feel like your a big bad stud….well double bully for you. You must feel pretty good about yourself that some other Americans kid has to fight and possiably dye for your sorry … along with hundreds of thousands of Iraquis that never did any harm to you, never attacked you, never terrorised you, and never wanted to hurt YOU at all.

Someone pass the wine flask, I think another Christian is being fed to the lions!

Posted by: PlayNice at September 24, 2006 4:15 AM
Comment #183582

Jack,
Keep those blinders on. That way you wont see the Gestapo comming for you.

Posted by: PlayNice at September 24, 2006 4:18 AM
Comment #183587

This was posted by Playnice….All I have to say is read, then reread, and read again..because it couldn’t be said any better! “Timesend,

Speaking about putting things in prospective. Osama attacked us on 9/11 with a band of say less than 500 men. Do we catch him. No. Do we punish him or his group. No. We catch some but let most go. Or turn them over to the Afgan government who lets them go.

Then we use this to start a war with a country that has never attacked us and we kill between 100 to 200 thousand of its citizens. (completely unrelated to the 9/11 attack).

Now, talk about your over kill.

I agree, lets (at least) keep it in prespective!”

Posted by: Nickie at September 24, 2006 5:43 AM
Comment #183597

PHX8…

“But surely, Jim, upon reflection it must occur to you that what we really want is to stand for Human Rights with every ounce of our being.”

That’s right. I’m standing up for the Human Rights of all the people who got blown all to hell by people who care nothing for Human Rights.

I’m standing up for OUR Human Right NOT to be blown all to hell by a freak with a bomb tied to his chest.

I’m standing up for the Human Right NOT to have to consider whether or not to go somewhere or do something because there may be a chance of getting blown up by an idiot with C-4 and ball bearings strapped to his chest and a desire to hump 72 virgins.

Yes, I’m standing up for Human Rights. OUR Human Rights…something just about everyone here FORGETS about. We DO have Human Rights too, ya know. And it’s about damn time we started standing up for OUR Human Rights.

PlayNice…

“Then we use this to start a war with a country that has never attacked us and we kill between 100 to 200 thousand of its citizens. (completely unrelated to the 9/11 attack).”

WE killed that many folks? Gee, I must have missed the news article that says that our troops are machine-gunning innocent Iraqi citizens. I mean, a few bad soldiers shot some innocent Iraqi citizens…and they are being prosecuted for it…but I guess I totally spaced out and missed the headlines “AMERICAN SOLDIERS MURDER 100,000 TO 200,000 INNOCENT IRAQI CITIZENS”.

Where did you see those headlines? Where did you get those body counts? Ya know…if our soldiers HAD murdered 200,000 people, wouldn’t ALL of our soldiers be in the stockade awaiting prosecution? Hey…that MUST be why many people say that we’re doing so badly over there. ALL of our troops are in jail awaiting prosecution for murdering 200,000 innocent Iraqi people.

100,000 to 200,000 innocent Iraqi citizens murdered by U.S. troops? Sounds like “someone” is plaing “fast and loose” with some numbers…wouldn’t you say, PlayNice?

Posted by: Jim T at September 24, 2006 9:07 AM
Comment #183604

Oh yeah,
let’s stand up for OUR human rights by pissing all over THEIRS. Doesn’t work that way my friend.

Posted by: Steve Miller at September 24, 2006 9:37 AM
Comment #183612

osama tortured & dies at the bush ranch in texas.

Posted by: Roger at September 24, 2006 10:18 AM
Comment #183615

Thanks for all of your comments.

Jim T.,

I like the idea of standing up for our human rights. Isn’t that what the Constitution is all about? Isn’t fighting against people who would undermine, subvert, and nullify the Constitution standing up for human rights.

Yes, by all means lets fight the terrorists. I have got an idea. Lets fight them in Tora Bora. Oh I forgot, we had our chance, but we sent Osama’s former comrades in arms, people that he had pulled out from under Soviet tanks, to capture or kill him. Smooth move. We could have nipped the global insurgency in the bud by squashing him there. Now it is too late.

As Steve Miller pointed out. You are either for human rights or you are against human rights. By definition, you cannot secure human rights by violating human rights.

