Democrats & Liberals Archives

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi - Dead?

I woke up about 2:30 last night and turned on the TV. What greets me but news that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Further, it was still the only topic at 5:30am, and was still going strong on this evening’s cable channel. How amazing to hear that “two 500 pound bombs” killed al-Zarqawi and his “spiritual adviser”Sheikh Abd al-Rahman. One has to wonder at the news as al-Zarqawi has become virtually mythological. He was reportedly killed over two years ago in the Sulaimaniyah mountains (What Really Happened). He also had a prosthetic leg (you might think that - rather than fingerprints - would have narrowed the identification.

Also included in the What Really Happened article is the following:

"The Zarqawi PSYOP program is the most successful information campaign to date." -- Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, in an internal 2004 memo praising the propaganda campaign to hype the threat of Iraq's "terrorist mastermind" Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

And then there is the pointer to the Thomas Ricks 4/10/05 Wa. Post article "Military Plays Up Role of Zarqawi" in which he states:

The U.S. military is conducting a propaganda campaign to magnify the role of the leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq, according to internal military documents and officers familiar with the program. The effort has raised his profile in a way that some military intelligence officials believe may have overstated his importance and helped the Bush administration tie the war to the organization responsible for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.


The Zarqawi campaign is discussed in several of the internal military documents. "Villainize Zarqawi/leverage xenophobia response," one U.S. military briefing from 2004 stated. It listed three methods: "Media operations," "Special Ops (626)" (a reference to Task Force 626, an elite U.S. military unit assigned primarily to hunt in Iraq for senior officials in Hussein's government) and "PSYOP," the U.S. military term for propaganda work.

PSYOP indeed if al-Zarqawi was already dead.

Assuming that he was not dead, there is the issue of those 2 bombs which likely had a larger effect than killing two men. According to the Oppel and Mazzetti article, al-Zarqawi's safe house was in Hibhib (near Baquba north of Baghdad - there is also a map with the article). According to an article in the Anti-War Blog these bombs have a "a blast radius of 400 meters; every single bomb shakes the whole neighborhood, breaking windows and smashing crockery." And according to Col Daniel Smith in Bombs Away! or Bomb Any Way:"Today's bomb of choice for urban combat support is a satellite-guided 500-pound bomb, soon to be a 250-pound weapon. These bombs work--that is, kill--by the tried and true methods of blasting and spraying shrapnel 360 degrees."

While Oppel and Mazzetti do not state it in their article, the accompanying graphic (with timeline) notes six people were killed - "two other men, a woman, and a child." In watching the Pentagon bombing footage, it looks to me like the two bombs struck two different buildings in the same area. I can't gauge how far apart those houses are. According to the bomb site photos, the building (or one of them, was totally destroyed (or this one).

All the commentaries I heard today - whether left or mainstream - seemed pleased at the murder of al-Zarqawi. I have to wonder how far we have come when we cheer the murder of someone - even al-Zarqawi if he was the heinous individual he was portrayed as. First, assassination is a dirty business prone to error - particularly for a nation that says that it follows the rule of law. Second, bombs are hardly precision weapons even if they are laser sited "smart bombs." We saw this over and over during the invasion in the attempt to "take out" Hussein via bombs. It appears that bringing villains to justice is the least desirable choice. Apparently it is much preferable to bomb them, or bomb wherever we think they might be. I personally find this very troubling, though I likely hold a minority view.

We do know that someone is dead - actually at least six someones. Purportedly one of them is al-Zarqawi, who was perhaps precipitously reported dead two years ago. Perhaps he was a major player in the violence in Iraq. Perhaps it will do some good that he is dead. Perhaps we should make a note to ourselves so that he doesn't rise up a few years from now to cause more trouble. Regardless, the Pentagon is already pointing to the next leader - Abu al-Masri. - who is Zarqawi's lieutenant and Egyptian (USA Today). So an Egyptian replaces a Jordanian as head terrorist. Meanwhile, it is reportedly Iraqi secular violence that is killing so many in Iraq.

Posted by Rowan Wolf at June 9, 2006 12:35 PM
Comment #156020

These conspiracy thoeries only give us legitimate Liberals a bad name. Can’t we set up a fourth column for fantasy?

Posted by: David S at June 9, 2006 12:50 PM
Comment #156023

I take everything that this administration puts out with a grain of salt. Most of what we know about what is going on in this war and what happened on 9/11 came from the Bush administration. An administration that has proven itself to be a bunch of liars over and over.

Posted by: JayJay Snow at June 9, 2006 12:52 PM
Comment #156026

I find it interesting how well preserved his face was for error-free identification purposes.
Conspiracy theory or not I could care less. Hopefully soon Bin Laden will receive the same ending.

Posted by: europheus at June 9, 2006 12:58 PM
Comment #156028

lone wolf,

This whole thing was a smoke screen protecting Big Oil and Haliburton…

Posted by: Cliff at June 9, 2006 1:01 PM
Comment #156033

I agree w/europheus how strangely well preserved his face is( not to mentioned well photographed). Something seems very odd here, especially after seeing the photos of the bombed out houses. Thanks Rowan.

