Democrats & Liberals Archives

Values Voters Come Home

Republicans like to claim that they are the party of the “values voter”, but aren’t we all “values voters”? Don’t we all base our vote on those values we feel strongly about?

A new research study sponsored by the Faith and Progressive Policy Initiative at the Center for American Progress finds that Republicans are out of step with the values most important to American voters. The Democrats seem to be much more connected to the values that are important to America. Among voters who participated in the survey, 46% voted for President Bush, while 36% voted for John Kerry in 2004.

The Common Good

  • 68% of voters strongly agree that the “government should be committed to the common good and put the public’s interest above the privileges of the few” (85% total agree).
  • 73% of Democrats, 62% of Independents, and 67% of Republicans strongly agree with a common good focus for government. A similar percentage of voters (68%) strongly agree that “government should uphold the basic decency and dignity of all and take greater steps to help the poor and disadvantaged in America” (89% total agree).
  • 72% of voters strongly agree that, “Strengthening our economy over the long term requires helping low-income families get decent work. That means providing a living wage, affordable health care and adequate educational opportunities to help them get back on their feet and take responsibility for their lives” (86% of Democrats, 66% of Independents, and 62 of Republicans strongly agree).
  • 51% of American voters strongly agree that, “We must do everything to defend our country, but our democratic and religious traditions demand that we be a force for good in the world and pursue just, peaceful and cooperative global actions” (52% of Democrats, 53% of Independents, and 51% of Republicans strongly agree).

Democrats and liberals have long stood for the common good. Conservatives continually whine about having to pay for social welfare programs. They want the poor and needy taken care of by faith based programs that rely on donations. Let's face it, the New Deal came into being because those types of programs don't work. Conservatives simply want to keep more money for themselves.

If the government abolished social programs tomorrow, faith based donations would have to skyrocket to meet the needs, something that is not likely to happen. Besides faith based organizations cannot be wasting their donations on the poor and needy, they need to use that money to stop the gays from marrying.

Do some people abuse the system? Sure, but I think most compassionate people would be willing to let a couple deadbeats use the system so that a family truly in need didn't have to starve on the streets. I think most would agree we need to fix the system, not trash it.

We may have to pay higher taxes into the system for 50 years or so, but then that money is returned to us at an increased rate at retirement. We will receive far more back per month, including Medicare coverage, than we put into the system. Some may draw on the plan for 30 years or longer. If you die before making it to retirement, I don't think you'll miss it.

Seperation of Church and State

  • 67% of voters believe that religious freedom is a “critical” part of their image of America compared to less than three in 10 who believe Judeo-Christian faith specifically is critical to this image.
  • Only 20% of American voters approve of leaders using the political system to turn religious beliefs into action.
  • Voters are split on whether the U.S. Constitution strongly reflects Judeo-Christian teachings (42% strongly reflective; 41% not strongly reflective). In addition, a majority of American voters (51%) prefers that their leaders keep their religious beliefs mostly to themselves as opposed to publicly expressing these beliefs.

Liberals have always been for protecting the wall between Church and State. It is that wall that protects your right to worship the way you see fit, without government intervention.

There is no morality in legislating morality. God gave us free-will for a reason. When asked what influences people rely on to help make choices in their own lives, 42% said “common sense” or their “own sense of right and wrong”, only 18% said “faith or religious beliefs."

Our Moral Responsibility to Mother Earth

  • 80% of voters strongly agree that, “It’s our moral and social responsibility to be good stewards of our land, air, and water and leave the environment better than we found it,” including 88% of Democrats, 79% of Independents, and 75% of Republicans who strongly agree.

These numbers are sure to make Al Gore proud. Now we just need to get the Neocons to care more about our air and water than the almighty corporate dollar.

Science: A Force for Moral Good

  • 80% of voters believe that, “Faith and science can and should coexist."
  • "Stem cell research can be a force for moral good rather than a moral failing.” Democrats and Independents more intensely agree with this argument on stem cells (65% and 59% strongly agree, respectively) than do Republicans (45% strongly agree).
  • 67% of voters agree that we can respect both faith and science “by believing that God created the world and shaped its purpose without rejecting scientific evidence that humans developed over the ages through evolution”

The Moral Minority

How do the moral issues that the Religious Right and Republicans in Washington hold dear, rate with the American people?

  • 7% said there was “too much sex and violence in the media.”
  • 5% cited “supporting traditional families.”
  • 3% cite “abortion and homosexuality.”

