Democrats & Liberals Archives

Immigration: More of the same and none of it good

I must say that I hold no hope of good policy regarding immigration at the southern border of the United States. The plans and rhetoric are so predictable they are laughable. The rhetoric is historically consistent.

"Illegal" immigrants are sucking the nation dry; they are criminals, round them up and deport send; lock them up; and an let's not forget a fop to the racist-driven English as a national language legislation that is pending. Of course, it is also predictable in a more contemporary form with utilizing the military for domestic purposes, huge contracts to bloated crony corporations, and "intelligence" - spy planes and biometric identification. It would be laughable if it were not so damaging and hurtful.

It is not surprising that the angry and hostile rhetoric has tipped off a new wave of hate crimes against those who appear "Hispanic." Just what might one expect when big names like Lou Dobbs and Jack Cafferty let fly their anti-immigrant rhetoric. Cafferty was especially offensive during the immigrant rights marches to suggest that we should just call in the military and arrest everyone at the marches and deport them. Yep, they are already congregated - just ship them out. Of course then there are the "Minutemen" with their guns "assisting" in protecting the border, and saying they'll build the fence if the government does not.

The New York Times (5/16/06) summarized the various government proposals. On May 17th, the Senate came to a tentative agreement on their proposals, barely retaining modified guest worker and citizenship path inclusions. However, while the plans are not law, appropriations are being made. Thus far, the Senate has approved "$25 billion in additional spending between 2007 and 2011" (Doyle, 5/19/06). According to Michael Doyle's article in Capitol Hill Blue, some of that $25 billion is comprised of fencing at $3 million a mile, and vehicle barriers at $1.3 million a mile. While there are those who think we should build the "great Wall" of the U.S. (modeled on Israel's wall) across the entire border between the U.S. and Mexico, most realize that would be prohibitively expensive. After all, that border is 1951 miles long At $3 million a mile for fencing (and let's leave out the vehicle barrier costs) the basic fence would run close to $6 billion all on its own.

By now, we shouldn't be too surprised that in an "emergency" the administration turns to the military and to military contractors. Bush did it with Hurricane Katrina by sending in the Guard - and Blackwater - as well as the usual military contractors - including Bechtel and KBR (Halliburton). CNNMoney reported on 5/18/06, that the "Nation's top defense contractors (are) to be asked to manage new high-tech approach to control illegal immigrants along borders."

However, while the immigration issue is being painted as an immediate emergency that has sprung upon us, the Department of Homeland Security began approaching industry for high tech solutions to the border problems earlier this year. The program is called "SBInet" (Southern Border Initiative), and is outlined by Bruce Bigelow as:

"It calls for using computer networks, ground sensors, robotic aircraft, satellite imaging and other technologies to link together the hodgepodge of federal, state and local entities that operate with varying authority along the borders with Mexico and Canada.

The idea is to create a "virtual fence" that can detect border intrusions, enable different agencies to share information, and provide a command-and-control ability to interdict illegal crossings."

Not surprisingly, the big defense contractors are all over this like white on rice:

"... the program has triggered high expectations in the defense industry, said Matthew Farr, a homeland security analyst with consultant Frost & Sullivan in San Antonio. He thinks the umbrella contract is worth many billions of dollars.

"All the big defense contractors have been jumping on board," said Farr. The list includes companies known for their capabilities as systems integrators, including Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Boeing and SAIC, the San Diego contractor also known as Science Applications International Corp." (Bigelow)

Eric Lipton from the New York Times penned "Bush Turns to Big Military Contractors for Border Control," and "Lockheed Martin, Raytheon and Northrop Grumman" are promising to submit their bids within the next two weeks. He notes: "Using some of the same high-priced, high-tech tools these companies have already put to work in Iraq and Afghanistan -- like unmanned aerial vehicles, ground surveillance satellites and motion-detection video equipment -- the military contractors are zeroing in on the rivers, deserts, mountains and settled areas that separate Mexico and Canada from the United States." Why in the world would you develop something new when the Pentagon has already paid you for it? While the deployment of National Guard and military technology are already being directly deployed, the same companies will end up directly deploying that technology for "border control." Of course that means they will need to develop newer and more expensive toys for the DoD. Despite claims that the plan does not "militarize" the border, it does exactly that. The same surveillance, and one presumes "deterrence" technologies, used militarily outside the country, will transfer to border usage - and hence into the hands of not just the federal Border Patrol, but into the hands of police as well. From there it is no great leap to assume that same technology will become the new "tool" of police forces across the country." Slippery slope indeed.

However, it is not just military surveillance and deterrence technology that provides a slippery slope - the other high tech and data harvesting technology is biometric identification. Utilizing documentation that requires biometric identification (the use of personal biological data in identification- finger prints, retinal scans, DNA information) also requires a database to run it through. While one might argue that immigrants from the south would need biometric identification, and that would be logged into an immigrant tracking program, what about those who don't have such "papers?" For example, legal citizens of Hispanic American descent who are either native residents or obtained their visas and citizenship before this "innovation." In other words, the lack of "papers" with biometric data does not necessarily mean that one is illegal. I know that I personally have no proof of citizenship beyond my birth certificate, and I don't carry that around with me. Further, it would likely not be accepted as "proof" as birth certificates are easily fraudulently obtained.

Do we then require everyone who might "appear" Hispanic to get biometrically identified? Since it appears that many people cannot tell someone who is "Hispanic," from someone who is Native American or even African American, or someone who is "Arab," then they too might need to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt who they are and their status in the United States.

So then where do you stop? After all, things could easily "heat up" with Russia or China - or even those pesky French. There is no way to be "safe" unless everyone is biometrically recorded and able to prove it. Oh gosh, they already did that. Remember the REAL ID Act? That legislation required the states to use biometric data for drivers licenses, and included the following information:
(1) The person's full legal name.
(2) The person's date of birth.
(3) The person's gender.
(4) The person's driver's license or identification card number.
(5) A digital photograph of the person.
(6) The person's address of principle residence.
(7) The person's signature.
(8) Physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes.
(9) A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements.

Well that little gem got passed into law through with the passage of the REAL ID Act of 2005, and was part of the was the appropriations act for the Department of Homeland Security for 2006 (Public Law 109-90 Oct. 18, 2005.)

SEC. 538. For grants to States pursuant to section 204(a) of the REAL ID Act of 2005 (Division B of Public Law 109-13), $40,000,000, to remain available until expended: Provided, That of the funds provided under this section, $34,000,000 may not be obligated or allocated for grants until the Committees on Appropriations of the Senate and the House of Representatives receive and approve an implementation plan for the responsibilities of the Department of Homeland Security under the REAL ID Act of 2005 (Division B of Public Law 109-13), including the proposed uses of the grant monies: Provided further, That of the funds provided under this section, not less than $6,000,000 shall be made available within 60 days from the date of enactment of this Act to States for pilot projects on integrating hardware, software, and information management systems.

So we get the historic patterns of scapegoating the immigrants; combined with mobilizing the military domestically (and transferring military technology into public law enforcement); with massive contracts for defense contractors (again), and the implementation of yet another feature of the "defunct" Total Information Awareness program. (Which is why they need a massive underground installation in Colorado to store all this "data" in.) So it is a win-win situation for everyone except the people of the United States and the immigrants who come here - and of course the wildlife that will be trapped on one side of the border or the other by the fence.

Posted by Rowan Wolf at May 21, 2006 10:00 AM
Comments
Comment #149892

There is a simple solution to our immigration problems. I propose that we create an agency that promotes the unification of other countries with us. We can call it JOIN U.S. They will receive all the benefits of being a state in the United States and we will have a larger,more productive country to enjoy. Seriously,why not?

Posted by: jblym at May 21, 2006 11:19 AM
Comment #149894

PAX ROMANA…er…AMERICANA, here we come!

Posted by: RGF at May 21, 2006 11:22 AM
Comment #149900

jblym,

“I propose that we create an agency that promotes the unification of other countries with us. We can call it JOIN U.S. They will receive all the benefits of being a state in the United States and we will have a larger,more productive country to enjoy.”

And, as an added benefit, it will save us the cost in lives and money of an invasion.

Posted by: Rocky at May 21, 2006 12:03 PM
Comment #149902

So what is your solution?

Much of what you say is true … unfortunately, some (on both sides) want to make a race, color, ethnicity, religion, and/or nationality issue of it.

But, it does not diminish the real problems stemming from massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration, which have nothing to do with race, color, ethnicity, nationality, religion, etc.

Mexico, relatively speaking, is not a poor country.
A huge part of the problem is the magnets that lure illegal aliens to the U.S.
Hell, who wouldn’t?
Free food stamps, Medicaid, healthcare, emergency care (E.R.s), education for their children, Social Security, Medicare, no requirement to pay taxes, don’t need auto-insurance, and the capability to vote too, among many other benefits.

Irresponsible government and lazy voters that tolerate it have all allowed this problem to grow out of control, causing:

  • increased crime rates (double the norm; a typical result of massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration);

  • burden on education systems;

  • burden on healthcare systems;

  • burden on hospital systems; 84 hospitals closed/closing in California;

  • burden on welfare systems; 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare;

  • burden on Social Security system;

  • burden on Medicaid system;

  • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

  • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

  • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

  • burden on prison systems; 29% of those in state and federal prisons (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;

  • 2.3 million displaced U.S. citizens receiving unemployment and welfare due to unfair advantage of half of all illegal aliens not paying taxes;

  • voter fraud; burden on voting systems;

  • net losses of $70 to $139 billion per year to U.S. citizens;

The amnesty of 3+ million in 1986 quadrupled into the current 12+ million.
Amnesty or a Guest Worker Plan (a.k.a. Amnesty) will turn that 12+ million into 50+ million. For government to continue to allow this type of chaos and societal disorder (a result of massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration; not merely a result of immigration alone) is extremely irresponsible and will lead to more racism, resentments, jealousy, chaos, and societal disorder.

