Democrats & Liberals Archives

How Bush Fights the War on Terror

Recently senate Democrats coalesced around an Iraq strategy. The vast majority of them voted in favor of an exit strategy but without a specific end point. Republicans were alarmed that Democrats may beat them even on the security issue in the fall elections. So Bush decided to unleash his favorite weapon, the “war on terror,” not against the Al Qaeda enemy, but against the “liberal media.”

Where did he start? With the New York Times, of course. Previously, it had exposed the illegal NSA program of warrantless spying on Americans. Now it exposed the Treasury Department's financial tracking of terrorists. An excellent choice to pillory. Now, mind you, the Wall Street Journal and the Los Angeles Times printed the same news. But the big guns are aimed primarily at the New York Times.

Here's what Bush said:

"The disclosure of this program is disgraceful. For people to leak that program and for a newspaper to publish it does great harm to the United States of America." The disclosure of the program "makes it harder to win this war on terror."

The New York Times did not disclose the program. Bush himself did, way back on September 24, 2001, when he said:

"We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them against each other, rout them out of their safe hiding places, and bring them to justice.”

Bush is not the only one objecting. Representative Peter King, chairman of the House Homeland Security committee, said:

“We’re at war, and for the Times to release information about secret operations and methods is treasonous.”

Talk show host Melanie Morgan said that New York Times editor Bill Keller is guilty of treason and that

“Keller and his associates” should be thrown “in prison for 20 years."

You hear the same from many prominent Republicans.

This is the new Republican initiative designed to show how worried Bush and fellow Republicans are about security. They believe that this sort of contrived issue will stamp them as being tough on terrorists. After all, the great news about Iraq vanished pretty fast. It's still a mess. Afghanistan is becoming a Taliban battleground again. We never found Osama bin Laden. Port security has not been fixed. Somalia has been taken over by jihadists.

What can Bush do about all this? Evidently, he does not have a clue. So he blames the New York Times that printed a story the administration does not want printed. But don't kid yourself. This is only the first step in putting the blame for everything that has gone wrong on Democrats and liberals. This is the beginning of the big Republican smearing campaign that will take place from now until November.

Bush has given up fighting the real war on terrorists. He is enlisting his entire administration and his friends in the media to bring down all those who oppose his policies - in order to reduce the Republican slide in the fall elections.

To Bush and the Republicans, winning elections is more important than winning the "war on terror."

Posted by Paul Siegel at June 27, 2006 4:52 PM
Comments
Comment #162443

Paul,

How is outing counties that help us out on the war on terror not a bad thing?

You guys talk endlessly about getting international partners and the UN. Then a US paper fingers a country like Belgium and puts a big target on them. How is it a good thing when there was nothing illegal about the program?

Explain this to me.

Posted by: JimmyRay at June 27, 2006 6:10 PM
Comment #162451

Paul posted:

To Bush and the Republicans, winning elections is more important than winning the “war on terror.”

The fact that you put the words war on terror in quotes perfectly summarizes the lib/dem view of this struggle. You think its phony.

I suppose Bush dug those holes where the Twin Towers once stood.

BTW: I think the the GOP will win the 2006 election. And, I know the US military will win the War on Terror.

And the thought of both happening really galls you.

Posted by: Right-of-Way at June 27, 2006 6:29 PM
Comment #162452

Bush: “The disclosure of this program is disgraceful. For people to leak that program and for a newspaper to publish it does great harm to the United States of America.” The disclosure of the program “makes it harder to win this war on terror.”

When I heard that I wondered how much harm was done to our country by the White House outing of an undercover CIA agent. Talk about treason!!! I still don’t understand how outing Valerie Plame, a veteran agent whose family and friends didn’t even know her true job, and who ouster also outed her cover company and numerous CIA contacts — how is that not the most treasonout action by any sitting President/VicePresident??

It makes me laugh to hear anyone in this administration talking about the treasonous actions of others. Especially when those “others” are reporters reporting on some very questionable administration programs. Maybe outing countries that are helping was a bad thing, to be sure. But it’s like when the administration cried foul for airing the wiretapping program. Do we really think it’s news to the terrorists that we are trying to listen to them, or cut off their funding??? Get a grip.

Posted by: MaggieRose at June 27, 2006 6:32 PM
Comment #162457

Right of way:

The author can speak for himself, but the way I read “war on terror” is that that is the reason given for everything…..not that there aren’t really terrorists working to make our lives miserable. It’s just that the phrase has been so overused and misused by the administration. I believe that’s why it appeared in quotes.

Posted by: MaggieRose at June 27, 2006 6:35 PM
Comment #162465

I think the quotes around war on terror are very appropriate. There is no real war on terror. It’s a catch-phrase coined by King George. It is no more a real war than is the war on drugs, the war on crime, the war on poverty, or the war on illiteracy. It is, at best, a campaign to reduce terrorism as a method of expression. Certainly a worthwhile campaign, just as the others are. In the case of this one, however, we are sorely in need of a new campaign manager, as it is failing horribly.

Posted by: Stan at June 27, 2006 6:58 PM
Comment #162469

I remeber when this announcement was made in September 2001, I believed then as I believe now - the terrorists cheated their King into the presidency. I remember thinking that I would not be part of the herd on this. I believe the real terrorists are many of our government officials. The policies that our being inacted for our own good, the legislation of morality, the very idea that the term “terrorist” can be so easily applied to anyone that goes against the grain. Who says cheaters never prosper! During this administration we have seen so much loss. Loss of life, jobs, housing, privacy. I don’t know about anyone else but I really think it’s time for the regular people to be heard.

Posted by: Connie at June 27, 2006 7:06 PM
Comment #162472

Right on, sister!!

Posted by: MaggieRose at June 27, 2006 7:09 PM
Comment #162475

Any chance for the US military to win a “War on Terror” came and went in Afghanistan. By 2003, Al Qaida ceased to funciton as an effective operation.

Since that time, we have been back to an intelligence/special ops approach to combatting terrorism. While blowing up mud huts in Pakistan with the occasional Hellfires might not be very satisfying, that is about all there is for us.

The idea of winning a “War on Terror” using a conventional military, Third Generation Warfare approach is unspeakably stupid.

But then, we are in Iraq, are we not?

We stopped making the pursuit of Osama bin Laden our priority, and we stopped making the rebuilding of the failed state of Afghanistan a priority. Big, big mistake.

Meanwhile, like the failed state of Afghanistan ten years ago, southern Somalia & Mogadishu has now come under the unifying rule of an Islamic Fundamentalist movement, the Council of Islamic Courts. They bring Sharia as the law of the land, and they defeated warlords allegedly backed by the US.

Nice job. Why does ever unfavorable development catch us so completely unprepared?

The new head of the Islamic Courts Union, Sheikh Aweys, is the proverbial blast from the past. he used to be on the US terrorist watch list; he is buds with Osama bin Laden going waaaay back.

In an administration already sporting a loooong list of foreign policy failures, some of them pretty spectacular, this one ranks right up there, and that is saying a lot.

Worst. President. Ever.

Posted by: phx8 at June 27, 2006 7:13 PM
Comment #162479
Recently senate Democrats coalesced around an Iraq strategy. The vast majority of them voted in favor of an exit strategy but without a specific end point.

It took only 3 years and a whole lot of mistakes, but Dems finally agree w/ Bush’s 2003 strategy.

Can we all stay together now, support our country to get this thing done right (give Security and make Friends as much as possible with Iraqis), then get out of Iraq.

AND get out of Kosovo, Korea, Japan, Germany, … How ‘bout we stop defending them, pouring our tax $$ into their economy, and have ‘Enough Troops’ available for anything in the future … god forbid.

Posted by: Brian at June 27, 2006 7:21 PM
Comment #162480

Worst Pres. ever phx8? Maybe so, but what I for the life of me cannot understand, is how this man who, when he is off the leash and having to speak off the top of his head, cannot string a sensible sentence together, who appears to be totally inarticulate in speech and thought, can attract such wide and fanatical support in the US. Now that for me is terrifying!

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 27, 2006 7:22 PM
Comment #162483

Worst. President. Ever.

Couldn’t agree more. We went from one of the brainiest Pres’s (with the famous zipper issue) to one of the biggest morons ever (but I bet he’s faithful, at least since he sobered up).

But he slipped through the cracks and into office, twice, due to god knows what ballot frenzy and duplicity. What makes average Americans think we can vote in someone we want this time???? I think this global class war thing is real, American govt is for sale, or can be stolen, and we’re all in hot water unless we can stop fighting among ourselves and save our great union. Beats me how to do that, though, given all the campaign finance issues, polarized voters, greed and corruption.

Posted by: MaggieRose at June 27, 2006 7:27 PM
Comment #162484

The beauty of all of this is that the American people are getting wise to this game. All but the president’s most mindless supporters see this for what it is, and most Americans greatly value the freedom of the press. After the Big 3 Values Ammendments failed in the Senate, the Pres had to find something else to try and divert the voters’ collective attention from his miserable failure of an administration. “Its not my fault we’re losing the War on Terror, its the NYT.” Boo-hoo. Maybe if his administration could keep their secret programs secret they’d stop having all these problems with the “Liberal MSM”. Maybe if they’d stop trying to skirt the law they wouldn’t have so many detractors within their own ranks leaking classified info to the media. Maybe if they hadn’t set the precedent with Plamegate they wouldn’t be dealing with this now. Maybe this is all just a bad dream…

Posted by: David S at June 27, 2006 7:28 PM
Comment #162485

That’s another puzzle for me MaggieRose. How is it that such charming and polite and friendly people as Americans, can display a degree of bitterness perhaps only just short of hatred of their compatriots? How is it that Americans seem, on the evidence of this blog at least, to be so bitterly divided? And as one who remembers the old Soviet Union, I fail to understand what Americans are talking about when they talk about the left and the far left. Am I living in a parallel universe, or is it just that American politics is so far right, that anything even slightly whiffy of the centre, is branded lefty? How can you guys possibly win a war when you are so divided in yourselves?

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 27, 2006 7:33 PM
Comment #162487

The sad part of this whole thing is that there are people who actually believe the crap put out by Siegel. Thankfully you pussies will continue to lose elections because there are still enough of us realists around to kick your asses at the poles.

