Democrats & Liberals Archives

Republican Elitism

Every day, Republicans lace into Democrats as elitist. I think they do that because these super-rich, super-religious and super-anti-intellectual people are so smug in their self-righteousness - so elitist - that they believe everyone else suffers from the same hubris as they do. Democrats are not concerned with any elite group. They believe that all citizens should be treated the same. With Republicans, however, elitism is at its core.

We all know how the Bush Administration favors the super-rich. Just take a look at the major pieces of legislation the Republican Congresss passed this year that favor bankers, energy companies and pharmaceutical companies, and then look at the billions it threw away on "earmarks."

We all know how the Bush Administration favors the super-religious. Bush has established a faith-based regime. It's latest action is to favor abstinence-only before marriage, this time with a twist: it defines marriage as being between man and a woman. In other words, if you are gay you are never to touch another person of the same sex.

We all know how the Bush Administration favors the super-anti-intellectuals. It disregards science in favor of its own superstitions. It disregards recommendations from scientists. It seems to prefer "intelligent design" to evolution.

But none of us realized to what degrading depths the Bush Administration would take its righteousness, its snobbism, its elitism. But this is what happened during one of the most religious events: Easter.

I'm referring to the Easter egg roll on the White House lawn. It is but a custom, a chance to be cheerful, an opportunity to entertain kids. Every past year, parents were encouraged to obtain free tickets so their kids could participate in this great fun event.

Well, this year a few hundred same-sex parents who had adopted kids decided to wait on line all night long in order to get tickets. And they were very happy when they received the tickets. Their happiness was tarnished, however, when they noted that the time of admission on their tickets was 12 noon and not 8 AM when the event was scheduled to start.

What happened? The Bush Administration could not countenance having gays and lesbians participating in an event together with the elites. Yet, they dare not rescind the policy of first come first serve for tickets. So they conceived the brilliant (to an elitist, that is) idea of a later entry time for the rif-raff. This way the opening ceremony and the attendant pictures need not be contaminated by gays and lesbians.

The Bush Administraton said that the early tickets were for "volunteers." There must have been thousands of "volunteers."

This is Republican elitism at the most petty. But elitism is always petty. What makes these super-rich, super-religious, super-anti-intellectuals so arrogant that they know they are always right? So right that they cannot even mingle with those they disdain even for an event like an egg roll?

Democrats frown on such action. We believe that what Republicans did to the gay and lesbian families is atrocious. We believe that all Americans, regardless of what they do privately, must be treated with the same consideration. We believe in the common good for the common man.

Republicans calling Democrats elitist is part of the Republican propaganda strategy. It should be obvious to all, however, that Republicans are the real elitists.

Posted by Paul Siegel at April 17, 2006 6:05 PM
Comment #141275

Paul, I share much of your frustration with the Republican Ruling Class (RRC), but I wouldn’t call these people “super-religious.” A few of the super rich may be church goers, but I very much doubt most hold the same views (or even the same values) as the majority of religious conservatives. Rather, the RRC simply leverage the vote of the religious conservatives for their own purposes: reducing income tax rates, avoiding a wealth tax, advocating a flat tax, dismantling inheritance taxes and, more than anything else, maintaining political power.

My sense is that the RCC doesn’t hold “intellectual elites” in true disdain. That’s a smoke screen, a kind of propaganda to be aired on AM radio and FOX stations. The RCC is, of course, masterful at such propaganda, but no one should actually believe that they hold the same views as the people they secretly consider the “religious rabble.” Someday that rabble may wake up and actually vote based on Christian values. Until then, we shouldn’t confuse the issue.

Posted by: Reed Sanders at April 17, 2006 7:14 PM
Comment #141276

Do you have a link to this in the press? I have gone out online - and have read several articles, but nothing mentions this issue. I can imagine it’s true, but just trying to follow up…

Posted by: tony at April 17, 2006 7:17 PM
Comment #141277


I’ll agree that if the White House knowlingly excluded the children of same-sex couples from the egg roll that it is atrocious. I have no use for the anti-gay quasi-platform of the Republican party.

