Democrats & Liberals Archives

American Revival

Yesterday, I discussed Kevin Phillips’ pessimistic prediction of America’s decline. Yesterday too, we witnessed the March of the Immigrants by an estimated million people across the USA. There are many opinions about this event, both pro and con. But I believe that this March may present a turning point. We as a society have the opportunity to take ourselves off the mean path we have been following - that is exacerbating our decline - and to plant ourselves onto the compassionate road that may lead to American revival.

Americans have always been competitive fortune seekers, but also upholders of fairness and tolerance. However, 9/11 changed us - and not for the better. Since that catastrophe, we have been turning progressively more aggressive, more belligerent, more hateful, more mean. It shows up in the political polarization, the religious wars, the economic battles and the social discords.

Republicans in the House brought this meanness to a climax when they came up with a bill that would make being an illegal immigrant a felony. Yes, in response to constituents, they lowered it to a misdemeanor. The important point to remember, however, is that they want to make the 11-12 million people here illegally criminals.

The Republican leaders overreached. They were so consumed with self-righteous "patriotism" and disdain of immigrants, they produced a bill that awakened the passive immigrants. Up to this point, immigrants were afraid to speak up about all the injustices they encountered. They lived in constant terror of being deported. This bill, however, tore away their inhibitions, emboldened them to action and made them work in their own defense. A slumbering giant awoke.

Spontaneously, millions of immigrants marched in March against this unAmerican bill. And it worked. Republicans are trying to make the bill less mean. And the rest of us are beginning to see more clearly the point of view of the so-called illegals.

As soon as the immigrants realized they have a voice, they decided to march again, this time May 1, to demonstrate to all that they are interwoven into the fabric of our society. The march has been mischaracterized by some as a strike. It was nothing of the sort; it was to show that immigrants are people like you and me. Some called it a boycott. Again, wrong; they had nothing against their employers and only wanted everyone to see that they are part of our society.

Extremely few business owners complained. As a matter of fact, many businesspeople closed their shops and encouraged their employees to attend the march. They know how hard these "illegals" work.

Some called the marchers criminals. They are in favor of upholding the law, they say. I'm wondering which transgression of the law is worse: entering the U.S. without permission to find a job or living in the U.S. and employing an illegal? The chances are pretty good that those doing the loud screaming about illegals hire illegal gardeners or nannys, and they probably visit restaurants they know hire illegals. The hypocrisy is thick.

I view this May 1 march as a trigger for changing America's direction. The marchers have suggested to us that we halt our arrogant belligerence, hatred and meanness and substitute kind friendliness, love and compassion. The immigrants are displaying true Americanism with their peaceful demonstration, and we would do well to emulate them with a response that is equally American. Let's devise a way that keeps them part of diverse America and at the same time protects our borders.

Kevin Phillips is pessimistic about America's future because we have ruined what is best about America in our pursuit of oil, credit and the pure truth. Perhaps we need an infusion of new blood and new ideas, something that we can do by being generous and by truly absorbing immigrants into our society. Maybe this will turn us away from our aggressive stance on almost everything. Maybe it will put us on a new path towards a revived America.

We are tired of all the name calling, lies, threats, character smears, injustices, intolerant behaviors and hatreds that saturate our society. By showing compassion to a new minority group that has had no representation up until now, we can turn America around. We can make America what it once was: a beacon of hope for everyone. Then we will have, not a decline, but an American revival.

Posted by Paul Siegel at May 2, 2006 6:12 PM
Comments
Comment #144907

Paul, MAJOR LOGIC FLAW !

You said: “The important point to remember, however, is that they [Republican House of Rep.] want to make the 11-12 million people here illegally criminals.”

The fact of their presence here illegally, by definition, makes them criminals. You can’t blame Republicans for calling the sky blue or water wet.

Posted by: David R. Remer at May 2, 2006 7:05 PM
Comment #144912

Paul

ummmm..they were illegal immigrants ,not legal immigrants marching yesterday…world of difference my friend…rule of law and all that….

Posted by: sicilian eagle at May 2, 2006 7:29 PM
Comment #144913

We are tired of all the name calling, lies, threats, character smears, injustices, intolerant behaviors and hatreds that saturate our society. Posted by Paul Siegel at May 2, 2006 06:12 PM

They not only saturate our society, but are encouraged by politicians, to suit their own political ends, who claim to be religious on alternate days.

Immigrants will help renew our society in the same process that has gone on for centuries. First generation immigrants speak foreign languages, second generation are bilingual, and the third generation have forgotten the language of origin.

Some people claim that tougher border enforcement has caused the current problem, by making people more determined to stay here once they get across the border, rather than travelling back and forth, as they did previously.

Posted by: ohrealy at May 2, 2006 7:30 PM
Comment #144915

Most of the marchers yesterday were NOT illegals. Most of the illegals were still on their jobs, because they can’t afford to skip days. We sometimes forget that most of the latino population is as legal as you or I. Actually, sometimes I worry about YOU…

Posted by: Marysdude at May 2, 2006 7:45 PM
Comment #144918

400,000 people were supposed to be at the rally in Grant Park yesterday in Chicago, including Cardinal George. I can guarantee you he is not an illegal immigrant. I agree with Marysdude that most illegals went to work. I like the fact that the May Day workers strike was bugging the right wingers.

