Democrats & Liberals Archives

Blame The Mexicans

The United States has some issues right now(Understatement of the century). Instead of solving those problems and looking inward, we can just as easily blame the Mexicans. I saw so many different flags being waved in the streets of Chicago, Miami and New York. I saw people of many colors. For some reason alot of us just saw Mexicans.

The war in Iraq has cost thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars.
We are there because our president distorted intelligence and doctored evidence.
Our government is as corrupt as it has been in years and they passed an ethics bill that amounts to a Band-Aid on a bullet wound.
Pork attachments preventing the legitimacy of real legislation.
Illegal wiretapping on U.S. citizens.
What do we do?
Let's just blame the damn Mexicans.
Poverty.
Mexicans.
Failing Education system.
Mexicans.
Healthcare dilemma.
Wealth disparity.
Mexicans.
Gas prices.
Mexicans.
Millions of illegal immigrants, from MANY nations, are in our country, using our resources, adding to the economy and protesting for a right to stay in the United States.
Blame the Mexicans.
Those damn Mexicans hispanicanizing everything. Why do we have to watch The George Lopez show and Dora The F******g Explorer? Vamanos my a**.
Taco Bell?
Remember that damn Chiuaua?
Give me McDonalds any day.
If you lose your job tommorow, don't blame the economy or the fact that your company shipped your job to the Philipines, just blame the damn Mexicans.
Especially if you do lawns and pick grapes.
We must rid ourselves of the Mexicans who are attempting to take back this great nation by cleaning our pools and watching wealthy white children.
What's next "Low Rriders" instead of our beloved SUV's?
Good god fearing folks wearing sombrero's and firing pistols in the air?
"Badges, we don't need no stinking badges!"
Is this the kind of thing we want our AMERICAN children exposed to?
It is long overdue. We must build a wall (See King Kong), electrify it, dig a moat, fill it with hungry(for Mexican) Croccodiles, post rabid wolves and angry jobless white guys armed to the teeth along our border(Not the one with Canada, just the Mexican one).
We have to stop this madness now.
Remember "Livin La Vida Loca?" what about the F*****g Macarena.? I for one cannot go through that again. Those were painful times for all of us.
I say we invade Miami and kill Gloria Estefan. I'm serious!
Next time you're exiting the highway and one of those damn Mexicans tries to sell you oranges(UnAmerican Oranges I suspect)You know what to do. Stop the car, get out, pretend you're going to buy oranges, when he let's his guard down, kick him in the nuts, blame him for your problems and hop in the car and go home, but go home with the satisfaction that you did a great service for your country.
Get the hell out you damn Mexicans.
Take your oranges and Chalupas(What the hell are those?) with you.


Posted by Andre M. Hernandez at May 5, 2006 10:11 AM
Comments
Comment #145614

Every great country mush have it’s “shitkicker scapegoats.”

Germany had the Jews.

We have the Mexicans!

Now, I’m heading out to he bar to celebrate Cinco De Mayo! will all my real Merican (white or black) friends!

and what about at least tipping the legal brown people who serve me my beer…

as GW Bush said: “Not going to answer that [question] in French. Not going to answer it in English. Not going to answer it in Mexican.”

Posted by: tony at May 5, 2006 11:27 AM
Comment #145615

Yeah!!

Posted by: Marysdude at May 5, 2006 11:30 AM
Comment #145618

Marysdude - Andre -

Did you guy listent to the political spot I linked to in the previous post? It’s fits this post to a tee (it even suggests Mexicans bringing in the their gay lovers on marriage visas… )

Posted by: tony at May 5, 2006 11:33 AM
Comment #145620

Andre, it must be very tiring carry that huge load of bull crap you’re trying to peddle. I live in Texas, don’t hate, despise, misuse or look down on anyone of any nationality who is in the U.S. legally. What most Americans want is for our border and immigration laws to be enforced. If our current laws are seen to be wrong, we have a legal method to change them. Crawl back into your hole and stop attempting to slander those of us who actually obey the law.
Jim

Posted by: Jim Martin at May 5, 2006 11:39 AM
Comment #145622

I say we invade Miami and kill Gloria Estefan. I’m serious!
Posted by Andre M. Hernandez at May 5, 2006 10:11 AM

*** WATCHBLOG MAMAGING EDITOR ***
PLEASE DELETE THIS ENTIRE THREAD!

Posted by: ohrealy at May 5, 2006 11:43 AM
Comment #145624

JimMartin,

“Crawl back into your hole”
How did you know I lived in a hole?

“it must be very tiring carry that huge load of bull crap you’re trying to peddle.”

It’s tough getting up stairs and my arms do get a little tired but I manage.

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at May 5, 2006 11:48 AM
Comment #145628

ohrealy,

I hope you know that I don’t really sanction the use of military force against “The Miami Sound Machine.”
The “Backstreet Boys, now that’s a different story.

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at May 5, 2006 11:54 AM
Comment #145631

OK - I’ll trade you 13 mexicans for B5 or Hillary Duff? Both of them? Hell, send them to Cancun and tell them it’s a permanent vacation… (JUST get them off my daughter’s stereo… AGGHH!)

Posted by: tony at May 5, 2006 12:12 PM
Comment #145632

Andre
Sounds good to me. And while I’m at it, I’ll blame the Mexicans for the flat tire I had yesterday. If they weren’t here illegally that nail wouldn’t have been in the road.
Did you ever figure that the reason that we see more Mexicans illegals is because THERE ARE MORE Mexican illegals than any other group?
Funny, whenever they show folks jumping the boarder in San Diego the ones doing it are almost 100% Mexican.
Illegals are illegals regardless of where they come from. And everyone of them needs to be deported regardless of where they came from.
The problem I have is why don’t yaall kick the assholes ruining your country out of office and put in folks that’ll help it?
I plan to do that in November here. And keep doing it until we get folks that’ll help instead of ruin.

Posted by: Ron Brown at May 5, 2006 12:19 PM
Comment #145633

Jim -

Why so much on the name calling and attacking? You might have decent points to be made, but it’s impossible to hear through all the sladerous remarks.

“Andre, it must be very tiring carry that huge load of bull crap you’re trying to peddle. I live in Texas, don’t hate, despise, misuse or look down on anyone of any nationality who is in the U.S. legally. What most Americans want is for our border and immigration laws to be enforced. If our current laws are seen to be wrong, we have a legal method to change them. Crawl back into your hole and stop attempting to slander those of us who actually obey the law.
Jim”

See, there’s a point ot be made - right there in the middle of your post, but it’s sandwiched in between insults… so people tend to ignore the point you are making. Try to be civil…

Posted by: tony at May 5, 2006 12:19 PM
Comment #145634

Jim Martin,

“Andre, it must be very tiring carry that huge load of bull crap you’re trying to peddle. I live in Texas, don’t hate, despise, misuse or look down on anyone of any nationality who is in the U.S. legally.”

Does that mean that you “hate, dispise, misuse, or look down on anyone that isn’t here legally”?

If so that is the problem.
In the last few months these folks have become the butt of everything that America hates, and that attitude makes us all less as Americans.
Whether or not they have arrived here by legal or illegal means, they are still human beings.
They may not have the right to enjoy America as Americans, but they still are humans and should be accorded the rights due them as such.

Posted by: Rocky at May 5, 2006 12:25 PM
Comment #145639

Does the fact that there are many Americans who want the illegal immigrants problem solved mean they look at them as less than human?