“Whenever the people are for gay marriage or medical marijuana or assisted suicide, suddenly the 'will of the people' goes out the window.” ~Bill Maher

Posted by JayJay Snow at June 6, 2006 12:00 AM
Comments
Comment #154646

An excellent overview of American opinion. The problem, of course, is who votes and the buying of access and influence by a wealthy, selfish minority… i.e., the Republican base.

It is important to keep in mind that the electoral successes of the GOP is based on the unlikely and unholy marriage of 3 small factions: the greedy-wealthy, the bigots, and the pseudo-Christian fundamentalists. The only characteristic these three groups hold in common is their hatred for Americans unlike themselves… i.e., 80% of the American population. The bigots and pseudo-Christians have bigotry in common.

Posted by: Dr. Poshek at June 6, 2006 12:04 AM
Comment #154654

Jay Jay:

One of the reasons why I read what you write, is because you make a point of typing clearly and spelling correctly. You format your thoughts concisely on the page, and that makes it easier to read.

I’ve noticed that when there is some concern for presentation, there is concern for clear and concise thinking. I appreciate your efforts, and always look forward to your contributions.

As for your article, it is often commented upon by people more gifted than I, that our country is more progressive in it’s thinking than the government. Why this poll progressivism doesn’t translate in voting patterns is evidence of the failure of the media and our educational system to truly educate the people. Ignorance takes a terrible toll on our country, but it is even more horrific when political operatives use it to further their political and ideological agendas.

I think there will be a special place in hell for those people.

The Truth will set you free.

Posted by: Tim Crow at June 6, 2006 1:08 AM
Comment #154657

jay good post. I find it hard to beleive 75% of republicans beleive it is our responsibility to leave our land air and water better than we found it. It would seem, according to the poll numbers, that most Americans are much closer together on most issues than our leaders and the media would have us think.

Posted by: j2t2 at June 6, 2006 1:20 AM
Comment #154679

Yeah Jay, but the Republicans can be swayed by anything that glitters or wedges an issue. So they may agree but it’s not that it means anything. they bandy together and run up a hitlist of implausible outcomes and how much danger they are in if people do anything—but going whacko and starting wars around the world deemed not insane. I don’t always agree entirely with the left but the right has a definite nihilist streak that is not something that you can count on. They live out in the sticks majoritively and don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground—and vote with that opinion they heard on Rush Limbaugh.

But actually with sportsmen and gaming reserve enthusiasts ecology and conservationism is actually high on their list. But then again they don’t care and will vote against their own interests. Why? Who knows. If there ever were a group of eskimos you could sell more ice to it would be them, and sometimes us. But then again if they saw a democratic party more in keeping with moderatism and not special interests they would sway I’m sure of it.

Posted by: Novenge at June 6, 2006 3:20 AM
Comment #154685

So… basically as it stands today, we are a slow moving boat heading for a waterfall… and very few are doing anything about it even though we all know that going over is sure disaster.

There is a call from the passengers to listen to reason… to turn off Fox News and Rush Limbaugh and to come grab the tiller and pull to shore, but many are mesmerized by the tales of gold and silver that await them at the end of the river. Gold and silver like gramma and gramps had. When the promise of being kings was real and where the unjust were cast out. Then the spoilers came and only a few got the gold and silver. So now its off to a new land… where they can be kings again… and where the spoilers will reap the bitter wheat that they chose to plant. The golden land of justice… where we, the good, will be kings again… like it never was before, but will be as promised.

The boat we are on is already in a fertile valley… if we all just grab the tiller and turn the boat to shore. With a little work we can reap a great harvest for all.

But the fields need clearing, which takes time… and every one will have to pitch in, which is hard… and sometimes the weak willed and the lame will share in the benefit of the work of all…

…and the siren song of the gold and silver around the next bend beckons those who want it all, riches untold… without all the pain… and the boat slowly heaves itself along in the current heading for the fall and the rocks below.

Wake up! Look ahead and see! Pull on the tiller those who have kept their sense call.

Posted by: LibRick at June 6, 2006 5:47 AM
Comment #154699

“If the government abolished social programs tomorrow, faith based donations would have to skyrocket to meet the needs”

I don’t think so JayJay. Prior to the New Deal, faith based donations may have been the way, but in today’s US, there is tons of help available that is NOT faith based. It is also very easy to set up a charity yourself, that is IF you care about the cause enough to actually support it.

