Democrats & Liberals Archives

Tony Snow is Correct - Sort Of

The position of the Bush Regime is that withdrawal from Iraq will create a failed state that will be a haven for terrorists. Right you are!!! Tony Snow… Snow Job, Aug. 9, 2006.

My Daddy always said, that the worst kind of lie, is a half lie because it has just enough truth in it so that you can't prove that it is a lie. He said that right after beating my big brother bloody with a dog leash after he caught us lying about where we had been. Well, OK, my memory might be a little distorted. Maybe it was not exactly like that, but my sainted father sure did not like liars. He would not like this Regime and the fruit does not fall far from the tree - but I digress...

Tony Snow said:

I know a lot of people have tried to make this a referendum on the President; I would flip it. I think instead it's a defining moment for the Democratic Party, whose national leaders now have made it clear that if you disagree with the extreme left in their party they're going to come after you.
What a crock of half lies... The national leaders of the Democratic Party supported and endorsed Lieberman. Lieberman was the one kissing the President. This was a referendum on the President. In spite of the President's public tryst with Lieberman, the Democratic leadership endorsed him - which they should not have done once he threatened to run as an Independent. He should be either in or out. If he was going to run as an Independent, than he had no business running in the Democratic primary in the first place. The Democratic primary is for Democrats. Democrats run as Democrats, and win, lose, or draw, they are Democrats. We Dems would love it if Joe would stay in the party and help elect Lamont like a real Democrat would. But "the world is going to hell in a hand basket" and "we have bigger fish to fry."

Tony Snow Job said:

First, let's think about Iraq. One of the positions is that we need to leave Iraq -- we need to do it on a timetable, and we need to do it soon. It's worth walking through the consequences of that position. First, simply to walk away on a timetable without examining the conditions on the ground and without making sure that you have the ability for the Iraqis to stand up and also assert sovereignty over their territory and have a freestanding democracy would create a power vacuum and encourage terrorists not only in Iraq, but throughout the region and throughout the world that one of the problems that often besets democracies, which is impatience in hard times, in fact serves as a motivation for terror groups. Osama bin Laden some years ago said that one of the keys is that if you simply stay at terror long enough, the West is too weak, he said the Americans were too weak, and would stand down.
The first thing to note here is that the official half liar of the Bush Regime is expressing the Regime's frustration with democracy. Those pesky empowered citizens become "impatient" and think that they should have something to say during "hard times." "That is just "one of the a problems" with "democracies"... and they have the solution... Never mind that. Forget the fact that their lie betrays the lie and exposes the truth... On to the half truth...

It is absolutely true that leaving a failed state in Iraq will encourage and embolden the terrorists and provide a haven for them. True all true. If we walk away, Osama has proven our weakness and vulnerability and he will have a new base of operations. That is why - in spite my opposition to going to war - I remained in the "hawk" column with Joe Lieberman for a long time. The difference between this quagmire in Iraq and Vietnam is that; we really do need to win in Iraq - - - - IF WE CAN!!!

The alternative to withdrawal - is staying. "It's worth walking through the consequences of that position." (Hey - there is nothing wrong with Snow Job's words - he is a good writer.) An unwinnable quagmire is an unwinnable quagmire. To leave our troops pinned down in the middle of a civil war fueled by Iran on one side and Syria on the other side - is pure unadulterated idiocy. It would make more sense to invade Syria and Iran. It would be another unwinnable quagmire, but at least we could engage the actual enemy instead of tied up in a burlap bag while he pounds us from the outside. We may wind up doing exactly that. It would make more sense to nuclear glassify the whole region - Israel, Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Egypt included. I am not advocating wider war, nor nuclear glassification, but either alternative would be better than to stay in the middle of a civil war fueled by rival regional powers with nothing to lose and with whom we self righteously refuse to talk. Shear idiocy. Pure, plain and simple. When you lose a war, there are consequences. Wars have consequences. "Elections have consequences." In the recent cases, (2000 / 2004), the elections have the consequence of causing us to lose a war. This President lost the war. When you lose a war, your enemies know that you can be beaten and your friends know that they cannot count on you. This is reality. But when you have lost, you have lost. This is reality. To deny that you have lost in order to protect a Presidents "legacy" is only to assure a bigger loss later. Fight to win by all GODDAMN means - but don't fight losing battles for nothing. "Remember the Alamo." That is where this President has led us.

Snow Job goes on to point out that Iraq could provide many more resources to the terrorist and leaving could damage our credibility. Our credibility certainly would be damaged. In a civil war resources may or may not flow to terrorists.

To stay in Iraq provides live combat training for the terrorist. The ones we kill do not matter. They are just going to get a lot of good sex. The ones who survive are going to be combat seasoned against the most powerful army in the world. That is where this President has led us.


Staying there also emboldens the terrorists. The longer we stay there, the weaker we look. The more hatred and desperation we engender - the more terrorists we recruit. We have to raise our recruiting age to 42 in order to attempt to find some cannon fodder to throw at the enemy. They got more cannon fodder "than you can shake a stick at." If I was an army recruiter bustin my hump trying to meet a quota, I would be envious of Osama right now. It must be great to be a recruiter on that side, both from the stand point of recruits trying to beat your door down - plus no age limit. Eight to eighty, blind, crippled, or crazy... They don't care. As long you hate America and love virgins enough to blow yourself up - and this President has created tens, probably hundreds of millions of them and apparently wants a few more - must be a Texican thing. We are not out numbered quite bad enough. Let's create some more enemies... "Remember the Alamo." That is where this President has led us.

Staying in the unwinnable civil war quagmire of Iraq drains our treasure and profoundly weakens us in ways to numerous to catalogue in one brief editorial. That is where this President has led us.

Now - - - - - NOW! This President's proxy is bogging itself, and by extension us, down in another unwinnable quagmire in Lebanon. I know that the President reads "MY PET GOAT" - but it is truly spectacular how slow of a "lerner" at that - "hard" lernin "work" - this President is. That is where this President has led us.

Posted by Ray Guest at August 11, 2006 9:10 PM
Comments
Comment #175002

We disagree, but you did a good job of covering both sides. Your quotes of Snow seem fair.

I do not believe it is time to give up, but we are looking at the same sorts of information and drawing different conclusions.

The one objection I have is your sentence “The ones we kill do not matter. They are just going to get a lot of good sex.” I know it is probably a joke, but I do not think it is a good idea to buy into their stupid idea, even in jest. We need not accept their silly superstition or validate it in any way.