NO

That kind of irresponsible spin doesn’t help the dialog any.

This is the biggest bunch of bullshit I have ever seen on Watchblog.

I agree, the whole post should be removed, as it advocates murder.

Posted by: womanmarine at May 5, 2006 12:34 PM
Comment #145640

Speaking of distortion…
Aaahhh…the true blue colors of the party…

Posted by: Cliff at May 5, 2006 12:40 PM
Comment #145641

Womanmarine,

It’s a joke. I do not support invading Miami. I do not think we should use military force against a 90’s latin-pop band.
If you still feel that I pose a threat to The Miami Sound Machine feel free to contact their agent.
Lighten up.

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at May 5, 2006 12:43 PM
Comment #145642

Andre:

Lighten up yourself. Your whole diatribe is wrong and disgusting.

Posted by: womanmarine at May 5, 2006 12:49 PM
Comment #145648

Womanmarine?

Why?
Do alot of the things I said sound silly?
Ridiculous?
Listen to the folks who protest the marchers.
It’s pretty disgusting.
This is just a way to point out how silly those who are getting angry with immigrants and blaming them for their willingness to sneak in and work for more money than they can make at home.
If you’re told there exists a law that is not enforced and by the lack of enforcement you were able to prosper. Can we now call you the problem when lawmakers use the issue to try to get political credibility and people all of the sudden look at you like you’re the problem?
No.
The lack of enforcement of laws is the problem.
The people who hire them are the problem.
Wouldn’t you think these guys were pretty stupid not to come here and work for more money?
I’m just saying, let’s not blame them and Mexicans are not the only people coming here illegally.

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at May 5, 2006 1:07 PM
Comment #145652

It’s kind of the Colbert Report type humor… using sarcasm and satire to point out serious flaws in logic.

As far as murder goes…???

I agree with you on most of your posts… and maybe this type of humor is not your bag… but I would expect you and others to simply avoid this post if it offends you and not to try and censure it simply because you don’t appreciate it.

Posted by: tony at May 5, 2006 1:18 PM
Comment #145664

When I read your post I got the impression that you are making these humorous comments to hide the real issue. The immigration problem is due to illegal immigration which is by and large Mexican people entering the Country illegally.Yes other have followed that fine example, which proves that if you let 1 group do it more will follow and follow and follow and follow. I cant understand why any one would think this is a good thing. You mention picking grapes and mowing lawns however you left out the Construction and packing plant jobs as well as food service jobs being worked by people in this country illegally. But now for my reai question: What law should we decide we will abandon next. We abandoned our immigration laws so what next .

Posted by: j2t2 at May 5, 2006 1:55 PM
Comment #145665

This is a flamebaiting thread which was NOT accidentally posted on the Cinco de Mayo.

Posted by: ohrealy at May 5, 2006 1:56 PM
Comment #145668

I don’t think it is blaming Mexicans to want to get better control of the borders and to limit in influx of cheap labor that corrupts us. I don’t think it is blaming Mexicans to demand that immigrants learn the language of the country of their choice and I don’t think it is blaming Mexicans to demand that immigrants acknowlege the U.S. as the country of their FIRST loyalty.

My grandfather was Polish. There are still lots of Polish illegal aliens in America today. I say the same thing to them.

America is a land of immigrants. But when they get here, they BECOME Americans. That is the rule. They left the countries of their origin because THEY think America is a better place for them. If they are mistaken, let them depart. They made the choice to come to America. We didn’t force them to come. Most immigrants know this. Those that don’t can go.

Posted by: Jack at May 5, 2006 2:12 PM
Comment #145669


Good job Andre,keep it coming, we don’t need to win the election this fall.


PORTER GOSS RESIGNS!!!

Posted by: jlw at May 5, 2006 2:14 PM
Comment #145675

Jack -

Not sure I get your point. ALL immigrants I know - and there are quite a few - ALL immigrants love American, the idea of being American… I’m curious to know what they have done to make you question their allegance to America.

Is it that they carry their native flag as well as the American flag? That is the nature of dual citizens (or especially first generation Americans.) They have a proud past and with that comes a wealth that has made our American past what it is. Surely, we are not so vain as to consider honoring one’s other country degrades their honor of America…

Maybe it’s burning the flag - although I’ve not actually seen this one. I know quite a few die-hard Americans who have burned the flag. It has nothing to do with disrespecting America and everything to do with disrespecting those who are ruining America.

Posted by: tony at May 5, 2006 2:29 PM
Comment #145677

Maybe this humor will hit closer to home:

Illegal Immigrants Returning To Mexico For American Jobs

“MEXICO CITY—As dozens of major American corporations continue to move their manufacturing operations to Mexico, waves of job-seeking Mexican immigrants to the United States have begun making the deadly journey back across the border in search of better-paying Mexican-based American jobs.”

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/47978

Posted by: tony at May 5, 2006 2:36 PM
Comment #145679

Andre,

Don’t hold back, dude… tell us how you REALLY feel. :-)

Everyone else,

Most of you have failed to get Andre’s point. It wasn’t about Gloria Estefan. It was about racism.

It’s not just Mexicans that are crossing our borders. I used to know a guy who lived illegally in this country for nearly 7 years. He finally decided to go home on his own. During that time, he was never questioned, never confronted, regarding his citizenship. Why? He was a white guy who happened to be from England. He worked the odd cash-only job from time to time, but mostly just mooched off of his friends. He didn’t really contribute anything to our society, and yet nobody bothered to question him. Oh, and, for the record, he came in via the wide-open CANADIAN border.

If he had been dark-haired, dark-skinned, and had a last name like Hernandez or Rodriguez, he probably would have been deported. But, as he was a white guy, most people didn’t care.

Therein lies the real issue here.

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at May 5, 2006 2:41 PM
Comment #145680

Rob -

EXACTLY.

Posted by: tony at May 5, 2006 2:44 PM
Comment #145682

Rob and Tony:

Sorry, but applying that to everyone is just wrong. For many it isn’t about racism no matter how you try to portray it. It’s about illegal immigrants no matter where they are from, what color, what language they speak.

The laws need to be enforced and strengthened.

And to just say immigrants without differentiating between legal and illegal is what the media and others are trying to do to blur the issue.

I have no problem at all with any legal immigrants. Please don’t paint me and others with a brush you all have invented.

Posted by: womanmarine at May 5, 2006 2:49 PM
Comment #145684

Mexicans are NOT Americans, so who really cares if we blame them or not?

Posted by: kctim at May 5, 2006 3:01 PM
Comment #145686

womanmarine,

You’re right — for many people, it’s not about racism. I never said that was everyone’s problem. But there has been a hell of a lot of underlying racism in these debates, whether people realize it or not. Whenever someone starts complaining about people not “speaking the language”, for example, they’re crossing that line. There are plenty of people in this country — legally, even — who don’t speak English. It’s not a crime to speak a different language. But when I assume that anyone who doesn’t speak the language is an illegal, or that the illegals are the sole reason some people in America don’t speak English, I’m succumbing to stereotyping.

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at May 5, 2006 3:13 PM
Comment #145687

“The laws need to be enforced and strengthened.”

Why? I hear lots of issues tossed around (loss of American jobs, drain of resources, breaking the law…) and I don’t see a lot of factual connection to the real world - I see opinions and fears, but not much beyond that.

