Democrats & Liberals Archives

Help Wanted

Do you have the ability to lie? Can you look a reporter, Congress, a constituant or members of the United Nations Security Council in the eye and manipulate facts, twist the truth or outright lie?
Then you too can keep your job or get one in the Bush administration.

Mrs. McCarthy, Scott McClellen, Bunnatine Greenhouse and Colin Powell have all fallen victim to the truth. Powell wanted to tell the truth. Mc Carthy and Greenhouse did tell the truth and Mc Clellen couldn't make it sound like he was telling the truth.
All have lost their jobs and two have lost their credibility.

Powell put his reputation on the line when he spoke to the United Nations.
". And his fateful briefing one year ago before the U.N. Security Council-where he attached his personal credibility to claims of Iraqi WMD-has destroyed his once-considerable standing with the Democrats, not to mention our European allies, most of the United Nations, and the media." From Washington Post

McClellen has been reduced to a laughing-stock, desperately trying to spin the Bush administration blunders and confuse the White House press with ridiculous and incredible twists and manipulations of known facts. I can still see him sweating at the podium, with a fearful, dazed look on his face.

Bunnatine Greenhouse did her job, told the truth and is now going to lose the very job she did so well.
"From 1997, when Ms. Greenhouse joined the Army's sprawling construction agency with orders to end what some called casual and clubby contracting practices, Corps veterans grumbled that she was a troublemaker.
She was also an African-American woman and a civilian, trying to shake up what one former Corps commander has called a "good ole boy" network of longtime officers and favored companies.
. . . Now the Army Corps of Engineers is trying to demote Ms. Greenhouse, 60, or push her into retirement. To the surprise of no one who knows her, she is unbowed, charging in a much publicized letter of Oct. 21 that the Corps has shown a pattern of favoritism toward Halliburton that imperils "the integrity of the federal contracting program." From Newsweek

The latest casualty of the truth is Agent McCarthy. What did she do? She is accused telling reporter, Dana Priest about the "Secret CIA run Eastern Europian prisons." Let's not worry that the United States of America has "Secret CIA run Eastern Europian prisons", let's punish the person who exposed the fact that our once Democratic nation has been corrupted by the Bush administration and that we have become what we used to fight against. We are now the human rights violators.
Thanks G.W.

Posted by Andre M. Hernandez at April 25, 2006 8:57 AM
Comments
Comment #142910

“Then you two can work in the Bush administration.”

This is on the main post page… is there any way to correct it? Sorry, but it just jumps out at me everytime I look at it.

As far as McCarthy goes - I can see people know, saying that there were proper/legal ways to make this issues know and that leaks are never good. She worked in the office that was suppose to handle these issues in the proper way. If your boss is one of the guys you think is involved with illegal actiosn, then what good will it do to run the whole idea by him to see if it’s OK with him? Doing something illegal or damaging should never be the initial approach to solving a problem, but when the “cops” are the ones involved, what options do you have?

BTW - do you think the recently engaged “oil price gouging” investigation will include companies like Haliburton? (Already convicted of proce gouging in Iraq…) Do you think Exxon or BP? I’m guessing it will focus on the little guys - the independant store owners and possibly a few distribution contractors… but I highly doubt we will hear anything aimed at the root cause - the oil industry itself.

Posted by: tony at April 25, 2006 10:08 AM
Comment #142911

“I can see people know”

NOW!!!!!

(Now you can see why I noticed the “TWO” issue… it’s completely like something I would do.)

Posted by: tony at April 25, 2006 10:09 AM
Comment #142913

Does this really surprise you?

Name one politician that hasn’t lied, bent the truth, misrepresented the facts, or otherwise deceived the public. They all do it. And only the public is to blame because we continually re-elect the same liars, time and time again. We are stuck with this situation because the vast majority of the population just doesn’t care. The media, both left and right, perpetuate the lies to fit their own political adgenda and those that even watch the news swallow the whole mess, hook line and sinker.

Posted by: jwl at April 25, 2006 10:16 AM
Comment #142914

Tony,

Thanks, I didn’t see it.

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at April 25, 2006 10:23 AM
Comment #142922
The latest casualty of the truth is Agent McCarthy. What did she do? She is accused telling reporter, Dana Priest about the “Secret CIA run Eastern Europian prisons.” Let’s not worry that the United States of America has “Secret CIA run Eastern Europian prisons”, let’s punish the person who exposed the fact that our once Democratic nation has been corrupted by the Bush administration and that we have become what we used to fight against. We are now the human rights violators. Thanks G.W.

Very sad indeed !
We are witnessing yet another indicator of our demise, and a repeat of history.
If only the voters did not always wait until things get worse:

,-(1) Corruption, oppression,
| (2) courage, Responsibility, rebellion,
| (3) liberty, growth, abundance,
| (4) selfishness, complacency, fiscal irresponsibility
| (5) apathy, dependency, fiscal & moral bankruptcy,
` - - return to step (1)

So, this is what they mean by government Of / By / For The People ?

Our irresponsible and unaccountable government is:

  • (1) a vast structure of the Executive Branch that is a bloated gang of over two million persons that are neither seen nor heard as they irresponsibly throttle our freedoms and prosperity; subtly growing and securing more and more power; one of the first steps toward totalitarianism, is the destruction of the parliamentary/legislative branches of government;

  • (2) a relatively smaller 435 in Congress and their hundreds of thousands employees, mostly a fumbling and stumbling group that is too busy piling on pork-barrel, corporate welfare, and subsidies to special interests, gathering $millions while trying to get re-elected, voting themselves raises and cu$hy perk$, and far too preoccupied with seducing voters and fueling the the perpetual petty partisan warfare.

D.C. needs a flush.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 25, 2006 10:45 AM
Comment #142924

What’s “proce gouging in Iraq” ?
: )

Posted by: d.a.n at April 25, 2006 10:46 AM
Comment #142926

Agent mccarthy is proof that the liberal democrats are in bed with americas enemies.She should be in jail she reveiled information that put our military forces in grave danger.She is a traitor and should be tried and if found guilty hung from the highest tree.There will be more spies fired from the c.i.a. and maybe even a liberal senator or two might face a judge.Its hard to win a war when liberals are giving away TOP SECRETS TO THE ENEMY.

Posted by: saying at April 25, 2006 10:46 AM
Comment #142927

jwl -

I think it’s part of human nature to collect what fits our predisposition… both supporting what we beleive in as well as degrading what we don’t support. I’m always surprised at how herd-like people are. We run in whatever direction others move in without looking where we are heading. It’s amazing how easy incumbents get re-elected. It’s gotten worse lately, but it’s seems to have been in the 90% + range for 50 years or more.

I keep thinking that maybe this year, people have reached their threshhold for existing behaviors and will make large scale change… but then again, it things stay pretty much exactly where they are now, I will not be surprised. Many people love the idea of voting the idiots out, but when push comes to shove, they like supporting their party more.

Posted by: tony at April 25, 2006 10:51 AM
Comment #142929

saying,
You’re not even the least bit sneaky or covert about it, are you?
At least you are direct and honest about it, and we know exactly where you are coming from.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 25, 2006 10:53 AM
Comment #142930
Tony wrote: Many people love the idea of voting the idiots out, but when push comes to shove, they like supporting their party more.

Sad, but true. Also the herd-like thing is very accurate.

Pain is the motivator.
When the voters pain level reaches a certain level, they will vote out some incumbents, but they will, as usual, probably leave the job unfinished. It’s not something they are supposed to do only once in a great while.
Voting out irresponsible incumbents (keep the good ones) is what they were supposed to do all along, always.

But, sadly, pain is the motivator.
Too bad voters have to keep learning the hard way (over and over).

What is truly sad is the mechanism to make their own lives better is right there, right under their very own noses.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 25, 2006 10:59 AM
Comment #142931

“What’s “proce gouging in Iraq” ?

It’s from the latin term “procita” which means to charge one’s clients. ??? (Actually, it means I didn’t use my speel check, and it shows…)

Posted by: tony at April 25, 2006 11:01 AM
Comment #142932

don’t feed the trolls.

Posted by: tony at April 25, 2006 11:03 AM
Comment #142934

Tony and D.a.n
“Many people love the idea of voting the idiots out, but when push comes to shove, they like supporting their party more”

I think its that people have been led to “fear” the opposition party being in power and now believe that while their party is bad, the alternative would be far worse.

Posted by: kctim at April 25, 2006 11:09 AM
Comment #142935

Just funnin’ .
I’m certainly no one to talk about anyone else’s spellin’ .

Posted by: d.a.n at April 25, 2006 11:09 AM
Comment #142936

d.a.n. Ithink as time goes by you will see a lot of americans feel the way i do.This is truly a fight for for our very souls.Its going to be a long HOT summer.Let the games begin!!

Posted by: saying at April 25, 2006 11:11 AM
Comment #142937
kctim wisely wrote: I think its that people have been led to “fear” the opposition party being in power and now believe that while their party is bad, the alternative would be far worse.

I could not agree more, with both your’s and tony’s observations.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 25, 2006 11:12 AM
Comment #142941

saying,
Yes, I’m sure there are many that feel the way you do.
However, please consider the following:

  • It is not conservatives or liberals that are the problem.

  • It is not Republicans or Democrats.

  • It is something you will find in all parties and societies (i.e. many people everywhere).

  • It is something much more fundamental.

  • It is that is the root problem, and it knows NO party boundaries. That is the flaw in your logic.

  • There is a solution, but only if you truly understand the problem, and how to adequately account for it.

If you target conservatives or liberals only, you are going to miss the real cheaters. Also, falling for the partisan warfare game is falling for the clever game perpetuated by irresponsible incumbents that fuel it. Some are all too fond of wallowing in that petty, partisan warfare.

Power and opportunities have the uncanny power to corrupt many people. It’s nearly impossible to detect it in advance. Many are honest until that one day when Power and opportunity present themselves.

So, Education is the first step. Not bashing or targeting conservatives, since many are actually OK, just like many liberals are OK, and many Centrists are OK. Only the extremists (facists/dictators, anarchists, extreme socialists, or extreme conservatives, etc.) are bad, and there’s a lot of those too, but they, fortunately, are a minority.

Education will lead to the understanding of the importance of Transparency, which will lead to outrage, and a desire for Accountability, which will finally result in Responsibility.

