Democrats & Liberals Archives

Iraq-Countdown for Iran

For many months before the black day, Bush led us into the Iraq fiasco by interpreting every single incident, every single Iraq statement, every single UN inspector statement, every single scrap of intelligence in the worst possible light. War….war….war was the sole solution. All the steps he followed then he is following now. Bush is relentlessly applying the Iraq-countdown to Iran.

In 2003, all of us were still in shock about 9/11. And our dear leader took advantage of the situation to scare us further. Some of us felt that Hussein was being contained, and that we needed to complete the inspections before even considering such a drastic step as war. The administration brushed it all aside. They told us that Hussein was an imminent threat, that we could not rely on the inspectors. They did not depend on the intelligence agency, but came up with their own more scary interpretations. Even while discussions were going on in the UN, Bush was preparing for war.

The Iraq War is the worst thing that has happened to the U.S. since it was born. It has brought us nothing but heartaches and headaches. Our people are dying and being maimed. Iraqis are dying in sectarian warfare that the administration is afraid to call a civil war. Terrorists are multiplying around the world because of our stupid adventure.

And now we have this problem that Iran wants to build nuclear weapons. As before, the Bush administration daily orders the Iranians to desist. Then it says, See Iran does not stop, so it must be stopped. Iran sends letters, and nobody answers. Negotiations drag on between Europe and Iran, and America ridicules them. Eventually, America "joins" the negotiations, which after awhile, leads to a take-it-or-leave-it statement: If you stop enrichment, then we'll talk. In other words, give up your main chip and then we'll negotiate.

After a long time, Iranians finally say they are ready to negotiate. Bush continues with his cowboy talk. He does not understand the horrible situation he has placed us in:

Iran's influence in Iraq has superseded that of the US, and it is increasingly rivalling the US as the main actor at the crossroads between the Middle East and Asia. Its role within other war- torn areas such as Afghanistan and southern Lebanon has now increased hugely. This is compounded by the failure of the US and its allies to appreciate the extent of Iran’s regional relationships and standing - a dynamic which is the key to understanding Iran’s newly found confidence and belligerence towards the West. As a result, the US-driven agenda for confronting Iran is severely compromised by the confident ease with which Iran sits in its region. ...

Such a situation cries for negotiation.

As part of the countdown toward war with Iran, the House Intelligence committee issued a new report, upon which the New York Times editorialized with the label, "Wanted: Scarier Intelligence." Here is some of it:

[The report] is partly a campaign document, a product of the Republican strategy of scaring Americans into allowing the G.O.P. to retain control of Congress this fall. ....

But even more worrisome, the report seems intended to signal the intelligence community that the Republican leadership wants scarier assessments that would justify a more confrontational approach to Tehran. ...

Same old tricks. There's one big difference today. The American public is onto Republican tricks. Republicans think that by scaring us to death we'll vote for Republicans this November to keep us secure. The great mess Republicans made in Iraq guarantees they will not be able to gain our confidence again.

Unfortunately, it looks as though Republicans will maintain their Iraq-countdown at least until Election Day. They may even continue the countdown after Election Day unless enough of them are thrown out of office. So, if you want to stop the Iraq-countdown for Iran, kick out Republican incumbents.

Posted by Paul Siegel at August 25, 2006 6:38 PM
Comments
Comment #177471

I foresee a “nucular” Iran in the not so distant future. I’m always wondering these days what the political landscape would look like in the middle east had we not gone into Iraq.

I’ve noticed in the past few weeks that the tone has begun to change in the media. It has suddenly become in vogue to critisize politicians. People like Matthews on Hardball are really getting into the idea of asking hard questions and forcing answers instead of talking points. I’m loving politics again.

Bush’s legacy will be two things:

1. Absolutely devestating our international reputation and ability to look at all like a neutral party in ANY conflict. You know, the good v. evil thing.

2. Polorizing the democratic party and forcing it to become a party of strong minded and forceful personalities. Democrats are really starting to sound like they have something to say. Honestly, it is the constant biting of the tongue that turned everyone AWAY from Kerry. Screw being everything to everybody. Be tough, have conviction, and have some personality. THIS is how elections are won.

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 25, 2006 7:13 PM
Comment #177473

Appreciate your post Paul, would you agree that rather than stampeed into Iran, the administration is working more diligently to build coalition, to obtain internation support, even us the U.N., in essense to use the system? Something they were criticized for before.

I agree the situation begs negotiation, and the Administration has taken a position (typical of a negotiation eh?) and we are waiting to see what the counter is.

I believe that the Administration stayed out of early talks not because we were trying to be arrogant, but because we had damaged our reputation to the point where our friends said “Let us give it a try first so you don’t mess it up.”

I don’t see the balance here in your approach to Iran and Iraq. I see the administration doing a majority of those things they were criticized for prior to recent events with Iran & North Korea. So to start my weekend off with a smile, educate me. Thanks.

Posted by: Edge at August 25, 2006 7:19 PM
Comment #177474

You are so lucky GWB is president. You are fortunate enough to live in this country. You can talk trash all you want about GWB but know than when you do you are insulting my country.Saddam Hussein defied all the UN Sactions repeatedly. Action had to be taken. Some one had to stand up to the tyrant. You should be proud your country had the fortitude. Our country must use any force necessary to protect her self. Its our governments job to secure the country from outside attacks. Which we obviously have not been hence 9/11. After 9/11 the world as we knew it was over. On 9/12 we were all ready for anything but nothing has happened in 5 years. We went to Iraq to remove Saddam Hussein and his known wmds. We may not have found a treasures trove that so many expected but we are there and to pull out is failure. If we fail we are weak and will be targeted for the rest of our lives. You may be ok with that but I certainly am not.

Posted by: Rowan at August 25, 2006 7:20 PM
Comment #177476

Kool-aide anyone?

Posted by: Rocky at August 25, 2006 7:27 PM
Comment #177477

Rowan-

So you advocate military intervention for the dozen or so other nations who are in similar dire straights with their dictators?

I’m just curious…do you have ANY evidence to support ANYTHING you just said? Sounded like 3 year old garbage talking points to me. Everything you said has been discredited except that Saddam did violate the UN resolutions. So you are also a fervent believer in the UN and their process for dealing with a crisis, then? What of the number of other defied resolutions? What of all the other genocides? What of all the LEGITIMATE nuclear ambitions? What of our own security at home?

Jesus man, what world do you live in that you actually believe that crap you just spewed?

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 25, 2006 7:30 PM
Comment #177478

My personal favorite:

“You can talk trash all you want about GWB but know than when you do you are insulting my country.”