Posted by: Jack at August 11, 2006 11:09 PM
Comment #175004

I hear ya’. I don’t understand what your sayin’, but I hear ya’. This is another “bash the administration” post.

Where are the solutions?

Tony Snow’s arguments seem to be a bit stronger than yours. And let me ask, do you think they will leave us in peace if we leave? Will you?

Posted by: G.K. at August 11, 2006 11:12 PM
Comment #175010

Jack,
Thanks for kind words. My comment about lots of good sex was a joke but also intended to make a serious rhetorical point - several points actually. One, to poke fun at and show how silly their religion is. Two, to remind us that the terrorist leaders and the terrorist themselves consider themselves to be expendable - killing them does not discourage them. Just as Armageddon is viewed as a good thing by our Christians, so too they consider martyrdom to be a good thing. So killing them does not discourage them, but it does inflame the passions of thier loved ones, countrymen,and Muslim brothers, inspiring them to join the Jihad. Killing them only produces more terrorist and the few who do survive become battle seasoned. It is a basic truth: “You strengthen what you fight against.” Anti-biotics produce anti-biotic resitant bacteria. So, if you are going to use an anti-biotic you better make sure that you destroy all of the bacteria / vermin. Same thing goes for the vermin / terrorists. When we let Osama get away, the “gig was up.”

G.K.,
Thanks for your kind words. Solutions: The war is lost. Come home. Focus on homeland defense. Keep your powder dry. And prepare for the big one. To use a sports metaphor: It is fourth down and fifty. Punt. Play defense like hell. And wait for your chance to go back on the offense. When you do go back on the offense, call a smart play this time, and for Allah’s sake idiot, don’t fumble the ball again.

Posted by: Ray Guest at August 11, 2006 11:48 PM
Comment #175014

Ye gods, I’m depressed.

Posted by: Trent at August 11, 2006 11:55 PM
Comment #175025

It’s time the Democrats in this country start
kicking ass and taking names.

What they fail to realize is that the people are
behind them if only they would get some
balls and start acting like men

Posted by: D.R. Engen at August 12, 2006 12:26 AM
Comment #175028

Trent,
Sorry, let’s pray to “ye gods” that I am wrong.

D.R. Engen,
Here, here. But remember Dems are a bunch of girlie men - but the good news is we got the girlie girlies too.

Posted by: Ray Guest at August 12, 2006 12:38 AM
Comment #175041

Puting aside wether we should have had this war at all, we lost it thanks to Rummy and the Neo-Cons. In typical Republican fashion, they tried to follow the Wal-Mart model. Small army, bad equipment, missing equipment, inadequate medical coverage for the casualties, outsourcing torture! (that one boggled even MY cynical mind), etc. made for larger profits for Dick Chaneys buddies.
Now we should just retreat to the Kurd area and protect them and take a break. Let the Sunnis and Shia duke it out and watch as Iran takes over the whole area.
Then we can have our war with Iran, which is comming no matter what and regardless of which party is in control of the congress or white house.

Posted by: Rene at August 12, 2006 2:04 AM
Comment #175042

Ray,
I tend agree with your post, with one exception:

You replied to Jack tha:t

One, to poke fun at and show how silly their religion is.

I just wonder why it appears to be so hard for you to respect what anyone believes in? To call any religion silly merely appears to show ignorance on the part of the accuser…

We have discussed this before, so I hope you know that I know you are far from ignorant.

I may not like the WAY the Islamic Terrorist believe, and I may not like the why snake handlers in some of the very rural Christian churches, but they still have the right to believe what ever it is. Until their beliefs start to try to force me to believe the same thing. This appears to be what the Islamic Terrorists want to do. NOT all Muslims, not even the majority agree with these radicals.

I am not very fond of any extremist religion. However, I would & may have to (considering the way this administration does things) fight to my death for your right to be all the various things you listed in one of your previous blogs, as well as the right for me to believe what I believe, and what the extremists belive.

Frankly I’ve always thought that the US’s lack of respect for another country’s culture and way of life, may well signal the end of us all. It certainly isn’t

Now that’s depressing.


Posted by: Linda H. at August 12, 2006 2:09 AM
Comment #175045

“The one objection I have is your sentence “The ones we kill do not matter. They are just going to get a lot of good sex.” I know it is probably a joke, but I do not think it is a good idea to buy into their stupid idea, even in jest. We need not accept their silly superstition or validate it in any way.”

Jack,

Although I was going to suggest to Ray that he was “overboard” with that statement you beat me to the punch, but then you pointed out the biggest problem with that statement when you said, “their stupid idea”, and again, “their silly superstition”.

Of course Christians and Jews find the beliefs of Islam to be absurd. So do I, but I also find the beliefs of Christians and Jews to be just as absurd. Every religion believes their way to heaven is the only way to heaven.

How absurd is the Christian message? I can lie, cheat, steal, sleep with my neighbors wife, and even kill someone, but as long as I accept Jesus as my true saviour I can be saved. OTOH if I live a good life and try to do only good deeds, but fail to accept Jesus as my saviour I’m damned for eternity.

But, in America we’ve learned that we must accept each others differences and deeply held beliefs. You may not like my being agnostic and some would go as far as to try and change my ways, others might pray for my salvation, but for the most part, we’ve learned to “live and let live”.

If Bush’s adventure in Iraq and all the lives lost have not been in vain the true lesson must be that “extremism” regardless of the source can not and will not ever result in peace. Bush is being widely criticized for his use of the terminology “Islamic fascism” lately and I would suggest that he just say “religious extremism”, but he’s not really wrong.

Hmmmm, how bad do things have to be when I find myself agreeing with Bush on anything?

Iraq was a huge mistake, but how do we get out without having created another safe-haven for terrorists?

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at August 12, 2006 2:53 AM
Comment #175050

Now, I thought this was pretty darn interesting:

“While the British terror suspects were hatching their plot, the Bush administration was quietly seeking permission to divert $6 million that was supposed to be spent this year developing new homeland explosives detection technology.”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060812/ap_on_go_ot/terror_explosives_detection_8

KansasDem
PS: Anyone feel safer now?

