Democrats & Liberals Archives

Can the Bush Regime do anything right?

Yes they can. They are right about being right - right wing extremists that is.

They are fantastic at manipulating the American people. Do you realize that there are still about a third of Americans that support this - I will be kind - Guy? Do you believe that? How does anybody support him? Now granted, some people watch Fair? and Balanced? Faux Propaganda News. So, you have to make allowance for the idiots. And then of coarse you have to allow for ignorance. A lot of Americans simply don't pay attention to the news and current events. They are too busy trying to put food on the table. So, they are ignorant, not stupid, just ignorant. It is reasonable to assume that about a third of these people support Bush for no good reason, about a third of them don't know what to think, and about a third of them oppose him for no good reason. So what percentage of Americans actually support the Pres for a good articulate reason? The numbers must be awfully small. But how can anyone support him? The fact anyone does support him - especially anyone articulate and well informed - is proof that the "UnAmerican" Bushites still do an excellent job of manipulating the American people.

But beyond that: 911 (the pres read My Pet Goat for 7 minutes) - Tora Bora (outsourcing the job of smoking Osama out of his cave to Osama's former comrades in arms) - Iraq (cherry picked lies, not enough troops, disbanding the Iraqi Army, torture) - Asking Osama to manage U.S. ports - Katrina (the pres didn't leave any stains on her dress, but he did leave the poor elderly blacks to drown and starve) - Illegal spying and subverting the the U.S. Constitution (bald faced lied, then told us it was only a few people - a few hundred million - that is) - And now - terror funding for New York and Washington. See: Washington Post There are still some Americans that support this Guy? Do you believe that?

Posted by Ray Guest at June 1, 2006 10:28 PM
Comments
Comment #153594

My goodness, who will we hate when Bush is out of office. Where will we funnel all the animosity towards this administration. How we we cope with the departure of such an aweful group of politicians?

Posted by: Edge at June 1, 2006 11:24 PM
Comment #153596

Ray, we disagree.

And I don’t believe you actually believe all those things you write. If you do, it demonstrates how Republicans keep on winning. You guys refuse to understand your opponents. You just think that anyone who supports what you don’t like is stupid or misinformed so you cannot cope with the real situation.

This has been going on for many years. I remember during the Reagan times. The man won nearly 60% of the vote in 1984,and all the States except Minnesota and yet the liberals pretended he was a minority president. While they said Clinton, who NEVER won a majority of the American voters at all, had a grand mandate.

You may recall the confidence Dems had in October 2004. They were sure to win since Bush was unpopular. A generic Dem could beat Bush easily. Maybe a generic one could, but no real ones were able. The problem and strength of Democracy is that the voters choose between two (or more) REAL people. Bush might have been unpopular, but a majority of voters deemed the alternative worse. And BTW, the election was not close. Bush won a greater total number and percentage of the vote than Kennedy, Nixon (68) or Clinton (both times).

Of course you know Bush cannot run again and Cheney will not. The next Republican will have no direct connection to anything you think Bush did wrong. You may try to pin it on him, but that is not the way American politics works. For the first time since 1952, we will have a completely open race. Republicans will probably win. We may be stupid and ignorant, but we seem to be able to best you guys a lot.

I guess in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

Posted by: jack at June 1, 2006 11:30 PM
Comment #153597

Ray,

So what’s your point?
Are you predicting a landslide win for the Dems in November?

Posted by: Cliff at June 1, 2006 11:32 PM
Comment #153599

If things keep like this I cannot wait till the 08 primaries watching the dem factions cut each other’s throats to prove who is hollier than thou. With Bush gone.. all they will have is their hate for each other, i would think it will be more fun than watching Jello wrestling.

Posted by: RHancheck at June 1, 2006 11:40 PM
Comment #153602

Goodness, ray. You really need to do something about that streak of kindness that is showing. It sort of spoils your image.

First of all, I will agree with most of what you said, to a point. However, please explain how the Presdient is responsible for the debacle in new Orleans. The first line of response was the mayor, the second was the Governor..oops, both of them are Democrats..that’s why it’s all Bush’s fault. Sorry, I completely forgot.

BTW, what is going to happen in ‘08 when Bush is gone? How will the Dems channel all their anger? Will there be a united Democratic Party that has some message besides “We hate Bush”? Can’t wait to see what happens! Based on what I see today, the Dems have a chance to regain the Senate majority and maybe pick up a few House seats this year, but the White House in ‘08? Not until they get their act together and try to play nice with each other.

Posted by: John Back at June 1, 2006 11:55 PM
Comment #153609

John Back-
What gets me about the Republican rhetoric on Katrina is this emphasis on everything being in order before Bush can be blamed.

Frankly, that misses the point. The problem with Bush was that he could not, and perhaps would not pick up the slack when people’s lives were on the line. When something like Katrina bears down on the Gulf Coast and destroys multilple US cities in short order, the last thing we need is a policy attitude more intent on satisfying ideological concerns (like limited government and emphasis on state and local response), and bureaucratic gobbledygook than actually dealing with a pressing, present problem.

The Terrorists and the natural disasters of the next few decades will not wait until everybody’s prepared to take the hit. The storms will hit, the Earthquakes shudder, and the floods will overwhelm, and people will be in need. There will be plenty of time afterwards to sort out whose plans could have been improved, what things could have been done better by the locals, but in the end, People should not have to die because the executive branch of the federal government was at a loss to deal with non-ideal plans and results from the state and local levels.

Our Federal government must be able to take on the worst case scenario, where state and local authories may be unable to function, to come to their own people’s aid. Otherwise, we are vulnerable.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at June 2, 2006 12:26 AM
Comment #153611

Stephen,

I think that, “Frankly, that misses the point. The problem with Bush…” is the perfect liberal response to EVERYTHING.

Bush is the first President that is responsible for every decision, every natural disaster, every pandemic, and every terrorist threat, in the history of the United States. If nothing else, he has given democrats their first united front in decades. Now if they could just channel some of that angst into something useful.

Posted by: Bruce Penman at June 2, 2006 12:40 AM
Comment #153614

I copied the following quote from an area newspaper. Anyone care to guess who said this?