However, you dexteriously avoid all of the reasons why many of us feel that the Democrats are elitist. The Democrats have been peopled by rich, white, men for the most part for decades. Those same men have consistently forwarded ideas that created and prolonged an underclass whom they were happy to finance in the name of the white-man’s burden. They are also happy to preach to the middle-class why their beliefs are wrong and that they should trust only them to tell them what’s right.

Now let’s look at the groups that you just claimed the Bush administration championed over the “common man”:

The “super-rich,” by those you mean those that receive some benefit from banks, energy, insurance, and pharmaceutical companies. At least a majority of which are in a balanced retirement portfolio held by anyone in a pension plan or 401k mutual fund. Not exactly an elite group.

The “super-religious” or by your measure - Homophobic bigots. Not my favorite people. But the truth is there are more of those than the opposite. Not exactly an elite group.

The “super-anti-intellectuals” - not sure of how you go from being a member of just the “anti-intellectual” group to the “super-anti-intellectual” group, but according to your measure it is disregarding science for superstition. Based on the number of web-sites for astrology, and fortune telling, I’m guess that there are quite a few believers out there. I’m not. I believe in evolution and global warming, but I think that makes me part of an elite group not the other way around.

You could have more correctly accused Bush of pandering, but that would have not had the added choice of removing a valid criticism of the Democratic Party. Why go for one, when you can kill two birds with one stone? I understand the desire. The fact is it isn’t honest.

Democrats have for so long tried to rebel against the labels that Republicans put on them. It hasn’t worked. It’s time they start looking to the gay community for pointers. It’s actually ok to be an elitist. There are good reasons to do it. It’s Ok to be liberal. There are good reasons to do it. I won’t agree with all of the positions, but at least it would be intellectually honest. The new mantra for the Democratic Party should be “We here were elitist, get use to it! We’re here were liberal get used to it!”

Once that happens we can dispense with the labels and get to the issues.

Posted by: Rob at April 17, 2006 7:26 PM
Comment #141278

There are intellectuals and elites on both sides of the political atmosphere. Whether it be the demonic mastermind Carl Rove for the Republicans or the liberal elite Ivy League grads, both sides have their share of the same breed.

Posted by: greenstuff at April 17, 2006 7:34 PM
Comment #141280

Arianna huffington, barbara boxer, feinstein, john heinz-kerry…

Let’s stop using the worn out label that Repubs=rich=evil and democrats=poor=want-to-help-everyone.

Who benefitted more from the new tax laws? Bush or Kerry?

I am so tired of this stupid played out argument. Im conservative, and im a hard working upper middle class, tax paying citizen. Wasnt born with a silver spoon in my mouth. my parents worked 9-5 jobs, i payed for my own college education. I work my ass off now, and dont feel like giving 60% of it away! does that make me an evil elitist? If so, then you can count all of our founding fathers in that group.

If I had the choice between identifying between John Adams or John Kerry, George Washington or Joe Stalin, Monroe or Mao…Ill take the evil-elitist brand any day of the friggin week thank-you-very-much.

Posted by: b0mbay at April 17, 2006 7:38 PM
Comment #141283


Careful on the Adams vs. Kerry reference. Kerry is much closer to the elitist than Adams.

Posted by: Rob at April 17, 2006 7:41 PM
Comment #141284

what happened here was brilliant the gay and lesbian families wanted to make a political statement out of a long standing non-political event and they got exactly what they came for an opportunity to have their children play on the property of the white house, take your protest and do it in a proper place and time, no worries you’ll find someone to put you on the evening it just won’t be at the expense of children.