Our abused public systems (e.g. education, welfare, Medicaid, E.R.s, hospitals, healthcare, law enforcement, Social Security, Medicaid, voting systems, etc.) will deteriorate to the point that they will all become useless. We will finally disprove the common myth held by many bleedin’ hearts, that we can not all live at the expense of everyone else.

The illegal alien problem would not have been so severe if government had not been complicit in the massive inflow. Democrats want votes, and Republicans want cheap labor, so both forced states to accommodate illegal aliens, provide them welfare, automatic citizenship for anchor-babies, etc., etc., etc.

But, even when the majority of voters saw what was happening, and protested, government (as usual) chose to do nothing. Border states declared a “State of Emergency”, and the federal government still refused to do anything.

You are right … the federal government will continue to fail at one of its most basic purposes (defense from invasion). The only ones to profit will be the corporations, as rampant corporatism and corpocrisy grows and grows.

But, voters continue to re-elect the very same irresponsible incubments that continue, year after year, to use and abuse the voters. Voters are too lazy and/or brainwashed into thinking they have to re-elect experienced incumbent politicians. However, the only thing they are getting is more experienced cheaters.

Illegal aliens are not all victims.
Most come here to find better paying jobs, but not all.
With 32% of all illegal aliens receiving welfare, and 29% of all incarcerated being illegal aliens, the American Dream for many appears to be crime and welfare. The increased crime rates (double the norm) are to be expected anytime irresponsible government permits massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration.

Culpability is as follows (1=least to blame, … 6=most to blame):

  • (1) illegal aliens that are simply looking for work and a way to support their family. It is hard to be angry at those illegal aliens; but that does not justify amnesty or cutting to the front of the legal immigration line ;

  • (2) voters, that ignored the problem for 20+ years;

  • (3) illegal aliens that abuse U.S. public benefits (e.g. 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare, Medicaid, Foodstamps, Medicare, Social Security, healthcare, drive about without a driver’s license or auto insurance, and use fake IDs).

  • (4) greedy employers of illegal aliens;

  • (5) irresponsible incumbent politicians that are now attempting to pit U.S. citizens and illegal aliens against each other, and will forget all about this issue immediately after the November elections (as usual).

  • (6) criminal illegal aliens. 29% of all prisoners in our federal, state, and local prisons are illegal aliens. These all represent crimes that should have never happened.

Here is one solution.
But, you are right.
It is hopeless.
It won’t ever happen.
Things will merely continue to deteriorate until the levels of pain and misery are sufficient to lead to change … and as history shows us … the change to come may be worse.

All a result of our own laziness and moral bankruptcy.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 21, 2006 12:16 PM
Comment #149906

I was at a neighborhood party here in Texas, few months ago, and several anglo americans were complaining about the illegal mexicans living here … taking away jobs and maybe being paid under the table (not paying taxes), getting state and federal assistance …. all that juicy political stuff. Then the more affluent anglo guest who did most of the complaining asked the contractor “why are the price of homes skyrocketing so much……it is not fair that the builders continue to enjoy record profits when the costs of homes have not risen as fast?” The guest then went on to close his complaint by saying “if it were not for our cheap labor we would have to pay more for our homes … thankgoodness for that”. How quickly people switch their complaints about immigration when it affects them financially.

Posted by: james at May 21, 2006 12:23 PM
Comment #149912

James,

Yes, that sort of greed and ignorance is at the heart of the overall moral bankruptcy of the U.S.

Especially since the Economics excuse is a total myth, since U.S. citizens are losing a net $70 to $139 billion per year due to the many burdens and problems stemming from massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 21, 2006 12:40 PM
Comment #149919

I am in construction. I work every day with Latino immigrants,many “illegal.” They are good,decent,hardworking people. I for one cannot accept doing what you have too to take care of your family as a crime. There was an article in the local rag from a tax preparer in the Latin nieghborhood here that that said many of his customers were undocumented,paying their taxes like everybody else.
I was on another blog where a woman describing herself as a “progressive enviormentalist” complained that Latinos have too many children and overuse her favorite park. Clearly having babies and picnicing should be grounds for deportation.

Posted by: BillS at May 21, 2006 1:33 PM
Comment #149929

While watching the same lou dobbs and jack on CNN that our poster complains about they were saying the same thing about the “new” laws proposed. We don’t need them.
To solve this problem all we really have to do is ENFORCE the laws we already have on the books. IE. go after the empoyers. If you take the jobs away they won’t come. No work oprotunities for illegials and the problem is solved. If we need a new law it should be to fine companies for a first offence. Fine at $1mill per illegial the second offence, and for the 3rd+ offence at $150mil. that would end the problem. Make hiring illegials so portentially expensive that it will not be done and if it is they go bankrupt. Oh and hold the owners personally responsible for the fine even if the company can’t pay it all.

Posted by: timesend at May 21, 2006 2:48 PM
Comment #149933
I for one cannot accept doing what you have too to take care of your family as a crime.

So, it would be okay for poor people (citizens or non-citizens) to rob to help their families? Steal, cheat, defraud the welfare or other help systems?

Posted by: womanmarine at May 21, 2006 3:16 PM
Comment #149935

timesend
“…and the problem is solved.” As with most in this national debate you have missed the problem altogether. The problem is not that so many have to come here for jobs. The problem is why they have to come here for jobs. There are many factors. One is the youn and rapiply increaseing population of Latin America. Another is the oligarchic nature of many governments there. Mexico in particular has good ports,natural resources a hardworking people etc. Why isn’t it a wealthy country?
If all the undocumented immigrants left tommorrow,even overlooking the economic chaos that would create here,without the pressure relief on the Mexican system and the remittance provided by expat workers the Mexican government would collapse and decend into civil war and anarchy. If you think we have an immigration problem now just consider millions of war refugees. It would be unstoppable. What would you do to get your family out of a war zone?

Posted by: BillS at May 21, 2006 3:25 PM
Comment #149947

Rowan, you utterly and completely missread the dialogue in America regarding immigration. You fail in segregating legal immigration which almost all Americans support, and illegal immigration which symbolizes a complete lack of real homeland security, and a substantial part of which does harm our nation and its citizens.

This is a complicated subject and you should, I think, respect its complexity and accurately report the components which make it complex, instead of pulling a Republican one size fits all kind of statement like that about Lou Dobbs for example, who absolutely supports legal immigration.

Posted by: David R. Remer at May 21, 2006 4:15 PM
Comment #149950

I keep posting this, but I think it’s important to note that Tony Snow, Bush’s Press Secretary, believes that Republicans who think immigrants are costing the US money just don’t have any common sense.

But then you don’t see common sense from Republicans today. They want to build a wall without even considering other solutions or how much it will cost. They want to deport all illegals, irregardless of the time and money it would take (it’s basically impossible). I’m getting a little tired of having to listen to one hare-brained scheme that would break this country after another after another after another. The Republicans of yesteryears would have demanded this problem be fixed AND be fixed cost-effectively.

These days Republicans might as well be demanding all immigrants be sent to the moon no ifs ands or buts. Our president is coward, cowed by his base, unable to tell you common sense truths about what’s best for this country.

Posted by: Max at May 21, 2006 5:07 PM
Comment #149951

If we continue to ignore this problem it will only fester here in this Country. The problem is a Mexico,South and Central America problem by and large. If it will require civil war and anarchy to solve the problem why should we postpone the solution.
To continue to have children that you are unable to feed due to the desperate conditions you are in should cause you to ask yourself a question such as why am I continuing to have children at this point in my life. Perhaps we should look at sending aid in the form of birth control to these Countries. I realize this is a long term solution but its tough to empathize with people when they continue to create the problem themselves.
I hope that between the liberals, the moderates the independants and the conservatives we can work out a reasonable short term solution to this problem, because if we cant compromise on this it will continue to over run our already taxed treasury.

Posted by: j2t2 at May 21, 2006 5:08 PM
Comment #149955

Max what would you consider common sense to be.
If we forego a fence what will stop future illegals from entering the country at will? I realize a fence would only slow them down but that is a start.
If we allow the illegals to stay it just sends a message for others to come, and by the way dont bother trying to do it legally its a waste of time just come on in. I think most people would say we would not be able to catch and send all illegals home but once we start doing this on an escalated basis it would send the message to those in this country to get legal or get gone.

Common sense would tell me that if we continue as is it will cost us more in the future, as that is really what we are doing is borrowing from the future by ignoring this problem now.

Posted by: j2t2 at May 21, 2006 5:24 PM
Comment #149963

j2t2,
You are right. The resentments, hatred, racism, and tensions will grow. Corrupt, bloated, arrogant government is pitting its citizens against illegal aliens. Already, crime by illegal aliens is double the norm. Many things are growing worse. It is a pressure cooker. And we keep voting for the very same irresponsible incumbents that do this to us ?

BillS,
Doing nothing is not a good option, even if it is the most likely outcome, see how worthless our own bloated, do-nothing, irresponsible incumbent politicians are.

So, would you stop cutting your fingernails, just because they keep growing ?
What is the solution?

Would you allow illegal aliens to keep pouring into the U.S. ?
Would you allow illegal aliens to keep stealing from U.S. tax payers (net losses of $70 billion per year)?
Should we just succumb to the invasion ?

Why?
There are practical solutions.

Illegal aliens should not be able to cut to the front of the legal immigration line. Amnesty or a Guest Worker Program (a.k.a. Amnesty) will be a repeat of the 1986 Amnesty, in which 3+ million illegal aliens quadrupled. Do you want to see 12+ million illegal aliens quadruple (or more) again? That sort of massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration is already causing rising crime rates (double the norm).

Eliminate the magnets that lure illegal aliens here and secure the border, and that will stop the inflow, and most will leave. And we can help that process by providing pre-paid transportation and $500 per illegal alien.

Of course, that is a pipe dream.
No reform will happen.
Watch 12+ million turn into $50 million.

Then watch each of the following abused systems fail (especially if you give them amnesty):

  • Welfare,

  • Medicaid,

  • Social Security,

  • Medicare,

  • Healthcare, E.R., CDC,

  • Law Enforcement, Prisons,

  • Voting, etc.