“The true cost of oil is paid in lives lost and the heartache of parents that their children paid with their lives, so others could be free of those that would attack America. This is the truly ‘Humanity hanging on a cross of iron’ when mothers, fathers, wives, children and close friends grieve when they hear of the death of their beloved. The loss is not only in the lives of sons and daughters, but also in the loss of sons and daughters growing up without the guidance of a parent and the loss of future generations yet unborn.

“Bring home the troops and convert the war funding and resources into alternative fuels and fuel cell development. This would go a long way to changing America’s energy needs from the Eastern world. It is ironic, while soldiers fight for freedoms elsewhere they lose economic and constitutional freedoms at home.

“Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children.

“This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.”

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at June 2, 2006 1:02 AM
Comment #153618

Kansas,
Awesome quote. Thanks! This person also said:

“Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid.”

Posted by: phx8 at June 2, 2006 1:25 AM
Comment #153621

anyone who supports corporate fascism needs to be put in jail. Corruption run amuck.

Posted by: Jake at June 2, 2006 1:38 AM
Comment #153624

Can Bush do anything right? Sure as long as he pays for the good news. Oh, wait a minute, maybe he can’t even do that right. From AMERICAblog:

Bush invites fake-Iran-story guy to White House as “expert” on Iran
by John in DC - 6/01/2006 09:07:00 PM

You remember. The fake story about how Iran was going to make Jews wear yellow badges in public. Wasn’t true. But that isn’t stopping the White House, a mere two weeks later, from inviting the “writer” of that story to brief President Bush on Iran as an expert.

This is who Bush is getting his war advice from. People who write stories that aren’t even true.

Not to mention, a very interesting “coincidence” that this “writer” writes a false story about how evil Iran is, a story that could help sway the American people towards going to war with Iran, and now we find out that there are clearly strong ties between the White House and this “writer.” Might make you wonder where that false story actually came from.

Things that make you go hmmm.

Posted by: JayJay Snow at June 2, 2006 2:32 AM
Comment #153630

It’s good to see the conservatives haven’t lost their knee jerk reactions. Just MENTION election and the response it guaranteed. “YOU CAN’T WIN BECAUSE YOU DON’T HAVE A PLATFORM EXCEPT I-HATE-BUSH”

Ray, into which catagorie does that response fall? STUPID or IGNORANT?

Certainly a person who doesn’t know a candidate’s stance on issues could be considered ignorant. But if he doesn’t know the candidate’s stance because he refuses to hear it, isn’t that stupidity?

When Russ Feingold calls for a censure of bush for illegally wiretapping American citizens, do the conservatives NOT UNDERSTAND that Feingold is opposed to illegal wiretaps??? Are they too stupid to understand that IS a platform?

When Hillary Clinton sponsors legislation to seperate FEMA from DHS, are they too stupid to understand that THAT is a platform?

When John Kerry proposes a resolution that calls for a withdrawal of American troops from Iraq by 12/31/06 leaving a Murtha-esque over the horizon contingency force, are they too stupid to understand that THAT is a platform?

When John Edwards talks about repealing the tax cuts for people who earn over $200K, are they too stupid to understand that THAT is a platform?

The line between those who stupidly endorse that shitheel in the white house and those who ignorantly endorse him is a fine one. My guess, is it’s a combination of both. See, unlike republicans, democrats don’t have simple answers that are inevitibly wrong to complex problems.

HOWEVER, to be fair. There is a certain percentage of very intelligent people who are fully cognizant of bush/republican politics and will continue to support them anyway. Bush identified them plainly. They are the Haves and the Have Mores.


Posted by: Thom Houts at June 2, 2006 4:40 AM
Comment #153633

Its fascinating that all the Repugs have left is the “Dems hate Bush” line. They don’t even bother to defend his policies anymore.

Where are the passionate cries for No Child Left Behind?

Where are the calls in favor of Iraq?

Repugs are hypocrites. All they hae left is to attack the opposition.

Posted by: Aldous at June 2, 2006 6:09 AM
Comment #153636

Aldous

Unemployment 4.7%. Economy growing at 5.3%. Great job market for new grads. Compare these numbers to historical or world figures. (Yes 1999 & 2000 seemed better. It is not the best, just very good.) No terror attacks in the U.S. since 9/11. All measured pollutants down.

I think presidents get too much credit for things, but you really cannot blame them when things are good.

Dems have managed to convince people things are bad, but eventually reality will come through. You see it already in polls where people think their own situation (the one they experience)is good, but that the general one (they see in the media) is bad.

Posted by: Jack at June 2, 2006 6:59 AM
Comment #153639

Politically, it’s easy, even glorious, to send troops to die in battle. But it’s political suicide to let a tax cut for the wealthy expire. That’s just the way we are I guess.

Posted by: Schwamp at June 2, 2006 7:28 AM
Comment #153645

This admirale man also said:-

“Second: No nation’s security and well-being can be lastingly achieved in isolation but only in effective cooperation with fellow-nations.

Third: Any nation’s right to form of government and an economic system of its own choosing is inalienable.

Fourth: Any nation’s attempt to dictate to other nations their form of government is indefensible.”

The nobility and inspiration of this speech encapsulates all that is best in American political idealism. It is besmirched by pygmies grubbing in the filth, who are the inheritors of that noble political vision. God help us all.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 2, 2006 8:17 AM
Comment #153649

Terror funding is just another political pork fest. This certainly isn’t new to politicas or unique to Republicans. Homeland Security was the biggest waste of money spent ,other than Iraq, in recent times.

We certainly didn’t need a new federal behemoth agency to figure out we screwed up intelligence. We needed to fire a few people, recommit to working the problem and go on. Both parties were guilty of this mess. Awarding Tenet a medal didn’t help.

Ray, I’m sure you are as frustrated with Bush as I am, but he isn’t Satan, just a nincompoop politician. I think Satan blogs on this site.

Jack, do you think Condi or Jeb have ties to GW Bush? Don’t you think them likely candidates in ‘08?

Posted by: gergle at June 2, 2006 8:36 AM
Comment #153652

Bruce Penman-
Do me a favor, and tell me I’m wrong when I say that it’s more important for a president to take care of the immediate pressing needs of disaster victims than to quibble over the deficiency of other people’s plans. Do me a favor and tell me that having the nation’s disaster response paralyzed for the better part of the week after a disaster as major as Katrina is some how excuseable. Do me a favor and comment on my actual premises, rather than try and psychoanalyze me.