“When asked what influences people rely on to help make choices in their own lives, 42% said “common sense” or their “own sense of right and wrong”, only 18% said “faith or religious beliefs.”

Protecting the rights of the minority is what used to seperate the US from democracy.
“Without government intervention” goes both ways my friend. Those on the left dwell on the idea that this is all about mandating school prayer and you are wrong. Its about “freedom of religion” with no regard to which side of the issue you are on.
“Without government intervention” means govt cannot force you to pray, BUT, it also means it cannot keep you from praying.

“Our Moral Responsibility to Mother Earth”

The vast majority of people, Dem, Rep or Ind, believe in taking care of the earth. It is the HOW of the matter that divides us.

“The Moral Minority”

You fail to mention the true “moral minority” my friend, Black Americans.
As race goes, Black Americans are one of the most spiritual as a whole and a huge majority of them vote against gay marriages.
So please tell me how it is just the evil Christian Republican bigots to blame, when one of the largest Dem voting blocks also supports their religious “morals.”
Is the black vote so important that liberals will “forgive” how they vote and not criticize them?
IF the issue is really that unjust, don’t you think people should speak out against ALL who are opposed to fixing it?

Also JayJay, since no one else will give an answer, I will try asking you:
Why is it wrong for somebody else to tell another, how they should feel and who they can marry but its ok to tell another person how they should feel and support?

Posted by: kctim at June 6, 2006 9:37 AM
Comment #154707

“Our Moral Responsibility to Mother Earth”

The vast majority of people, Dem, Rep or Ind, believe in taking care of the earth. It is the HOW of the matter that divides us.

=========

No, that issue is pretty black and white. Our problems there are staring us right in the face. Renewable energy, shifts in agricultural farming practices, shrinking food webs (from ground to shelves) will help us emensely.

Ethanol? Sure, but not with corn.
http://www.esf.edu/PUBPROG/BROCHURE/WILLOW/WILLOW.HTM
My college is doing some amazing research in the use of Willow opposed to corn as our primary source of biomass / ethanol production. Blows corn away in input/output, and it grows anywhere without as much pesticides. The farming of this crop can bring about a resurgence of local farmers and keep the money in the local economy. Win win.

So much energy is sunk into agricultural practices that aren’t sustainable because of the use of excessive nitrogen based fertilizers (made by oil), that if weren’t used, crops wouldn’t grow. What happens if there was an oil crisis? We starve. Support your local farmer, join a CSA. Know where your food comes from— and remember: supermarkets tend to rip off farmers and undercut the market. CSA’s give farmers a fair price for their crops… win win.

Also, if you buy local, think of all the shipping/cooling that is used now that would become totally unneccessary.

A sustainable utopia would ensue.

Posted by: tree hugger at June 6, 2006 10:07 AM
Comment #154724
Why is it wrong for somebody else to tell another, how they should feel and who they can marry but its ok to tell another person how they should feel and support?

kctim,

I’m not really sure what you mean. If two people are married they should support each other.

Posted by: JayJay Snow at June 6, 2006 10:58 AM
Comment #154750

JayJay - loved the post. and to see what kctim is saying, take out the phrase, “how they should feel”. Basically he’s saying, “why should the government be able to tell me who gets my tax money when my next door neighbor gets to marry his boyfriend which I don’t agree with”.

kctim - that’s what the government is for. They manage our tax money. Not who we share our lives with. There’s a huge difference.

Also, I work for a non-profit organization that depends on contributions. Believe me, without government contributions, there would be NOTHING out there. I regulate the medications of the mentally ill on a daily basis. Imagine who would be walking on your street hallucinating that you’re the anti-christ if I couldn’t do my job. Next time you bitch about social service programs, think about that!

Posted by: Lisa C. at June 6, 2006 11:57 AM
Comment #154756

JayJay

We are often not talking about goals but methods. For example, I am strongly in favor of protecting the environment. It does not follow that I believe the methods of government regulation are the way to do it. I believe in opportunity for the poor, but I have seen that many government programs actually have a negative effect. I believe government should be fair and represent all the people, but I see that the more government involves itself in the economy, the less it does these good things.

Liberals seem to think conservatives somehow want bad things and they confuse us with their stereoytpes.

I would also call Bill Maher’s bluff. If we submit the things he mentioned to the will of the people, I wonder what we would get. We would not have gay marriage. We would have abortion with significant restriction, ditto for marajuana and I doubt if assisted suicide would actually survive a vote, no matter what people say about their hypothetical position. That is why liberals tend to use the court and not the ballot for their favorite issues.

