Democrats & Liberals Archives

Let China Do It

North Korea threatens the U.S. and tests several missiles to show that it could deliver its nuclear bombs to U.S. territory. What’s the response of our cowbody leader, the free world’s menace to Osama bin Laden, the same fellow who insisted that America does not ask permission of anyone to defend itself? Bush says he is using diplomacy and is depending on China to solve the problem.

All of a sudden, the gung-ho, belligerent and "bring em on" Republican administration is disavowing aggressive actions and talking nice.

"Hey China, we're in a jam, please help us out."

On Sunday, many powerful Republicans said it. Condi Rice dispatched Burns to Meet the Press, where he said:

"Frankly we think it's time for China to use its influence with North Korea. The Chinese have influence, certainly more than the United States and the other members of the international community, dealing with this problem. China now has an opportunity to put its best foot forward, to send the North Koreans a direct message that these missile tests cannot be tolerated."

On Face the Nation, Senator John McCain said the same thing:

"I believe that China is the key. They're the only ones that really have significant influence over North Korea. If we make it clear to China that we understand they're emerging on the world stage as a super power, they should behave like one and this will be a defining issue in our relations with China."

On Late Edition, Senator Lindsey sang from the same songbook:

"...the Chinese are the key to this."

It's amazing. Bush and the Republicans are saying that America has no "influence" or "significant influence." The Chinese are the "key," and not America? We can't take care of a crazy bully by ourselves? Something is wrong here. The administration must have been infiltrated with Democrats. How else to explain the absence of macho talk about defending our glorious land regardless of who objects.

We have been threatened by a madman. Sure his missiles did not work as he expected. But they may work next time, or the time after that. And Bush says

"Let China do it."

This is ridiculous. China is not our ally. We did not listen to our real allies when they said we should not invade Iraq, a country that did not threaten us. Now, we are submitting our future not to an ally but to an autocratic China. China is not on our side here. America must take matters into its own hands.

As Richardson, a Democrat who knows how to negotiate, said on Meet the Press, it's time for direct talks between North Korea and U.S.

Posted by Paul Siegel at July 10, 2006 5:37 PM
Comments
Comment #166384

Let’s not be so quick to criticize the administration on this, they have a valid point. Recall that the Arab League had to urge Syria to comply with the UN and withdraw from Lebanon before they finally did, this after years of the U.S. and Europeans making requests for the pullout. North Korea does not put nearly as much weight on requests from the United States as it does on requests from China.

Posted by: A Member of the Faithful Lads at July 10, 2006 5:54 PM
Comment #166385

NK is rattling away because of the light water reactor we gave Iran. Under Clinton, the US had promised the same technology to NK, but Bush recinded that promise when he took office. Obviously NK feels a little slighted seeing what they were promised given to Iran, so they are going to make some noise. If the US wants to get out of this without egg all over its face (again. becominga bit of a trend for Bushco’s foreign policy.) they will have to let someone else head the negotiations.

Posted by: David S at July 10, 2006 5:58 PM
Comment #166394

I posted this in the “Decisive Failure” topic. Guess it’s more appropriate here.

—-

South-Korea is a US ally, while North-Korea obviously isn’t: no diplomatic relations, no economic ties, etc. In the meantime SK and NK are learning to get along, with an eventual goal of unification of some sort to one Korea. SK’s “Sunshine Policy” towards NK is a clear example. Thousands of NKs are allowed to work in special trade zones in SK while NK tourist hotspots are reachable for SKs, etc.

Now, the US doesn’t really control that process, as a large majority of SK do not believe that NK would ever intend to harm them and hence openly support this Sunshine Policy.

China obviously loves this… as long as North-Korea remains an independent buffer between SK and China or as long as such a unification process does not create a situation where the whole Korean peninsula might become controlled/influenced by “large foreign powers”.

Where does this put us now?

Well, for one thing China will never ever succumb to having a U.S.-friendly puppet regime installed in Pyongyang. Ever! This would amount to the beginning of the end for China as a communist party-controlled state. Beijing, to say the least, will move a long way to not make that happen. This can only be the objective of U.S. foreign policy strategists… as long as its our way. Problem is China already has extreme leverage through its trade balance with the U.S. It produces on the cheap which keeps inflation at bay in the U.S. and has amassed $ gazillions in doing so, etc.

Japan’s hardliners need a reason to overcome the “problem” of having a pacifist constitution, hence not being able to engage in “pre-emptive national defense” cfr. the administration’s doctrine. In theory as well as in practice, U.S. forces can come “to the rescue” but Japan’s foces would not be able to return the favour. Therefore these hardliners will take every opportunity to stir in the NK-pot and drive things further to the edge. The U.S. administration doesn’t seem to mind, as long as Japan speaks the same lingo. Problem is Sino-Japan relations are not exactly friendly, nor are Korean(in general) views of Japanese foreign policy. And this goes a lot further than just skirmishing over sea borders and “misinterpreting” Japan’s WOII intrusions into the Asian mainland.

RESULT: A geopolitical quagmire. You know where it begins, but no one knows how it will turn out in the end. Just don’t bet on the regime change.