There are real world issues that are a hell of lot more important to people than how much they hate or love Bush. As a matter of fact, those emotions are often the result of what people find wrong with Bush’s actions, and the objective failures of his administration. You can try and make this all about Bush’s image, but in the end, the reality of what Bush has done in office has a lot to do with his image with the average American.

I would apply this sentiment to any president. If Clinton had spent the better part of a week puttering around before he took action on an issue like this, I would be raking him over the coals, too. For me, this is about basic standards, basic duties I expect of a President, and of the federal government.

Bush would be held responsible for less, if he held himself responsible for more. Unfortunately, he’s more interested in guarding his public image. Well, to paraphrase the bible, he who tries to keep his image will lose it, and he who gives up his image for the sake of reality will gain it. Deeds matter more than words, and speak volumes that words cannot. As philosophical and verbose of a person as I am, I respect those who take action and take it wisely, above those who promise action, and either screw it up or fall short.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at June 2, 2006 8:56 AM
Comment #153653

Ray,

Still waiting on a reply…

Posted by: Cliff at June 2, 2006 8:57 AM
Comment #153655

Was this article a parody? Seemed to be one long left-wing talking point. Not inspiring at all. And certainly not going to convince anyone from the middle.

Posted by: nikko at June 2, 2006 9:02 AM
Comment #153665

Stephen D:

First of all, I disagree with the whole premise of your response. I don’t believe the Administration did all that poorly in it’s response/planning for Katrina. This was a epochal storm/disaster. I don’t believe that we should expect perfection, or be 100% prepared for such monumental disasters. Sounds bad, huh? I live in a 100-year flood plain. Trust me, there aren’t barriers and drainage that will handle a 100-year flood. That’s just too much insurance to buy for something that is so random and rare. I don’t want to pay for it. On the other hand, if it does come, and I can’t handle it, I don’t believe that the Federal Government should bail me out, either. Personal Responsibility. If I choose to live in a flood plain, why should someone else be responsible to save me from an act of God? Why should I be forced to pay for the rebuilding of N.O.? Why should people be allowed to build a city that is next to the ocean AND below sea level AND sinking! Okay… so that’s my rant on THAT subject.

Here’s my psychoanalysis: You may be fair-minded in that you aren’t partisan. But it appears as if you attack for the sake of attacking. It appears as though you believe it is a failure because it has President Bush’s name on it. Thus, you aren’t being true to yourself. That is what I am saying. Nothing less, nothing more (unless you ask).

PS I hated (H-A-T-E-D) the way we wasted time and money going after Clinton because he loved (I mean LOVED) cigars and women. It was pathetic, wasteful, and most of all, damaging to our country. I feel the same way about someone like Murtha, who hides under the cloak of “I love my country” as he disparages his country. As I watch that unfold, it just appears to me that he is posturing. Sorta like watching Gen. Batiste as he preps himself for a run in 2008 or FOR SURE 2012.

Posted by: Bruce at June 2, 2006 10:14 AM
Comment #153666

I have been watching this blog for a while now…and kept my mouth shut. HOWEVER….in this case I must say something. Bush is not only incompetent, he is shallow…stupid…ignorant and quite frankly out of touch with reality! AND ANYBODY who continues to support him is a fool!!!! I have always considered my self to be a fairly consistent Republican…but after Bush…NO MORE!!! I gotta tell you over-the-top chest-thumping die-hard Republican types….you might as well face reality…..your little joy ride through theocracy hell is just about over!! I live in about the reddest of the reddest of the red states….Alabama…and I can not count on one hand the number of people who support Bush!! So pack it up boys……no body is listen to you any more!! America is waking up from this nightmare and realizing we have been conned by a FOOL!!!

Posted by: Tim at June 2, 2006 10:21 AM
Comment #153670

I do hate Bush, and I think he’s earned my hatred a thousand times over. What he really showed me though was that I can’t trust Republicans. Bush’s warmongering, tax-cutting for the rich, debt-raising, environment polluting, excuse-making was all applauded by his party in the most asinine in your face manner. After running on a platform of “Compassionite conservativism”, “No nation-building”, and being the “Education president”, and “Returning honor to the office”, I am so sick of Republicans I could puke. He lied, and then took Republican values and policies and ran with them to the extreme. We never wanted it, we’ve seen where it leads now, and I hope its a long time before any of them come back into office.

Posted by: Max at June 2, 2006 10:40 AM
Comment #153672

Well put Max…and I couldn’t agree with you more!!

Posted by: Tim at June 2, 2006 10:43 AM
Comment #153678

Ray guest I for one support George Bush and let me tell you why.This is a dangerous world we live in.If not for george Bush it would be much more dangerous world.You liberals dont want a president who is his own man you want a president that agrees with your cut and run style of lets say John kerry or howard dean.These type leaders made this country weak during the viet-nam war.You see when you let murdering bullies run roughshod across the globe for 30 to 40 years you send a message of a lack of back bone.So basicly the jimmy carters and bill clintons of the world put the u.s. in this situation.You can not as a leader of the free world cower to those who wish to destroy you.And for the anti-war retired generals like Wesly clarke This man has proven more than once he knows nothing but cut and run and leave our troops behind remember black hawke down?So our military really did’nt grow balls till george bush was elected in 2000.Just look at the retired military that we concider hero’s John kerry, wesley Clarke and Rep. murtha Cowards every one.Ever ask yourself why you never see these frauds doing photo ops. with our military?Ever wonder why when John Kerry went to Iraq after the 2004 election you seen no footage of his glorious visit to the troops?I have first hand knowledge that our boys avoided him like the plague.These people have no fight now and had no fight then.These folks are professional fighters for the enemy and all ways will be.Only history can tell the true heros of any war.And history will say George Bush,Dick cheny,Donald Rumsfeild and condolisa Rice Are true heros and did’nt buckle under to those who know only RUN RUN RUN

Posted by: lookingout at June 2, 2006 11:11 AM
Comment #153682

Tim, Nice post! From these comments it seems to me that you are the most reasonable republican yet. You have the ability to step back and see incompetence for what it is. Jack, You have to come down off your high tower as editor of a hokey blog site and face reality. Economy growing at 5.3%. Come out here on the street with the rest of us working stiffs and see what the economy is REALLY doing. Auto dealerships vacant everyday. Not one car in the parking lots of furniture stores or appliance centers. Businesses slashing their merchandise 40 to 50% JUST to get people into the store. Companies and corporations laying off thousands of people to increase their bottom line. Yeah I guess the economy is just SUPER! (for the top one tenth of one percent.)