Posted by: kansasDem at August 12, 2006 3:14 AM
Comment #175053

Linda H.,

You wrote:

I just wonder why it appears to be so hard for you to respect what anyone believes in? To call any religion silly merely appears to show ignorance on the part of the accuser…
You are right too. We have had this fight before and I lost it the last time around. I am barely going to try this time. I try to look at these things from a lot of different ways. Some of those ways are bound to be biased, sexist, and racist. I have tried and continue to try hard to root these ideas out of my thinking, but the roots are deep. Inevitably some of those viewpoints are inconsistent with one another. I try to bring as much coherence to those divergent viewpoints as I can, but it is like a house of cards. Having spent some of my childhood as a fundamentalist Christian with passionate faith, and having subsequently rejected that dogma as intellectually ridiculous, and then having followed my own life path into my own personal hell, addiction, and spiritual bankruptcy, I can now look back at that old time (500 year old) religion and say: I can see how following that would have led me into a closer relationship with this real or imagined God, but I still think that the dogma is silly and ridiculous, and it is not the path for me. But clearly it works and it could be true. I don’t like God if it is true, but it could be true and I have known wonderful people who follow that path. Bill Moyers is one public example that comes to mind. So I have this odd mixture of respect for the people, respect and envy for the emotional, spiritual, existential experience that they have, disdain and disgust for the hypocrites, disdain and disgust for the people who I perceive as worshipping their dogma, mixed with a playful mean little boy’s ant squashing need to persecute. The same thing applies to Islam although I am less well informed about it. The terrorist surrendered their lives and their mission to God. That is a real relationship that they are having. They think that they are having that relationship with Allah. It is real for them. I think that they are having that relationship with the dogma of their faith. I am probably right, but what do I know? But I “get it” that it is real for them. Having sex with a bunch of virgins might be a good metaphorical description of rapture. Some people (Tantric), say that you are never so close to God as you are when you are having orgasm. That is the religion for me. But I digress. I talked about Osho’s Meditations on Buddhism in my last thread so I won’t repeat that here, but I think that people who worship their dogma are spiritually bankrupt and degenerate and I am sure that they have a religious experience that is real for them. That is what makes them so dangerous - whatever their religion. I also still think that to believe you will literally have sex with a bunch of virgins is silly, ridiculous, and funny - but real and dangerous. That is what I believe. I may be incredibly insightful or I may be worshipping the dogma of my own logic. I am sure that I am worshipping dogma in some kind of way because I certainly see it in other people. I do not believe that you can see anything in other people that does not exist in yourself. For example, I think we cannot recognise hate without having had the subjective experience of hating. Anyhow, I think that I have talked myself in a complete circle and the house of cards is still falling down. Thanks, I will read the rest of your comments more carefully later.

Posted by: Ray Guest at August 12, 2006 6:45 AM
Comment #175068

Besides, what’s so great about sex with virgins?

Posted by: Trent at August 12, 2006 9:30 AM
Comment #175070

Ok, that was glib. I’m all for respecting people’s religious beliefs, for the most part, but overly patriarchial belief systems are a cause/symptom of the fact that half with world’s population is not as valued/important/worthy as the other half.

Posted by: Trent at August 12, 2006 9:35 AM
Comment #175071

…. from Hot Shots:

Valeria Golino: I’m a virgin. I’m just not very good at it.

(OK, now that puts a better spin on things…)

Posted by: tony at August 12, 2006 9:39 AM
Comment #175074

Kanss and Linda H

I did not say that Islam was silly, far form it. I am not an Islamic scholar, but I have spoken to many who tell me that the 72 virgins crap is not part of Islam. In fact, they tell me, the Koran specifically forbids both killing of innocents and suicide. The bombers are going to hell.

The belief that if you kill yourself and others in a suicide bombing IS stupid. If I accept that, I accept that one of these guys has the right to kill me and my family and will do to heaven for it. I cannot but reject that. I do not respect those who believe it. I cannot live and let live, because they will NOT let me live if they have the power to prevent it.

It is not in any way the same as a fundamentalist of any religion who thinks we are going to hell if we do not accept their religion. Maybe they are right, but as long as they don’t try to send me their sooner, it is their business.

Let’s talk a little about PC and Islam. People on this blog and all over the U.S. are perfectly happy to ridicule fundamentalists in the U.S. yet when you find a truly pernicious belief among murderers you complain that we should understand it.

We need to understand these sort of people enough to destroy or neutralize their power. There is a big difference between understanding and accepting or even tolerating.

Or maybe let’s put it this way. They believe they go to heaven where they get to rape 72 virgins. I believe they go to hell where they ARE raped by 72 perverts. You can respect both our beliefs, but they cannot both re right.

Posted by: Jack at August 12, 2006 9:53 AM
Comment #175078

wow ….
It always seems to be the same with most democrats ,,blame the US and think that if we run and hide across our borders these shameless rabid ,ignorant men and women who make up the islamic crazy brigades ,its always the same leave iraq ,abandon isreal at a time that iran nad his fellow henchmen continue to fund and probibly give direct orders for actions to destabilize the whole area ,,,what most people fail to realize is that each increase we see in the cost of oil is directly funding these crazys,and no one is willing to say stop this must end …first by drilling any where we can secure additional oil and then by adding a 2 dollar per gallon tax to all gas ,,with proceeds being disbursed to fund and create alternative fuels sources and alternative engine designs.whats it going to take to make it so our elected officials will work together for the best interest of america ,instead of the best interest of there own political party…many continue to spout the idea that weapons of mass distruction have not been found ,,,well lets see in may this year almost a 1000 155 howitzer binary chemical shells were found …the primary point being that the weapons that were there are now probibly in the hands of those who will stop at nothing to destroy this country ….and with planning less than 500 people strategicly placed across this countyr could bring our whole society to the brink of destruction in less than a week with proper planning ….and with bin laden being an excellant engineer and highly intelligent person …how much longer do you think itll be before one of his plots again causes us much harm …?meanwhile we allow iran and syria to fund and arm these people who then go and use this to kill and maim our children …when will we wake up and realize were in the biggest most deadly fight of our short history ,,and if we continue to work against each other ,,trying to give lawyers to people detained on battlefields ,tying the hands of those resposible for defending this nation …we may end up losing what we most cherish ….

Posted by: jay at August 12, 2006 10:13 AM
Comment #175081

Jack -

Here’s the problem I see: It’s not just the murderers who follow this faith, and there for you are ridiculing a people’s faith - and not the actions or true motivations of these criminals. I highly doubt more than a few beleive the 72 virgin thing, but I guess we would need to read their letters and hear what they had to say, if possible. I’ve not read any “suicide notes” that brag about the going to see the virgins. I think, my opinion, is that this is an urban myth to help reduce our enemy’s stature.

This “72 virgin” thing seems quite ridiculous, but if a man dies in a house fire rescuing kids, would you also ridicule his faith.

It’s the act, and not the religion we need to understand and eliminate.