Posted by: Josh Grant at July 10, 2006 6:22 PM
Comment #166397

Frankly, Im afraid of North Korea. Seriously, KJI scares the poop out of me. Even if he cant deliver nukes, he is crazy enough to do *something*…

I agree that China isnt our ally, but what is the alternative? We are already militarily overextended, and I think even hawks would blanch at involving ourselves in another conflict that could turn regional. It sucks, but diplomacy really seems to be our only option, and we have already experienced the fact that North Korea won’t listen to the US. This is why we insist on having multiple nation talks. If (and a big if) we can get all the other nations to agree on a course of action, then we may have some leverage with North Korea.

I think in the end this too will fail. We are dealing with a dictator that literally starves his own citizens. I know assinations have been outlawed by international law, but sheesh - I wouldn’t mind if KJI caught a stray bullet…

Anyone else have any constructive ideas as to solving this?

Posted by: b0mbay at July 10, 2006 6:40 PM
Comment #166409

Guess the Clinton Admin folks who waved the big “We’ve handled the North Korea problem!” flag in 1994 finally realize that their big solution led to North Korea having nukes within 5 years.

Any program without verification is absurd and naive. And telegraphed & partial inspections (Hi Saddam!) won’t do any good either.

Posted by: Ken Strong at July 10, 2006 7:17 PM
Comment #166414

white bigot (it just doesn’t seem right just to write that),

“Yah so if Bush spins on north korea and turns them into a parking lot (as he should) then dear old Paul will call him a war monger and murderer.”

If Bush turned North Korea into a parking lot you could kiss your ass good-bye.
And he would be a murderer, and he would justly deserve any and all condemnation he receives, up until someone lit up Washington DC, and if he indeed start it, I would hope he is standing directly on top of ground zero and is the first to go.
This would be the single stupidest act by anyone in the short (4 billion years?) history of this planet.
And, of course there would be some group of morons sitting on the sidelines cheering and stomping their feet asking for more.

I just don’t get it.

And you know what?

I don’t want to.

Posted by: Rocky at July 10, 2006 7:33 PM
Comment #166415

Paul,

This seems to be another ‘Criticize Bush Even When He’s Right’. I think China is the key. I think if you learn more of this situation, you might agree. E.g.:

UN: Obvious Security Council Veto Power

Militarily: China came to military aid against US/UN in NKorea before. Do we REALLY want to Ignore/Offend China (e.g., as we/Clinton did before re bombing Serbia w/ zero UN resolutions)?

Economics: China can keep NKorea afloat as long as they want.

Multilateralism: NKorea is a problem to Japan, which could make them a Nuclear Japan, which China DEFINITELY DOES NOT WANT. How about we let China, Japan, SKorea, Russia, and ROW which are all (albiet secondary) Keys weigh in, instead of us going it alone?

VERSUS: OK, you say not to work through China, right? so … WHAT, EXACTLY, IS YOUR ALTERNATIVE??


China IS the Key, and Bush is right in noting this & trying to work w/ them.

Posted by: Brian at July 10, 2006 7:35 PM
Comment #166420

Brian,

This may be the first time I have ever agreed with you.

I believe China holds the key to North Korea, and any solution will live or die depending on China.

Posted by: Rocky at July 10, 2006 7:41 PM
Comment #166424

OH, and BTW,

Now that the Chinese virtually hold the pink slip to the US, we might want to pay attention to what they have to say about North Korea.

Posted by: Rocky at July 10, 2006 7:49 PM
Comment #166425

Very topically to NKorea & Kim Jong-il and Hawks & Doves, I strongly recommend the movie:
‘TEAM AMERICA: WORLD POLICE’

…to all those who can laugh at all sides of an issue (and who aren’t too squeamish, or offended by a v. graphic puppet sex scene).

Posted by: Brian at July 10, 2006 7:50 PM
Comment #166429

Bush is working multilaterally, trying to create a regional solution. This has been the Bush policy since the beginning. You advocate a unilateral approach.

Why should the U.S. speak one on one with N. Korea?

Posted by: Jack at July 10, 2006 8:07 PM
Comment #166430

The most useful thing that China could do is to open their border with North Korea, and allow those crossing to emigrate to South Korea. The same might possibly be done by Russia, with its less than 10 miles of border, on a smaller scale. All we need to care about are the people. If enough of them leave, their government will eventually collapse.

And the Google satellite maps are wonderful. It is the only part of their site that I use. The local ones, for where I live, are at least 5 years out of date. Korea looks very green.

http://maps.google.com/

Posted by: ohrealy at July 10, 2006 8:09 PM
Comment #166431

This is an easy one. We need China because our hands are tied by our illegal war in Iraq.