Posted by: Ray Guest at September 24, 2006 10:43 AM
Comment #183620

ON my MSN homepage: “the U.S. war in Iraq has become the PRIMARY RECRUITMENT TOOL (emphasis mine) for islamic extremists”. Source? U.S. intelligence!!!

Wake up and smell the coffee, neocons! your chickens are coming home to roost.

I’m dying to hear what creative explanations we’re going to hear on this one. It should be good.

Posted by: Steve Miller at September 24, 2006 11:26 AM
Comment #183621

So now I am criminally negligant for actually wanting the US to pay attention to its borders hire more State Troupers, you know the things that would actually make us safer. What good does it serve to be in Iraq, we obviously droped the ball in Afgan. because we spent too much time worring about Iraq and not enough about problems that we could actually solve. Talk about criminally negligant, The REPUBLICANS controll the HOUSE, SENATE, and WHITE HOUSE and can’t figure out how to protect the southern or northern border. I just was trying to put this arguement into prospective. This is like argueing about the $200 dollar car payment when you still have to pay the $700 rent payment. Get the picture we have bigger problems that could use our attention and money.

Posted by: timesend at September 24, 2006 11:54 AM
Comment #183622

Jim T,

“100,000 to 200,000 innocent Iraqi citizens murdered by U.S. troops? Sounds like “someone” is plaing “fast and loose” with some numbers…wouldn’t you say, PlayNice?”

Sorry this is old, almost a year and a half old, but the 100,000 of March 2005 has risen now, to 200,000 plus, in Sept. 2006.

http://home.comcast.net/~ndpwnew/PeaceAndWar/TheCivilianDeathTollInIraq.htm

Now Jim, imagine that it was not Iraq that was invaded in 2002, but America. Imagine all the internal chaos that this would bring. Every city at “war”. 60% unemployment, water, food, medical, all in short supply. You never know if you or your friends or neighbors will be taken or killed by your other neighbors (the insurgents); or your government; or the occupying countries Army.

Speaking of your Government, you know that it is just a joke. Unable to restore any similance of peace. Election ballots were fixed, by truck loads of fake ballots comming through Mexico. And, the raticals from that country are now in charge of your country.

(After years of war between your two countries, now Mexico thugs are dictating your government policies and direction - so the invading Army accomplished what years of war with Bush in charge had prevented).

You dont know what to do or where to go for help. Bands of Christians roam the streets and shoot at the invaders, but since the invaders look just like us, they dont care who they shoot. Also, the Christians and the Jews do not really care who they kill, they just kill people to make a point and in hopes that this will help them take control of the governemnt and the country, to wage more war to kill all the people that are not Christians or who are not Jewish - which ever one wins control in the end.

Say that, this has been going on for 4 years now, and you know people and see people that have been murdered right in your own neighborhood that have been found in mass graves. Maybe you even have relatives that were victims of a car bomb or were found dead in the street. There are many people in your town that tell stories of secret government prisons or prisons run by the invaders that torture people. Many that have been released tell stories of horror and claim their innocence and how they barely survived.

One was held for 18 months and tortured by the invaders and was just released. You just saw his brother read his journal on Fox News. His brother read of his capture because he was unable to speak of it without crying and shaking. He recounts that his brother was a driver in a car that was hired to take some “bad people” to the next town, and his only crime or connection to these people was that he was their hired driver. He has come out of 18 months of hell to find that his wife and daughter were killed by the government thugs that murder people and drop them in mass graves. (Or maybe it was done by the Christian or Jewish bands of killers. No one really knows for sure. It was probably done by those people that you gave a ride to, a life time ago.)

Now, imagine that this man is you. This country is yours.

Still want to cut his nuts off? :-)
(Brave boy - Real smart - Way to go, to bring “Democracy” to the world !!!)

Roger wrote:

“osama tortured & dies at the bush ranch in texas.”

Totally awsome dude, what did he die from?

The total torture, and butchery of the English language — by G.W. Bush?

Posted by: PlayNice at September 24, 2006 11:59 AM
Comment #183623

Steve Miller,

“But what if this country wasn’t as safe for us as it actually is?”

There we go. What if a frog had wings?