Posted by: sk at June 2, 2006 11:20 AM
Comment #153685

Tim,

I doubt you are a conservative, but that argument is for another day.

I only want to pick one bone with you:

George Bush is shallow? That would be about the last thing I would ever say about him. You don’t think he truly believes in what he is saying? That is ludicrous. Please provide basis.

Posted by: Bruce at June 2, 2006 11:29 AM
Comment #153686

Well Lookingout….you are a perfect example of what I said in my previous post!!! Blowing hot air just trying to convince yourself!!! The rest of the “intelligent…thinking” population has moved on!! You remind me of that movie “Pleasantville”. You speak of something that sounds and looks good….but in reality…there is no truth or substance to your claims! Oh well….people like you are in constant “rerun” mode: say it over and over enough times…you might just start believing the fantasy!!

Posted by: Tim at June 2, 2006 11:30 AM
Comment #153690

Bruce…EVERYTHING the man has said or done has been a lie!! He has no real personal convictions…or original thoughts for that matter!!! What ever will make him and his rich cronies richer is what he will say!! The real topper is that “God wants me to be President” line!! Give me a break!! If the man was any more shallow he’d be a mud puddle!!!

Posted by: Tim at June 2, 2006 11:35 AM
Comment #153705

SK I own a appliance store and can not keep stock.Isee the parking lots of department stores grocery stores car lots and resturants and they are packed every day.With all due respect how do you make these statements and expect any one to lend credibility to what you say?The truth is the econonmy is in great shape.Our economy is the fastest growing economy in the world!Despite anti-america americans which by the way is the minority.And if you doubt it you should get off your can and go to some of these stores and count cars on their lots.Why are liberals so afraid of the truth?3dollar a gallon gas and if it was’nt for the liberal media no one would care.sk name me one country that is in better shape than the U.S.if you can do this i will contribute money to you for a one way ticket to that country.You are a free american you dont have to live here.Go where your heart desires but please stay once you go.Its a sin to have to live in a place such as the U.S.A.

Posted by: lookingout at June 2, 2006 12:02 PM
Comment #153711

Ray, nicely done.

Jack:
“You may recall the confidence Dems had in October 2004. They were sure to win since Bush was unpopular. A generic Dem could beat Bush easily. Maybe a generic one could, but no real ones were able.”

Bush “won” because the election was STOLEN in 2004. Just like it was STOLEN in 2000.
Read this article Jack, and then tell me I’m wrong:
Was the 2004 Election Stolen?
By Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

Lefties, it’s a must-read for you too.

“All measured pollutants down.”

The measures on pollutants can no longer be trusted, due to the fact that the EPA is now controlled by the Republican Party who put people in there who are willing to skew or utterly falsify statistics on behalf of their Big Polluter friends.

Don’t believe me? Then read this:
EPA workers blast agency’s rulings

A few quotes:

In a letter sent this week to agency Administrator Stephen L. Johnson, nine representatives of unions representing about 9,000 EPA scientists, risk managers and other workers said the agency “has lost sight of its regulatory responsibilities in trying to reach consensus with those that it regulates, and the result is that the integrity of the science upon which Agency decisions are based has been compromised.”
The letter sent Wednesday represents the second time in recent months that workers within the agency have openly questioned whether their chief is putting children at risk by bowing to industry pressures.

“Our colleagues in the Pesticide Program feel besieged by political pressure exerted by Agency officials perceived to be too closely aligned with the pesticide industry and former EPA officials now representing the pesticide and agricultural community …” the letter states.

“Equally alarming is the belief among managers in the Pesticide and Toxics Programs that regulatory decisions should only be made after reaching full consensus with the regulated pesticide and chemicals industry.”


Posted by: Adrienne at June 2, 2006 12:10 PM
Comment #153723

Anti-American?!! Excuse me buddy!! I served 4 years in the Marines…4 years in the Air Force…I have voted in EVERY election since 1977…I have had a steady job for over 30 years….I have a 25 year old son now serving in IRAQ….I got myself thru college while working 2 and 3 jobs….I drive a FORD…..and I LOVE my country!! What I can’t stand…and in fact hate…is that the country I have dedicated my whole life to is being turned into some third world theocratic oligarchy by a bunch of super-rich zeolots! DO NO QUESTION MY LOVE AND OR LOYALTY TO THIS COUNTRY!!! Patriotism is NOT following the party line blindly!! I am a rational..thinking AMERICAN!! If that bothers you..then you need to get out!!

Posted by: Tim at June 2, 2006 12:36 PM
Comment #153726

I wonder how many of you guys would serve on a firing squad to shoot our troops for protecting the U.S.A.The economy is so bad this would be a good way to make extra money!But i know you LOVE your country.

Posted by: lookingout at June 2, 2006 12:49 PM
Comment #153727

Now you are just babbling….no intellience at all!! This is a waste of time!! Later!!

Posted by: Tim at June 2, 2006 12:54 PM
Comment #153734

Tim did you see any action in your 8 years in the service?How was the education benifits?I was drafted in 73 never seen any action i am not a hero because i never got to fight.Hero’s join to fight and then there is education.

Posted by: lookingout at June 2, 2006 1:11 PM
Comment #153737


I agree with Jack on this one. I don’t think we democrats have a snow balls chance in hell of winning the White House in 08. When it comes to lies, inuendo, misconceptions and fraud, the republicans are the masters of the world.

The democrats will try to counter with the truth. Rebublican lies will swallow the truth whole.

Posted by: jlw at June 2, 2006 1:22 PM
Comment #153744

The truth democrat style George Bush lied about W.M.D. in iraq tell that to those who were gased by saddam.Tell that to the iranians.George Bush went a.w.o.l. while serving in the military.Tell that to Dan Rather.George Bush can’t be re-elected in 2004.Tell that to john Kerry.No ties to terrorism in iraq.Tell that to the folks killed in Isreal by murder bombers paid for by saddam.Carl Rove leaked info.About vallery plame.Well come find out Vallery plame was not concidered under cover.George bush illegally tapping phone lines.Tell that to the millions of americans who think if he was’nt tapping phone lines he should be impeached. could go on all day but are just a few things liberals dont like to think about.Keep dreaming alice one day you will be in wonderland.