Ronnie Wright
US Army (Ret)

Posted by: Ronnie at July 10, 2006 8:19 PM
Comment #166435

Ok how many of the people that post here have been to South Korea? Yes the South and North are trying to cooperate with each other, but if you have never spend anytime in the DMZ, then you don’t know what you are talking about. The South is still worried about attacks from the North, but are working thru other means to maybe turn the North 180 degrees and be like the Iron Curtain, and let the people overturn the government.
On Bush and talking or Nukes, well a friend of mine said it this way. The UN to include the US,Britian, France, and China either has two choices to make, come down hard (and China probably has the most influence)and tell Kim to cool it or else and to follow thru with the or else. 2nd choice is to say welcome to the club, now play nice with your new toys or else.
Who are we or anyone else to tell a soverign country what they can or can’t do. Wait Bush did that and now we are stuck in a WAR that should have never happened in Iraq.

Posted by: KT at July 10, 2006 8:30 PM
Comment #166437

‘Bigot’:

- maybe consider changing your name

- I like the saying: “the real winner in a war, is the one who does not have to fight the battles”. If we can get our way w/o spilling our blood and spending our financial & polical capitals, why not try it.

To be honest, no, I don’t think they will try to nuke washington state (that & N.California (N.Korea’s closest ally) is all that is w/i their range).

The US is a Leader in the world. However, I feel that a wise Leader tries to impel, not compel, actions from others. If not the Koreans, maybe we can achieve this w/ our allies(?)

Posted by: Brian at July 10, 2006 8:38 PM
Comment #166440

“Hail the cowboys, screw the sheep.”

Yup. Sounds like texas.

Posted by: tony at July 10, 2006 8:51 PM
Comment #166443

white bigot,

“If you dont think Korea would hit washington first, you need to be at ground zero.”

Please, impress me.

Why would North Korea want to do that?

Why would North Korea want to make the first strike that would most likely be the last they ever make?

North Korea has what 5 nukes, maybe 10?

America has enough to burn the planet to a cinder.

And that’s probably only counting the submarines.

So, now it’s your turn.

Posted by: Rocky at July 10, 2006 9:07 PM
Comment #166444

“That cozy saying about the real winner of a war not fighting the battles is just another liberal excuse for what is known on the street as “lack of heart”

The real winner - not having to fight - is an example of using your brain. I’m guessing you might want to show them who could win a nuclear war…?

Posted by: tony at July 10, 2006 9:10 PM
Comment #166445

W.B.

Sorry - Im all for preemption as a matter of policy *IF* it makes sense. In this case it does not. Neither with Iran. Too much is at stake, including drawing the other players in the region into a conflict. What if Russia and China were vehemently opposed to force? We now have to face a 1 billion person army from China and a pissed off Russian bear???

Going to war is never an easy option, but a fundemental question of whether it is possible to win and at what cost needs to be asked.

While “turning north korea into glass” is fun to say, it is to simplistic and extremely naive.

Posted by: b0mbay at July 10, 2006 9:12 PM
Comment #166447

KT,

I have been to Korea.

If we do as White bigot suggests we can kiss South Korea good-bye as well.

Just what we need to do to our allies.

Posted by: Rocky at July 10, 2006 9:17 PM
Comment #166449

Rocky - exactly.

I would be all for a covert CIA/SPEC Ops to take him out if there was any possibility of success. Im sure this has been assessed by people with access to much more intelligence than any of us.

Negotiate with the other regional players. It’s the only option I see as having any chance of forward progress (albeit slim). KJI is truely a madman…

Posted by: b0mbay at July 10, 2006 9:27 PM
Comment #166450

b0mbay,

He may be a madman but he has to be getting his support from somewhere.

Exporting terrorism can’t possibly be enough to keep him in Cognac.

Posted by: Rocky at July 10, 2006 9:38 PM
Comment #166453

Rocky
Possibly the ACLU

Posted by: Ham at July 10, 2006 9:46 PM
Comment #166454

The Chinese and the Russians do business with PRK. That is why they don’t support sanctions (follow the money).

What i said earlier about the people of North korea are starving is absolutely true. The main reason being that KJI spends 25% of GDP on defense (2005) compared to South Korea who spent about 2.5%.

Here is an interesting site with a bit more information.

http://www.answers.com/topic/north-korea

Posted by: b0mbay at July 10, 2006 9:47 PM
Comment #166458

I have been to Korea—-$$$—-ya I bet you have south Korea. And so what, I have been to korea my self many times and it’s still a shit hole,and not becaus of the U.S.A. The night time sat pictures of north and south korea tell it all.Give the japs nukes and and let the chips fall where they may.Peace through superior fire-power.

Posted by: Angry White Capitalist Pig at July 10, 2006 10:03 PM
Comment #166459

Angry White Capitalist Pig,

“I have been to Korea—-$$$—-ya I bet you have south Korea.”

I was the asst. project manager for a 10 million project in Seoul. I spent most of ‘95 and ‘96 there.

You may have not enjoyed your stay, but I had mostly good time, and their money spends just like any other country’s.

I also spent 6 weeks in Dailin, China, about 50k from the North Korean border. I was there during the winter and it was just brutal. So cold the bay froze.
I can sympathize with the North Korean people (but certainly not the leadership), if they have to face that every year without the necessities to make it through the winter.