Posted by: Peter at April 17, 2006 7:42 PM
Comment #141285

what happened here was brilliant the gay and lesbian families wanted to make a political statement out of a long standing non-political event and they got exactly what they came for an opportunity to have their children play on the property of the white house, take your protest and do it in a proper place and time, no worries you’ll find someone to put you on the evening news it just won’t be at the expense of children.

Posted by: Peter at April 17, 2006 7:45 PM
Comment #141287

but kerry portrays himself as a man of the people - im here for the little guy. he could give a rats ass about the little guy. he is a career politicain and a rich one at that. not saying rich is bad, but when he tries to wave the republican-evil-empire-bunch-a-rich-bastards-that-dont-give-a-squat-about-the-average-joe…

I have a fundamental problem with that. I have more of a problem with the sorry lots who actually buy that crap.

Posted by: b0mbay at April 17, 2006 7:50 PM
Comment #141301

I wrote a post a while back with links to the biggest and richest donors and which parties they gave money.

An interesting side note, if you look at millionaire">”>millionaire candidates you find that we have both Dems and Republicans. That is not the interesting part. The interesting thing is ALL BUT ONE LOST. I guess money can’t by love of the electorate.

I don’t know if Republicans are actually richer than Dems, but since success in life is related to intelligence and hard work, I suppose we are. Good for us if it’s true. Everything being equal, it is better to be successful than not. Why appologize for being better?

Posted by: Jack at April 17, 2006 8:23 PM
Comment #141302

Sorry about the millionaire link link.

Posted by: Jack at April 17, 2006 8:25 PM
Comment #141304

One more time. This is the link to millionare candidates. All but one are losers.

Posted by: Jack at April 17, 2006 8:27 PM
Comment #141324

Give one valid reason, with out using the usual punish the rich crap, why there should be a tax on wealth.

Both parties are elitist. The Republicans are rich elitist and the Democrats are rich elitist. and neither one gives a crap about the working class. If just one of them did, the working class wouldn’t be getting shafted the way it is.

Posted by: Ron Brown at April 17, 2006 9:34 PM
Comment #141325

Regarding Pauls description of us elitists:

what legistation do you want passed? something favoring guest workers,queers,or mabey abortion doctors? Whats wrong with abstinence? It works 100% of the time. If you are going to legalize a union between homos why not a guy and his best friend (his dog)?As to evolution Come on only morons question God. Any thinking person knows global warming is junk science. Touch another person of the same sex; how discusting. If you dim wits had not in your zeal passed antidiscrimanation laws favoring the misfits we wouldn,t be faced with this filthy lifestyle. last but not least the egg roll. I agree they should be allowed to roll eggs, thats as close as they will ever get to one as they certainly cant produce any of their own. How did these weirdos get childern in the first place? mabey it was abstinence? Not… Your words have confirmed my choice to vote for Bush.

Posted by: commanderjc at April 17, 2006 9:34 PM
Comment #141332

Elitists are in both parties. Most of us aren’t even party affiliated. Hell, we’re too poor to party. We have to work, as opposed to Jack, who is smarter and better than the rest of us. Many didn’t get an inheritance, steal our way to wealth or marry rich.

I have yet to see an entrepreneur workrd harder than his employees. They all say they do. If they do, then why do they believe in hiding behind confidentiality and private contracts? Shhh! Someone might let the secret out that we’re screwing them! Don’t tell! You’ll get a bonus this week.

I worked for a Palestinian(his father actually,he was born in Chicago)who I happen to know was fired from one of his previous employers for incompetence. He proclaimed to me one day that he was going to have to vote Republican, now, because of those tax and spend democrats. Actually most of the local politicians who handed out fat contracts were Republican( i.e.corporate welfare). In that same time period , he grabbed one of the secretaries from behind by her boobs and told her he was a rich man, when they were alone, of course. He fired her later, and then had a child with his wife whom he had told me could not have children. Palestinian friends explained to me that Arab men cannot admit to their own weaknesses and failings.I have worked for numerous engineers like this.

Not every entremanure, as I like to call them, is an asshole, but many are.