What is the damage done by illegal immigrants? Seriously. For every financial issue we face, there’s a financial benefit to balance it (and I’m not talking about cheap labor.)

I will agree that various issues must be addressed, but to hear talk about how most things bad in our country can be attributed to illegal immigrants or foolish ideas of “lets send them all home now” make it hard to focus on real solutions.

Posted by: tony at May 5, 2006 3:13 PM
Comment #145688

kctim,

Mexicans are NOT Americans, so who really cares if we blame them or not?

Anyone who cares about their fellow man for reasons other than blind patriotism, that’s who.

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at May 5, 2006 3:14 PM
Comment #145689

“Mexicans are NOT Americans, so who really cares if we blame them or not?”

Is that really how low the bar is set on this debate?

Posted by: tony at May 5, 2006 3:16 PM
Comment #145692

What’s wrong with blaming the Mexicans?? The blacks get blamed for lots of stuff, the Asians get blamed for lots of stuff, and believe it or not, Whitey gets blamed for lots of stuff too.

So what?? Stop your whining. And if you’re talking about illegal immigration, you’re right, it doesn’t matter what country you come from. Just get the hell out and come back the right way. Period.

Posted by: Silent Majority at May 5, 2006 3:33 PM
Comment #145694

womanmarine.

long walk; short pier. try it for me will you?

In your next life you will come back as one of those shrilly, yippy dogs. Im sure of it.

Posted by: b0mbay at May 5, 2006 3:34 PM
Comment #145698

I was wrong - the bar has gone even lower.

Posted by: tony at May 5, 2006 3:42 PM
Comment #145699

Actually we should blame the socialists. So should the Mexicans. Socialism and the resultant dictatorships that follow have killed more people and caused more poverty than any other political system in the history of this planet. Mexicans SHOULD be marching in the millions protesting THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT! That government has squandered more natural resources than almost any other on earth. South Korea, which is not even close to Mexico as far as natural resources has an economy that dwarfs Mexico. Mexico has the world’s 8th largest oil/gas reserves. They burn off almost as much natural gas as they export because they don’t have the technology and trained people to capture it. They limit foreign investment and participation, which would enable them to capture and sell this wasted natural gas, because they don’t want to enrich the eeeevil gringo. They export their poor because a thriving middle class would jepordize their monopolies, which the billionaire cabal that runs Mexico will not allow. All because they are not a truly free and capitalist society.

We are fools to allow them to use us like this, and the Mexicans here are fools to demand that we become more like Mexico. Where will they go for work after that happens? Canada? They don’t have any jobs, they’re socialists too.

BTW, MEXICO’S IMMIGRATION LAWS ARE MUCH MORE STRICT THAN OURS. Foreigners are not allowed to be majority owners of businesses in Mexico. Do we do that. Hell no. South Americans caught in southern Mexico are immediately deported, imprisoned or sometimes just dissapear. Why don’t we just make our laws equal to theirs if they are so great? Hmmmm? Oh that would be cruel!

Let’s let Mexico and Mexicans handle their business the way they want to and we can handle ours the way we want to. That seems fair. If they choose socialism, which at it’s core is based on petty jealousy, they should know…SOCIALISM ALWAYS FAILS. Freedom succeeds, totalitarianism fails. The judgement of history is in, and it is final. The more the US heads left, the worse things get. Sorry fellas, that’s just the way it is.

Posted by: David C. at May 5, 2006 3:45 PM
Comment #145701

“The more the US heads left, the worse things get. Sorry fellas, that’s just the way it is.”

So the drastic turn right and the massive failures in government response, explosion of the deficit, failure in our military efforts… those are all just coincidences? Our largest trade deficit with China heads towards the stratosphere - our allies are all avoiding us - our court system is getting backed up with all the Republican scandles - and without a doubt, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! These are just simple bad luck with timing… trust the right when they say STAY THE COURSE!

Don’t think so. (I miss the 90s… is it 2008 yet?)

Posted by: tony at May 5, 2006 3:51 PM
Comment #145708

tony,

It’s as if Conservatives had bad parents who never tought them about “accepting personal responsibility”, at least as it applies to themselves personaly. Every freeper I hear blames someone else for their problems. It’s never “damn did I screw up voting for that stupid Chimp,” it’s always “damn liberal traitors”, “damn illegal Mexicans”, …

Posted by: Dave at May 5, 2006 4:14 PM
Comment #145711

“What is the damage done by illegal immigrants?”

Tony - because they broke the law, period. I don’t care if you’re black, white, short, tall, skinny, fat ……. you’re not a citizen - you go home.

Imagine being able to drive two hours or so North, you get this really great wage, so much more than your last job, but you don’t have to pay taxes or insurance. It’s like getting the priviledges without the responsibility. Getting your cake and eating it too. None of us have this priviledge and it’s unfair to those of us who do follow the law and it’s like a slap in the face to those immigrants who do make an effort to come here legally.

Posted by: Lisa C. at May 5, 2006 4:19 PM
Comment #145713

This is not a simple issue;as a result, simple answers are probably useless. That the opinions do not follow party lines probably is indicative that a lot of people see different parts of the scenario.
If you do not like lawn blowers, do not figure that condemning the (possibly illegal immigrant) guy working it will make it stop. Get your community to enforce anti noise laws.
If the illegal immigrants become felons by the conservatives waving their legislative wand, it will simply make the workers here less able to fight foul conditions, sub standard wages and inhumane treatment, which will in turn give more power to the employers who abuse them in the service of profit. This is true whether the workers are from Mexico, South America, China, Vietnam, India or where ever. Who does that benefit? Think about it.
The conditions that brought or drove them here are still existant in their original countries. It is likely that the imigrants, legal or illegal will not go back to their original countries. The scale of the situation is way beyond anything law enforcement could possibly handle.
You want to make sure no ilegal immigrant gets any services? No vaccinations or health care? You do realize that an epidemic does not care whether it is infecting a citizen. You will see an increase in disease (remember the spectre of a pandemic?) from a resevoir of uncared for people.
No education? Where do you think the young people will be and do if they cannot go to school?
Realistically, what would happen to the building trade if there were not the manpower?
And, please do remember that the US government in its manifold wisdom treats illegal Cubans entirely differently.

Now, on the flip side, does it make sense to encourage people to brave the border crossing, or be packed into a shipping container, or to get on a smuggler’s boat with the goal of once they touch land they have won?

So, we need a doable approach to immigration, where it is possible for the people wishing to gain access to this country a straight forward, easy to achieve legal method to get here and work. And similarly, allow those who did sneak in and wish to stay and work towards citizenship a reasonable and feasible way to change their status from Illegal to Legal. Which is after all (assuming that racisim is not a motivation [?]), the core of the objections.
All the walls and barbed wire in the world will not change people’s desires to get to what they believe is a better chance for a decent life.
How to sell this to the terrified citizens of this country is the big question.
dana

Posted by: dana at May 5, 2006 4:20 PM
Comment #145721

Tony,
There are scandals aplenty in both parties. The Republicans in power now have veered left as if they were Democrats, or as I like to call them, Socialists. Every time we cut taxes, the economy soars, as do taxes paid to the government. Instead of being fiscally responsible, they waste it. Regardless of which party is in power.

Save your daily Kos taglines for someone who gets their news from the Colbert Report, I know better.

