Democrats & Liberals Archives

Hamas is a Terrorist Organization

I hear a lot of people - unfortunately, too many on the left - say that Israel is behaving badly by attacking Hamas. They claim that by invading Gaza, Israel is overreacting to the kidnapping of one Israeli. Poor Hamas, they say, they are poor and they are suffering and they have no real power, so they do violent acts.

Israeli-Palestinian peace will never be achieved, they say, if Israel is so violent. For these people, I quote excerpts from the Covenant of Hamas, the movement's constitution and platform, as presented by the New Republic (7/10&17, 2006):

"In the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate ... the People of the Scripture [i.e., Jews and Christians] ... most of them are evil-doers ...

Israel will ... remain ... until Islam eliminates it ... [Hamas] strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine ... [Salvation] will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! ... [Hamas] believes that the land of Palestine has been an islamic Waqf [sacred trust] throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it ... as long as Heaven and earth last ... Hamas regards Nationalism (Wataniyya) as part and parcel of the religious faith. Nothing is loftier ... whan waging Jihad against the enemy ... [Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of [Hamas]. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion ... There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad ... When our enemies usurp some Islamic lands, Jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims ... I indeed wish to go to war for the sake of Allah! I will assault and kill, assault and kill, assault and kill... "

What Hamas says does not sound very different from what Al Qaeda says. We, in the U.S. say we must go after and destroy Al Qaeda. Israel says the same about Hamas. Both Al Qaeda and Hamas are terrorist organizations.

Some say Hamas may change. Israel doubts this, but it is willing to give it a chance. However, when Hamas attacked and kidnapped an Israeli, what should have been their response? Should they have shrugged and said "Please don't do this again"?

Yes, I am for the underdog. All Americans root for the underdog. However, Hamas is not an underdog but a wild dog, a terrorist organization.

Posted by Paul Siegel at July 6, 2006 7:52 PM
Comments
Comment #165482

Two politically incorrect thoughts.

1. The Palestinians were there first.

2. Jews fighting Muslims….I guess they both need Jesus.

Posted by: Darrius Cole at July 7, 2006 2:39 PM
Comment #165504

Paul,

For the first time, I agree with you 100%…

I’m glad that Darrius added the incorrect thoughts.

Posted by: Cliff at July 7, 2006 3:21 PM
Comment #165506

I would also point out that I dont have to support Hamas to not support what Isreal is doing right now. It is completly without proportion and honestly verging on a war crime.

Posted by: justin at July 7, 2006 3:30 PM
Comment #165511

Do you agree with these current actions against Hamas Paul?

Posted by: kctim at July 7, 2006 3:48 PM
Comment #165517

I agree 100% Paul. And yes I would do exactly as Israel is doing..Best of luck to them.

But then I have been called a hawk.

Posted by: Tom D. at July 7, 2006 4:30 PM
Comment #165518

Israel needs to try to win the war politically not just militarly. That mean’s exposing the Muslim countries who founding terrorism by calling them out in UN or using Jewish Media influence to make the world aware. The action by Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, PRC starts and ends with them. Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arab, Quartar, others nations need to be held accountable for funding terrorism.

Posted by: Dan G. at July 7, 2006 4:32 PM
Comment #165520

The way I see it, this is a war being fought over deep emotional wounds from generations ago that have piled up through the ages. We, as a country, should have no position in this, because there is so much blood on both sets of hands. I know that war is rarely as cut and dry as good v. evil, but in this case there is no good to be found. There may be legal questions involved, treaties signed and broken, and questions pertaining to rights of sovereignty, but there is no way to find right or wrong.

I think something that people lose site of is the evolution of warfare and what that has done to any non-military force. In the days of the French and American Revolutions, the weapons and technology available to the Army were equal to that available to the citizens. A government could be overthrown if it was the will of the people, and we celebrate those that rose up to fight for their independence. In today’s world, that is no longer an option. No revolutionary force will ever be as well armed as an official military again. What would our founding fathers have done if they were so horribly outgunned? I certainly hope they would have found another way, but I have no idea what that might be.

Posted by: David S at July 7, 2006 4:38 PM
Comment #165521

It is wearisome how “the left” consistently takes the Palestinian position Re: Israel.

First: Israel is the ONLY democratic country in the Middle East, bar none. The Hamas-led gangsters who WANT TO ELIMINATE iSRAEL AND ALL ITS PEOPLE HAS ONLY RE3CENTLY BEEN REAFFIRMED.

NOW, WHEN PEOPLE ARE ORGANIZED TO ELIMINATE YOUR COUNTRY AND PEOPLE, AND THEY LIVE NEXT DOOR, AND MURDER AN iSRAELI HITCHHIKER THERE IS HARDLY ANYTHING THAT IS AN “DISPRPORTIONATE” IN RESPONSE!

And let us ALL remenber that Israel HAS BEEN UNDER SWEIGE FOR 60 YEARS!!! After 60 years of promised slaughter of its citizens. no country would tolerate the slaughterings without a poerful response.

And, lest we forget, Israel has been subjected to attack after attack by war-starting Arabs who exercise their fellow Arabs’ hatred of Jews from birth as taught in their schools.

Please note: it is to the great benefit of all the anti-democratic Arab countries to keep their people filled with hatred vs Israel and Jews …for the purpose of diverting their populations from the anti-democratic nature of their fascist leaders. And the Palestinians are their “mcguffin”,,,used to PREVENT any change in their own coutries from their dictatorships.