Posted by: tony at August 12, 2006 10:17 AM
Comment #175082

Jack,

“We need to understand these sort of people enough to destroy or neutralize their power.”

They have no power, except that which we assign them.
A fundamentalist is a fundamentalist, is a fundamentalist.
Fundamentalism of whatever ilk, is not a live and let live belief system.
Those that would believe in any religion that sanctions murder or suicide as a means of control, in reality, only worship death.

It doesn’t matter if it is a bus, a market or an abortion clinic, it’s just wrong.

Murder is murder, and anyone that believes the ends justify the means, regardless if it is in the name of Allah, God, or a cosmic muffin, is just insane, and is just plain wrong.

Posted by: Rocky at August 12, 2006 10:17 AM
Comment #175083

I think someone here already implied this, Ray probably, but the problem, I think, is that genuine spiritual impulses are codified into dogma/doctrine, and then followers worship the dogma/doctrine, which can lead to very disturbing thought and behavior — everything from “knowing” that the women’s role is to be a help mate up to suicide bombing.

We can try to understand another culture, but we cannot believe that all belief systems are equally valid. That path leads to extreme relativism and means we must turn a blind eye to much suffering. We cannot be true to our own western values — the dignity and worth of the individual; equality irrespective of gender, race, and religion; etc. — and hold that dictatorships, clitorectomies, subservience of women are ok because that is what another culture believes.

Jack, elsewhere you’ve written about the will of the people, and how the will of the people is always expressed in elections, etc. I held my tongue, there, mostly, but here is a great example of how ideology can infuse people to act against their own will. If you polled women living in repressive cultures, you would find that most if not all believe their oppression is justified and/or the normal course of things. Yes, this is a Marxist idea, but very insightful nontheless.

We of course have our own ideologies that shape the way we think and are hard to escape. In America, for example, it is almost inconceivable to think of an alternative to the form of capitalism we have now. Nothing in our public schooling gives us the tools or inclination to challenge that ideology. Yet, when some other system emerges sometime in the future, we will look back on this era and wonder how we could have been so blind. I’m not talking about communism here, or at least how it has been thus-far manifested.

Posted by: Trent at August 12, 2006 10:20 AM
Comment #175085

I frankly think all religion is silly, but that’s me. I stopped worshipping ghosts in kindergarten.

Jack, dying for a just cause is hardly a stupid idea. Many a WWII movie hero died on a suicide mission. Personally, I prefered James Garner’s role in the Americanization of Emily.

Pat Tillman died heroically, in my opinion, it was just the military PR machine and yahoo commanders that made it a sad and sick joke.

Posted by: gergle at August 12, 2006 10:27 AM
Comment #175087

Risking your life and dying for a cause can be noble. Often it is. But it does not have to be.

Rocky - you mention bombing abortion clinics. That is always wrong. If a person dies doing that, I do not repect him. I do not respect the KKK man who dies trying to burn out a black family. I do not respect Jim Jones and his murder suicide pact and I do not respect murderous fanatics who blow themselves up in order to kill some kids at a pizza place.

All these guys are pathetic fools. They are very dangerous, like a poison snake. We have to respect them in the sense of them being dangerous, but that is it.

Some of the Islamic fighters do die heroically, fighting. I do not like what they are doing, but I can respect that. I could respect the fighting men in Germany, Japan, Vietnam etc. But let us take the German example. The German sargent who dies defending a bridge in a lost bad lost cause because he thinks he is doing his duty, is not the same as a concentration camp guard who dies trying to gas a bunch of kids.

The sucicide bomber is the equivlent of the camp guard, not the soldier. Give him no respect. Please do not fall to that level. It is an insult to our own fighting men and in the long run even to his fighing men colleagues.

Is there any German fighting veteran who wants to be in the same category as the camp guard in charge of the administering the gas?

Posted by: Jack at August 12, 2006 10:47 AM
Comment #175090

“But, in America we’ve learned that we must accept each others differences and deeply held beliefs. You may not like my being agnostic and some would go as far as to try and change my ways, others might pray for my salvation, but for the most part, we’ve learned to “live and let live”.”
Posted by: KansasDem at August 12, 2006 02:53 AM


Yes. In America we have learned that. In the middle east they can’t even live together let alone accept that we live on the same planet. They blow each other up!!

“Let’s talk a little about PC and Islam. People on this blog and all over the U.S. are perfectly happy to ridicule fundamentalists in the U.S. yet when you find a truly pernicious belief among murderers you complain that we should understand it.”
Posted by: Jack at August 12, 2006 09:53 AM

Now I get it. Finally. The reason the likes of Dean, Reid, and Pelosi cannot give us their ‘plan’ to solve this problem.
They cannot tell the American people that they want to catch the islamofascists and put them in therapy.
The far left Dems think if they can talk to them they can change their mindset. It’s not their fault. They were born innocent. Someone else made them the way they are.

The terrorist who is willing to strap on a bomb and blow theirself and others to bits has passed the point of no return. Same with the ones who are training these bombers.
The ‘moderates’ around them have been scared into silence and have no way of fighting the extremists.
The Western world sat around too long and let this fester.
Iran is in the lead. Taking out Iran from the ‘outside in’ was probably the best way to solve this problem. That includes the war in Iraq.
Instead of continuing to point out the missing WMD’s, and giving the terrorists news clips of Americans saying the U.S. was wrong, maybe the dems should try harder to get their heads around the WHOLE solution to Islamic Fascism.
The diehard Islamic Fascists have to be taken out, and a new system put in place, before the therapy will work.


Jack,
The soldier fought to protect the camp guard. But was it like N.Korea? They may only be in the army so they can have something to eat, and not really be a true follower?
Those who love Hezbollah are getting their food, water, and medical care from them and don’t care what they do to stay in power?