Posted by: Rocky at July 10, 2006 10:26 PM
Comment #166460

China IS the Key, and Bush is right in noting this & trying to work w/ them.

Posted by: Brian at July 10, 2006 07:35 PM


Might as well, every major American corporation is doing likewise with those feared and ungodly communist.

Posted by: expatUSA_Indonesia at July 10, 2006 10:44 PM
Comment #166461

In case anybody cares the UN has put off the vote for sanctions against North Korea to allow China to work whatever magic they can.

Posted by: Rocky at July 10, 2006 10:55 PM
Comment #166463

Paul,

Let’s assume the democrats are king for a day. Exactly what kind of diplomacy would you use in your direct negotiations with this nut case in NK? It’s pretty clear he is trying to shake us down but how much are you going to pay him and since he will never agree to any verifiable restrictions are you going to take him at his word (ala Clinton)? You have hammered the Pres on this issue lets hear more details on what you feel we should offer up in our direct diplomacy with NK.

Posted by: Carnak at July 10, 2006 11:34 PM
Comment #166470

Ive got it…

Lets resurrect Nixon (im sure we have some extra stem cell from aborted fetusus around), give him a ping pong paddle and some soju. That should bring KJI around…

Posted by: b0mbay at July 11, 2006 12:26 AM
Comment #166487

Paul,

What are you advocating here? Another war? Because the Texan has had a big ego then, he should uphold his own status quo?

This should’ve been predictable to all. Bush won’t attack Korea because Korea doesn’t have a huge oil reserve.

b0mbay,

“Frankly, Im afraid of North Korea. Seriously, KJI scares the poop out of me. Even if he cant deliver nukes, he is crazy enough to do *something*…”
I shall now let you in on a “secret”; The Bush Administration wants you to… be… AFRAID! That is how fascists rule: by FEAR!
So be afraid… be very afraid.

Just take a look at Bush’s boogeyman list.
al-qaida, the Taliban, Saddam, al-Zarqawi, al-Jazreera, Joseph Wilson, New York Times, Kim Jung Il

Not counting al-qaida,(Created during the Cold War by George H. W. Bush) which of these were a real threat to us (citizens, not corporations) prior to Bush’s warpath?

And Clinton got impeached for a blow job?

Posted by: ChristianLeft at July 11, 2006 2:23 AM
Comment #166489

If there is any good comming out of the Iraq war it is that our military is too busy to let the cowboy in chief get us into another Asian war.Possibly on a nuclear battlefield.Quite possibly involving China. The Chinese ALWAYS attack when their buffer states are threatened.
Talk,talk,talk is better than bomb,bomb,bomb anytime.

Posted by: BillS at July 11, 2006 2:30 AM
Comment #166497

“The right” knows perfectly well what they are doing. They are passing the hot potato, cutting down on the extreme rethorics and gaining leverage on the Chinese by using international pressure.

ps: This does not mean that they actually have a solution for (regime change in) NK. Rather dealing themselves a better geopolitical hand.

Posted by: Josh Grant at July 11, 2006 3:43 AM
Comment #166502

tony, nope that’s Montana. Texas killed all the sheep herds off.

Posted by: gergle at July 11, 2006 6:33 AM
Comment #166511

And Clinton got impeached for a blow job?—-$$$—-

KJI is ready to test fire again any minute now and shake us down again, not because of the cowboy,we can thank the blow-job boy for this one. The cowboy will handle it just fine,regardless of the hate filled treasonest left.

Posted by: Angry White Capitalst Pig at July 11, 2006 8:31 AM
Comment #166516

“This should’v been predictable to all. Bush won’t attack Korea because Korea dosen’t’t have a huge oil reserve.” Thank you ChristianLeft. Finally someone had the guts to say it.
Would it be wrong of me to point out that both times the Bush’s have been in charge we have been in wars with oil nations. Now why is that? Could it be because they are from oil family’s and are allies with most oil company’s? They and all their friends will profit big time? They even have strong connections with oil families in the middle east.(Binladins included) Needless to say if there was oil in NK we would have attacked there a long time ago. There just is not enough money there to justify it to his supporters. Like Rush say’s follow the money or does that only apply to Dem’s

Posted by: LyleNussbaum at July 11, 2006 9:07 AM
Comment #166526

Capitalist PIG,

Have you read the USA PATRIOT ACT? I have studied it intently. Unless it is “patriotic” to undermine the U.S. Constitution, George W. Bush and his crew of usurpers are guilty of treason against the American people.

The Presidential Oath of Office:
I do solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.

The USA PATRIOT ACT does everything but defend the Constitution. George W. Bush is guilty of treason.

Posted by: ChristianLeft at July 11, 2006 10:48 AM
Comment #166527

A message to all who support these wars:

Your country needs you! What are you doing home? There is a war on! Enlist now!

The Left backs up its peace rhetoric. Why does the Right not fight the war they advocate? There is also a class war in America: the poor die for the profits of the rich. That is the war they are busy fighting.

Posted by: ChristianLeft at July 11, 2006 10:53 AM
Comment #166529

‘Your country needs you! What are you doing home? There is a war on! Enlist now!’