Posted by: whitebigot at June 27, 2006 7:38 PM
Comment #162489

cool name whitey! It seems perfectly descriptive for ya!

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 27, 2006 7:42 PM
Comment #162490

“The sad part of this whole thing is that there are people who actually believe the crap put out by Siegel. Thankfully you pussies will continue to lose elections because there are still enough of us realists around to kick your asses at the poles.”

Actually, that would be polls… kind of takes the sting out of rants by getting it wrong. other than that, wow - your intellect is dizzying. Nice name… would never have guessed.

Posted by: tony at June 27, 2006 7:42 PM
Comment #162491

Furthermore, is ya’ll realists go to the poles at the next election, maybe there is a chance that the fascists can be ousted.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 27, 2006 7:44 PM
Comment #162492

Paul, this has had me puzzled for several years, now, too. I’d never been aware of such venom and hatred as was directed toward Clinton. And it has just seemed to escalate since then. It seems that when someone differs with the opinion of another, that gives them some right to label the other as unpatriotic (or see Whitebigot’s post for addition names), and assume the other is totally ignorant. What puzzles me even more, is that some of the nicest, smartest people I know where steadfastly in Bush’s camp for the longest time. I don’t know if they were just loyal Republicans, or really like him, or what. Many of the diehards seem to be unable to have an intelligent discussion of differences without resorting to name-calling and insults, but I am most puzzled by the seemingly intelligent, thoughtful people who continue to defend his presidency, strategies (or lack thereof), and methods. I was absolutely terrified to think of another 4 years of Bush, and then I had to get used to the idea. i believe it will take several decades to undo what this single man has done to our country, our environment, our national economy, and most importantly, our standing and respect in the world.

Posted by: MaggieRose at June 27, 2006 7:48 PM
Comment #162495

Whitebigot,
I believe the word you wanted was “polls.” But I guess that was just a Freudian slip.

Paul in Euroland,
The far right comprise perhaps 25-33% of the country. Make no mistake, though, our far right are pretty far out there. These are the people who believe in the rapture, do not accept the theory of evolution, think there really are WMD’s in Iraq, and that Global Warming is a hoax.

They tend to be rural, with lower levels of education and less money, and the kind of confident, unthinking aggressiveness that fits hand in glove with stupidity.

“You cannot fix stupid.”

This crowd is easy as pie to manipulate, and that is where the Corporatists come into the picture. They can hold four days of debate in the Legislature on a Flag Burning amendment…

My God. I actually feel stupider just typing the previous sentence.

There is a “moderate” crowd which can be swayed, one way or another. Unfortunately, our media is being increasingly controlled by corporate interests.

It is not a good situation in the States. I do not know how much worse it will get before we see improvement. Corporate money controls the
Senate and House, so turning out the Republicans in the 2006 midterms will be very, very difficult.

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.

Posted by: phx8 at June 27, 2006 7:50 PM
Comment #162499

if your stats are right phx8, what are the other 67 - 75% of Americans doing? I mean, I thought that Republicans were supposed to be at least fiscally conservative, and yet this administration has increased public debt to historic levels, and the cheerleaders sing ra ra ra from the sidelines? They tell the people to stay the course when every day Iraq becomes more like Vietnam, which I visited incidentally this year, and where they talk of the American war! How about that, gives a slightly different slant eh? And as for Afghanistan, because of the lack of the promised commitment, the talibs are getting restless again and getting an influx of Pakistanis and Arabs and gaining in support with the population. And Bush said we won’t walk away this time? The whole creaking edifice is tottering and the so called war on terror stirs up more terrorists. A person of a cynical persuasion might just say that that is the whole purpose of the way the WOT is being fought. Never ending conflict - keep the people distracted while the neo con agenda is ruthlessly pursued. It’s like a rolling coup d’etat by spin.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 27, 2006 8:04 PM
Comment #162500

“Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. “

H.L.Mencken

Posted by: Tim Crow at June 27, 2006 8:07 PM
Comment #162512

Paul in Euroland:

“A person of a cynical persuasion might just say that that is the whole purpose of the way the WOT is being fought. Never ending conflict - keep the people distracted while the neo con agenda is ruthlessly pursued. “

It’s important to remember just how lucrative all this warmongering is: investors and corporations profit, War profiteers, DoD, weapons makers, gun runners. It also elevates failed businessmen and ex-frat boys to the level of a “war administration”, right up there with William McKinley (Spanish-American War), James K. Polk ( the Mexican-American War) and Ronald Reagan (Grenada, and the greatest military triumph in American military history, Panama.)

Distraction is a political plus—actually putting “boots on the ground”, makes it all worth while.

Posted by: Tim Crow at June 27, 2006 8:27 PM
Comment #162521

Don’t forget the great bonus of having to call all your opponents Traitors.

Posted by: Aldous at June 27, 2006 9:15 PM
Comment #162534

Paul, nicely done.

whitebigot:
“The sad part of this whole thing is that there are people who actually believe the crap put out by Siegel. Thankfully you pussies will continue to lose elections because there are still enough of us realists around to kick your asses at the poles.”

tony:
“Actually, that would be polls… kind of takes the sting out of rants by getting it wrong. other than that, wow - your intellect is dizzying. Nice name… would never have guessed.”

Hey tony, maybe what the bigot really meant to say is that when all the ice melts at the poles due to the Republicans denying and ignoring man-made climate change brought on by the burning of fossil fuels at the behest of their Big Oil Pals, the GOP has plans to immediately begin drilling there for oil?
Just a guess.

phx8, Euro Paul, Tim Crow good posts — though I found them a bit depressing, too.

Aldous:
“Don’t forget the great bonus of having to call all your opponents Traitors.”

Yes, the whole half-witted horde of bellowing Ditto-heads and shrieking Coultergeists really do seem to get a kick out of this “bonus.”

Posted by: Adrienne at June 27, 2006 10:07 PM
Comment #162548
I believe the real terrorists are many of our government officials.

Connie,

They certainly become the terrorists at election time don’t they? The Boogyman is gonna get ya! The Boogyman is gonna get ya!

This is funny. My home state Senator Democrat Carl Levin was on “Fox and Friends” talking about what the Democrats propose in Iraq. He was constantly interrupted by the host who kept giving his opinion. When Levin started to make a point about the Republican plan of catch phrases, they conveniently had to go to break. The host thanked Levin to which Levin replied “Thank you for your opinion. I was hoping this would be an interview of me, rather than an interview of you.”

Right on Levin! It is as if these Neocon talk programs invite people on just to give them their opinion.
Watch the clip here.

Posted by: JayJay Snowman at June 27, 2006 10:39 PM
Comment #162553

In the Time’s response they claim they worked with the administration on the article and are puzzled about all the hullaballoo. Was anyone here unaware that we were following the money? I seem to recall Bush saying this himself right after 9/11. Also, after the Valerie Plame leak, which came from his own inner circle Scooter Libby (who probably was told to leak it by someone above him) I just don’t find laughable for Bush to talk about disclosures that make this war harder to win.

The message I get is that Republicans keep playing these cheeseball political games and it never ends. I am so sick of this administration. As for Democrats agreeing an exit strategy is needed, am I supposed to be impressed? Shouldn’t this have been the very first thing to be worked out?

Posted by: Max at June 27, 2006 11:01 PM
Comment #162563

Max:

You forget that President “The Decider” Bush has the right to leak classified information. Bush isn’t even required to ask the CIA if the Info he is leaking could damage an undercover agent and weaken the country.

That’s The Decider for you. Snap Decisions without thinking of the repercussions.

Posted by: Aldous at June 27, 2006 11:28 PM
Comment #162565

Did anyone not know Bush was following international wiretransfers? Didn’t he already say many times he was following the money? When he said that, did he “leak” our war on terror strategy? Didn’t the United Nations group set up to monitor Al Qaeda and the Taliban after Sept. 11 recommend in 2002 that other countries should follow the United States’ lead in monitoring suspicious transactions handled by Swift? Isn’t that report public and available on the United Nations Web site? Where was Bush’s outrage? Didn’t the Times hold its reporting about the government’s secret antiterror wiretapping program for more than a year while it weighed administration objections? Didn’t they sit on stories about torture? About illegally extraditing prisoners to rogue states where anything is permissable?

This guy gets away with anything and everything doesn’t he? We could catch him going through our wallets and the next days headlines would be Bush’s indignation that we came home at the wrong time during a secret investigation of suspect nationals. This man isn’t a king. We didn’t invest him with authority to do more than any president. What he’s doing is illegal. No one’s above the law in this country.

Posted by: Max at June 27, 2006 11:37 PM
Comment #162569

Bush That som’bitch, I was right!!! I was right!!!

Okay where do I begin, okay now, since the NSA wiretaps the Government has been watching the NYT like a hawk, now they have key journalists under watch, phone records other things AND THIS LEAK CONVENIENTLY SLIPS THROUGH and the Govy has no IDEA who the leaker is. Bullshit! Bullshit! annd Bullshit!

I said this over in the red column to Republicans basically attacking it, THE WHOLE THING IS A SET UP FOR NOVEMBER!

Okay if the Govenment who has been watching the NYT has no idea who the leaker is—-Aaaaannnd the leaker is obviously from inside the HSA or FBI—-The FBI knows exactly who it is, exactly.

It is meant to rally up a splintered party for November—and the Republicans organized this leak themselves or the leaker would be caught! Right?!!

And then Bush-hole does this basically showing his slimy underpinnings! What a little cretin he is. What a little spineless toady.

I can’t believe the press is giving him a pass on this. I knew it!!!! AND NOW BUSH HAS A DEMON MSM TO BLAME CONSOLIDATING HIS PARTY. And the Republicans are the most gullible people as they buy it all wholesale without question—eeeediots!

ALSO TOO the bust of the premature FBI sting in Miami, why was that set to spring so early?

IT MAKES CONGRESSIONAL REPUBLICANS LOOK REMOTELY USEFUL, AS A SUPPOSED ANTI-TERROR PARTY!

Now you have the flag burning issue and other hoakey things and Mueller is out on a talkshow circuit.

Republicans are the sleeziest little snotnose punks!!!

I am vindicated because I was right on the mark about this—right on mark. I knew they’d do this, those sly little d*cks.