Jordan itself wiped out Palestinians who wanted to live in peace in its western part…putting these Palestinians into detention camps…where also Syria has “housed” Palestinians in “camps” instead of assimilating them into their sopciety…pupopsely to KEEP the Palestinians as “victimized” and in poverty and uneducated except for infusing them with hatred vs Israel.

Looks like this Arab fascism has worked with our lefties. And add in the “natural” anti-semitism alive and well in Europe AND america.

And THERE we have these “lefties.”

Israel was created under the auspices of the United Nations in 1946. A place was offered to all and any “Palestinians” (no such “Palstinians” were EVER a country of “Palestine.”)who didn’t want to stay in the newly cxreatede state, but were told (again by their fascistic Sheiks, etc.), that they should leave so the Israelis could bve drowned in the Mediterranean sea).

Since then, Syria and Jordan have kept these “Palestinians” in internment camps to this day refusing to absorb them into their own societies.

All this in an area where Israel has a population of 6 million…while the surrounding Arabs are 350 million strong threatening to slaughter the Israelis!

Considering Israel’s 60 years under seige by Arabs, Israel’s responses have been very mild.

Consider: if Mexico and/or Canada threatened to slaughter our own population and conducted several wars (killing include)plus suicide bombers slaughtering children, men, women, babies at Pizza parlors, on buses, and other gathering places. And continued to do this FOR 60 YEARS!!…including the murders of thousands of US citizens……No response by USA…or a “proprtional” response.”

Please….

Posted by: Art Dolin at July 7, 2006 4:41 PM
Comment #165523

Darrius Cole,

Uh, I hate to crush your illogical bias but Jesus was a Jew.

Actually do a little historical search on the plight of the Hebrew people throughout history. The old testament isn’t a bad place to start.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 7, 2006 4:48 PM
Comment #165524

Darrius,

It is politically correct to say the Palestinians were there first. However, when was “first” and where is “there”? It’s politcally correct to say this because it is politically correct and even acceptable in too many circles to be anti-Israel.

The both need Jesus…truer words were never spoken.

Posted by: ILIndCon at July 7, 2006 4:50 PM
Comment #165526

This is just another drop in an overflowing bucket. Hamas is responsible for what goes on in its borders. If it can’t keep its own military wing subdued and the other militia forces, then they have to face the consequences.

Israel’s response is 100% appropriate, because when you are dealing people who send women and children to blow themselves up as military strikes, there is no avenue of dignity and honor available in this sort of conflict: you simply do what is necessary to survive against people who make it a religion to destroy you.

Posted by: Jacob in SC at July 7, 2006 5:10 PM
Comment #165527

Jews don’t NEED Jesus. He was a terrific Rabbi who preached good approaches to life…but it ALL could be summarized with a statement/way of life in ALL religions:

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

That is said to beand IS the basic law of the Jewish people.

If you try it out, it is pretty basic… and a guideline for a life rewarding to yourself and others. Yes, nobody is perfect…nor should anybody aspire themselves or expect that frrom anybody else. Rather, it is a guide for living that is in line with all religions…in the inevitable imperfection of mankind, a situation that allows us all to grow better.

No thrests of hell or purgatory.There is no promise of reward after death for perfected/exemplary behavior. It is sufficient unto itself. Doing well for our felow mankind is its own reward.

Posted by: Art Dolin at July 7, 2006 5:16 PM
Comment #165529

The Israeli army hunted terrorists in the West Bank city of Jenin in the Spring of 2002 and the killings on both sides were sizable: 23 Israeli soldiers and 52 Palestinians. According to Human Rights Watch, this was a criminal event, even though Israel’s actions were a military tactic of house to house searches designed to avoid large scale killings and killings in error. The press compared Jenin with the holocaust. This trope was massively accepted around the world.

Hamas is a terrorist organization who has pledged to kill every Israeli. Bartering with them would be like bartering with Al Qaeda. The Palestinians in general have refused every kind of peace agreement, including Clinton’s negotiated offer of almost half of Israel’s land. There is absolutely no satisfying a group that is hell bent on mass murder and who refuses to negotiate in their own peaceful interests. These people have posters in kindergarten classrooms glorifying suicide bombers.

Capitulating with terrorists is the same as appeasing Nazis. It doesn’t work. And, no, I don’t use that analogy lightly. Hamas and Al Qaeda are very similar to Nazis; they believe in their own racial and religious superiority as well as ethnic cleansing. Their intellectual forefathers forthrightly admired the Nazis. They wrote frankly about this admiration until world opinion polarized.

I would no more trust a Palestinian than I would a psychopathic serial killer. I do not sympathize in any way with Palestinians, nor do I understand any of the arguments for doing so. If you are going to say they want peace, or land, or respect, I would say they have been offered all of that. If anything, from my perspective, Israel has been far to kind to this group of murderous thugs preying on their civilization.

I am a Democrat. What sets the civilized nations apart from the fascistic ones is that we have respect for one another’s beliefs and can live in harmony with our differences. We can agree to disagree without killing one another. We come to make mutual international agreements and abide by them. We do not force our beliefs on other people. In other words, we are an international liberal community.

Some Republicans in this thread complain about Democrat positions undermining our war against terror, but I say look to yourselves. It is your president that wants to cast this war as Christian versus Muslim as oppossed to world versus fascists, the Republican party that argues we should install the ten commandments in our senate, and the current administration who listens in on its own citizens, tortures indiscriminately, and breaks the international promises it makes. The problem is Republicans are more like terrorists, and that undermines our ability to convince the world and Arabs at large that we are on the side of right.