It’s really that simple.

Vote out irresponsible incumbents, always.
Keep the good ones.
That’s all.
No grand schemes.
No vast conspiracies.
Just common sense.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 25, 2006 11:19 AM
Comment #142945

Tony,

I agree with you that most people find it easier to subscribe to a particular viewpoint rather than formulate their own. We live in a society that worships “Easy”. No one wants to make the hard decisions or say what needs to be said because they may be judged or even worse, “labeled”, for doing so. Its just too hard to make a stand anymore.

I don’t however find it amazing that incumbants get overwhelmingly re-elected. The system is completely rigged in their favor. It is corrupt. This issue is really the single most important issue facing this country and the survival of our constitution. Until “The Money” is taken out of politics, the system will remain corrupt and good, honest people will be discouraged from participting. As it is now, our elected leaders are largely “serving” for the purpose of lining their own pockets and increasing their sphere of influence and power. They couldn’t care less about you or I.

Sorry to be so pessimistic, but I don’t see things getting better in the furure. There is not enough ground swell in the population to create change in the system. We are spiraling towards the end. d.a.n. nailed it. We are witnessing our own demise as we implode from within. History is repeating itself. The empire is too large and the people too lazy. By the time our under-educated children realize what has happened, it will be too late.

Posted by: jwl at April 25, 2006 11:28 AM
Comment #142947

I will volunteer to work against the corruption… starting with a local embarrassment - NC Speaker of the House, Black. What a rube… and a DEM. I will be working to remove him… as well as National leaders that fail to honestly represent their States. I will cross party lines, or vote Independant, whichever presents the best option.

Posted by: tony at April 25, 2006 11:35 AM
Comment #142948

Well said, Andre. It’s nothing but the truth.

Posted by: Adrienne at April 25, 2006 11:37 AM
Comment #142953

EDUCATION The magic word.WHO FOR THE MOST PART EDUCATES OUR CHILDREN?Liberal teachers who dont seem to be educated theirselves.Who makes it possible for uneducated teachers to teach?Liberal law makers who want to redistribute wealth.Why do law makers pass such laws?To keep americans dumb and to keep the dumb vote.Why do they want to keep the dumb vote?Because smart americans dont vote for liberal bullshit!

Posted by: saying at April 25, 2006 11:51 AM
Comment #142966

saying,
You, like many, have been seduced into the partisan warfare.
Liberals are not the problem (nor are Conservative).
Each (all parties) have their cheaters.
The enemy is all of us.
Irresponsible, corrupt government, and slumbering voters that tolerate it; even empower it by re-electing the very same irresponsible incumbents that use and abuse them.

Try to be open minded for a moment.
It won’t hurt.
Seriously, you are on the wrong track.
I used to be on that track.
It’s all wrong.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 25, 2006 12:34 PM
Comment #142969

EDUCATION The magic word. WHO FOR THE MOST PART EDUCATES OUR CHILDREN? Liberal Teachers of all politcal persuasions who dont seem to be educated theirselves (btw, theirselves is not a word.) themselves. Who makes it possible for uneducated teachers to teach? Liberal law makers who want to redistribute wealth Taxpayers. Why do law makers pass such laws taxpayers pay for education? To keep Americans dumb from being ignorant and to keep the dumb them intelligent enough to vote wisely. Why do they want to keep them dumb vote intelligent enough to vote wisely? Because intelligent Americans dont will vote for liberal bullshit politicians who will work and vote in the best interests of America!

Posted by: Adrienne at April 25, 2006 12:40 PM
Comment #142973

Perhaps “saying” could explain why those who voted for Senator Kerry in 2004 had an average level of education 3.4 years greater than those who voted for Dubya?

In fact, research demonstrates that the higher the level of education one has attained the more liberal one is… it has something, I believe, to do with the ability of an educated person to discern facts and to think rationally and critically…. as well as to speak in complete sentences and coherent paragraphs….

Posted by: Dr. Poshek at April 25, 2006 12:44 PM
Comment #142976

saying,

I don’t know what’s wrong with me that I’m taking your bait.

Granted, most studies (and my own experience) support your supposition that most teachers are liberal. So what? There are many reasons for this and some of them don’t reflect very well on conservatives as a whole so it’s better to just ignore that.

But where does your idea that teachers don’t seem to be educated themselves come from? Every certified teacher in my state has at least a master’s degree - far more than the national average. If you want to draw a distinction between college learning and some other definition of education that you’re carrying around, I can tell you that the teachers I know are more informed about what’s happening in the world and are more likely to read books, newspapers, and magazines than the general population.

As I’ve posted elsewhere, it is politicians (mostly Republicans) who, through the use of standardized tests as the main barometer of learning, want to dumb down the curriculum and crowd out critical thinking in favor of pure factual knowledge.

Posted by: adverbal at April 25, 2006 12:50 PM
Comment #142978

adrienne you just did what most teachers do.They black out the truth and write in their own ideas of how they think things should be.Thank you for your demonstration.

Posted by: saying at April 25, 2006 12:59 PM
Comment #142983
tony wrote: I will volunteer to work against the corruption… starting with a local embarrassment - NC Speaker of the House, Black. What a rube… and a DEM.

Me too. Cornyn, Hutchison, and Burgess are not getting my vote next time.
__________________________
John Cornyn:
When Cornyn ran for Senate, Abramoff contributed $1,000, the maximum amount legally allowed. The allegedly anti-gambling Cornyn also received $6,250 in contributions from Las Vegas casino interests who oppose Indian gaming, some of which were made at the same time Cornyn was pushing to close the Tigua’s casino.
A February 2006 poll has found Cornyn’s popularity in the last six months has not improved, while his disapproval rating has grown. He now stands as the most unpopular senator in Washington D.C., with 40% approval and 38% disapproval.
__________________________
Kay Bailey Hutchison:
Pork-barrel Hutchison voted for:
$107,433,000 for projects added in the state of Senate TTHUD Appropriations Subcommittee member Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-Texas), and the districts of House TTHUD Appropriations Subcommittee member John Culberson (R-Texas), and House appropriators Henry Bonilla (R-Texas), John Carter (R-Texas), Kay Granger (R-Texas), and Chet Edwards (D-Texas), including: $1,000,000 for compressed natural gas buses; $1,000,000 for the University of Texas Flywheel Bus and Truck Program; $500,000 for the Midland County Board of Commissioners Connection; $250,000 for Odessa for the renovation of the Historical Globe Theater; and $200,000 for Nacogdoches for renovations to the Fredonia Hotel and Convention Center.
______more________
KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON, the first woman Texas has ever elected to the U.S. Senate, has gone from stardom to scandal in four months. Last week, she was indicted for misconduct in her former job as Texas state treasurer—an indictment she calls a “political witch hunt” by Democrats against a Republican. The issue is not whether her staffers performed political chores while she ran for the Senate—she admits they did—but whether the abuses were flagrant and whether she tried hard to hide them. She now faces the prospect of a trial during a bid for re-election next fall.

In 1994 the Dallas Observer’s Miriam Rozen gained access to grand jury documents in the case against Kay Bailey Hutchison. I can’t find the article online, but I managed to find a contemporaneous Texas Monthly article that quotes largely from the piece. The testimony starts with employees, former coworkers and others noting her abusive behavior around the office. She literally threw a book at a subordinate and kept her office in a state of fear while she was Treasurer. These employees testify that when she told them to start destroying documents that showed her using state-paid staff, offices and other taxpayer-funded resources for her own political activities, they made copies behind her back.
____________________________
Michael Burgess:
In April 2005, Burgess was one of only 20 House Members (out of 427 voting) to vote in opposition to the restoration of the House Ethics Committee rule that would bar indicted members from holding leadership positions in the House (probably because of his his close ties to then-House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, although DeLay himself had voted in favor of the resolution. Go figure.
____________________________

Start posting things like that (above) on all the blogs, and maybe you will get the attention of the irresponsible incumbents.
Perhaps it may even encourage someone else to run against them?
Politicians and their hacks are monitoring these blogs.
You can still write letters to your Senators and Representatives, but displaying their corruption, the way they vote, and the scandals of those Senators and Representatives all over the internet will get their attention faster than your letter (which probably won’t even be read). What ever you write and post all over the blogs will not go unnoticed (note: try to get your facts correct, and find a few sources).

Posted by: d.a.n at April 25, 2006 1:05 PM
Comment #142985

Dr. Poschek

Did that pat on the back you just gave yourself fell good?

Posted by: jwl at April 25, 2006 1:06 PM
Comment #142986

saying,
Your trolling is hilarious! In fact, you are so hilarious, that I’m now convinced you’re being stealthly satirical! :^)

Posted by: Adrienne at April 25, 2006 1:07 PM
Comment #142987

adverbal Please explain to me why our children are not learning in class.If teachers cant get the job done then hire teachers who can.Hook line and sinker.

Posted by: saying at April 25, 2006 1:07 PM
Comment #142994

That’s great Adrienne. : )
I think your right.
This can’t be for real, can it?

saying, Based on your many comments and responses, here is your political compass …

Would you say that is accurate?

Where do you think you fall on the compass ?

Posted by: d.a.n at April 25, 2006 1:22 PM
Comment #142998

Home of the well fed trolls. Sheesssh, come on guys. I know it can be fun, but it’s detracts from the discussion. Once you feed a troll they come back on a regular basis and then the only way to limit the danger they inflict is to put them down. (OK, no - that’s black bears… but you get the idea.)

Posted by: tony at April 25, 2006 1:28 PM
Comment #143000

Saying,

I is a forth-grade techer and i vary offendid by yore commentz. If yu wood du sum reserch yu wood see dat we techers r vary edukated;)

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at April 25, 2006 1:30 PM
Comment #143010

NO SATIRE HERE JUST THE FACTS.If i am wrong explain to me why liberal democrats and the enemies of the united states of america tend to read off the same talking points page.They feed each other every day with the same anti-america trash and you do it daily on this blog.The liberal media fights for the enemy with every news story that has any thing to do with terrorist.Usama bin laden has pictures of teddy kennedy,nancy polosi,john kerry,cris mathews and dirty harry read on his cave wall.Hey who do you think usama would vote for a republican or democrat for president of the united states.Hell in 2004 usama indorsed john kerry!Liberals are still this countrys biggest threat.