We have a right and a duty to defend our borders, decide who we want to let in, and fight wars to defend our country and way of life if we feel it is necessary. I only wish we would stop fighting with one hand tied behind our back. The last time we did that the war lasted 100 hours.

Mexico has that right as well. They do not have the right to export their poor to us because they are too stupid or too greedy to see the value of liberty for their people. I don’t blame Mexicans for wanting to come here, but if that wasn’t an option, they would have cleaned up THEIR government long ago.

Posted by: David C. at May 5, 2006 4:45 PM
Comment #145722

“Anyone who cares about their fellow man for reasons other than blind patriotism, that’s who”

So love of country is now blind patriotism and having respect for laws is now racist. Gotcha!

“Is that really how low the bar is set on this debate?”

How low is that Tony?
Do I place my country above all other countries? Yes!
Do I place Americans above all others? Yes!
Do they do the same? I don’t care. The opinions of foriegners mean nothing to me. Especially if they are criminals.

Posted by: kctim at May 5, 2006 4:45 PM
Comment #145731

bOmbay:

Critique the message, not the messenger.

Sorry if that’s all you have to offer to the discussion.

Posted by: womanmarine at May 5, 2006 5:04 PM
Comment #145738

Andre,

No matter how you splice it, the MAJORITY of immigrants crossing our very POROUS borders ARE MEXICANS. While many Americans didnt mind the guest worker program that brought Mexican day laborders to work our farms, WHEN they increasingly settled into our urban areas and infiltrating into suburban areas for work (that Americans CAN and will do like construction), AND use up NORE social service THAN they put in, YES you get regular folks riled up. The interesting question is, ANDRE CAN YOU ALSO ADMIT TO THE RACISM BEING INFLICTED FROM THE MEXICAN ELITE AGAINST THESE ILLEGAL ALIENS, AND THE WHOLESALE ABANDONMENT OF MEXICAN “MEZTISOS” AND “INDIANS” FROM THE WHITE MEXICAN RULING CLASS??? If Mexico were NOT a border country, the USA would never accept this kind of treatment against its people from countries in Africa or the Middle East.

Posted by: Kristy at May 5, 2006 5:39 PM
Comment #145743

Andre-

What part of “civilized discourse” do you not understand? You have no point to your rant and make it worse with the profanity and obscenities. Profanity is the linchpin of a weak mind, or argument. If our blogmeister had any sense of deceny and decorum, this diatribe would never have seen the light of day.

Your argument is weak from this standpoint: Most of us do not, repeat, do not hate Mexicans! I was born and raised in South Texas. Some of my best memories are spending time with a Mexican family that lived on our farm and worked for us. And yes, they were legal and we paid them a living wage. However, I and most Americans have a big problem with illegal immigrants. Those that want to come in but not by the front door. To allow them to do so, and to give them special privileges that legal immigrants do not get, would be a slap in the face to everyone who has come into this country following the law.


Posted by: John Back at May 5, 2006 5:54 PM
Comment #145746


If you are a fan of looking at things for what they are, then undress the problem into its componenets. We have illegal immigration in prohibitive numbers. That is bad. However, they seem to find employment without disrupting our labor market. Proof of that lies in our present unemployment rate 4.9 -5.0%. Full employment is not 0% as one would logically assume. Full employment is assumed to be between 4.1% and 6.0%. So, would it be preferable to allow say 300,000 temporary work visas to be handed each year to Mexico and other immigrant countries for an application fee equal to the cost of a smuggler (Coyote), or about $2,000.00?

I imagine that these guys would rather pay the US Consulate and take a bus into the country. This policy would allow us the luxury of prosecuting illegal immigrants and employers while appeasing the folks who are opposed to illegal immigrants for their technical violation of the law. Better yet, it would help our economy by lagally providing a source of menial labor.

There, I think I did that without insulting anyone….

Posted by: Roman Von Hapsburg at May 5, 2006 6:06 PM
Comment #145747

“Imagine being able to drive two hours or so North, you get this really great wage, so much more than your last job, but you don’t have to pay taxes or insurance. It’s like getting the priviledges without the responsibility. Getting your cake and eating it too. None of us have this priviledge and it’s unfair to those of us who do follow the law and it’s like a slap in the face to those immigrants who do make an effort to come here legally.”

Gosh - you make it all sound so nice. Ever seen the life and risk these people take? Try to have a little more respect for the human condition.


“Save your daily Kos taglines for someone who gets their news from the Colbert Report, I know better.”

Huh? Say what? Please explain… obviously I said something that got under your skin… but not sure what it was… not sure how to respond… except to say I’m not vouching for either party - more like attacking those in power now and those vouching for stupid reactions to ill-understood problems.

“How low is that Tony?
Do I place my country above all other countries? Yes!
Do I place Americans above all others? Yes!
Do they do the same? I don’t care. The opinions of foriegners mean nothing to me. Especially if they are criminals.”

Exactly my point - from the horse’s mouth. Thanks for setting the example so perfectly. (That’s how low the bar is set - and really, it seems to be acting more like a auger right now.)

Posted by: tony at May 5, 2006 6:09 PM
Comment #145766

This entire issue is simply being debated incorrectly. The problem is not and has never been illegal immigrants. The problem has always been *American* businesses and people *HIRING* illegal immigrants. The “illegal immigrant situation” is simply an example of a black market in workers in which thousands of US businesses are knowingly complicit in breaking US immigration laws. It is illegal to hire an illegal immigrant, just seldom enforced and not that expensive typically.

So, if you want to secure the borders, that’s all fine and good, but that will not stop the flow of illegal immigrants any more than it will stop the flow of illegal drugs or pollen from trees.

If the 50 states and Federal government put seriously painful fines and prison terms in place for executives and businesses hiring illegal workers, this would stop. Walmart knew it was hiring illegal immigrants through a contractor that primarily used illegals and Walmart didn’t care for one simple reason. If they get fined to the max, they will *still* have saved more money than if they had gone with a cleaning contractor that didn’t use illegals.

Put fines in place that will bankrupt any company using illegals - and now we’re talking one million to ten million per illegal and 10 to 20 years in prison per illegal. Next, put out a simple bounty for reporting employers that hire illegals wherein the person that reports them gets up to 5 percent of the total fines recovered against the offending company or individual.

In next to no time, companies would be terrified of having even one single illegal immigrant as they would know that there was a financial incentive to out the company and they would know that to be discovered would risk bankrupting the company.

This would solve the problem in a very straightforward fashion and you can use the fines to build a wall (hey, raising revenue to pay for a government expense instead of borrowing money from China, imagine that).

As far as immigration itself, we did not have any immigration laws prior to the 1870s. US immigration laws were originally passed to stem the flow of Catholics and specifically Irish Catholics so that the “social makeup of America” (i.e. protestant) wouldn’t be damaged - an argument that’s being made 130 years or so later (it was a stupid argument then and it’s stupid now as well, imho).

I think that for immigration we should, frankly, grant work permits to anyone that comes to our borders and has a job. We need to start *insourcing* cheap labor. We’re either going to have jobs leaving the US to go to cheap labor markets outside the US or we’re going to have to start insourcing more cheap labor. This does not necessarily mean that the overall US standard of living must go down. On the contrary, middle class wages have gone up over 150 percent in India in the last 3 years alone.