Posted by: Max at July 7, 2006 5:37 PM
Comment #165534

Art,

It’s just patronizing nonsense to say that Jesus was a “terrific Rabbi.” He made some extraordinary claims about himself and you need to decide what to do about those claims.

So he’s gotta be crazy, self-deceived, or he is the Messiah. If he is such a terrific rabbi I would assume you don’t think he’s crazy or self-deceived (and by extension a deceiver because he wanted people to follow him). In these cases, he’d be a horrible rabbi. So I think you are left with just one conclusion. Right?

By the way, the Muslims, who are Gentiles, have been fighting this for centuries too. Funny, they think he was a prophet.

Posted by: ILIndCon at July 7, 2006 5:53 PM
Comment #165539

“I am a Democrat. What sets the civilized nations apart from the fascistic ones is that we have respect for one another’s beliefs and can live in harmony with our differences. We can agree to disagree without killing one another. We come to make mutual international agreements and abide by them. We do not force our beliefs on other people. In other words, we are an international liberal community.”

Amen Max! I’d been trying to word an appropriate response and found myself “wordless”, but you’ve done so with excellence.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 7, 2006 6:03 PM
Comment #165541

Paul,

I hear a lot of people - unfortunately, too many on the left - say that Israel is behaving badly by attacking Hamas. They claim that by invading Gaza, Israel is overreacting to the kidnapping of one Israeli. Poor Hamas, they say, they are poor and they are suffering and they have no real power, so they do violent acts.

I dunno if what Israel is doing is attacking Hamas, but I do know that kids are killed in Palestine right now. I don’t care that much for any israelis and palestinian adults because they elected their leaders, they deserves what come with. They get 50+ years to fix their issues and they failed. Again. And again. And again.
After such long time, I really consider both sides as equaly responsible for it and I don’t even hear their “but they start first!” childish whims.
Adults in that region of the world had at least one chance to choose better leaders really after reaching peace. They didn’t, they pay the price for that and they can’t tell anymore they didn’t know the price.

But not the kids. Who’s standing up to say someone should save them from man madness here???
How many generation of kids should be sacrificied until we stop this bloodbath?

Oh, and if by standing with the kids lock in the hell of Gaza (and West Bank) get me being called pro-terrorist then I’ll very proud being name-called that.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at July 7, 2006 6:05 PM
Comment #165543

And the tragedy continues. Mitochondrial DNA evidence indicates a close ancestry between Jews and Arabs. This is a family feud. Isreal does not recognize a marriage between an Arab and a Jew. There are Arabs in the Israeli legislature but an Arab will never become prime minister. At some point Israel will have to find a way to get along with its nieghbors.
The troubles there are an example of just how important the separation of church and state are. Instead of a Jewish state how about a state where Jews, as well as others,are protected. Instead of an Islamic state how about a state where muslums as well as others are protected.Jewish culture survived the holocaust. It will certainly survive a secular state. Hammas uses terror. The Zionist use terror. They are both wrong. Do you really think the God of Abraham smiles on his sons and daughters killing each other?

Posted by: BillS at July 7, 2006 6:18 PM
Comment #165544
It’s politcally correct to say this because it is politically correct and even acceptable in too many circles to be anti-Israel.

Being against some Israel policy is not being anti-semite. As being against some US policy is not being anti-christians and being against some Arabs nation policy is not being anti-muslims.

Check your definition.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at July 7, 2006 6:22 PM
Comment #165545

I’m with Philippe. It’s very sad for the children on both sides. The situation of the Palestinians is dire. I think the US should side with the peacemakers on both sides. It’s current approach merely advatages the right-wing Israeli hawks over everyone else including the Israeli moderates. How many have refused to serve? Remember the Palestinian who gave his deceased daughter’s organs to benefit three Israeli families. Violence isn’t the answer. Israel is militarily far stronger than the Palestinians. They must not use their strenght to react in a disproportionate fashion to the threat. The fact that someone’s great aunt died in the Holocaust is not an excuse for shooting a stone throwing child. Terrorism is bad, state terrorism is bad. The US citizenry need to stop seeing the issue as some kind of extension of it’s own terrorism threat…it’s far more complex than that.

You must act as an honest broker and stop taking sides. If you must side with anyone side with the peacemakers…they are the only hope for the future of Israel and Palestine.

Posted by: abhcoide at July 7, 2006 6:24 PM
Comment #165546

Philippe Houdoin,

I seldom find myself in disagreement with you, but honestly what are the Israeli’s to do?

They have two clearly defined options: (1)fight for your right to exist as a nation or (2)leave the continent and/or die.

Not much of a choice. Why are the Israeli’s so reviled? Why are there still anti-semitic groups in the USA? I guess I’ll never get it.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 7, 2006 6:27 PM
Comment #165548

Paul,

Well Written article ; p

Philippe,

No one wants tosee kids killed, thats a universal belief….

But i see you fail to mention the kids killed in Isreal? Car bombs, bus bombs, bycycle bombs, Mortars and rockets launched haphazardly into Isreal time and time again, bombs on young men and old women to blow up anyone within range. Thw pictures a few years back of infants dressed as suicide bombers…. where is the outcry? yes Isreal isn’t perfect either, but i don’t recall the last time one of their ppl loaded a vest fully of ball bearings and snuck into palistine and blew a busful of ppl up

Posted by: RHancheck at July 7, 2006 6:30 PM
Comment #165551

On my thoughts about Jews not needing Jesus: There is no choice between yr suggestions. What Jesus said is really unknown. See the book “Misquoting Jesus,” a book written by a fundementalist Christian professor of religion.