Posted by: lookingout at June 2, 2006 1:50 PM
Comment #153745

“Now you are just babbling….no intellience at all!! This is a waste of time!! Later!!

Posted by: Tim at June 2, 2006 12:54 PM”

Tim,
I wish I had a link to the original “troll” description I first read here at WB, unfortunately I don’t. Maybe someone will help me out.

Anyway, don’t feed the trolls. You can’t win. They won’t address your actual comments or questions. Their only purpose is to rant and rave and criticize each of us for our individual beliefs.

I wish I could remember who posted that original definition of a troll.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at June 2, 2006 1:51 PM
Comment #153746

TROLL-sOME ONE WHO DISAGREES WITH THE ANTI-AMERICA MINORITY.Most generally republican,Good looking and has balls of steele.

Posted by: lookingout at June 2, 2006 1:56 PM
Comment #153760

I joined the miliatry (Marines) right out of high school in 77. I was in during the Iranian hostage situation. However, while in both branches (Marines and AF) I was in security forces both here in Europe. My son is in the Marines now serving in IRAQ. As for education. I am a Licensed Practical Nurse…a Registered Nurse…I have a Nursing Home Administrators license…I have a BA…an MPA..and I am working on my PhD in Health Care Policy. I work full time…ALL the time….I teach at the local University as a graduate teaching assistant Monday thru Friday..and I work every weekend..12 hour shifts in a nursing home….and..I am on call at a local hospital!! In short…I am living the American dream!! I love my country…just not those in charge at the moment!! We need truly compassionate people to run this country. The horror stories I see everyday the nursing home industry would make you sick!! WE HAVE GOT TO TURN THIS COUNTRY AROUND BEFORE IT IS TO LATE!!!

Posted by: Tim at June 2, 2006 3:07 PM
Comment #153767

“How we we cope with the departure of such an aweful group of politicians?”

Personally, I’m planning a large Keg party.


“How will the Dems channel all their anger? Will there be a united Democratic Party that has some message besides “We hate Bush”? “

If your not angry at bush, your not paying attention. And we DO have a message, a platform, and a purpose. You COULD actually go read about our positions and quit regurgitating what the right is selling you.


“TROLL-sOME ONE WHO DISAGREES WITH THE ANTI-AMERICA MINORITY”

“Minority”?
www.pollingreport.com
Educate yourself as to who the minority is.

Posted by: norby at June 2, 2006 3:27 PM
Comment #153771

“The truth democrat style George Bush lied about W.M.D. in iraq tell that to those who were gased by saddam.”

Your kidding right? That was over 20 years before we invaded. When he was our ally. Those weapons COULDN’T still be viable, AND were supplied by US.
THIS war was about massive stockpiles that rummy KNEW were there and exactly where they were.
If your gonna post this yahoo level nonsense on this board, your gonna get bitchslapped.
Take it up a notch or go away.

Posted by: norby at June 2, 2006 3:31 PM
Comment #153774

So this nursing home situation is george bushes fault too.Maybe its the people who work at the nursing homes.Maybe all these people with b.a.s and m.b.a.s are not capable of running our nursing homes and maybe those who teach our children are not doing such a great job either.If you see this stuff in nursing homes and dont do anything about it you are just as guilty as those who mistreat these folks.

Posted by: lookingout at June 2, 2006 3:34 PM
Comment #153776

Norby Bitches dont bitchsmack They scream.

Posted by: lookingout at June 2, 2006 3:38 PM
Comment #153777

“SK I own a appliance store and can not keep stock.Isee the parking lots of department stores grocery stores car lots and resturants and they are packed every day.”

Yep, all on borrowed money. Seen the public debt figures lately??

“Our economy is the fastest growing economy in the world!Despite anti-america americans which by the way is the minority.And if you doubt it you should get off your can and go to some of these stores and count cars on their lots.”

Actually, were not even in the top 10.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-fastest-growing-economies-map.html

As for the car business, it’s VERY slow right now, new AND used. I know, that’s what I do.
As for us being the minority, your behind on current events.
www.pollingreport.com

Now, can we get back to real discussion and get rid of the trolls?

Posted by: norby at June 2, 2006 3:39 PM
Comment #153778

“Norby Bitches dont bitchsmack They scream.”

Your points were still all wrong, no matter what insults you hurl at me.
Please, you’d fit in much better over at yahoo. You’ll be on their level.

Posted by: norby at June 2, 2006 3:42 PM
Comment #153780

Lookingout…you are stupid…plain and simple!!! What you need and what I’d like to give you can’t be done over a blog…however..chew on this:

It must be tough being a Republican in 2006, because somehow, you have to believe concurrently that:

1. Jesus loves you, but shares your deep hatred of homosexuals and Hillary Clinton.

2. The United States should get out of the United
Nations, but our highest national priority is
enforcing U. N. resolutions against Iraq.

3.”Standing Tall for America” means firing your
workers and moving their jobs to India.

4. A woman can’t be trusted with decisions about her own body, but multi-national corporations can make decisions affecting all humankind without regulation.

5. Being a drug addict is a moral failing and a crime, unless you’re a conservative radio host. Then it’s an illness and you need our prayers for your recovery.

6. The best way to improve military morale is to
praise the troops in speeches, while slashing
veterans’ benefits and combat pay.

7. Group sex and drug use are degenerate sins, unless you someday run for governor of California as a
Republican.

8. If condoms are kept out of schools,adolescents
won’t have sex.

9. A good way to fight terrorism is to belittle our long-time allies, but then demand their cooperation and money.

10. HMOs and insurance companies make profits and have the interest of the public at heart.

11. Providing health care to all Iraqis is sound
policy. Providing health care to all Americans is
socialism.

12. Global warming and tobacco’s link to cancer are junk science, but creationism should be taught in schools.

13. It is okay that the Bush family’s “Carlisle Group” has done millions of business with the Bin Laden family.

14. Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him and Rumsfeld reassured him he was our buddy. A bad guy when Bush’s daddy made war on him, a good guy when Cheney did business with him. But, then a bad guy again when Bush junior needed a prop for his re-election campaign as the “war president”

15. A president lying about an extramarital affair is an impeachable offense. A president lying about WMD existence, to enlist support for an unprovoked, undeclared war and occupation, in which thousands of soldiers and civilians die, is, somehow, solid “defense” policy in a “War against Terrorism”.