Posted by: bug at August 12, 2006 10:56 AM
Comment #175092

All,
Good comments. I am going to set back, shut up (for just a minute), listen, and learn. Lest I open my mouth and let my brains drop out. I never do that. - - - - - - - I can’t do it - - I can’t do it - - - Allah help me I can’t do it. I am sort of like Doctor Strange Love - - - trying to clamp my mouth shut even as the words and brains leak out…

The fight is over, the doctor speaks…

Jack,
I agree with much of what you are saying. I think some of the disagreement may be misunderstanding. I would offer a few concepts. Christians have the concept of “loving the sinner and hating the sin.” My secular version of that would be that you can respect that human beings are human no matter how sick, twisted, confused, or deranged they might be - even 72 perverts, (Dante would love your concept of terrorist hell). They think they are going to get sex… we got their sex right here… anyhow… So we can accept that terrorist who surrender their life and their mission to Allah are having a real emotional, spiritual, existential relationship with something that gives their life meaning, purpose, and direction without accepting that they are correct or that what they are doing is humane or good. In fact accepting that will help us to defeat them. I think that we would like to define “human” as a bunch of sweet soccer Moms… The reality is that “human” encompasses a lot more than soccer Moms, sweet as they are. Human includes “Vlad the Impaler” impaling between 10 and 100 thousand people on pikes in front of his castle. “Impaling” is a little more efficient and creative then crucifixion. Impaling is human. Crucifixion is human. Gas chambers are human. Perverts are human. All of these things are sick, but human beings regularly engage in all of them. We can accept and respect their humanity even as we decry and confront their sickness. We must understand these people deeply - the better to defeat them. “My what a passionate religion you have?” “The better for Allah to be on my side my dear.” “No, you are a wolf, and I shall cut your belly open and remove the IED that you have hidden there!” A new fairy tail for the new children of the new millenium.

Posted by: Ray Guest at August 12, 2006 11:09 AM
Comment #175098

Ray,

First sentence used the words “Bush Regime” which means you’re trying to make some childish analogy to Saddam. Ironic how you’re desperate to get Bush out of office but getting Saddam out of office wasn’t so critical in your mind, indubitably. Huhn, maybe “regime” actually isn’t a bad word in your vocabulary … or is it? I can’t tell. In any case you absolved yourself of all seriousness in your very 1st sentence and your thread was not read, at least not by me.

I would suggest you save your typing for one of those “Bush is Hitler” wacko-left responses.

************

For photo fraud on the Israeli-Hezbollah war go to: http://www.aish.com/movies/PhotoFraud.asp

Posted by: Ken Strong at August 12, 2006 11:46 AM
Comment #175100

I think the root of the problem is desperation that clouds good judgement. I’m not saying that this somehow justifies the acts of murder or that all terrorists are living/come from desperate lives. It’s the general desperate situation of a group of people that spawns terrorism. We’ve seen it in the American Revolution, we’ve seen it in Ireland, we’ve seen it from Jewish people and we’ve seen it with various groups of Muslims.

When people are oppressed by a greater military power/state - they resort to violence on an obtainable level. Only a fool attacks a tank on a bicycle, so you attack in covert ways. The problem is that justifying this with a religious document allows the concept to be taken further to revenge-style killings: they killed my mother and sister, so I am justified in killing their mothers and sisters.

If people want good solutions to ending terrorism, look at success rather the excuses found in failures. Look at the situation in Ireland - or in Egypt. Both of the countries were mired in a very violent cycle of violence, but found ways to end it.

It’s a very complex issue: you have to immediately stop all violence, you must talk and LISTEN to all sides involved to find solutions that will work, you must alleviate the desperate situations of people on all sides, and you must allow all sides to achieve a sustainable way of life. This is not an easy solution, and it will never satisfy the thirst for revenge, but if we ever want to have peace in the Middle East - we must look past personal grievances towards the larger benefit of society.

Posted by: tony at August 12, 2006 11:53 AM
Comment #175104

jay,
Interesting rant, disagree with about half of it.

Posted by: Ray Guest at August 12, 2006 12:09 PM
Comment #175105

I thought the point of this post was that Snow is a lying sack of sht, and a pro to model if you ever need to lie. Why does this become a battle over the legitimacy of islamic fundamentalism?

Maybe I’m delusional, but I can easily imagine a fiscal conservative deciding that it is time to make a plan to get out of Iraq. That doesn’t sound like an extreme position IMO. I was against the war from the beginning, but many more were for it who have changed their minds. What I can’t stand is the demonization of anyone who disagrees with GW and co. There are many ways to defend our country against terrorist attacks. Let’s vote in some people who will try some others.

Posted by: Loren at August 12, 2006 12:11 PM
Comment #175110

Jack,

It isn’t important to respect those who fight you. But if you ever hope to live in peace you must try to understand why they do what they do. Calling them evil or saying they hate our freedom doesn’t work unless your plan is to kill all of them and hope they don’t grow back like weeds.

In theory, the democratization of the region is a step toward peace. It seems that the Iraqis want it, but I seriously doubt the real leaders do. Until those who want political power believe they can achieve it through democracy(or at least peace), the fighting will never stop.

Posted by: Loren at August 12, 2006 12:28 PM
Comment #175111

I’m curious how Jack and Ray would categorize John Brown of the U.S. Civil war era? He seems kind of like a Jihadist to me, but he helped bring an end to slavery.


An interesting article about fundamentalism: Evolution losing favor

Posted by: gergle at August 12, 2006 12:33 PM
Comment #175114

Loren, how right you are, there are many more effective ways to defend our Country from terrorism. The debacle in Iraq IMO had nothing to do with terrorism. Unfortunatly if we left now it probably would turn into a terrorist haven. W and the neocons have screwed the pooch on this one, hence we get the likes of Tony Snow. The sad fact is its what we as a Country deserve, after all we did give the decider a mandate by re-electing him the second time around. This is nothing more than what we saw the first 4 years except Snow job is just a little better at it then his predecessors.

Posted by: j2t2 at August 12, 2006 12:41 PM
Comment #175120

Ray

All humans deserve respect for that, as you say and I agree. Not all idea or beliefs deserve respect, even if the believers call it religion. I have a wide tolerance of beliefs. I may strongly resist or dislike some ideas, but I can respect and call them valid. But there is a limit to my tolerance. Those who believe that killing innocents will help them go to heaven can go to hell … and their little god too.

Loren

I understand weeds. I have a bunch of tree of heaven on my farm. I understand that if I hack the bark with my ax and squirt in a little Arsenal-AC, they die. If I keep this up two or three times and plant in super loblolly, they will be controlled. I can never elimiate them, but I can make them insignificant. I want to understand as much about suicide bombers as I do about weeds for the same reasons.

Gergle

John Brown was crazy because of his methods. The song is good, however. But John Brown was very civilized compared with your average suicide bomber. He specifically targeted individuals because of their behaviors. He captured the arsenal at Harper’s Ferry. He did not set off explosions in the marketplace. He killed slavery supporters at Pottawatomie Creek. He did not murder their small children. It shows how depraved the suicide bombers are that their methods make John Brown’s look like a kindergarten project.

Posted by: Jack at August 12, 2006 1:19 PM
Comment #175123

Well, Jack, I do think that understanding an enemy is useful to know how to defeat them. Your weed killer, for example. It’s true that you (or me) may not understand exactly the mechanism by which it works (or maybe you do, I dunno), but who ever developed it does. Without that understanding in the first place, you wouldn’t have the very effective weed killer you have.