Really? I thought I was trying to make it better just like the founding fathers explicitly called upon Americans to do when they created this constitutional democracy. Remember? Citizens were supposed to be actively involved in government, not oppressed by it. That was the WHOLE POINT.

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 25, 2006 7:35 PM
Comment #177479

Rowan - Advice. George Bush is your president, not your country. What you say can be taken as being very patriotic, but your willingness to equate criticism of GWB to criticism of America is nothing but frightening.

Posted by: DOC at August 25, 2006 7:37 PM
Comment #177480


Paul,

How about giving us your definition of negotiation. To some of us poor, ignorant folks out here, negotiation means: “You tell me your position, I’ll tell you mine, and then we will discuss our differences with the aim of coming to a compromise that does not violate either side’s basic belief structure.” Is that what you mean?

Also, if this Iran-Iraq-Middle East thing has caused the Democratic Party to find the fortitude to actually stand up and say: “This we believe”, then it hasn’t been a complete waste, just mostly. If the Democrats are actually going to stand up and offer solid positions on the important subjects of this time in history, and stay with them until events dictate change, that will be such a change that they might actually have a chance to gain seats. However, I won’t hold my breath. Of course, the same goes for the other side. A pox on both your houses!!

Posted by: John Back at August 25, 2006 7:39 PM
Comment #177481

I apologize for my infantile talking points but in order for you to understand I figured I’d dumb it down some.

Posted by: Rowan at August 25, 2006 7:41 PM
Comment #177483

“I apologize for my infantile talking points but in order for you to understand I figured I’d dumb it down some.”

Glad you agree because what you said couldn’t get much dumber.

How about indulging us with what your talking points sound like when they are based on something that even remotely resembles facts.

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 25, 2006 7:44 PM
Comment #177484

Or, Rowan, you could start by answering any of my many questions which directly follow from your logic.

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 25, 2006 7:46 PM
Comment #177486

Doc…I try to veiw my country through the worlds eye. The US is George W Bush in other nations minds. Whether I like it or not he represents us. To tear him down here is enabling the rest of the world to do the same.

Posted by: Rowan at August 25, 2006 7:51 PM
Comment #177488

Take the longer view. History will only remember GWB = Iraq, the fiasco. W will go to sleep everynight with the realization that all he did in eight years is Iraq. Nice legacy. Thousands of lives and billions of dollars.

Posted by: mysteriomag at August 25, 2006 8:12 PM
Comment #177490

Rowan

Because of what has happened in Iraq, we are going to be targeted the rest of our lives. I hope not the rest of my children’s lives as well.
The propagation and growing of terrorists and terrorism could hardly have been helped along any better than by the fiasco in Iraq. Are we going to increase the breeding grounds by entering into a war with Iran also?

Posted by: mark at August 25, 2006 8:46 PM
Comment #177491

Hey Rowan give your head a shake your eye balls are stuck.In case you haven’t heard yet there were no WMD’s,no mobile chemicle trucks,no yellow cake,no ties to OSAMA.no link to terrorism,need I go on.How wrong does somone have to be before he gets fitted for a dunce cap?Would you really want to give up your right to critisize this administration just so the rest of the world won’t see him for the fool he is.Suprise!!!! We all figured it out years ago.

Posted by: FRANKO at August 25, 2006 9:01 PM
Comment #177493

Paul I will give you W and his administration have been the worst since the birth of this nation, but it is premature to say Iraq is the worst thing that has ever happened to this country. The civil war, the great depression to name a couple were worse than IRAQ so fsr.

Posted by: j2t2 at August 25, 2006 9:04 PM
Comment #177498

j2t2 Don’t forget 9/11

Posted by: Brian B at August 25, 2006 9:21 PM
Comment #177502

j2t2

You’re right. It is premature to say the fiasco in Iraq is the worst thing to ever happen to this country. The fiasco in Iraq if combined with a fiasco in Iran(as it surely will be with Bush $ Co. making the plans) will be much worse.

Posted by: mark at August 25, 2006 10:05 PM
Comment #177508

I understand all the reasons why we should not have gone to war. Do you understand that we need to be sucessful in Iraq? 9/11 happened before we entered Iraq we were already targets. If we pull out of Iraq without stability it will be that defeat that is left to our children

Posted by: Rowan at August 25, 2006 10:49 PM
Comment #177511

Rowan,

I understand all the reasons why we should not have gone to war. Do you understand that we need to be sucessful in Iraq? 9/11 happened before we entered Iraq we were already targets. If we pull out of Iraq without stability it will be that defeat that is left to our children

Wow… I think I can actually agree with that!

Invading Iraq was a horrible idea. But leaving Iraq in a shambles is even more horrible. We have a responsibility to fix what we broke. If we leave a power vacuum in Iraq, things over there are just going to get worse. We brought OUR war (with Al Queda) down on the people of Iraq, who now have to live through that war on a daily basis. Until the government of Iraq tells us to leave, we need to stick around. After what we’ve done, we don’t have the right to cut-n-run.

But let’s get back to the topic of Iran for a moment. When we invaded Iraq, we essentially forgot about Afghanistan. If we invade Iran, we’ll likely forget about Iraq. The worst thing we could do for the stability of Iraq is to leave to go invade their neighbor.

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at August 25, 2006 11:05 PM
Comment #177526

I just don’t see this country getting behind an invasion of Iran. Bombing, yeah; we’ve been conditioned to that. What a freakin’ mess.

Posted by: Trent at August 26, 2006 12:17 AM
Comment #177528

Rocky:
“Kool-aide anyone?”

Whoa. Scary. And not just a cup, we’re talking a whole rampaging pitcher!

Rob:
“If we invade Iran, we’ll likely forget about Iraq. The worst thing we could do for the stability of Iraq is to leave to go invade their neighbor.”

Jeeze, aren’t two floundering, poorly executed wars on Bush’s watch enough for America? Does there have to be a third?
[Sigh] I can’t believe anyone is seriously considering this a good idea. Here’s a couple things to consider:
First, we can’t invade Iran without a draft — that’s a given, right? Secondly, where is all the money for an Iran invasion supposed to come from? Our great grandkids?

As far as the stability of Iraq goes, I don’t think we’re going to be the ones to bring it to the country. Maybe after their civil war there will be a chance for us to help — and maybe a change of president will vastly improve the relationship.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 26, 2006 12:28 AM
Comment #177537

You keep acting like we will save the world - or even have the chance? Our GWB is advancing consumerizm with the idea that because we enslave others economys we are doing a good thing! I understand why the 3rd world is willing to die to stop us don’t you?