Posted by: saying at April 25, 2006 1:45 PM
Comment #143013

Ya know, I think some of these trolls are someone, perhaps a previous poster, that is, with a new handle, somewhat anonymously, saying what they really think? Or, perhaps, it’s just to get a reaction?

OK, back to the subject.
Someone is saying the secret CIA prison thing was all a myth anyway. None of it really happened? True or False ?

Posted by: d.a.n at April 25, 2006 1:48 PM
Comment #143018

Dan i think im a little north of your compass.Its called hard love.The truth will set you free.

Posted by: saying at April 25, 2006 1:51 PM
Comment #143028

andre Tell that to your past students who are right now standing in a welfare line some where or in a prison cell.Ill bet very few of your students are fighting for this country.

Posted by: saying at April 25, 2006 2:19 PM
Comment #143030

Despite “saying” and his fairly idiotic posts, many conservatives are not quite so stupid as liberals would believe. Nor are liberals as stupid as conservatives believe. Unfortunately, people like “saying” are akin to Hitler, and like the fringe wacko hard-line conservative group he evidently belongs to, he will not be missed when they are told to shut the hell up when America finally gets off its collective ass and votes out these morons. Until then, the best we can do is a saturday night beating of conservatives until they get the picture that they are very WRONG on most issues. Karma is a bitch….

Posted by: dirk at April 25, 2006 2:21 PM
Comment #143034

dirk the only saturday night beating you will ever give will be the beating you give your wife when she votes for a republican president on election day 2008.You are so funny hey guys watch out for dirks temper.he is a wild man.

Posted by: saying at April 25, 2006 2:35 PM
Comment #143036

d.a.n.:
“Where do you think you fall on the compass ?”

I’ve taken that little quiz, and I’m dead center in the bottom left square defined by the words Left and Libertarian. So I guess I’m a true Lefty, politically. Btw, I’m also Left-handed Lady born under the sign of Libra! ;^)

Posted by: Adrienne at April 25, 2006 2:42 PM
Comment #143043

Adrienne,
That’s interesting.
Mine is close to the center (-0.50 of +|-10.0) of the Left/Right scale (Centrist), and near midway (-3.9 of +|-10.0) below the center in the middle of the bottom half (leaning Libertarian).

It would be nice if a more thorough test could somehow be developed to measure ethics too, since a lot hinges on it (perhaps a third dimension?). But, it would be difficult indeed to get people to answer the questions honestly.
Who’s going to answer Yes to a question like: You went to the ATM to get $20 bucks, but it gave you $200 by accident. Did (or would) you return it to the bank?

Posted by: d.a.n at April 25, 2006 3:06 PM
Comment #143044

“Btw, I’m also Left-handed Lady born under the sign of Libra! ;^)”

Any Government grants possible with that?

Posted by: tony at April 25, 2006 3:08 PM
Comment #143045

That’s where the importance of Transparency becomes important.

Lots of us are not quite so ethical when opportunity presents itself.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 25, 2006 3:09 PM
Comment #143046

“You went to the ATM to get $20 bucks, but it gave you $200 by accident. Did (or would) you return it to the bank?”

You know who wouldn’t return it? Someone like “saying”, because like all conservatives, he doesn’t mind steeling from people, just like the corporations who get huge subsidies despite making record profits (like the oil industry). As soon as we rid this country of the conservatives, the better off we’ll be, because we can at least have a practical budget at that point.

Posted by: dirk at April 25, 2006 3:10 PM
Comment #143051

Breaking news America is winning the war on terrorism!We have them on the run.Liberals all across the country are terrified at the thought of going to jail for aiding the enemy.I predict we will hear nothing but the truth from democrat senators and yes the congress too.This is a great day for america.Imagine the liberal media giving americans the truth.This just in j.kerry dem. mass. just admitted to cris Mathews that hes gay in return for the scoop Cris mathews admits he is also a hardball gay blade.Lets play hardball!!

Posted by: saying at April 25, 2006 3:24 PM
Comment #143052

Now the trolls are being belligerent.


You see, now we’ll have to call animal control…

Posted by: tony at April 25, 2006 3:27 PM
Comment #143053

d.a.n.:
“Who’s going to answer Yes to a question like: You went to the ATM to get $20 bucks, but it gave you $200 by accident. Did (or would) you return it to the bank?”

I would return the cash. But then, I belong to a Credit Union!

tony:
“Any Government grants possible with that?”

:^) I doubt it — but it’d be nice if I could get a free GWB bobble-head figure for the back windshield of the car, or possibly a snow-globe featuring the Capitol Building!

Posted by: Adrienne at April 25, 2006 3:28 PM
Comment #143055

dirk i picture you as having breast inplants.If i am right please tell when your sex change opperation will be complete.As the democrat party needs a poster boy for their gay marriage program.

Posted by: saying at April 25, 2006 3:32 PM
Comment #143056

”:^) I doubt it — but it’d be nice if I could get a free GWB bobble-head figure for the back windshield of the car, or possibly a snow-globe featuring the Capitol Building”

We have a GWBush doll - the one that has a bunch of “funny” and “patriotic” audio quotes. He’s been in the corner, behind the door… he’s in timeout.

Posted by: tony at April 25, 2006 3:35 PM
Comment #143060

Adrienne,
I believe you probably would return it.
Some people are naturally honest and law abiding.
I’d be lying if I said it didn’t cross my mind to keep the $200 bucks.
But, those ATM machines have cameras too.
Hence, the importance of Transparency.
People are much more law abiding when there are fewer opportunities or consequences.
That’s what government needs more of, despite their consistent refusal to pass many badly-needed reforms that would increase transparency, accountability, and responsibility.

tony,
That’s funny. Time-out. For a moment there, I thought you were going to say you were sticking it with needles, or holding a lit-matchstick to it’s feet. : )

Posted by: d.a.n at April 25, 2006 3:58 PM
Comment #143069

Look on the bright side…..you all have Cynthia McKinney

Posted by: PJY at April 25, 2006 4:18 PM
Comment #143070

If you are for Abortion,Gay marriage,religious restrictions,A week defense,No military,Programs galore for the Able non-working class of america,Lies after lies from the liberal media,A wastefull education system,liars in the senate and congress,AL sharpton,cinthia mckinney,john kerry,barbara boxer,nancy polosi and every other un american creature in this country VOTE DEMOCRAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: saying at April 25, 2006 4:27 PM
Comment #143071

OH YEA DONT FEED THE TROLLS

Posted by: saying at April 25, 2006 4:28 PM
Comment #143072

The many faces of Troll.

Posted by: tony at April 25, 2006 4:31 PM
Comment #143075

If you are for the butchering of pension programs, corporate protectionism at the expense of the American people, making this country into a theocratic state, hate, intolerance, spending more than our budget allows, lies, starting wars with countries on false intelligence, racism, burdening our furture generations with overwhelming debt, tunnel vision, and general incompetence, then VOTE REPUBLICAN!!!!!!

Posted by: dirk at April 25, 2006 4:34 PM
Comment #143077

If you for making America better,
vote out all irresponsible incumbents,
always, regardless of party.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 25, 2006 4:38 PM
Comment #143079

Saying,

Do you feel the country is heading in the right(no pun intended)direction?

Do you think this administration has done a good job?

You believe America is stronger for having elected G.W.Bush?

If you do that’s fine. I do not. There are a large number of people who see this president as bad. That does not make us your enemy or the enemy of America.
I don’t have any of my ex-students fighting in the war that I know of. For you to make that assumption is risky because I do teach in an inner-city school with alot of poor and minority students. Exactly the kind of people who see the military as an excellent opportunity to achieve a career.
Have a nice day Saying and try to remember that we are all Americans.

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at April 25, 2006 4:43 PM
Comment #143080

Hey “saying” how can you be against abortion when you espouse the talking points spewed by the administration? Aren’t you aborting future generations by supporting this administrations kid-in-a-candy-store spendfest? What sort of life do you envision for your children or grandchildren? I guess you don’t want them to be able to achieve happiness, or at least economic security, so I guess that shows your true attitude towards children….

Posted by: dirk at April 25, 2006 4:45 PM
Comment #143087

“so I guess that shows your true attitude towards children…”

Yeah, its much better to just kill them rather than have the govt be responsible for their economic security.

Posted by: kctim at April 25, 2006 5:07 PM
Comment #143091

tony:
“We have a GWBush doll - the one that has a bunch of “funny” and “patriotic” audio quotes. He’s been in the corner, behind the door… he’s in timeout.”

:^D I just had a housewarming party (keg of local micro brew, my husbands band played, it was so much fun) and before the party we went to the party supply outlet for some stuff, we saw this life-size cut out of Dubya for sale. We were so tempted to get it for the party and let our friends mutilate it at will. But then, we thought about the fact that we’d invited all our new neighbors on the block to come (which almost all did) to celebrate with us, and decided we didn’t want to insult anyone who might be a Republican. But maybe next time we decide to throw a party…
:^)

d.a.n.:
“I believe you probably would return it.
Some people are naturally honest and law abiding.”

Mostly, yes. But only when laws seem logical and for the public good, you know? I mean, when I was growing up my Gran raised marijuana in her backyard which she gave to sick people who couldn’t eat. I didn’t then, and I still don’t believe that she could be considered some kind of a criminal for breaking that particular law. So, I guess you could say, it depends.

“I’d be lying if I said it didn’t cross my mind to keep the $200 bucks.”

Like I said, I belong to a Credit Union, so I feel it would be totally immoral for me to even think about stealing from them. If I belonged to the Bank of America… well, I think it’d definitely cross my mind, too. I mean they rip people off by charging them huge fees to use their ATM’s, and another fee just to speak with one of their tellers if they need to more than once a month. They’re always stealing from their own customers, so it’d make sense for people to think about stealing from them.

“But, those ATM machines have cameras too.”