In it he shows how the “words” of Jesus have been changed so many times by church leaders and Christians with an agenda that we don’t know what his original words were.

In fact, after the author studied and reviewed all sources available he concluded that the “words” of Jesus in the New Testament is a product of many many people over 2000 years and have changed to suit the political/religious agenda of the “changers.”

Having studied all that, the author—once a fundementalist Christian—has become an agnostic!

There is no either/or when you haqve no real idea of what was really originally said. Thus, can you imagine that this Jew, Jesus, a “Prince of Peace,”who attended a Passover meal immediately before he was arrested, would have sanctioned the wholesale slaughter of HIS
OWN PEOPLE as encouraged and demanded by Christian “leaders” and priests and lay people who have done this “bidding” so that 50 millinon Jews were slaughtered in 2000 years???

Posted by: Art Dolin at July 7, 2006 6:37 PM
Comment #165553
or he is the Messiah.

Perhaps he was, but what does ‘Messiah’ mean? Is it defined properly in the bible or do we rely upon dated definitions to define it. What did it mean to the people at the time?

Look at those questions and truly search out the answers, you may find something you didn’t expect to find.

Posted by: Rhinehold at July 7, 2006 6:43 PM
Comment #165554

“If you must side with anyone side with the peacemakers…they are the only hope for the future of Israel and Palestine.”

abhcoide,

I’m not pro-Israeli or anti-Palestinian or vice-versa. I do know that Hamas is not pro-peace about anything. Hamas wants one thing: all Israeli’s either dead or off the continent. You really can’t negotiate with that.

Just show me an example of an acceptable negotiation with Palestine, especially with Hamas.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 7, 2006 6:43 PM
Comment #165556

Art Dolin,

I’m agnostic in large part because the belief of a “hereafter” creates a false impression that we can live forever. Some religions even suggest that your life in the “hereafter” can be improved by acts of courage on Earth. Others suggest you can be absolved of all sin by a simple prayer or a religious ceremony.

If only every person on earth believed that we have but one life to live and we must endeavor to do good and relieve suffering we might actually learn to appreciate life.

KansasDem
PS: I’ll stay off my pulpit, don’t worry!

Posted by: KansasDem at July 7, 2006 6:57 PM
Comment #165558

I agree with Paul?!?

whoo man, it must be a Friday.

Think of it this way:

The US got land that was originally a part of Mexico (California and New Mexico) in the Mexican American war. What would the US response be if Mexico vowed to kill every American?

Fact is, Isreal got statehood after WWI, and gained additional land after the 6 day war. Isreal has been fighting for its very existance since 1948. Even after Isreal pulled out of Gaza and agreed to give land to the palestinians, Hamas wasnt satisfied. And remember, Hamas was democratically elected, but it was more as a response to the fact that the Fatah government couldnt get anything done - NOT because the palestinian people were trying to give Hamas a mandate to further their terrorist cause.

Grow a spine! If a terrorist nation kidnapped our people, what would you want to have happen? Remember this did happen to us in 1979 (Iran Hostage Crisis) and 60 americans spent over a year as hostages. Negotiate? Sanctions? Eff that! Any government that supports taking hostages as a bargaining chip has lost their diplomacy card. Period. The End. Maybe when the Palestinians elect a non-terror group to steer their ship, Isreal and the Palestinians can go back to the negotiating table…

Until then…

Posted by: b0mbay at July 7, 2006 7:04 PM
Comment #165560

abhcoide,

Thanks. I refuse to choose between two sides when, cleary, after 50+ years, both are so equally wrong. Only a third party, a neutral one, should go between them and *enforce* peace in this area.
Unfortunatly, when we are quick to go into winning battles, we’re very slow when it comes to win peace… That’s the cursed human nature.

KansasDem,

Honestly what are the Israeli’s to do?

They have two clearly defined options: (1)fight for your right to exist as a nation or (2)leave the continent and/or die.

Stop kidding yourself, Israel have thousand time more power to protect it own existence than its neighboors, not speaking palestinians. They have many tanks, fighters, attacks helicopters and even nukes. Since last 60 years they always win military every confrontation. They even have pre-emptive air strike capabilities, as Osirak had shown. And I’m not telling of their bigger brother allied, #1 superpower.

No way you could think that palestinians could threat Israel vital existence.
What could, instead, is the terrorism cancer that is eating their policy since so long. Israel - Palestinians conflict is the best proof that we can’t win against terrorism with a military solution. They try since 50-60 years and are still in step zero…

Why are the Israeli’s so reviled? Why are there still anti-semitic groups in the USA? I guess I’ll never get it.

Being critical of Israel policy is not being anti-semitic. If you can’t see the difference, check the definition again.
Since when being an israeli give you carte blanche and forbid everybody ele to disagree with him???
And that’s the same for every palestinians, being Oppressed doesn’t give them carte blanche either.

I’m not a believer, I don’t care one bit about any religion, and even if some seems more tolerant than others, all of them are pretty much pointless to me… except for being the rational people use the most to jutify their behavior, the worst ones included.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at July 7, 2006 7:07 PM
Comment #165562

—What do you do with a two thousand year old tribe of wandering nomads who with little skills, an no way to develop a new way of life?? Force the U.N. to collect funds form all countries mainly from the other Arab Countries, implementing sanctions if they do not comply. Remove all weapons from the palestinians, rebuild their infrastructure, and if possible, try having some new companies build some type of industries that would work in that part of the world. Build a very large Prison! This may be
a trick question?