Posted by: mark at June 9, 2006 1:13 PM
Comment #156043

I guess you can only hope that Al Zarqawi is still alive

Posted by: Brian B at June 9, 2006 1:39 PM
Comment #156054

How sad that the author did NOT mention that most ptobably it was Zarqawi who personally BEHEADED Nick Berg (and with a dull knife), but no we should not be relieved he is dead. And, besides the cheering crowds of Iraqi soldiers, in what news photos have we seen “cheering” Americans???

Posted by: Kristy at June 9, 2006 2:04 PM
Comment #156059

Hey, way to go, Al Zarqawi is dead. Only 2,000 left to go. I’m not sure just how many members are in Al Qaeda, but you can believe they have a chain of command replacement for every member, from top to bottom each one of them. It will be many years before they are all found, and I believe there are replacements for them in training, growing old enough to join this elite group. It’s a creepy thought, especially with a president intent on pissing them off. We are committed at this point, no turning back, we’re in it for the long haul. Bush may be riding the straight line but if you were driving and your car went into a skid, would you not try to correct it, or would you punch the gas and head straight for the trees? It’s time for better leadership, and let’s work on our foreign policy, things are starting to get shaky.

Posted by: Scott Burgoyne at June 9, 2006 2:21 PM
Comment #156067

You mean a foreign policy of “appeasement”??? We are all co-conspirators in our plunder of oil and oil reserves. If you dont believe me, just dont drive your car today or try it for a week, really. Because I tele-commute for my job—what do all you libs do?

Posted by: Kristy at June 9, 2006 2:38 PM
Comment #156072

I find it interesting that when it is pointed out that something is a documented military PSYOP (psychological operation) and propaganda operation, that I am the one who is a “conspiracy theorist.”

Further, that in raising the issue that I am uncomfortable with a policy of bombing to murder, that somehow that indicates that I approve of terrorism or that I support “terrorists.” Nothing is further from the truth. However, we are not supposed to be terrorists and murderers. We are purporting to export justice and democracy - which means the rule of law. I am very concerned that not just those in power, but the public is becoming very conditioned to “killing” the “bad” guys no matter what it takes. That is at best revenge and not justice.

Further, the way we are “killing the bad guys” is also killing a number of people who have nothing to do with them - unless you are under the impression that everyone who is not American or part of the “coalition” who is in Iraq is “the enemy.” It is the death of innocents that is fueling hostilities against the United States.

Murder is murder, and that is what this is. The US has bombed many sites on “actionable intelligence” in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Too frequently, that actionable intelligence has been wrong. Simply paying the families of the innocent for the death of their loved ones does not excuse killing them in the first place.

I do not support the belief that “they” are so much worse than we are that whatever we do is OK. Nor that an enemy’s egregious actions justify our own.

Do I think that al-Zarqawi should have been brought to justice? Leaving aside whether this is him or not, and leaving aside the propaganda war to build him up, then he should certainly have been captured and tried for his alleged crimes. If found guilty, then whatever was decided as the appropriate punishment should have been carried out. That is what the rule of law is about.

Posted by: rowan at June 9, 2006 2:53 PM
Comment #156078

What I’ve been reading is that it was Al Qaeda who gave up the information on where Zarqawi was to the Iraqi police, who then passed it along to our military. I think they knew he’d become a liability to them, so they did this in order to put someone else in there. Perhaps because Zarqawi had made it a habit to murder too many innocent civilians, and he was therefore making it hard for them to recruit new members to their cause? Under the new Al Qaeda leader we may now end up seeing more focused attacks upon our troops, but much less violence being directed at the civilian population.

Posted by: Adrienne at June 9, 2006 3:05 PM
Comment #156079

There was a $25 million reward for Zarqawi. Maybe this is Al Qaeda’s new form of funding.

Posted by: europheus at June 9, 2006 3:09 PM
Comment #156084

lone wolf,

Please give yourself a reality check…
This world will never work that way…
Never has…Never will…

Posted by: Cliff at June 9, 2006 3:16 PM
Comment #156088

Lone Wolf,

Do you believe we are at war?
If we are not at war, then maybe a few things would make a little sense…But, we are at war.

Posted by: Cliff at June 9, 2006 3:20 PM
Comment #156094

The question here is why the Bush administration would want to seem so incompetent as to let this man appear to be dead for months. There have to be enought problems going on with the war for them to be inventing ones to solve, especially 2004. The problem with Conspiracy theories is their convenience, both for author and the supposed conspirators, rarely matches their reality.

Let’s give the WMD example to demonstrate this. Did they intend to defraud the American people on the war? I’m not sure they did, because that would mean taking a load of heat when things turned out to be true. What I think was at work here was combination of overconfidence in their knowledge of what was going on, and a prejudice against close examination of the evidence and qualification of conclusions on matters with which they believed they had the truth.