But don’t let me poo-poo the “what if” scenario you have set up.

What if…

We had tortured someone in Hezbollah and the Beruit attack was averted?

We had tortured someone and the Khobar Towers never happened?

We had tortured someone and the USS Cole never happened?

We had tortured someone our embassies in Africa were never bombed?

We had tortured someone and 9/11 never happened?

Lots and lots of “What ifs” huh?

“As the london Times asked in it’s headline the day after the buffoon in the White House was elected; How can 52,000,000 people be so stupid?”

The same 52,000,000 “stupid” people that HAVEN’T been victims of a terrorist attack since 9/11/01…5 years ago. Thank you, “chimp in charge”.


Ray…

“Yes, by all means lets fight the terrorists. I have got an idea. Lets fight them in Tora Bora. Oh I forgot, we had our chance…”

Yes, we had our chance, but Bill Clinton refused to take custody of Osama when he was offered to us. In light of this, your words in these two sentences suddenly become very prophetic…

“We could have nipped the global insurgency in the bud by squashing him there. Now it is too late.”

Yes, sadly, far too late. Thanks for nothing, Billy Bob.


PlayNice,

About those 100,000 to 200,000 innocent people we’ve killed…

According to Iraq Body Count here, a minimum of 43,387 and a maximum of 48,174 innocent civilians have been killed.

Horrible, horrible figures to be sure. 43 to 48 thousand too many…but nowhere NEAR the 100,000 to 200,000 you have posted here.

Hint: only takes a minute to Google.


Posted by: Jim T at September 24, 2006 12:04 PM
Comment #183624

Steve Miller,

“ON my MSN homepage: “the U.S. war in Iraq has become the PRIMARY RECRUITMENT TOOL (emphasis mine) for islamic extremists”. Source? U.S. intelligence!!!”

OMG - Ive been saying that on this blog for 2 weeks now…..

So, Air America & free speech works !!!! BRAVO!

Keep posting people.

Posted by: PlayNice at September 24, 2006 12:06 PM
Comment #183626

Jim T.

Hint, only takes a heart to use a brain.
But nothing works well in a vacumn!

Posted by: PlayNice at September 24, 2006 12:10 PM
Comment #183629

Jim T,

Seams like you get your news from the same source that said only 1,500 bodys were found in New Orleans, after Katrina.

Too bad that your reliable source (?) couldnt shut up the net reources, that report that the governemnt ordered and delivered 25,000 body bags to the site. Humm?

You seem to terribly blind, deaf and dumb, to “wake up and smell the roses”. I think I smell a plant. Or, is it some other smell?

Is it sulfur or is that Turkish coffee, I smell?

Posted by: PlayNice at September 24, 2006 12:22 PM
Comment #183630

PS: For anyone that is not interested in re-writting history?

Tora Bora - sssh.. (That was Bush, not Clinton).

Posted by: PlayNice at September 24, 2006 12:25 PM
Comment #183631

Anybody who says torture could have necessarily prevented the attacks forgets one fact in their naivete: torture is an unreliable means of extracting information. It’s just as likely that one could end up getting bad information and being lead off course.

Then where would we be? Playing dirty doesn’t always mean winning. Often, it just means becoming more of a loser. We need to keep that in mind anytime we start suggesting dirty tricks and atrocities of war as sure-fire solutions to our problems.

If you read the 9/11 report, the problem isn’t that our government wasn’t ruthless enough, it’s that it wasn’t paying attention. We could have stopped 9/11 without having to resort to betraying our own ideals.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 24, 2006 12:40 PM
Comment #183638

The only thing Bush is against is being held responsible for torture.

Posted by: womanmarine at September 24, 2006 1:22 PM
Comment #183639

Emphasis on what Stephen just said. We did not more info to stop 9/11. We certainly did not need misleading false info from torture. We needed a President. We needed a President that put the same emphasis on terrorism that “Billy Bob” Clinton did.

Jim T.,
I am going to go out on a limb here and make the assumption that you are and have been in support of conservative Republicans for the last 13 years and so I am going to take the rhetorical liberty to use the word “you” in that context. Feel free to disavow support for past or present conservative Republican actions and polices.