Posted by: DAVID at July 7, 2006 7:09 PM
Comment #165563

RHancheck,

You’re right, israel kids are also victims here, I should have state that myself. Kids should have their own nation alone…

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at July 7, 2006 7:09 PM
Comment #165565

why doesnt isreal build a big maginot line around the west bank? Hustle in all the little Palestinian and Isreali kids and give them tinker toys to play with?


Kids should have their own nation alone…

Are you serious???

Posted by: b0mbay at July 7, 2006 7:16 PM
Comment #165567

BTW - GO ITALYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: b0mbay at July 7, 2006 7:18 PM
Comment #165571
Kids should have their own nation alone

Are you serious???

Nope. But one day maybe a new generation will stand against this madness and remove from power people who did it since so long. On both sides.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at July 7, 2006 7:24 PM
Comment #165576

Philippe,

What’s the answer? I know the Israeli’s have managed to build a state of the art military complex and time & time again the need for such a force has been shown.

Like you, I want to see peace. How do we get there? Do you think if we threw all of our weapons in the sea and said “we’ll be peaceful from now on” that the rest of the world would say, “us too”?

I am nearly as liberal as liberal can be, but liberal can’t be confused with weak. Certainly every state deserves the right to defend itself unless it shows that the defensive force is used for offense rather than defense.

It really does get down to the simple question of whether Truman was right or wrong to recognize the state of Israel. IMO he was right. Somehow the followers of radical islam have now decided that they are going to “recast” the destiny of the world.

Question: What’s the single largest source of funding for radical islam?

Answer: Oil!

Question: Who’s stupid enough to fund the enemy?

Answer: The USA!

Question: Why haven’t we shut them down by starving their funds and forcing them into the 21st century?

Answer: Oh crap! There are no passenger trains anymore. It’s a bitch to find a bus line. It would cripple the economy.

THE ENEMY HAS US BY THE BALLS and we’re too stupid to see it.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 7, 2006 7:50 PM
Comment #165577

sure sure…

rainbows and roses…

maybe in the future, the world’s complex problems can be solved with a rousing game of rock paper scissors?

Posted by: b0mbay at July 7, 2006 7:52 PM
Comment #165581

I agree with Paul?!?

“whoo man, it must be a Friday.

Think of it this way:

The US got land that was originally a part of Mexico (California and New Mexico) in the Mexican American war. What would the US response be if Mexico vowed to kill every American?”

Bombay,

It must be the 7th Friday of the month man. I actually agree with you on this and we NEVER agree.

Well, enough of that. Do you realize that Neo-Conservatism actually got it’s start partly due to the “conservatives” disagreement with the Democrats over the Israeli state? Google it.

Of course since then neo-cons have basically morphed into “Neo-Rovians”.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 7, 2006 8:06 PM
Comment #165583

sure sure…

rainbows and roses…

maybe in the future, the world’s complex problems can be solved with a rousing game of rock paper scissors?

Bombay,

Who is this directed to?

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 7, 2006 8:08 PM
Comment #165586

Hi all,

What strikes me most about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is the symmetry in the mindsets of the two sides. The Israelis harm innocent people, and the Palestinians feel fully justified in retaliating. The Palestinians harm innocent people and the Israelis feel fully justifed in retaliating. It is cliche but an accurate one: a cycle of senseless violence.

Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that God informed us all that the Israeli Jews are right and good and the Arabs are wrong and evil. Where would that leave us? Still looking for a peaceful solution, I hope.

I hope we can all acknowledge the fact that neither side is completely, 100% nuts. As someone pointed out, the Palestinians really had squatters’ rights. How would you feel if people showed up with tanks, waving an ancient holy book that you don’t believe in, and drove you from your home? Would peaceful coexistence necessarily be your goal?

Posted by: Woody Mena at July 7, 2006 8:09 PM
Comment #165589

KD - I know blue moons and all…

my comment was directed to my fine french friend…

Im all out of sarcasism for the day, so on that note, good night, and have a safe weekend all!

oh and…

GOOOOOOOOOOOO IIITTTAAALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: b0mbay at July 7, 2006 8:12 PM
Comment #165590

KansasDem
Right on about oil fueling terrorism, and a very good point about States being allowed to defend themselves. However in my opinion Israel goes beyond defense time and time again. They use force too indiscriminatly and in that process end up perpetuating the conflict by creating more enemies than they eliminate. Every time they kill the innocent who “get in the way” of the bombs and bullets intended for the guilty they go beyond defending and become terrorists themselves.

Posted by: mark at July 7, 2006 8:12 PM
Comment #165594

Thanks, Art Dolin, for your sensible posts. Hamas or Arafat, it is all the same. The problem is that the Israeli government will never respond in kind to the people attacking their civilians. To do that would require killing the family members of the bombers, which would outrage the international community, which is not outraged by the murder of innocent Israeli citizens.

Who was there first? Go back to Plymouth Rock, if that is the standard you are applying. There have almost always been Jews in Israel, to the extent that they have been allowed to live in their own country without being murdered by occupying forces. We all know where Israel is. Palestine is Jordan.