I don’t want to take this too far because of course there are folk remedies etc. for various things that do work even if folks don’t understand why, but in general I think you would agree that understanding processes is what drives the development of more effective tools, remedies, approaches, whatever. Trial and error can work but it is often not efficient.

We want specialists in Muslim culture involved in formulating middle east policy and in combating terrorism.

When cops go after psychotic serial killers, they use insights gained through the study of psychotic serial killers.

Posted by: Trent at August 12, 2006 1:31 PM
Comment #175129

Yeah, Trent, study them. Understand them. But never buy into their idea or call it equally valid. The cops study Charles Manson of Jeffry Dalhmer, but nobody tries to justify their actions. Also, let’s be clear - Even Manson and Dalhmer were not as bad as Mohammed Atta. These are really bad guys.

Of course, my weed trees are not evil like the terrorists. I actually kind of like them and they (unlike terrorists) can sometimes play a useful role. If you look at my picture in my profile those trees I am standing in front of are the trees of heaven. They are dead now. Let’s hope we can do the same to terrorists.

Posted by: Jack at August 12, 2006 1:49 PM
Comment #175131

Help!!! Who am I suppose to trust?
These videoes contradict each other!!!!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696%20&hl=en
Posted by: Paul in Euroland

For photo fraud on the Israeli-Hezbollah war go to: http://www.aish.com/movies/PhotoFraud.asp
Posted by: Ken Strong

Posted by: Linda H. at August 12, 2006 1:58 PM
Comment #175163

Jack
if you don’t care what makes them tick, you will never get rid of them. I would never give credence to their philosophies, but do you curse the darkness or turn on the lights?

Posted by: Loren at August 12, 2006 6:31 PM
Comment #175192

Loren

I care what makes them tick and how they work. You have to understand an enemy in order to destroy them. That does not mean I have to extend any sympathy to their ideas. I can understand that Nazis hate jews or KKK hates blacks, but I can still believe those ideas are silly.

Let me ask you. Do you respect people who bomb abortion clinics? Do you respect racists or serial killers? Should you try to understand them? Yes. Should you accept that their ideas or motivations are legitimate? No. The same goes for suicide bombers.

Posted by: Jack at August 12, 2006 9:19 PM
Comment #175199

All,
Thanks for the great discussion.

bug,
You wrote:

Now I get it. Finally. The reason the likes of Dean, Reid, and Pelosi cannot give us their ‘plan’ to solve this problem.
They cannot tell the American people that they want to catch the islamofascists and put them in therapy.
The far left Dems think if they can talk to them they can change their mindset. It’s not their fault. They were born innocent. Someone else made them the way they are.
What can I say? You have figured us out.

bug, Jack, on a more serious note…
bug wrote in response to Jack:

The soldier fought to protect the camp guard. But was it like N.Korea? They may only be in the army so they can have something to eat, and not really be a true follower?
Those who love Hezbollah are getting their food, water, and medical care from them and don’t care what they do to stay in power?
I believe all men have a thin dark “skin” covering their brilliant innocence. It is sort of my atheist, secular version of “original sin” - except that the concept of original sin is that our core essence guilty, and my concept is that everyone’s core essence is innocent, but hidden behind the evil. bug sort of touched on the same concept when he was poking sticks in our liberal cage in the first quote from him. Clearly, some people’s innocence is covered by such a thick black layer of evil that it will never be seen in this lifetime, but I believe that it is still in there. Innocence by its nature is innocent and cannot be corrupted, but it certainly can be buried under a mountain of camel dung - or a mountain of Bibles - or a mountain of Korans - or as bug would likely say, perhaps even a mountain of liberals… Anyhow, where I was going with this: Were either bug or you aware of the psychological study that was done after World War Two, to test what extremes ordinary people would go to under the direction of an authority figure? I should know, but don’t know the name of the psychologist or study, but it can be found. It was famous. They recruited test subjects and told them that they were testing memory. Then they took an actor pretending to be a volunteer in a room and strapped electrodes to him. The test subjects were told to give him an increasing shock whenever he got an answer wrong. There were three banks of switches on the the control panel. I think there might have been 48 switches. The first section was labeled something like Mild Shock. The second something like Medium Shock. The third bank was labeled something like Extreme Danger - High Voltage - Lethal - Do not administer under any circumstances. Almost everybody who volunteered to be a test subject went through all three banks of switches including the lethal ones under the authority and direction of a lab technician in a white lab coat. That was all the authority that was required to get most people to administer painful, lethal electric shocks repeatedly. A technician in a lab coat. The actor would beg for mercy. He would tell them he had heart problems. He would tell them he was having chest pains - that he was dying - that he wanted to drop out of the experiment - but the lab tech would say “You must finish the experiment” and almost everybody would zap that sap suckin liberal actor again with the highest most lethal dose - for a lousy memory experiment - because a lab tech in a white coat told them to. Now, Jack, bug, I would refer you to my recent article in the archives: Republican Authoritarianism. There’s a stick in your cage bug…

Ken Strong,
I saw a site - maybe the same one - on that photo fraud…

gergle, and Linda H.,
I am going to check you links out now.

Again - Thanks everyone for the excellent discussion.

Posted by: Ray Guest at August 12, 2006 10:10 PM
Comment #175221
Let me ask you. Do you respect people who bomb abortion clinics? Do you respect racists or serial killers? Should you try to understand them? Yes. Should you accept that their ideas or motivations are legitimate? No. The same goes for suicide bombers.

No. No. Yes. No. And thanks for the Rumsfeld conversation. Jack, why do some people become suicide bombers? If we stop the causes, we cure the disease.

Posted by: Loren at August 13, 2006 12:20 AM
Comment #175231

gergle,
Both issues that you raise are deep. That is an excellent site for science. The site that I went to for John Brown was: Harper’s Ferry I feel like I should write articles about both issues. The first thing comes to my mind about John Brown and Harper’s Ferry is that one man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist. I could not help but to think about Osama when I watched those videos. Osama also thinks that he is fighting injustice / American Imperialism. There is a lot of injustice as a result of American Imperialism so that we can maintain access to our Hydrocarbon-ic Heroin As Jack points out John Brown was attacking an armoury - not children - but the parallels… He ultimately won - just like Osama is beating Bush. We liberals cannot seem to beat Bush, but Osama is mopping the floor with him. I believe that we will eventually defeat Osama, but probably not until after Bush leaves. Our best hope is to develop alternative energy so that we can break their strangle hold on us. It is always darkest before the dawn.