YOU set out through cheap - partisan - Machiavellian - end justifies the means - back stabbing politics - to cripple Clinton’s Presidency from the very start for the purpose of short term partisan gain.

YOU screamed bloody murder - wag the dog - nation building - quagmire - every time Clinton used military force.

YOU overlook the fact that Clinton attacked Bin Laden and YOU screamed bloody murder.

YOU distort the truth by overlooking the fact that Bin Laden was a bit player when Clinton’s crippled Presidency passed the opportunity to take him into custody.

YOU overlook the fact that terrorism has gone up since YOU conservative Republicans have been keeping the world “safe.”

YOU overlook the fact that around 6000 Americans have died on your watch.

YOU overlook the fact that Iraq is a privatised mercenary war with no accurate body count of (American) mercenary deaths or the Iraqi death toll - where the actual death toll is obviously much higher than official numbers.

Posted by: Ray Guest at September 24, 2006 1:57 PM
Comment #183640

Jim T.

One more YOU.

YOU let Bin Laden get away when he was not just a major player - YOU let him get away when he was THE player. Do YOU really think that is a fair comparison to crippled Clinton Presidency’s mistake with a bit player?

Posted by: Ray Guest at September 24, 2006 2:05 PM
Comment #183651

Jim t,
“What if we had tortured someone”? Well then, we would be JUST AS BAD as they are! People who torture ARE terrorists. You think the United states of America should stand for torture? Not me, jack.

You didn’t address the more important issues; What if we didn’t engage in a useless war against people who didn’t attack us in the first place but instead hunted down and killed those who actually did? Our own intelligence agencies are telling us what some have known for years; that we are exacerbating the terrorism problem by being in Iraq.

What good does it do us if we avoid attack for five years, but cause many, many more to assume the mantle of terrorism? By our own actions? Look at the timeline of the world trade center terrorism. These people have all the time in the world, and they don’t give up. It actually worries me all the more that it is taking as long as it is for us to be attacked again. I worry that they are waiting to pull off somethig really big. And of course they have no lack of recruits, thanks to our very own chimp-in-chief.

Again I say, Why not spend the hundreds of billions of dollars we’re pissing away as we also piss away the lives of our young soldiers and marines, on tracking down those who would harm us, and killing them.

Posted by: Steve Miller at September 24, 2006 3:33 PM
Comment #183653

As I just read in another thread, from the sermon on the mount “so by their fruits you shall know them”

It’s just that simple, dude.

Posted by: Steve Miller at September 24, 2006 3:40 PM
Comment #183654

Jim T,

Remember…NAZI = Socialist.
Socialist = left.
Posted by: Jim T at September 23, 2006 07:51 PM

Iraqi Army elite corps = “REPUBLICAN Guard”
Saddam = Republican
Bush = Saddam

;-)

Posted by: ElliottBay at September 24, 2006 3:55 PM
Comment #183659

Steve Miller,

Ditto most of what you said except: We don’t need hundreds of $$$billions to track terrorists. So as I have written else where: Where would we be if we had spent that money on homeland security and energy efficiency, alternative energy, and carbon neutral fuels. Our economy would be booming with new investment, productivity gains, new high paying jobs, fiscal responsibility, and reduced trade deficits. Our dependence on foreign oil would be broken. Iraq and Iran would not have enough money to pursue WMD - nuclear or otherwise. Terrorist funding would dry up. Despotic Regimes would collapse and real democracy would have a chance to flourish in the Mideast as the Mideast went through the associated “phase change.” We would no longer need to pursue imperialistic policies to maintain a supply of cheap gas for our SUVs. Imperialistic policies that have literally indirectly caused the deaths of millions of innocents around the world. The end or at least reduction of imperialism would allow us to become honest power brokers and would take the wind out of terrorist sails by reducing the reasons for people to hate us.