The reason nothing will happen is because the government is not serious about immigration reform. 6000 National Guard (even if allowed to interdict) is a joke since 6500 illegal aliens cross the borders of Arizona (alone) daily.

Republicans and Democrats want votes and an under-paid/under-class to exploit.

And voters keep re-electing the very same incumbents, and then wonder why nothing changes.

We do not need to import poverty, crime and disease …

  • One person murdered every 6.7 hours by and illegal alien is not helping our economy.

  • Illegal aliens are costing U.S. tax payers $70 to $139 billion per year.

  • Tens of thousands of Ameriacans, contracting once-eradicated diseases, is not helping our economy.

  • 29% of all incarcerated being illegal aliens is not helping our U.S. economy.

  • 32% of all illegal aliens receiving welfare is not helping our U.S. economy.

  • Allowing illegal aliens to steal from us, and send billions back to there homelands, is not helping our U.S. economy.

  • Allowing illegal aliens to run across the border and give birth to new U.S. citizen anchor-babies (2000 per year in one city, Laredo, TX.), allowing the parents and family to get blue passports, and welfare, is not helping our U.S. economy.

  • Allowing half of all illegal aliens to avoid taxation is not helping our U.S. economy.

  • Allowing half of all illegal aliens to avoid paying taxes is an unfair advantage that displaces an estimated 2.3 million American workers.

  • Allowing illegal aliens to overflow our E.R.s and hospitals has cause 84 hospital closures in California alone, which is not helping our U.S. economy.

  • Alowing illegal aliens to commit crimes, and return over and over, after being deported over and over, is not helping our U.S. economy.

  • Allowing illegal aliens to vote in our elections is not helping our U.S. economy.

  • Allowing illegal aliens to is not helping our U.S. economy.

  • Allowing illegal aliens to over-run our schools and demand bilingual education is not helping our U.S. economy (especially since illegal aliens do not contribute much in the way of property taxes that fund public education), and it contributes to the rising price and falling quality of public education.

  • Most illegal aliens are not highly educated, and don’t make a lot, nor pay a lot of taxes (if any), which is not helping our U.S. economy.

  • Stealing from U.S. tax payers, and giving it to illegal aliens is not helping our U.S. economy.

If you think there is a problem now, wait to see what it is like 10 or 20 years from now. Your federal government is behind it. Most Americans want the problem addressed, but politicians don’t. Politicians only pay it lip service, and as with everything else, there will be no reforms.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 21, 2006 6:01 PM
Comment #149966

This is going around the email circuits….I just received it today, although it’s obviously a few days old. I’m not purporting the legitimacy, but am sure it could be verified or denied. If it is legitimate, then it is pretty telling….

Date: 05/12/06 09:35:20
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:,
Subject: The Illegal Alien March Was A Success!




>Subject: The Illegal Alien March Was A Success! >>
>>
>> Hey guys, I thought you’d be interested in some of these facts I got at
>> the Sheriff’s website today. It appears that the illegal immigration
>> march in Los Angeles was a success! According to data from the Los
>> Angeles County Sheriff, Los Angeles had a reduction in the following:
>>
>> 82% reduction - auto theft
>> 28% reduction - murders/violent crimes/rapes
>> 73% reduction - vandalism/tagging
>> 54% reduction - drug related offenses (not including the area surrounding
>> the march)
>> 31% reduction - domestic violence cases
>> 64% reduction - misdemeanor cases (shoplifting, etc.)
>>
>> CHP reported that today was a record low in the least amount of traffic
>> accidents on Southern California freeways.
>>
>> Looks like the illegal immigration rally was well worth it. Maybe you
>> can do it again sometime. It sure saved the State of California a chunk
>> of money!
>>
>

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at May 21, 2006 6:11 PM
Comment #149976

Max & Rowan…

Please give us your idea(s) on how to solve this, OR is the status quo good enough for you?

I await your reply…

Posted by: Cliff at May 21, 2006 7:28 PM
Comment #149978

Rowan,

This was a good article. It gives us much to think about. I agree with much of it, although retaining English as a primary language simplifies education and commerce and should be encouraged or perhaps required of new citizens. The “Reds” make a big deal out of the immigrants being illegal and having broken the law and that we simply cannot sanction law breakers in our country and give amnesty. All they did was to commit a minor misdemeanor for the purpose of getting a job and feeding their family. It figures that Bush would use this to push a nefarious agenda, undermine the constitution of the U.S., and create a boondoggle for the rich.

Posted by: Ray Guest at May 21, 2006 7:48 PM
Comment #149980
So, it would be okay for poor people (citizens or non-citizens) to rob to help their families?

Ever watched “Les Misearables”??? You bet if you’re being starved and no one will help you that it’s right to steal to feed your family…especially since the ones who won’t help you are the ones paying you starvation wages…and getting rich off your labor.

Posted by: Lynne at May 21, 2006 7:52 PM
Comment #149981

d.a.n.

If I am not greatly mistaken, crime rates have been falling like a stone, across the board for decades. Scientific American says that falling crime rates have more to do with demographics, than police enforcement, prisons, or laws by the way. Now it is true that undocumented immigrants are likely to be young men and or have younger families than the national average and youth is wasted on the young. They are more prone to criminal behaviour - because of the demographics of their age primarily.

Nobody is seriously talking about getting rid of them. The “Reds” just want to keep them illegal so that they can economically rape them and exploit them.

Three million became 12 million, so you assume that there is 48 million waiting in line to come. Invasion? Powerful rhetoric, not really accurate. Undocumented aliens should not move to the front of the citizenship line, but neither should they be forever barred from citizenship.

Posted by: Ray Guest at May 21, 2006 8:05 PM
Comment #149993

Ray Guest,

You are right and you are wrong.

You are right that crime rates overall (nationwide) were falling.

But not crime rates for illegal aliens.

Homicide rates alone are double the norm.
95% of all homicide arrest warrants in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
29% of all incarcerated are illegal aliens.

32% of all illegal aliens receive welfare, Medicaid, food stamps (fraudulently).
Some receive Social Security and Medicare fraudulently.

Ray Guest wrote: Three million became 12 million, so you assume that there is 48 million waiting in line to come. Invasion? Powerful rhetoric, not really accurate.
Not rhetoric. Facts. 48 million is a very conservative estimate based on a linear projection (3 times 4 = 12 ; and 12 times 4 = 48). Mexico has a impoverished population of about 118 million. It will grow larger in the next 20 years. Since 1986, 3 million quadrupled to 12 million. Therefore, 48 million is a very reasonable (linear) estimate. A third of Arizona’s population growth of 500,000 in the last 5 years are illegal aliens. The numbers are even larger in for California.

If you don’t believe that the number of 48 million is justified based on the current rate of growth, see this SENATE bill that would attempt to allow over 100 million new immigrants in the next 20 years.

The poverty rate for immigrants and their U.S.-born children (under 18) is 18.4% , which is 57% higher than the norm of 11.7% for U.S. citizens.

A central question for immigration policy is:
Should we allow in so many people with so little education, which increases job competition for the poorest American workers and the size of the population needing government assistance?
That’s what we are doing. We are importing poverty, crime, and disease.
It is costing U.S. citizens over $70 billion per year. That is also a conservative estimate, because some place it as high as $139 billion per year.

Some studies place it much higher (e.g. 120 million in 20 years).
But 120 million would require an exponential growth rate, which, while typical of population growth, is too much of a leap. 48 million based on the current linear rate of growth is quite reasonable (if nothing is done to stop it), and also when you consider overall population growth in general. Since 1970, the U.S. population grew from 200 million to 299 million. The fastest growing group are illegal aliens from Mexico, but those are only half of all illegal aliens.

The Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) report (dated Dec-2005) reports that there were more illegal aliens in the last five years than all U.S. history (2.5 times greater than the previous record in 1910). There are millions of other immigrants that became so by a method that is older than the borders themselves. Illegal aliens run across the borders just in time to give birth to their new anchor-babies, giving the parents and family Blue Passports. 2000 per year in 2005 in just one city (Laredo, TX). Multiply that times all the border cities in the U.S. The cost to the U.S. citizens is about $5000 per birth.

The “Reds” just want to keep them illegal so that they can economically rape them and exploit them.
Agreed. Republicans want cheap labor, and Democrats want votes. And illegal aliens will continue to flood across the borders by the millions. That is why nothing will change. Voters are screwed … but they deserve it since they keep re-electing the very same irresponsible incumbent politicians.

Keep making excuses for illegal aliens, and irresponsible, bought-and-paid-for, FOR-SALE incumbent politicians will be more than happy to oblige (at your expense). But, perhaps that is OK with you? Perhaps some illegal aliens can come stay with you, uninvited ? Come to your home and make themselves at home? Stay awhile? Perhaps invite a few friends?

We can’t make the pie bigger. Importing poverty and forcing the cost onto U.S. Citizens is a recipe for disaster, as irresponsible incumbent politicians pit U.S. citizens and illegal aliens against each other. And as the number of illegal aliens voting in our elections increases, the harder it will become to ever oust those irresponsible incumbent politicians. Politicians know this.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 21, 2006 9:19 PM
Comment #149994

Sandra
Without verification that e-mail is little more than hate speech how ever I understand that a small reduction in crime is reported in LA during every large demonstration. Seems the police are too busy to report it. Tyson Foods as well as large and small companies ,includeing the one I work for,gave their employees the option of a day off to attend. I doubt if Tyson’s workers usually spend their work days stealing cars and tagging so could not get too it on their day off. I should add that giving a large group of poor people a sense of purpose seems also likely to effect their behavior positively.

d.a.n.