16. Government should limit itself to the powers named in the Constitution, which should include “banning gay marriages and censoring the Internet”.

17. The public has a right to know about Hillary’s cattle trades, but George Bush’s Harken Oil stock trade should be sealed in his Daddy’s library, and is none of our business.

18. What Bill Clinton or John Kerry did in the 1960s was of vital national interest but what Bush did in the ’80s is irrelevant.

19. Trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is communist, but trade with China and Vietnam is vital to a “spirit of international harmony”.

20. Affirmative Action is wrong, but it is OK for your Daddy and his friends (here and in Saudi Arabia) to get you to graduate from Yale without studying much; to dodge the draft in the Texas Air National Guard; to bail out your company Harken Oil and the Texas Rangers; to get the Governorship of Texas and then to have the Supreme Court appoint you President of the USA.

21. You are a conservative, but it is OK to spend like there is no tomorrow and run up deficits that your grandchildren will have to pay,while at the same refunding as much tax money as possible to rich people who do not need it. This illogical behavior can take a toll on a healthy mind. So if a friend of yours has
been acting a bit dazed and confused lately, be nice: he or she may be a Republican!

Posted by: Tim at June 2, 2006 3:48 PM
Comment #153788

The president didn’t make Katrina happen but he didn’t respond .Its amazing that Roosevelts secratary of war was able to respond to the 1906 earthqwake in san fransico within 5 hours with out previos knowledge of a disater like the weather reports we all saw days leading up land fall.Thats wy he is a broke dick president.

Posted by: Christian at June 2, 2006 4:02 PM
Comment #153793

WoW tim thats a mouth full.Give me 21 reasons why you hate this country.

Posted by: lookingout at June 2, 2006 4:13 PM
Comment #153794

Tim and Norby,

Stop feeding the trolls! Do you see any actual response to the content of your message?

This is not a “support group” let the trolls go elsewhere for the “strokes” they need to survive.

KansasDem

PS: He’s pushing the limit towards censorship anyway with this kind of garbage:
“Norby Bitches dont bitchsmack They scream”

Posted by: KansasDem at June 2, 2006 4:14 PM
Comment #153802

AND NORBY IS’NT cOMPUTERS ARE A WONDERFUL THING YOU CAN INSULT A MAN then cry when he returns the favor liberal all the way.

Posted by: lookingout at June 2, 2006 4:29 PM
Comment #153811

“AND NORBY IS’NT cOMPUTERS ARE A WONDERFUL THING YOU CAN INSULT A MAN then cry when he returns the favor liberal all the way.”

I don’t care if you insult me (considering the source), but at least include some ACTUAL CONTENT~! You know, like maybe a counterargument to the post your responding to?
I believe your last post, with CONTENT, that I responded to was your assertion we have the worlds fastest growing economy. (posted 12:02)I provided links to stats that show were not even top 10.
Now, you have a followup? or just more nonsense??

Posted by: norby at June 2, 2006 4:50 PM
Comment #153814

This post has finally degraded itself into obscurity…

Posted by: Cliff at June 2, 2006 4:54 PM
Comment #153822

lookingout, I personally don’t give a rat’s ass how many appliance stores you own. Your store is probably in or near an area of the top one tenth of one percenters. Either that or your stock inventory is now keeping 5 items in stock where you used to carry 20. Don’t give me any crap about not knowing what I’m talking about. I’ve been delivering merchandise to mainly dealerships for 26 years. I drive a route of approx. 100 miles per day. I talk to my customers DAILY! I know the complaints! NOBODY IS HAPPY ABOUT THE ECONOMY! You can take your republican numbers and shove ‘em. I KNOW WHAT I SEE AND HEAR. I don’t make this stuff up. I’m not that good at itl At least, not as good as you guys are.

Posted by: sk at June 2, 2006 5:10 PM
Comment #153834

Norby:


“If your gonna post this yahoo level nonsense on this board, your gonna get bitchslapped.
Take it up a notch or go away. “

This may be one of the most intelligent comments I’ve ever read on this blog. Actually, though, I think our critic needs to take it up about three notches.

Posted by: Tim Crow at June 2, 2006 5:36 PM
Comment #153838

Tim:

“We need truly compassionate people to run this country. “


Bravo!

Posted by: Tim Crow at June 2, 2006 5:38 PM
Comment #153842

Lookingout

“WoW tim thats a mouth full.Give me 21 reasons why you hate this country”.

Having the optimism to believe that America would fare better under a different leader….someone perhaps more truthful than Bush….doesn’t make you an America hater. The 21 things Tim listed here are critisisms of this current administration that the majority of this country (if polls are to be believed) seem to agree are problems. YOU are in the minority and your apparent reluctance to want to see things improve in this country (and I don’t necessarily mean by electing a Democrat) means that you are in fact the one who hates America.

So how does it feel?

JD

Posted by: J.D. at June 2, 2006 5:54 PM
Comment #153865

There are millions of intelligent, open minded people in this nation who are sick and tired of the closeminded Republicans trying to control this great land.
They want to tell us who we can or cannot marry.
They want to dedide the ethics of how we die.
They want to track our phone calls in the pretense of protecting our nation.
The list goes on and on.

We are fed up to our eyeballs with the lies and DENIALS of the BUSH CHENEY REGIME.
Their lust for war …no matter what.
Their constant show of arrogance.
Their failure to show any concern for the everyday working men and women in this country.

We can’t wait til they are GONE.

ANIMOSITY……..oh yes…in spades.