Posted by: Ray Guest at September 24, 2006 4:27 PM
Comment #183671

Remember Dylan in the 60’s and 70’s. Every so called protest song could be written right now they are so relevant. How many soldiers of the politicians are over there fighting an unknown enemy? Then let’s crucify the soldiers who kill innocent??? people when we have no idea who is the enemy. Bring our children home. We have a big mess right here oh sure let’s build a fence..meanwhile the illegal immigrants dug that 5 mile tunnel from Mexico to here please if we didn’t even know that you tell me how do you think we can fight terrorists. I don’t rally care that much about the illegals but the schools are full of them and all kinds of money and special classes just for them, free lunch, etc and I know many of them and they are not working for minimum wage they get $10 $14 or more dollars an hour doing landscaping etc. Don’t hold employers accountable for hiring them but hold a bartender responsible for someone who drank too much.
Well as a kid Dylan remembers in school they had to pull coats over their heads and hide under the desks in fear of the bomb! Like what good was that? Remember fallout shelters etc. Well we (the United States) cannot even interpret Arabic or Lebanese so how the hell do you think we really even know what is going on in this world? Don’t bomb the poppy fields in Afghanistan because they need to make a living..take one of the suitcases full of money that we have thrown around in Iraq and give the growers some cash..they don’t make the big money..Bomb those fields they are killing the minds, brains and families of America. Hysterics have never gotten us anywhere “Don’t let the terrorists stop you from living your lives go on as usual” Well terror is everywhere and it’s here so the United States has no control over anything. Washington as well as state and local politicians are as corrupt as all hell and these are the people speaking for us. I will never understand why Washington believes the AMERICANS are so dumb! And then the world power, as we like to call ourselves gives out the death penalty to our citizens. Does anyone think spending the rest of your life in prison is a walk in the park? You fear for your life people kill you and rape you. Washington is out of control..make laws to screw the average American meanwhile they are out there getting whatever they can. I liken a regular hardworking American to the gambling casinos The “HIGH” Rollers get everything handed to them on a silver platter..but it is the regular run of the mill American slipping their nickels and dimes in the slot machines that keep them in business..It’s not the rich keeping America going for they know every loop hole and perk and we little hardworking Americans are the ones paying through the nose so everyone else can live as millionaires.
Anyway just listen to Bob Dylan for all his words are about what is going on here today. Mastwers of War and all the rest
Civil Rights, my foot!
God bless America!

Posted by: Dylanesque at September 24, 2006 6:26 PM
Comment #183676

Dylanesque,

“The more things change, the more they stay the same.”

Posted by: Ray Guest at September 24, 2006 7:17 PM
Comment #183694

Ray, you and I generally have about the same disposition regarding politics, but I’m disappointed right now. Did you expect any different? Quote one strong Democratic statement in the past 30 days.

The only Democrat that’s shown he has any balls at all lately is former President Clinton. I’m tired of being led by a bunch of pussies. It’s time to demand more from our Democratic leadership.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at September 24, 2006 9:48 PM
Comment #183702

Jim T claims
“Well, I can say with full confidence, that I have NEVER blown up innocent men, women and babies…AND I have never associated with people who do.

Therefore, I can say without hesitation that I will NEVER have my gonads hooked up to a wall socket.

And that makes your assertion invalid.

However, if I WERE one of those terrorists, I would consider torture as a “part of the job” and to be expected.


Jim — our protest is entirely the point
The fact that you havn’t done any terrorism, nor associtated with terrorists (by the way, how do you know, do they have labels on their forehead??)
would not in any way protect you from this adminstration
Look at the Innocent Canadian who was sent off to Syria for torture —
Your stupid, ignorant belief that only the guilty are detained, tortured and killed is beyond belief.
THE WHOLE POINT IS THAT THE PEOPLE BEING TORTURED (FOR THE MOST PART) ARE NOT, REPEAT NOT GUILTY OF ANYTHING EXCEPT BEING MIDDLE-EASTERN.
How many people have been released from Gitmo cause they were “mistakenly” detained — Oops, only took 3 years to figure it out.
The British citizens that were returned to England to stay in detention — (after 3 years in Gitmo) — one slight problem, it took the British officials 15 minutes to figure out they were innocent of ANYTHING and released them.
Let’s see, the British can do in 15 minutes what our “finest intelligence service” couldn’t do in 3 years — Yea, torture is really effective.