Posted by: ohrealy at May 2, 2006 7:54 PM
Comment #144919

you have say this about David R Remer. he is a dam good umpire of politics,he does not get them all. but he gets it!. and now he will go over to the right and call them out.

Posted by: RODNEY BROWN at May 2, 2006 7:57 PM
Comment #144921

David, you are more than correct.

I would like to also point out that being conservative on this issue does not mean that you are anti-immigration. We have immigration laws that allow for just that, and anyone who follows those laws should be welcome with open arms. The quotas for legals can and probably should be raised.

Illegal immigration cannot and should not be allowed for many reasons, some of which were spelled out in the preamble of the Constitution:

1. Provide for the common defense- Can a nation be truely sovereign if it cannot/will not enforce its own laws and borders? I also would like to point out that the Mexican army has penetrated the United States border(up to 20 miles over the border) several times in the last decade and a half.
2. Promote general welfare- The rates for diseases including TB are much higher in border counties and on the rise. The medical screening done for legals alone should be enough of a reason to stop illegal immigration.
3. Ensure domestic tranquility- A million people in the streets, some of which were clashing with police, and all with the goal to disrupt American life.

Although I understand why someone would like to come here to enjoy the greatest country in the world, practice prosperity and freedom and at the same time be able to support their family back home, that should NOT excuse the violation of American law. It does more harm than good and therefore should be dealt with.

I personally do not think that the House Resolution went far enough. IMHO the solution lies in both supply and demand. We must control(not close) the border and make it unpleasent during the stay.

I think that all benefits excluding life saving medical treatment should be denied to illegals and I believe that anyone hiring illegal immigrants should be charged as accomplices, and the punnishment should be severe, perhaps more severe than the illegal immigrants face. Dealing with one half of the equasion and not the other will not solve the problem and IMHO the problem is both real and serious.

Posted by: submariner at May 2, 2006 8:31 PM
Comment #144922

As usual…
The over-reaching and exaggeration has blossomed from the buzzard…

I especially loved the “pure truth” line…

“We have ruined what is best about America in our pursuit of…pure truth”

You let the philsophical cat out of the bag…
But, Yes…Let’s continue with;

Half-truth
Twisted-truth
No-truth
Manipulated-truth
False-truth

Now it all makes sense…

Posted by: Cliff at May 2, 2006 8:41 PM
Comment #144926

An American revival would take attitude changes, especially on the Hill, that Americans are not going to make. Were people outraged by the lies and half-truths of the war? Were they outraged by the gamut of Bush & Cos. policies? Pre-emptive war? Torture camps? Abugrab?

No. But they were, and are, outraged by the price of gas.

Iraq will not hold together. And though it may be decades in the making, we can already see the decline of the United States.

Posted by: ra at May 2, 2006 9:01 PM
Comment #144929

Why does everyone insist on debating the immigration issue as though the only people immigrating into this country were/are Hispanic?

Why does everyone insist on the major fix for this is to secure the Southern border? (It was the Northern border where a potential terrorist was caught.)

And yes (DUH) being an illegal immigrant does speak to breaking the law, but the difference (and it’s a HUGE difference) is that the REPs want to make these people FELONS.

Posted by: tony at May 2, 2006 9:09 PM
Comment #144934

And felons they should be. I am against illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants should stand in line just like the legal immigrants have to. It amazes me to hear someone say “but some of them have been here for years” Well then why haven’t they at least started the legalization process. The main issue is this, by allowing amnesty we will be overrun within 20 years from all parts of the world. Think real hard about that.

Posted by: j2t2 at May 2, 2006 9:48 PM
Comment #144937

Marysdude

Not to worry about me but doesn’t it get lonely out there on the hyper-left singing in Spanish and all?

So they are not illegal,right?

Maybe we should open our borders to all,right?

I mean this is the land of the free,right?You know,roads paved of gold and all,right?

How about relocating Dafur here…we could have another Cuban boat thing,right?Better still,if we bring the Sunni from Iraq here,that would be good too,right?I have an idea….maybe the left should move to Mexico..nice climate…legalized pot….I think you have to have a visa or something to move to Mexico though,so I take that back….wait a minute…you can sing the Mexican nationial anthem in English there…no..I forgot that it’s illegal to sing that in any language except Spanish….We can do a reverse swap then…that’s it….Dean…Kerry…and Micheal Moore there…100,000 illegals here…they couldn’t be that dumb to go for that deal……can they??

Posted by: sicilianeagle at May 2, 2006 10:00 PM
Comment #144939

David is technically right, but we all know the gist of Paul’s post is right. I am in awe of May 1, when (was it millions) stood up and called Republicans on their racism. If only our anti-war demonstrations were that passionate!