Posted by: ChristianLeft at July 11, 2006 10:53 AM

Aldous? Is that you? or have you been cloned?

This thread shows the one thing many have been saying all along. It does not matter what Bush does, the left opposes it.

Exactly who would fill the void in NK if Il were to take a stray bullet? Warlords, drug kingpins, and rogue generals? Sounds like a plan.

The difference between NK and Iraq? The neighbors.

Posted by: bug at July 11, 2006 11:23 AM
Comment #166538


I often see comments on these posts indicating that we invade when oil is involved but don’t invade Korea because there is no oil……well no kidding. Its not because Bush is an oil man its because, to quote one of the heroes of the left, It’s the economy stupid. Yes oil is actually a strategic interest to us and our government will take strong actions to protect our interests. That in and of itself does not justify every action we take but I certainly don’t see a problem with taking our strategic interests into account as part of the decision making process.

Posted by: Carnak at July 11, 2006 12:02 PM
Comment #166541

Angry one: I think it is a pretty safe assumption that the Japanese have nukes. They have purchased plutonium previously and have an active nuclear power program. I’ll even bet their nukes are smaller and more fuel efficient that ours.

Posted by: BillS at July 11, 2006 12:07 PM
Comment #166542

It is now time for President Bush to offer Nukes to our allies.Turkey, Saudia Arabia, Kuwait,Britan, Japan, Taiwan, Austraila, New Zealand, South Korea. Russia and China will never support us and neither will the U.N. Russia and China would reel in these nuts so fast it would make there heads spin. We can have them there in hours and Russia and China know this. To think Iran and North Korea are years away is simply Naive. The U.S. developed there systems in less than 3 years. Iran and Korea have educated there scientists in the best universities for years in America and we did not have the computers of today in 1941.

Posted by: Jaybob at July 11, 2006 12:10 PM
Comment #166546

bug:

This thread shows the one thing many have been saying all along. It does not matter what Bush does, the left opposes it.

You are certainly correct in your statement as it relates to the author of this thread….dear Paul.
Paul has complained loudly, vociferously, and in my opinion, often ignorantly about how Bush only operates without any coalitions or any consideration for other countries.

Now that Bush is working with a group of countries and allowing their voices to be heard, Paul complains about that too.

When Bush moves right, Paul whines that Bush didn’t move left. When Bush moves left, PAul whines that Bush didn’t move right. Its a simple game:

Step 1: Wait for Bush to make a move on something..anything.

Step 2: Complain about whatever it is that Bush did.

Step 3: Never ever make a statement before Bush makes his move, because then you might be locked into a position that isn’t necessarily anti-Bush.

Its a silly game, but many play it well.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at July 11, 2006 12:27 PM
Comment #166549

Chrstianleft:
The Bush Administration wants you to… be… AFRAID! That is how fascists rule: by FEAR!
So be afraid… be very afraid.

I am more afraid of KJI and his NUKES!!! Starting a regional war that would drag in China, Japan, South Korea and possibly Russia SCARES THE POOP OUT OF ME! Not Bush…

This situation has nothing to do with class war or your hatred for the right. Please dont bring up that rhetoric with this particular situation, as it is SERIOUS!

BillS says it best:

The Chinese ALWAYS attack when their buffer states are threatened.
Talk,talk,talk is better than bomb,bomb,bomb anytime.

I dont think KJI understands what Mutual Assured Destruction means. He is crazy enough to use Nukes and we know this. This is why we havent attacked. If we bomb PRK, we have to hit all his silos or else he launches at the South, Japan, and god forbid the US on the west coast. You can bet your sweet ass that we have our own nuke subs parked all over the region.

This is SERIOUS - stop bringing up class war, how much Bush sucks, oil…etc cause it doesnt apply to this situation. Save it for another thread.

Posted by: b0mbay at July 11, 2006 12:33 PM
Comment #166552

JBOD
Don’t forget that there is a good chance a Dem will be our next President and that korea and iran will then be their problem.
As the left probably thinks Bush won’t do anything because of the upcoming elections, they better start justifying the possible war THEIR guy may be responsible for.

Posted by: kctim at July 11, 2006 12:45 PM
Comment #166556
Ok how many of the people that post here have been to South Korea?

I served in the 2nd Infantry Division at Camp Howze South Korea. Loved the food. Loved the women. Hated the assignment. We were always going on alert and worked six days each week. DMZ duty sucked.