True story.
A friend of mine went to an ATM in Sausalito once to take out some cash, but when she completed her transaction, she noticed that the machine had somehow credited her account with forty thousand dollars that didn’t belong to her! She assumed that it was just a mistake that they would later catch at her bank, but they didn’t. That amount stayed on her bank balance for four months. She then got nervous thinking they were going to catch it and then accuse her of something, so she finally went to the bank and told them what had happened. At first they looked at her like she was crazy, and claimed that this just couldn’t possibly happen — but they said they’d check into it. A month went by, and then she got a very appreciative phone call from the bank informing her that, yes, they finally figured out what happened, and that the forty thousand had been removed from her balance. They also told her that if she had never come forward, they’d never have caught it, nor would they ever have suspected her of anything!
Can you beat that? I wonder how many times things like that have happened, but no one ever said a word and just kept the money?

Posted by: Adrienne at April 25, 2006 5:13 PM
Comment #143092

Hey kctim

I didn’t know you had a M.D.? Oh, you don’t? Then I guess you shouldn’t tell a woman and her doctor what is best. But I guess you don’t like having a right to privacy and the ability to consult with your doctor regarding a medical procedure. Next time you need your prostate checked, I guess we should put it up for a vote.

Posted by: dirk at April 25, 2006 5:14 PM
Comment #143106

Adrienne,
Your friend is an honest person.
I get the impression that she struggled with it for a while, but in the end, did the right thing.
Good for her.
I’d like to think I’d be as honest as her.

Now, imagine your congress person in her position ?
I wouldn’t give odds on their honesty.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 25, 2006 6:00 PM
Comment #143109

“Then I guess you shouldn’t tell a woman and her doctor what is best.”

Why can’t I? You obviously think its ok to tell an infant its best that its killed.

“But I guess you don’t like having a right to privacy”

Sure I do, thats why I’m against all the feel-good liberal laws dealing with guns.

Posted by: kctim at April 25, 2006 6:06 PM
Comment #143112

“Why can’t I? You obviously think its ok to tell an infant its best that its killed.”

Nice try at conservative spin, but what I wrote was: “But I guess you don’t like having a right to privacy and the ability to consult with your doctor regarding a medical procedure.”

I guess in your book, the right to consult your doctor regarding a legitimate medical procedure, that even the more conservative organizations recognize as necessary under certain circumstances, is the same as “telling an infant that its best that its killed.” That’s equivalent to saying “you pay taxes, so you must support the death penalty”. Of course, conservatives don’t recognize the difference between respecting a right, and agreeing/disagreeing with a right.

Posted by: dirk at April 25, 2006 6:19 PM
Comment #143113

Damn, did I just tune in to FOX news?

Saying is saying that we Democrats are akin to the terrorists that perpetrated 9-11!

I doubt that even the religious right would claim this turkey on thanksgiving day! So don’t feed the turkey! It only looks and sounds like a turkey, it’s a troll!

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at April 25, 2006 6:20 PM
Comment #143115

What do

California
New York
New Jersey
Connecticut
Massachusetts
Virginia
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Maryland

Have in common?

They are each over represented in the best high schools, best grammar schools in the country. For their populations, they have MUCH more than their share of what considered the best places to train young minds in this country.

And they are all blue states.

Republican strongholds - Texas, the traditional south, the mountain states - are all quite weak in education. If you look at Newsweek’s list of top 1000 high schools (I forget if it’s exactly 1000 or not), you’ll be amazed at how few good schools are outside of traditional democratic states.

How the party of corporate executives and multinationals managed to sucker NASCAR and WalMart fans into believing that they’re on the same team is the greatest joke ever told.

Posted by: CPAdams at April 25, 2006 6:22 PM
Comment #143116

Adrienne,

Being honest should be it’s own reward.


You know, after reading some of the above posts it amazes me what the Watchblog manager will tolerate.

Posted by: Rocky at April 25, 2006 6:24 PM
Comment #143123

Saying you forgot,,, “” killing a woman when you drive”” ,, Super high Taxes to pay for social programs that do not work,, being in bed with the unions and then wanting illegal immagrants to steal high paying union jobs. You forgot, the fact that we also block all projects to reduce are foreign intake,, because we do not want to disrupt the animals in the wild

Posted by: Ted Kenndey at April 25, 2006 7:12 PM
Comment #143125

Saying-
There have been a number of people who have engaged in trollish martyrdom operations like yours. If you really wish to test the willingness of the editors here to permanently ban you, I say go ahead with all full speed.

My party has benefited greatly from the hatred of the Right over the years. Bill Clinton used your over the top rhetoric and actions to great effect to enlist the sympathies of the American people. Democrats have remained mostly pragmatic, fact-oriented, and results-minded, which is allowing them an edge over their rivals, as the Republicans collapse into rationalizations of repeated failure.

Folks like you give the impression of those who are sore losers in a debate. When we come out with facts and other things, your only response is insults, accusations and excuses. People see that over and over again, without the mitigation of real successes, and they begin to think that the Democrats know what they’re doing better.

Ultimately, people like you demonstrate why the Republican Party is the wrong party to lead.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at April 25, 2006 7:30 PM
Comment #143128

Something that amazes me is the assumpion by the “right” that Mary McCarthy must be guilty of “leaking”. Huh? When was the trial? I’ve been quite ill but I think I’d have seen or heard something that important.

When we on the left call for investigations into leaks by Bush & Co. we’re told that our requests are tantamount to treason. Hmmmm, what’s wrong with this picture?

Someone inside the Bush administration leaks the identity of a CIA operative and the investigation is still ongoing after three years but someone leaks information about constitutional and humanitarian violations and they’re found, fired and tried in the press within days.

Anyone that grew up in the 60’s as I did would recognize this as more closely describing how things worked in the USSR than in the USA. What would it take for Bush to declare martial law?

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at April 25, 2006 8:11 PM
Comment #143130

A war?

Posted by: Rocky at April 25, 2006 8:20 PM
Comment #143131

HAVE GREAT CARTOONS,JOKES. HOW DO I POST.YOUR E-MAIL,OR?

SAM

Posted by: SAM at April 25, 2006 8:27 PM
Comment #143140

saying,

Did you notice how quickly you jumped to the conclusion that Agent McCarthy is guilty of leaking the information she is accused of? She is now denying the accusation. We do know that reporter Dana Priest had SEVERAL sources. Agent McCarthy is denying that she is one of those sources.

Funny how the CIA and investigators who support the current administration found the leaker so quickly. Would that they could be so efficient investigating outrages committed by friends of the administration!

Perhaps you’ve jumped to the conclusion that Agent McCarthy is a Liberal as well. My guess is that she would not describe herself as a Liberal.

You are in deep denial. The enemy of the people here seems to me to be the current admnistration. Running secret prisons like Soviet gulags… going to court to prevent the public from finding out who and what was on the agenda at the Energy Policy meeting… outing a CIA operative to squelch a critic of the administrations goal of pre-emptive war… looking the citizens in the eye and saying that they were outraged by those who leaked information regarding Valerie Plame and now admitting it was themselves… granting lucrative no-bid contracts to cronies… paying exhorbitant fees to ‘private contractors’ in the current ‘war’… spending trillions of our children and grandchildren’s yet to be earned dollars… selling a drug company payola scheme as a medicare BENEFIT… I could go on and on!

Sheesh!! Exactly what do you categorize as anti-American? I can think of few groups who qualify as well as the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld group.

Edumacte yerself!!!

Posted by: LibRick at April 25, 2006 8:59 PM
Comment #143143

A story about honesty:

A friend, who is a lawyer in a small firm - was help a new client out the other day. She had some simple items to take care, too a little less than 1 hour. As my friend finished the work for her, she requested the bill. My friend charges $100 per hour, so he charged her $100. She paid in cash.

As she left his office, my friend noticed that she had given him 2 $100 bills by mistake. he could’ve caught her before the elevator doors opened, or simply let her walk away. He let her walk away.

As my friend explained this story to me, I asked “You seem to have had quite a moral delima about this.”

“Yes, he said. Do you think it’s bad that I didn’t tell my business partner?”

(joke)

Posted by: tony at April 25, 2006 9:12 PM
Comment #143190

LibRik:

Regarding whether or not McCarthy is a liberal or not:
She may not be a liberal but she donated $2,000 to Kerry’s campaign and an additional $8,000 to the DNC or it’s subsidiaries.

Certainly doesn’t sound like a Republican.

Posted by: goodkingned at April 26, 2006 3:30 AM
Comment #143191

I guess that everyone knows that Tony Snow has accepted the position of White House spokesperson.

Posted by: goodkingned at April 26, 2006 3:31 AM
Comment #143193

In the interest of completeness here is the CIA’s side of the story.

In response to a call for investigation into leaks about compartmented programs (super secret), McCarthy took and failed a polygraph test and then confessed that she had leaked info. She was subsequently dismissed from her position.

Three days later, McCarthy’s lawyer issued a statement on her behalf acknowledging that she admitted having unauthorized contact with representatives of the Press, but denying that she had revealed any classified information. McCarthy through her lawyer also denied that she had made any confession of guilt to the CIA.

The CIA disputes McCarthy’s denial that she confessed and maintains that the basis for her dismissal is her confession.

Posted by: goodkingned at April 26, 2006 3:47 AM
Comment #143212

LibRick,

“The enemy of the people here seems to me to be the current admnistration. Running secret prisons like Soviet gulags… going to court to prevent the public from finding out who and what was on the agenda at the Energy Policy meeting… outing a CIA operative to squelch a critic of the administrations goal of pre-emptive war… looking the citizens in the eye and saying that they were outraged by those who leaked information regarding Valerie Plame and now admitting it was themselves… granting lucrative no-bid contracts to cronies… paying exhorbitant fees to ‘private contractors’ in the current ‘war’… spending trillions of our children and grandchildren’s yet to be earned dollars… selling a drug company payola scheme as a medicare BENEFIT… “

Perfectly put. This is clearly a disfunctional administration that has to be shut down ASAP.

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at April 26, 2006 8:34 AM
Comment #143216

“Of course, conservatives don’t recognize the difference between respecting a right, and agreeing/disagreeing with a right”

And liberals don’t respect rights they don’t agree with, so what.
Both sides are nothing but petty and childish.
Oh, for future reference, I happen to believe in the death penalty and believe it needs to be actually used more often. But I am also pro-choice.
So which party does that place me in now?

Posted by: kctim at April 26, 2006 9:07 AM
Comment #143239

>>The CIA disputes McCarthy’s denial that she confessed and maintains that the basis for her dismissal is her confession.