Additional workers spend more money and that is good for the economy. It would also allow the country to grow more rapidly. Right now, the debate on whether the Federal Reserve will raise interest rates is mainly hinged on whether or not we’re near max employment or not. If we reach a “theoretical max” on employment (the school/book number used to be 4 percent - but we don’t actually measure unemployment based on being unemployed, but rather, unemployed for less than 6 months, so this number is kind of bogus).

Anyway, with a growing work force, the federal reserve would not have to worry so much about wage based inflation an could thereby avoid the rapidity of its moves in interest rate policy. This in turn would lead to lower interest rates over time for businesses, consumer credit and housing loans.

Frankly, the US’s immigration policies are part of why US jobs are leaving the US. By limiting immigration as we have done, the US has created a limited pool of labor thereby inhibiting the rate at which the US economy can grow. Thus, our immigration laws primarily act as a government imposed limit on our economy and businesses.

The economics of the situation make it clear that a *real* conservative ought to favor *more* immigration and *laxer* immigration laws.

Since liberals favor the same things for different reasons, immigration ought to be an issue that both sides could agree about.

Instead, we have conservatives looking at the laws and saying “they’re the law” rather than actually looking at the impact and nature of the laws. This is a stark contrast to how conservatives look at other laws such as the tax code, marriage laws etc.

So,if you are a conservative, bone up a bit more on economics and you will start to understand that current US immigration laws are, for all intents and purpose, anti-free market and border on socialism in the restrictions they place on the US economy. After that epiphany, any honest conservative should be able to come to easy agreement with liberals while simply agreeing to disagree about the reasons and everyone can go away having solved a problem and feel good about it.

Problem solved.

Posted by: cbp at May 5, 2006 7:23 PM
Comment #145773

Mexicans are not American?
Yes they are. Look at a map.

As far as illegals, people cannot be illegal any more than a rock,tree or mountain goat. People are a natural occurence. People are the children of God. They may commit illegal acts of course,but to call them illegal is inaccurate and demeaning.
If you work with your hands to support your family there is one law that overshadows nearly all others. You take care of your family!
How about we cut a deal with Mexico. For every Key Lay and his ilk they take we will take a boat load of hardworking immigrants. They might go for it if we sweeten the pot with a few billion. We would still be better off.

Posted by: BillS at May 5, 2006 8:14 PM
Comment #145806

this thread is a complete flamebaitng, troll slobbering, waste of space. i agree with ohrealy.where the hell is my alka seltzer.

Posted by: RODNEY BROWN at May 5, 2006 11:08 PM
Comment #145845

I can not understand how these so called politicians of the American people have allowed 35,000,000 illegal mexicans to enter this country since 1980. We the American people should vote each and every politician that endorces any program that legalizes theses people into our country out of office. There has never been a study done of the true effects these people are having on the poor who have fought an died in wars or on our economy as a whole. These politicians of today are only concered about the rich and their pockets. If we don’t do something soon the constitution of this country will mean nothing. The Republicans are wicked as hell, and the Democrats are everything for every body. Come this November lets clear house of these politicians that vote for illegals.

Posted by: Jamar at May 6, 2006 3:51 AM
Comment #145860

CBP, thanks for your post. Now mine can be much shorter :) If conservatives are serious about immigration reform (and, as you point out, illegal aliens add a ton to our economy by providing cheap labor and whether or not this is desirable IS a legitimate issue that we should debate), all Congress has to do is make employing an illegal alien a felony. If there is already such a law on the books, they simply have to give INS the mandate and the funds to enforce it and build their precious wall. I wish they’d simply do this (targeting their anger to employers as opposed to desperate people coming over here to make a living) as opposed to employing arguments (such as the, “they don’t even speak the language” fear argument) with racial overtones…

Posted by: mike sommerkamp at May 6, 2006 9:43 AM
Comment #145866

WATCHBLOG EDITOR:

“this thread is a complete flamebaitng, troll slobbering, waste of space. i agree with ohrealy.where the hell is my alka seltzer.”

You threatened to remove people who blasted Eric for his thread: Anti_american

“Dave, dispense with the insults aimed at WB’s writers. Critique the Message, not the Messenger. This will be your only warning. Affixing names like Neotards to our volunteer writing staff will not be tolerated.

You may not like what Eric Simonson has to say, but Eric has been a long standing writer with WB enhancing its growth and readership. Critique his arguments, not him, or you will lose your comment privileges here.”

Why do you allow such comments to be tossed around here?

Posted by: tony at May 6, 2006 10:19 AM
Comment #145896

sorry about the troll thing. ive seen it used quite a lot,i made a critique of the thread, not of any posters. thank you Rodney Brown.

Posted by: RODNEY BROWN at May 6, 2006 1:30 PM
Comment #145897

Rodney -

I didn’t mean to single you out, and I support your ability to question or argue against anything on these posts… my problem is that there seems to be a bit of a inequity here. More than that - I don’t see value in putting the people who write the posts any more above the critiques than the simply bloggers.

I don’t agree with what you said - but I don’t expect you’re shocked by that… I just want to make sure that you know I was not posting to have your comments removed.

Posted by: tony at May 6, 2006 1:34 PM
Comment #145898

Andre,

In stark disagreement with many here I think your post is quite appropriate. It’s the truth. I hear it on the street often. Hatred towards Mexicans has grown greatly and I truly fear that it’s only a matter of time until the situation explodes into violence unless cooler heads prevail:

“Laine Lawless, who started a group called Border Guardians last year, sent an April 3 e-mail to Mark Martin, “SS commander” of the Western Ohio unit of the National Socialist Movement, which has 59 chapters in 30 states. It was titled, “How to GET RID OF THEM!”“

Among those recommendations:
***”Steal the money from any illegal walking into a bank or check cashing place.”

***”Make every illegal alien feel the heat of being a person without status. … I hear the rednecks in the South are beating up illegals as the textile mills have closed. Use your imagination.”

***”Discourage Spanish-speaking children from going to school. Be creative.”

***”Create an anonymous propaganda campaign warning that any further illegal immigrants will be shot, maimed or seriously messed-up upon crossing the border. This should be fairly easy to do, considering the hysteria of the Spanish language press, and how they view the Minutemen as ‘racists & vigilantes.’”

Lawless’ entire email is here (in PDF):
http://www.splcenter.org/images/dynamic/intel/LAWLESS_EMAIL_042006.pdf

KansasDem


Posted by: KansasDem at May 6, 2006 1:43 PM
Comment #145902

“Exactly my point - from the horse’s mouth. Thanks for setting the example so perfectly”

Your right Tony, my bad.
I have a hard time remembering that patriotism is bad and loving my country and my fellow Americans isn’t “cool” anymore.

Posted by: kctim at May 6, 2006 2:24 PM
Comment #145908

“I have a hard time remembering that patriotism is bad and loving my country and my fellow Americans isn’t “cool” anymore.”

And you got this from my post?

“Do they do the same? I don’t care. The opinions of foriegners mean nothing to me. Especially if they are criminals.”

That’s what I have a problem with. Very few people in this country have roots that go back more than 10 generations, yet people feel they have aboslute right to close off others from coming here and feel absolutely no empathy towards them. In other words - don’t be so harsh towards foreigners, some of them are your relatives.

And for anyone using “we here so we rule” logic - the Mexicans have been on this soil far FAR longer than anyone here calling themselves American.

Posted by: tony at May 6, 2006 3:06 PM
Comment #145913

kctim,

You don’t have to hate America to care about non-Americans. Love of Country and Love of Mankind are not mutually exclusive.