Posted by: russ at September 24, 2006 10:56 PM
Comment #183703

Newsflash
You guys who support torture should listen to Bill Clinton (I know the devil incarnate, and you are unable to listen because at the mere mention of his name you cover your ears and go “lalalalalalalalalal I can’t HEAR youuuuuuuu”
good 3 strategy for a 3 year old) — anywho
He takes your “what if” scenario and notes that it is NOT justification for “blanket approval” of torture. He proposes (good idea!!) that the law could be written to give the President the ability to use “alternate Interogation methods” under specific circumstances (Bomb to go off at SuperBowl and we have in captivity the #2 guy that knows all about it — sort of thing)
The president would have to present the case to the secret court, but could do it after the fact, — same as the current wire tapping (that he is doing illegally because he never does go to the court)
SOOO — Your covered for the “what if” case, but we do NOT allow the EXTREMELY REMOTE case represented by the WHAT IF to set policy that would be used on a day-by-day basis on normal, most likely INNOCENT SUSPECTS (not GUILTY — just SUSPECTS)
You guys that have never been wrongly accused slay me cause you think this could never happen to you —
WAKE UP
The more you allow this idiot to erode YOUR RIGHTS and Protections, the MORE LIKELY it is that YOU will become familiar with the “alternate interrogation” techniques.
So get your gonads prepared baby!!
Just think
Without the protections, if you are wrongly accused you get NO CHANCE to explain yourself, and why what they think is suspicious is just something innocent — You will be in one of the CIA secret prisons faster than you can say “Mighty Bush can walk on water”

Posted by: Russ at September 24, 2006 11:04 PM
Comment #183704

Somebody brought up the point, but I have been waiting along time to make it as well

WE HAD ALL THE INTELLIGENCE (INFORMATION, NOT WISEDOM) TO STOP 9/11 AND WE OBTAINED IT WITHOUT ONCE OUNCE OF TORTURE.
IT WAS OBTAINED BY GOOD OLD DECTIVE WORK AND OBSERVATION — STANDARD SPYING, ETC.
NO TORTURE, NO TORTURE WAS USED IN THE MAKING OF THE CLASSIC BOOK “AL-QUEDA PLANS TO ATTACK THE US” (OR WHATEVER THE ACTUAL TITLE WAS EVERYONE KNOWS IT BY NOW)
IF WE WERE ABLE TO OBTAIN THE NECESSARY INFORMATION TO STOP THE BIGGEST ATTACK ON OUR SOIL WITHOUT REDUCING OURSELVES TO THE USE OF TORTURE, HAVE WE REGRESSED SO FAR ( OR HAVE BECOME SO STUPID AND INCOMPETENT) AS TO HAVE TO RESORT TO METHODS THAT THE PROFESSIONAL INTERROGATORS SAY DO NOT WORK??????

YOUR ABSOLUTE OBSESSION WITH TORTURE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OBTAINING INFORMATION, OR SECURING THIS NATION AND IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH SOME NEANDERTHAL MENTALITY OF ???? NOT SURE WHAT, IT IS DEFINATELY NOT EVEN RISEN TO THE LEVEL OF REVENGE —.

Posted by: Russ at September 24, 2006 11:13 PM
Comment #183707

Jim T
You stated
“We had tortured someone and 9/11 never happened?”

I am glad you said that, because YOU just exposed YOUR ignorance of what led up to 9/11 and how WE BLEW IT
We had ALL the info we NEEDED to observe, and perhaps interdict the 9/11 plot and we got ALL THAT infor WITHOUT TORTURE!!!
So you see, in that case the What if is
“What if the Bush Administration had been smart enough to utilize the accurate intelligence obtained during the Clinton Administration and had actually taken action instead of going on Vacation in Crawford Texas”?????
(no Torture required, except for the torture of watching this incompetent, inarticulate, idiot of a president “represent” the U.S. — makes me want to VOMIT!!)

Posted by: Russ at September 24, 2006 11:21 PM
Comment #183709

Kansas Dem,

I hear your pain. I am deathly afraid that we are going to lose you to the Naderites. I might not be far behind.

Russ,

You wrote:

So get your gonads prepared baby!!