Posted by: Jack at June 6, 2006 12:16 PM
Comment #154763

Lisa C.,

Thanks.

kctim,

The fight for marriage equality is about equality. Heterosexuals are allowed to marry the one they love, so should homosexuals. It has nothing to do with how you “feel”, it is about who you are. Social welfare is not about equality, it’s about being a decent human being and a being part of a compassionate society. There is no connection. Unless you are suggesting that gays and lesbians should be tax exempt since they do not get equal representation. I believe that is called taxation without representation?

Religious organizations should lose their tax exempt status since they are so well represented. I believe that would be representation without taxation.

Besides, you are not the only one paying taxes. The government supports a vast number of programs that many do support and wish their tax dollars to go to, including some you may support. We have to live together as a society. You may support programs I don’t, and I support some you don’t. Your personal tax burden is not so high that it would make any difference in any one program if that revenue were lost. I don’t like my tax dollars going to pay for tax cuts to the rich. If it makes you feel better, just imagine that all your tax dollars went to the programs you support and none of it went to the ones you don’t.


Posted by: JayJay Snow at June 6, 2006 12:29 PM
Comment #154765

JJ
“I’m not really sure what you mean. If two people are married they should support each other”

Sorry, I worded that poorly didnt I.
Lisa kind of got it.
If the govt shouldn’t tell me who to love, then why should they be able to tell me who to care about?

Lisa C.
Jumping to conclusions doesn’t always work, sorry.

“Basically he’s saying, “why should the government be able to tell me who gets my tax money when my next door neighbor gets to marry his boyfriend which I don’t agree with””

Basically, I’m saying, why should the govt tell me who to care about and how I help them.
As far as my neighbor marrying his boyfriend, I could care less. I’m totally for giving people to make their own choices. I just happen to believe that it applies to EVERY choice, not just the choices I agree with.

“that’s what the government is for. They manage our tax money. Not who we share our lives with. There’s a huge difference”

Now that is funny, govt cant manage anything.
There is no difference between telling people who they can love or telling them who they should care about.

“Next time you bitch about social service programs, think about that!”

Oh, I think about that all every time I “bitch” about feel-good socialist programs.
You say without govt, there would be NOTHING out there. I say govt is NOT the answer to everything. In fact, it was originally very limited in what it could do.
But tell me, IF these feel-good social programs are so needed and loved by all, then why the fear in getting rid of them and making them voluntary?
IF the people who SAY they care really do care, then they would be able to fund these org’s without threats and force.
So why the fear? Because then people would be required to actually support what THEY think is best, instead of forcing everybody else to support their beliefs.

Our govt was NOT created for people to be dependent on, it was created to serve its people.

If you want to tell people who to care about, then don’t complain when they want to tell you who to care about.

Posted by: kctim at June 6, 2006 12:31 PM
Comment #154771

JJ
“The fight for marriage equality is about equality.”

Equality should be applied to every facet of life. It is hypocritical to suggest people deserve the right to choose who they care about for one issue, but think differently for another issue.

“Heterosexuals are allowed to marry the one they love, so should homosexuals.”

Absolutely! I’ve never said otherwise.

“It has nothing to do with how you “feel”, it is about who you are.”

Who a person cares about is who they are also. It is not your right, my right or govt’s right to dictate that.

“Social welfare is not about equality, it’s about being a decent human being and a being part of a compassionate society”

A decent human being as said by another. Again, neither of us nor the govt should force another person to accept our version of what is a decent human being or what is compassionate. It is an individuals right to determine that for themself.

“If it makes you feel better, just imagine that all your tax dollars went to the programs you support and none of it went to the ones you don’t”

No thanks!
I’ll always believe in the freedom of choice.

Posted by: kctim at June 6, 2006 12:44 PM
Comment #154774

Jack,

So you agree with my opening?

Republicans like to claim that they are the party of the “values voter”, but aren’t we all “values voters”? Don’t we all base our vote on those values we feel strongly about?

Liberals seem to think conservatives somehow want bad things and they confuse us with their stereoytpes.

Kinda like how conservatives confuse liberals with their stereotypes? It’s a two way street, Jack. Besides, I don’t think liberals think conservatives want bad things, they just think their methods are flawed.