Loving your country isn’t bad. Loving your country to the extent that you automatically disdain anyone who isn’t from your country IS bad.

The opinions of foriegners mean nothing to me.

That’s not “love of country” — that’s blind patriotism.

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at May 6, 2006 3:53 PM
Comment #145917

Rob -

In the hands of the neo-cons, Patrotism has become the new racism.

Posted by: tony at May 6, 2006 4:44 PM
Comment #145923

cbp,
As far as what the US should do, I couldn’t agree more. Without the demand, the supply dries up. The market ALWAYS rules.

Posted by: David C. at May 6, 2006 5:36 PM
Comment #145931

Andre Hernandez,

You are correct that some people have racist motives, and want to blame everything on illegal aliens.

To do so is unfair.

You are justified to be angry about that.

But, hopefully, the anger does not obscure the other numerous U.S. citizens that are also justified in being upset with the burden on many systems (eduation, healthcare, E.R., welfare, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, law enforcement, CDC, insurance, voting, and prison systems) amounting to about $70 billion per year (nationwide).

So, there are real problems stemming from massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration (no matter where it occurs) that U.S. citizens are very justified to be concerned about.

But, this entire issue is not only the illegal immigrants fault.
Not at all.
Not since the U.S. practically invited illegal aliens here (and they come from all over the world) by:

  • not enforcing the existing laws,

  • by allowing greedy corporations to break the existing laws,

  • by allowing federal government to create conflicting laws that push burdens onto the states,

  • and voters are responsible too for allowing all of it and not holding their elected officials accountable for ignoring the laws and catering to greedy employers.

Mostly, corrupt government and greedy employers are the primary problem, but the less culpable U.S. citizens are getting stuck with the bill. So, most U.S. citizens should not be punished, and are will within their rights to demand secure borders and an end put to the abuse of the U.S. citizens’ tax funded systems.

Hence, compassion is required and practical too.

Not amnesty though.

Illegal aliens must get in line behind those already in line to obtain citizenship. Unfortunately, the line is already long, and most will not receive citizenship.

Forced deportation is not right or practical.

Thus, the U.S., in my opinion should provide pre-paid travel and sufficient funds (e.g. $500 per person) to provide illegal aliens a way to return to their homelands.

For 12+ million illegal aliens, that could conceivably cost about $24 to $48 billion.

However, that is still less than the current net losses (estimated at $70 billion per year).

Simultaneously, the U.S. should secure its borders, and enforce the laws that make it illegal to employ illegal aliens. Those with valid Green Cards, visas, etc. can stay of course as long as the law allows. But employers must start paying those employees a fair and legal wage.

The U.S. can not continue to absorb millions of illegal aliens every year. Not only that, but the U.S. is not obligated to do so. The U.S. is well within its sovereign rights to secure its borders, if it so wishes. If it does not, people from all over the world will come here, and before long, there will be nothing but chaos, crime, societal disorder, resentments, racism, and the classic dysfunction that always accompanies massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration.

Amnesty won’t work, unless all of the other existing laws are enforced, and the borders are secured. Otherwise, the illegal aliens that receive amnesty will do the same thing after the amnesty of 1986. They will invite and harbor more illegal aliens, and the problem will multiply as it quadrupled from 1986 to 2006.

So, whose rights prevail?

Do the rights of foreigners, that illegally trespass our borders, trump the rights of a sovereign nation to secure their own border?

Does the U.S. have the right to secure its own borders? Yes.

Is the U.S. for the public use of the rest of the world? No.

Should the U.S. tax payers have to continue to pay the burden on education, welfare, healthcare, Medicaid, Medicare, Medicaid, law enforcement, insurance, voting, and prison systems? No.

Must U.S. citizens allow people from all over the world to immigrate legally or illegally? No.

Doesn’t any sovereign nation have the right to secure its own borders? Yes.

Is the U.S. obligated to allow illegal aliens to continue to flood into the country (1 million per year)? No.

Thus, the U.S. is justified to secure its own borders and ask that illegal aliens leave, and the U.S. should be practical and provide the financial means to do so (pre-paid travel and $500 per person to make the journey and get started back home). Is that not fair ?

Posted by: d.a.n at May 6, 2006 6:15 PM
Comment #145948

I do not remember anyone blaming Mexicans in regards to this immigration mess. What almost all Americans despise is ILLEGALs, no matter where they come from and the results that come of them.

The 20 million + that snuck across the border and invaded our country must be turned back. The border must be secure. Our health care system is in jeopardy for many reasons, one of which is the burden of 20 million non paying illegals. Our school system is in jeopardy because of many issues, but one of the biggest issues is millions upon millions of illegals using our schools without payment.

The only people profiting from their presence is the ruthless and unfair businessman that skims the profit from the slaves and dumps their broken bodies on the taxpayers, the same businessman that avoids the overhead from hiring an American citizen, in short, a sell out.

Posted by: Kuka_kid at May 6, 2006 9:32 PM
Comment #145972

illegals, that is the whole problem. If eleven million chines or osma and his clan come walking in im sure you will just say hell there here to cut the grass.I have had to work like a illegal with no benifits and for less pay because of them. And now medicare and ssi are broke for all the women that come here illegaly and have kids that I support with my hard earned taxes. Now say Im a kkk or a raceist I am a hard working american that has obeyed the law took responsablity for my life and payed more than my share of this child support that i didn’t have sex with any of these illegales. so if you support these illgales pay there way and make sure i have my ssi and medicare.

Posted by: gotn at May 7, 2006 12:07 AM
Comment #145989

Leviticus
19:33-34, “When an alien lives with you in your land,
do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be
treated as one of your native-born. Love him as
yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD
your God.”
Look to the bible for redemption and the Statute of liberty for our values “Proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof.”
- Leviticus, XXV, 10.
Inscribed on the Liberty Bell, Independence Hall, Philadelphia, Pa. The original source of the quotation is Leviticus, third book of the Old Testament. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness …
- Declaration of Independence as originally written by Thomas Jefferson, 1776 Poem by Emma Lazarus written in 1883 to help fundraising for the Pedestal:
(Bronze plaque with the poem was mounted in the base of the Statue in 1903)

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
with conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
a mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame,
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
with silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

Posted by: domingo at May 7, 2006 2:18 AM
Comment #146007

Another thought… As much as Republicans complain about attempts to raise the minimum wage, raising the minimum wage would be another way to dry up the demand for cheap, illegal immigrant labor…

Posted by: mike sommerkamp at May 7, 2006 10:45 AM
Comment #146012

Ilegal or legal, Native or Naturalized, we are all human beings. Everyone should be accorded basic Rights and Respect.
I am not familiar with any statement that indicates that limits the protection of the bill of rights to legal citizens.
IF THE EMPLOYERS of illegals were prosecuted, fined and jailed, for employing illegals. the illegals would go home or to Canada. They would not stay in the US.
IF the minimum wage was raised to $15. per hour and tied to the rate of inflation / cost of living, there would be no jobs that most americans would turn their nose up on.
IF we had a medicare operated national healthcare program covering the entire population, to include prescription drugs and health care equip.
If the US can afford a 2 trillion war, and IF the US can afford a military budget that exceeds the the accumulated total of ALL military budgets in the world, the US can afford a decent living minimum wage, including healthcare.
IF the US can put a man on the Moon, the US can build and operate an honest and accurate voting machine, with a paper trail.