Posted by: gergle at April 17, 2006 9:54 PM
Comment #141337

what legistation do you want passed? something favoring guest workers,queers,or mabey abortion doctors?

How about legislation that doesn’t allow the government or special interest groups tell other people what to do in their bedrooms or with their own bodies?

Whats wrong with abstinence? It works 100% of the time.

Get real buddy, humans are sexual beings. A 16 year old with knowledge and a condom is much less dangerous than a stupid 16 year old without one.

If you are going to legalize a union between homos why not a guy and his best friend (his dog)?

Where do you come up with this load of #@!% ? You are confusing homosexuality with bestiality, I have no idea how though. However this proves a point that some people can’t stand to know there are different people with different preferences existing in the world.

As to evolution Come on only morons question God. Any thinking person knows global warming is junk science.


Touch another person of the same sex; how discusting. If you dim wits had not in your zeal passed antidiscrimanation laws favoring the misfits we wouldn,t be faced with this filthy lifestyle.

Again we visit homophobia and laws that don’t allow the government to dictate how one might conduct his/her life.

I didn’t quote or respond to the finale of commanderjc’s post, too much of the same, I hate to be repetitive.

Posted by: MyPetGoat at April 17, 2006 10:19 PM
Comment #141340

COMMANDERJC, no one could possibly mistake you for an ELITIST because it appears you have neither the economic resources to afford a dictionary nor the intelligence to use that free spell check tool built into your PC. That’s why this “queer homo” had a nice laugh when I read your posting. Dripping with ignorance and unfounded hatred, it is no shock to me that you would vote for Bush and actually confess your continued pride in that decision. I’d attempt to tell you why you made a stupid choice but that would require you and your ilk to pull your heads out of your collective asses and join the rest of us here in the real world.

Posted by: moveleft at April 17, 2006 10:36 PM
Comment #141341


It was a joke. Besides, you are the guys who claim we are all rich. In fact, that was the whole intent of the post.

Just for the record, I inherited almost nothing. My wife was a farm girl with seven siblings. It was a small family farm. Her father sold. He is still alive, and we expect to pay for his nursing home care, not inherit from him. I stole some things as a youth, butmore from peer pressure & nothing big. In my adult life I have never stolen anything or knowingly cheated on my taxes or business dealings. Do you know many Republicans? Do you find them more dishonest or less generous than the Dems you know? My experience is that honesty does not follow party lines.

I admit that when I go to a country that has a restricted currency, I do trade on the black market because I figure it is my duty to screw the tyrants.

Posted by: Jack at April 17, 2006 10:58 PM
Comment #141343

A recent Pew Research Survey found that opposition to Gay Marriage is declining. Which gives me hope that the Republican’s desperate ploy to use such social wedge issues to distract Mid Term voters will fail.

Posted by: Bert M. Caradine at April 17, 2006 11:22 PM
Comment #141344

This whole “Republicans are super rich elitists” crap is nothing but a leftist fantasy.
There are some super rich Reps just as there are some super rich (and elitist) Dems. Kerry, Edwards and Kennedy come immediately to mind.
I know a lot of members of both parties and very few of either are rich or even upper middle class.

So, you worked for a guy whose asshole son groped his secretary. I suppose you think this makes you an authority on running a business. I can tell you it doesn’t. If you think entrepreneurs don’t work hard you’re clueless. Running a small business takes a lot of hard work that the employees never see. To grow a business to the point of being able to hire employees is a very difficult and risky undertaking.
You say you’ve worked for “numerous engineers like this”. Hmmm, could this be sour grapes from someone who has a hard time holding a job?

Posted by: traveller at April 17, 2006 11:27 PM
Comment #141346

It seems elitist is often a fancy way for somebody to angrily say “Do you think you’re better than me?” It can allow anybody to question whatever wisdom they want to, simply because they feel they’re being imposed upon. Don’t like the idea of global warming? Fine, then, the scientists are liberal elites. Don’t like the leanings of the TV shows and movies? Fine, then, the filmmakers and actors are liberal elites Don’t like some person’s confident assertion of their opinion? Fine, they’re an elitist.