Posted by: goodkingned at April 26, 2006 03:47 AM

I suspect it depends on the degree of need. If the CIA needs to get rid of McCarthy for cause, the detector results is adequate. If the degree of need is the truth, the detector results may not be enough…

>>I happen to believe in the death penalty and believe it needs to be actually used more often. But I am also pro-choice.
So which party does that place me in now?

Posted by: kctim at April 26, 2006 09:07 AM

In the wishy-washy middle? But, from many of your previous posts, I’d guess…somewhere to the right of Atilla…

Posted by: Marysdude at April 26, 2006 12:02 PM
Comment #143243

Hmmm, interesting Dude.
Applying the same logic to all issues and not just the ones I agree with, makes me wishy-washy?
I just love how “choice” is only important for issues one agrees with and how govt and others know best when its issues one disagrees with.

So, wishy-washy middle huh? Ok, I’ll accept that.
Beats being a hypocrite any day.

Posted by: kctim at April 26, 2006 12:16 PM
Comment #143254

d.a.n.
“Adrienne,
Your friend is an honest person.”

She is. And the thing about it was, she was so poor at the time — trying to finish college, and had a really low paying job.

“I get the impression that she struggled with it for a while, but in the end, did the right thing.”

She told me the first two months she kept expecting the bank would realize their mistake and it would just dissappear. The third month, she was like “damn, I’ve got forty thousand dollars!”, then, reaching the fourth that became “damn, that forty thousand isn’t mine!”

“Good for her.
I’d like to think I’d be as honest as her.”

I believe I’d have reacted the exact same way she did.

“Now, imagine your congress person in her position ?
I wouldn’t give odds on their honesty.”

Sad, but true.

Rocky:
“Adrienne,
Being honest should be it’s own reward.”

For me it is, also. Yet, neither of us have probably ever been completely destitute, or insanely greedy, so what do we know about people who choose to take the opposite approach to life?

“You know, after reading some of the above posts it amazes me what the Watchblog manager will tolerate.”

Yeah, after that disgusting reply to dirk, mr. saying should’ve been toast.

Kansas Dem, LibRick, re: Agent McCarthy
I think if she did leak that info, she’s a hero. Besides, what they’re accusing her of isn’t nearly as bad when compared to what Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Pat Roberts leaked to the press. Check out this article: Is There A Double Standard On Leak Probes?

tony, enjoyed the joke! Too bad it wasn’t more far-fetched… :^)

Andre:
“Perfectly put. This is clearly a disfunctional administration that has to be shut down ASAP.”

I’ll second that motion.

kctim:
“So which party does that place me in now?”

:^) Your own. Now all you need to do is come up with a name and get yourself a few followers!

Posted by: Adrienne at April 26, 2006 12:39 PM
Comment #143255

>>So, wishy-washy middle huh? Ok, I’ll accept that.
Beats being a hypocrite any day.

Posted by: kctim at April 26, 2006 12:16 PM

kc,

I put that in the form of a question, since it appeared to be rehtorical. And you are right about it being better than hypocracy…

Posted by: Marysdude at April 26, 2006 12:42 PM
Comment #143273

OK - one more person saying the Bush’s Administration completely ignored pre-war intelligence…

http://images1.americanprogress.org/il80web20037/ThinkProgress/2006/60min.320.240.mov

I know there is going to be some way of discrediting this person as well… but at what point does everyone face up to the the fact that is mostly likely what happened?

Posted by: tony at April 26, 2006 2:08 PM
Comment #143277

Adrienne,

“Yet, neither of us have probably ever been completely destitute, or insanely greedy, so what do we know about people who choose to take the opposite approach to life?”

Belive me, in the ’60s and ’70s I had my share of dinners consisting of Rice a Roni and Kraft mac and cheese.
It is about treating people the way you wish to be treated, and that includes how we deal with corporations such as BOA.

As far as our angry posters, I got bounced for less, and applied for re-instatement.
It forced me to refine my communication skills.

The major benefit was my learning to tell someone to go to hell in such a way as to have them look forward to the trip.

Posted by: Rocky at April 26, 2006 2:13 PM
Comment #143296

Looks like agent mccarthy’s leaking of top secret information could be linked back to John kerry.if this is true houston we have a problem!As for mccarthy’s political veiws she gave tons of money to kerry in 2004.I think we are starting to see that a lot of high ranking government official’s have been fighting the bush team from day one.what these folk’s need to understand is when you leak top secret information you are not leaking george bush’s top secret information you are leaking the AMERICAN PEOPLE’S TOP SECRET INFORMATION!It is an outrage that this woman is walking the streets.Hopefully her kerry and anyone else that might be involved will be jailed soon.As with scooter libby something must be done.

Posted by: saying at April 26, 2006 3:00 PM
Comment #143299

tony,

I too, would like to know how many more people coming forward it will take until even the truest of true believers will begin to face the disturbing facts.

Rocky:
“Belive me, in the ’60s and ’70s I had my share of dinners consisting of Rice a Roni and Kraft mac and cheese.”

Oh, I remember those days well, too. Endless packages of ramen noodles mixed with a pitiful handful of chopped veggies. In my case that was practically the entire decade of the 80’s. Still, there was humor in that, and it made my husband and I appreciate things more. Every Thanksgiving we put out this hilarious picture of the year when we were so poor we actually had Swanson’s TV turkey dinners (yuk) to mark the occassion. Remembering that makes everything good taste even better.

“It is about treating people the way you wish to be treated, and that includes how we deal with corporations such as BOA.”

I agree — and obviously corporations don’t want to play by the same rules as we do — so we’ve got to fight them tooth and nail.

“The major benefit was my learning to tell someone to go to hell in such a way as to have them look forward to the trip.”

:^) Indeed! It’s a highly creative process.

Posted by: Adrienne at April 26, 2006 3:09 PM
Comment #143304

Rocky & Adrienne,

Please don’t ever let me piss you guys off…ha!

saying,

Let’s see…if a gossip link between Kerry and McCarthy should send both to jail, should a gossip link between Cheney/Bush and Libby cause both to be jailed? YEAH!!! Kerry is okay and a good man, but I’d trade him for Cheney/Bush any day…

Posted by: Marysdude at April 26, 2006 3:28 PM
Comment #143362
In fact, research demonstrates that the higher the level of education one has attained the more liberal one is… It has something, I believe, to do with the ability of an educated person to discern facts and to think rationally and critically… as well as to speak in complete sentences and coherent paragraphs…

How true. To quote John Stuart Mill:

Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.”

James A. Davis, from the National Opinion Research Center and Harvard University says “study after study shows better-educated and younger Americans to be more liberal”.

And of course we have the two studies I have previously posted Links to:

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/07/22_politics.shtml

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/international_security_bt/102.php?nid=&id=&pnt=102&lb=brusc

In short, the Conservative effort to either do away entirely with the Department Of Education, PBS, and the NEA - or to simply underfund them to the point that they wither on the vine - has worked: we now have a Moron for Resident Of The Benighted States, and a veritable army of Marching Morons who support him.

WHEN WILL YOU PEOPLE “GET IT?” Conservatism is a dangerous and harmful ideology which is driven by the Evil using the support of the Ignorant!

If Human Society is to progress at all, this vile and utterly bankrupt philosophy must be expunged from it. We must educate our citizenry to become familiar with the tools of Critical Thought. We must get them to Question Authority, Despise Mediocrity, and Eschew Opportunism.

How much longer until the Nookewlur War With Canada? Will you “moderates” insist on yet more Polite Discourse and Reasoned Debate with these crypto-Fascists?!?

WAKE UP!

And smell the World burning.

Posted by: Betty Burke at April 26, 2006 8:05 PM
Comment #143392
Betty Burke wrote: WHEN WILL YOU PEOPLE “GET IT?” Conservatism is a dangerous and harmful ideology which is driven by the Evil using the support of the Ignorant!

Betty,
Don’t get angry … but it does not make sense to say all (or most) conservatives are dangerous and harmful. And, neither of the links provided are convincing, because one is a POLL about conceptions that people have, but those are the same misconceptions that congress had when they gave authority to Bush to attack Iraq. The majority of Congress also fell for it. There were also dissenters in both parties.

The other linked article is ambiguous and reads like something from the astrology column, and one can find that type of person, described in the BERKELEY article, from many realms and either political party. There are also countless articles and countless POLLs saying the very same thing about liberals. Also, there are a lot of those so-called conservatives that used to support Bush, that no longer do.

This partisan warfare thing is very powerful
It’s been going on for a very long time.
It is politicians’ most favorite, seductive detractor.

Betty, I could use your very own words:

“WHEN WILL YOU PEOPLE “GET IT?”

You think you see the truth.
You think conservatives are the problem.

I think I see the truth.
I think lazy, irresponsible incuments and lazy, slumbering voters, and a lack of transparency is the problem.

Who do you think is right?
(others please join in, if you’d like).

Betty, I too used to think liberals were the problem, (back when I was brainwashed). And, Betty, you believe conservatives are the problem.

But cheaters (irresponsible incumbent politicians) in both parties fool us into believing that, and cheaters fuel the partisan warfare. Voters, too lazy to pay closer attention, get used and abused.

But, the fact is, there is something else more fundamental that is the problem, and it knows nothing about party boundaries. The true root of the problem is within too many of us. Political philosophies has little to do with it (excluding the extremists).

You appear to want to make things better.
Targeting conservatives and conservatism may be the wrong target? That’s just like so-called conservatives targeting liberals.
But, the irresponsible incumbents that fuel this partisan warfare, absolutely love it.

Do you want to be their pawn ?

There are cheaters in all parties, organizations, and societies.
They can’t all be conservatives.
They can’t all be liberals.

That just does not make sense.

The fact is, there are quite simply, too many cheaters in all parties, and the system design is flawed due to a lack of transparency, which breeds corruption. Slumbering voters tolerate it, until the levels of irresponsibility get bad enough to cause enough pain for voters to get fed-up with all of the incumbent politicians. All the voters need to do to improve, is to do that every election, always.

Irresponsible incumbent politicians should be ousted, always. Keep the good ones, and vote out the bad ones. Nothing fancy. Just the one simple, common-sense thing we were supposed to be doing all along.

Look deeper, and you may find the real problem.