Posted by: Mike at August 26, 2006 1:15 AM
Comment #177539

Iran has laughed in the worlds face. The world has said stop uranium enrichment not just the US. I don’t doubt we will be the ones to stand toe to toe with Iran. Only the West seems to stand against the terrorist regimes. Whether it be greed or fear no other nations appear to have the will.

Posted by: Rowan at August 26, 2006 1:38 AM
Comment #177540

No Mike I dont

Posted by: Rowan at August 26, 2006 1:42 AM
Comment #177548
I understand all the reasons why we should not have gone to war. Do you understand that we need to be sucessful in Iraq? 9/11 happened before we entered Iraq we were already targets. If we pull out of Iraq without stability it will be that defeat that is left to our children
what a crock. You must have the nicest garden on the block.

In the idiotic speech that piece of shit gave the other day (if insulting the president is insulting the country in your eyes so be it), he acknowledged that the situation in Iraq is bad now and asked us to imagine what it would be like if we left before their government was able to defend itself. Well, buddy I HAVE imagined it and the only thing I see different is Americans coming home alive and in one piece.

For obvious reasons, war-mongering conservatives refuse to acknowledge the similarities between this fiasco and one we had in Viet Nam. Perhaps you’re too young to remember that war. We didn’t invade N. Viet Nam. Our only goal was to establish a government in S. Viet Nam that could defend itself. What YOU don’t seem to understand is that, like Viet Nam, the insurgents WILL NEVER STOP resisting our presence there.

You say Iraq will become a safe haven for terrorists if we leave. You mean ANOTHER safe haven for terrorists, don’t you? Added to Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebonan, Iran, Pakistan…

What needed to happen in Iraq, many years ago, was that the Iraqis who WANTED freedom should have stood up and taken down Saddam in a revolution just like most successful democracies have done. But evidently they didn’t want it badly enough to go up against Saddam. Well, we’ve removed Saddam from the picture, so it’s their time to have their Civil War.

Things will NEVER get better in Iraq until we let them sort it out themselves. And I’ll let you in on a little secret… THAT’S ALL THEY REALLY WANT ANYWAY!!!

Posted by: Thom Houts at August 26, 2006 4:25 AM
Comment #177551

Many members of the Democratic Party and the GOP Republic Party believe that we should have gone to war with Iraq based on the information filtered through this Bush Republic Administration. I never believed it! We didn’t wait for the Hans Blix search for weapons of mass destruction effort to be completed.
I knew it was a ‘done deal’ when Colin Powell stood before the United Nations with a pointer and showed yellow lines indicating vehicles entering and leaving a warehouse area. Colin Powell said that the vehicles were delivering and moving weapons of mass distruction. This exact scenario is played outside many major cities in the world.
The vehicles are delivering perishable foods and are delivered from farms., etc., and picked up by trucks driven by venders.
That’s when I knew the war against Iraq was a hoax.

Posted by: John at August 26, 2006 5:52 AM
Comment #177552

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Posted by: Kevin Collier at August 26, 2006 6:49 AM
Comment #177556

Iraq-
We have former Iraqi generals admitting that WMDs were flown into Syria. WMDs have recently been forund in Iraq. Intelligence from Britain, France, Germany, and Russia agreed with US intelligence before the war. The UN knew about the weapons, but would do nothing. The Oil for Food program made sure of that. The US was the only country that would do something.
Libs say they are compassionate, but they would rather have Saddam’s torture and rape rooms than a chance at freedom for these people.
Iran-
Ahmadenijhad is glad we took out Hussein. He was a big threat in the middle east. Hussein was looking to take over neighboring countries on his way to war with Iran. Iran has been quiet with the US sitting on its doorstep, but with intl. politics the way they are now, Iran feels freer to bluster about its own WMDs. The US is negotiating because it does not want to go to war with Iran, but it will probably have to.
Terrorism-
We can no longer ignore terrorism. The US has dropped the roach-bomb in the basement and now all the roaches are out. Just because we see more terrorists out there, doesnt mean there are more terrorists. They are now out where we can see them and it is time to stamp themp out.
Negotiations-
US-“Okay Iran, tell us what you want.”
Iran-“We want you dead.”
Lets see if we can reach a compromise. Maybe if we help you kill all the jews, you can let us live. At least until the next negotiations. Diplomatic relations with these countries is not possible unless you have the might and the will to back it up.

Posted by: JoeRWC at August 26, 2006 7:11 AM
Comment #177558

Regarding Iraq,

If our goal is to give the Iraqi’s self-governance and control of their own country, then doesn’t that mean that we must also allow them to behave in whatever manner they see fit? Isn’t that the very definition of sovereignty and freedom? By preventing them from doing what they would like to do within their country (barring genocide), even if that action is a civil war, aren’t we then just replacement rulers who are stopping the very essence of Democracy from flourishing?

You cannot give a group of people freedom and the ability to rule themselves and then demand what they do with it.

Imagine what our country would be like if our own civil war had been prevented (imagine our response to any outsider who would have tried to stop it as well); tragic as that period was in our history, it did help to shape us as a nation; without it, we would not be what we are today.

Posted by: Liberal Demon at August 26, 2006 7:28 AM
Comment #177559

You lost me at imminent. Read the speaches again…

Posted by: RCGLAD at August 26, 2006 7:39 AM
Comment #177560

“We have former Iraqi generals admitting that WMDs were flown into Syria.”

Oh, but you gorgot to mention that the Iraqi people giving us that intel on WMDs are also the ones who are now in power. Also, we all know the “WMDs” that were found were found were probably lost in the early 80s. As far as the Syria idea goes - sounds like an impossible consipracy thing (or absolute incompetence by the Bush Administration) - take your pick.

“We can no longer ignore terrorism. “

I agree that terrorism has been ignored for the past 3+ years while Bush was distracted in Iraq… so yes, maybe someone should start working on that. (The recent arrested by the British were terrorists using 10+ year old plans… and again, Bush is acting totally surprised.)

“Diplomatic relations with these countries is not possible unless you have the might and the will to back it up.”

… and the Camp David Accords (1978)???

Posted by: tony at August 26, 2006 7:43 AM
Comment #177561

“Oh, but you gorgot”

Sorry, that should read “forgot”…

Posted by: tony at August 26, 2006 7:46 AM
Comment #177562

Sorry Paul, this thread was originally about Iran, but I saw everyone talking about Iraq so I just wrote about that instead.