Oh Well Que Sera, Sear

Posted by: Charlie Hacker at May 7, 2006 11:17 AM
Comment #146027

Illegal immigrants may ask for legalization, but they should not demand it as a right, since they are here illegally and have broken many laws in the process (employment, ID, insurance, etc). Remember, they put themselves in this situation. If the illegals want to ask for legalization, then they should do it the right way and with proper respect to the country and to its citizens. There request should be considered mainly on the basis forgiveness and compansion. To those applicable illegals that is, not to the criminals or the freeloaders. It’s like someone who settled on your ranch and use your facilities without your permission, and should not demand the right to stay there and say, I have trimmed some bushes and cleared some cow dung for you while I’m here. Again, their request should be considered, no guarantees. If we were to grant any legalization, then we must also secure our border. The Amnesty of 86 without securing the border was a total failure. It only exacerbated the problem much worse. What ever the case might be, the border needs to be secured. Otherwise, we might as well tell everyone they can come in as they pleased, and we have 100 million more undocumented in no time. Any country with the enormous inflows of illegals would want to control it. Realistically, we just cannot except everyone who wants to come here. By the way, the Statue of Liberty is a symbol representing freedom, not legal or illegal immigration. However, legal immigration is fine since this is what the country have allowed and have control.

Posted by: Troy at May 7, 2006 2:13 PM
Comment #146029

Personally, I don’t think granting a general sweeping amnesty would help in any case, such as in ‘86. On a limited, case by case situation, maybe. A general amnesty would provide a poweful magnet to attract more illegals and further burden border enforcement. Also, trying to securing the border is not enough. We need to also eliminate/trim the incentives (employment, education, health care, etc).

Posted by: Troy at May 7, 2006 2:26 PM
Comment #146042

Yeah,but I think that legislation should mainly affect employers and collect fines and write up violations so they are aware that big brother is watching over them.those people who help our SoCal economy (mexican nationals) who boycotted on the 1st still dont get it dont f***** wave that mexican flag purchase a cheap stars &stripes from the DT Garment District Stoopidz!!!!!I still love and respect all the hard working and honest ones only.ALL U criminals Killaz, lasy asses g\et the hell out before it turns into ‘92!!!

Posted by: peter at May 7, 2006 4:33 PM
Comment #146048

I thought this was interesting:

http://www.matt.org/Welcome/tabid/70/Default.aspx

I realize that the founder is Republican and a friend of the Bush family, but regardless, it shows a real effort towards getting “everyone” involved in finding a real solution to the Mexican-American Immigration problem.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at May 7, 2006 5:53 PM
Comment #146052

Of course yes, punish the employers that knowingly hire illegal aliens (or look the other way) in order to eliminate the job incentive. As for President Fox, he should understand the problem we have with the enormous, uncontrolled illegal immigration we have. Take a look at how Mexico deals with it illegal aliens below.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1859481

The Mexican government encourages the transfer of its underclass to the U.S. and to reaps the return benefits. Mexico should be a rich country if it weren’t for its very corrupt government. Corruption on all levels. Its people are also partly to blame. No matter how much the U.S. tries to accommodate and accept illegal aliens, the problems only gets worse. People there should start to make some real basic changes, and they have the power to do so.

Posted by: Troy at May 7, 2006 6:24 PM
Comment #147345

Andre, you have a great point. Your sarcasm is somewhat confusing to new readers, I’m sure. Our (lousy) economy would be in much worse shape without migrant workers, both legal and ilegally in this country. The cost of agriculture products alone would skyrocket if Americans had to harvest farmed foods. What I would like to know is who is going to take over all of the manual labor jobs, without migrant workers, because I’m sure as hell not going to pick strawberries at 4.50 an hour. Who is going to wash and dry my car for the great price that I get.
The self righteous corporations that ship jobs overseas are to blame for our unemployment rates. The idiot in the white house doesn’t have the guts to uncap our huge reserves to drive oil prices down. Forget being a leader, him and his daddy are too busy cashing in on us poor suckers who work for a living. We need to blame the jackass who is blaming the Mexicans,

Posted by: Daniel Hernandez at May 11, 2006 5:38 PM
Comment #147986

To say the U.S. would crumble or be worse off in any way at all, without illegal aliens is not true by any accurate measurement.

History also does not support the belief that any benefits come from massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration. On the contrary, there are many problems stemming from massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration.

This is not a statement rooted in racism, color, nationality, or ethnicity. It is simply a statement of facts about the problems with illegal aliens and the problems stemming from massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration.

Also indicated below, and supported by various reports and studies, the net losses to U.S. citizens from the following add up to at least $45 billion:

  • increased crime rates;

  • burden on education systems;

  • burden on healthcare systems;

  • burden on hospital systems; 84 hospitals closed/closing in California;

  • burden on welfare systems; 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare;

  • burden on Social Security system;

  • burden on Medicaid system;

  • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

  • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

  • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

  • burden on prison systems; 29% of those in state and federal prisons (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;

  • displaced U.S. citizens receiving unemployment and welfare;

  • voter fraud; burden on voting systems;

The U.S. has 299 million citizens.
There are about 12 million illegal aliens.
But, only about 55% of illegal aliens pay federal income taxes.
That leaves 6.6 million illegal aliens that pay federal income taxes.
But, only 67% of illegal aliens are employed (the rest are children or elderly).
That leaves 4.422 million employed illegal aliens that pay income taxes.
Now, let’s assume illegal aliens average $12 per hour for 5.5 days per week (287 days per year). That comes to $27,552 per year.
After a standard IRS deduction of $5,000 , that leaves $22,552 per year.
The highest tax rate (filing single) is 13.3647% .
Therefore, that is $3014 in federal income taxes withheld per year (using 2005 tax tables).
And, Social Security and Medicare taxes add up tp 15.3% of gross income.
That includes the 7.65% paid by the employer, and 7.65% paid by the employee.
Therefore, that amounts to $4215 for 15.5% for Social Security and Medicare taxes. That is $18.64 billion for Social Security and Medicare taxes.
However, other estimates say that it is actually only about $7 billion.
Nevertheless, let’s continue with the much higer $18.64 billion.
Therefore, the highest estimate of total taxes paid = $7229 = $2014 + 4215 .
That is $31.97 billion per year = ($4.422 million * $7229) for all federal taxes.
Note: none of that even included dependent deductions.

Now lets assume the value of their work is at least $2 per hour.
Thus, the value of their work is $24.08 billion per year.

Unfortunately, the tax payers do not realize the benefit of the value of that work. Greedy employers of illegal aliens reap most of the profit and benefit from the under-paid/under-class. That is why a huge jump in prices is a myth, and even if it were true, the net losses would still exceed net benefits.

Thus, the net value to the U.S. is $56.05 billion = $31.97 billion + $24.08 billion.

However, the net costs to U.S. tax payers is estimated at $70 billion (after taxes are deducted). In 1997 (nine years ago), Dr. Donald Huddle, Professor Emeritus of Economics at Rice University, found that total costs were as high as $139 billion, and net costs (after adjusting for taxes and other ) were $69 billion in 1997. So, $87 billion in 2006 is a very conservative estimate, since Huddle also did not include the cost of displaced workers, crime, and disease.