If they really wanted to make a workable conspiracy, they would have smuggled in WMDs made to order to convince people of the War’s justification. They wouldn’t have left themselves so vulnerable on purpose.

It might have been convenient for those looking for a Bin Laden style VIP terrorist to have Zarqawi be amongst the living dead. Then again, making the US look like it couldn’t defeat Iraq’s number one terrorist, especially with the daily bloodbaths and bombings, was decidedly inconvenient to the Bush administration.

I think the reason why conspiracy theories flourish is their simplicity. They are the security blankets of those who want the world to work rationally, who want white hats and black hats, and the black hats ultra-powerful so the predetermined good guys can shine by comparison to their foils.

Their simplicity comes at the price of their integrity, and their fit into the rest of the world. In my early teens, I was big on the UFO’s and mysteries of the unknown. Even now I enjoy works of fiction where people have mystical powers and such. However, I treat them as fiction.

The thing is, the mind and the imagination are very powerful, and at the same time are fallible. As a result of the mix, we human beings are vulnerable to imagining we know things that we don’t. It’s not merely a religious or a fringe problem. Anybody can fall victim to such illusions. I think of them as the price of being able to work out the unseen order of the universe: to guess right at what we don’t know, we must have the imagination necessary to deceive ourselves.

Some regard their own thoughts, feelings and theories without critical discipline, and because of that are prone to certain errors. Modern society has succeed on the basis of teaching people to recognize the signs of the correctness of the guesses they make of the world, a sort of recursive guessing about guesses.

That’s worked well, but it has it’s limits, because as the more observant of you have recognized, A guess about a guess is still a guess. Properly put together, theory can banish much ignorance and confusion. It is however still a human enterprise, and subject to that falliblity. Ultimately, the only way to keep correct overall is to make sure one’s structure of guesswork checks back against reality as much as possible. Also, though, one must recognize that one’s mental powers have their limits You cannot and will not understand everything.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at June 9, 2006 3:41 PM
Comment #156095


Mexicans flowing over the borders by the zillions with rakes & hoes … the Northern borders are packin snowballs.. & icecycles.. I say BRING EM ON! to the Iraqis.. bring em to our soil.. why not? what 2000? what airline will they take? Halliburtion AIR? BAGHDAD FLYME? BUSH-CHENEY AIRFREEDOM? all arrivals ar REAGAN AIRPORT… no passport needed.. all weapons received upon arrival.. proper paper work given by State Dept.

Time to take down America from within ! this would be a fair fight.. do you think we the people could take em on ?
I betcha we could..
FIRE UP those hatin redneck bush lovin votin gun totin guys & gals & have em surround the REagan airport & shoot em all as they step off the BUSH BACKED FLIGHTS.. for the coup against the citizens .. the FEAR facing us upon our own soil.. lets end it once & for all… send us your 2000 enemy!

sick of it all liars all of them………..

just how did that idiot survive that bombing .. ? just like the plane into the pentagon.. where did the plane & the people & junk go? nuts all nuts!
but we are just dumb Americans who grew up in stupid schools.. with dumb teachers who taught us nothing so we only believe what we are told..

yeah right

chilled in Kansas

Posted by: c hil at June 9, 2006 3:44 PM
Comment #156101

It is weird that a 400 ton bomb left Zarqawi’s body intact. I trust the military (for the most part), but I would like to hear the explanation. Personally, I believe it’s real, because I don’t think the suggested motives for there being a coverup are plausible.

It’s also true that the military hyped up Zarqawi’s role as part of a promotional effort, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t an important target. No one (I don’t think) is suggesting that Zarqawi isn’t a big deal.

Finally, I am probably as puzzled as Republicans regarding any kind of sympathy for Zarqawi. This is like a rampaging serial murderer being shot before he can get away and do more harm. It would have been criminal not to kill him. I have no sympathy for him. Anyone that does should think about how they would explain their position to the family of his next victim.

I have serious problems with the war in Iraq, but I never had a problem with the war against terrorism. This is a fight for civilization versus anarchy, and liberalism versus facism. These terrorists have sacrificed their lives, either literally or figuratively, to the idea of destroying America any way they can. I’m not sure how nice you can be to someone who lives to try and kill you, your family, and everything you believe in.

Don’t get me wrong, I still think we must be careful to preserve the line between us and them. Torturing others etc. is a huge mistake that plays right into these monsters hands. But I have no less sympathy for terrorists than I do SS soldiers. For me, they’re equivalent.

Posted by: Max at June 9, 2006 4:05 PM
Comment #156110

For those who look at this as “murder with a 500lb bomb” try to remember that this is a war. Whether you agree with the war or not, the point is still to kill the other guy. Civilian casualties are the worst part of any war, but when active combatants choose to hide among civilians to prolong their own lives they are more responsible for those deaths than the ones who carry out the attacks.

For those who think this is a major victory, don’t get too excited. For one, the major resistance group in Iraq today is the Shi’ite militia, which was not connected with Zarqawi. Second, while he was probably an important leader, he was not irreplaceable. So people on both sides (great victory for Bush OR excellent time to get out of Iraq) are probably giving this guy more credit than he deserves.