Posted by: Geneseo1971 at June 2, 2006 7:40 PM
Comment #153866

These folks are professional fighters for the enemy and all ways will be.Only history can tell the true heros of any war.And history will say George Bush,Dick cheny,Donald Rumsfeild and condolisa Rice Are true heros and did’nt buckle under to those who know only RUN RUN RUN
Posted by: lookingout at June 2, 2006 11:11 AM

Interesting slant on history. And I always thought that Kerry and Murtha both had distinguished records of military service, both in combat zones and both decorated. I was obviously mistaken aobut Bush skulking in the ANG to avoid service in Vietnam. Cheney didn’t serve in the military at all, and Rummy had a cozy service with no combat, no critism of him for that. But what the hell, they’re heroes anyway, lets give them a pass.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 2, 2006 7:42 PM
Comment #153879

Thanks for comments all. I have been a bit busy putting food on my own table to respond, but the liberal commentors in this thread have answered any real substance from the “Reds.” Thanks for carrying me guys… and gals… I especially enjoyed Tim’s 21 points. lookingout here is a link to a copy of GOP Chat Room rules at: Fact Based Initiatives. It is clear that you already know them but a refresher course in trolling can never hurt. I will try to write a more substantive response later - at to Jack. gergle, I agree Bush isn’t Satan - nincompoop - or precurser baby anti-Christ.

Posted by: Ray Guest at June 2, 2006 8:54 PM
Comment #153910

Is anyone as sick and tired of republicans telling us how great us the unempoyment rate is(thanks to Bush) when most of us are earning the same income we were five years ago(or less) and our cost of living has skyrocketed thanks to rises in health care costs, heating, gasoline, insurance, etc, etc.
The unemployment rate is the phoniest statistic that’s out their.

Posted by: mark at June 2, 2006 10:46 PM
Comment #153939

mark, Jack,

It is true, as mark points out, that the unemployment rate is a poor indicator of anything. It doesn’t count people on welfare. It doesn’t count people who have stopped looking for work. It doesn’t who are under-employed. Jack points out that the economy is growing, but as mark points out, who is it growing for? The spread between the richest and poorest has been growing for a long time. It started under Reagan. It has accelerated under Bush. This is class warfare, and Jack’s favored class is winning. These most recent Republican tax cuts are indicative of that. They are insulting. Four percent of annual gross income for someone who makes a million dollars per year - less than one half of one tenth of one percent of gross annual income for some guy making 20 grand per year and paying $3 per gallon to Bush / Cheney’s best buds. Jack makes the point that the “reds” will win again because of this “great” economy. Well they may win again. I don’t think that we have any kind of lock on it - especially if Hillary runs. I am afraid she is not electable. We have thrown a couple of elections away and they have stolen them. We may throw some more away and they may steal some more. So they may win again, but I don’t think they are going to win on the basis the economy. The economy - such as it is - is headed into another downturn. The Federal Reserve has already said that. So things are tough out here for the average working person and they are about to get tougher. If Jack thinks that the “reds” are going to win on the basis of the economy - I want some of what he is smoking. So Jack, your main brag seems to be that in 2004 Bush was unpopular and still beat the Dems - and that is true - with a little help from Diebold. So, you are bragging that the Dems are so bad that even this worthless dog Bush beat them with a little help from Choice Point. I absolutely agree.

Posted by: Ray Guest at June 3, 2006 1:25 AM
Comment #153990

Ray

The greater difference between rich and poor began in 1972, much before Reagan. It accelerated MOST under Clinton and in fact became less acute under Bush. It is part of globalization, which has made us all richer, but made skills and education more valuable faster.

Bush won in 2004 by a good margin. You guys like to think something unfair happened. You constantly point to the possiblity this happened and enjoy talking about the flaws in the system, but you never come up with any actual cases.

You should stop this. You should know it is not a valid argument and it is damaging to democracy. All the Dems and all their lawyers have been investigating this since Nov 2004. There were probably nearly as many Democratic lawyers in Ohio as voters. They found nothing they could take to court. They found smoke, but no fire.

I know I will now get a bushel of urban legends and innuendo. Someone will quote Conyers. But you could marshal more evidence for the existence of Bigfoot than you can for widespread fraud in Ohio. Elections are statistical. Some people try to cheat (on both sides). When an election is very close, we really don’t know who won. This election was not that close.

Posted by: Jack at June 3, 2006 11:22 AM
Comment #153992

The economy? It is easy to throw one hell of a party when you can write all the bad checks you want. Problem is it is not sustainable. Our children will have to pay for it. The real boom,under Clinton, happened because we were actually making products to sell. The next real boom will be alternative energy. Alas,we are not the world leader in this field because our leadership is a captive of the oil oligarchy,is the oil oligarchy. Because of them the shift from fossile fuels may be as wrenching as the shift from monarchy or the shift from a slave based economy was. We have to do it anyway for survival.

Posted by: BillS at June 3, 2006 11:29 AM
Comment #154004

Jack,

Thanks - criticisms noted - will be considered.

Posted by: Ray Guest at June 3, 2006 12:31 PM
Comment #154017

BBURKE Its very interesting that you rely on a pakistani economist and the united nations for your information.Just another reason why the left is unable to survive in the real world.Your reasoning is just utter bull.

Posted by: lookingout at June 3, 2006 1:02 PM
Comment #154018

Jack:

“But you could marshal more evidence for the existence of Bigfoot than you can for widespread fraud in Ohio”

I think that one of the reasons that the Republicans have to continuously defend the legality of the 2004 elections is because of the egregious way they conducted themselves in 2000. The Straussian viciousness of saving the people from themselves, an “anything goes”, PNAC-style, the-world-is-a-rich-powerful-person’s oyster, is a modus operandi that is becoming harder and harder to hide under a veneer of “compassion”, conservative or otherwise.

There are numerous studies and reports dealing with the suspicious nature of the 2004 elections in Ohio and elsewhere. And time after time after time, ‘mistakes’ oversights, kicking people of voter rolls illegally and other shennanigans favored Bush—simple arithmetic and odds are defied again and again. I won’t even discuss Kenneth Blackwell.


So, to quote a seemingly wise man in another context:

“If you cannot see it, you are blind on purpose.”

Posted by: Tim Crow at June 3, 2006 1:09 PM
Comment #154144

Jack,
“Bush won in 2004 by a good margin”

I’m glad you think so and I hope all Republicans and those on the religious right do also. I hope this leads to overconfidence. My opinion is that he squeeked by and if less than a hundred thousand voters in Ohio had voted differently Bush would not be sitting in the White House( and that is assuming that what happened in Ohio was legit. Would you wait in line ten hours to vote?)
I don’t believe it a valid argument to say that Bush won by a large margin and I can’t say for sure that there was cheating in Ohio or anywhere else. What I do know is that this country is deeply divided and that division is about as even as can be. If Bush had been the “Uniter” that he claimed to be in 2000 he would have won by a large margin. Instead he has divided this country more than I could have ever imagined.