Ronnie Wright
US Army (Ret)

Posted by: Ronnie at July 11, 2006 12:55 PM
Comment #166560

Carnak et al: Refreshing you admit we are fighting for oil. It is obvious but seldom admitted by the right. Tie a yellow ribbon around a gas pump.
What I find appalling is that the administration,as part and parcel of the oil structure, is unwilling and unable to seriously develope alternative sources of energy. They are playing a geopolitical game with American lives and treasure that even if successful causes extreme enviormental damage and will fail eventually when the oil runs out. Even their token hydogen program requires the conversion involve oil when water would work also. A genuine national program in partnership with the private sector to achieve fossil fuel reduction would be cheaper,save countless lives ,provide an economic boom, increase world wide stability, and protect the enviorment. We will probably spend a trillion dollars in Iraq alone. Had that been spent productively we would become the world leader in new energy production. Imagine that. We would actually have something to sell to the rest of the world besides weapons.
Nearly as appalling is a fact I found out in the red column. Seems the 2nd largest oil reserve is in Canada. The Canadaians have already said publicly they would be happy to sell us oil and we do not need to deal with despots. The administration knows this. What that means is that our oil wars are not to keep us supplied so much as they are to keep other countries from gettiing supplies. If their own sons and daughters were being killed and mutallated I doubt very much they would be playing what amounts to a game.

Posted by: BillS at July 11, 2006 1:09 PM
Comment #166562

The Cowboys are on the other side. When Perry and Carter were in a position to do something they instead wanted to bribe North Korea. Now suddenly they want to bomb them??? Bush has been consistent with the North. 6 party talks or no talks at all. If CHina does not solve the problem we willbe happy to help the Japanese acquire a significant nuclear arsenal. NO more bribes for the North Koreans, no more Clinton appeasement.

Posted by: Phil at July 11, 2006 1:17 PM
Comment #166564

BoMbay: Thanks. I never thought to see you quote me. You are right.This is serious. Seems to me our game should be to keep NK contained any way possible. Eventually,and it may take many years, NK and SK will be re-united. The artificial borders existance is only a brief moment in Koreas history and will not last. A communist monarchy is also a precarious anathema. Bribery does not bother me in particular. We use it all over the world. This is a waiting game.I can not help but believe that if we were not pinned down in Iraq Bush would be more likely to use a military option but at any rate whether he has been forced to or not he is is on the right track on this one. Enough monkeys on enough typwriters will eventually write War and Peace.

Posted by: BillS at July 11, 2006 1:40 PM
Comment #166568

This is entirely speculative. What if the fee China charges for intervention with NK is that the US stops its attempt to lock up the mid-east oil supply or at least share it with China? Could that have been the entire aim of NK’s weapons program from the start?

Posted by: BillS at July 11, 2006 2:09 PM
Comment #166571

Carmak & joebagadonuts:

I am not playing games. I criticize Bush for being too eager to go to war without giving diplomacy a chance.

In this post I tried to show the contrast between how Bush handled Iraq, which is not a threat, and North Korea, which is a big threat.

I believe in talk, diplomacy. We have been threatened and we should talk for ourselves with North Korea. It’s silly to say we will not.

I’m not against 6-party talks. Bilateral talks will ease the way to 6-party talks.

Posted by: Paul Siegel at July 11, 2006 2:20 PM
Comment #166577

Paul
How can you talk to somebody and be diplomatic if the party don’t want to talk. There will be fighting in the middle east until the end of time. If NK wants to talk I’m sure China as an allie of NK will pave the way MAYBE and I mean that as a big MAYBE.

Posted by: Rich at July 11, 2006 2:36 PM
Comment #166589

Paul,

Plus despite the critics, Iraq is winnable. Couple that with the fact that the US can achieve several key objectives (depose a despot, destroy WMD capabilities, foster democracy in the region…etc) add up in the FOR WAR category.

Unacceptable losses with a low probability of success, while destabilizing the region…

ummm yeah, lets let China see if they can smack KJI pp around first.

This isnt about Bush or Republicans, this is about the possibility of Nuclear War. Believe it.

Posted by: b0mbay at July 11, 2006 3:25 PM
Comment #166593

“I served in the 2nd Infantry Division at Camp Howze South Korea. Loved the food. Loved the women. Hated the assignment. We were always going on alert and worked six days each week. DMZ duty sucked.”

“Ronnie Wright, US Army (Ret)”

My hat’s off to you sir. Would you please explain to those who don’t have a clue here, who exactly provided the greatest military aid to those you were fighting against. Unless I’m mistaken it was and it’s always been the Chinese. Sure there was aid coming from the USSR also, but mostly China.

How many of you are too young, too ill educated, or simply too “thick” to recognize or remember the term “Red Chinese”! It’s easy to look at North Korea and “talk big” which is exactly what Bush did following 9-11. For decades we’ve been trying to “cool” the rhetoric between ourselves and China, but China is far from being our ally.

I believe the hope has been that sooner or later China will come around to the idea that peace + capitalism = prosperity, and that this prosperity can only continue while living in peace. A nuclear war between us and China would spell the end of the world. That said China shares one thing besides a border with North Korea: COMMUNISM.

Again, for decades we’ve approached this situation with caution in hopes that China will see the light, yet all the while knowing that China is no ally, in hopes that hostilities will continue to cool so we can all live and let live.

Now, enter W. What a freakin’ idiot. He basically declares war on an “Axis of Evil” but takes action against only the weakest link in that Axis. And there is no real link between North Korea and Iraq so Kim Jong Il could care less about what “dumb-ass-George” says. Need I mention that Kim is a bit freakin’ loony.