Your analogy about fingernails is not particularly apt but to pursue it I would not cut my fingers off either.
Your view that not much will be done is correct. There will be a show until the elections are over.Race baiting and fear mongering are old tactics.I am sure there are lots of defense companies that will make a ton but the effect will be minimal. I will have to disagree with you as to the reason though. There is not really much that can be done. It is demograpics. Stopping the flow or even slowing it much are simply not within the provence of law or enforcement any more than passing a law against the tide rising or tree pollen blowing in the wind.That is short of things like mine fields,kill zones. summary executions,the sinking of civilian shipping etc. These are acts of war and we are not at war with mexico.
That being said,I am loathe to respond to you as you are very,very good at coming up with what I have come to regard as hysterical,selective and specious statistics to prove whatever preconcieved opinion you might have on any subject.I hope I get this right as you will no doubt check. Wasn’t it Mark Twain that said,”There are lies,damned lies and statistics.”
Instead I will try to reach you with personal experience. I am a heavy construction carpenter,bridges,skyscrapers etc,in Northern California. I work with Latinos every day,many I know are not here legally. They have won my respect and the respect of the people I work for. We are talking roughneck,hard hat construction workers and superintendants not known for being bleeding heart liberals. They earned this respect by working hard and learning quick. I only work for union companies so trying to dismiss this by assuming they work for less so companies like them is irrelavent,they don’t work for lesson my jobs. Also if you get them in an apprentice program they bust ass until they get their journeyman papers. Tell you the truth ,even with the language problems that sometimes come up they are a better caliber worker than most of the nipple pierced drug smoking white kids that try and get into the building trade. In short ,maybe it is not such a bad thing to have them here.
There are solutions and it would be fun to talk about them but I am out of time for now.Suffice it to say there is no quick solution and the solutions lay in Mexico and Latin America,not here.
Regards BillS

Posted by: BillS at May 21, 2006 9:26 PM
Comment #149997

Cliff,
Regarding solutions … I wrote an article on this in April titled Immigration Is More Than A Debate (not posted on WatchBlog). You can read that, but it could be partially summed up.

Immigration has push and pull factors. If one wishes to decrease immigration - documented or undocumented, then those factors need to be addressed. Immigration from south of the border is largely being driven by hemispheric and globalization economics that have made it virtually impossible for million of people to survive and support their families. Much of that economic undercutting has benefited the U.S. So one way to 1) decrease our exploitation of the south, and 2) assist in stabilizing those economies. That is the “push” side of the equation.

The “pull” side of the equation is the economic opportunity that is provided by the demand by agriculture and businesses for a cheap and exploitable labor force. Undocumented workers are an ideal source. Enforcing the legislation already in place to penalize employers would help, but most likely needs to be significantly strengthened. Raising and enforcing minimum wage would also be helpful. This would significantly curtail the pull factors.

You know that the government is winking at this problem when the Naval base reconstruction from Hurricane Katrina was widely using undocumented workers.

Increasing punishments, or making walls, or militarizing the border, or biometric visas are unlikely to be effective. Many (if not most) of the people inappropriately entering the country are desperate. Their families are starving. They will make attempt after attempt even though they risk death in the process.

This is a human issue. It is one where the US (and US consumers) benefit economically. Reducing the exploitation of “Latin” labor will also “cost” us. Somehow I doubt that it will cost us more than the blank check that border security is likely to become. Certainly what is “saved” in social services and education costs will not pay *nor be directed towards paying) for the new “security. Also, the massive amounts of taxes and unclaimed social security and Medicare benefits will also evaporate.

The funding problems in education and social services are not because of the “drain” of undocumented workers and their children. It is because of cutting the budget for that spending.

Posted by: Rowan Wolf at May 21, 2006 9:35 PM
Comment #150002
BillS wrote: I am loathe to respond to you as you are very, very good at coming up with what I have come to regard as hysterical, selective and specious statistics to prove whatever preconcieved opinion you might have on any subject … . , “There are lies, damned lies and statistics.”

Why thank you, BillS.
However, it is just the facts, BillS.
I don’t throw around facts lightly.
Especially on this emotional subject, which far too many already want to make a race, color, religion, xenophobia, nationality, and/or ethnicity issue out of it.
Don’t you think others would pounce on those facts if they were lies ?

If the facts are wrong, prove it.
I provided sources from the GAO, CIS, Washington Times, State of California, Arizona, and many other states, Federation for American Immigration Reform, Journal of American Physicians and Surgeon, MichNews.com, U.S. Customs and Border Patrol, Urban Institute, WashingtonDispatch.com, Carrying Capacity Network, Council of Hemispheric Affairs, etc.

And you have provided none.

So, are you saying that all of those reports, investigations, studies, experts, and editorials are lying?

Posted by: d.a.n at May 21, 2006 10:12 PM
Comment #150006
It is one where the US (and US consumers) benefit economically.

That is not substantiated by the GAO, CIS, many state governments, and dozens of studies and reports. The cost of illegal aliens is a net loss of over $70 billion per year, and that is a very conservative estimate. Even by the most conservative estimates, the losses exceed $45 billion.

I agree that it is a human issue, and it is not proper to treat them all like felons. But, they should not get to cut to the front of the legal immigration line. Even if Amnesty or a Guest Worker Program (a.k.a. Amnesty) is provided, they will continue to flood into the U.S. by the millions, unless the borders are secured, or all the magnets are eliminated.

But, as stated before, nothing will happen.
Irresponsible incumbent politicians want votes and cheap labor, illegal aliens want jobs and benefits (paid for by U.S. citizens), and tax payers get screwed as usual. But, tax payers deserve it, since they keep re-electing the very same irresponsible incumbents that keep doing the opposite of what the voters want, proving that is actually is a government Of / By / For the people (legal or illegal).

Posted by: d.a.n at May 21, 2006 10:27 PM
Comment #150020

d.a.n.
You misunderstand. How much do consumers in the U.S. save from all the things that are produced in the “Free Trade Zone” factories of IBM and Wal-Mart, and Bill Bass, and Old Navy … in South America? How much do U.S. consumers benefit from the maliquadoras of Mexico? How much do U,S, consumers benefit from the even more poorly paid agricultural workers on the coffee plantations and banana plantations, and sugar cane fields of South America? How much do US consumers benefit from the decreased cost of goods and services (including homes) in the US from the exploitation of “illegal” immigrants? How many homeowners have benefited from the 1/2 price Hispanic roofing crew? Or perhaps the landscaping crew?

I’m not talking about taxes here. I’m talking about companies like Levi’s who left the country for cut-rate labor to be “cost competitive” with other clothing manufacturers. So we save $10 on a pair of pants, and $7 on a shirt, and $5,000 on a roof and $30,000 on a new house. Those are the economic benefits I am talking about. And no, I do not have a dollar figure on that, but my guess it is that it far exceeds the costs you list.

Now on the other side of that, we also have the jobs lost in the U.S. and the costs of that have been horrendous as well. Production and manufacturing jobs lost to “cheaper” production costs. And those jobs were not low wage jobs by and large. They were living wage jobs … here. But they aren’t living wage in Guatemala, or Mexico. Ironically, the same forces created those losses here as created the disaster of many people’s lives there, and now “they” are here trying to feed and clothe their families.

Posted by: Rowan Wolf at May 22, 2006 12:07 AM
Comment #150021

d.a.n.
The point of that quotation is that the selective use of statistics can prove any point. I hope you read the rest of my reply and at least gave it some consideration. It is a FACT that I go to work every day with immigrats,many of them without papers. They are good hands and men of respect. I do not have stats but the construction industry in California would be in shambles without them. Things would get built of course but not very quickly and time is money in my business.
I have long said we should cut a deal with Mexico where we take a boat load of hardworking immigrants for every Ken Lay or Keating they take off our hands. You might want to throw in a few corrupt politicians into the deal. We would be far better off. We would probably have to sweeten the pot with a few billion dollars,the Mexicans are not stupid, but we would still be ahead.Hmmm,maybe we would take two boatloads to get rid of Paris Hilton.

Posted by: BillS at May 22, 2006 12:12 AM
Comment #150025


Rowan: Companies move overseas, reduce their production costs and provide savings for the American consumers. I would say you are right, but only for budget items such as are sold at walmart. I think that we need someone who is good at finding this kind of information should help us out. One company you mentioned was Levis. They moved their production overseas to reduce their production costs. I will bet that the price of a pair of Levis jeans never dropped 1 cent because of this. I would to know how much it costs to produce a 125 dollar pair of Nikes.

Posted by: jlwilliams at May 22, 2006 1:00 AM
Comment #150028


BillS: Be careful man, you go around bad mouthing Paris Hilton and they will accuse you of class envy. You can’t go on about how useless wealthy people are useless without being accused of class envy or even class warfare. Ask any red and he/she will set you straight, it is the workers and the poor that are the useless lazy good for nothings. That’s why we need many millions of illegal immigrants.

Posted by: jlw at May 22, 2006 1:15 AM
Comment #150030
Rowan Wolf wrote: d.a.n You misunderstand. How much do consumers in the U.S. save from all the things that are produced in the “Free Trade Zone” factories of IBM and Wal-Mart, and Bill Bass, and Old Navy … in South America?

You forgot China. Workers average 35 cents per hour. There is no doubt that such corporations are using people. The government is complicit. And voters keep re-electing those very same irresponsible incumbents that pave the way for Walmart, Halliburton, corpocrisy, corporatism, etc.

In the U.S., Walmart was fined for employing illegal aliens, but the fine was a joke. Walmart would prefer to pay the fine any day and continue to employ illegal aliens. The fine was for looks only. It did not stop Walmar from doing it.

However, global corporations operate all over the world, what they are doing in foreign nations is beyond our control. We can not control corporations in those nations. We can’t even control them in our own nation. That is largely because of corrupt government and ignorant voters that empower them, and keep re-electing them.

So what is your solution ?
____________________________________

BillS wrote: I do not have stats but the construction industry in California would be in shambles without them.
Not likely. If you add up all of the net gains and net losses from the burdens on our numerous systems.
I hope you read the rest of my reply and at least gave it some consideration
. Yes, I read all of it.