Posted by: David S at June 9, 2006 4:38 PM
Comment #156116

For all of you saying this is a war need to check and see if Congress DECLARED WAR or just gave Bush the authority to use necessary force. This is a technical point but is important. CONGRESS is the only BRANCH of the government that can declare war.
Just for a point of fact.

Posted by: timesend at June 9, 2006 4:54 PM
Comment #156122

David S:
“while he was probably an important leader, he was not irreplaceable.”

Like I’ve said, I think Al Qaeda gave up this intell on purpose so that they could to replace him with someone else. Caldwell has confirmed in his briefing that it was people in Zarqawi’s own network who gave out the tips which lead to our surveillance and subsequent air strike. I think it’d be more than a little stupid for us not to assume that they didn’t do this intentionally to get him out of the way and score some points with the insurgents, who knew he’d been doing a lot of reckless killing among Iraqi civilians.

Posted by: Adrienne at June 9, 2006 5:06 PM
Comment #156124


declared or undeclared…It’s a war…

Posted by: Cliff at June 9, 2006 5:36 PM
Comment #156135

It might have happened like that, but I see little evidence either way.

We’re not talking about a nuclear bomb here. From what I’ve read, under two hundred pounds of he bomb’s weight is actual explosive. You don’t want to be next to it, but it’s not going to destroy the neighborhood.

Changes in the materials used for the housing and setting the fuse so the bomb burrows into the floor before going off can limit the lethal radius, while bringing the structure down on the targets.

Besides, you don’t have to blow a person to pieces to kill them. Shrapnel does fine, like little bullets sent out. The pressure wave itself can be nastily effective, turning the person’s insides into jelly. After all that is done, if the person’s inside, the structure could still kill them by falling down on them, or even being blasted into them. Heck, folks nearby thrown by the blast could prove injurious, too.

That he survived the bombing is evidence of the focused nature of the bomb. That he died demonstrates it’s remaining lethality.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at June 9, 2006 6:07 PM
Comment #156136

Watch Blog Editors:
Why won’t you allow me editorial comment?

Posted by: jblym at June 9, 2006 6:07 PM
Comment #156146

I heard they traced a call John Kerry made to him using the NSA program for wire tapping. This is from a source inside the Libs circles that said this on condition of anonymity.

Posted by: nunya at June 9, 2006 6:48 PM
Comment #156147

It might have happened like that, but I see little evidence either way.”

Little evidence that they did it on purpose, or little evidence that they gave him up? Because I gave the evidence that it was Zarqawi’s own network that gave him up in the “1000+ dead” thread as a reply to the Sic Eagle.

Posted by: Adrienne at June 9, 2006 6:56 PM
Comment #156171

Now that the greatest threat to Iraqi democracy has beeen eliminated, now maybe we can concentrate on the elimination of the greatest threat to our own democracy, the corporately manipulated media and the millions of Americans who have allowed themselves to become too busy, to lazy, and in increasing numbers, too f@#$ing stupid to think beyond the cult created in the ten foot square in front of a television tuned to some nonsense pretending to serve the interest of the American people.

Posted by: expatUSA_Indonesia at June 9, 2006 8:33 PM
Comment #156178

bush polling is down… rove needs them up.. it is election time.. got to make room for the voting fraud to be ” possible” I mean with the polling numbers for a republican controlled country & military … government & supreme court .. not to mention local governments..

THEY NEEDED a BIG FISH .. but this stinks to high GOPer Heaven..
I am a liberal & to tell you the truth I do not want to spend my eternal life with the likes of the bush cabal.. tom delay for eternity.. O M G!
all that crap over & over again, like a stuck record.. a broken CHUCKY DOLL..

GIVE ME LIBERTY but don’t send me to the GOPer Heaven
thanks Cloud Guy

chilled in Kansas

Posted by: c hil at June 9, 2006 8:54 PM
Comment #156184

c hil,
Thanks for crushing the myth that only whacked out conservatives post incoherent babbles!

Zarqawi was not a criminal, he was an enemy combatant. He’s not an American citizen, therefore the Constitution doesn’t apply to him. Killing in war is not murder, unless you’re ready to call John Kerry and John Murtha murderers.