Posted by: Novenge at June 27, 2006 11:51 PM
Comment #162585

MaggieRose: What makes you think he sobered up?

Bigot: Dream on.Oh yeah,we know your dirty little secret.

Posted by: BillS at June 28, 2006 12:36 AM
Comment #162593

Coonjay: …shut your pie holes.

I am getting long in the tooth I suppose but I remember when a real conservative gentleman would never adress a woman like that. Manners,sir manners.

Posted by: BillS at June 28, 2006 1:04 AM
Comment #162601
ALSO TOO the bust of the premature FBI sting in Miami, why was that set to spring so early?

IT MAKES CONGRESSIONAL REPUBLICANS LOOK REMOTELY USEFUL, AS A SUPPOSED ANTI-TERROR PARTY!

Novenge,

The whole Miami sting thing is way overblown: The Jon Steward Show

Posted by: JayJay Snow at June 28, 2006 1:42 AM
Comment #162605

Funny.

Those Maimi “Terrorists” didn’t have a single handgun between them. One day, a man aproached them and offered to supply guns, money and training if they would bomb something. That “Guy” was the FBI Agent.

Heh…

Basically, anyone who TALKS about it is enough to be arrested.

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 2:14 AM
Comment #162624

—Remember the first four years of the Bush administration. The Nation was continuously bombarded with all those yellow and orange alerts? Guess they need to find new alerts to terrorize people, there like the little boy who cried wolf, wolf,

Posted by: DAVID at June 28, 2006 4:05 AM
Comment #162633

These leaders of this country have people so scared, not just from the the terrorist but from him and his administration.He’s taken away our freedoms everyday.And God knows what he does to these people he has picked up just because they look and beleive different than we do.He’s gone on this power trip and he thinks he has control over everybody, and so far he does. I just think that that when he goes to meet the maker it want be the one he thinks its going to be,because we all pay for what we do to others in this lifetime and he’s going to pay, for all these brave soldiers that have put their trust and proudness of serving this country, that he lied and sent to war to die for him, and they think they are doing it for him and this country, and they are doing it so all his buddies can get rich off these soldiers there braveness, he should be so ashamed of himself. Jesus did not beleive in war and he would not send young soldiers, young husbands, sons, daughters mothers, sisters, fathers off to fight and die and kill and get killed by people that has done nothing to them.Thats not not what Jesus beleives in. He loved people, he cared for people, how can anyone that says they are a christian, say that God told them to go to kill people, thats not the God I know.Even if Sadam did what they said he did,Jesus would not go and kill and do the same thing he did. That’s why God sent Jesus to us to stop the killing, not to justify it. These people doing this in the name of God will suffer worse. They will answer to God at the end of their days or maybe before. He knows what you all do even if you think we don’t see it , he does.

Posted by: cherry weisel. at June 28, 2006 5:20 AM
Comment #162635

JJ,

I watched your FoxNews clip, and what I saw was a rant from Levin with a couple occasional tough questions from the host that seemed to trip Levin up much too easily.

Conspiracy theorists,

You guys actually thought you had a chance in November? Don’t you know we have all the strategies to trick that dumb electorate into doing whatever we want? And then if we fall a few thousand (or million) votes short, we can block all the minorities from voting, because everyone knows “they” all vote in lockstep for the Dems (just like “they” all like certain foods and have a thing for menthol smokes, not to mention that none of “them” have driver’s licenses or any other forms of ID). And if even that doesn’t ensure our continued domination, we can just rig all the diebold machines and change everyone’s votes! Looking forward to November. MOOH HOO HOO HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Duane-O at June 28, 2006 5:45 AM
Comment #162637

“How is it a good thing when there was nothing illegal about the program?”
Who says there was nothing illegal about the program? Oh yeah, the same guys who’ve told us there’s nothing illegal about warrantless wiretapping.

Posted by: Thom Houts at June 28, 2006 6:26 AM
Comment #162638

“Our governing body are the real terrorists?
Take a few minutes out of your precious lives and watch some of those BEHEADING videos and then shut your pie holes………..”

care to see the mutilated bodies of children that resulted from SHOCK AND AWE? Try taking a few HOURS out of your precious life to look at those pictures (there are so many of them that is will surely take hours) and then shut YOUR pie hole.

Posted by: Thom Houts at June 28, 2006 6:30 AM
Comment #162663

Coonjay,

Connie & Maggie: Our governing body are the real terrorists? Take a few minutes out of your precious lives and watch some of those BEHEADING videos and then shut your pie holes………..

What did you expect? They are animals. So why did we go over there when there were no Al Qaeda there, no WMDs, and now, it looks like no strong desire for a democracy? I’m still scratching my head wondering what we are doing there?

Posted by: Max at June 28, 2006 9:05 AM
Comment #162670

“How is it that such charming and polite and friendly people as Americans, can display a degree of bitterness perhaps only just short of hatred of their compatriots?”

Well lets see Paul in Euro. It was when the PARTY became more important than COUNTRY.
During the 90’s, all who went against the govt were right wing fanatics. The very same people whining today, were defending the very same actions when it was “their” party committing the crimes. And the same people who are quiet today, were the ones complaining then.

“How is it that Americans seem, on the evidence of this blog at least, to be so bitterly divided?”

Thats easy.
As long as the govt is controlled by their party and is taking away rights that they disagree with, they believe all is good.

Just give it some time Paul. As soon as the left gets back in power, the roles will once again switch.

Posted by: kctim at June 28, 2006 9:46 AM
Comment #162682

“As soon as the left gets back in power, the roles will once again switch.”

Will not happen in the near future. The Liberal left has hijacked the democratic party and Americans will not put them in power as long as the party allows them to maintain control. San Deigo has already backfired on the democrats. McCain/Condi ticket wiould crush anything the democrats have to put up in 2008.

Another big issue for the left is realizing that the enemy is not Bush and the administration. NY Times should be prosecuted for treason in order to set an example. The program was perfectly legal and they knew it. Government is SUPPOSE to protect the people and the media and the bitter “whistle-blowers” want to circumvent that simply out of bitterness. Grow up!

Posted by: Curmudgeon-at-large at June 28, 2006 10:26 AM
Comment #162686

Curm
Its VERY possible the American people will vote for what they believe will be a change. The fact that the Democrat party is now the liberal party, may not matter anymore.

And, IMO, as soon as the left starts using fear to scare Americans and take away rights again, the right will start believing it to be wrong again.

Posted by: kctim at June 28, 2006 10:46 AM
Comment #162688

“The program was perfectly legal and they knew it. Government is SUPPOSE to protect the people and the media and the bitter “whistle-blowers” want to circumvent that simply out of bitterness. Grow up!”

Wow… when you put it like that… “out of bitterness” - sounds like your quote is quite bitter. SHould we immediately dismiss it as well?

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 10:52 AM
Comment #162691

Tony,

I don’t know. Burden in proof is in your hands I suppose. Innocent until prove guilty? Got some proof? There are few who contest otherwise.

I’m one of those when I ask someone to do a job, I give them the tools to do the job. I realize there are those out there who don’t follow such guidelines and remain bitter that they just can’t win the White House. Ironic isn’t it, they are the same ones who cry about the program? The again, thats just me and I have some crazy ideas……

Posted by: Curmudgeon-at-large at June 28, 2006 11:13 AM
Comment #162692

Paul Do you Even Beleive this?

Posted by: justwondering at June 28, 2006 11:19 AM
Comment #162695


Wouldn’t it be great if we could settle all the questions that are dividing us by giving Cheney and Rove a lie detector test. I think it would be ablolutely great if they would voluntarily take the tests in the name of national unity. If everything is as the administration and its faithful followers claim it is, then they have nothing to lose and a nation to gain.

Posted by: jlw at June 28, 2006 11:23 AM
Comment #162697

It appears that the true islamic terrorists of the world are winning right here in the US. They want us to be angry with each other so they can continue doing what they want. They want as much political infighting as possible so we cannot be effective against them.

They are truly winning the war.

Posted by: Cliff at June 28, 2006 11:25 AM
Comment #162698

They have used our own system against us…brilliant…

Posted by: Cliff at June 28, 2006 11:26 AM
Comment #162699

“Our governing body are the real terrorists?
Take a few minutes out of your precious lives and watch some of those BEHEADING videos and then shut your pie holes………”

i will agree with you that calling our governing body terrorists is a little melodramatic and slightly out of line, but please do not assume that we are the only ones living in our own little bubbles. anyone who cannot see the erring of the administration in these past six years has immersed themselves so deeply within a false reality that i hardly believe there is any way to remove them from it. conversely, anyone who believes that the bush administration by itself is the culprit and that everything they, and all republicans consequently, do is pure evil need to remove their heads from the sand as well. but please, we should not be telling each other to shut up, it is not only childish, it is unamerican. the whole american ideal is that we CAN debate and express our opinions so that we may learn and grow from interaction.

Posted by: alefnaught at June 28, 2006 11:35 AM
Comment #162701

“i will agree with you that calling our governing body terrorists is a little melodramatic and slightly out of line”

I’m not so sure about that alefnaught. Seems our govt murdered 70+ American citizens in Wa, oh wait, that was more than 6 years ago so that doesn’t count over here on the blue side.
Nevermind. All that is bad is because of Bush.

Posted by: kctim at June 28, 2006 11:45 AM
Comment #162706

“All that is bad is because of Bush.”

kctim… I think you’re obsessing.

Come on, I know that there’s a lot of issue raised because of Bush, but do you really think it all simply because “we” on the left hate loosing? You really see no connection to the problems we face and what Bush has done while in office?

I know it might be painful to admit that someone whom you support and vote for (making an assumption here) has failed, but it has def. happened in the case of Bush II. Also, since when is it any citizen’s job to protect the President from critisism? What is gained? Anyone given that much power should be held to the absolute highest standard - and looking back for excuses or rationalizations will never improve their job performance.

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 11:59 AM
Comment #162714

Tony
“I know that there’s a lot of issue raised because of Bush, but do you really think it all simply because “we” on the left hate loosing?”

No. I think its all about the left not being in power and finding it harder to force their agenda onto everyone.

“You really see no connection to the problems we face and what Bush has done while in office?”