Regarding Iran,

Imaging for a moment that someone you know went and called you and two other people you know ‘evil.’ Mostly you would just laugh it off and ignore it. Now, imagine that one of those people ended up dead the next day and you were certain that the person responsible was the person who called you ‘evil’ as well. What would you do? Arm yourself, probably, take precautions.

This is exactly what happened, on a grander scale, when Bush lumped together Iraq, Iran and North Korea into the ‘Axis of Evil’ and then invaded one of them. Of course the other two are going to think that they are next, and will respond. Look at the world stage right now, and you will see that that is exactly what they are doing, the only sure-fire way they can: by obtaining nuclear weapons as quickly as possible. Yes, they were trying to before as well, but to create urgency on their part in such a situation is simply unforgivable.

No one is calling for the invasion of North Korea for the simple reason that they have these weapons, Iran sees this. In this day and age, unfortunately, the only way to guarantee lasting sovereignty is to go nuclear.

Gotta just love the way the current administration creates horrible, untenable and mostly incurable situations and problems. Gotta love it even more when they then accuse the other side of not being able to fix the mess (that no one can really fix) they created and use that as a reason to get people to keep them in power. Oops, started talking about Iraq again…

Posted by: Liberal Demon at August 26, 2006 7:47 AM
Comment #177563

“We have former Iraqi generals admitting that WMDs were flown into Syria. WMDs have recently been forund in Iraq. Intelligence from Britain, France, Germany, and Russia agreed with US intelligence before the war.”
BALD FACED LIES and I challenge you to link the proof.
Flown into Syria? Through the NO FLY ZONE? Who you tryin’ to kid?
WMDs found in Iraq? I think you forget what WMD stands for. WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION. The miniscule quantities of chemical weaponry that we sold to Saddam in the ’80s and found after the invasion could not in any way, shape or form be considered WEAPONS OF MASS DISTRUCTION… the experts said that exposure to the chemical weapons MAY have caused death or injury to anyone who came in contact with it… but probably not and certainly not on a MASS scale. As for the ‘intelligence’ of the Brits, French, Germans, and Russians one must consider the source… after all, the only place THEY get information is from US!!!
Sometimes I think lying comes to naturally to conservatives, they don’t even know they’re doing it.

Posted by: Thom Houts at August 26, 2006 7:49 AM
Comment #177564

The neo-libs want to have their own Vietnam. The war is not similar to Nam. Even if libs try to use the nam playbook, the wars are different. The libs want us to cut and run. They want us to leave govt personnel behind so that the democracy will crumble and we will have to chopper americans out of the embassy. That way, they can tell us they were right.

Posted by: JoeRWC at August 26, 2006 7:52 AM
Comment #177565

About Bush icompetence-
WMDs were flown to Syria in the months preceding the war while Kofi was still in charge and collecting bribes in Oil for Food.
About Cons. lies-
I get my info from the mainstream media.
About 1978 Camp David Accords-
What a great success! Jimmy really fixed it for us. There has not been a ME country to attack us or go back on their word since.
About the Axis of Evil-
Evil is as evil does.

Posted by: JoeRWC at August 26, 2006 8:05 AM
Comment #177567

Guess I have to say one more thing now.

Regarding weapons being flown out of a country in preparation for an impending invasion. Do I really need to say more than that sentence? Do I? Really? [Sigh]

Posted by: Liberal Demon at August 26, 2006 8:12 AM
Comment #177568

“Aaaarrgghh!! Sweden’s invading the United States! Quick, move all the weapons to Canada! Hurry people, we don’t have much time!”

Posted by: Liberal Demon at August 26, 2006 8:20 AM
Comment #177569

JoeRWC -

Not much to say… until you actually try to prove ANYTHING you’ve stated. As far as I can tell, it’s all delusional lies to help cope with the complete and utter failure of this Administration and this Iraqi war.

And that leads us back to Iran. My hunch is that Iran will become a Nuclear Power within 2 years, and this Administration has absolutely no skills to prevent this.

Posted by: tony at August 26, 2006 8:24 AM
Comment #177570

Liberal Demon-
Not sure what you are talking about. Need more input.
tony-
I agree that Iran will have nukes soon. Bush may not have the skills to bring countries that have their thumb in the pie,such as Oil for Food, into helping us. Dont agree about complete and utter failure, though.

Posted by: JoeRWC at August 26, 2006 8:36 AM
Comment #177572

Bush does not have the skills… period. He lacks the ability to see things from the other side’s perspective, and if you lack that, you lack the ability to find workable solutions.

Deplacy is not another form of bullying… it’s a form of collaboration. Both sides must be able to live with whatever solution is created - and that means we must also understand what is acceptable for them as well as ourselves. I have yet to see anything offered up from the US other than “STOP! Or else!”

That will never work, and we can not afford another military adventure.

Posted by: tony at August 26, 2006 8:59 AM
Comment #177573

I think its easy to see what the “other” perspective is. If I was evil, what would I want…
Destruction of Israel
Destruction of Middle East neighbors
Destruction of the US
Destruction of Europe
Destruction of Non Believers
And, oh yeah, 72 virgins
Now that we are done with this exercise, lets find a solution.
“STOP! Or else”

Posted by: JoeRWC at August 26, 2006 9:11 AM
Comment #177576

“If I was evil, what would I want…”

This is the Republican montra against anyone who does not beleive the way they do… even other Americans. As far as I can tell, they can only see the world in black & white - and they never bother to look up to see what color hat they are wearing.

Posted by: tony at August 26, 2006 9:25 AM
Comment #177577

tony-
You dont agree with me, so you must be evil. Black and white is the neo-lib montra. When somthing is obviously black, we need the whitest solution available. Thanks to the Dems, an eggshell color solution is the best we can do. Thanks for the laughs, evil tony.

Posted by: JoeRWC at August 26, 2006 9:32 AM
Comment #177578

“About Bush icompetence-
WMDs were flown to Syria in the months preceding the war while Kofi was still in charge and collecting bribes in Oil for Food.
About Cons. lies-
I get my info from the mainstream media.
About 1978 Camp David Accords-
What a great success! Jimmy really fixed it for us. There has not been a ME country to attack us or go back on their word since.
About the Axis of Evil-
Evil is as evil does.”

Sorry, but I could never top that…

Posted by: tony at August 26, 2006 9:43 AM
Comment #177587

The Iraq War is the worst thing that has happened to the U.S. since it was born.