Posted by: Duano at June 9, 2006 10:09 PM
Comment #156198


As usual, a good, interesting point about Zarqawi’s own people giving him up in a powerplay. I have not had time to look at the evidence that you mention and there are many possibilities, but Zarqawi had become unpopular with even the Sunni Iraqis who thought that he was too extreme and he was trying to present a kinder gentler image of himself as a devote Muslim brother. There was also evidence of rivalry between Zarqawi and Osama. Zarqawi may have been worth more to the movement dead then he was alive. His followers have already said that - that his martyrdom will be an inspiration - and it probably will. These are devotely religious fundamentalist extremist. We poke fun at and criticise our own fundamentalist Christian extremist - for good reason - but these people are serious about their religion. They are not Sunday morning Christians. They mean bussiness. They make a sincere and serious effort, (some might say obsessive and compulsive effort), to live their religion. The fundimentalist Muslim extremist are no less serious - probably more serious about their religion. The fundimentalist Muslims are drawn to martyrdom, much the same as fundimentalist Christians are drawn to Armageddon. They are fascinated by it. They want it. We (that is the Bush regime) publicised Zarqawi and made a big deal out of him for the reasons that you have already mentioned - for political cover, to explain the insurgency of which he was only a small part, and to tie Iraq to 911 retroactively - all for political cover for the Bush regime. Now he will be a big martyr to the Muslim extremist and the new leader will be forgiven for Zarqawi’s sins and accepted by the Iraqi Sunnis. Victory for our brave soldiers, win /win for Al Qiada. I see no turning point here.

Posted by: Ray Guest at June 9, 2006 11:15 PM
Comment #156208

Who got the reward? 25 mil,wasn’t it?
Not to surprising the military played it up. They did something right for a change.

It is not likely it was faked also not likely it will help much.

Posted by: BillS at June 10, 2006 12:02 AM
Comment #156218


Zarqawi was not a criminal, he was an enemy combatant. He’s not an American citizen, therefore the Constitution doesn’t apply to him. Killing in war is not murder, unless you’re ready to call John Kerry and John Murtha murderers.

I would tend to disagree that there cannot be murder in a war - certainly there are and there are current investigations running (Haditha, deaths under torture, etc). I do not put al-Zarqawi in that type of situation, but say you are a soldier and you come across an enemy soldier sleeping in a ditch. You shoot and kill him. Is that murder or is that just war? Maybe I am naive, or idealistic, but it seems like murder to me. I think it is fair to lean either way on this one.

You bring up Murtha and Kerry. I have no idea whether in their combat experience they murdered anyone - or whether they killed people in combat. There is no evidence that I know of that they murdered anyone, nor to the best of my knowledge did John McCain.

Posted by: rowan at June 10, 2006 1:10 AM
Comment #156225

I will play along ok let us describe what a war is.
1. we need to define the “enemy”
1a definition. the enemy if terror? or is it the secraterian (civil war) vilance? or is it a nation state?
2. we need to define how to fight the enemy, 1a must be defined for this to work or we are just a “police” force.
Get the picture, they have a government, its not a war anymore, not for us anyway. this is their problem not ours.
War is a nasty thing. War is a nation state sanctioning murder. War can only be fought one way, that is to win. we have to know what winning is so we can get their.
To win a war you must use overwealing force. this force can be conventional as in boots on the ground or projected power. as in if we are attacked too much in a neighborhood, we level the neighborhood. this is how we won WWII not pussyfooting around tring to please all parties. This is why I am against this war, because we are not fighting it as a war but just policing around.

Posted by: timesend at June 10, 2006 2:25 AM
Comment #156226

—-Duano—Do you know what guano is? I believe you are off base with your rhetorical ramblings towards every one that believes differentialy than you.

Posted by: DAVID at June 10, 2006 3:05 AM
Comment #156232

Another little observation for ya, the military has just made Zarqawi a martyr in these peoples Jihad, Take it for what its worth more fuel for the fire no?

Posted by: Invictusmanen at June 10, 2006 4:21 AM
Comment #156233

If it helps you to sleep at night to believe that we killed the mastermind behind the Iraqi insurgency, then by all means believe. I, for one, will find it difficult to sleep never knowing for sure if a government that is rapidly taking control over nearly every faction in my life is lying to me… again.

And for those of you who chant “War is hell” to justify anything we do in Iraq, let me inform you, in case you didn’t already know, THAT’S WHY THEY HATE US!!!

Posted by: Thom Houts at June 10, 2006 6:26 AM
Comment #156237

I see the radical left is at it again. No good news is good to them. There’s always some conspiracy behind it.
Actually I’m surprised it took them a day to get their marching orders on how to put a bad spin on this.

Posted by: Ron Brown at June 10, 2006 7:04 AM
Comment #156238

Ron Brown-
The Right has its marching orders again, too: single out the few people who put forward a conspiracy theory, and act like this represents everybody. That way, you can treat the substantive criticisms of why we didn’t kill him four years ago, or give him the open playground of an unsecured country as being mere partisan hackwork.

This is what has lead the Right down the road of mediocrity: like a rebellious teenager, it takes the slightest hint of unfairness and magnifies it so it can excuse it’s latest failures and mistakes. This allows it to continually underachieve, since it can pretend the standards are unfairly high. The Republican party, though, has become a bunch of slackers because of it.

You might think it unfair that Bush is recieving criticism now, but he made a great number of decisions regarding this war that made it possible for the enemy to prolong and intensify it at their will. He’s never fully admitted to those mistakes, and now wants credit every time he manages to succeed at something in isolation. Well, the trouble is, he has a lot of debts to work off, before his successes can break even, much less make for him a positive image.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at June 10, 2006 7:20 AM
Comment #156240

I see that you hold a Ph.D. and teach teach sociology at a local community college. Strange position for an idiot to hold.