In other news the $100 gas rebate has been all but removed as a proposal, with Republicans coming out of the woodwork to say it’s nothing but a silly attempt to buy votes at the expense of this country. What’s the difference between this and Bush’s great idea to give everyone a tax refund earlier? Simply this: People called their Reps and told them they weren’t buying it this time.

We need to take back control of this government gone wild and call in for each and every issue until sanity is restored.

And when we finally hold a rally called “Let’s go down there and impeach this turkey ourselves” we all need to go to Washington. I expect, no demand, that half the country come.

Posted by: Max at May 2, 2006 10:05 PM
Comment #144940

“The fact of their presence here illegally, by definition, makes them criminals. You can’t blame Republicans for calling the sky blue or water wet.”

All those criminal mexicans, were Americans invited to stay permanently or erect bases in Iraq or Afghanistan? they’re not there illegally are they;
how many mexican or any foreign bases are there in this country? the US has over 700 in foreign soil.
stop killing iraq

Posted by: hasan at May 2, 2006 10:05 PM
Comment #144945

Paul:

You come across as a very nice man. You want to be kind to terrorists, and kind to illegal immigrants. And of course the republicans are wrong for calling illegal people felons. How dare they!!

My mother and three of my grand parents immigrated to this country. It was hard for them.

I have a solution that is sort of like David’s.

1. Secure the boarder no matter what it takes.

2. Develope a secure system that identifies workers.

3. Require employers to provide healthcare for these temporary workers.

4. Make sure we do not spend Social Service money on them except to save their life.

5. We should only allow healthy people to receive temporary work status.

6. Make employers felons who hire illegal aliens.

The hope of this is that there would suddenly be two classes of aliens, illegal and legal. THe illegals would be “second class”, unless they wanted to go back across the boarder and come throught he correct way.

The last thing we should do is allow them to become citizens. If we ever do that in a few years we will have the same exact problem over again.

I am for high fences with big gates.

Craig

Posted by: Craig Holmes at May 2, 2006 10:21 PM
Comment #144950

I miss the days when the “America for Americans” Movement had real commitment. Back then, people cared more for principles than profit. They were real patriots who turned away customers in the name of America. They were real men.

I remember it like yesterday. Walking in the neighborhood, stores from one end of the block to another.

…and on each store window were the words, “Irish need not Apply”.

I always believed that they were right and the corruption of our values were caused by not upholding these values. Now look where we are.

Posted by: Aldous at May 2, 2006 10:49 PM
Comment #144956

The issue of immigration is a distraction.

It’s a sideshow. Is it an issue? Sure. Is this the most important issue, right now? Should this be a priority? Not even close.

Today it was announced that a top Al Qaida guy, ‘an aide of Bin Laden,’ was captured last November. Guess where he was captured?

Perhaps you’d guess Iran. After all, isn’t Iran the biggest supporter of international terrorism?
Well, no.

Where was the terrorist captured? The answer is- take a wild guess- Pakistan. In fact, most captures of Al Qaida terrorists have been- in what country?- yes, that’s right. Pakistan.

But Iran might develop a nuclear weapon in 10 years or so!

That’s true. It’s possible. Meanwhile, Pakistan has the bomb today. Right now. While the dictator, Musharref, cooperates with the US, the Pakistani intelligence service has always been sympathetic to Al Qaida.

Meanwhile, the Kurds are maneuvering to make Kirkuk & its oil revenues a political part of Kurdistan. That would be fine, except that several hundred thousand Turkomen live around Kirkuk. The ‘kurdification’ of Kirkuk is unacceptable to the Turks- and we haven’t even started talking about the huge oil reserves around Kirkuk. The Turks have been mixing it up with the Kurds along the border, continuing their decades long conflict, one which has already killed tens of thousands (mostly Kurds); and the Iranians have also been reporting conflicts along that border with Kurdish forces.

The war is spreading, and I don’t think it can be stopped.

Immigration? Interesting sideshow.

Posted by: phx8 at May 2, 2006 11:14 PM
Comment #144959

Aldous

I always believed that they were right and the corruption of our values were caused by not upholding these values. Now look where we are.

I am not sure what your point is. They being the Irish, the people who wanted only to buy american? The americans who allowed the Irish to immigrate? I am not sure who is on first.

Craig

Posted by: Craig Holmes at May 2, 2006 11:29 PM
Comment #144964

Anybody see this one yet???

http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty149.htm

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at May 2, 2006 11:56 PM
Comment #144966


We are all immigrants or desidents of immigrants. The difference is legality.

Posted by: jlw at May 3, 2006 12:02 AM
Comment #144971


Do we need most of these immigrants crossing our southern border? Probably so.

Should they do it legally? Yes, if not, why shouldn’t anyone violate any law they disagree with any time they want to?

Should we make them felons? I don’t think so. Everyone wants a better life for themselves and their families.

Should we make the employers felons? Yes, I think we should.