Posted by: ohrealy at July 7, 2006 8:18 PM
Comment #165596

bOmbay: If Isreal is going to survive they must find a way to get along with their nieghbors,period. Sure they have a great Army.Superior to anthing else in the region. Will that be so 10,20,100 years from now? Can any society under constant threat withstand becomeing warped ? This is not wishful thinking. Just looking long term.
Whats so wrong with Isreal becoming a secular state. Jewish settlements? What if they built communities where everyone was welcome. We do that .They are called housing developments. Jewish culture would survive. They have survived worse. The population demographics of the region are similar to your county declaring war on the United States. You might hold out for awhile,depending on your army, but you would fall. Just a matter of time.

Posted by: BillS at July 7, 2006 8:20 PM
Comment #165599


Israel has us by the balls and we are to stupid to see it.

Posted by: jlw at July 7, 2006 8:29 PM
Comment #165600

Bombay,

Sarcasm is one thing as is political difference, but it truly seems that you’re attacking Phillippe’s country of origin. Not cool. I think it weakens any opinion you present.

Not much different than racism really.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 7, 2006 8:29 PM
Comment #165606

—I guess letting Hamas get into power was not a mistake, any more than letting the Taliban into Iraq. A (synonym) looks like planed obsolence, I really can’t believe any one in their right mind, did not see any other logical out come, We must first decide what the powers to be have in mind, there seems to be no explanations.

Posted by: DAVID at July 7, 2006 8:37 PM
Comment #165609

“Israel has us by the balls and we are to stupid to see it.”

jlw,

Bull Shit! Israel is our ally. You don’t leave a fallen conmrade in the field and you don’t abandon an ally just because they have the least significant force.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 7, 2006 8:41 PM
Comment #165615

Mark,

Israel has dealt with an enormous threat since it’s US sanctioned creation in 1948. You must put it all in perspective. No one on that continent supports the existence of an Israeli state.

Certainly there have been concessions such as those of Egypt but Israel only exists because of their strength. It’s rather like an old west shoot out. If they blink once it’s all over but the funeral.

We, the USA, must stop funding radical islam immediately. Economy be damned. It’ll be hard, really hard, like our parents, grandparents and great-drandparents experienced HARD! We must choke off the funds!

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 7, 2006 8:53 PM
Comment #165616

Max :Do you know any Palastinians?

Posted by: BillS at July 7, 2006 8:54 PM
Comment #165627


Israel is our ally. Bull shit! Israel is a fabricated nation that has done nothing but leach off of us since we created it. They spy on us constantly. They have built themselves a military and a kingdom with our money. There are many nations who would gladly be our allies if we are willing to hand them billions of our dollars. The only time they help us is when it is in their own best interest.

We are responsible for nearly everything that is going on there. Hamas is a blood thirsty terrorist organization that doesn’t give a damn how many innocent civilians they butcher to achieve their objective and Israel doesn’t give a damn about how many Palestinians they kill to keep what they have taken.

Posted by: jlw at July 7, 2006 9:15 PM
Comment #165629

I’m rather confused by those who try to equate the actions of Israel and the Arab people. Show me where Israel has ever advocated eliminating an Arab country from existance. Show me where Israel as straped bombs on their own people and put them on buses full of innocent people. Show me where Israel has hijacked an ocean liner and pushed a wheel chair bound man over board.

Israel position is let us live in this one little country. The Arab position is ya we have much land and many countries but we prefer you have none. If the Palestinians were there first give me a list of their Kings form when they ruled the country. Not Caliphs from Arabia, Turkey or Syria but actual Palestinian Kings.

Each of us has the right to have an opinion on this and many seem to be caught in the middle. I for one am 100% in support of Israel.

Posted by: Carnak at July 7, 2006 9:23 PM
Comment #165630

“Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that God informed us all that the Israeli Jews are right and good and the Arabs are wrong and evil. Where would that leave us? Still looking for a peaceful solution, I hope.”

Woody,

The whole damn thing amounts to religous extremism and you must ask, “who’s denying who’s right to live as they see fit”.

The simple answer is that I’ve never seen the Jews try like hell to deny anyone else’s religion or destroy another cultural way of life. OTOH the Jew’s have been persecuted everywhere they go.

I find it odd that anyone would argue against their right to protect one small speck on one huge continent. It’s quite simply Islamic extremism and the only way to choke it off forever is to let it fail on it’s own. That will not happen as long as we feed it with our own $$$$$$ for oil.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 7, 2006 9:23 PM
Comment #165631

KansasDem
I agree regarding funding although I don’t see it happening until the oil dries up. There are too many U.S. corporations making too much $$$$$$. In the meantime Israel would do itself a big favor if they became more precise in how they defended themselves. There are many Jews living in Israel who are in favor of more peaceful solutions. By begetting more enemies through their indiscriminate use of weapons they hinder their quest for a more peaceful existence.

Posted by: mark at July 7, 2006 9:24 PM
Comment #165633

“Israel is our ally. Bull shit!”

jlw,

I’m sorry you feel that way. I’ll simply say I totally disagree and leave it at that.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 7, 2006 9:34 PM
Comment #165638

“I agree regarding funding although I don’t see it happening until the oil dries up. There are too many U.S. corporations making too much $$$$$$. In the meantime Israel would do itself a big favor if they became more precise in how they defended themselves.”

Mark,

That is in part the reason for government. Our government could shut down the imports of oil from hostile nations. You bet it would cause a great hiccup in our economy. The world economy would go with ours.