Therefore, let’s use the smaller estimate of net costs (before deducting taxes) of $101.97 billion (i.e. $70 billion + $31.97 billion for taxes), which agrees closely with many estimates. At fairus.org, the estimate of costs is $87 billion per year, but that is before deducting the value of all federal taxes, which was generously estimated above at $31.97 billion. $31.97 billion is really over estimated, but let’s assume taxes paid are actually that high.

Therefore, the total cost after deducting taxes and value of work is $45.92 billion = ($101.97 billion - $31.97 billion taxes received - $24.08 billion value of work).

That value of $45.92 billion is very close to the $45 billion estimated by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (fairus.org) which stated:

the net expense to the taxpayer from illegal immigration would currently be at least $45 billion.

And, that $45 billion of net losses to U.S. citizens does not even include the estimates for 2.3 million displaced U.S. workers, unemployment benefits and welfare for displaced workders, tax deductions for dependents, cost of crime, and disease.

Many studies place the estimated net losses to the U.S. at double that (ranging from $70 billion to $139 billion). Even if it is only $45 billion, that is not an insignificant amount. That amounts to about $1 billion per state per year.
But, we know some states are impacted drastically more. Conservative estimates of total losses for California alone, are estimated at $10.5 billion.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 13, 2006 8:06 PM
Comment #148231

Obviously d.a.n. has GW’s statistic sheets in hand. Obviously d.a.n. doesnt realize that Christopher Columbus was the first illegal alien in this country and your’re right d.a.n. Ever since 1492 this country has been totally screwed up.

“Greedy employers of illegal aliens reap most of the profit and benefit from the under-paid/under-class. That is why a huge jump in prices is a myth, and even if it were true, the net losses would still exceed net benefits.”

Does d.a.n. mean like Wal-Mart?

Get real, your dinner on the table would come to about $22.50 per person if you had to pay good Americans like yourself to pick the veggies.

Posted by: Daniel Hernandez at May 15, 2006 1:46 AM
Comment #148308

Daniel Hernandez,

Please provide you’re own calculations if you have any to refute those above.

BTW, did you not know that George Bush wants amnesty? George Bush is really pro-illegal alien. Actually, both Republicans and Democrats want votes and cheap labor. So, don’t get too worked up. Congress will forget about this entire subject soon after the elections in November. Congress, as usual, is merely using it as a way to divide voters, whip ‘em all up into a frenzy, win half the votes (as usual), and secure their incumbency for another term, while convincing voters to send them billions in campaign donations and re-elect them no matter how worthless they really are.

That data is from multiple corroborated sources, studies, reports, and editorials.
You don’t have to believe it, but those are the facts.

The losses far out-weigh the benefits.
The $45 billion in losses is after adding up the value of the labor and taxes paid (and that was based on an average $12 per hour).
The estimates are very generous, and still, the losses exceed $45 billion.
And, that net loss of $45 billion does not even include the massive losses due to crime, disease, job displacements, and hospital closures.
If illegal aliens were a net benefit, nobody would be complaining.

As for Walmart, that has more to do with low cost labor in China, than illegal aliens in the U.S., and the lower prices are not that much lower than Target, K-Mart, Cost-Co, etc. There is plenty of competition. It is wishful thinking to believe the U.S. will crumble without illegal aliens, when the net losses to U.S. citizens exceed $45 billion per year (and climbing fast).

Posted by: d.a.n at May 15, 2006 12:02 PM
Comment #148543

d.a.n.
anyone who has taken first year accounting or marketing has a basic understanding of statistics and their purpose. Spending several years in the marketing field and creating statistics for several companies, I also understand that they are created to basically convince anyone of just about anything. It only depends on who creates them to convince someone that there is almost scientific evidence that they are correct about something, no matter how right or wrong they are. If you intend to use statistics as an argument, you would probably be better off throwing them at someone who doesn’t understand the purpose of statistics and who is also ignorant of how they work.

Posted by: Daniel Hernandez at May 16, 2006 3:26 AM
Comment #149759

“In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man’s becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American…There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile…We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language…and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

Posted by: love it or leave at May 20, 2006 3:06 PM
Comment #157637

you people make me laugh. You are bleeding hearts for lawbreakers and every person who wants to tear down the fabric of our country and moral values (what are moral values you say? I KNOW you don’t have a clue). Any crossgendered whack job has your “compassion” at their stress and emotional situation….. bull….
what about those of us who are trying to raise our kids to be good people with morals given to us by God, not by man? To uphold and defend the laws of our country? To hell with us right?
With all of the lies told about the effects of the Mexican Invasion its no wonder most people are confused. They are not just taking jobs “no american will do”….. There must be a whole lot more vegetables to pick than I thought….
NO…. they are bringing down ALL WAGES…. in ALL INDUSTRIES….. my kids can’t even find a summer job here in Houston because of it…
so lets let them just pour over the border by the thousands each day…. you people that advocate that are idiots….
why can’t mexico fix their rathole of a country for their own peoples benefit? They want their poor to come here and send money there…. that doesn’t have a detrimental effect on us either does it? IDIOTS…. WAKE UP

Posted by: john crawford at June 14, 2006 1:36 PM
Comment #167974

ALL THIS TALK ABOUT MEXICANS AND ILLEGALS GO BACK WHERE YOU COME FROM. BUT, STOP AND THINK WE ARE TWO COUNTRY THAT BORDER EACH OTHER. THERE ARE OVER 300,OOO AMERICANS LIVING IN MEXICO. RETIRED, BUSINESS PEOPLE,VACTIONEERS, CRIMINALS AND SOME—-TIRED OF AMERICA(TO YOUR SURPRISE TIRED OF AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE). RETIREES THAT LIVE ON S.S CANNOT AFFORD MEDICAL CARE IN AMERICA. I LIVE A COMFORTABLE LIFE IN MIGUEL ALLENDE, LAKE CHAPALA, CANCUN, PUERTO VALLARTA ETC. YES, THE LAW IS DIFFERENT IN MEXICO THAT LAND CANNOT BE OWNED BY OTHER THAN MEXICAN CITIZENS. BUT AFTER GUADALUPE—HILDAGO TREATY ARE AMERICAN SURPRISED, BUT THEN 99% OF AMERICANS, DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THE LIES.
WHAT I AM SAYING THE BASHING OF MEXICANS IN
AMERICA, THE UNWELCOME SIGNS ARE STARTING TO COME UP IN MEXICO.
JUST REMEMBER MEXICO IMPORT OIL TO USA, FOR A PRICE CHEAPER THAN OPEC. USA NEEDS MEXICO MORE THAN U THINK. MAYBE MEXICO SURE START SELLING OIL TO CHINA, THEN USA WOULD GET UPSET.

Posted by: ART at July 16, 2006 6:54 AM
Comment #183815

Illegal aliens, from any country, are not welcome in my country. Legal aliens, yes, you are welcome. It’s that simple.

Posted by: STEVE at September 25, 2006 8:08 PM
Comment #184876

hey Andre whatevers i dont like you gay ass poem i think you should not be writing those kinds of thing pretty much i think you are mexican so f*** you and by the way i am 100% mexican ans proud of it too

Posted by: maria at September 28, 2006 6:27 PM
Comment #199780

STOP TALKING STUFF HATERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: ana at December 19, 2006 10:21 AM
Comment #199781

mexicans 100 percent

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Comment #375166

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