Posted by: jlw at May 3, 2006 12:11 AM
Comment #144977

se,

Who gave you that wedgie? You mentioned that those marchers were illegals. I just pointed out that most of the illegals could not afford to take off from work to march. Marchers were mostly legal citizens of latino descent or sympathizers to their cause. Did that hurt your feelings?

Our neighborhood recently was attacked by twisters and hailstorms. Yesterday there were several roofs being replaced. Most of the roofers were latino. I did not take a census to find out if they were legals or not, but it stands to reason that the only folks who could afford to march yesterday would be the ones with full time jobs that pay above minimum wage.

If you have an argument with that reasoning…bring it on! Oops, Cheney/Bush has already used that line.

Posted by: Marysdude at May 3, 2006 12:29 AM
Comment #144983

So many of you Republicans still refuse to understand the current proposal - to give these people the opportunity to EARN citizenship while creating NEW TOUGH laws for illegals and the people that hire them. They are only guilty of wanting the American dream.

Instead you talk about “amnesty”, a wall across America, deporting all of them, throwing them in jail - why not shuttle them to the moon? It’s as ridiculously unfeasable an idea and it’s just as likely economically to happen.

You’ve become the party of high gullibility, fantasy, and ultra-paranoia. Everyone’s out to get you all the time: all the news, all foriegners, everybody. In six short years you’ve brought this country to its knees, now you want to send home its lifeblood. There’s not a serious economist or business person out there who honestly believes this country can get by a week without our immigrant workers.

Posted by: Max at May 3, 2006 12:45 AM
Comment #144987

The illegals are this Country’s lifeblood? Are you serious. The illegals are guilty of entering this Country illegally, driving wages down in numerous industries, taking jobs Americans want and need. I know I know but they are also working in Construction, meatpacking etc. Its not just picking crops. We seemed to manage quite well for years without the illegals Im sure we will get by again. This mixed message your trying to send will end up causing a nightmare 20 years down the road. We must deal with it now. Send’em home. Let them protest in Mexico for better conditions, jobs, rights etc.

Posted by: j2t2 at May 3, 2006 1:22 AM
Comment #145003


Marysdude: What you seem to not understand is that the contractor who hires illegals is not saying to their client, Im hiring illegals for a lot less than I paid my American workers so I am going to give you a break on the cost of roofing your house. They are putting the money they save on labor in their pocket.

I am not a republican, I am a lifelong blue collar democrat. I have never voted for a republican and never will.

We democrats are quick to point out the falling poll numbers of Bush and the republicans in congress. But, liberals refuse to see the polls on illegal immigrants.

Any democrat candidate who champions the cause of illegals in the fall election will get his or her head handed to them. Just when we have the repugs on the ropes and have a major opportunity to take back the congress, you want to piss it away over illegal immigrants who refuse to obey the laws of America because it is the humane thing to do. Get real, this is hardball and the republicans see and know a winning issue just when they need it.
Most people want their children to get a good education and land a good high paying high tech job. The problem with that is that many of our children are not suited for those jobs. Many are suited for the blue collar jobs in factories and in construction. And we are either sending those jobs to China or forcing our kids to compete against the illegals to see who will work for the least amount of money.

Any liberal who champions the cause of American workers and then hires illegals for less money makes a mockery of that cause!

Posted by: jlw at May 3, 2006 2:55 AM
Comment #145011

Marysdude:

You said: I just pointed out that most of the illegals could not afford to take off from work to march. Marchers were mostly legal citizens of latino descent or sympathizers to their cause.

I am curious how you arrived at this conclusion. Do you have supporting data regarding the composition of the marchers other than your assertion that illegals could not afford to miss a day of work?

Are you familiar with the practice of not paying people prior to the end of the work week to avoid high rates of absenteeism? I have known a number of contractors who hire people of dubious immigration status and they often complained that it took little to motivate his workers to not show up. Another friend in New Orleans, was invited to the big protest and the giant party that followed. The people making the invitation were employed illegals who, gasp, skipped work to protest for their rights, and to party.

You are starting to believe your own talking points.

Posted by: goodkingned at May 3, 2006 3:38 AM
Comment #145020

Marysdude:

I’m a boxer guy so no wedgies.

The president said it right: Big Fence,with a Big gate.

Craig’s right…that’s it.

If the president doesn’t get this right,he becomes Mr. Irrevalent.If he gets this right,the Rublicans have in their way in ‘06.

Big Fence,Big Gate…the new Republician slogan….call your Congressman and Senator.

Watch that slogan get legs the next few days.

Posted by: sicilianeagle at May 3, 2006 7:11 AM
Comment #145022

jlw, gkn & se,

Now I’ve got folks on both sides in a snit. Wow!

Read it again folks…I did not justify anything; not illegal immigration, not hiring illegals, not deporting illegals…nothing.

I made an observation only. It is doubtful that many of the marchers on the first were illegals, because those who could afford to take off from work were more likely legals and supporters. And, I qualified that by saying I had not taken a census of the latinos who were on the jobs I mentioned.

You are so intent on proving YOUR point you’ve forgotten THE point.