It’s not all conservatives.
For every conservative you name, I’m certain I can find a liberal that is equally irresponsible.

  • Stop Repeat Offenders.

  • Don’t Re-Elect Them !

Posted by: d.a.n at April 26, 2006 10:30 PM
Comment #143411

Betty,

“How much longer until the Nookewlur War With Canada? Will you “moderates” insist on yet more Polite Discourse and Reasoned Debate with these crypto-Fascists?!?”

Yeah, I will.

We all have to live here and it is their country too.

Listen, extremeism on either side of the spectrum is just extremeism.
The extreme right and left have done their damndist to tear this country apart. I want to be able to pass America on when my time comes to. The idea of democracy should be spread all over the planet, just not at the end of a gun.
It’s high time we put all this petty bullshit asside and realize what the founders wanted for America.

Posted by: Rocky at April 27, 2006 12:05 AM
Comment #143417

Adrienne,

You just had to mention Pat Roberts and I was already feeling quite ill.

Check out the voting record of this turkey:

http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Pat_Roberts.htm

I’m gonna go get sick now.
I’ve actually met this turkey at the VA hospital and he never stops spewing shit. I’m convinced that he shaves his head so it slips in and out of his ass easier.

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at April 27, 2006 12:31 AM
Comment #143422

I thought after 9-11 it was odd that Bush had to create a new agency to deal with what should have fallen under the responsibilities of the National Security Advisor (uh, that would be Condi), but they not only created a new agency that’s failed to do anything but cost $$$$$$, now they’re eliminating agencies that had functioned fairly well:

Senate Panel Recommends Abolishing FEMA
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060427/ap_on_go_co/katrina_congress_10

Tony Snow’s potential first message:

Sir, yes sir! This is war, we have no time for civilian casualties! It’s time to seperate the men from the boys!

Anyone that’s milked a cow knows that the cream rises to the top. We have no room in a post 9-11 America for a bunch of milk-toasts so either get with the program or lay down and give us traction!

FEMA was created for pussies!

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at April 27, 2006 12:59 AM
Comment #143460

Adrienne, dan, Rocky, Betty Burke,

Think about the posting difference that has occured on this site. Last year we had to defend posts because Bush had alot of supporters who would defend his screw-ups and force us to give more and more facts, research further into the issues and be very careful before posting.
Today we have “Saying”, who seems only interested in bashing us and is not in a position to defend Bush because he has, as we predicted, become impossible to defend.
The only reason I began writing about our government is that I recognized very qiuckly that this administration was terrible. I recognized the damage Congress and the Senate were about to do to the average American.
If one person who used to defend Bush and our corrupt government has changed their minds because of a particular debate or exchange of ideas on this site, all of you should be congratulated because you have expressed ideas and shared thoughtful information, engaged in fact-based debate and just “kicked ass.”
This post, one year ago would have brought the “Bush sheep” out of the wood work. The flock has been thinned thanks to you folks.

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at April 27, 2006 10:19 AM
Comment #143472

Andre,

I would like to think that I helped in my own small way.
I would also like to thank this administration for going above and beyond to convince people that they don’t have a clue.

I also want to thank the little people, Billy Barty, Mini Me, …….

Posted by: Rocky at April 27, 2006 10:54 AM
Comment #143475

I really enjoy the conversations, and I’ve quite a bit posting here. I also enjoy listening the sad, helpless talking points coming from the other side - I guess it comfirms we’re on the good side. I don’t automatically think people over there are inherently stupid or completely devoid of legitiate issues… it’s taken time to come to that conclusion. ;)

Posted by: tony at April 27, 2006 11:00 AM
Comment #143493

Tony,

I’m sorry I forgot to list your name in the above post. I enjoy reading your posts.
It’s nice to be able to share Ideas and our collective frustrations with our failure of a government without being mindlessly bashed for it by people who refuse to even research the issues being discussed.

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at April 27, 2006 11:42 AM
Comment #143567

Wow, thanks so much, Andre! I really appreciate that.
Now take a bow of your own, my good man!
If we really have made a difference in this blog as you say, then your own excellent articles and replies have been every bit as important.

Posted by: Adrienne at April 27, 2006 2:32 PM
Comment #143614

Betty Burke, the Rpblcns are finding that it is advantageous to encourage ignorance when it is politically useful.

Large public high schools in the suburbs, originally set up for access to the widest possible curriculum, have become public nuisances for various reasons. Many teenagers now drive to school, creating traffic jams. Open air drug markets spring up around them, and gang activity arises between various ethnic groups.

And how are you posting 2 links in the same message? This site never accepts any message I have posted with more than 1 link.

and remember:
Trolling is a form of harassment that can take over a discussion. Well meaning defenders can create chaos by responding to trolls. The best response is to ignore it, or to report a message to a forum moderator. continued at:

http://ohrealy.blogspot.com/2006/03/trolls_25.html

Posted by: ohrealy at April 27, 2006 4:02 PM
Comment #143669
Andre M. Hernandez wisely wrote: Adrienne, dan, Rocky, Betty Burke, Think about the posting difference that has occured on this site. Last year we had to defend posts because Bush had alot of supporters who would defend his screw-ups and force us to give more and more facts, research further into the issues and be very careful before posting. Today we have “Saying”, who seems only interested in bashing us and is not in a position to defend Bush because he has, as we predicted, become impossible to defend.
True. Very good point. Some things have changed. It seems to me that the “In-Party” always screws up, and it is probably because: Power Corrupts
Andre M. Hernandez wrote: If one person who used to defend Bush and our corrupt government has changed their minds because of a particular debate or exchange of ideas on this site, …
I did. I’m no longer Republican, but I’m really no longer any-party, because I don’t think parties are really the problem or solution. I see the problem in all parties and amongst too many slumbering voters. It really is all of us, and Education, via sites like watchblog, and all other potential avenues, is very important. Education is the first step.
Andre M. Hernandez wrote: … all of you should be congratulated because you have expressed ideas and shared thoughtful information, engaged in fact-based debate …
Yes, contributors should be proud. Perhaps, even the trolls for providing us a punching bag.
This post, one year ago would have brought the “Bush sheep” out of the wood work. The flock has been thinned thanks to you folks.
And thanks to you too. We could (sadly) thank Bush too, due to his 99+ blunders that has produced a lot of dissenters. Many Republicans are growing tired of getting twisted into a pretzel trying to explain or rationalize what government does.

The only thing I’d add, is that the “In-Party”, who ever they are, will abuse power, without sufficient Education, Transparency, and Accountability. And, the “Out-Party”, who ever they are, will abuse their power to sabotage as many goals as possible of the “In-Party”. Thus, the end result is a dysfunctional government.

ohreally,
You can post two links on the blue and red column if you use link text following the link. That way, the filtering software treats it as one link, and will allow two links. Otherwise, only one is allowed.
The green column seems to allow three links (if link text is used. Thus, there must be separate filters for each of the three (blue, green, red) columns. See the HTML tips below.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 27, 2006 5:45 PM
Comment #143675

Andre:

I join with Adrienne in thanking you for both your gracious comments and your insightful posts. You are, of course, right: but let us not congratulate ourselves for merely Doing The Right Thing. This should be de rigeur. It is astounding to me that Fascism must be staved off in this country - let alone that we must explain why it is not a good idea to allow it! Let us instead redouble our efforts, and bend ourselves to the task of creating Liberté - Egalité - Fraternité!


Rocky:

Listen, extremeism on either side of the spectrum is just extremeism.

No, Rocky. To quote a famous (old school) Conservative’s only good line:

Extremism in the pursuit of Liberty is no sin.”
- Barry Goldwater

Let me answer your concerns with something I just addressed to d.a.n. in another thread:

I am fully aware of the Dangers of Fighting Monsters and gazing too long into the Abyss they dwell in.

And, if it weren’t for the simple fact that there IS NO MORAL EQUIVALENCY between Their message and Ours, I would be more mellow about it.

Indeed, before their Transgressions became Atrocities over the past Six Years, I was content with Polite Debate.

But the absolute paucity of America’s most pessimistic imagination, in the face of the many heinous travesties they have committed, beggars the mind’s most hideous conjecture, and requires a more militant response. Of necessity.

Let’s say that, instead of America and the World, Karl Rove and Dick Cheney were gang-raping Your Mother. Would you be so sanguine then? Would you engage them in Polite Debate? Have a Moderate Discourse with them, in an attempt to get them to stop?

Or would you take the nearest Wood Axe / Fireplace Poker / Tire-Iron / Meat Cleaver into your hand and put a stop to the horrible Crime?

For me, America is my Home, and the World is my Mother. I am merely reacting appropriately, according to my perceptions.


ohrealy:

I find that the WatchBlog ParanoiaBot generally pukes on three Links. You can “cheat,” though, by stripping the “http://” off the front, warning your potential readers that they will have to copy-and-paste in their browser’s Address Bar, and then posting as many URL’s as you like.

Posted by: Betty Burke at April 27, 2006 5:55 PM
Comment #143688

Betty,

Laying it on a little thick with the hyperbole don’t ya think?

Would you be satisfied with a re-enactment of Lexington and Concord?

Further polorization of the American public isn’t what we need right now and the objects of your ire will be gone soon enough.

I would say also that quote made for great campaign retoric that scared the crap out of the voting public. You will remember that thumbs were on the buttons at the time?

You want to blame someone, blame Madison Avenue, for all of our elected officials are equally guilty of the mess that we are in. While you’re at it let’s blame the American voting public for skipping the last dozen or so election cycles. After all this screwing we’ve been taking didn’t just happen overnight.

No I choose to reason with people because that is the only way to actually win people over.
Emotion will only get you so far and then you either use violence or logic.
I choose logic.


Posted by: Rocky at April 27, 2006 6:52 PM
Comment #143696

Help Wanted: Someone to replace Rep. Alan Mollohan:
Citizens Against Government Waste (CAGW) has named Representative Alan Mollohan (D-W.Va.) Porker of the Month for abusing his position on the House Appropriations Committee by securing hundreds of millions of dollars in earmarks that may have benefited him personally. In an April 8, 2006 article, the New York Times detailed how Rep. Mollohan has directed $250 million to five nonprofit organizations that he set up. To run the organizations, Rep. Mollohan has recruited friends and former aides who then contribute to his political campaigns and family foundation. The National Legal and Policy Center has filed a complaint questioning whether a spike in Rep. Mollohan’s personal fortune had any connection to earmarks that he secured, and on April 21, Rep. Mollohan stepped down from his position as the senior Democrat on the House Ethics Committee. For directing earmarks to wasteful projects that have the effect of swelling his campaign coffers and possibly his personal wealth, CAGW names Rep. Alan Mollohan Porker of the Month for April 2006.