The courts were put into place for a reason. I am sorry that you don’t always agree with their rulings. The Bill of Rights was put in place to protect minorities from the majority. With the exception of an amendment, the rights protected by this document are not up for majority rule. The reason that liberals use the courts is because liberals are for individual rights as protected by the U.S. Constitution. Liberals are not just going to standby as Conservatives try to railroad our individual rights and liberties, whether they are the majority or not.

Posted by: JayJay Snow at June 6, 2006 12:52 PM
Comment #154778

kctim,

I’m really not sure who is stopping you from freely helping those you care about. You are free to give to and help anyone you wish.

You act as if nobody supports social welfare programs. The fact of the matter is that Republican’ts won’t touch social welfare programs (except to expand them as they did with Medicare part D) because they know they are popular programs and eliminating them would equal political suicide.

I’m sorry that you believe your tax dollars are soooo much more important than everyone elses.

Posted by: JayJay Snow at June 6, 2006 12:59 PM
Comment #154782

“I’m really not sure who is stopping you from freely helping those you care about.”

I didn’t say anyone was. I said others are making the choice on who and how for me.

“You are free to give to and help anyone you wish.”

Again, I know this. But why must I give to help who YOU wish?

“You act as if nobody supports social welfare programs.”

Not at all. I know very well that the vast majority have been conned into depending on them.
You are the one acting like nobody supports them, otherwise, you would be in favor of making them voluntary.

“The fact of the matter is that Republican’ts won’t touch social welfare programs (except to expand them as they did with Medicare part D) because they know they are popular programs and eliminating them would equal political suicide.”

Believe it or not, Dems and Reps rely on these feel-good social programs to control the people.

“I’m sorry that you believe your tax dollars are soooo much more important than everyone elses.”

And why shouldn’t I feel that way? I am the one who did the work to earn them. Shouldnt I at least have the right to choose what I do with them?

You all speak of “values voters” as if they are evil because what their values are.
What makes your values and having govt force others to accept them any different?

Posted by: kctim at June 6, 2006 1:10 PM
Comment #154788

kctim,

You live in a constitution based representitive democracy. You certainly have the right to try to change the system if you don’t like it. You can try to change enough hearts and minds to abolish social welfare programs. That is your right. Just as it is my right to try to change enough hearts and minds about marriage equality. If you feel so strongly about social welfare programs then you need to do the hard work to make the change. Good luck.

Posted by: JayJay Snow at June 6, 2006 1:27 PM
Comment #154798

JJ
Its not about changing the system. I am very aware of the process.
Its about having the freedom to decide for oneself. I just believe it applies to all issues, not just the ones that benefit my position.
Which is why I got involved with this post. You spoke of “values voters” coming home, but what you really meant was “values voters with differing opinions” coming to your side.
You complain about them pushing their values agenda onto you but yet want to dismiss the fact that you want to push your values onto others.

Its not about freedom of choice or values being equal and fair to all, its about freedom of choice and values for what a particular side believes in, that you all are fighting for.
Equality and fairness be damned!

Posted by: kctim at June 6, 2006 1:47 PM
Comment #154816

Jay Jay, terrific article, very well written. You rock.

Posted by: Adrienne at June 6, 2006 2:46 PM
Comment #154836

JayJay

RE the courts, I was specifically refuting Bill Maher’s contention about democracy and pointing out that democratic will of the people stuff would not produce the results he implies.

Re values - yes. I vote according to my values. I vote for those I believe most likely to do the right thing. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t.

You are right about the two way street, since I would describe liberals exactly as you do conservatives re methods.

We do have some value differences, however.I think, conservatives value liberty more and liberal value justice more in the cases where they conflict. I also think that equal results versus equal opportunity are important dividers.

Posted by: Jack at June 6, 2006 3:49 PM
Comment #154855

“But tell me, IF these feel-good social programs are so needed and loved by all, then why the fear in getting rid of them and making them voluntary?”

kctim - feel good? you call what I do everyday feel good? These programs are in place because, in my case, these are the people that used to be in state run mental hospitals, remember those? They took these people out of the hospital and put them into the community because it’s cheaper than state hospitals. I am one of the many that take care of these people, keep them competant enough to regularly take their medicines so that they’re not out on your street victimizing your family and friends. All those “feel good” social programs you like to talk about and you have no idea what they’re really for. Public safety and security. I have one gentleman in particular who believes the government owes him billions of dollars because he invented the internet. Next time he asks me for answers, I’ll be sure to give him your address. You seem to have them all.