The other issue. Evolution. We are losing. We are winning. Americans are poorly educated. The fact that acceptance of evolution is going down is probably due to the greying of America. On the other hand less people are certain that evolution is wrong, so at least people are open minded about it. Galileo won. We will win.

Linda H.,
What a great link. I am not sure if you found it or Paul in Euroland, but what a great link. Everybody in this thread needs to go there and watch it. Here is the same link again: Media Education FoundationI find no conflict between this and the other link about fraudulent pictures. The other link is used to fuel the “liberal media” myth. The fraudulent pictures link does show that the media is fraudulent. This link shows that the media is not liberal. Of course the fraudulent media wants dramatic pictures. They want you to feel sorry for the Palestinian children. They want you to feel sorry because they want to hook you so that you will watch and buy tennis shoes - but they also want you to think that the suffering of the children is entirely the fault of the Palestinians…

Posted by: Ray Guest at August 13, 2006 1:09 AM
Comment #175239

“What can I say? You have figured us out.”
Posted by: Ray Guest at August 12, 2006 10:10 PM

I wasn’t joking as you were Ray.
Did you ever consider you yourself may be caught up in a similar trap?
Of course not.

Posted by: bug at August 13, 2006 1:29 AM
Comment #175242

Loren

YOu can stop the cause of the suicide bombers by making it a less useful strategy, wiping out the bombers or giving in to their demands.

You seem to believe that there is something we have done, can do or can stop doing that has provoked the bombers. Some of their problem with us is just us. Recall that Osama is still mad about the Andalusia debacle. You might remember that was 1492 when the Muslims lost Spain.

When the president says they hate our freedom, a lot of people make fun of him. But he is right that what the terrorist want is for us to be subordinate to their beliefs.

Ray

Osama sure is winning. He has managed to elude capture and he cleverly got us to destroy 2/3 of his organization and destroy his safe haven. Of course, he has successfully attacked in the U.S. how many times since 9/11?

Capturing particular individuals can be hard. Recall that Dr. Mengele died of natural causes in Brazil. Various serb leaders are still running free. Terrorists like Carlos the Jackel were hiding in Baghdad. Abu Abbas, the Palestinian terrorist who masterminded the 1985 hijacking of the Achille Lauro was only captured after we got rid of his protector Saddam.

Alternative energy is a good idea. See my post on the other side.

Posted by: Jack at August 13, 2006 1:36 AM
Comment #175248

Jack,
You still didn’t answer my question. Stop the cause, and stop the war. There is always another solution.

You seem to believe that there is something we have done, can do or can stop doing that has provoked the bombers.

No I don’t. But even if I am not the cause, I can be part of the solution.

Posted by: Loren at August 13, 2006 1:56 AM
Comment #175260

bug,
I knew that you were not joking - but I still find it humorous - I know that I am not supposed to - but I do.

Jack,
You wrote:

Osama sure is winning. He has managed to elude capture and he cleverly got us to destroy 2/3 of his organization and destroy his safe haven. Of course, he has successfully attacked in the U.S. how many times since 9/11?
Good point. On the other hand: Worldwide terrorism up - dead babies are dead - whether here or somewhere else - Osama is on the offense… Terrorists recruitment - up. Terrorists live combat training against the most powerful army in the world - up. American recruitment - down. American military readiness - down. American military strength - down. American influence - down. American treasure - wasted. American treasure related resilience to meet future challenges - down. American freedom and Constitutional protections - down. Have you ever seen a pack of wolves take a moose down? Wolves are no match for a moose… They harass it and get it to run until it runs out of steam and cannot run any more - they don’t care if it charges or runs away - just so long as it runs - we are running hard - wearing our military out - wasting our energy and our treasure - when the moose finally can’t run no more - a little bite here - a slash there - sink the teeth in and hold on - pull it to the ground - kill it - feast. That is Osama’s plan for us and we are playing into his hand.

Posted by: Ray Guest at August 13, 2006 2:28 AM
Comment #175265
When the president says they hate our freedom, a lot of people make fun of him. But he is right that what the terrorist want is for us to be subordinate to their beliefs.

People make fun of him because that is an infantile statement. Gee you make them sound like the Moral Majority.

Brainwashed fanatics are not that rational. They see us as evil, and their leaders fill them full of propaganda, lies and hatred. Their leaders want power, and hating America is an easy way for them to keep it.

Posted by: Loren at August 13, 2006 2:41 AM
Comment #175288

Loren

My point is that we may not control the root cause, so we cannot eliminate it. What cold Jews in 1939 Germany do to address the root cause of anti semitism? What could a black farmer in the 1925 in Mississippi do about the root caused of racism?

We are in a better position in that we can fight back. But our ability to address the “root cause” is just as feeble.

In the long term you are right. But in the long term we are all dead. In the short term, we are left with discouraging attacks by agressive policing and force where appropriate.

Ray

Please see above re root causes. Taking you analogy and feeding in the ideas above, what can the moose do? The wolves can do attack the moose and then run off. They can wear it down. I suppose the only alternative would be for all the moose to get together and destroy the wolf safe haven and break up wolf packs when they see them forming. But if they could not catch all the wolves in Canada, it would not be a surprise.

Posted by: Jack at August 13, 2006 10:24 AM
Comment #175294

Jack,
I hope you caught Meet the Press this morning, and listened to the bipartisan sanity delivered by Kean and Hamilton. Poverty, lack of hope, political power grabbing and propaganda are the root causes of the radicalization of Islam. Our policies, both Dem and GOP, have allowed this to occur. As I stated before, Democracy is, in theory, a step toward getting a handle on the roots of the problem, but will never occur because the foundations for stability were not made priorities from the beginning. I believe the GOP had its shot and blew it, and should be replaced.

Posted by: Loren at August 13, 2006 12:26 PM
Comment #175303

“Poverty, lack of hope, political power grabbing and propaganda are the root causes of the radicalization of Islam. Our policies, both Dem and GOP, have allowed this to occur”

Loren

There are two kinds of American arrogance. One thinks we should control the world; the other thinks we do. WE allowed poverty, lack of hope etc ot happen in the Muslim world? Give me a break. How much power do you think we have. The Muslim world has been in poverty, run by despots, where the masses lacked hope since the time of Mohammed and before. This is not something new or something we allowed to happen. And it is not something we can change ourselves.