Posted by: Buz at June 10, 2006 7:32 AM
Comment #156249


AS ANDY COULTER WOULD SAY!!!! LIARS! this man who was so clean after being pulled out of a double bombed 500 pounder .. by our best bombers we have… just blasted out so nicely & posed so pretty for his framed photo .. like the Saddam sons.. yet we can’t see the flag draped coffins for fear it will upset us all?

we can’t see the blown up children on the side of the roads in Iraq? we can’t see them as the military go 60 some miles per hour through their tiny dirty streets while the barefoot kids are trying to play? as they lay smashed from the hummer’s huge tire tracks… while the laughing soldiers go by..

Funny how we can train our young men & women just barely 18 years-old, send them over totally brainwashed to kill anything that moves & to flip out & kill women & children when the flip out happens over the death of one of their own

… yet, it has taken over 3 years to try to get an army of Iraq formed to take over their own country.. NO infrastruture .. just base building.. roads to & from those bases.. GREEN ZONE BUILDINGS.. but nothing for the people but DEATH & pain & hunger & hopelessness! GREAT GOING AMERICA!!!! so glad we are doing a GREAT JOB

but_ then we have been busy building the largest US EMBASSY the WORLD HAS EVER SEEN smack dab in the middle of the BIG BAD GREEN ZONE .. so you have to wonder why the people of Iraq think we have no intentions of leaving anytime soon.. looking at us as the ENEMY WITHIN… we are the enemy TARGET now…

These people will fight us like they have fought for centuries against all other ENEMIES before …

I had one question when pumping out the oil from the ground, what do they put back in its place to refill the pockets of empty space?

I think we should give a good dose of Sandose 25 to every warmonger in this country so they can find their inner self & the reason for life on earth.. it sure isn’t pre-emptive death!

I am not a believer in the MAN’S BIBLE written some 80 years after the death of Jesus.. so gossip is gossip.. men will be men. .. & war will be war.. only the poor suffer from the wars of the rich man.. only the rich man profits from the wars that the poor men fight..

all you war mongers here on this web blog suck!
(If you are between 18 to 50 be ye male or female_ get your ass off this computer & sign up & get over to Iraq.. put your mouth where your ass is! I hear your calls into cspaM washington journal every morning.. you are not in school.. not at work.. get going.. join the army.. navy .. airforce.. what ever.. just shut up ! or fight!

as one of the felons in the GOP would say


chilled in KS

Posted by: c hil at June 10, 2006 9:26 AM
Comment #156257

I am bone tired of people on the right trying to make moderates and liberals shut up whenever they are critical of the Bush regime. Bush has undermined the Constitution of the United States of America through illegal wiretapping and by trying to turn harmless little signing statements into legal documents that subvert and nullify the Constitutionally mandated power of the legislative branch. Bush has repeatedly bald faced lied about illegal NSA spying. A high White House official has been charged with obstruction and lying involving the treasonous outing of a CIA agent. Several other officials are under “official” suspicion in the same case. The Downing Street Memo proves that Bush had already decided to go to war in Iraq even as he was bald faced lying to the American people and saying that it would be a last resort - that he would give U.N. inspectors a chance - another proven bald faced lie. These are not conspiracy theories. These are the simple facts. There are many simple facts in the same vein as these. Now I quite agree, some of us (me in particular) - some of us, in the center and on the left are a little quick to assume the worst of this corrupt regime… we are a little quick to be suspicious… we may be a little quick to jump to conspiracy theories… many of our conspiracy theories may be wrong… but only an idiot would trust this regime…

Our case against the Bush regime is like the case for evolution, metaphorically speaking. Many people naively assume that evolution is about missing links and that as long as there are missing links, that evolution has not been proven. The truth is just the opposite. Each new missing link that is found creates two new missing links, but the new missing links are smaller. Evolution is proven through multiple, unrelated, completely independent, streams of scientific evidence involving numerous different scientific disciplines and millions of facts. Individual facts can be wrong. Entire major theories can be wrong. You can argue about, and disprove the causes, the effects, the timing and the facts, and yet the theory is so overwhelmingly supported from so many different independent branches of science using so many independent and unrelated streams of inquiry that the fact of evolution is irrefutable. The same point stands for the Bush Regime, its corruption and incompetence. Many of our “facts” may be mistaken. Many of our conspiracy theories may be wrong. We can argue about the causes, the effects, the timing, and the “facts.” Yet the overwhelming evidence against this Regime from multiple independent sources makes the fact the Bush Regime is either dangerously evil and corrupt or dangerously incompetent, irrefutable.

Now you guys on the right want us to shut up about it. Its not enough that your President is subverting our first amendment rights - you are trying to stifle our first amendment rights at exactly the time when we most need to exercise them in order to protect them from Bush. America - Love It or Leave It - If you don’t love the first amendment - get out.

Posted by: Ray Guest at June 10, 2006 11:14 AM
Comment #156261

—-I hear a Buz but I do not see where it’s coming from. We need some electronic “RAID” to rid our selves of such a nuance.