Posted by: Lisa C. at June 6, 2006 4:56 PM
Comment #154864

Lisa, you just gave kctim the perfect set-up for an “Al Gore invented the internet” joke.

Posted by: Adrienne at June 6, 2006 5:28 PM
Comment #154868

“Liberals seem to think conservatives somehow want bad things and they confuse us with their stereoytpes.”

No, we confuse you with the issues that get you guys worked up and decide to vote for a certain candidate.
Since last election, gay marriage wedge issues got out the conservative vote, and Al Gore is dismissed as a treehugger, we assume that you put gay marriage ABOVE the environment in importance.

Posted by: norby at June 6, 2006 5:33 PM
Comment #154871

“kctim - feel good? you call what I do everyday feel good?”

Too be honest, I really don’t have a problem with caring for people who really suffer from mental problems. It makes me feel good knowing that people like you help them out.
I was mainly speaking of things like social security, welfare, food stamps, so-called drug programs, abortion, needles etc… Those are all things where people have very different views on how to handle them.

“I am one of the many that take care of these people, keep them competant enough to regularly take their medicines so that they’re not out on your street victimizing your family and friends.”

Uh, yeah. Unfortuantly, I’m not the type who sits and waits for govt to do things for me, so they would “victimize” my family and friends just once and then the problem would be gone.

“All those “feel good” social programs you like to talk about and you have no idea what they’re really for. Public safety and security.”

Really? Wow. I guess your all for the Patriot Act and all the wiretapping mess also. They ARE for the public safety and security afterall.
I’m “all for” freedom and rights. Not just the ones I agree with.

“I have one gentleman in particular who believes the government owes him billions of dollars because he invented the internet. Next time he asks me for answers, I’ll be sure to give him your address. You seem to have them all.”

Oh god, please don’t. I’ve had enough al gore to last a lifetime! I don’t need him calling me at home to feed me BS too.

Posted by: kctim at June 6, 2006 5:36 PM
Comment #154872

Adrienne
You knew that was coming.
:)

Posted by: kctim at June 6, 2006 5:38 PM
Comment #154873

“I am the one who did the work to earn them. Shouldnt I at least have the right to choose what I do with them?”

You do chose. Through who you elect. If your guy doesn’t get elected, you don’t then get to abstain from paying taxes. If that was the case, I’d withhold mine from going into Haliburtons pockets.
As for making Social Programs voluntary, that would create more burden on those of us with consciences and create an unfair advantage for those without. Under your idea, a lot of self centered individuals would claim not to care about anything, and pay no taxes. See?
Question: Did you vote for bush? If so, did you expect he’d expand government power and spending beyond any liberal in history? How do you feel about that fact? Isn’t what were spending in Iraq just a giant foreign “feel good social program”?

Posted by: norby at June 6, 2006 5:40 PM
Comment #154875

“Really? Wow. I guess your all for the Patriot Act and all the wiretapping mess also. They ARE for the public safety and security afterall.”

Tell me which right of yours Social programs infringes on.
I can certainly tell you which rights of mine the Patriot act and Wiretapping does.

“I am one of the many that take care of these people, keep them competant enough to regularly take their medicines so that they’re not out on your street victimizing your family and friends”

Funny how the “support the troops” republicans so hate homeless people when a huge percentage of them are former Vets, abandoned by their country and still suffering from the effects of the horrors they witnessed and inflicted.

Posted by: norby at June 6, 2006 5:47 PM
Comment #154881

“You do chose. Through who you elect. If your guy doesn’t get elected, you don’t then get to abstain from paying taxes. If that was the case, I’d withhold mine from going into Haliburtons pockets.”

I don’t want to abstain from paying taxes Norby. I want taxes to be used as stated in the Constitution.

“As for making Social Programs voluntary, that would create more burden on those of us with consciences and create an unfair advantage for those without.”

Whose to say YOUR conscience is the right one to listen too?
Do for another and make one do for oneself both have positive points. That is why govt should not be in the business of thinking for the people.
As far as an additional burden, if its something you believe in, you should not look at it as a burden.

“Under your idea, a lot of self centered individuals would claim not to care about anything, and pay no taxes. See?”

Yes, I do see. But I feel Freedom is more important than envy and worrying about what your neighbor does or believes in.

“Question: Did you vote for bush?”

Answer: No.

“If so, did you expect he’d expand government power and spending beyond any liberal in history?”