Yes, it would be great if the Arab world was more prosperous and advanced. You know that the GDP of Spain alone is greater than that of all Arab countries combined (even with the oil). More books are translated in Greek each year than into Arabic. Not one Arab country is a democracy. It has been like this for a long time. In fact, the Arab world has never been richer, better educated or healthier than it is today. Think about that and then tell me how the U.S. will “solve” this problem. Then we can talk about those root causes.

You know that you and Bush share the idea that we can change the Middle East, but he recognizes that it will take a long time.

Posted by: Jack at August 13, 2006 1:31 PM
Comment #175311

Jack,
Thanks for extending my metaphor. Let’s extend it further. I agree, the moose is between a rock and a hard place. That is the point. Probably the best chance that the moose has is to run. If it can get to a large body of water, it can probably out swim the wolves, or make a stand in about 2.5 feet of water. In 2.5 feet of water, the wolves will not even try. The moose needs to be smarter than the wolves. It needs to choose where it will make its stand. It needs to choose wisely. This President has not chosen wisely. He has chosen to bog himself down in quagmire. The wolves are light. They do not sink in. They do not bog down. The bogged down moose is slow and lumbering. Now, he is an easy target. The Republican “Cut and Run” talking point triggers and manipulates the macho impulses of the American people. In fact, when you are bogged down in a quagmire - surrounded by wolves - cutting and running is exactly the right thing to do - your other choice is “Standing and Dying.” RUN!!! Run like hell. Run to the big water. Run to the shallow water. Run to the heavy brush where the wolves cannot easily out flank you. Run to a box canyon where the wolves cannot out flank you. Run for the Love of God run! For God’s sake run! Run or die…

Posted by: Ray Guest at August 13, 2006 1:53 PM
Comment #175316

Jack,

Moose, and wolves for that matter, are smart enough not to be macho. They are smart enough to know that they are fighting for survival. I wish that this President was as smart as a moose.

Posted by: Ray Guest at August 13, 2006 2:05 PM
Comment #175318

Jack,

Moose, and wolves for that matter, are smart enough not to be macho. They are smart enough to know that they are fighting for survival. I wish that this President was as smart as a moose.

Now you will probably try argue that Iraq is the best place for the moose to stand - precious few canyons where you cannot be out flanked - little brush - no water - good luck with that.

Posted by: Ray Guest at August 13, 2006 2:12 PM
Comment #175320

Ray,
To me the two links are in direct contradiction with each other. At least as far as the truth goes. The first one shows the suggestiveness of the Israel P.R. vs. “real’ damage done to the Palestinestains.

The second one show the suggestiveness of the PR of the Lebanese against Isreal.

They both show the major press organizations bowing done to pressure to show the public only what they are “SUPPOSED” to see.

I know CNN or Fox are highly slanted… now this appears to leave me up in the air about who’s coverage I might try to believe

Posted by: Linda H. at August 13, 2006 3:11 PM
Comment #175325

Jack,

So much for that good old American can-do philosophy. Jack, we have propped up every despot in the middle east for decades. Remember the Shah of Iran? We supported Sadaam. We are now reaping the arrogance of our back door policies. And both parties are to blame, not just the GOP.

Posted by: Loren at August 13, 2006 4:22 PM
Comment #175331

Ray

If the moose just hides in the water each time the wolves come, he will survive today, but eventually the wolves will get him. The wolves and the moose are codependent and coequal up in the boreal forest. The moose never expects to win. There is no safe place for the moose. His fate is to eaten by wolves. I don’t consider us to be in such a situation. I don’t want to run forever.

BTW in the quagmire (I suppose we are talking bog) the wolves cannot get the moose. They can run across some of the surfaces, but they cannot jump properly, while the moose can muscle his way through. The wolf pack that follows the moose into the bog has troubles. The best shot for the wolf is when the snow has a layer of ice on top, so that the wolf can run across it, but the moose falls through. This layer of ice is world public opinion, which allows the terrorist to run across with impunity while grabbing at everything we do.

Loren

Zero point four seven percent (0.47%) that is the amount of Saddam’s arsenal contributed by the U.S. If that was what propped him up, what did he need with the other 99.53% he got from the Soviets, French or even Brazilians, all of whom provided more than we did?

The Middle East was a mess before we got there. Some of our policies did not help mitigate the problem. Oil made the place important in ways it should not have been. We did trade stability for democracy and got neither ever since FDR met King Saud. You should be pleased then with the new Bush policy. As I said, you and the President agree on everything but a timetable.

BTW - the locals have been preying on us since the time of the Barbary Pirates. These guys used the same holy war rhetoric and had the same sort of state sponsors. It is nothing new.

Posted by: Jack at August 13, 2006 5:50 PM
Comment #175335

Jack,
Thanks for extending my metaphor again. We are getting a lot of mileage out of this poor old moose… I will answer later… But I think that this is headed down to another one of those situations where we will circle all the way back to where you started with your first post in this thread. We see the same moose, but we can’t agree on what he taste like…

Posted by: Ray Guest at August 13, 2006 6:21 PM
Comment #175408

Ray,
“I may be worshipping the dogma of my own logic.” Yes, that is the religious fundamentalism of the left. Or as the Good Book describes libs, “Ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

Posted by: Duane-o at August 14, 2006 8:11 AM
Comment #175428

Duane-o,
Thanks for understanding me so well. Now that you understand me, you are free to focus on improving your own self knowledge…

Jack,
It is was a good debate. We end where we started. You are using the literal definition of bog to extend my metaphor and say that Iraq is a good place for the U.S. to stand. Depending on the circumstances, a literal bog could be a good place for a literal moose to make its stand - but then the moose would not be bogged down. But in my metaphor, I did not say that the metaphorical moose was bogged down in a bog, I said that the hapless moose was “bogged down” in a “quagmire” - “land with a soft muddy surface” - the moose sinks in - the wolves float on top. You also pointed out that wolves and moose live in a dynamic balance and that you were unwilling to accept that as our fate. People have been using violence to achieve political ends since before recorded history. Our founding fathers, the founding fathers of Israel - including Menachem Begin would be classified as terrorist today. Our founding fathers were viewed as cowardly dogs by the British. Hiding in trenches and bushes and taking pot shots instead of standing rank and file like men - what cowardly dogs - cowardly dogs that won the war and founded a great nation… So there is a dynamic relationship between illegitimate political violence and political authority - and it will continue - at least until the sentient computers take over and put an end to this nonsense called humanity. The computers will probably just quietly provide us with such sublime porn that we stop breeding AND fighting and die out. The end is near.

Posted by: Ray Guest at August 14, 2006 11:56 AM
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