The bar is set so very low.

D.C. needs a flush.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 27, 2006 7:40 PM
Comment #143796
Rocky wrote: You want to blame someone, blame Madison Avenue, for all of our elected officials are equally guilty of the mess that we are in. While you’re at it let’s blame the American voting public for skipping the last dozen or so election cycles. After all this screwing we’ve been taking didn’t just happen overnight.

Yes. It’s been going on for decades.
Laziness, fueling greed and selfishness is why we are where we are.
The thing that will motivate change will be pain.
Slumbering voters, unfortunately, won’t wake up until the pain and misery is much worse, and much more difficult to resolve.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 28, 2006 9:52 AM
Comment #143923

d.a.n., Rocky,

Look at what debates and the sharing of ideas has done to expose the Democrats to us. They suck too.
We know more because of people, not those who lob crap and run, but those who have participated in the posts over the last year or so. I’ve learned more about the people who are conservative and their viewpoints and have been better educated about the failures of the Democrats. I’ve heard varying viewpoints that have me in an Independent fraim of mind. I do not like either party. It was black and white, now we see through this and realize we were willing participants in the B.S. because we were following party line nonsense that has screwed our government up. I think that I and many of us have been educated through shared thoughts and ideas.
The crap lobbers are sometimes amusing too.

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at April 28, 2006 4:34 PM
Comment #143946

“Or would you take the nearest Wood Axe / Fireplace Poker / Tire-Iron / Meat Cleaver into your hand and put a stop to the horrible Crime?”

Just like a liberal to bring a a poker, iron or cleaver to a gun fight.
Good luck.

And people wonder why I’m so negative concerning the future of our once great country.

Posted by: kctim at April 28, 2006 5:35 PM
Comment #144034

Rocky:

You want to blame someone, blame Madison Avenue, for all of our elected officials are equally guilty of the mess that we are in. While you’re at it let’s blame the American voting public for skipping the last dozen or so election cycles.

Oh, God knows, there’s plenty of Blame to go around, all right. As Thomas Jefferson paraphrased Joseph de Maistre: “In a democracy, The People will always get the sort of government they deserve…”

After all this screwing we’ve been taking didn’t just happen overnight.

No. It was carefully engineered, by Conservatives (Republicans and Dixiecrats alike), who systematically reduced the capability of Americans to be Educated, while at the same time trumpeting out Jingoism, Xenophobia, and Fear. The result: a nation of Marching Morons beholden to an Evil Cabal of puppetmasters who pull their strings with the Carrot (artificial) of the “American Dream” - “even You can be Bill Gates! (uh, No, you can’t) - and the Stick of Ossamasaddam, Gay Marriage, and Flag Burning. Their programme of Dumbing Down Americans and filling the empty space where their Brains used to be with Fear Of The Unknown is what has created the current Problem: both in terms of Voter Apathy and in terms of the travesties and abuses we see committed every day, now that they control every leg of the Governmental Triumvirate.

I choose to reason with people because that is the only way to actually win people over.

Tell that to:

- 31 Thousand Dead Redcoats and Hessians

- 2 Million Dead Imperial Japanese Troops

- 5 Million Dead German Troops

The result? You are not living in a Colony of England, Japan, or Germany.

There were those - like you - who argued against the threat of Force being used agaist King George III. Had the Founders of America listened to them, The United States Of America wouldn’t exist!

Let’s just take a look at Ourselves, shall we?

When in the Course of human Events,it becomes necessary for The People to dissolve the Political Bonds which have connected them with each other, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the conflict.

We hold these Truths to be Self-Evident, that all Men are created Equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain Unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness - that to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But, when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. Such has been the patient Sufferance of this Nation; and such is now the Necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The History of the present President of the United States is a History of repeated Injuries and Usurpations, all having in direct Object the Establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid World.

HE has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public Good.

HE has forbidden his Legislators to pass Laws of immediate and pressing Importance, unless suspended in their Operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

HE has refused to pass other Laws for the Accommodation of large Districts of People, unless those People would relinquish the Right of Representation in the Legislature, a Right inestimable to them, and formidable to Tyrants only.

THEY have called together Legislative Bodies at Places and times unusual, for the sole Purpose of meddling with the Personal Liberties of Private Citizens.

HE has ignored Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly Firmness his Invasions on the Rights of the People, and of Foreign Nations.

THEY have engaged for a long Time, ikn campaign after campaign, in an effort to cause others to be elected, than were properly voted for by the will of The People.

THEY, by failing to exercise their Legislative Powers, have returned to The People at large, the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the Dangers of Invasion from without, and the Convulsions within.

THEY have endeavoured to preserve the Natural Beauty of these States; for the Purpose of pecuniary gain alone; attempting to damage beyond repair the bounty of God within these Lands.

HE has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws duly enacted by the Legislative Houses, and by acceding to long established precedent by the Judiciary.

THEY have made Judges dependent on Their Will alone, for the Tenure of their Offices, and the Amount and Payment of their Salaries.

HE has erected a Multitude of new Offices, and sent hither Swarms of Officers who harrass our People, rather than benefit them, as duly commissioned.

HE has engaged in most scurrilous Spying, and deprivations of Ordinary Privacy, without the consent of our Legislatures or our Courts.

HE has affected to render the Military into an impoverished and destitute state, incapable of adequately fulfilling their mandate to provide Security for this nation, in futile and Unnecessary adventures.

HE has combined with others to subject us to a Jurisdiction foreign to our Constitution, and unacknowledged by our Laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

FOR spying upon Private Citizens, without regard for Due Process or Common Decency;

FOR protecting perfidious scoundrels, by means of Obstructing Justice, from Punishment for any Crimes which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

FOR diminishing and invalidating all Respect due to this nation, from all other Parts of the World:

FOR imposing his Will, his Ignorance, and indeed his very Presence, upon us without our Consent:

FOR depriving us, in many Cases, of the Benefits of Trial by Jury:

FOR transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for supposed Offences:

FOR taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Government:

HE has plundered our Seas, ravaged our Coasts, spurned all Help for our Towns, and destroyed the Lives of our People.

HE is, at this Time, transporting large Armies to compleat the Works of Death, Desolation, and Tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and Perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous Ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized Nation.

IN every stage of these Oppressions we have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble Terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated Injury. A Prince, whose Character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the Ruler of a free People.

NOR have we been wanting in Attentions to our Conservative Brethren. We have warned them from Time to Time of Attempts by their Legislature to extend an unwarrantable Jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the Circumstances of our Founding and our Hardly Won Liberties. We have appealed to their native Justice and Magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the Ties of our common Kindred to disavow these Usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our Connections and Correspondence. They too have been deaf to the Voice of Justice and of Consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the Necessity, which denounces our Comity, and hold them, as we hold the rest of Mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace, Friends.

WE, therefore, the People of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the World for the Rectitude of our Intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of this Nation, solemnly Publish and Declare, That these United States are, and of Right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT OF CONSERVATIVE ABUSE; that they are absolved from all Allegiance to the Republican Party, and that all political Connection between them and such Conservative Republicans, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as a FREE PEOPLE, we have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which a GOVERNMENT OF THE PEOPLE may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

You’d be surprised at how little I altered: a word here, a phrase there - not much at all, really.

The CONCEPT is unchanged in any way. Just as Jefferson warned us, the tree of Liberty must be watered, from time to time, with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants.

They who would sacrifice Essential Liberty for a measure of Temporary Security shall not have - and do not deserve - either.

Posted by: Betty Burke at April 28, 2006 11:51 PM
Comment #144060

Betty,

Now, since Marquis de Lafayette has been dead what, 200 years, who do you suppose is our back up?

52% voted Republican in the last election.

Just how many of them do you think we can count on?

Do we look to the Timothy McVeigh’s of the world?
Sorry, I’m not aligning myself with anyone that kills innocent folks just to make a point.

So, do we look in Idaho for all the people that are still pissed over Waco?

I think not.

“Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.”
Issac Asimov

We need to work from within, and help those that dissagree to see the error of their ways, and you can’t acomplish that with violence.

Logic, dear lady, will win hearts and minds.

Vengence and violence will get you nowhere.

Posted by: Rocky at April 29, 2006 1:39 AM
Comment #144068
Andre M. Hernandez wrote: … now we see through this and realize we were willing participants in the B.S. because we were following party line nonsense that has screwed our government up.
Yes, I admit to being totally suckered, and all too fond of wallowing in the petty partisan warfare that politicians love to fuel.
Andre M. Hernandez wrote: I think that I and many of us have been educated through shared thoughts and ideas.

Definitely! It is very educational.


Posted by: d.a.n at April 29, 2006 2:03 AM
Comment #144072

Betty,

Oh, and BTW, sedition can get you two years in Leavenworth, and I am sure there will be lots of folks interested in there.

Posted by: Rocky at April 29, 2006 2:12 AM
Comment #144189

Betty Burke,
it is amazing how many of the complaints against George 3, are also applicable to our very own obnoxious drunk George W.

Posted by: ohrealy at April 29, 2006 5:12 PM
Comment #144219

Rocky asked, reasonably enough:

Now, since Marquis de Lafayette has been dead what, 200 years, who do you suppose is our back up?

Easy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margrethe_II_of_Denmark

“Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.” Issac Asimov

So - according to Rocky - the following people were Incompetent:

Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Patrick Henry, John Hancock, Thomas Paine, Samuel Adams, Josiah Bartlett, Abraham Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Dwight D. Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, and William Jefferson Clinton

because their Last Refuge was Violence.

Good job, Rocky: obviously that makes Perfect Sense.

What I asked you (and what you dodged, Jack-like), was:

Let’s say that, instead of America and the World, Karl Rove and Dick Cheney were gang-raping Your Mother. Would you be so sanguine then? Would you engage them in Polite Debate? Have a Moderate Discourse with them, in an attempt to get them to stop?