As for Ken Lay (ENRON) and his other crooked buddies (CEOs, CFO, Presidents, VPs, etc.)
Bernard Ebbers (WorldCOM)
David Myers (WorldCOM)
Dennis Kozlowski (Tyco)
Mark H. Swartz (Tyco)
John Rigas (Aldelphia)
Timothy Rigas (Aldelphia)
Scott Sullivan (WorldCOM)
Burford Yates (WolrdCOM)
Jeff Skilling (ENRON)
Andrew Fastow (ENRON)
Lea Fastow (ENRON)
Samuel D. Waksal (ImClone Systems)
David Duncan (Arthur Andersen)
E. Kirk Shelton (Cendant)
Ben Glisan Jr. (ENRON)
Dan Boyle (ENRON)
Weston Smith (HealthSouth)
Aaron Beam (HealthSouth)

those crooks should all get the maximum sentences allowed by law. They should be put to work paying restitution, even if it takes the rest of their life. Perhaps a space at the tent prisons in Arizona? But, watch many of them go scott free. Our legal system is a joke. Especially since the President can pardon felons, like the 140 felons that Clinton pardoned, some who even pled guilty, such as Dan Rostenkowski. They are above the law.

And while Paris Hilton is an idiot, she does not alarm me nearly as much as the Americans that like (their right of course) to watch her stupid television shows.

d.a.n. The point of that quotation is that the selective use of statistics can prove any point.
So, are you claiming that the sources from the GAO, CIS, Washington Times, State of California, Arizona, and many other states, Federation for American Immigration Reform, Journal of American Physicians and Surgeon, MichNews.com, U.S. Customs and Border Patrol, WashingtonDispatch.com, Carrying Capacity Network, Council of Hemispheric Affairs, etc., are all wrong or lies ? Posted by: d.a.n at May 22, 2006 1:31 AM
Comment #150038

well, I guess wall-mart milked that udder dry in south korea, they just agreed to sell there south korean retail business, for $882 million. and btw, they also just reported a first quarter, profit increase of 6.3% over last year.blue jeans? i would not by a pair from wall-mart,there junk! like everything they sell there,talk about public rape, what was there battle cry ten years ago? only made in america!and all those little american flags. i buy my levis blue jeans ,at mervyn’s. on sale for half off, less than wall-marts cheap ass brand. why pay full price? things go on sale, just read the paper!

Posted by: Rodney Brown at May 22, 2006 2:28 AM
Comment #150050

And now for something completely different:

The Frito Bandito and Willy Wonka discuss Willy’s election victory and plans to have a new Brownie Tsar preside over the other brown people with an unidentified brown nose.

Posted by: gergle at May 22, 2006 4:23 AM
Comment #150082

(This is a side note)

In case anyone was wondering if DEMs could get as corrupt as any REP - this article on CNN.

“Affidavit: $90,000 found in congressman’s freezer”
DEM representative from Louisiana, Jefferson

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/21/jefferson.search/index.html

THROW THE BASTARD OUT! NOW!!!!

Posted by: tony at May 22, 2006 9:09 AM
Comment #150087

We can eliminate both our oil crises and immigration if all americans would hire illegal mexicans to push their cars…they will work for much less than a gallon of gas..just a thought

Posted by: mary at May 22, 2006 9:30 AM
Comment #150089

d.a.n.

However, global corporations operate all over the world, what they are doing in foreign nations is beyond our control. We can not control corporations in those nations. We can’t even control them in our own nation. That is largely because of corrupt government and ignorant voters that empower them, and keep re-electing them.

So what is your solution ?

I think you answered the question yourself. The trend in international trade agreements (GATT, NAFTA and the like) have been to shift power from governments to corporations. I agree that government corruption and collusion have fueled this process. Therefore the people need to take back the power - and hold elected officials accountable or kick them out.

However, it is also necessary to recognize who is benefiting from this and it is not just transnationals corporations. We are consuming a quarter of the world’s resources (and the labor that goes with it). In doing so we not only enrich the few, we exploit the many - including participating in our own exploitation.

Saying that the exploitation of globalization is out of our hands, tacitly acknowledges that we are economically benefiting. That is my point in the immigration issues.

Posted by: Rowan Wolf at May 22, 2006 9:34 AM
Comment #150106
Therefore the people need to take back the power - and hold elected officials accountable or kick them out.
Agreed!
However, it is also necessary to recognize who is benefiting from this and it is not just transnationals corporations. We are consuming a quarter of the world’s resources (and the labor that goes with it). In doing so we not only enrich the few, we exploit the many - including participating in our own exploitation.
Yes (because we keep re-electing the very same corrupt politicians that use and abuse us, but No to the amount that it benefits the averarge American, who is also being exploited, as evidenced by:
  • the growing g a p for the richest 1% of the population, and the remaining 99% of the population;
  • the falling median wage for the last six years;
  • outsourcing; the race to the bottom; jobs lost ; most new jobs in the last 6 years were created within our already severely bloated government; not the private sector;
  • rampant abuse of eminent domain to plunder U.S. citizens property;
  • corporations are experiencing record profits while Americans’ median wages have been falling for 6 consecutive years; not all the profits are going to U.S. citizens; most Americans do not own these global corporations … only a few in the upper 1% of the U.S. population are profitting mostly;
  • worsening economic conditions, printing too much money, inflation, $8.4 trillion National Debt, the Social Security ponzi-scheme $12.8 trillion in the hole, Medicare forecast to run deficits in the trillions for decades;
  • and tax payers being pitted against illegal aliens , with net losses to U.S. citizens of over $70 billion per year.
Saying that the exploitation of globalization is out of our hands, tacitly acknowledges that we are economically benefiting. That is my point in the immigration issues.

I will agree in part. Americans are complicit too, if they (due to laziness, complacency, apathy, ignorance, brainwashing, fondness of wallowing in petty partisan warfare, etc.) continue to empower and re-elect the very same corrupt incumbent politicians that keep using and abusing everyone.

But, I’m still not giving will to give a free pass to any group of cheaters.
Illegal aliens are cheating U.S. citizens too. U.S. citizens are just too ignorant and/or lazy to do anything about it. Most U.S. citizens want the massive inflow of illegal aliens stopped, but they keep re-electing the corrupt, bought-and-paid-for incumbent politicians that allow it.

The order of culpability is as follows (1=least to blame, … 6=most to blame):

  • (1) illegal aliens that are simply looking for work and a way to support their family. It is hard to be angry at those illegal aliens; but that does not justify amnesty or cutting to the front of the legal immigration line ;

  • (2) voters, that ignored the problem for 20+ years;

  • (3) illegal aliens that abuse U.S. public benefits (e.g. 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare, Medicaid, Foodstamps, Medicare, Social Security, healthcare, drive about without a driver’s license or auto insurance, and use fake IDs).

  • (4) greedy employers of illegal aliens;

  • (5) irresponsible incumbent politicians that are now attempting to pit U.S. citizens and illegal aliens against each other, and will forget all about this issue immediately after the November elections (as usual).

  • (6) criminal illegal aliens. 29% of all prisoners in our federal, state, and local prisons are illegal aliens. These all represent crimes that should have never happened.

The problem is mostly laziness (leading to ignorance), because if Americans truly understood the problem, they would stop re-electing irresponsible incumbent politicians. The truth should be starting to become quite clear. If Americans don’t start doing the one simple, common sense, responsible thing they were supposed to be doing all along: vote out irresponsible incumbent politicians, always … then Americans get what they deserve, they should be overrun. Seriously, perhaps illegal aliens will run the nation better ?
_____________________________

tony wrote:
In case anyone was wondering if DEMs could get as corrupt as any REP - this article on CNN. “Affidavit: $90,000 found in congressman’s freezer”
DEM representative from Louisiana, Representitive William Jefferson (D)
THROW THE BASTARD OUT! NOW!!!!

Interesting. The FBI found the money in his freezer ?
William Jefferson is angry because someone leaked the story, and is saying he has done nothing wrong? He was already seen receiving the money from another person. He may not get a presidential pardon, since he’s a Democrat (another reason the “Out Party” is usually a little less corrupt than the “In Party”).

The corruption is rampant (both Republicans and Democrats; i.e. all parties).
The “In-Party” is usually a little more corrupt by virtue of the power of their majority, but most (if not all) are corrupt, bought-and-paid-for, do-nothing, FOR-SALE, and look-the-other-way. That is why our pressing problems continue to grow in number and severity. Americans had better wake up soon, before there is nothing worth saving; before it is too late to avoid the inevitable pain and misery resulting from the weight of our own moral and fiscal bankruptcy.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 22, 2006 10:25 AM
Comment #150130

d.a.n. -

Just imagine what either of us would be immediately charged with if we were found with just $9000, much less $90000 is our freezer. Jees… at this point I could care less what happens to him legally…

IT’S NOT ABOUT DOING WHAT’S LEGAL, IT’S ABOUT DOING WHAT’S RIGHT!!!!! (end of story)

Posted by: tony at May 22, 2006 11:35 AM
Comment #150151

The law is perverted to do the very things it was originally supposed to prevent.
The law applies differently to politicians.
They are above the law.
Even if convicted (even if they plead guilty), they get pardons.

William Jefferson is just the tip of the iceberg. I’m also beginning to think the Abramoff evidence is going to be swept under the rug too.

The elitist PC (Political Class) applies the law selectively, and they are above the law.
_______________________

  • I see PC people !

  • Stop Repeat Offenders.
  • Don’t Re-Elect Them !
Posted by: d.a.n at May 22, 2006 12:51 PM
Comment #150212

BIll S,

I have to STRONGLY disagree to this statement:

“I for one cannot accept doing what you have too to take care of your family as a crime.”

Well guess what?? When YOU are on the unemployment line because you can’t work for $15 an hour, but Tonto can, you can open your mouth and insert your Timberlands.

Posted by: Silent Majority at May 22, 2006 2:38 PM
Comment #150222

Rowan:

You might be interested to know, a new study has come out dealing with the massive waiting periods to get a green card:
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=66172

Among the findings of the study:

— Waits for green cards (permanent residence) in the Skilled Workers and Professionals category have worsened considerably in the past few years, with the current wait for a newly-sponsored high skill immigrant in this category exceeding five years.

— Siblings of U.S. citizens can expect to wait 11 to 12 years from today before immigrating to America (22 years from the Philippines). Unmarried adult children can anticipate waiting six years, but 13 years if from Mexico and 14 years from the Philippines.