That does it! I am getting castrated tomorrow. Sex change - here I come… …because… you know they will take us before they take Jim T. Unless… Hillary is the first Emperor to abuse the unchecked power in that way… She likes us. So maybe it will be us attaching the electrodes to Jim. Gotta get a job someplace. Torture is the new growth industry in America. Go where the money goes…

Posted by: Ray Guest at September 25, 2006 12:14 AM
Comment #183712

G.W.Bush is the worst president this country has ever had!! A while ago, a female Palistinian suicide bomber’s suicide note said that she wanted to knock on the gates of heaven with the skulls of Jews and infidels. And she felt she would be rewarded.I think when G.W’s time comes he is going to have one huge sack of skulls to knock on the gates of heaven with. It is only getting worst in Iraq, more people dying every day, more skulls for G.W’s sack. We blew up there country, factories, neighborhoods, schools,ect. and we’re suposed to feel good when Halliburten or a subsidy rebuilds at 10 times or more what it would cost to built over here. I like to tell people who are George Bush fans,”hey, when your time comes, and your standing in front of Saint Peter, just tell him you want to go George W. Bush is going”.

Posted by: Allen at September 25, 2006 12:34 AM
Comment #183714

Allen,

I want to go where George goes. He is a party animal - good drugs. Those real Christians are boring. No drugs - no deviant sex. Who wants to go with them. Besides George is going to enjoy hell. He is creating it on earth and seems to like it here. I haven’t said the anti-Christ word lately - but he is creating the preconditions for Armageddon. My luck will be that I will get to go to hell with him - but he will rule in hell - and I will be in the same place I am now - hell.

Posted by: Ray Guest at September 25, 2006 12:45 AM
Comment #183735

Ray, try to refrain from posting a comment when your intoxicated, your really not helping our cause.

Posted by: Allen at September 25, 2006 10:02 AM
Comment #183736

Jim T,

Dear President Bush:

Finally!

Somebody who will do what it takes to stop Americans from being killed in bars (1970’s), airports (thank you Carlos the Jackal), airplanes (2006) and skyscrapers (9/11).

Yeah, the French, afterall, do hunted and captured this terrorist leader. Without violating Geneva Convention or Human Rights. How french could screw up everything!?!

Maybe, just maybe if someone somewhere had electrodes hooked up to their gonads, there would be a couple of innocent people alive today.

Maybe, just maybe there would be a couple of innocent gonads electrocuted today.

And, by the way, “moral high ground” be DAMNED! If history has taught us one thing, it is that taking the moral high ground has only gotten thousands of innocent people killed by incompetant inaction.

Just as taking no moral high ground has gotten thousands of innoncent people killed by action. You see, bullets and bombs don’t care about morality. Only the man triggering them should, IMHO.
But don’t worry, US moral high ground is, indeed, already damned, no doubt about that. Check international newspapers.

So if burning out someone’s brains with psychotic episode inducing drugs…if hanging them upside down and beating them with baseball bats…if applying water torture or whatever means you deem necessary to apply to get information that will save American lives…then DO IT!!!

No thanks. *You*, do it. Every american should help. Afterall, why only your favorite president should have blood (or electric wires for that matter) on his hands. Be my guest, join the club.

Oh, and don’t forget to prove - I said prove, not forge - it actually saved americans lives.

And another thing…thank you for keeping us safe in American for the past 5 years. No one here in this column has the decency to say that, so I will.

Yeah. A very big thanks for keeping americans safe everyday since 6 years… but the 9/11/2001.
And an equal big thanks to previous presidents, whatever political side, for these unnumbered past years for keeping safe americans too.

Bushies, compassionnate torturers. Let’s allow torture to feel safer!? So why don’t you feel safer after 5 years of these?!

What happened to americans????

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at September 25, 2006 10:07 AM
Comment #183738

Jim T,

“You wouldn’t say that if it happened to you”.

Well, I can say with full confidence, that I have NEVER blown up innocent men, women and babies…AND I have never associated with people who do.

How many will you bet that every detainees US “interrogates” said exactly the same!?
How could I know for sure you’re not associated with terrorists, afterall? We don’t know you. Just on your own claim!? That’s not a proof. Plus we’re absolutly sure you’re a terrorist or at best associated with them. You know too much about terrorism and torture to be innocent.