Folks never answer the complementary question: why do they think their idea is better than somebody elses.

Global Warming, I can safely say, is better proven and documented than its opposite conclusion. It doesn’t matter what you THINK the right answer is. If simply THINKING something was the right answer was enough, science would be unnecessary. The necessity of science is figuring out where you are wrong.

Many who try and use the limits of scientific knowledge and methods claim absolute certainty about a subject, while using an argument of uncertainty to knock theories they don’t like. Little do they realize that any uncertainty works against them, too. You can’t appeal to the limits of scientific models about trends in the climate, and then claim your conclusion is the real trend. That’s the true junk science: science that is bent towards egocentric conclusions rather than humble inquiry.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at April 17, 2006 11:38 PM
Comment #141350

You can find the story at planet out news. or

They snubbed the GLBT kids. Pricks.

Posted by: black Cherry at April 18, 2006 12:01 AM
Comment #141354

Regarding Super Rich Republicans and Another Example of Government Inefficiency:

Hello, I’d like to speak to someone in the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, Customer Service Department please. … I am not getting my Republican stipend. I also don’t own my own buisiness which can be used to oppress others so that I might live off the sweat of their brows. … Yes, I enjoyed my tax cut, but there were a bunch of poor people getting the exact same tax cut as me. I thought this was supposed to be exclusive. … Yes, I’m sure I’m Repulican. At least I think so. The ballot was very confusing, but so far I haven’t received any subsidies or transfer payments, so I pretty sure that I’m signed up as Republican. … Well, something’s obviously wrong because I am told everyday that special benefits and perks are being distributed to the other Republicans.

Click … Damn government inefficiency!

Posted by: goodkingned at April 18, 2006 12:20 AM
Comment #141357

You’ll get a nice bill, though, on those tax cuts. Your tax cut is being financed by the issuance of bonds, which means not only do you have to pay for your tax cut eventually, you’re paying more for the privilege.

Does this strike you as efficient?

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at April 18, 2006 12:26 AM
Comment #141362


So you are for a totalitarian dictatorship, where the government tells it’s citizens how to live their lives?

Posted by: JayJay Snow at April 18, 2006 12:46 AM
Comment #141363


Stephen’s sense of humor is suffering total failue. There are three humorous remarks and one slightly snide sally contained in the above.

The only way to see humor is by looking for it. If you don’t look for it, you won’t find it.

Posted by: goodkingned at April 18, 2006 12:48 AM
Comment #141373

Black Cherry as in Goldfrapp? I’m fanatically devoted to Alison.

Posted by: phx8 at April 18, 2006 2:24 AM
Comment #141376

I don’t think Paul was saying that all Republicans are super-rich, super-religious, and super-ant-intellectual, but rather most Republicans would fit one if not all of those descriptions.

No one is denying there are rich Democrats and poor Republicans, but how can anyone deny that Republican policies favor the wealthy. Who really benefits from the removal of the dividend tax? It’s not the guy who has a couple hundred shares in a 401K since those dividends were tax exempt before this cut, rather it’s the person who owns thousands or millions of shares to the point where they can live off of dividends alone? Now, I can hear righties crying that’s double taxation! But remember many corporations have found ways to dodge taxes on their income.

Republicans patted themselves on the back for being friends of the people by passing the precription drug bill, when we all know it was just a big giveaway to the pharmaceutical industry. If they weren’t the party for the wealthy then why didn’t they allow the government to negotiate prices with these businesses? It’s just another case of handing out our tax dollars to corporations.

Here is a question for all those conservatives out there. Why have the last three Republican Presidents allowed massive deficits each year they were in office? Is it merely a case of shortsitedness in looking for immediate benefits by ignoring long-term costs? Or, is there a much more sinister agenda going on here?