That is one of the most unintelligent and childish statements I have ever seen. Yes Bush has made plenty of bad decisions in his term but he has also made alot of good ones as well, the problem with the “liberals” (if you want to call democrats liberal which they really do not portray at all) is that they have got to a point where they will not give Bush credit for anything and find anything he has done or in the process of doing as wrong……NEGOTIATE WITH IRAN???? are you out of your mind to think we can negotiate with people that hate democracy and say things like they want to wipe Israel off of the map….and now they are close to being a nuclear power….hmmm….how can they wipe Israel off the map….?

Our country is in a terrible state right now, it is extremely polarized and every issue falls to partisan agendas. I dont consider myself a democrat or a republican because the bickering back and forth based on political motives make me sick. You hear republicans calling democrats weak on war, you hear democrats say that Bush is now going to manipulate a war with Iran…………….These are the two statements that the parties are standing on right now and they are both erroneous and do not deserve any attention from anyone with political intelligence. The democrats are not weak on war, they just want a clear plan of what we are doing in Iraq and what we are going to do to get out of there., which is perfectly reasonable. The republicans are not manipulating a war with Iran, they do not have to do that, Iran will do that itself. They will not stop their program, they are going to call the West’s bluff and then what then? Can we allow a country with a leader that was once a top member of the student invasion of the US embassy in Tehran in the 70s be able to have nuclear power??? Can we allow a country that wants the world to be dominated by Islamist fundamentalism to become a rival to superpowers with their oil supplies and then now nuclear powers?

I do not know about you but Iran with nuclear weapons is a scary thought. And the fact that so many other countries feel the same way is a tell tale sign that Iran with nuclear weapons could spell disaster for the world as we know it. That is a fact no matter what political agenda you are on, whether your a republican looking to say the democrats are weak on war or if your a narrow minded Jon Stewart liberal that wants to tear this country in half and make republicans around the country look like monsters and idiots.

Posted by: Matt Quirin at August 26, 2006 11:45 AM
Comment #177588

The Iraq War is the worst thing that has happened to the U.S. since it was born.

That is one of the most unintelligent and childish statements I have ever seen. Yes Bush has made plenty of bad decisions in his term but he has also made alot of good ones as well, the problem with the “liberals” (if you want to call democrats liberal which they really do not portray at all) is that they have got to a point where they will not give Bush credit for anything and find anything he has done or in the process of doing as wrong……NEGOTIATE WITH IRAN???? are you out of your mind to think we can negotiate with people that hate democracy and say things like they want to wipe Israel off of the map….and now they are close to being a nuclear power….hmmm….how can they wipe Israel off the map….?

Our country is in a terrible state right now, it is extremely polarized and every issue falls to partisan agendas. I dont consider myself a democrat or a republican because the bickering back and forth based on political motives make me sick. You hear republicans calling democrats weak on war, you hear democrats say that Bush is now going to manipulate a war with Iran…………….These are the two statements that the parties are standing on right now and they are both erroneous and do not deserve any attention from anyone with political intelligence. The democrats are not weak on war, they just want a clear plan of what we are doing in Iraq and what we are going to do to get out of there., which is perfectly reasonable. The republicans are not manipulating a war with Iran, they do not have to do that, Iran will do that itself. They will not stop their program, they are going to call the West’s bluff and then what then? Can we allow a country with a leader that was once a top member of the student invasion of the US embassy in Tehran in the 70s be able to have nuclear power??? Can we allow a country that wants the world to be dominated by Islamist fundamentalism to become a rival to superpowers with their oil supplies and then now nuclear powers?

I do not know about you but Iran with nuclear weapons is a scary thought. And the fact that so many other countries feel the same way is a tell tale sign that Iran with nuclear weapons could spell disaster for the world as we know it. That is a fact no matter what political agenda you are on, whether your a republican looking to say the democrats are weak on war or if your a narrow minded Jon Stewart liberal that wants to tear this country in half and make republicans around the country look like monsters and idiots.

Posted by: Matt Quirin at August 26, 2006 11:46 AM
Comment #177589

“make republicans around the country look like monsters and idiots.”

They don’t need assistance from us on that.

Can you name some Bush successes?

Posted by: tony at August 26, 2006 11:52 AM
Comment #177590

The good old U S of A is the only nation that has ever used nuclear weapons against another nation. The nuclear club has grown over the years, but no other nations has ever used a nuclear weapon in a war.

There are historical parallels of nations fearing that their own tactics would be used against them, going back centuries. We fear that others will do to us what only we have done to others.

Other nations have a more reasonable fear that we will do to them what only we have done to others.

Posted by: ohrealy at August 26, 2006 11:54 AM
Comment #177591

Matt Quirin-

“You hear republicans calling democrats weak on war, you hear democrats say that Bush is now going to manipulate a war with Iran…………….These are the two statements that the parties are standing on right now and they are both erroneous and do not deserve any attention from anyone with political intelligence.”

Really? So I guess that means every credible news agency in the country except of course Fox news. I don’t know who you think you are to unilaterally declare that thousands of journalists, scholars, and political experts are wrong.

After all, they don’t have sources in the Pentagon or anything right? Oh wait…they DO get their info from sources at the Pentagon. Damn. So much for that theory huh?

So Matt, hbow is it you’ve come to know SO MUCH more than the experts on this issue? You made some blod statements, time to back them up.

Then again, how often do people in these threads actually back up wild statements like that? I haven’t seen one yet.

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 26, 2006 12:28 PM
Comment #177592

blod statements = bold statements

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 26, 2006 12:30 PM
Comment #177594

JoeRWC-

“The neo-libs want to have their own Vietnam. The war is not similar to Nam. Even if libs try to use the nam playbook, the wars are different. The libs want us to cut and run. They want us to leave govt personnel behind so that the democracy will crumble and we will have to chopper americans out of the embassy. That way, they can tell us they were right.”

Hate libs much?

Wow. Not even an attempt at logic. Just a lecture on exactly what “libs” think. I’m just really glad you are here to inform us with your expert analysis on the inner beliefs and thoughts of millions of individuals. And for it to be so simple too. Libs want another Vietnam. Wow. Did it take a whole bowel movement to think that little nugget of crap up?