Maybe under our strong but classified interrogation technics you will finally tell us the truth we want about your terrorist links…

Therefore, I can say without hesitation that I will NEVER have my gonads hooked up to a wall socket.

Prove it.
I could prove mathematically that the propability is NOT zero, sorry. Sure, it’s very very thin, but still, the probablity exists. And legitimate torture increase, even if it’s by a very very small amount, not decrease it.

However, if I WERE one of those terrorists,

Stop denying you’re NOT a terrorist, because we know you’re. Don’t worry, you will soon tell us everything we want to hear from you. Believe it.

I would consider torture as a “part of the job” and to be expected.

Oh, so you’re just giving them what they expects? They’re asking for it, right? Who cares if they’re not terrorists after all, we know better. And what we don’t know we will learn from them, thanks to torture.
The sad part in such immoral logic is, indeed, genuine terrorists are trained to be tortured. Which means they’re trained to suffer and to give false intelligence to please their tortures. If McCain could with vietcongs, why terrorists can’t?

Meanwhile, innocent/non-terrorists detainees are tortured too, without being trained to nor they deserves it and the intelligence gathering from them is of no value. And counter-productive because someone(s) have to check them too.

Nice way, Tim, to prove torture doesn’t work that great against terrorism. Just because real terrorists don’t mind suffering that much. Remember, most of them seek martyrdom.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at September 25, 2006 10:40 AM
Comment #183739
… to please their tortures

Should be read (and written) :
“to please their torturers”.

Also, I’ve mixed up “Jim T” with “Tim” at the end. Sorry for both Tim and Jim.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at September 25, 2006 10:46 AM
Comment #183745

Allen,

I am sane and sober - now.

Philippe Houdine,

Thanks for the comments.

You wrote:

Oh, so you’re just giving them what they expects? They’re asking for it, right?
Good point here. It uncovers the authoritarian mind set of the neocons. It is a lot like rape. Oh, she said no and fought me, but I know she really wanted it. She was asking for it. The dirty blank blank got what she deserved. The same type of sick mindset is used to defend the “need” (read compulsion) to torture. They don’t believe in a woman’s “right to choose” what happens to her body. I understand and respect the deep personal spiritual values and beliefs that drive the “right to life” movement. But they are personal values and beliefs. And right or wrong, the refusal to allow a women to control her own body is symbolic rape. There seems to be a theme here. The neocons are driven by a false sense of power. I won’t expand that idea here. I wrote an entire article about that titled: The Unstated Truth - False Power - and “My Pet Goat”

I think that you are right, Jim T. is clearly a terrorist. Somebody needs to call the NSA and rat him out. Just look at his message. It is obvious. Everybody knows that the terrorist love George Bush. Every time Bush gets in trouble, Osama helps him out. 9/11 made George Bush a President in the naive eyes of the American people and helped the Repubs in 2002. Just before the last Presidential election another tape the reinforced Bush as Commander in Chief in the naive eyes of the American people and no doubt got Bush reelected. Then another tape was released coincidentally January 19, 2006, nine days after illegal wiretapping was revealed, diverting attention and headlines. In May it is revealed that they are collecting phone records on all Americans - Osama another tape - divert attention with the bogeyman. June 27, Chuck Hegel attacks Bush on the Iraq war - June 30, Osama Bogeyman appears. September Bush goes on the offense to remind people of his proudest moment (reading “My Pet Goat” while America burned) - Osama lends a hand - another tape. Now just before this election Osama dies - or pretends to die Hmm… Clearly Osama is supporting Bush. Jim T. supports Bush. Everybody knows the NSA is wasting its time spying on Dems, if you are a terrorist, where better to hide then among Repubs. You can support the people that support you and the NSA will never look there. It can’t be. Jim T. is not a terrorist. I know him. He is my buddy. I will vouch for him. Get those dag-gone electrodes off his gonads. That was close Jim. Maybe you better let me cut those things off - just to be safe.

Posted by: Ray Guest at September 25, 2006 11:54 AM
Comment #183840

Ray,
No, leave them on…I think Jim likes it. After all, he is a “terroriest”, and they are trained to actually enjoy that sort of thing. :-)

Posted by: PlayNice at September 25, 2006 10:40 PM
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