Posted by: Marysdude at May 3, 2006 7:43 AM
Comment #145026

One thing that amazes me constantly about the folks on the left is that for all ther passion over the environment they have lost their minds on this issue.

Whether it means leaving us prey to costs of foreign oil (from the supporters of Al Qaeda, trying to “steal” it from Iraq, or paying away our futures to other foreign nations instead of developing any reasonable resources here), tying up construction and farming to protect a 50’ square patch of mud, or anyone of a host of other gaga ideas like banning cars or trying to get Teddy Kennedy to allow windfarms near his precious mansion, you guys are all for it.

But when its the idea that “just maybe 300 million people living in this country is enough of a footprint on the environment” you guys put your blinders on.

Why?

Having lived in several cities with high populations of illegals one thing has certainly come to my attention: illegals don’t really give much thought to the environment. They are too busy trying to support family to care about stomping on a snail-darter or care if the mud puddle they are digging up to place a shack on is a “protected wetland”.

Don’t we have enough people here now? How many more can this country sustain without turning into Mexico City?

When is enough, enough?

Posted by: wayne at May 3, 2006 8:26 AM
Comment #145027

“We seemed to manage quite well for years without the illegals Im sure we will get by again.”

Can you name a single year when American did not have “illegals”? We have had immigration for 100s of years before America was formed, and it will continue forward.

btw - Does anyone know the cost of legally immigrating to the US from Ecuador? My friend just spent $2500+ and 2 years (which is considered very fast) to simply move here with his wife - and he is a dual citizen. They both also had the advantage of minimizing their fees and waiting time because both had secured full time work here. The average citizen there makes $87 per month. If you apply that to typical US families, the cost could be compared at $1,005,748.00 to be legal. (again, that would be considered cheap.) Does this make the issue any clearer?

Posted by: tony at May 3, 2006 8:58 AM
Comment #145028

Sorry, did the math wrong… $100,574.80 is the correct number.

Posted by: tony at May 3, 2006 9:00 AM
Comment #145030

Wayne,

Good one! You got the Dems! You pointed out how hypocritical they are because they say they are for the environment but illegals are dirty and litter! Don’t worry - I called in to Limbaugh and asked him to cover this one.

Yep, that’s about the level of analysis we’ve gotten from you guys the last 6 years, while you’ve flushed all this country’s money down the toilet. Thanks for keeping it up!

Posted by: Max at May 3, 2006 9:30 AM
Comment #145032

Can I name a year that we did not have illegals? Probably not. Can I name a year when we did not have 11+ million illegals? Yes I can. How about 1980, or 1990, or even Y2k. In the past the illegals were small in number and primarily did the crop picking. They usually went home in the off season. Now they arrange for others to come here illegally. When exactly is enough enough? 50 million?

Perhaps a way to come to terms on this issue is for someone, interested in helping those that want to immigrate to this Country legally, to set up a charitable fund to assist those that need the money.

Posted by: j2t2 at May 3, 2006 9:57 AM
Comment #145033
But when its the idea that ‘just maybe 300 million people living in this country is enough of a footprint on the environment’ you guys put your blinders on.

Wayne (and Max),

Contrary to what you write, pre-environmentalism and pro-immigration can coexist.

While the number of people can and does have a deterimental impact on the environment, a far more significant impact is how those people interact with the environment.

The U.S. causes more pollution per capita than the European Union. Why? because we drive more, throw away more trash, recycle less, and have poorer urban planning policies. If a region with more people than the US can be better on the environment than the US is, then it shows the two proposals can coexist.

Posted by: Steve K at May 3, 2006 9:58 AM
Comment #145035

Paul, Still whining I see! It was the Democrats who introduced the “felony idea” not the republicans….Check your facts………….or maybe you cant see through the tears that are constantly welling up in your eyes………
These people are ILLEGAL wether they marched or not thats the whole point ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL there not UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS, there not GUESTS
thier ILLEGAL this has nothing to do with IMMIGRATION it has to do with people BREAKING LAWS…..again ILLEGAL Why is that so hard to understand???????? Your so worried about being “NICE” you lose sight of what the real problem is I bet if one of these ILLEGALS took your job you might have a different view
or would you be “NICE” about it?????

Posted by: Phillippe at May 3, 2006 10:05 AM
Comment #145037

Max? Illeagal immigrants this country’s lifeblood? In a short statement you seemed tohave reduced me, my life and all of my ambitions to grey water. Thre is nothing in the list that these immigrants do that U.S. citizens won’t do.
Mow your grass? Are you lazy? How about hiring the nieghborhood kid?

Picking crops? My father did seasonal crop work in his teens. I tried and was turned down as a teen.

Slaughter house? Yeah, seems disgusting work, but if I needed a job… and I have been there before.

Construction? Move over! Capable, willing and able. And I just happen to be on a break from designing them. Would love to.

We don’t NEED them.

I occasionally meet latino forigners. Often nice people. I bear them no ill will. But, If they are not here legally>, with visa and green card, they need to get deported.