Of course there are SOME connections to SOME of the problems we face. Some of these problems are leftovers from the previous administration though and its funny how the left didn’t view them as problems until their guy wasn’t in power.
You put Bushs’ “problems” up next to clintons and there really isn’t that big of a difference.

“I know it might be painful to admit that someone whom you support and vote for (making an assumption here)”

I didn’t vote for Bush so its not painful.

“Anyone given that much power should be held to the absolute highest standard”

Yes they should be. But the left didn’t for clinton and the right won’t for Bush.
Party before country!

Posted by: kctim at June 28, 2006 12:12 PM
Comment #162730

—The republicans seem to have ha a problem called Rejection, they are not allowed to expound their frustrations on the (R) web sites, so they come here to vent their hostilities they are harboring, they can’t help themselves, so lets ignore them and get back to the post at hand.


Posted by: DAVID at June 28, 2006 12:56 PM
Comment #162734

“so lets ignore them”

Yeah, lets. Heaven forbid anybody work towards a common goal for the betterment of our country.

“and get back to the post at hand”

Ok.
Damn Bush! Bush is a Nazi! Bush is unfair! Every problem is because of Bush!
sob! sob! sob!

Posted by: kctim at June 28, 2006 1:03 PM
Comment #162739

“Of course there are SOME connections to SOME of the problems we face. Some of these problems are leftovers from the previous administration though and its funny how the left didn’t view them as problems until their guy wasn’t in power.
You put Bushs’ “problems” up next to clintons and there really isn’t that big of a difference.”

Can you please be specific? You keep launching into these generalizations… which are really impossible to debate. Who specifically always blames Bush for what is happening? What are SOME of the problems that were created by previous Administrations?

“But the left didn’t for clinton and the right won’t for Bush.
Party before country!”

I see you ignored the last part of my post: “…looking back for excuses or rationalizations will never improve their job performance.”

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 1:13 PM
Comment #162740

“Damn Bush! Bush is a Nazi! Bush is unfair! Every problem is because of Bush!
sob! sob! sob!”

Again with the obsessing… You’ve quoted this same mantra at least 100 times. Try to be specific.

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 1:14 PM
Comment #162744

Thom:

Who says there was nothing illegal about the program?

I have yet to see anyone give any reason for this program being illegal. I’m hoping you can help me on this. What I’ve heard is that the administration used subpoenas to gain access to the information (subpoenas coming from the justice/legal agencies) and that they briefed Congress on the SWIFT program.

Can you please tell me what areas of the program you consider illegal? I guess I don’t understand what specific issues you think are illegal, so it would help to better understand that. Thanks.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at June 28, 2006 1:23 PM
Comment #162755

Lets ignore George Bush and those who beleive we are and we will win the war on terrorism.Lets ignore the fact that we have the greatest economy on the planet.Lets ignore the fact that Americans do not want it to be legal to burn American flags.Lets Ignore the American people.

Posted by: justwondering at June 28, 2006 1:57 PM
Comment #162762

Tony
Who? You’ve gotta be kidding me.
This post is a good start. Bush says it was disgraceful for the nyt to print this because it could hurt gathering intel on terrorists. Its a pretty valid point too. But, according to the left, this just another attempt by to Bush to silence the opposition illegally and become a dictator. Talk about being overly dramatic.

And I didn’t ignore the last part of your post. I just dont think it matters. As soon as the left gets back in power, they will be blaming Bush for all the problems that arise during their time in power.

“Again with the obsessing… “

I’m not obsessing. Go back and read past posts or listen to radio or TV. The left is throwing everything they can to see what sticks so they can have an advantage.
Bush has a different view about global warming? Well thats only because he works for his oil buddies. There is no way it could be because he believes scientific study’s that show it could be cyclic. Na, gotta assume the worst for everything.
Local authorities didnt do their job after katrina? Well, thats ALL Bush’s fault. IF FEMA had been able to get there an hour after, the left would be complaining it should have only taken 30 minutes. Nevermind the logistics or lack or local communications.
Rogue soldiers go over the line at Abu G? Bush is personally responsible for their actions because he put them there. There is no way these soldiers are to blame. There is no way that Bush ensured the military was investigating. That must be why those soldiers got away with it huh.
On and on and on.

It may be obsessing to some, but I try to use the same rules all around. I dont ignore the good to promote the bad for political gain and I sure as hell dont see any difference in the way our country is being run now and how it was ran during the 90’s.

Posted by: kctim at June 28, 2006 2:09 PM
Comment #162775

kctim,

you must be kidding?!??

FEMA - even Browny is not giving the Bush administration a free pass on Katrina - why are you?

Rogue soldiers over the line at Abu Ghraib - so then explain to me how Alberto Gonzales legal memos on the use of torture are unrelated to the military’s use of torture

Global Warming - whatever you believe, you must at least concede that denying global warming is a minority point of view, bordering on outright contrarian. Bush’s opposition to global warming is most likely related to his oil ties. With less evidence, Iraq seems to be the same deal - because of oil.

If you believe that the people think otherwise, that is more likely a reflection of conservative leaning of the company you keep.

Posted by: CPAdams at June 28, 2006 2:26 PM
Comment #162776

I love the discussions on this site, even when there are disagreements most of the people on this site seem to really want an America that we can all be proud of. There have been some comments made about my assertion of terrorists in government, perhaps my view is a little melodramatic, however in all of these discussions we rarely imagine how we would see America and this administration if we were Iraqis. For those that still want to blame the Clinton administration, I remember the intense scrutiny that President Clinton, his wife and his administration endured to serve our country and the main lie he got caught in had to do with his libido and his marriage vows. Can you image the outrage we’d be hearing if this “War on Terror” had happened on his watch. I believe that we have terrorists in our goverment because a lot of these officials are so removed from everyday life they have no idea what their decisions cost everyday people. I live in San Diego and I’m telling you the truth although I’ve grown up here and work everyday and earn a decent living most of us are one paycheck away from being homeless. Say what ever you want to say about Bill Clinton but who knew that those were the good old days. Furthermore all these “compromises” of our rights
may be ok to some but what happens when the government calls you a terrorist because you dared to speak out. What happens when the same rules that you think are ok for others get turned around and used against you. I can’t believe how many people never read George Orwell or learned how to think critically. I don’t believe that asking questions and getting information are against the law, yet. I wish that I could live in the sweet oblivion that would allow me to not be angry with what I see and hear everyday, but I stopped drinking a while back :)

Posted by: Connie at June 28, 2006 2:27 PM
Comment #162778

Exactly who does burning a flag hurt physically? Sure some feelings get hurt but that’s it. Who does waging an unprovoked and ill planned occupation hurt and why is the former the cause for a constitutional amendment but the latter cause for support and unquestioning loyalty?

Posted by: Connie at June 28, 2006 2:31 PM
Comment #162779

kctim -

I read a lot of opinion, but it’s pretty much tainted by your assumptions of what others are thinking. (You’re wrong about it, but I’m not going to convince you that you are.)

“It may be obsessing to some, but I try to use the same rules all around. I don’t ignore the good to promote the bad for political gain and I sure as hell dont see any difference in the way our country is being run now and how it was ran during the 90’s.”

- you mean except for the deficit, and the Iraqi war, and the missing Twin Towers, and 30 million people who’ve dropped into poverty, and Al Queda in Iraq, and the destroyed image of America abroad, and the massive loss of allies, and the complete lack of any government accomplishment in light of one political party controlling the entire government, and the 2500 American soldiers who use to be alive, and the 2800 Americans who use to work in the Twin Towers and use to be alive, a whole host of Republican representatives (and a few Democrats) who didn’t have legal/ethical issues, and a DC limo service who didn’t have defense/government contracts.

Other than that, things are exactly the same.

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 2:32 PM
Comment #162790

Connie it hurts parents of those brave men who gave their lives to protect what the American Flag stands for.If you dont think it matters take a walk any where U.S.A. on the Fourth of July walk up on a porch that is flying the American Flag ask those Folks if it matters.You will have many thousands of porches to choose from Democrat porches Republican Porches and yes even porches sat on by people of other Countrys They will all tell you this Flag Is an Amazing thing some with tears in their eyes Yes they will be glad to tell you if it Matters.

Posted by: justwondering at June 28, 2006 2:44 PM
Comment #162801

CPA
“FEMA - even Browny is not giving the Bush administration a free pass on Katrina - why are you?”

It was an expected natural disaster. Local authorities did not have a usefull plan and failed in every area. That is where the blame lies.
Brown showed he was not up for the job and resigned (was fired).

“Rogue soldiers over the line at Abu Ghraib - so then explain to me how Alberto Gonzales legal memos on the use of torture are unrelated to the military’s use of torture”

Ever served? It is the duty of every soldier to disobey an unlawful order. And somehow, I don’t think building a naked pyramid was in those memos. Also, torture is in the eye of the beholder.

“Global Warming - whatever you believe, you must at least concede that denying global warming is a minority point of view, bordering on outright contrarian.”

I agree. But it is not global warming that creates the disagreement, it is lack of facts supporting that man is totally responsible.

“Bush’s opposition to global warming is most likely related to his oil ties.”

That is your opinion, not a fact.

“With less evidence, Iraq seems to be the same deal - because of oil.”

Opinion.

“If you believe that the people think otherwise, that is more likely a reflection of conservative leaning of the company you keep.”

I do not really know any “conservatives.” Most of the “company I keep” are either Republican, Democrat, liberal or non-voters.
And, other than my liberal friends, everybody else hasn’t really seen a difference between 2006 and 1996 when it comes to their personal lives.

Posted by: kctim at June 28, 2006 2:53 PM
Comment #162806

Just Wondering,
The flag is an inanimate object, granted it has a lot of symbolism but it is an object all the same. The pain is in losing loved ones, watching loved ones crippled in the name of democracy, in the name of what the flag is supposed to stand for. Our soldiers are supposedly fighting for freedom abroad while the very government that chose to put them in harms way try to beat us into believing that safety is worth relinquishing constitutional rights. If a flag is set on fire your feelings are hurt, if you are shot your dead. If we are not willing to follow the constitution in life and death matters an amendment to the constitution for the flag is just a divisive way to confuse emotions with flesh and blood.