This is America! We’d get through it. As it is everyone in America is being held hostage to Arab oil companies. We can’t just bomb the hell out of them, look at Iraq’s oil ouput post war.

We’re allowing ourselves to be held hostage through our dependence on oil. North Korea gets it’s oil from China. China gets it’s oil from the same place we get ours.

As Larry the cable guy would say, “get-r-dun” only in this case it’s “shut-r-down”!

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 7, 2006 9:51 PM
Comment #165640

KansasDem
I admire your optimism and I do not enjoy being the cynic but it will never happen. Our government is controlled by the very corporations that are making the billions from oil. They could care less about what happens as long as they make their $$$$$$.

I’ve no doubt we could get through it what with all the alternatives to oil that could be available with more capital input. But once again Big Oil is not going to let it happen because this would cut into their profits. Sorry friend, but I have no faith in this country being able to wean itself off of oil until there is none left to be had.

Posted by: mark at July 7, 2006 10:07 PM
Comment #165656

Liberals not in lockstep? Must be a Friday…..in the Twilight Zone. Because of the Jewish propensity for writing everything down, we have evidence of a state of Israel at about 1,000 b.c.e. There is no such evidence for a state of Palestine ever. There were the Philistines, though, but most scholars agree these ancient enemies of Israel are unrelated to the Palestinians of today. They weren’t even Arabs. Shalom to all. “Baruk atta Adonai Eloheinu”

Posted by: Duane-o at July 7, 2006 10:50 PM
Comment #165659

Some of you are forgetting that there is and has been a significant Israeli resistance to the policies of its government. There are soldiers who refuse to take action against the Palestineans and they are touted as villians or as heroes. They exist in numbers. Israel is no more homogeneous in opinion than the USA is in lock step with our government policies. And even their government’s policies change. (So, hopefully, will ours.)

Perhaps it is there, in the Peace movement where there might be possible solutions. They have lived closely with the horrors of both sides, and still have both hope and ideas. I am not aware of organized Palestinean peace groups, but that does not mean they do not exist.

It is clear, however, that Hamas is not backed by all the Palestinians. The fighting between factions is clear and violent. We can assume there will be changes.

It is unlikely that Israel and the Palestineans will come alone to a Peace. It will take the rest of the world, looking not to condemnation or blame, but to brokering negotiations that might have some hope; and it will not be easy. The Clinton administration was making progress. Unfortunately, we have a government here that has no concept of diplomacy and certainly is entirely lacking in statesmanship.

The ultimate land issue in the area has not even been approached. That is Jerusalem. Even should Israel be willing to cede the additional areas they captured, and reach some agreement that would leave them feeling secure from attack, Jerusalem will not be included; it is too important to them.

It has occurred to me that one approach would be for the United Nations to relocate to Jerusalem, which would then become an international city. Idealism aside, there is no ultimate right or wrong in the very sorry state of affairs.


Posted by: dana at July 7, 2006 10:57 PM
Comment #165681

“Liberals not in lockstep?”

Duane-o,

You are very confused. Remember? Democrats can’t agree on anything because each of us has an independent and progressive brain.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 8, 2006 12:13 AM
Comment #165688

“one approach would be for the United Nations to relocate to Jerusalem”

Dana,

I love your optimism but do you know what the likelihood of that is? We’ll get China to spank KIm Jong Ill first.

The future of the free world is largely in the hands of George W. Bush right now. What we need is a Bush-daughter-cam to alert us of the level of the threat. If they’re headed underground we should kiss our butt’s goodbye.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at July 8, 2006 12:36 AM
Comment #165694

Kanas: Interesting piece in the red column about Canada. Seems THEY have the 2nd largest oil reserve. The Canadin ambassor is saying pulically that the US does not need to get oil from despots. They will be happy to supply it.That means two things to me. The relationship between Bushco. and the dictators of the Mid-East is more incestuious than I thought and/or we want Mid-East oil so nobody else ( ie.China ) can have it.
Canada is increasing their military by like 26%. The red guys think it is to help us with the war on terror. I think it is because they are worried Bushco might decide to “liberate” their oil also.

Posted by: BillS at July 8, 2006 1:19 AM
Comment #165695

A Bush-daughter-cam… that is what we need. If Bush gets out of bed we can pretty much kiss our butts goodbye…

The Israeli - Palestinian conflict is a mess. It is ancient - tribal - and fundamentalist religious fanaticism - including all three major religions. The Christians want their Apocalypse and they are probably going to get it. In the end, what other solution is there beyond making a million square miles of manmade obsidian?

I have thought that the Isreali occupation has been a mistake. Withdraw, give the Palistinians their homeland - then carpet bomb the living snot out of them every time they attack Israel. And then, there is just no excuse for the settlements. If you do really need to occupy your enemy for self defense, then you don’t need to settle on his land. That is called conquest and nice civilized people do not do that.

Israel has made this hostage situation worse because they negotiated and set terrorist prisoners free in the past - and that has only encouraged their enemy to think that they can gain by kidnapping Iraelis.

Posted by: Ray Guest at July 8, 2006 1:23 AM
Comment #165697

I am not sure that I really agree with this modern idea of proportionate responses. I think disproportionate responses may sometime be indicated. The terrorist threat that we are facing is asymmetrical. The terrorist are no match for our army in a head to head fight. They are like a few thousand piss ants hiding in the cracks - but they have a stinging bite. The simplest solution would be to spray enough poison in the cracks to kill everything in there. When you are dealing with piss ants - you don’t just go proportionally kill one ant - you kill em all and anything else that gets in the way. So that is my emotional reaction. But of course this same line of thought that I just applied here, no doubt also plays a role in war atrocities like what may have happened in Haditha, where our soldiers may have thought that those innocent civilians know who the insurgents are, and they need to learn that they are in greater danger from us by not giving them up, then they are from the insurgents for giving them up to us. What a mess all the way around. I am glad that I do not have to be Solomon. Anyhow, tomorrow I am sure that I will see it all differently.