Basically what Bush & Co. accomplished equates to picking a scab off and letting the infection grow rather than applying a poltice and slowly drawing out the infection. Now we’re thinking about beefing up our bases in Japan with nuclear missiles and the Japanese are even thinking of once again building a military force capable of taking the offensive.

Thanks W! Oh, I must also applaud this yo-yo head for reporting that the deficit is projected to be less than anticipated. Sort of reminds me of my son calling from college and saying, “Hey Dad! I was only $300.00 overdrawn this month.” Yeah, that was an accomplishment, he’d been $500.00 overdrawn the previous month.

You’re doin’ a great job Bushy boy. Condi for pres ‘08. I nominate Dick Cheney for the nobel peace prize!

Make me puke, why don’t ya!

KansasDem


Posted by: KansasDem at July 11, 2006 4:09 PM
Comment #166595

“Bush has been consistent with the North.”

Yeah, Phil, consistently wrong. Not all men are created equal. Some are just consistently wrong.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 11, 2006 4:14 PM
Comment #166598

For Ronnie Wright,
I was at Camp Humphreys, Camp Red Cloud, and lastly at Camp Howze. I do know where you are coming from and those that never been there and make their statements, What BS

KT
US Army Retired

Posted by: KT at July 11, 2006 4:24 PM
Comment #166600

“Plus despite the critics, Iraq is winnable.”

Bombay,

We won a long time ago. Remember the “Mission Accomplished” banner? What we’re involved in now is an undermanned occupation of Iraq. Now we have two choices: (1) We can continue the occupation or (2) we can end the occupation.

If we choose (1) we need to reinstate the draft.

Step #1 in acheiving either goal is getting rid of Bush and his fellow idiots!

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 11, 2006 4:30 PM
Comment #166601

—joebagodnuts— Any person who lives under a
Vail of secrecy’s such as President Bush does can
not be trusted nor from his past 5 years of known
telling of fabrications, can he be believed. How can his staunchest defenders, who may or may not believe
in his supposedly good character and truthfulness, continue to try to enlist the rest of us in this folly of self destruction? This is truly
a waste of your time an effort. No Spin required

Posted by: DAVID at July 11, 2006 4:37 PM
Comment #166603

Iraq is winnable, gee I heard that one before but it was for a war called Vietnam, and finally after 25yrs of being in Nam and 59000+ death’s, the US finally pulled out.
If Iraq doesn’t seem a lot like Nam you need to take a close look at both.

Posted by: KT at July 11, 2006 4:40 PM
Comment #166614

KT, US Army Retired,

I applaud you, and my hat’s off to you also. May I ask who supplied the majority of the weapons you were trained to fight against? I know back in the late 60’s and early 70’s we were taught what weapons we might be facing and I imagine that has remained part of the training.

I at least imagine that most of the enemies weapon’s were provided by China. I don’t KNOW that but I strongly suspect that. Only someone who’s “been there and done that” can KNOW.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 11, 2006 5:10 PM
Comment #166638

KansasDem - 2 weeks and a row and we are in agreement (mostly). The blue moon continues.

If North Korea is spending 25% of its GDP on defense (military industrial complex), where is the money going??? Oh that’s right over the border to China or maybe even the *reformed* Reds in the USSR.

We can’t engage in another war - especially this one. Bush would get lynched if he even mentions draft. SO what alternatives do we have? I am again in agreement with you. The Axis of evil comment was foolish to make publicly. Great sound bite (a la reagan’s “tear down this wall” speech).

To quote one of my favorite movies:

“It’s a big shit sandwich, and we’re all gonna have to take a bite”.

The one thinkg that I will say is that - the world is a scary place and it is getting scarier. Look at todays bombing in India! I wonder what someone else would do in Bush’s shoes if elected prior to 9/11. Forget the argument that Bush is enabling terrorism. I don’t buy that argument. I think that terrorists had an agenda before bush (USS Cole bombing, Embassies in Africa, 1st bombing of the world trade…etc). These were all before Bush! Nor am I going to buy into the argument that it is Clinton’s fault that we didn’t wipe out Al Quaida when we had a chance. Terrorism is here to stay. I don’t see this “war” ending in my lifetime.

Pretty scary stuff, don’t you agree?

Posted by: b0mbay at July 11, 2006 6:34 PM
Comment #166670

bombay,

There’s one problem with your argument. Tony Snow said, “Clinton, “went with flowers and chocolates, and he went with light-water nuclear reactors … and a basketball signed by Michael Jordan and many other inducements for the ‘dear leader’ to try to agree not to develop nuclear weapons, and it failed.”

Well, kiss my ass! He diverted war.

We had to sit and listen to “Condi ‘08 Rice” explain to the 9-11 commission how the administration was in some kind of a freakin’ learning curve and they couldn’t possibly have paid enough attention to see a memo about Bin Laden attacking the USA because there was simply too much “intel” crossing the desk every day.

Well, kiss me and call me Daffy Duck! There may have been too much intel crossing the desk but there sure as hell wasn’t any intelligence sitting around the desk and there still isn’t!