— A spouse or minor child of a legal resident (green card holder) from Mexico has a seven year wait (a five year wait from other countries). A married child of a U.S. citizen must wait seven years to immigrate (11 and 15 years, respectively, if from Mexico or the Philippines).

Particularly given the longer waiting times for those of Mexican or Philippino origin, this seems highly relevant to the present debate over undocumented immigration.

Posted by: Jarandhel at May 22, 2006 3:05 PM
Comment #150305
Silent Majority wrote: When YOU are on the unemployment line …

Silent Majority, True. Many Americans do not realize that their irresponsible incumbent politicians are pitting illegal citizens against American citizens.

But, what is even more insidious of our corrupt government is the way it pits the poorest Americans and illegal aliens against each other, competing for the lower paying jobs.

Also, another thing that is often overlooked is that half of illegal aliens do not pay taxes, so they have an unfair advantage, which increases the profits for the greedy employer, profits that are not all passed on to all consumers.

Unfortunately, I predict:

  • that politicians will grant Amnesty

  • and/or a Guest Worker Program (a.k.a. Amnesty) to the illegal aliens
  • ,
  • still refuse to secure the borders,

  • refuse to eliminate the magnets (e.g. freebies, welfare, free education, healthcare, emergency care, food stamps, Medicare, Social Security, and voting, etc., etc., etc.),

  • government will allow the 12+ million will quadruple (or more) just like the 3 million in 1986 has quadrupled to 12+ million now,

  • and voters will keep re-electing the very same irresponsible incumbents that use and abuse everyone.

The illegal alien issue is a serious one, but it, like the other many pressing problems facing the nation will continue to grow in number and severity, as each are perpetually ignored and exacerbated by irresponsible government, that is perpetually re-elected by irresponsible voters.

We are being crushed by the weight of our own fiscal and moral bankruptcy, threatening the future and security of the nation.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 22, 2006 6:16 PM
Comment #150307

Jarandhel,
Exactly. Illegal immigration is impacting those attempting to immigrate legally. That’s not fair.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 22, 2006 6:17 PM
Comment #150330

d.a.n:

Do you have evidence that ties the illegal immigrants to the current waiting periods for legal immigration?

Frankly, from the data, it seems more likely that illegal immigration is encouraged by such long waiting periods. If going the legal route takes a skilled worker 5 years, how much longer are unskilled workers forced to wait? At a certain point, illegal immigration seems more tenable than waiting forever for government permission. Imagine if you applied for a drivers license at age 16 and five years later you were still waiting for it to come through, and were expected not to drive (even to work) in the meantime. Would that be reasonable, even if a lot of people were on the roads driving without licenses?

Posted by: Jarandhel at May 22, 2006 7:18 PM
Comment #150369


I hope you all don’t mind me responding at this time. With good skills or low skill, this does not entitled one to immigrate to America. Sure, there are over a 100 millions people around the world who would want to come here. Realistically, the country can only take so many each year. Besides, it would be simply foolish for ANY country to accept anyone who wants to come nowadays unrestricted. There are limited resources and social order to consider. Even an illegal alien would not like that to see that happen in his native country. Just look at Mexico very strict immigration policies.

As for what impacting what, I think it is quite obvious that both factors (illegal aliens and those trying legally) are impacting the wait time in varying degrees. Which is more, who knows.

Posted by: Daniel at May 22, 2006 9:00 PM
Comment #150389

Still, the baddest guy in America is not the poor S O B who comes in as cheap labor, but the crass shithead who will pay him less than minimum, just to make a buck.

Posted by: Marysdude at May 22, 2006 9:53 PM
Comment #150395

Daniel:

We seem to have absorbed millions of illegal immigrants with no significant ill effects to our economy or society. Apparently we are not taking on anywhere near our capacity for immigration each year, if we can also absorb so many illegals. You may claim that the illegals are the reason we cannot allow more in legally, but that makes no sense; it would only be true if you were planning to allow the illegals to stay permanently and thus including them in the quota for coming here legally. If you’re planning to get rid of them, then the number coming here or already here illegally should have no effect on the number allowed here legally.

And since I know d.a.n. is just waiting to jump in with his statistics claiming the illegals are destroying our country, and we really haven’t absorbed them without ill effect, let me counter by quoting an article Max linked to earlier:

Princeton University sociologist Douglas S. Massey reports that 62 percent of illegal immigrants pay income taxes (via withholding) and 66 percent contribute to Social Security. Forbes magazine notes that Mexican illegals aren’t clogging up the social-services system: only 5 percent receive food stamps or unemployment assistance; 10 percent send kids to public schools.

On the work front, Hispanic unemployment has tumbled to 5.5 percent, only slightly above the national average of 4.7 percent and considerably lower than the black unemployment rate of 9.3 percent. Economist Larry Kudlow praises Hispanic entrepreneurship: “According to 2002 Census Bureau data, Hispanics are opening businesses at a rate three times faster than the national average. In addition, there were almost 1.6 million Hispanic-owned businesses generating $222 billion in revenue in 2002.”

Skeptics counter that immigrants have clogged our hospitals, which is true — but primarily in places that offer lavish benefits to illegal immigrants.

As for crime, the picture doesn’t quite conform to conventional wisdom. Heather McDonald discovered that illegal immigrants in 2004 accounted for 95 percent of all outstanding homicide warrants in Los Angeles and two-thirds of unserved felony warrants. (Gangs, aided and abetted by laws that prevent local officials from handing illegal-immigrant criminals over to federal authorities, account for much of the mayhem.)

On the other hand, the most comprehensive survey to date of national crime data concludes, “In the small number of studies providing empirical evidence, immigrants are generally less involved in crime than similarly situated groups, despite the wealth of prominent criminological theories that provide good reasons why this should not be the case.”

Authors Ramiro Martinez Jr. and Matthew T. Lee note, for instance, that the Latino homicide rate in Miami is three times that of El Paso, Texas, which has one of the nation’s largest immigrant populations. That’s not just an anomaly. Another major study, “U.S. Impacts of Mexican Immigration,” by professors Michael J. Greenwood and Marta Tienda reports that “crime rates along the border are lower than those of comparable non-border cities.”

This doesn’t mean immigrants from Mexico are saints — it just means that they may not be the marauding horde some make them out to be. As it turns out, crime rates in the highest immigration states have been trending significantly downward.

Total crime and property crime in California are half what they were in 1980; violent crime has fallen more than a third. The state’s Hispanic population during that time has increased 120 percent.


http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/tonysnow/2006/03/31/192005.html Posted by: Jarandhel at May 22, 2006 10:19 PM
Comment #150403

Marysdude,
I agree. You have to break it down properly. There are degrees of culpability.
The order of culpability is as follows (1=least to blame, … 6=most to blame):

  • (1) illegal aliens that are simply looking for work and a way to support their family. It is hard to be angry at those illegal aliens; but that does not justify amnesty or cutting to the front of the legal immigration line ;

  • (2) voters, that ignored the problem for 20+ years;

  • (3) illegal aliens that abuse U.S. public benefits (e.g. 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare, Medicaid, Foodstamps, Medicare, Social Security, healthcare, drive about without a driver’s license or auto insurance, and use fake IDs).

  • (4) greedy employers of illegal aliens;

  • (5) irresponsible incumbent politicians that are now attempting to pit U.S. citizens and illegal aliens against each other, and will forget all about this issue immediately after the November elections (as usual).

  • (6) criminal illegal aliens. 29% of all prisoners in our federal, state, and local prisons are illegal aliens. These all represent crimes that should have never happened.

Jarandhel wrote: d.a.n: Do you have evidence that ties the illegal immigrants to the current waiting periods for legal immigration? Frankly, from the data, it seems more likely that illegal immigration is encouraged by such long waiting periods. If going the legal route takes a skilled worker 5 years, how much longer are unskilled workers forced to wait? At a certain point, illegal immigration seems more tenable than waiting forever for government permission.

Our immigration laws in no way justify foreigners to break our laws, and trespass our borders illegally. We are not obligated to allow anyone to immigrate here, if we so choose.

But, the U.S. has always allowed legal immigration. However, the legal immigration has most likely been curtailed some, and waiting is longer because of illegal aliens.

The argument that the wait is too long is flawed, since the U.S. can not allow everyone that wants to come here. It’s not practical. There’s too many. You can’t make the pie any bigger. You can’t let everyone come here. Illegal aliens are already costing U.S. citizens $70 billion to $139 billion per year. Since most are not highly skilled or educated, many become a burden, as evidenced by the massive $70 billion to $139 billion of net losses to U.S. citizens (per year).

Imagine if you applied for a drivers license at age 16 and five years later you were still waiting for it to come through, and were expected not to drive (even to work) in the meantime. Would that be reasonable, even if a lot of people were on the roads driving without licenses?
Jarandhel, Bad analogy. What do you think would happen if the borders were opened completely wide open. As it is, over a million per year are arrested and deported, but over a million get through any way. With no deterrents at all, that would turn into tens of millions (or more). Is that what you’d like? Do you want to make all the illegal aliens legal? If that happens, which it probably will, what do you think will happen. What happened in 1986 will happen again, when 3 million turned into 12 million. Do it again, and 12 million will turn into 48 million (or more). If that is what you want, you will most likely what you will get. Our corrupt government is pitting U.S. citizens and illegal aliens against each other, competing for jobs.

There are 2.3 million displaced workers, because illegal aliens have many advantages to greedy employers: no taxes, no insurance, no safety requirements, etc.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 22, 2006 10:38 PM
Comment #150409
At a certain point, illegal immigration seems more tenable than waiting forever for government permission. Imagine if you applied for a drivers license at age 16 and five years later you were still waiting for it to come through, and were expected not to drive (even to work) in the meantime. Would that be reasonable, even if a lot of people were on the roads driving without licenses?

Jarandhel,
If you’re going to use analogies, it should be truly analogous. The driver’s license analogy is a bad analogy.

Here’s a better analogy:
You go to the theatre to see a movie, but the 7 PM showing is sold out. Do you have a right to trespass into the theatre anyway? Or, should you wait your turn and wait for a later showing?