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 26, 2006 12:38 PM
Comment #177595

Should any of you bother to read a newspaper rather than just these blogs you may come to realize that the Western Nations have offered, thru the U.N. many, many carrots to Iran which have been routinely rejected. If memory serves, even the Russians offered to provide the fuel for Iranian nuclear reactors so they would not have to build their own centrifuges to refine nuclear material. Other generous offers made to Iran have also been ridiculed and cast away by them. It is obvious to any thinking person what the real intention of Iran is. Given that, can the world live with Iran possessing thermo-nuclear devices? Would these weapons be readily available to their terrorist proxys? Where would terrorists strike first? I believe it would be a strike against Israel. Isreal would respond in kind. Nations would align and WWIII will have begun. It would end within days with over half the world’s population killed or maimed. The worlds supply of food, water, air, and means of production would be contaminated. Against this scenerio, we must have leaders and countries willing to stop the insanity now. Negotiations can continue but will not be productive. Beyond what has already been offered to Iran and North Korea, lies the unspeakable…capitulation to terrorism. When people on this blog, every citizen of the U.S. and all the democratic nations on earth realize how serious this is, a united voice against terrorism will stop it. Let’s try uniting behind the leaders we have rather than imagining a future leader who may or may not be brillian enough to pull this off with mere words.

Posted by: Jim at August 26, 2006 12:45 PM
Comment #177596
Saddam Hussein defied all the UN Sactions repeatedly. Action had to be taken.

When will “action” be taken in Israel, which has 124+ resolutions against it????

Posted by: Lynne at August 26, 2006 12:49 PM
Comment #177599

Rowan-

It’s time to turn off Fox News and get with reality. I’m not about to waste time refuting each and every point you make; they all sound like they’re straight from Annhole Coulter’s mouth!

The problem is that you neocon trash think that Bush=America. America was based on the United States Constitution. Yes, the Constitution. The same document that Bush has been wiping his warmongering ass with since he stole office!

Bush, whose daddy created al-Qaida and the taliban.

According to the “PATRIOT” Act, the following two statements make me a terrorist:

1)George W. Bush is the enemy of the People of the United States of America!
2)Revolt! For our lives and our childrens’ futures are at stake and in imminent peril!

Posted by: ChristianLeft at August 26, 2006 1:15 PM
Comment #177602

—— I find it very strange indeed for a Democratic
Blog. site pushing fear, an death an destruction,
an every thing in between, when we have an
election coming soon. Every time an election comes
up, we get all this B.S.- why no Debate on
the politics an elections of various people up for
election? The nit wit bringing up 9/11 an Iraq in
same sentence, you piss me right off with that
same old innuendo crap, along with the rest of the
dumb asses preaching Iraq=9/11

Posted by: DAVID at August 26, 2006 1:25 PM
Comment #177604

“First, we can’t invade Iran without a draft — that’s a given, right? Secondly, where is all the money for an Iran invasion supposed to come from? Our great grandkids?”

Adrienne,

You’re exactly right. This utter nonsense of redeploying troops for the 4th and 5th times, the “back door draft”, and weakening our home defenses thru extended deployment of our National Guard in Iraq should be a real wake up call. Oh, and I have to mention the “in country” three day R&R that’s currently the Pentagons “prescription” for PTSD.

We could not execute a limited air assualt on Iranian installations without reprecussions. Our major military installations in Iraq would come under almost immediate attack. With 130,000+ troops stationed throughout Iraq, the loss of American life alone would be staggering. Also, both China and Russia have said that it’s too soon to even consider economic sanctions, so how would they respond to an American attack against Iran.

I just read this editorial peice by James Zogby this morning: “If We Were Smart”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20060826/cm_huffpost/028041

His ideas sound very good to me. Better than WWIII!

KansasDem


Posted by: KansasDem at August 26, 2006 1:35 PM
Comment #177608

“Iran has laughed in the worlds face. The world has said stop uranium enrichment “

The world told us NOT to invade Iraq.
We laughed in their face.
(well, except Poland)

Posted by: Observer at August 26, 2006 1:53 PM
Comment #177609

Paul Siegel,

ie: the “Wanted: Scarier Intelligence” article.

It kind of looks like we could use a good, pariotic CIA operative like Valerie Plame Wilson still on the job, looking into Iran’s nuclear proliferation, but gosh darnit, Bush & Co. had to “out” her to discredit her husband in the buildup to the Iraqi war.

Yeah, that still sticks in my craw. We were by Bush’s own definition, “War on Terror”, already at war. Interpretation of the law be damned, I’ll still always believe that all of those involved, including Bush, are guilty of treason during war. IMO Bush belongs in the “big house” more than the White House.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at August 26, 2006 1:58 PM
Comment #177614

Dear Messrs. Bush and Cheney, et al.:

“To suggest that war can prevent war is a base play on words and a despicable form of warmongering. The objective of any who sincerely believe in peace clearly must be to exhaust every honorable recourse in the effort to save the peace. The world has had ample evidence that war begets only conditions that beget further war.”

…Ralph Bunche

Posted by: Lynne at August 26, 2006 2:12 PM
Comment #177624

Food for thought:


http://counterpunch.com/close08262006.html

Posted by: Tim Crow at August 26, 2006 3:02 PM
Comment #177632

Pre emptive wars. Unilateral attacks on soverign nations. Perhaps Iran with nuclear capabilities is the price we pay for such foolishness. If the shoe was on the other foot what would we do to ensure the soverignty our our nation.

That being said what do we do to mitigate the longterm damage to our Country. I was of the belief that this was due to Bush and his administration,s incompetence, but now I beleive it is more due to the misguided neo con philosphy they have been taken with.

Right now the answer seems to be more preemptive srtikes and unilateral attacks on soverign nations, or the stupidity begats stupidity approach.

The neo cons claim the “moral highground” and therefore the policies they prescribe to are the answers. To my way of thinking the neo cons need to realize they are not on the moral highground and amend their ways so we can start fixing this mess.

If they choose not to see the errors of their ways, then we need to start the draft/universal service and get ready to feed our oil addiction with the blood of our young.

Posted by: j2t2 at August 26, 2006 3:47 PM
Comment #177633

“Doc…I try to veiw my country through the worlds eye. The US is George W Bush in other nations minds. Whether I like it or not he represents us. To tear him down here is enabling the rest of the world to do the same.”
Posted by: Rowan

Rowan
Shh, Maybe if we dont say anything, they wont notice, (that he is an idiot).

Posted by: PlayNice at August 26, 2006 3:53 PM
Comment #177634

The Iraqi War is the worst thing that has happened to the U.S. since it was born?

I initially supported the incursion into Iraq but have since come to doubt that decision. And I have come to have a new-found respect for those who opposed the war from the beginning.

But such sensationalist remarks have no place in a serious debate.

Posted by: ulysses at August 26, 2006 3:54 PM
Comment #177636

“I understand all the reasons why we should not have gone to war. Do you understand that we need to be sucessful in Iraq? 9/11 happened before we entered Iraq we were already targets. If we pull out of Iraq without stability it will be that defeat that is left to our children.”