People think the Bush Regime is bad and it is. It is terrible - but you can probably thank your lucky stars that I am not your President - obsidian would probably be cheap.

Posted by: Ray Guest at July 8, 2006 1:47 AM
Comment #165714

Hamas and American Republicans, are real world testament that free elections are no guarantee of competent and capable government. They promise peace, prosperity, and freedom, but, in the real world, all they deliver is more war, have and have not extremes, and an ever greater diminishment of personal liberty and freedom.

It doesn’t have to be that way. But, it is up to the voters to educate themselves and vote not for promises but results. And when the expected results are absent, voters have to take the responsibility to vote them out of office en masse, making it abundantly clear, that promises and kissing babies don’t cut it: results in the form of less violence and war, greater prosperity, and greater freedom are the ticket to reelection.

Posted by: David R. Remer at July 8, 2006 5:10 AM
Comment #165718

when an idea takes a hold of a human mind and won’t let go, then that human is blinded by the idea. there is many views to an idea most just see the side that favors them.
all are wrong when they can not see the other sides of an idea. or dreams carried on for those long dead in the past, the load they put on the childern of tomorrow is draging the world down.

Posted by: avelino at July 8, 2006 6:19 AM
Comment #165736

I just can’t get past the basic belief that all men were created equal in the eyes of the lord. To me that means whites, blacks, indians, green with purple polka dots, christians, catholics, etc. Where this hatred for others not like yourselves is just beyond me.

Posted by: Sherri at July 8, 2006 8:53 AM
Comment #165739


Peace is the greatest enemy that we have. We must be ever diligent to insure that peace does not become a threat to our way of life. Peace would be very very bad for our economy and even worse for our Royalty.

Posted by: jlw at July 8, 2006 9:05 AM
Comment #165818

Let me engage the topic at hand here.

The main problem to all of this is within the mainstream urban Palestinian mindset and was there from the beginning—kill the jew, run them into the sea and the like.

That is precisely the prevalent mindset that lead to the 6 day war and other confrontations. I DO think for the most part I’m seeing a leftist turn around on concepts of whether Palestinians are entirely the innocent party in all this. Paul is absolutely right in saying that the Palestinians are pretty much the “wild dogs” not the underdogs. It’s just silly for Israel to have to do this time and time again—and this was by no means unprovoked.

Posted by: In Italix at July 8, 2006 1:59 PM
Comment #165911

Thank you, Carnak, for the reality check.

I never heard anything but complete support for Israel from anyone in this country , until the arab oil embargo of 1973-74. That was when we started hearing some support for the palestinians. We need to be able to drive our tanks, and fuel our jets.

Oil from Canada sounds good, but we may be in conflict with them over the Northwest Passage soon.

Posted by: ohrealy at July 8, 2006 5:27 PM
Comment #166324

I think we should put the money we give to Israel each year on the table, match it & offer it to Palestine. If you guys play nice, you can come back in a year and have this money… if you (or your people) screw up, then you get no money.

We can also consider removing our oil-addicted funding of violence in that entire area by finding other energy sources.

As far as the conflict goes - Palestinians got completely screwed out of their land and have been forced to live in “camps” (a.k.a.: ask the jewish people what they faced at the hands of the Germans.) On the flip side, when a people’s religion tells them to hate a group of people (a.k.a. - what the Jewish people saw in WW2) then how can you blame the other group for not playing nicely?

People like money… so maybe you offer something like this: You like schools and plumbing and water and medical care? You can have it if you agree not to kill your neighbors.

Posted by: tony at July 10, 2006 1:41 PM
Comment #166360

So, after all this back and forth banter, what is the solution for the Middle East? To me, it seems that, by saying either Israel or the Palestinians are correct, we are just insighting the continuation of this multi-millenia war. Somebody (a whole lot of somebodies) need to look beyond the war to where we *ALL* as a people want to go in the future.

Begin by calling on the U.N. to develop a vision of where the world should be in 100 years and how that vision can be achieved.

Posted by: DavidM at July 10, 2006 3:22 PM
Comment #166422

Paul,

Congrats on your excellent post. I couldn’t agree more. Israel is obviously far from perfect with their actions but it’s time to stick with folks who actually look forward to a viable civilization.

Virgins in heaven … why would there be sex in heaven if there’s no need for procreation? Doesn’t heaven get its souls from Earth?

Posted by: Ken Strong at July 10, 2006 7:45 PM
Comment #167294

Let us not beat around the bush. Hamas is the ruling party. Just as the Nazis ruled Germany in the 30’s and 40’s. Attacks across the border constitute the policy of a country. Not only does Hamas not try to eliminate rocket attacks, but they are party to the attacks. The Arabs wanted their country, now their actions reflect their country’s position. Shooting rockets into another country it is an act of war, not terror. When any country in invaded it is an act of war. What is going on in Gaza is nothing more than battles in that war. And, don’t forget, the policy of Hamas is to eliminate Israel.

Posted by: M. L. Schneider at July 13, 2006 7:41 PM
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