Posted by: Connie at June 28, 2006 3:01 PM
Comment #162811

justwondering -

Ask those same people whether the value their freedoms above a material thing such as a flag. The flag is a symbol, and it’s value is derived solely from the thing it represents.

I know so many people who fly American flags (me included) who love this country and want to take pride in everything the flag represents… but I’ve never felt bad when my flag gets ripped up and has to thrown away. I just go out and buy a new onw, and it feels exactly the same as the last one.

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 3:05 PM
Comment #162813

Ok Connie
“hFor those that still want to blame the Clinton administration, I remember the intense scrutiny that President Clinton, his wife and his administration endured to serve our country and the main lie he got caught in had to do with his libido and his marriage vows.”

Main lie he got caught in huh? Nice!
And, with no political spin, just hard facts that can prove without an absolute doubt, what lie has Bush been charged with?

“Can you image the outrage we’d be hearing if this “War on Terror” had happened on his watch.”

Yes we can. The left would be supporting everything they are against today and the right would be against everything they are for today. Other than the respect shown to our troops, there would be no difference.

“I believe that we have terrorists in our goverment because a lot of these officials are so removed from everyday life they have no idea what their decisions cost everyday people.”

I too believe this to be true.

“I live in San Diego and I’m telling you the truth although I’ve grown up here and work everyday and earn a decent living most of us are one paycheck away from being homeless.”

Kind of sounds like here during the 90’s.

“Say what ever you want to say about Bill Clinton but who knew that those were the good old days.”

Yeah, the good old days where we sold secrets to the chinese, where our rights were taken away and our fellow Americans were murdered by their own govt.
Boy, I sure miss those days.

“Furthermore all these “compromises” of our rights may be ok to some but what happens when the government calls you a terrorist because you dared to speak out.”

Dont you really mean all these compromises of our rights, THAT YOU AGREE WITH? If you dont, then I guess you to are disgusted with losing your 2nd and 4th Amendment rights last decade. My mistake.

“What happens when the same rules that you think are ok for others get turned around and used against you.”

Um, the left is showing us what happens.

“I wish that I could live in the sweet oblivion that would allow me to not be angry with what I see and hear everyday”

So do I. I’ve been pissed off for about 16 years now.

Posted by: kctim at June 28, 2006 3:09 PM
Comment #162826

Tony
“I read a lot of opinion, but it’s pretty much tainted by your assumptions of what others are thinking.”

Thank you. Now you know how those who dont conform to the blue column on here, feel everytime they read posts and replies from the blues.

“(You’re wrong about it, but I’m not going to convince you that you are.)”

Ditto.

”- you mean except…”

Actually, I meant things like Kosovo, Somalia and Iraq- wars that we had no business being a part of.
I meant our govt creating “deals” where our jobs are shipped overseas and then the following admin not doing anything to help.
I meant absurd tax laws that no admin will fix.
I meant having an illegal alien problem and our govt looking the other way.
I meant foreign terrorists killing Americans and our govt doing nothing about it.
I meant how our govt intimidates its citizens with threats of force.
I meant how corruption is rampant in DC no matter who is in power. From Chinese dealings to monks to the current problems.
I meant how we lost Constitutional rights last decade and continue to have our rights violated today.
etc…

But the left doesnt like to hear about any that, because it shows that it is govt overall, not just Republicans, that are to blame.
And rather than acknowledge this, the left would rather blame the “evil Republicans” until they are back in power and change their minds of what is right and wrong, again.

Posted by: kctim at June 28, 2006 3:28 PM
Comment #162835

I have noticed on the blog that if someone criticizes the left for their constant criticism then those who point out this faux pas are automatically republicans.

Wrong guess guys, I’m one of the ones you need to even hope of getting a sniff in 2008, the Independents. Both parties are a mess, but right now the democrats are more of a threat to America than the Republicans. It boils down to this:

Republicans are attempting to defeat terrorism, many mistakes not with standing. The strategy is even up for debate. Stop fighting the war HALF WAY.

Democrats started to fight terrrorism, then pulled back and now criticize every move the administration makes. They have no clue, no REAL agenda, no platform outside “We are not republican”. They criticize ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING!

Look at poll numbers, as low as Bush has been, the democrats have been as low or lower. If they really were doing their job they should be soaring rather than wallowing in the hog pen. Americans will not be fooled.

Its a matter of either voting Independent, and losing or voting for the lesser of two evils.

Posted by: Curmudgeon-at-large at June 28, 2006 3:47 PM
Comment #162841

“But the left doesnt like to hear about any that, because it shows that it is govt overall, not just Republicans, that are to blame.”

Wrong - I do agree that government has massive issues, and both parties are to blame. I would love to send every single representative packing in 2006 & 2008, just so the news guys get the message: It’s about doing your job, not about keeping it.

“And rather than acknowledge this, the left would rather blame the “evil Republicans” until they are back in power and change their minds of what is right and wrong, again.”

You assume no one here had issues with past Administrations… you’re wrong, and please feel free to hold me to this when DEMs are back in control of DC. I do not have much respect for either, but I align way more with DEMs than REPs, and right now, REPs are the sole source of the problems (they are the ones in complete control right now.)

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 4:06 PM
Comment #162843

“Damn Bush! Bush is a Nazi! Bush is unfair! Every problem is because of Bush!
sob! sob! sob!”

kctim,
You DO realize you post this EXACT sentiment in every post, on every subject, in every forum?
Is this all you have to say?

Posted by: Observer at June 28, 2006 4:07 PM
Comment #162849

“Both parties are a mess, but right now the democrats are more of a threat to America than the Republicans.”

Really? And this ties to the fighting the WOT half way? Seriously? It’s only the REPs running the show in DC, so if you have a problem with the way things are going, there’s only one party calling the shots. btw - you need to be a little more clear on what you consider the WOT? Do you lump Iraq in with that?

—— Just to clarify who is fighting 1/2 way, and then pulled back ——

“The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him.”
- G.W. Bush, 9/13/01

“I want justice…There’s an old poster out West, as I recall, that said, ‘Wanted: Dead or Alive,’”
- G.W. Bush, 9/17/01, UPI

“…Secondly, he is not escaping us. This is a guy, who, three months ago, was in control of a county [sic]. Now he’s maybe in control of a cave. He’s on the run. Listen, a while ago I said to the American people, our objective is more than bin Laden. But one of the things for certain is we’re going to get him running and keep him running, and bring him to justice. And that’s what’s happening. He’s on the run, if he’s running at all. So we don’t know whether he’s in cave with the door shut, or a cave with the door open — we just don’t know….”
- Bush, in remarks in a Press Availablity with the Press Travel Pool,
The Prairie Chapel Ranch, Crawford TX, 12/28/01, as reported on
official White House site

“I don’t know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don’t care. It’s not that important. It’s not our priority.”
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

“I am truly not that concerned about him.”
- G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden’s whereabouts,
3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02)

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 4:21 PM
Comment #162850

kctim -

I believe it was you who was asking for proof that Bush lied. How do the quotes above work for that?

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 4:23 PM
Comment #162851

” Both parties are a mess, but right now the democrats are more of a threat to America than the Republicans. It boils down to this:”

Funny how everyone that pretends to be an “independant” always attacks the left and defends the right.
Yes, crmudgeon, MANY MANY mistakes in fighting this war. And it isn’t just mistakes that draw our ire, its the arrogant DENIAL of those mistakes, the blame shifting games, the utter contempt for opposing viewpoints, the belittling of opposition.
Your a broken record repeating “you guys just criticize everything and have no plan”.
BULLSH*T. What we don’t have is a lockstep loyalty to ONE person. We have a mulititude of ideas, a plethora of types of candidates, and real choice. On the right, you have “stay the course” PERIOD.
Everyone marching in lockstep makes elections easier. But it aint good for America..

Posted by: Observer at June 28, 2006 4:24 PM
Comment #162853

Observer
Yeah, I do realize that. Its really the only answer I have since all the posts are “Hate Bush” posts and have having a differing opinion is wrong.

Of course, we all know if I really did blame Bush for everything, then those sentiments would be embraced by you all.

Posted by: kctim at June 28, 2006 4:34 PM
Comment #162858

Tony
“I believe it was you who was asking for proof that Bush lied. How do the quotes above work for that?”

Do you have proof that Bush is doing nothing to find OBL?
Hell, if the NYT gets hold of what Bush is doing in his pursuit of OBL, they’ll just tell the world that too.
I’d act like I didn’t care to.

Posted by: kctim at June 28, 2006 4:37 PM
Comment #162860

kctim -

What makes up a lie? (Words)

“The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him.”

That is a lie, pure and simple. (Speculation to the contrary without any fact seems to be insincere.)

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 4:43 PM
Comment #162861

“Funny how everyone that pretends to be an “independant” always attacks the left and defends the right”

Everybody who questions the left is either “attacking the left” or “defending the right” to you guys.
Its quite possible that more people simply consider themselves “independents” now because they are sick of being force fed BS by both parties.

Posted by: kctim at June 28, 2006 4:44 PM
Comment #162871

Tony
Do you know for a fact that OBL is not our number one priority or that we are doing nothing to find him? No, you don’t and neither do I.
If you believe we need a million soldiers looking for him, fine. Bush obviously believes our Special Forces and intel are enough.
You are at odds with how capturing OBL is being done. It doesnt mean Bush lied about getting him.

Posted by: kctim at June 28, 2006 4:53 PM
Comment #162874

“Seriously? It’s only the REPs running the show in DC”

Tony, get real. Who do you think is responsible for all the criticism? The democrats have enough votes to STOP ANYTHING Bush wants to do. So, they must have allowed Iraq to happen, huh…..Right? Democrats seem to always provide their represenatives a free pass on everything that happens. NOT ME!

As far as OBL….look how long it took it took to catch Carlos the Jackyal. Here is a hint: 20 years. And during that time, we were not leaking every counter-terrorim secret to the press. BTW, OBL is a minor figure in thw WOT at this point. With his health, its probably all he can do to stay alive.


“the blame shifting games, the utter contempt for opposing viewpoints”

Observer,

Is that what you call leaking secrets to the press? Calling the CIC Hitler? Attacking the administration while giving speeches in the ME? Calling our solders murderers?