Posted by: DAVID at June 10, 2006 11:37 AM
Comment #156274

“Bush has undermined the Constitution of the United States of America through illegal wiretapping”

There was no wire tapping because they didn’t listen in on the calls. They are just records of calls made. This is not illegal. What law was broken? Prove it.

Posted by: Ed at June 10, 2006 12:42 PM
Comment #156282


He most certainly did wiretap international calls and he amassed a huge data base of phone records - both of which are illegal and both of which undermine the Constitution.

Posted by: Ray Guest at June 10, 2006 1:16 PM
Comment #156319

—Ed—The Fourth Amendment to our Constitution has an exclusionary rule for wire taps called the Exclusionary rule. The Federal wire tap statue only allows these taps when a known crime was commited an only than can a Judge give any leagle ststus to that tap.Some Judges are more forgiving than other in that regard.

Posted by: DAVID at June 10, 2006 5:40 PM
Comment #156323


Posted by: DAVID at June 10, 2006 5:46 PM
Comment #156325

I think Rowan is right, that Al Zarqawi was elevated by our media and likely the Bush Administration who needed an Al Qaeda figure in Iraq.

I think the significance of his death is mostly PR. It’s still a good thing, in my opinion. Kristy was right to point out our media bias by the lack of cheering American photos. Guess were the Al Jazeera of the west.

Rowan, sorry but some people are in need of killing. They are anathema to society. Zarqawi was one in my opinion.

Posted by: gergle at June 10, 2006 5:54 PM
Comment #156372

“I have to wonder how far we have come when we cheer the murder of someone”

I must say, it is more of a problem when we have liberals “pulling” for animals like Zarqawi all in the name of the hatred of one man. Really, that is a shame. What happen to being an American and hoping for success of our men and women in the military? As a Gulf-war vet, I find all the ridiculous political posturing sickening.

The question must be asked, does ANYTHING trump politics and the party anymore? How about what is best for our nation and get off the alter of your “divine” party. Just one glimpse at the past should be enough to see “paries” are not the solution

Posted by: curmudgeon-at-large at June 10, 2006 9:24 PM
Comment #156434

“There was no wire tapping because they didn’t listen in on the calls. They are just records of calls made. This is not illegal. What law was broken? Prove it.”

THAT is exactly the kind of snide arrogance that I hope to be able to shove down the throat of every goddamned conservative I know when the powers of the legislative and the executive branches fall back into the hands of democrats. When we have a congress and president who have the interests of the American people… ALL THE AMERICAN PEOPLE… at heart, we will have have an attorney general who WILL show what law was broken, who WILL prove it. I hope that cocksucker in the white house goes to jail.

Posted by: Thom Houts at June 11, 2006 6:10 AM
Comment #156437

“when the powers of the legislative and the executive branches fall back into the hands of democrats”

Uhuh, and JFK will be back in the White House and gas will be .10 a gallon as well. (sigh). When will Americans learn government is not a solution? He didn’t break a law, vague wording provided ALL the power he needed to pull the trigger. Move on (.org), you’ll sleep better.

Posted by: Curmudgeon-at-large at June 11, 2006 6:18 AM
Comment #156445

Thom Houts,

I agree with your sentiments - not necessarily going to happen.

Posted by: Ray Guest at June 11, 2006 8:32 AM
Comment #156531

Since Canada has elected a GOPer for their Prime Minister.. they set up a sting.. broughtin their own material to set up the infamous 17 … and now we have …. a pre dawn raid of NOTHING.. it was a lie.. a big ass lie.. NOW THEY HAVE TERRORISTS .. o dear another BRIDGE TO BE BUILT

I say anyone who crosses the border has to have one of those little injections with a chip that we can scan.. then we know if they have crossed over before.. so we are not counting them over & over again..making a million into 12 million.. illegals.. ? we could just buld wall to wall WAL-Marts on all borders & coastal areas.. with door entries on both sides .. the workers can enter on the illegal side.. & the buyers can enter on the American side.. everyone buying cheap China crap .. & Wal-mart sending all employees to medicaid & foodstamps instead of paying them a living wage & offering them health care insurance so that cheap china crap becomes the PEA SHELL GAME for the REDNECK IDIOTS CAR CHASERS .. who vote for BUSH.. good gawd ..


boy .. FEAR FEAR FEAR nothing else but to do is fear

I noticed on the TV MOVIE CHANNELS it is either movies about JESUS or the DEVIL or VAMPIRES.. or WAR or SUPER WAR GAMES..


our newsprint sold out in the 1800’s …

and I thought this was a board for Democrats & Liberals why do I keep reading rants by GOPers?
gawd.. isn’t it enough that they have the entire country & network system ? do they have to have this small corner of the web too?

bored with reading republican rants on this web board… do enjoy reading great ideas by real hard core liberals.. Left on!
chilled in KS

Posted by: C hil at June 11, 2006 1:37 PM
Comment #156615

Remember the good old days when J Edgar Hoover had wire taped every one including Senators and Congressman. Any believe the same tactics are not being used at this very moment. In the event you are so smug as to believe you are to important this can’t happen to guess WHAT!