From the examples I have heard, The U.S. needs to streamline it’s immigration/entry program. For the ones already here, maybe fast track thier visa if they have a US citizen sponser, but from thier home country.

Having “Coyotes” lead groups of undocumented people across our border is a security issue.

Big fence, Big gate. Nice slogan. I like the concept.

Oh, just to state political stance for those who are counting: Independent, Liberal

Posted by: gmduggan at May 3, 2006 10:18 AM
Comment #145038

Phillipe -

Why such hostility? Just make your points - and try not to get so carried away with your anger.

“House Republicans rushed through legislation just before Christmas that would build hundreds of miles of fence along the U.S.-Mexico border, require that businesses verify the legality of all employees’ status through a national database, fortify border patrols, and declare illegal immigrants and those who help them to be felons.”

Washingtom Post : http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/11/AR2006041101643_pf.html

It was Frist who introduced legislation to make illegal immigrants felons. (check your facts?)

Posted by: tony at May 3, 2006 10:23 AM
Comment #145039

SE I’ve got to agree with you. The Dems will give up the gains made recently, on other issues and the Repubs shooting themseleves in the foot recently, during this next election cycle. They will “snatch defeat from the jaws of victory” if they go forward with amnesty. Im an Independant voter and prefer an even amount of Repubs and Dems in the House and Senate (in lieu of anything better)and hope they fight to a draw.

Posted by: j2t2 at May 3, 2006 10:30 AM
Comment #145045

Pubs,

Keep talking about this issue - puhleeeeze!

Posted by: Max at May 3, 2006 11:05 AM
Comment #145046

I agree with some of the folks who said that if the libs support this immigration movement they will get their ass handed to them in a sling. Here’s why…

If you are conservative, you aren’t for illegal immigrants because:

1) It is principally wrong - breaking the law deserves no rewards. No ifs ands or buts.

2) Security risk. Having a porous border gives us the heebie jeebies whether it is the northern border or southern. If we had soviet trained, suicide polar bears coming in through Alaska, conservatives would be all for building gun towers and electric fences.

3) Illegal immigrants don’t contribute to the tax base. This is also true for employers not contributing to social services in the form of tax withholdings (payroll taxes…etc). Simply put, if everything is cash under the table, and with a lot of that cash going back to their native country, there becomes an imbalance in what is put back in to the system then what is taken out (public schooling, Medicare etc…)

The reasons some of the libs (from what I’ve seen and heard) aren’t for illegal immigration are:

1) Should be same reason as #1 above. Yes I admit it; some liberals are free thinking individuals.

2) Same goes for #2 above. I think everyone is concerned about protecting our borders. I think libs are a bit more pragmatic about al Qaeda coming in from Mexico, but even they can recognize that if 11 million people can get through the border, how easy it would be to get a terrorist cell through Mexico or Canada.

3) Jobs - libs have traditionally been for the “working man”. I seriously can’t understand why liberals would be for illegal immigrants taking away jobs from Americans. The far leaning left would say that they do the work that “Americans” wont. True. Americans wont do that kind of work for the wages offered by employers. Raise the wage, give benefits…etc, and I think you will find more citizens of this country willing to participate.

Democrats need to get a uniform opinion on this. It’s only the far left that is truly unified in their message for amnesty. Lots of other dems are flip flopping, because they know that border states in this country are by and large against illegal immigration (yes even here in California). And Dems also know that the middle parts of this country are mostly red states who will vote against amnesty. It is also such a hot issue, that I think it will drive some of the trailer denizens to the polls much like the homosexual marriage topic did in 2004.

Any takers?

Posted by: b0mbay at May 3, 2006 11:09 AM
Comment #145051
I seriously can’t understand why liberals would be for illegal immigrants taking away jobs from Americans.

I don’t understand why you’d think we want that. We’d rather see them paying taxes and no longer undermining American workers’ wages.

Posted by: American Pundit at May 3, 2006 11:33 AM
Comment #145052
It’s only the far left that is truly unified in their message for amnesty.

That’s because Democrats are not for amnesty. The last person who advocated amnesty was President Reagan.

Posted by: American Pundit at May 3, 2006 11:34 AM
Comment #145053

Let me be clear. Democrats supported the Senate Republican’s immigration reform bill. Republicans are the ones in such a state of disarray over this issue that they killed their own immigration reform bill.

Posted by: American Pundit at May 3, 2006 11:36 AM
Comment #145055

>>Democrats need to get a uniform opinion on this. It’s only the far left that is truly unified in their message for amnesty. Lots of other dems are flip flopping, because they know that border states in this country are by and large against illegal immigration (yes even here in California). And Dems also know that the middle parts of this country are mostly red states who will vote against amnesty. It is also such a hot issue, that I think it will drive some of the trailer denizens to the polls much like the homosexual marriage topic did in 2004.