Same goes for illegal aliens. When they come here illegally and defraud our welfare (32% of illegal aliens receive welfare), healthcare, E.R.s, hospitals, schools, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, and voting systems and burden our law enforcement and prison systems (29% of all incarcerated are illegal aliens), they are stealing. The are costing U.S. citizens net losses of over $70 billion per year (after taxes and the value of their labor is accounted for). Half of illegal aliens don’t pay taxes, and the ones that do pay taxes, do not justify their trespass.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 22, 2006 10:55 PM
Comment #150410

d.a.n.,

You’ve set the problem up, and if we voted those dastardly incumbants out we MIGHT get a fix, but ‘cut off the money’, i.e., arrest and convict employers who break the immigration laws, and the illegals will go home.

Posted by: Marysdude at May 22, 2006 10:55 PM
Comment #150432

Illegal aliens can and do contribute to the increased wait time. An illegal alien can file papers on several ways to obtain some sort legalization such as political asylum (many are phony), hardship, anchor baby in the U.S., marriage (some are fake), using phony documents for legalization, and the complicity with employers legalized as a needed worker. Those illegals that got legalized will bring in ten more legally and illegally. Keep in mind, those millions of illegals that got legalized back in the late 80’s are still trying to bringing in more.

Posted by: Daniel at May 23, 2006 12:03 AM
Comment #150445

d.a.n. I’ve done some research on your figures about the criminal and welfare status of illegal aliens and your numbers appear to be highly suspect.

While determining the percentage of illegals on welfare is immpossible, since we don’t have an accurate count on illegals, the studies I see cite that of those living with an illegal head of household at least 24% have one member of that household recieving some sort of welfare assistance (i.e. wic or medicaid, or welfare) This compares to 17% for US ciizens. More likely ,
but not unexpected given their economic satus.

As to the prison populations you are citing border state numbers, not national numbers and again those numbers are 33% for some border states (California, the highest) and 17% for Federal. But even these numbers are somewhat confusing. The most likely conviction? Illegal Immigration. Also since there has been a drive by state and local entitiies to gain federal compensation, these numbers have recently spiked, suggesting that some may not actually represent convictions.

I don’t deny there is a cost associated with this influx of slave labor. But I ask why do we not shift this burden to the businesses that are currently being subsidized by the use of this labor? Why not point out the real culprits here? It’s seems like you are protecting the incumbent Democrats and Republicans who benefit from the political donations of the businesses that get rich off this human trafficking. Let’s go after the real criminals here.

Posted by: gergle at May 23, 2006 4:17 AM
Comment #150489
gergle wrote: d.a.n. I’ve done some research on your figures about the criminal and welfare status of illegal aliens and your numbers appear to be highly suspect.

gergle,
I provided links to sources.
You provided none.
Where are the links to your sources?

The links to my sources are all provided, with dates.
Many are GAO Reports. Other are from dozens of other reputable organizations.

Here is just one article from 15-Aug-2003 that states that 32% of all illegal alien households receive welfare. If a household contains more than one person, that would put the total number of illegal aliens recieving welfare even higher than 32%. There are sources that place the number of illegal aliens as high as 36% to 42%, but I can not substantiate those, so I stick with the 32%, which is also reported by Frosty Wooldridge, www.theamericanresistance.com/articles/art2004jan04.html, and here (32% of all illegal-immigrant households)

Also, what is unseen is the free medical care that has degraded and closed some of America’s finest Emergency Medical facilities, and caused hospital bankruptcies: 84 California hospitals are closing their doors. “Anchor-babies” born to illegal aliens instantly qualify as citizens for welfare benefits and have caused enormous rises in Medicaid costs and stipends under Supplemental Security Income and Disability Income. One city, Laredo, Texas, alone, foots the bill for 2000 anchor-babies (per year).

gergle, even the values you quote are higher than the norm (as you acknowedged above).

gergle wrote: As to the prison populations you are citing border state numbers, not national numbers and again those numbers are 33% for some border states (California, the highest) and 17% for Federal.
Wrong. The numbers I gave you are national, including all state, local, and federal jails. That data is from a GAO-05-646R report. The total prison population is currently about 2.2 million. Illegal aliens are 29% (638,000) of that. Also, in a study group of 55,322 illegal aliens, each had been arrested an average of 13 times.

Again, some other sources now place that percentage at 33%. But, until more data is available, I’ll stick with the 29% .

gergle wrote: I don’t deny there is a cost associated with this influx of slave labor.
Yes, the net costs (nationwide) are conservatively estimated at a net loss of $70 billion per year to U.S. citizens, and that is after deducting taxes paid (only half of illegal aliens pay taxes, and it ain’t much at that, since most of those jobs are low skill and low paying jobs). California alone reports net losses over $10.5 billion per year.
gergle wrote: But I ask why do we not shift this burden to the businesses that are currently being subsidized by the use of this labor?
Because our corrupt, bought-and-paid-for, FOR-SALE, do-nothing, irresponsible, greedy politicians want votes and cheap labor.
gergle wrote: Why not point out the real culprits here? It’s seems like you are protecting the incumbent Democrats and Republicans who benefit from the political donations of the businesses that get rich off this human trafficking. Let’s go after the real criminals here.

gergle,
You’re joking? Right?
I am protecting incumbent politicians?
Everyone will get a big laugh out of that,
since I have a web-site (One-Simple-Idea.com) dedicated to voting out all irresponsible incumbents, always … and am a member of VOIDnow.org, whose mission is also to educate voters to vote out all irresponsible incumbents, always.

I do not take these statistics lightly.
Many of the statistics I post are conservative because some are older statistics. Illegal immigration accelerated drastically after 1995 and new statistics, when available, will undoubtedly be even more severe.

Also see the following:

  • fairus.org

  • www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters0b9c

  • cis.org

  • theamericanresistance.com

  • www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf

  • www.cis.org/articles/2004/back704.html (in year 2000, 30% of federal prisoners are illegal aliens)

  • www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecentersf134 (net losses are over $70 billion per year to U.S. citizens)
  • www.washingtondispatch.com/article_9984.shtml (29% of all prisoners in our state and federal prisons are are illegal aliens)

  • … more …

Posted by: d.a.n at May 23, 2006 11:26 AM
Comment #150492

Marysdude,
I agree, deporting 12+ million illegal aliens is not practical.
Simply secure the border and eliminate the magnets.
However, I would also, for humanitarian reasons, like to offer pre-paid transportation and $500 per person to all that voluntarily choose to leave. Why? Because we shouldn’t starve them out. That is a fair solution.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 23, 2006 11:33 AM
Comment #150723


D.an. lots of links there. Many to highly politicised and questionable data.

I actually read the GAO link on ARRESTS( not convictions). Note I said arrests. It was based on a sample of 55,000 illegals. Guess what they were arested for? 45% were arrested for immigration violations and identity fraud. That’s in your own data link. Your estimates are highly biased and not supported by fact.

I’m well aware you want to vote out incumbents. I’m all for that. But your zealotry undermines your case. You don’t focus on the business fraud associated with this issue. You play on the same fears that the politicians are hiding behind. In that way you are helping them.

I’m curious do you have any government links on the welfare issue?

I would also note the reason that there was an upsurge in illegals in 1995 was a reporting issue, there was a change in the methodology of reporting the data.

Posted by: gergle at May 23, 2006 10:47 PM
Comment #150771
gergle wrote: I actually read the GAO link on ARRESTS(not convictions).
gergle wrote: 45% were arrested for immigration violations and identity fraud
The arrests for immigration violations are for multiple violations. The first violation is only a misdemeanor. Also, having falsified documentation is a felony. Do you think those crimes should be overlooked?

Yes, an arrest does not necessarily mean they were guilty.
Neither does a conviction for that matter.
So, all 55,322 arrested illegal aliens, over a 57 year period, with an average stay of 21 months, must all be false arrests?
So, all 55,322 of the illegal aliens, each having been arrested an average of 13 times each, were all falsely arrested?
So, all 5992 arrests for murders were false arrests too?

gergle wrote: You don’t focus on the business fraud associated with this issue. You play on the same fears that the politicians are hiding behind. In that way you are helping them.

Not true. I have noted repeated the fraud by government and business countless times, of which many can verify. I can’t even count the number of times I have called those employers greedy. I have repeatedly pointed out that irresponsible incumbent politicians simply want votes and cheal labor, and repeatedly point to the corruption and graft (especially pork-barrel (a.k.a. corporate welfare, graft, and bribes)) by government and business all the time. Have you not seem my list of Crooked CEOs, CFO, Presidents, VPs, etc.:
Ken Lay (ENRON)
Bernard Ebbers (WorldCOM)
David Myers (WorldCOM)
Dennis Kozlowski (Tyco)
Mark H. Swartz (Tyco)
John Rigas (Aldelphia)
Timothy Rigas (Aldelphia)
Scott Sullivan (WorldCOM)
Burford Yates (WolrdCOM)
Jeff Skilling (ENRON)
Andrew Fastow (ENRON)
Lea Fastow (ENRON)
Samuel D. Waksal (ImClone Systems)
David Duncan (Arthur Andersen)
E. Kirk Shelton (Cendant)
Ben Glisan Jr. (ENRON)
Dan Boyle (ENRON)
Weston Smith (HealthSouth)
Aaron Beam (HealthSouth)

gergle wrote: You play on the same fears that the politicians are hiding behind. In that way you are helping them… . . Your estimates are highly biased and not supported by fact… . But your zealotry undermines your case.

Not true. Just the facts. If the facts are wrong, prove it.
I don’t post anything without multiple sources. You may choose to disbelieve it if you like. Please believe what you want to believe.

For the 32% of illegal aliens receiving welfare, see the following from CIS.org:

… showing 26% of all illegal alien households (in 2002) receiving welfare, and 2.7 persons per household (for 3,787,864 households). Therefore, 2.7 x 3,787,864 equals 10,222,233 persons (85% of 12+ million). However, some illegal alien parents have children born in the U.S. (anchor babies). So, assuming there is only one illegal alien per household, there are 3,787,864 illegal aliens receiving welfare, which is 32% of 12+ million.