Posted by: DAVID at June 11, 2006 6:49 PM
Comment #156670

Look, the Z-man is dead. We should not rejoice that he is dead but he paid the price. You live by the sword, you die by the sword. That’s justice the military way.

The others killed with him we simply in the wrong place. The so-called “safe house” wasn’t safe when the hunted arrived at their door. There were children killed. That is upsetting. But if people with children in their homes will stop giving quarter to terrorists, then maybe less children will die because less will be at ground-zero.

But then again, the people who sheltered Z. may have been forced to shelter him through intimidation. We don’t know. It doesn’t change the facts, Z is dead and it’s about time we learned something from the Israeli playbook.

Posted by: ILIndCon at June 12, 2006 8:59 AM
Comment #156693

So it is ok … to kill so many to get so few?

little children, a woman who was with child?

that is so christian? that is what Jesus would do? hell I am an Atheist & I don’t believe in that.. and Christians has fire & brimstone coming out our noses…

I have no fear that the Grand Mother Earth will soon shed her filth from this planet..

and soon the GOD that the GOPers & some of these RIGHT WING DEM-FAKES will go to their golden city with all the harps a playin & the filthy liberals will all go to hell .. that is what they are waiting for..

or at least 144K of them.. the rest of you all think JESUS second coming will repair your filthy mess … & let you live here another 1000 years in peace .. laying down with the lion & the Lamb..
Hey got MILK?

IDIOTS.. we are all CARBON MATTER.. we are nothing.. but lifeform on a planet that spins like all other planets in our solar system.. you bunch of idiots..

besides the ” Z ” man as you call him .. isn’t even a real person… he was a ” SPOOK ” CIA .. you know those evil ones.. that go around the world and stir up little coups … start wars .. then back the worst dictator who will buy their WMDS…. try reading the real history of warfare & the US GOVERNMENT.. hell just go back to how they stole this land from my people .. who remain in the biggest camps to this day… politely named RESERVATIONS… how sweet of them..

WE HAVE A DO NOTHING REPUBLICAN CONTROLLED CONGRESS & A DO NOTHING BUT A KILL FIRST AND DON’T ASK pRESIDENT & THUGS in CHARGE OF OUR COUNTRY… with fixed black box voting machines & the voter frauds & media black out on exit polling… hey, we already know that even if the polls say that GOPers polling numbers are below 10% they will some how WIN…………..?

or did they? ever in the history of voting .. why do I say that? BECAUSE THERE ARE MORE of us than them.. there are only 18 families that benefited from the tax cuts..

THE CUT FROM THE BOTTOM UP including MILITARY AID FOR THE SOLDIERS YOU ALL LOVE SO MUCH.. when they get home and need health care & jobs..

We are spending over 9 billion dollars per month and that is the money we can see that is counted…
yet America goes without health care.. they are cutting out General Assistance for people who are disabled while awaiting their Social Security disability.. which takes forever.. Like to see a Mexican fill out that paperwork, btw: SS goes into the computer system & prints out every job you ever had your entire life.. I saw it done .. in front of my very eyes.. so if you fall for the crap that a Mexican can slip over the border .. get a fake SS # and some how get SS.. BULLSHIT!

same as anything else these idiots tell you…
If you were alive & an adult when Ronald Reagan was running for president.. he did the same damn thing with the BORDER… millions of Mexicans were going to come & kill us..

all I can say is it would make a killer movie.. the attack of the killer farm pickers..

or how the GOP can fool a simple idiot… & a really intelligent person too at the same time! amazing.. what fools.. could it be just for the WIN.. the power?

the Z MAN IS A CIA MAN……….the man in the photo could not be the man in the 40 foot hole blast.. nothing was left.. it is insane for any of us to swallow that glob of shit…

or perhaps that is how stupid they think we are.. I mean if we believed that we elected GWB not just once but twice.. then I guess they figure we will swallow anything..

this blog has turned into a GOPer party board.. screw it…

over n out..

TRY READING HISTORY.. not what the not news tells you… just study the history of religion..

you will have to really have faith to believe..

does god hear you?

c hil rafting

Posted by: c hil at June 12, 2006 11:23 AM
Comment #157062

It’s really quite simple. We are at war with terrorists. We will win the war when they quit, or we kill them all. People who have terrorists over for dinner are the enemy, as surely as if they were shooting at American soldiers. No terrorists for dinner = no 500lb. bombs coming through the roof.

It’s war. Only one side in this war will accept surrender, and that is us. Therefore, as far as the US is concerned, this is a fight to the death. They don’t care who you voted for, they don’t even believe in voting. If you are an American, and they can kill you, they will. We are fortunate that so many terrorists are willing to go to Iraq, on their own dime, and assemble in one area so it will be easier for us to kill them. All we need is the courage to do our part.

Posted by: David C. at June 13, 2006 1:44 AM
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