Posted by: Rowan

Rowan,

1) If you truly understood why we went into Iraq, then you know that, we have stopped Sadam from trading Iraqs oil in Euro-dollars, so now it is safe to get out.
2) Yes, 9/11 did happen before we went into Iraq. Wasnt that such a windfall to Bushie to finally sell the people of America a load of crap about how Sadam was behind 9/11, and not the real culprit, (and family friend), Ben Lauden. But, not to worry, Georgie Boy is still looking under “rocks” for him (Ben Lauden).
Yea, right!
3) If we pull out of Iraq, Iraq will be in civil war. Kinda like it is in, right now. However, after we pull out, they will be able to settle their differences without us, and like Martha Stewart would say, “That is a very good thing”. Because our being there, only makes matters worse for them, it will not “bring them together”. Our presents only seperates them ideologically and gives them all a common enemy. US!
4) No. There will never be real stability in Iraq when it is being occupied by another country. How would you like it, here? Huh? And if you are worried about our childrens debt, forget it. We are way, way into our great grandchildrens life times, by now!
5) And lastly, if you are worried about our image and defeat? Well, that is what you get when you crash the party, uninvited! You should not be concerned about a little bloody nose, you should get out, while you still can, you should run, while you can still walk; and, you should walk, while you can still, … stand. And, if you can only stand? Maybe you should find a way out while your still alive!

Posted by: PlayNice at August 26, 2006 4:16 PM
Comment #177644

First off Im not worried about a financial debt that will be inherited by my children and their children.Im worried about the world that will be left for them.
We can all argue all we want about what is right and wrong but this is war. War isn’t black and white but we are in it. As much as it pleases you all so we are there until we can be sure it is secured.
If we left now you’d all be whining how we abandoned the Iraqi people and left them to fend for themselves as they are devasted by the terrorists.
Also I don’t know if you are aware of history but extremists hated us before either Bush.

Posted by: Rowan at August 26, 2006 5:25 PM
Comment #177652

Will we have to rebuild Iran too?

Posted by: d.a.n at August 26, 2006 6:16 PM
Comment #177653
First off Im not worried about a financial debt that will be inherited by my children and their children.

Your right, Rowan.
The government and Fed can print all the money they want. Print it fast enough, and the debt disappears. And they do.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 26, 2006 6:19 PM
Comment #177654

1)First off, extremests will always hate us, that is much better than, us hateing ourselves.

2)And, secondly, if you are truly worried about the world if we get out of Iraq? How arrogant can you get? Iraq was there long before we got there, and it will be there, long after we leave.

3) Third, this is not a war, this is an occupation. A war is where you are attacked and then you attack back in defending yourselves. This is not a war, this is an occupation of Iraq by a foreign country. US!

4) Fourth, a country will never be “secure” as long as another country is has its military there, and is in “occupation”, of that country.

5) Fifth and lastly, WHAT FLIPPIN TERRORISTS are going to occupy Iraq after we leave? My God, with us there, they dont have to even fight each other, they can just fight us and all feel better about themselves!

There are no terrorists in Iraq. Where there was once a unified governemnt under one dictator with no terrorist groups; there is now one country occupied by three groups of peoples that are all vieing for a position in the economy and the political structure of that one country.

If one group cuts the other out then there is a spat. And when one group is snubed by another, there is a spat. Meanwhile, we are caught in the middle.

My God man, we are in the middle of a civil war in a country that our invasion started!!!!


And you want to stay and make it even worse, if that is even possiable.

Everyone here that wants to listen to this guy,

Raise your hands!!!!!

Posted by: PlayNice at August 26, 2006 6:21 PM
Comment #177656

Kevin23…I appreciate your response but what you responded with was lunch time recess rambling. My statement was that the democrats ARE NOT weak on war and the Bush is administration is NOT manipulating a war with Iran. If you want to be an extremist and belive he is than Im sorry for you and probably the millions other extremists out there that feel the same way. The media today is garbage, you have liberal stations and you have republican stations???? What is that nonsense, how can a station or a newspaper have a political agenda, the media is absolute garbage.

George Washington is turning in his grave right now, he was a big opponent of political parties because of the sole reason of that they would split our country in half…he was right, look at our country today, it is split down the middle on the basis of political orientation, that is ashame. Call me this generation of George Washington but I am a strong opponent of political parties squarely because of the division they have created in our country. I like how political parties allow for different visions and voices but the parties have become far too polarized.

Posted by: Matt Quirin at August 26, 2006 6:27 PM
Comment #177657

Sorry above post was to Rowan

Posted by: PlayNice at August 26, 2006 6:28 PM
Comment #177658

Matt,

We are polarized because you have a bunch of Bush loyalists that think he is God and what he says is golden. They believe everything he says without question, and they are like lemmings that will follow him off a cliff.

Meanwhile, you have the rest of the country (some 76%)that sees how our constitution is being stepped on, our Bill of Rights are being violated, and the old fashion mindset of, “we the people, by the people, of the people and for the people” is treated like so much pig slop.

“Polorized”? Ya think?

Posted by: PlayNice at August 26, 2006 6:35 PM
Comment #177659

The Koran
The Disbelievers

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
[109.1] Say: O unbelievers!
[109.2] I do not serve that which you serve,
[109.3] Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.4] Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
[109.5] Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.6] You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

Hmm, no mention of Jihad there. If only most muslims would practice what there own religion preaches. Please send this to everyone on your buddy list.

Posted by: joe_thousandaire at August 26, 2006 6:35 PM
Comment #177662

PlayNice,

I completely agree with you, the Bush loyalists are pathetic and they are a huge reason why this country is polarized.

But you also have to realize that not everything our President is doing is wrong, he has done some good, like the economy, the deficit. Even when he lowers the deficit there will be people who will argue that it was Bush’s fault for the deficit.

This is what I mean, yes he has made mistakes but he has also made good decisions and we must recognize them and not put him down for everything he does and the Bush loyalists must face the fact that he has done wrong doing as well. That is the only way to stop the polarization of our country from reaching a political civil war status.

Posted by: Matt "G. Washington reincarnate" Quirin at August 26, 2006 7:21 PM
Comment #177663

Matt:

Bush on the economy:
When Clinton was Pres. just some short 5 years ago and through out his 8 years as Pres. Oil went from 22-27 dollars per barrel.
Since then oil has gone from 27 to 86 dollars per barrel and that effects every inch of our economy today. (And that aint a good thing).

Bush on the deficite:
When Clinton was President we had a surplus in Washington DC. Today we owe over 3 Trillion Dollars to China alone. This is a debt that our childrens, childrens, grandchildren will be paying back. (That is of course unless Bush can tie up Iran like he has Iraq, in that case we can pay back China with oil, as we will then control the worlds #2 and 3# oil producers).