Yes. Its an increasing problem that shows just how little difference there really is between the two party’s.

“How do you feel about that fact? Isn’t what were spending in Iraq just a giant foreign “feel good social program”?”

Not really. Providing for defense IS in the Constitution.

Posted by: kctim at June 6, 2006 5:57 PM
Comment #154885

“Funny how the “support the troops” republicans so hate homeless people when a huge percentage of them are former Vets, abandoned by their country and still suffering from the effects of the horrors they witnessed and inflicted”

Funny how the “support everybody” liberals don’t believe in it enough to actually lead by example, but would rather use govt to force others to believe as they do and to financially support their beliefs.
Funny how liberals “say” they want to help the homeless so much, but yet they still will buy a luxury item rather than actually doing something themselves with their own money.

Posted by: kctim at June 6, 2006 6:06 PM
Comment #154930

“How do you feel about that fact? Isn⦣x20AC;™t what were spending in Iraq just a giant foreign ⦣x20AC;œfeel good social program⦣x20AC;?”

“Not really. Providing for defense IS in the Constitution.”

Yeah, that Sadam was just weeks away from invading Minnesota. THANK GOD, God put bush in office to protect us.
Question: How is the reality, now PROVEN beyond reasonable doubt, that Sadam was no threat to our security still seemingly lost on some people?


“Funny how the “support everybody” liberals don’t believe in it enough to actually lead by example, but would rather use govt to force others to believe as they do and to financially support their beliefs.”

Government is the only medium capable of dealing with such a large scale problem.

“Funny how liberals “say” they want to help the homeless so much, but yet they still will buy a luxury item rather than actually doing something themselves with their own money.”

Helping doesn’t mean giving up everything. It isn’t an all or nothing question.
Why don’t you outline YOUR plan for dealing with poverty, mental illness, lack of health care and jobs that pay over the poverty level? Or do you even care?


Posted by: norby at June 6, 2006 8:46 PM
Comment #154965

“Give a man a fish and you’ve fed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you’ve fed him for a lifetime.” Conservatives tend to embrace the latter.

Posted by: Duano at June 6, 2006 10:08 PM
Comment #154968

“Teach a man to fish and you’ve fed him for a lifetime.” Conservatives tend to embrace the latter”

Yes, except by “teach”, they mean “learn on your own, loser. What, your parents couldn’t afford private fishing school??”.

Posted by: norby at June 6, 2006 10:15 PM
Comment #155000

““Give a man a fish and you’ve fed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you’ve fed him for a lifetime.” Conservatives tend to embrace the latter.

Posted by: Duano at June 6, 2006 10:08 PM”

Duano,

Not the present crop of Neo-Cons. They expect the needy to clean up the bones and guts. Then if a mess is left they believe in using those who left the mess as bait.

See if you can rent the old movie “Soylent Green”.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at June 6, 2006 11:37 PM
Comment #155080

Norby
“Question: How is the reality, now PROVEN beyond reasonable doubt, that Sadam was no threat to our security still seemingly lost on some people?”

Defense of our country means the military. We were not talking about whether Iraq was right or wrong, we were talking about taxes.
Our military is in Iraq, funding them is mandatory.

“Government is the only medium capable of dealing with such a large scale problem.”

I’m sorry you feel that way.

“Why don’t you outline YOUR plan for dealing with poverty, mental illness, lack of health care and jobs that pay over the poverty level? Or do you even care?”

I’ll give a brief, but you know you won’t like it.
Poverty: Find a job? Finish school? Don’t have kids until you can support them? Live within your means?
There are lots of ways to fight poverty, but since the most effective ways rely on the individual, you do not like them. They are “unfair.”

Mental illness: Help is justified.

Lack of health care: Buy a plan instead of buying beer, cigs, cars, wheels etc…
PLAN for an illness rather than expecting others to take care of you.

Jobs that pay over poverty level: Is the easiest to fix. Either get a job that pays better or live within your means.

The problem isn’t that govt isn’t doing enough or doesn’t have the money to do more, its the simple fact that PEOPLE themselves are doing nothing to help themselves.

Posted by: kctim at June 7, 2006 9:30 AM
Comment #155174

Great article Jay Jay,

Though I am a little skeptical of all the particular statistics used (I wonder just how the questions were asked), I do think that the most commonly shared values tend to fall on the liberal side of the equation, though the vilification of liberalism has many apolitical folks thinking that their liberal values are not really liberal.