Any takers?
Posted by: b0mbay at May 3, 2006 11:09 AM

Sorry, bOmbay, but we Dems have never been in lock-step like you Ditto-heads. I, personally, think our efforts to squash illegal immigration should rest on fining and jailing those who hire them…many of my fellow Dems think I’m nuts…I like it like that…

Posted by: Marysdude at May 3, 2006 11:46 AM
Comment #145057

All

Reading these posts,I am now confused…Repubs sounding like lefties and vice versa!

Is there a full moon or something?

Yikes.

Anyway,Big Fence,Big Gate….I just had 12 dozen t-shirts printed (by illegals,of course..gotta keep that price down….imported from China too!)

Now,step right up and place your order….don’t push,don’t shove…there’s plenty of room for everyone….Color and size please?

Posted by: sicilianeagle at May 3, 2006 11:49 AM
Comment #145069
1) It is principally wrong - breaking the law deserves no rewards. No ifs ands or buts.

No offense, but is any sane person who’s watched everything go down over the last 6 years supposed to believe Republicans care about “the law”? “The law” is anything Bush says it is. Go tell it to Rush.

Posted by: Max at May 3, 2006 12:41 PM
Comment #145070

>>No offense, but is any sane person who’s watched everything go down over the last 6 years supposed to believe Republicans care about “the law”? “The law” is anything Bush says it is. Go tell it to Rush.

Posted by: Max at May 3, 2006 12:41 PM

Wow! Wish I’d said that…

Posted by: Marysdude at May 3, 2006 12:46 PM
Comment #145084

Being an illegal immigrant is a civil offense. Republicans want to make it a crime. Big difference.

I think we should make the hiring of an illegal immigrant a crime. If you do this, the number of immigrants trying to cross the border will drop precipitously.

For those immigrants already here we should do our best to enable them to become citizens - after learning English and American history.

Let’s go back to being America again.

Posted by: Paul Siegel at May 3, 2006 2:18 PM
Comment #145087

Paul,

“I think we should make the hiring of an illegal immigrant a crime.”

We already have, yet the laws aren’t being enforced.

California and Arizona (at least Phoenix) are sanctuary states.
It’s kind of a “catch and release” thing.

Posted by: Rocky at May 3, 2006 2:24 PM
Comment #145089

Is it a coincidence that this national march was scheduled for May 1st? May Day?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Day
May Day is a name for various holidays celebrated on May 1 (or in the beginning of May generally.) Today, May Day is best known as an international holiday celebrating labor and workers, and is often associated with socialism and Communism. May Day is an official government labor holiday in many countries. As an international celebration of labor, May Day is an especially important holiday in Communist countries such as the People’s Republic of China.

Posted by: esimonson at May 3, 2006 2:44 PM
Comment #145092

Gee, eric, all of those communist workers danced around a Maypole?

And here I thought all communist countries were joyless.

Posted by: Rocky at May 3, 2006 2:53 PM
Comment #145093

The problem with the whole enforcement thing is that the far left (tied dyed, pot smoking, acid flashback hippie burnouts) start screaming raciscm/bigotry/fill-in-the-blank.

If we are going to get serious about this problem, then we all need to cut out the crap and stop with the name calling and deal with the issues. If we catch an illegal, we need to send them back. Otherwise there is no stick for not following our immigration policies. It would be like if you ran a red light and the cops let you off with a warning everytime. There would be pileups on every intersection.

Fine/jail employers hiring illegals.
Catch/send back illegals.
Strengthen our border.

Let the rest of the world know that we are serious about this. We won’t cave in on global opinion. And another thing…how many other countries that are so quick to criticize our domestic policies practice the same degree of tolerence that we do? We air our dirty laundry for the rest of the world to see, because that is just who we are as a nation. You think China would tolerate that type of demonstration? My point being, that there are few countries out there that are willing to discuss their issues in such an open way. Are we perfect? No, of course not, but I trust our own citizens to make rational decisions on how to fix OUR problems more than the nay sayers around the world…

Posted by: b0mbay at May 3, 2006 3:00 PM
Comment #145114

Paul:

For those immigrants already here we should do our best to enable them to become citizens - after learning English and American history.

I oppose this because it rewards illegal behavior.

I am opposed to massive deportation because it seems extreme and impractical.

What I would support is setting up a correct system of immigration. I do like the High fences with big gates slogan.

What I believe this position would do is create pressure on the illegals to “do it the right way”. (which is what my mother and grandparents did!!

After a “correct” system is in place, (with secure boarders), I think the system will straighten out over time.

I fear with your idea, that it will only lead to this problem being continued indefinitely. It would codify the “real” process of becoming an american. The “normal way” would be to sneak into the country illegally and after a while become legal through legislation that you would propose. You system codifies illegal behavior which I would oppose.

Craig

Posted by: Craig Holmes at May 3, 2006 4:21 PM
Comment #145122

Paul:

Once again you are out of the mainstream (you lean so far to the left that you must walk in circles)…

USA Today ran a gallup poll and here are the numbers:

81% say Illegal immigration to the US is “out of control”

79% say controlling the US borders to halt illegal immigrants is extremely inportant.

61% say the US should make illegal immigration a crime.