Speaking of blame game, where is the blame on the democrats in congress who allowed the war to happen? I know I Know, Bush tricked them… Right? If Bush tricked them, then they are idiots and should not be in Washington in the first place.

Give us all a break. I protect no party, but I only hear one party imparting blame and accepting none. The democrats

Posted by: Curmudgeon-at-large at June 28, 2006 4:56 PM
Comment #162875

Dan Froomkin article Nuke the Messenger asks the most pertinent questions in the face of illogical claims like these:
Bush:
“We’re at war with a bunch of people who want to hurt the United States of America, and for people to leak that program, and for a newspaper to publish it does great harm to the United States of America.”
Cheney:
“The New York Times has now made it more difficult for us to prevent attacks in the future.”
Tony Snow:
“The New York Times and other news organizations ought to think long and hard about whether a public’s right to know, in some cases, might overwrite somebody’s right to live, and whether, in fact, the publications of these could place in jeopardy the safety of fellow Americans.”

Froomkin:

But not once has the White House definitively answered this question: How are any of these disclosures actually impairing the pursuit of terrorists?

As far as I can tell, all these disclosures do is alert the American public to the fact that all this stuff is going on without the requisite oversight, checks and balances.

How does it possibly matter to a terrorist whether the government got a court order or not? Or whether Congress was able to exercise any oversight? The White House won’t say. In fact, it can’t say.

By contrast, it does matter to us.

Posted by: Adrienne at June 28, 2006 5:00 PM
Comment #162877

tony,

Your statements are funny…
How can you use this argument to say that Bush lied? If it’s OK for the ultra-intelligent dems to change their mind on lots of issues, why can’t Bush?

Besides, you now as well as I do that we’re still after him (OBL)…

OR, I think Bush just tricked you into thinking he really doesn’t care and you believed him. He just doesn’t want OBL to think he’s all that important, so he pretends to ignore him. (it could be that’s his strategy for Dems as well)

anyway…not a good example…

Posted by: cliff at June 28, 2006 5:03 PM
Comment #162879

Right on, Observer! Great reply to curmugeon.

Posted by: Adrienne at June 28, 2006 5:06 PM
Comment #162881

Curmudgeon re: Dems winning
“Will not happen in the near future. The Liberal left has hijacked the democratic party and Americans will not put them in power as long as the party allows them to maintain control.”

Oh, YEAH?

kctim, I’ve got to agree. Just once I’d like to actually see you tear into the right the way you’re always tearing into the left. You claim to be independent, but judging by your posts, it certainly doesn’t seem likely. Btw, when you’ve posted articles to this blog, they’ve appeared in the Red Column, so what is that supposed to tell us?

Posted by: Adrienne at June 28, 2006 5:18 PM
Comment #162884

Yo Adrienne,

Read your USA Today again…It’s definitely not a “YEAH?”

Posted by: cliff at June 28, 2006 5:31 PM
Comment #162887

“Oh, YEAH?”

Yeah, pretty much like they THOUGHT they had San Deigo wrapped up. Seen your poll numbers? More Independents are willing to actually vote Independent (a good thing). Maybe then we can have a legistimate third party, or put the Dem liberals out of business all together. Even better, no more Kennedys Moores or Soros tearing down America.
If the Dems would get out of these shadows, they may actually become a viable party again. Wow, think about Jack Kennedy would probably be republican today….

Posted by: Curmudgeon-at-large at June 28, 2006 5:45 PM
Comment #162888

Adrienne
VERY fair assessment on your part. Part of my problem with the left is that they ignored everything last decade and now expect to be taken seriously when talking about rights violations, corruption and the such.
I actually used to vote for more Dems than any other party, until they moved waaaaaaaay left.
And now I’m kind of stuck in limbo I guess.

Am I just a Republican in Indy clothing? I dont think so. How many pro-choice, pro-gay marriage atheist Republicans against the Iraq war do you know?

“Btw, when you’ve posted articles to this blog, they’ve appeared in the Red Column, so what is that supposed to tell us?”

Yeah. Doh!
I’ve since corrected that. I’m now in the middle column and my next post may be a tad bit more to your alls liking.

Besides ma’am, how many pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, anti-Iraq war, atheist Republicans are there?

Posted by: kctim at June 28, 2006 5:47 PM
Comment #162890

“Of course, we all know if I really did blame Bush for everything, then those sentiments would be embraced by you all.”

If you think were all that shallow, why do you bother posting here?

Posted by: Observer at June 28, 2006 5:54 PM
Comment #162893

“Everybody who questions the left is either “attacking the left” or “defending the right” to you guys.”

No, but the tone of your posts definitely falls under the “attack” genre.
You DO realize your on a forum entitled “Democrats and Liberals”
Did you expect dittoheads????
I guarantee you’ll get a more thoughtful response here than if you attempted to post statements against the right on a right wing forum.

Posted by: Observer at June 28, 2006 6:03 PM
Comment #162895

Good lord, you guys are really blind… or obstinent…

Bush states that OBL is our #1 priority and the we will not rest until we kill him… then he states that his not that worried about him.

One or the other is …??? A LIE.

Sorry you can’t see that… but it’s all there is his own words.

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 6:14 PM
Comment #162896

Correct me if I’m wrong, I’m open to learning new things but originally weren’t republicans the party of less government spending, more personal accountability and less government interference? I’m not asking for perfection from government, just a genuine concern for the people. True the Clinton Administration had it’s issues, but can anyone really say that they remember this level of contempt between the Administration and the people? I was younger then but I worked and was paid a livable wage, with health benefits. If wanting to live and let live, helping less fortunate people and not forcing my way of doing things on others makes me a liberal or anything else, count me in.

Posted by: Connie at June 28, 2006 6:18 PM
Comment #162899

“Give us all a break. I protect no party, but I only hear one party imparting blame and accepting none. The democrats”

Another right wing statement from a supposed independant.
Crmudgeon, many democrat senators and congressman have admitted their vote giving bush the power to invade was a mistake.
Here’s a quote from John Edwards a few months ago:”It was a mistake to vote for this war in 2002. I take responsibility for that mistake”

Here’s a quote from Kerry:
“It was wrong and I was wrong to vote for that Iraqi war resolution.”

Dick Gephart: “It was a mistake … I was wrong.”

There are more quotes if you care to research.
I think I made my point about “independants ” pretty well today.

Posted by: Observer at June 28, 2006 6:30 PM
Comment #162903

“More Independents are willing to actually vote Independent (a good thing). Maybe then we can have a legistimate third party, or put the Dem liberals out of business all together. Even better, no more Kennedys Moores or Soros tearing down America”

Excuse the harsh language, but, Independent MY ASS!!

Posted by: Observer at June 28, 2006 6:34 PM
Comment #162904

and by the way , these statements from Bush were directed at the American public to 1 - rationalize the Afg. war & 2 - rationalize the Iraqi war when #1 was still incomplete.

The idea of Bush lying to throw off the terrorists is still a lie, and a complete crock of an argument. kind of like Clinton lying about having sex with Lewinski to throw of the prosecuting lawyers. Yea, right.

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 6:35 PM
Comment #162913

Read your USA Today again…It’s definitely not a “YEAH?”

Umm, YEAH, it is!

Democrats are particularly engaged: 56% say they are “more enthusiastic about voting than usual,” the highest level recorded since the question was first asked in 1994. Among Republicans, 43% say they are more enthusiastic than usual.

Hello!

Americans are increasingly likely to identify themselves as Democrats. Including those who “lean” to one party or the other, 55% call themselves Democrats; 38%, Republicans. That’s the biggest edge for Democrats since 1998. By 54%-38%, the registered voters surveyed say they’d vote for a Democratic congressional candidate over a Republican one if the election were held today.

55% to 38%! Highest level since ‘98!!!

Democrats are preferred by double digits to Republicans on four of the five top-ranked issues: Iraq, government corruption, the economy and health care. Republicans are preferred by 11 percentage points on handling terrorism.

Sounds like we’re doing very well, thank you very much!

Posted by: Adrienne at June 28, 2006 6:52 PM
Comment #163010

“Sounds like we’re doing very well, thank you very much!”

Then why have you only had (2) two presidents since Kennedy? (LOL). Why did you lose San Deigo? Sounds like democrats did that poll. However, numbers can be skewed but results cannot. For that matter, I want the democrats to make a come back, they are needed, badly, but not under the leadership of the far left. One party domination is not good for America. Its great to be party free.

Observer,

Continue to drink your blue Kool Aid. Freethinkers who actually look at news and not party talking points recognize that men like Kerry have not admitted any wrong doing until the LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS. In the meantime, he ran from his vote. Since he help put us there, what is he doing to help the situation? Cut-n-run? Very nice and responsible! I have never heard Bush avoid his decision. There is the difference…..responsibility.

Kerry did it to boost his falling poll numbers…….

Bush also has admitted to mistakes in the last 6 months. Giving him a pass Observer? He did it BEFORE Kerry. Kerry has always been a follower. Get your head out of your partys rear-end and look at what is best for the nation.

Your partiest are all alike.

Posted by: curmudgeon-at-large at June 28, 2006 9:25 PM
Comment #163105

curmudge:
“Then why have you only had (2) two presidents since Kennedy?”

In my opinion, because of a whole lot of monkey business in Florida in 2000, and in Ohio in 2004.

“Why did you lose San Deigo?”

Possibly because Dems didn’t spend as much as the GOP. Or possibly because of Diebold machines that can be hacked in about a minute. Or possibly because election workers were allowed to take the voting machines home with them a week before the election — which is illegal in this state and should actually invalidate that special election.
Btw, San Diego is the correct spelling.

“However, numbers can be skewed but results cannot.”

Numbers and results can be skewed in elections — and extremely quickly when we’re talking about elections that use computer voting machines and optical scanners that can be hacked and that have no paper trails.
Speaking of results though, maybe that’s why so many people seem to be ready to vote for Dems in the next election. The GOP holds all three branches of government, and the results have left too much to be desired.

“For that matter, I want the democrats to make a come back, they are needed, badly, but not under the leadership of the far left.”