Hells bells, I’ll bet the White House janitorial staff has a higher IQ average than this admenstruation.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 11, 2006 8:20 PM
Comment #166672

KD

Where does it stop tho? Its like giving the bully your lunch money - you might not get beat up that day, but tomorrow?

I think multinational diplomacy is the way to go with PRK. At least if we can hold the region accountable for whatever is negotiated, there might be a chance of containg KJI (especially if china is part of the consensus.)

your thoughts?

Posted by: b0mbay at July 11, 2006 8:25 PM
Comment #166683

KD, well being drafted during the Nam era, and growing up during the Cold War, most of the weapons we were told we would go up against/learned about were USSR origin or from a satellite country. SKS, AK’s. Sounds like we might have been in around the same time frame. I was in Howze between 1989-1990 (my last oversea’s duty, and hated everyday of it). First time in Korea they were still paying with MPC.

Posted by: KT at July 11, 2006 8:51 PM
Comment #166696

“Its like giving the bully your lunch money”

or having him blow up the school, and then his buddy will blow up the city, and then their gang will blow up the world.

Bombay,

The problem’s huge. It’s hardly something that began during the past few administrations. And it involves much more than North Korea or even China (but China’s enough). Sure our gang is bigger and tougher than their gang and we could kill them all, but in the process it’s quite likely we’ll end life on this planet.

The first thing Bush did wrong was to publicly condemn North Korea like a drunken cowboy on Saturday night. The second thing he did wrong was try to keep up the front until the bully showed up on his front step. Now he (and WE) look like a bunch of pussies (sorry for the bad words but anything milder just doesn’t fit).

Now he, and his buddies, pop out trying to deflect things by pointing fingers at something that happened over 6 years ago and by bragging that we’re not as far overdrawn as he thought we’d be. Bush is a boob, plain & simple.

My apology to boobs everywhere.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 11, 2006 9:37 PM
Comment #166700

KT,

As you say, a person can only know what they live and I was never in South Korea, but history tells me: “when Kim’s regime was nearly extinguished in the fall of 1950, the Soviet Union did very little to save it—China picked up the pieces.”

that’s from: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/north_korea1.htm

But as I looked you were right, the Soviets were the greatest suppliers of weapons, both during and after the Korean War. I think you get my point though, China has been picking up the peices since 1950 and we can’t kick the crap out of North Korea without expecting a fight from China.

China has us by the shorthairs and Bush just gave them a firmer grasp.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 11, 2006 9:57 PM
Comment #166715

We all know what Iran and North Korea want: ironclad public guarantees that the United States will stop advocating regime change by force or
any other means in their countries in exchange for ironclad guarantees to abandon their nuclear weapons ambitions. Without those guarantees all the trade packages and other pot sweeteners in the world won’t get them to sign on the dotted line. Unless Kim Jong Il and the Iranian mullahs are
assured there won’t be US missiles or special forces knocking on their doors in the middle of the night they have nothing to talk about
because they know we don’t attack countries with real nuclear weapons. Those guarantees can’t be provided by Chinese and Russian proxies.
They can only be provided by the President of the US because he is the threat. If Bush is really serious about US and international security he’ll make that deal. He may not like it but thanks to his occupation of Iraq his other options range from impractical to disastrous.

Posted by: markg8 at July 12, 2006 1:06 AM
Comment #166718

Plenty of blame to go around and it goes back farthur than Bush2 or Clinton. Russia was fighting Jihadist years before 9/11. They sent school teachers into Afganistan. Those teachers had the gall to start teaching women. The mullahs had their heads cut off. Russia retaliated. The mullahs retalieted. It grew. The Russians invaded full force. We were still fighting the cold war and gleefully started providing the Jihadist with training and stingers. The jihadist won. Now we get to face the monster we created.In hindsight we should have been arming the Russians. Another reason not to trust our CIA. Yeah,the same one that told us we had to buy more weapons systems to conter the growing military build up by Russia at the same time Russia was collapsing. Who’s side are those on.If they are on ours maybe we can get them to switch. Then we might win.

Posted by: BillS at July 12, 2006 1:09 AM
Comment #166762

Just a stray thought…

China has us by the shorthairs and Bush just gave them a firmer grasp.

KansasDem

China has always had a grip on us. Just look at trade: How many things in China say “made in U.S.A.” on them? Yet I see American flags with “made in China” printed on them.

Posted by: ChristianLeft at July 12, 2006 10:34 AM
Comment #166814

ChristianLeft,

Before I was forced to stop driving I bought a couple of those magnetic “yellow ribbons”. The package clearly said, “Made in USA”.

When I opened them up, the backs of the magnets were stamped, “Made in China”.

Sheesh.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 12, 2006 12:51 PM
Comment #166840

KansasDem— Just think how much fun it is to ride
on these foreign operated toll roads, and driving
these foreign cars, with foreign gassan oil. Their might even be foreign road signs written in Chinese broken English, Shees, Our future looks really grotesque yuk. Haven’t talked at you lately, how are you. A friend Dave!

Posted by: DAVID at July 12, 2006 2:35 PM
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