Posted by: mark at June 3, 2006 9:58 PM
Comment #154186

Jack,

I have been considering your criticisms. I have been looking for hard statistics to support my earlier assertions or confirm your assertions. My assertions about the spread between rich and poor were drawn from a foggy memory and could be flawed. I thought that I remembered hearing or reading that information from credible sources. I have not found exactly what I wanted. Time is limited. Here are several links that I believe support some of the general thrust of my earlier comments: MSNBC Associated Press and MSNBC Newsweek. The more general point though is that it simply does not matter weather the rate of change between the richest and poorest has been the greatest under Bush or not. It is clear that Bush has favored the rich and privileged elite. He tacitly acknowledges that much with his own jokes. I think that is misguided. You think it is good.

Posted by: Ray Guest at June 4, 2006 1:22 AM
Comment #154249

lookingout is a troll. do not feed the trolls.

Posted by: troll hunter at June 4, 2006 11:43 AM
Comment #154301

Jack obviously you did not read the link to the article I put up regarding the election in Ohio in 2004. Either that, or you did read it, but take great pleasure in dismissing statistical impossibilities just to be annoying.

Posted by: Adrienne at June 4, 2006 4:35 PM
Comment #154337

It’s obvious, it’s no longer what is best for the country, it is about what can we do to get Bush. It’s a shame, the country is what suffers. America has successfully removed the world’s number one terrorist and all the liberals can do is “whine”.

Will the liberals ever hold their own to task for voting for the war? I doubt it; it would not advance the “get Bush” agenda. Too bad, I guess they will need to live in misery for two more years. What happen with these guys going to Canada? Geez, don’t make us bring out the Clinton laundry list. (sigh) political hacks…

Posted by: Curmudgeon-at-large at June 4, 2006 7:57 PM
Comment #154339

“My assertions about the spread between rich and poor were drawn from a foggy memory and could be flawed.”

Not flawed at all:
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_econindicators_income20050831

“These more aggregate statistics have also been suggestive of increasing inequality, as a larger-than-usual share of national income took the form of non-labor income (e.g., investment income and profits) that tend to accrue to those at the upper end of the wealth scale.”

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at June 4, 2006 8:08 PM
Comment #154350

Thanks KansasDem. That was a good link. Combined with links that I provided for Jack, it provides pretty solid support for the basic points that I made earlier, which Jack was challenging.

Posted by: Ray Guest at June 4, 2006 9:44 PM
Comment #154367

Adrienne,

I found your post to be very interesting. Especially the link you provided about “Was the 2004 Election Stolen?”

I realize that Young Robert has his own agenda, but it appears to be well documented.I truly recommend everyone actually reading it.

Posted by: Linda H. at June 4, 2006 10:56 PM
Comment #154388

Curmudgeon-at-large:


“Will the liberals ever hold their own to task for voting for the war? I doubt it…”

I hold Byden, Clinton, Lieberman and anyone else that continues to support this travesty in Iraq “to task”, and I, unlike some of my voting colleagues, have a very long memeory. I will not support any liberal that continues to support the war. Period.

As for the ones that voted for the war, my feelings are ambivelant. Frankly, I was disgusted that the Democratic Party didn’t distance itself from the failed policy of this administration regarding Iraq in the ‘04 elections. While MSM pundits love to rapsodize about the election being about moral values, there was a morality as well for some on the Left—they refused to support Kerry for his go-along, get-along stance on Iraq. It’s interesting that political pundits interpret his loss as the damage done by the Right. Obviously, that was a big factor—noone asserts that the centerist policies of the Democratic Party regarding the war may have had a share in his defeat.

That he, belatedly, regretted his vote and his stance on the war, while a closing-the-door-after-the-cows-have-gone manuver, I think it was a step that was needed to clear the air. I am not one to rip a politician for a change of heart. A stay-the-course policy can be much more damaging in certain cases than ‘flipflopping’—especially when it comes to war.

While Kerry saw the light too late, IMO, I respected him for admitting to his part in the failed policy.

Posted by: Tim Crow at June 5, 2006 12:40 AM
Comment #154525

Jack, Jack, Jack,

“Unemployment 4.7%. Economy growing at 5.3%.”
— Sorry, inflation is still outpacing economic growth. In fact, the core annual rate of inflation at the consumer end is already above the 2 percent favored by the Federal Reserve, which points to further interest-rate increases.

“Great job market for new grads.”
— If those new grads have a highly specialized field of study, yes. If they have a liberal arts education, no.

“Compare these (economic) numbers to historical or world figures. (Yes 1999 & 2000 seemed better. It is not the best, just very good.)”
— Then why, according to Gallup, do only 4 percent of the public consider the economy “excellent,” while only 25 percent consider it “good?” CEO compensation and business profits have soared, yes, but most workers are worse off now than they were a yearago.

“No terror attacks in the U.S. since 9/11.”
— Please. With virtually no border or port security, can you honestly attribute this feat to George Bush? Isn’t it possible that the bad guys are simply using their patience and intelligence before striking again?

“All measured pollutants down.”
— Where is the proof for this staement? The Bush administration is catching and punishing far fewer polluters than the two previous administrations, according to a Knight Ridder analysis of 15 years of environmental-enforcement records. The magazine Science also reports: “Instead of protecting public health, George Bush rolled back and undermined our most important safeguard from industrial air pollution, the Clean Air Act. Breaking a campaign promise to clean up the oldest, dirtiest coal-fired power plants, the Bush Administration has fought to weaken protections that would require the use of modern pollution control technology and has undercut pending lawsuits against polluters. George Bush’s so- called “Clear Skies” proposal, will result in over 21 million tons more pollution than if he simply enforced the Clean Air Act.”

Posted by: scoreggi at June 5, 2006 3:58 PM
Comment #154583

scoreggi,

Thanks for taking Jack to task on those points. I often start my comments with Jack, Jack, Jack too.

Posted by: Ray Guest at June 5, 2006 7:04 PM
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