(That is if any of us, are still alive).

Now what were those good things, that Bush has done again?

Posted by: PlayNice at August 26, 2006 7:39 PM
Comment #177665

“he has done some good, like the economy, the deficit”

This folks is the inevitable result of living in a “red” bubble, drinking only red kool-aid, and watching only FOX news!

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at August 26, 2006 7:46 PM
Comment #177666

“You can always count on Americans to do the right thing—after they’ve tried everything else.”

Obviously, Winston Churchill, who made the above comment, didn’t have the distinct displeasure of meeting George Bush; Bush will continue to do the wrong thing in the Middle East until January, 2009.

Posted by: Tim Crow at August 26, 2006 7:58 PM
Comment #177670

“Bush will continue to do the wrong thing in the Middle East until January, 2009.”

Unless we pull in his rein’s right the hell now!

Of course we won’t! At least half of us would like to, but we must wait for the outcome of the midterms which might possibly slow down his plan of destruction and ultimate Christian Dominion
but even then we won’t really have the strength to stop this madness.

Just think about the fact that Bush’s most recent approval rating is back up to 40%+. How stupid can Americans be? It’s all amazing to me!

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at August 26, 2006 9:23 PM
Comment #177673

Its just that there’s a lot more extremists now Rowan.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 26, 2006 10:02 PM
Comment #177692

I’m an extremist.
I used to be a conservative.
Then Reagan was elected.
I became a disloyal conservative.
Next came Bush Sr.
I became a Democrat.
Then Clinton.
I became a liberal.
Now king george.
He says I’m a terrorist!

Posted by: ChristianLeft at August 27, 2006 2:09 AM
Comment #177700

While the wacky neo-libs are in control of the Dem Party, there will not be much progress. What is really srifling Iraqi freedom? Terrorists or the Dems.
About flying planes from Iraq to Syria—go to a library, get some help, and fing out about the No Fly Zones. A librarian will show you a map of Iraq and the surrounding countries. Syria is to the west and the no fly zones are to the north and south (there are also books that explain cardinal directions).
About polarizing the Parties-Who is the most polarizing person in politics? You dont need Fox to find that out. Check out the latest Time.
About knowing the neo-lib ideology-I know the behavior, but not the reasoning. My belief is that there is no reasoning. They dont use logic to figure things out. Their heart tells them what is right and wrong. Neo-libs have big hearts and small brains. Am I right? Just a guess.
“Hate libs much?”—I hate neo-libs much, too much.

Posted by: JoeRWC at August 27, 2006 3:45 AM
Comment #177705

After reading some scary comments, I had to post this.

The scary comments I am reading are: “Because GWB started a war with Iraq, we will be hunted by terrorists for the rest of our lives”.

That is scary. Does anyone remember “9/11”? That came before Iraq.
Also if you check around some, you will notice that terrorists have been trying to kill us since we became “USA”. Check into it and you will find this to be true.
So really the terrorism is not GWB and Iraq’s fault, its the TERRORISTS!
They have been blowing things up around the world for decades, or longer.
Also think of this, if Iran had our nuclear power, USA would have a huge mushroom cloud over it right now, and we would all be fighting just to stay alive. This is true before W came to office.

Terrorists want us dead, people need to realize that, and it has nothing to do with bush. OBL has trained himself to live on bread and water, and nothing else, due to the fact that he would like to see the world living in the 17th century, that has nothing to do with W.

I hope people realize that terrorists want us dead, no matter who is in office. They would blow us to bits if they had the power to do so. Believe that.

Last i remember, all of our “Nukes” were still ready to fire if we are attacked by other “Nukes”.
So if we wanted to we could mushroom cloud,Iraq, or Iran, but we dont, due to the fact that we have the policy that we do. “MAD” Dont fire nukes unless nukes are fired at us.

Posted by: Mike at August 27, 2006 9:33 AM
Comment #177718

JoeRWC,
After reading your tripe I do have say, I have a small brain and a big heart, thank you. My conservative friends are just about like me, only their heart is small along with their brain.

Posted by: j2t2 at August 27, 2006 11:23 AM
Comment #177736

Joe,

Id rather have a heart any day, than be a brain dead drone. After spouting the party line, do you ever get out much? (Into the real world, that is).

Posted by: PlayNice at August 27, 2006 1:13 PM
Comment #177785

Rowan,
It seems that you have stirred up a lot of feelings, simply by asking some questions, and making what appear to be simple mis-understood statements on your part.

I disagree with your points, but I do think it is interesting at the rather strong comments that flowed your way.

Posted by: Linda H. at August 27, 2006 9:50 PM
Comment #178076

Rowan,

I try to veiw my country through the worlds eye. The US is George W Bush in other nations minds. Whether I like it or not he represents us. To tear him down here is enabling the rest of the world to do the same.

First, the rest of the world needs nobody to tear GWB and/or US down whenever they want to. And nothing watchbloggers had posted or could post here will change that. What it could change is the ROTW opinion on americans. While the opinions and policies of Bush is well known worldwide, the US people ones are not well reported in foreign mass media. Blogs are one of the few medias that does it. At least, by reporting criticism on your own country the rest of the world can see how much you have free speech. And democracy. Nations where criticism is censored as much as possible are not. Go figure…

Second, the rest of the world is not that stupid to confuse a nation leader or government with the people and country behind. Please, we (as I’m myself from this mythical ROTW) do know better. We knows presidents, like every leaders, don’t last forever. We knows USA will survive GW Bush. We knows americans will survive the Bush heritage (could be long and costly, though).

Heck, even Bush knows it. So does the ROTW.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at August 29, 2006 11:19 AM
Comment #178078

Rowan,

If we pull out of Iraq without stability it will be that defeat that is left to our children

The next generation, whatever happens in Iraq, will have already to pay for this war, thanks to the US abyssimal debt.

Anyway, one could hope a stable Iraq, indeed. Last time it happened, it took a dictatorship to stabilize it…

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at August 29, 2006 11:26 AM
Comment #178100
Will we have to rebuild Iran too?

Yes d.a.n.
But no more than you’ve rebuilt Iraq.
See, no needs to worry about that!

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at August 29, 2006 12:25 PM
Comment #178104

Tim Crow,

Bush will continue to do the wrong thing in the Middle East until January, 2009.

I strongly disagree.
I really think he will choose his ranch over ME to ends his presidency vacation in Jan 2009. As he started it all.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at August 29, 2006 12:32 PM
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