Even with the most extreme question (number 3) almost 2/3rds of this country are in agreement. Time to throw away your little red book and get with the times. Communism is DEAD! Get over it.

Posted by: b0mbay at May 3, 2006 4:48 PM
Comment #145123

craig,

well put.

Posted by: b0mbay at May 3, 2006 4:50 PM
Comment #145148

jlw,

We are all immigrants or desidents of immigrants. The difference is legality.

Really, so logically or technically anyway, this makes only Native Americans the only legal Americans. Even the first settlers who came to North America, where did they get the authorization to settle here, not from the Native Americans but from the good ol’ king of England who is 3,000 miles away!
This immigration issue is blown way out of porportion, sure the polls say that most people think illegal immigration is a very urgent matter, but most people in America are selfish, arrogant, and ill-informed humans.

Paul,
Great article, it shows that there’re still some people in America who understand what a true American is.

Posted by: greenstuff at May 3, 2006 6:13 PM
Comment #145170

greenstuff - smoke more of it. It’s what - 80% of the population that “forgot what it means to be an american???”

Face it. you are so far out of the mainstream that you might as well be fishing in the sahara. The right, middle, and free thinkers on the left are all in agreement that there is a problem. We may disagree on the specifics on how to fix it, but the underlying issues are cemented in our resolve.

Mark my words…if any dem candidate listens to the squawkers on the fringe, they will get their ass handed to them. That is why you see folks like HillBilly Clinton hemming and hawing on this issue.

Posted by: b0mbay at May 3, 2006 7:21 PM
Comment #145430

bombay,
The so called 80% of “American” people have been brain washed and directed by the media and gov’t to believe that immigration is a big deal.
People must think “out of the box”, not conform to some movement that is trivial. Following the crowd isn’t always the right choice.

greenstuff - smoke more of it

I am, and your tasting better after each puff.

Posted by: greenstuff at May 4, 2006 4:54 PM
Comment #145513

>>The so called 80% of “American” people have been brain washed and directed by the media and gov’t to believe that immigration is a big deal.
Posted by: greenstuff at May 4, 2006 04:54 PM

80% of Americans, if asked to vote for a referendum in support of the Constitution as it is written, would not do so.

All is lost…

Posted by: Marysdude at May 4, 2006 10:29 PM
Comment #162608

I’M IN AGREEMENT!

IT’S REVIVAL OR RUIN!

NOT RELIGION…SATAN HAS THAT!

REAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST, …. UNTIL YOU TURN OFF THE T.V., THE PHONE, THE FAX MACH, THE WEB, PUT THE DOG IN THE BACK YARD…LOCK THE DOORS AND FALL ON YOUR FACE BEFORE ALMIGHTY GOD AND CRY OUT OF YOUR SPIRIT MAN; ” GOD! VISIT ME WITH YOUR POWER.. OR LET ME DIE!!”

I HEARD OF A HUSBAND AND WIFE WHO DID THAT RECENTLY, IN AFRICA … AND GOD SPOKE TO THEM TO: ‘GO TO THE WORSE VILLAGE YOU CAN FIND AND BE WILLING TO DIE (IF NEED BE) FOR REVIVAL..AND I’LL SHOW UP AND DO THE SUPERNATURAL!!”

THE ASK AROUND AND FOUND A MUSLEM VILLAGE, WHERE THE HATED WHITE PEOPLE AND CHRISTIANS!

WHEN THEY GOT THERE, THEY WE’RE ARRESTED AND TOLD “THEY WOULD BE KILLED AT SUNDOWN!”

THEY ANSWERED; ” FINE, BUT FIRST BRING US YOUR BLIND, CRIPPLED AND SICKLY… AND LET’S SEE IF OUR GOD CAN WORK MIRACLES!”

WHEN THE BROUGHT THE SICK, THEY PRAYED FOR ALL THE BLIND PEOPLE… “AND THEY STARTED SEEING, BY THE POWER OF GOD!”

THEY PRAYED FOR THE CRIPPLES AND THEY WALKED!

THEY PRAY FOR ALL THE SICK …AND GOD HEALED EVERYONE OF THEM!

THEN 80% OF THE MUSLEMS, ACCEPTED CHRIST AND THEY STARTED A CHURCH AND STARTED FEEDING THE HUNGRY!

IT’S NOW HAPPENED IN SO MANY VILLAGES, THAT THEY’VE SENT OF 200 MORE PASTORS AND NOW FEEDING OVER 20,000 CHILDREN!

GET READY! IT’S COMING TO AMERICA!

IT MAY GET WORSE …BEFORE IT GETS BETTER, BUT PRAISE GOD IT’S COMING!

LET IT START IN YOUR HEART… RIGHT NOW! GOD’S POWER AND LOVE IS REAL!!

IN “HIM”-

BUFORD DOWELL

WWW.EI-TENTS.COM
EITENTS@YAHOO.COM
214-282-8194
_________________________
” IN CHRIST… IS LIFE! ”

Posted by: BUFORD DOWELL at June 28, 2006 2:44 AM
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