Thus, as I’ve said all along, at least 32% of all illegal aliens receive welfare, and that is a conservative esitmate based on only one illegal alien per household receiving welfare.

The crime rates are also backed up by multiple sources, and are even easier to verify. I stated that 29% of all 2.2 million incarcerated are illegal aliens. There are many sources for those numbers (and some more recent numbers are even higher then 29%).
In GAO-05-337 Report, in 2004, it states that 27% of all incarcerated in federal prisons were illegal aliens (which corroborates the current 29% of all incarcerated).

gergle, you keep telling me my data is suspect, but you provide nothing to refute it, while I provide hundreds of links to sources for every number I use. I even refuse to use some figures that I believe have inflated the numbers.
You accuse me of giving a pass to business, which is false, since I post more than most about corporatism and corpocrisy.
You accuse me of giving a pass to politicians, which is false.
You accuse me of zealotry, which is false, since all I do is present the data and the sources of that data; I don’t make up data. If you don’t like the data, tell the GAO, CIS.ORG, FAIRUS.ORG, Washhington Post, Washington Times, Townhall.com, TheAmericanResistance.com, Frosty Wooldridge, etc., and the police forces in many cities that say the crime rates for illegal aliens have definitely been rising for over a decade.

I have been objective, and provided sources for every number and statistic. Therefore, your accusations are unsubstantiated. You can say it is suspect, zealotry, and biased all you want, but that does not make your accusations true. You can’t or won’t provide data and links to refute it. You simple say it is suspicious. Before you draw conclusions and accuse others of bias, zealotry, and fear mongering, perhaps you should do more research, and show us your data and links to refute it.

If you don’t like the data, pick one topic (such as the disputed 32% of illegal aliens receiving welfare, or the 29% of all incarcerated being illegal aliens, etc.) … pick one, and disprove it. Saying you don’t believe it doesn’t mean squat.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 24, 2006 1:41 AM
Comment #150865

Ummm I already pointed out the misleading character of the conviction data. You haven’t refuted it, just stated that you think illegal immigration is criminal. We know that.

I’m not really interested in confusing the issues with an over abundance of links to partisan sites.
cis.org and fairus.org don’t provide independant data that I could find. Nor do they state who their contributors are. They mostly offer opinion, with a clear agenda.

d.a.n. The issue I asked about is your welfare data. I haven’t found a good resource for that. cis.org did have an opinion piece that stated what I stated: that while illegal immigrants did have a slightly higher rate that natives, it didn’t have data that I found that supported your claims. In 1996 welfare legislation was passed to deny welfare to both illegal and legal immigrants here less than 3 years.

d.a.n. I’m not your enemy here. I’m trying to offer constructive criticism. You are clearly driven, but your responses are over the top to say the least. Please respond to this one point. And keep it to the point and on the subject, if you want me to engage you.

The point of this blog IMO is to bring the evidence to this site, not send someone searching the internet to verify your data. Hyperlinks to germain data are useful.

You are correct I haven’t provided links. I haven’t made the assertions you make. To be honest I lost one of the links i used to refute your data , but then when I looked at your data it isn’t supported in the way you characterize.

My original suspicion is that the data on illegals is thin, and highly partisan. My research thus far has born that out.

Posted by: gergle at May 24, 2006 12:04 PM
Comment #150925

d.a.n.

After reading the data at cis.org on welfare, I also have to question your conclusions.
1. Welfare as defined by cis.org includes medicare. Most people I know think of medicaid as something separate from welfare. This appears misleading, since it is the single largest contributor to “welfare” payments to illegals.

2. your math is suspect. Please note that the payments to illegal households is lower than natives. No where did they apply 2.7x to arrive at the numbers you have. I frankly don’t get that calculation. The data in these tables also seem to conflict with those below.

3. It appears from the footnotes that the illegal Immigrant population numbers they used are from 2000 and estimated at 7 to 8 million. This could strongly affect percentages quoted. Again the data appears unavailable and not clear.

Again, I agree you have a case. I just think overstating and misleading facts undermine your case.

I think that the focus of this should not be the impact of illegals on welfare or even employment wages, rather the impact of politicians advocating anger at illegal invasion, which riles racist fervor, while ignoring the impact of illegal employers/political contributors getting a pass on this issue.

It’s the working and middle class vs. the political and connected elite, not the U.S. vs. Mexico.

Posted by: gergle at May 24, 2006 2:11 PM
Comment #151004
gergle wrote: It’s the working and middle class vs. the political and connected elite, not the U.S. vs. Mexico.

Well, mostly. Not exactly.

There is an order of culpability. Yes politicians and greedy employers of illegal aliens are the worst (except for criminal illegal aliens guilty of serious felony crimes). Voters are to blame to for repeatedly re-electing corrupt politians.

True, some politicians are pitting voters and illegal aliens against each other. Culpability is as follows (1=least to blame, … 6=most to blame):

  • (1) least culpable: illegal aliens that are simply looking for work and a way to support their family. It is hard to be angry at those illegal aliens; but that does not justify amnesty or cutting to the front of the legal immigration line ;

  • (2) voters, that ignored the problem for 20+ years, and keep re-electing the very same incumbent politicians that use and abuse them;

  • (3) illegal aliens that abuse U.S. public benefits (e.g. 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare, Medicaid, Foodstamps, Medicare, Social Security, healthcare, drive about without a driver’s license or auto insurance, and use fake IDs).

  • (4) greedy employers of illegal aliens;

  • (5) most culpable of Americans: irresponsible incumbent politicians, some that are now attempting to pit U.S. citizens and illegal aliens against each other, who are extremely negligent for ignoring this problem for 20 years and letting this problem grow out of control; and politicians will forget all about this issue immediately after the November elections (as usual); the most likely outcome is “nothing will change”; If breaking the law is a crime, our politicians are all criminals. Especially since many actively worked to force states to accommodate illegal aliens.

  • (6) criminal illegal aliens; 29% of all 2.2 million incarcerated in federal, state, and local prisons are illegal aliens. These all represent crimes that should have never happened. For a study group of 55,322 illegal aliens in Texas, Arizona, and California over 57 years, illegal aliens had an average arrest rate of 13 arrests per illegal alien, and one homicide every 86 hours. That is only for that 55,322 study group, which is only a small portion of the total 638,000 incarcerated illegal aliens. Crime in some areas is drastically out of control. In Los Angeles, 95% of all warrants for homicide are for illegal aliens, and 67% of all warrants for felonies are for illegal aliens.
    On 24-May-2006, Vicente Fox visited Utah to lobby for amnesty for illegal aliens. What a hypocrite. According to statistics by the Salt Lake City Police Department, 80% of all drug crimes in the City are committed by illegal aliens. In Salt Lake County, the equivalent number is about 50%. That’s why Congressman Cannon of Utah is on the Immigration Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee, working to insure that interior states, like Utah, are not overlooked in the war on illegal immigration.

gergle wrote: No where did they apply 2.7x to arrive at the numbers you have. I frankly don’t get that calculation.
The 2.7 was merely the average number of illegal aliens per household in 2002 (from the graph posted above: May 24, 2006 01:41 AM). It’s not that relevant, unless all members of the household are illegal aliens. Often, there is an anchor-baby in the household that has qualified for welfare.

The chart you provided above (for 1996 to 2001) shows some pretty large percentages for illegal aliens. 23% for Medicaid in 2001. 24.1% for any welfare program. What do you think those percentages are now, considering the accelerated inflow of over 1.2 million (or more?) illegal aliens per year?

The root issue is the degree of welfare used by illegal aliens.
Every article you find will say the use of welfare by illegal aliens is significantly higher than the norm (i.e. higher than that of U.S. citizens).

So the argument now is to what degree?
Estimates go as high as 46%.
Some older reports state about 18%.
Almost all estimates place it higher than the norm.
But, most more recent estimates state about 32% (below):

  • (1) In 2003, 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare.

  • (2) In 2004, 36% to 42% of illegal aliens receive welfare.

  • (3) In 2002, 26% of 3.8 million households with illegal alien(s) received Food Stamps, 17% recevied Medicaid, 4% received other types of welfare, and 45% paid no taxes.

  • www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1405.html

  • www.nickschweitzer.net/PermaLink.aspx?guid=114373078739612594

  • kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=4238797&nav=HMO6

  • www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_floridacostsstudy

  • www.gao.gov/archive/1998/he98030.pdf

  • www.gao.gov/archive/1995/he95133.pdf

  • www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2005/tst080805.htm

So, it’s safe to say the amount of welfare going to illegal aliens is substantial … especially when no illegal aliens should be receiving any welfare. Even the illegal aliens simply coming here to find work are not justified to draw welfare or any benefits, since they are here illegally, and many are using falsified documentation, fake IDs, fake Social Security numbers, and fake drivers licenses.

But, you are right. Corrupt, irresponsible incumbent politicians are more to blame than the illegal alien mere looking for a job.

This problem, and many problems can be fixed if voters stop re-electing the very irresponsible incumbent politicians that created and ignored this problem.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 24, 2006 4:50 PM
Comment #151086

Well, I agree somewhat about welfare, just not Medicaid. Medicaid is the way hospitals get paid for rendering service to those without insurance. I am bothered by calling this welfare considering 46 million people do not have health insurance.

The money again goes to these businesses not the immigrants. This simply reflects their underclass status. I wouldn’t let a dog die in the street of illness or starvation, nor would I let an illegal immigrant. Saying no to illegals is not the fair answer. Saying no to the businesses and politicians that lure them is.

Again, it is the businesses and the politicians who support them that bear the burden of responsibility for these hidden subsidies of a business culture that flauts the law at the expense of the middleclass.

Posted by: gergle at May 24, 2006 10:37 PM
Comment #151351

Why can’t the government be as smart as d.a.n? The ideas given by him are genius. It would work, it would’t totally piss off all the immigrants and best of all, it gets MOST, if not ALL of them out of here!

Posted by: PoliticalTeen at May 25, 2006 5:30 PM
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