You obviously don’t know from far left. To reach far left, one needs to look more toward the Green Party, and from there, even further left until they reach the Socialist Party.
But you know what? I’ve gotten the impression that people who say that Dems are too far left currently have created some kind of mythical Democrats in their minds. Because the plain truth of the matter is, the Democratic Party in the past has been far more liberal than it is currently. Furthermore, I believe that people who make the far left claim are somehow expecting the Democrats to become the kind of issue-driven lock-steppers that the GOP is — but our party has never been that kind.
Nor do we want it to be.
We’ve got every kind of American you could ever imagine under the liberal tent, and we actually LIKE having such a wide variety. This gives us a wider array of ideas to draw from and makes us better negotiators through necessity. This certainly also makes liberals more tolerant and accepting of differences between people, and more sensitive to the many differing needs that all sorts of Americans need answers and help for. And, I think these factors are the very reason that our party produces better and stronger leaders for this country, but of course, that is just my personal opinion.

“One party domination is not good for America.”

I wholeheartedly agree. It isn’t at all good. Just look at the complete shambles the country is in at the moment. We definitely need a change from the direction we’ve been going in.

Posted by: Adrienne at June 29, 2006 12:18 AM
Comment #163156

“We’ve got every kind of American you could ever imagine under the liberal tent”

Name one good ol’ Southern boy under your tent? When is the last time the party took the South? There is the problem. You won’t see the problems with your party and fix them. You cater to Hollywood and the far left, but you want to spin this truth by comparing yourself to the Socialist party. Any party Hollywood endorses probably does not have the best interest of the average American in mind.

We need to go in a new direction, but not the direction your party wants to go. As long as they remain blind to their problems I will sleep well. No platform, no plan for Iraq and no leadership. Hillary seems to be one of the few that sees the problem. She is attempting to become more centrist but as she does her leftist friends are blasting her.

Posted by: Curmudgeon-at-large at June 29, 2006 8:29 AM
Comment #163157

“Any party Hollywood endorses probably does not have the best interest of the average American in mind.”

You say this because you don’t agree with these people from Hollywood… but the idea that you have the DEM’s best interest at heart is suspect.

Posted by: tony at June 29, 2006 8:31 AM
Comment #163158

Adrienne:

I have my doubts that you were against one party being in control when it was the Democrats. Of course, I can’t prove anything about your feelings or comments in the early 90’s, so you can put your position wherever you choose. But from all your comments, I have a pretty good idea where it was at the time.

It’s very easy to whine about unproven election fraud. My kids used to complain about how the referee “stole” the game from them…but that was back when they were in elementary school. They’ve grown up since then, and don’t do that anymore.

If Democrats really want to win elections, they need to stop the sour grapes and focus on realities. They have to recognize what part of their platform appeals to people and what parts dont. Then, they have to decide if its worth altering their platform, staying with their principles and whether the platform be altered without sacrificing the principles.

We see John Kerry moving left now, admitting mistakes in his past voting etc to become a more forceful anti-war candidate. We see Hillary moving more centrally in an attempt to garner appeal in a national (not primary) election. But these are individuals—the party itself must decide what it wants to be. A house divided against itself cannot stand, as Lincon said.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at June 29, 2006 8:33 AM
Comment #163171

joebagodnuts,

Well stated, the democrats fighting among themselves will be their demise. Wigs are a thing of the past….could democrats?

Tony,

If you can’t see that the Hollywood opinion is a big time minority, then your party really is hopeless. Dems should run from that as much as Republicans should from Rush and Coulter.

You are correct, I could care less about the democratic party…..I do care about America and a single party system is bad for America. I think a third party is an even better scenario.


Notice: See any Republicans aligning themselves with Coulter or Rush?

Posted by: Curmudgeon-at-large at June 29, 2006 10:28 AM
Comment #163178

“If you can’t see that the Hollywood opinion is a big time minority, then your party really is hopeless. Dems should run from that as much as Republicans should from Rush and Coulter.”

I’d rather look at the issues at hand and decide what’s best in terms of those issues, rather than looking at what’s popular.

“Notice: See any Republicans aligning themselves with Coulter or Rush?”

Never really looked close enough to see who supports who on that side of the isle… but have yet to see a single REP denounce either person, so they kind of agree to co-exist. I agree to ignore them. Also, I do not care about the REP party… but I also don’t waste my time trying to give them advice.

Posted by: tony at June 29, 2006 10:43 AM
Comment #163185

“Never really looked close enough to see who supports who on that side of the isle…”

That means no, otherwise democrats would be all over it. Perhaps Tony, this is why you only see half the picture. You still don’t get it, party is not important America is important.

Therefore, you SHOULD want a two party (or more) system to exist. You SHOULD care they both remain vaiable. I have found most party elitist (reps and dems) would be happier if their party controlled everything.

Exactly why I think for myself and align with no party. If one happens to agree with me on a particular issue, so be it.

Posted by: Curmudgeon-at-large at June 29, 2006 11:04 AM
Comment #163199

tony:

Never really looked close enough to see who supports who on that side of the isle… but have yet to see a single REP denounce either person

The underlined section shows the problem with your mindset. You admit to not looking hard enough to know, yet you still stick to your own admittedly ignorant conclusion. By ignorant, I do not mean stupid…I mean that you’ve admitted to not knowing.

If you’ve read WB, you would have seen many people on the right deride Ann Coulter for her comments in her book about the 9-11 widows. Of course, if you haven’t really looked, then it would be easy to make dismissive statements. I’ve said myself that she went too far in her statements and that her comments were meanspirited and rude.

I’ll support Rush Limbaugh’s position on certain things, though I fully recognize him as part of the entertainment media, not the serious news media. Part of his job is to antagonize, which he’s very good at. Part of his job is to overstate the obvious, which he’s very good at. And part of his job is to toss out a conservative viewpoint, which he’s very good at. He basically does what Al Franken, Ed Schultz, Janeane Garofalo etc do for the left…but Rush does it to a bigger audience nationwide.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at June 29, 2006 11:59 AM
Comment #163225

—Adrienne- I see the good ol boys are attacking you from all sides. The failures of their party for the last six years, an trying to reserect the Robber Barron Days of the past, can not even post any accompplishnents made while being in total controll of the peoples Government. Keep up the good work, all is good even even though you are dealing with several attack trolls doing triple spin!

Posted by: DAVID at June 29, 2006 1:32 PM
Comment #163227

jbod:
“It’s very easy to whine about unproven election fraud.”
“If Democrats really want to win elections, they need to stop the sour grapes and focus on realities.”

In order for the Republicans (including you, Joe) to knock off the “whining” and “sour grapes” insults, you people really need to take your heads out of your asses about the problems with our elections, and start reading the news.
Yesterday the Brennan Center report was finally released. It was authored by well known computer experts like Howard Schmidt (former chief security officer at Microsoft, former Bush adviser on cyber security), Ron Rivest (expert on public key encryption) and Bruce Schneier (internationally renowned security technologist), among notable others. This report backs up everything I have EVER written about in this blog on the subject of the dangers of our elections being cast on computerized voting machines, or counted on by computerized optical scanners.
It’s being taken very seriously, and here are a few comments made by Congressmen regarding the report:
Rep. Rush Holt (D-NJ):
“This nonpartisan report by the Brennan Center confirms what many of us have believed for years: electronic machines are all vulnerable to error or manipulation that could change the outcome of elections. We ignore this possibility at our peril.”

“The vulnerabilities outlined in this report are serious, but they are also correctable. Time is of the essence — the Brennan Center urges action in time for the November elections. H.R. 550 provides us with the means to make these machines less vulnerable to manipulation and their results truly auditable in recount situations. Congress should pass this bill and help end any doubts about our commitment to transparent and auditable elections.”

Rep. Tom Davis (R-Virginia):
“Several years ago I realized that new machines purchased by Fairfax County, where I live, were vulnerable to electronic problems and would make it impossible to conduct an effective recount.”

More on the Brennan Report:
A Single Person Could Swing an Election
Electronic Systems’ Weaknesses May Be Countered With Audits, Report Suggests

Quote from the article:

New York University’s Brennan Center for Justice and billed as the most authoritative to date, tackles some of the most contentious questions about the security of electronic voting.

The report concluded that the three major electronic voting systems in use have significant security and reliability vulnerabilities. But it added that most of these vulnerabilities can be overcome by auditing printed voting records to spot irregularities. And while 26 states require paper records of votes, fewer than half of those require regular audits.

“With electronic voting systems, there are certain attacks that can reach enough voting machines … that you could affect the outcome of the statewide election,” said Lawrence D. Norden, associate counsel of the Brennan Center.

Another article:
June 28, 2006
Study: Fed ‘Guidelines’ Imperil E-Voting Security


Lou Dobbs last night:
Lou Dobbs on E-Voting Security: ‘Elections Can be Outright Stolen and No One Would Ever Know…It’s Incredible’
[Transcript of the segment, and link to the video on this page]

From Vote Trust USA:
Brennan Center Report Highlights Need For Auditable Voting Machines


Quote:

The Brennan Center Task Force on Voting System Security (an initiative of the Brennan Center for Justice at NYU School of Law), surveyed hundreds of election officials around the country; categorized over 120 security threats; and evaluated countermeasures for repelling attacks on voting systems. The study examined each of the three most commonly purchased electronic voting systems: electronic machines (“DREs”) with a voter verified paper trail, DREs without a voter-verified paper trail, and optical scan systems (“PCOS”). The report, The Machinery of Democracy: Protecting Elections in an Electronic World, is the first-ever systematic analysis of security vulnerabilities in each of these systems.

The report’s findings include:

* All of the most commonly purchased electronic voting systems have significant security and reliability vulnerabilities. All three systems are vulnerable to an attack involving the insertion of corrupt software or other software attack programs designed to take over a voting machine.

* Automatic audits, done randomly and transparently, are necessary if paper records are to enhance security. The report calls into question basic assumptions of many election officials by finding that voter-verified paper records without automatic manual audits are of “questionable security value.”

* Wireless components on voting machines are particularly vulnerable to attack. The report finds that machines with wireless components could be attacked by “virtually any member of the public with some knowledge of software and a simple device with wireless capabilities, such as a PDA.”

* The vast majority of states have not implemented election procedures or countermeasures to detect a software attack, even though the most troubling vulnerabilities of each system can be substantially remedied.