Jack wrote:

Liberals seem to think conservatives somehow want bad things and they confuse us with their stereoytpes.

That is often true, but so is “Conservatives seem to think liberals somehow want bad things and they confuse us with their stereoytpes.”

We ought to ignore the vilification by association folks on both sides, and hammer out the best policies for the most people. Unfortunately the current political climate is poison to that process, and a lot of really decent people are wasting time on side issues. Anyone still trying to blame that poison on Democrats and Liberals isn’t paying much attention to who holds all the strings of power right now. I’m happy to stipulate that there are decent conservatives and demagoguic liberals, but it’s the demagoguic conservatives who are trying to destroy my country.

Posted by: Walker Willingham at June 7, 2006 1:17 PM
Comment #155201

“We were not talking about whether Iraq was right or wrong, we were talking about taxes.”

We were talking about the option to chose where your tax dollars go. I chose NOT to send mine into a black hole full of cronies lining their pockets at my expense. (you do know that was the real reason for the invasion, right??)

“Poverty: Find a job? Finish school? “

In a perfect world. What if the only jobs in your town are 7 bucks/no benies at wallymart? Ever try to pay your bills on that?
School? What if you cant afford college? bush has cut Pell grants, raised interest and cut funds on student loans while tuitions have skyrocketed. Not everyone has parents that will pay for school.

“There are lots of ways to fight poverty, but since the most effective ways rely on the individual, you do not like them. They are “unfair.””

Your view of the problem is simplistic.

” Lack of health care: Buy a plan instead of buying beer, cigs, cars, wheels etc…
PLAN for an illness rather than expecting others to take care of you.”

Nice. You have any idea what buying individual healthcare can cost now? It would eat up 50% of your ENTIRE INCOME if you were a typical retail worker. And if your trying to save for school, you do without “luxuries” like health insurance. Do without a car?? Unless you live in a city with good mass transit, a car is mandatory in todays america. Most job interviewers ask the question,”do you have reliable transportation”.

“Jobs that pay over poverty level: Is the easiest to fix. Either get a job that pays better or live within your means.”

Boy, what a simple world you live in. The fact is there simply are not enough good paying jobs in America today. Period. And poor people do live within their means. They do without healthcare till their sick enough to go to the emergency room. Would you turn them away in your simple world? Let people die on the streets so you can pay less taxes??
Meanwhile, the minimum wage hasn’t been raised in 10 years. Good paying manufacturing jobs are disappearing faster than bush supporters, benefits are becoming a distant memory even for GOOD jobs, and our fearless leaders can only think to waste time blathering about “gay marriage” and flag burning.
Nice.


Posted by: norby at June 7, 2006 2:17 PM
Comment #155441

Hello everybody! I am new here so I will give you a little backround about my writing style. I dont spell perfectly or punctuate correctly so please forgive me but when I want to type fast its very easy for me to type this way. I was turned onto this site by a friend and I wanted to add my 2 cents.

While I dont read many books or know alot of history I feel I know enough to keep a good conversation going for at least 30 seconds and my time is almost up. Being a little ignorant has had its advantages in that I wasnt brought up with any thoughts about any particular party politics I just had to go with who I thought would do the best job.

Nuff bout me. Here is a link that I find very helpfull and I hope that it hasnt been already posted but I am new and if it has been well it is worth looking at again.

http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/Moral_Values

Also does anyone remember a group called the Finders that resurfaced around the late 80’s ? There were some articles about child abuse and other like items that were associated with our own white house. Well that will do for now and I look forward to posting more in the future.

Good way to start the conversation jay jay.

Posted by: truck doctor at June 8, 2006 5:12 AM
Comment #155515

Norby
Thanks for staying with me.
Your reply brings us straight back to JJ’s post, “values.”
My last post described MY values and yours described YOUR values.
I don’t wish for my values to be used to force you to NOT help others out in the way you deem best, why do you wish to force me to accept your values and give to others in the way that supports your values?

PS
I know all too well what its like to live in poverty and to earn $7 or less.
I just chose NOT to depend on govt, but instead, did it myself.

Posted by: kctim at June 8, 2006 9:49 AM
Comment #155732

WE WANT A FREE INTERNET!


follow this link to send an email to your Congress people on the “Net Neutrality” vote!


http://www.itsournet.org/How_This_Affects.php

Thanks!

Posted by: Craig Dawson at June 8, 2006 6:49 PM
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