And what you answered was:

“Emotion will only get you so far and then you either use violence or logic. I choose logic.”

This does not endear you to either me or to your Mother, no matter how fine a woman she is/was. Trust me on this.

|:o[

Now, I’m not a Raving LoOnY “militia” fanatic, nor an Urban Revolutionary. What I am is a righteously pissed-off American Patriot - of the Old School type. And when we see National Elections rigged, so that a Coup d’Etat takes place in the “Land Of Freedom,” what recourse do The People have but to do what our own Declaration Of Independence and Constitution tell us we should do?

I’m sorry, but I’ll stick with:

Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. … When a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government.

It was good enough for the Founders, and it’s good enough for me.


ohrealy:

Yeah, it’s Sad and Amazing, isn’t it? You should also compare the details of Richard Nixon’s Articles Of Impeachment with the offences committed under BushCo., inc.:

http://watergate.info/impeachment/impeachment-articles.shtml

Posted by: Betty Burke at April 29, 2006 7:06 PM
Comment #144229

Betty,

So - according to Rocky - the following people were Incompetent:

“Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Patrick Henry, John Hancock, Thomas Paine, Samuel Adams, Josiah Bartlett, Abraham Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Dwight D. Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, and William Jefferson Clinton”

Wow, 5 out of 15 actually fought on the battlefield. A whole 33%!

Betty you make me dizzy with your spinning and misrepresentation of the facts.

“Let’s say that, instead of America and the World, Karl Rove and Dick Cheney were gang-raping Your Mother. Would you be so sanguine then? Would you engage them in Polite Debate? Have a Moderate Discourse with them, in an attempt to get them to stop?”

Lady (and I use that term loosely), I have been posting here for nearly 3 years and that is the all time lamest question I have ever read here.
I will not dignify it with any further answer.


“Now, I’m not a Raving LoOnY “militia” fanatic, nor an Urban Revolutionary. What I am is a righteously pissed-off American Patriot - of the Old School type.”

Oh please, what have you done, other than run off your fingers at the computer?

Oh, BTW, Queen Margrethe II is going to look mighty fine in cammos and a M-16, or is she the M1A1 type?

Posted by: Rocky at April 29, 2006 8:27 PM
Comment #144259

Betty,

“Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Patrick Henry, John Hancock, Thomas Paine, Samuel Adams, Josiah Bartlett, Abraham Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Dwight D. Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, and William Jefferson Clinton”

Let’s revisit these guys and see if they were the violent guys you say they were.

Jefferson, gentleman farmer,
http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/tj3.html
“Freckled and sandy-haired, rather tall and awkward, Jefferson was eloquent as a correspondent, but he was no public speaker. In the Virginia House of Burgesses and the Continental Congress, he contributed his pen rather than his voice to the patriot cause. As the “silent member” of the Congress, Jefferson, at 33, drafted the Declaration of Independence. In years following he labored to make its words a reality in Virginia. Most notably, he wrote a bill establishing religious freedom, enacted in 1786.”

Hostile, maybe, violent no.

George Washington,
http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/gw1.html
“Born in 1732 into a Virginia planter family, he learned the morals, manners, and body of knowledge requisite for an 18th century Virginia gentleman.
He pursued two intertwined interests: military arts and western expansion. At 16 he helped survey Shenandoah lands for Thomas, Lord Fairfax. Commissioned a lieutenant colonel in 1754, he fought the first skirmishes of what grew into the French and Indian War. The next year, as an aide to Gen. Edward Braddock, he escaped injury although four bullets ripped his coat and two horses were shot from under him.
From 1759 to the outbreak of the American Revolution, Washington managed his lands around Mount Vernon and served in the Virginia House of Burgesses. Married to a widow, Martha Dandridge Custis, he devoted himself to a busy and happy life. But like his fellow planters, Washington felt himself exploited by British merchants and hampered by British regulations. As the quarrel with the mother country grew acute, he moderately but firmly voiced his resistance to the restrictions.
When the Second Continental Congress assembled in Philadelphia in May 1775, Washington, one of the Virginia delegates, was elected Commander in Chief of the Continental Army. On July 3, 1775, at Cambridge, Massachusetts, he took command of his ill-trained troops and embarked upon a war that was to last six grueling years.”

Wow, also a gentleman farmer that went to war to serve the newborn country. Violent? I don’t think so.

Let’s stop here for a moment and reflect.

Every one of those that you named from the begining of our country went to war because that was their only option. They couldn’t vote to change their government, because there was no such thing yet, and they had exausted all other avenues.
By the way you left out John Adams.

Did you actually understand the Asimov quote?

Violence is always the last resort, always.

We still have other options.

Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2006 12:31 AM
Comment #144449

Sweetie, don’t patronise Betty and condescend to her - or she’ll kick you really hard right in your smug little XY-Pair…

Secondly, the Asimov quote is absurd: every one of the persons I listed lent their authority and their will to Bloody War. Whether they ever held a rifle in their hands is meaningless: a General or a President can order the deaths of Thousands with the stroke of a Pen - does that mean they are any Less Dead than those killed mano-a-mano with a bayonet? I don’t think so. Hell, Jefferson wrote for years after the Revolutionary War had been won that Armed Revolution might be necessary every five to ten years in this nation, just to keep the Governed on top of their Government! Your “logic” on this issue is the sort one normally encounters from a Right Wing MasterDebater, and it ill suits you.

The pollyanna “truthiness” of your stance on this will never crush the Truth out of my position: you see, I choose my positions based on the Truth of them - not the Other Way Around…

Posted by: Betty Burke at May 1, 2006 2:19 AM
Comment #144493

Betty,

That is such crap.

Hve fun storming the castle.

Posted by: Rocky at May 1, 2006 10:15 AM
Comment #144606

Storming the Castle is never Fun. (That’s why it’s a Castle, remember?)

Sometimes, though, it is Necessary.

As I have already said in this thread: I am not calling for Immediate Revolution; I am saying that it is still “on the table,” as our “leaders” in Washington are so fond of saying. It has been On The Table ever since the Founders (God bless them) insisted upon writing what they did in the creation of this country! Don’t blame the Declaration Of Independence or the Second Amendment on me (not that I find anything wrong with them in the first place)!

If we cannot use Elections to alter an oppressive, anti-constitutional government, then we are left with only the tools provided to us by messrs. Jefferson, et al. And if you’re too busy singing Kum-Ba-Yah to the Nazis in a forlorn effort at Appeasment, then I guess it’s just up to the rest of us - who’ve learnt our Lessons Of History - to save the American Ideal without you.

Have “fun” diddling while Freedom burns.

Posted by: Betty Burke at May 1, 2006 4:40 PM
Comment #144626

Betty,

“And if you’re too busy singing Kum-Ba-Yah to the Nazis in a forlorn effort at Appeasment, then I guess it’s just up to the rest of us - who’ve learnt our Lessons Of History - to save the American Ideal without you.”

Could you possibly be more pompous, or condescending?

Appeasement?

Give it a rest, will ya?

I’ll join in your little war when I see you go in first.


Posted by: Rocky at May 1, 2006 6:10 PM
Comment #145218
Could you possibly be more pompous, or condescending?

Perhaps - if I were willing to follow your lead…

Which I am not. You would have been loads of fun in 1776 - or in 1939, for that matter.

There are always cowards and dishonourable poltroons who will allow Oppressors to take over without lifting a finger.

History is, as you call it, “Pompous!”

Do you know what the Root of the word “Pompous” is, you smug Cock-Robin?

Here’s the Dictionary Definition of it for you:

Pomp (n.) Dignified or magnificent display; Splendor.

When men of substance - Jeffersons and DeValeras and Churchills and the like - were about Fighting Oppression, there were those Lazy, Smug, Cowards who sat back and said, in response to their speeches and their writings: “Oh, how pompous! How condescending! Surely, there are other means than conflict!” And wrung their hands in fear, and disdained the clarion call.

You are one such, I see.

Call me “Pompous” and “Condescending” will you?

Very well. I call you Fool, and Appeaser, and Poltroon.

Would you like a Definiton of that as well? It is a Base Coward: a Coward’s Coward, who combines trembling, weak-kneed, breeks-pissing Fear with Laziness and Self-Interest, to form a most despicable sight.

History is as full of them as it is of the Great Ones.

And History is merely the existence of the world and the men upon it, from day to day and year to year.

If you had been a Colonial Governor during 1776, either America would be flying the Union Jack right now, or you would have been sent packing off to England with all the other (S)lim(e)y Royalists after the war was over!

Go ahead, chit your chatter with the freaking Fascists and condemn the people who post here with both Righteous Fury and the Truth on their side: your sort of limp-wristed Appeaser passes into the dust of Time and is little remembered, nor greatly missed.

Posted by: Betty Burke at May 3, 2006 9:59 PM
Comment #145574

Betty,

Boy, you sure wore out Rogerts with that response.

You have taken the art of the diatribe to a new low, which for you is an achievement.
But, if your point was to piss me off, your attempt failed miserably.

Coward?
Oh, please, can’t you do better than that?

Throughout history there have always been the rash fools that rushed in and got their asses kicked, and then there were those that planned first, and then chose their time and place to fight.
Washington and Eisenhower were both of the later.

While I wouldn’t dare to compare my self to either of these great men, I do know something about strategy.

I choose my battles with care, because I wish to be certain of the outcome. I distain rashness. I like to win.

You have made quite a few outrageous claims about me, all of which are false. The first of which was the claim that I thought your collection of heroes incompetent.
There is a time for talking and a time for fighting. All of the men on your list knew the difference, and apparently you don’t.

People like you are dangerous.

You needlessly insult people like me, because I don’t fit into your narrow definition of what you think a patriot should be or how we should act.

I could never go into battle with a leader like you.
I could never trust you with my life because you are rash, and needlessly violent (a point I gathered from your rape senario), and as a result, I could never trust your decisions.

Yes, I think and observe and talk first, and act later, that is the way I have been taught to deal with people.
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
This has worked very well for me so far, and I see no reason to change just to make people like you feel better.
Sure, I have made my fair share of mistakes, and I am equally sure I will make more, but never because I was unprepared, or because I misjudged my opponent.

Have a life.

Posted by: Rocky at May 5, 2006 3:09 AM
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