Link to the PDF of the Brennan Reports Executive Summary

Posted by: Adrienne at June 29, 2006 1:37 PM
Comment #163234

jbod:
“It’s very easy to whine about unproven election fraud.”
“If Democrats really want to win elections, they need to stop the sour grapes and focus on realities.”

In order for the Republicans (including you, Joe) to knock off the “whining” and “sour grapes” insults, you people really need to take your heads out of your asses about the problems with our elections, and start reading the news.

Yesterday the Brennan Center report was finally released. It was authored by well known computer experts like Howard Schmidt (former chief security officer at Microsoft, former Bush adviser on cyber security), Ron Rivest (expert on public key encryption) and Bruce Schneier (internationally renowned security technologist), among notable others. This report backs up everything I have EVER written about in this blog on the subject of the dangers of our elections being cast on computerized voting machines, or counted on by computerized optical scanners.
It’s being taken very seriously (finally), and here are a few comments made by Congressmen regarding the report:
Rep. Rush Holt (D-NJ):
“This nonpartisan report by the Brennan Center confirms what many of us have believed for years: electronic machines are all vulnerable to error or manipulation that could change the outcome of elections. We ignore this possibility at our peril.”

“The vulnerabilities outlined in this report are serious, but they are also correctable. Time is of the essence — the Brennan Center urges action in time for the November elections. H.R. 550 provides us with the means to make these machines less vulnerable to manipulation and their results truly auditable in recount situations. Congress should pass this bill and help end any doubts about our commitment to transparent and auditable elections.”

Rep. Tom Davis (R-Virginia):
“Several years ago I realized that new machines purchased by Fairfax County, where I live, were vulnerable to electronic problems and would make it impossible to conduct an effective recount.”

More on the Brennan Report:
A Single Person Could Swing an Election
Electronic Systems’ Weaknesses May Be Countered With Audits, Report Suggests

Quote from the article:

New York University’s Brennan Center for Justice and billed as the most authoritative to date, tackles some of the most contentious questions about the security of electronic voting.

The report concluded that the three major electronic voting systems in use have significant security and reliability vulnerabilities. But it added that most of these vulnerabilities can be overcome by auditing printed voting records to spot irregularities. And while 26 states require paper records of votes, fewer than half of those require regular audits.

“With electronic voting systems, there are certain attacks that can reach enough voting machines … that you could affect the outcome of the statewide election,” said Lawrence D. Norden, associate counsel of the Brennan Center.

Another article:
June 28, 2006
Study: Fed ‘Guidelines’ Imperil E-Voting Security

I’m posting this reply in two parts since I can’t seem to post it as one because of too many links.

Posted by: Adrienne at June 29, 2006 1:49 PM
Comment #163235

resurrect accomplishments control

Posted by: DAVID at June 29, 2006 1:50 PM
Comment #163237

Lou Dobbs last night:
Lou Dobbs on E-Voting Security: ‘Elections Can be Outright Stolen and No One Would Ever Know…It’s Incredible’
[Transcript of the segment, and link to the video on this page]

From Vote Trust USA:
Brennan Center Report Highlights Need For Auditable Voting Machines


Quote:

The Brennan Center Task Force on Voting System Security (an initiative of the Brennan Center for Justice at NYU School of Law), surveyed hundreds of election officials around the country; categorized over 120 security threats; and evaluated countermeasures for repelling attacks on voting systems. The study examined each of the three most commonly purchased electronic voting systems: electronic machines (“DREs”) with a voter verified paper trail, DREs without a voter-verified paper trail, and optical scan systems (“PCOS”). The report, The Machinery of Democracy: Protecting Elections in an Electronic World, is the first-ever systematic analysis of security vulnerabilities in each of these systems.

The report’s findings include:

* All of the most commonly purchased electronic voting systems have significant security and reliability vulnerabilities. All three systems are vulnerable to an attack involving the insertion of corrupt software or other software attack programs designed to take over a voting machine.

* Automatic audits, done randomly and transparently, are necessary if paper records are to enhance security. The report calls into question basic assumptions of many election officials by finding that voter-verified paper records without automatic manual audits are of “questionable security value.”

* Wireless components on voting machines are particularly vulnerable to attack. The report finds that machines with wireless components could be attacked by “virtually any member of the public with some knowledge of software and a simple device with wireless capabilities, such as a PDA.”

* The vast majority of states have not implemented election procedures or countermeasures to detect a software attack, even though the most troubling vulnerabilities of each system can be substantially remedied.

Link to the PDF of the Brennan Reports Executive Summary

Posted by: Adrienne at June 29, 2006 1:51 PM
Comment #163243

Adrienne:

I, as much as anyone, want fair elections. And I have no problem with reviewing and investigating software and hardware issues to make sure we get accurate elections. Its acceptable to push for accurate elections, and you can do so without claiming that Republicans have cheated in order to win. Even the Democratic party leaders have stayed away from making that claim, and they’ve all stayed away from pursuing any kind of legal action, which can be construed as an implicit statement that they haven’t the proof.

But its you, along with others, who tumble down the intellectual slope and claim that elections have been “stolen”. The left complained in Florida about silly things like a ballot designed by a Democrat, approved by both Democratic and Republican parties, that apparently was beyond the ability of many Democratic voters to use. Funny, it was well within the ability of Republican voters to use—-I’ll let you ruminate on what that indicates.

There will always be errors and mistakes made in elections. We cannot and should not hold to the concept that only perfection is acceptable. We should, though, hold to the idea that elections need to be accurate, and I hold to that as much as anyone.

By the way, you didn’t comment on whether you were outspoken back in the 90’s when Democrats controlled the House, the Senate and the White House. Be honest…did you have a problem with one party rule back then?

Posted by: joebagodonuts at June 29, 2006 2:13 PM
Comment #163261

“take your heads out of your asses about the problems with our elections, and start reading the news.”

Should-a, could-a, would-a doesn’t get it. My credit card information COULD be stolen on line but it has not. Proof, where is it? Show one ballot that was changed? One election that was changed? Hey, how do we know democrats have not been doing the tampering and still lost…..huh? I am all for improvements in our election process but you have dipped into the Kool Aid once again.

JFK was murdered by Oswald, aliens are not alive in Roswell and Bush won the last two elections. Deal with it.

Posted by: curmudgeon-at-large at June 29, 2006 2:45 PM
Comment #163285

“But its you, along with others, who tumble down the intellectual slope and claim that elections have been “stolen”.”

People who say things like this are people who have not looked, indeed have REFUSED to look at all the evidence which exists. This number tragically and illogically also includes a lot of chickenshit Democratic politicans who are deathly afraid of the “whining” and “sour grapes” accusations and insults that have been spewed by the right ever since the 2000 presidential election.
I wonder when will these politicans begin to change their tune? Perhaps when they lose the next election? Or the 2008 presidential election? 2010? 2012? Will it take riots and bloodshed for them to find their backbones and speak publically about this issue?
And here I, and many others who have researched and read about that ever-growing pile of evidence wait. We wait for the day when the Democrats will finally find the balls to stand up declare that yes, indeed it appears that American democracy has been overthrown and that the will of the American voter has been subverted by a group of power-mad criminals known as Republican leaders and Republican elections officials, and their collaborators who own computerized voting machine companies.

“you have dipped into the Kool Aid once again.”

I am impervious to all trolling and willful ignorance on this subject.

Posted by: Adrienne at June 29, 2006 3:23 PM
Comment #163307

Adrienne:

“We wait for the day when the Democrats will finally find the balls to stand up declare that yes, indeed it appears that American democracy has been overthrown and that the will of the American voter has been subverted by a group of power-mad criminals known as Republican leaders and Republican elections officials, and their collaborators who own computerized voting machine companies.

This wait may indeed prove evolution beyond a shadow of a doubt. Hope there are enough people alive to see it.

Government derives its legitimacy from the consent of the governed. This government has been illegitimate for some time now. Polls have indicated for some time that people have lost confidence in government being responsive to their needs. The most telling indication is half of elgible voters don’t vote—because they see no differences in policy, and no choices in cannidates. When will the majority of people realize this and pull the plug on this joke?

The revolution of 1776 was rife with risk—most of the leaders were landowners of position and wealth, but they convinced most of the people that throwing the British out was in their best interests, that self-governence was risking and treacherous, but it was the only honorable way to go.

When will the American people realize that this system is corrupt beyond redemption, filled with the dry rot of big business money, elitist policy- making, and imperialism in service of capitalist greed?

The fear of the unknown is great indeed, but if we as citizens don’t start asking the right questions of power, to stick our necks out, to sacrifice for the greater good instead of the GDP and next quarter’s profit margins, or paying the rent, there is a real possibility that events will overcome our ability to cope, to react with alacrity and measured wisdom.

Can this government be repaired by the same people that enable it’s dysfunction? Is patchwork reform of an antiquated and coopted and corrupt system really possible, much less efficacious?

I believe that any real, bloodless change has to be predicated on the majority of citizens short-circuiting the partisan rants and propaganda, and realizing that things aren’t working, and to call for a new constitutional convention to seriously analyze and construct a new way to go.

If not, there is always the bloody way. This country is well-armed and very polarized. Can we really afford such a walk on the dark side?

Posted by: Tim Crow at June 29, 2006 4:11 PM
Comment #163401

“The underlined section shows the problem with your mindset. You admit to not looking hard enough to know, yet you still stick to your own admittedly ignorant conclusion”

Thanks for the insults… and the short-sighted conclusion on your part. Whatever.

I do not care about Ann Coulter or Rush… I do not care who supprts them and who does not. They have nothing to offer me as either news or entertainment, so they are ignored. (NOT the same thing as ignorant… but if it makes you feel better by calling people names, then let them fly. They too will be ignored.)

Posted by: tony at June 29, 2006 7:44 PM
Comment #163521

Hi, Liked your blog and enjoyed your comments. Since you a regular writer and commentator on Politics, I would like to invite you to post your views and ratings on politics on ResponsePlanet.com. I believe your views will be much appreciated on ResponsePlanet.com; moreover, I am sure you’d welcome the opportunity to promote your own blog and attract some traffic.

Posted by: Kevin Collier at June 30, 2006 6:45 AM
Post a comment