I propose the true reason for the Republicans insistence on running up massive debt is to bankrupt this country. This gives them the excuse to eliminate all social welfare programs, and reduce government spending to just military and infrastructure spending. Large multi-national corporations have already moved a considerable amount of their workforce to foreign countries, and the migration of jobs will not be limited to just manufacturing and services, but soon key R&D jobs and other profesional jobs will be done in India and China as their citizens become more educated. Revenue for these companies will not be adversely effected as the emerging Asian markets will overtake the U.S. in terms of purchasing power. Then our Republican controlled government will eliminate those troublesome workers rights laws like minimum wage and collective bargaining in order to bring more jobs back to our country. Then our large population of unemployed and uneducated (due to cutbacks in education spending) will be in the position of the current working class in China, just as they will be enjoying a burgeoning middle class like what we have now. And when the Chinese and Indian middle classes become too big and start demanding a greater quality of life the rug will be pulled out from under them and the cycle will swing back our way, over and over again. All the while the wealthy shareholding ruling class will increase their possesion of wealth. How could something like this scenario happen? It would be because of a group of super-anti-intellectual and super-religious Republicans were duped into handing all power over to a group of super-rich Republicans.

Posted by: bushflipflops at April 18, 2006 3:02 AM
Comment #141378


Every day, Republicans lace into Democrats as elitist. I think they do that because these super-rich, super-religious and super-anti-intellectual people are so smug in their self-righteousness - so elitist - that they believe everyone else suffers from the same hubris as they do. Democrats are not concerned with any elite group. They believe that all citizens should be treated the same. With Republicans, however, elitism is at its core.

Maybe this is a projection thing going on? Or maybe it’s just wish fullfillment?

If we want snobbery and disdain, we certainly have to go to the left for heaping loads full. Redneck redstate voters… they don’t know what’s good for them… ignorant… voting against their own self-interest…

These are examples of actual leftist snobbery. Your example of Republican elitism is that they vote against new social programs. (Except they don’t! Today’s republicans do practically everything you want them too! Spend, spend, spend.)

Here’s an interesting article by one of these democrats you’re talking about who are not concerned with any elite group:
“I cringed as my young son recited the Pledge of Allegiance. But who was I to question his innocent trust in a nation I long ago lost faith in?”

Here’s part of the introduction:

Our family first arrived in Narrowsburg in 2000, as city people hunting for a cheap house. For barely $50,000 we were able to buy the “weekend house” we thought would complete our metropolitan existence. But soon after we closed on the home, we moved to Paris, spurred by the serendipitous arrival of a book contract. When our European idyll ended after two years, and with tenants still subletting our city apartment, we moved into the Narrowsburg house. After growing accustomed to the French social system — with its cheap medicine, generous welfare, short workweek and plentiful child care — life back in depressed upstate New York felt especially harsh. We’d never planned to get involved in the life of the town, nor had it ever occurred to us that we might send our son to the Narrowsburg School. But suddenly we were upstate locals, with a real stake in the community.

In the fall of 2004, we enrolled our son in kindergarten at the Narrowsburg School. The school’s reputation among our friends, other “second-home owners,” was not good. “Do they even have a curriculum?” sniffed one New York City professor who kept a weekend home nearby. Clearly, Narrowsburg School was not a traditional first step on the path to Harvard. As far as I could tell, though, no one besides us had ever set foot inside the building. When my husband and I investigated, we were pleasantly surprised. The school had just been renovated and was clean, airy, cheerful. The nurse and the principal knew every one of the 121 children by name. Our son would be one of just 12 little white children in a sunny kindergarten class taught by an enthusiastic woman with eighteen years’ experience teaching five-year-olds.

Yes, those Republicans are so smug in their self-righteousness and Liberals so concerned about the ‘common’ people. You know, the ones near their “weekend house”.

Now it has been almost a year since my son scampered down the steps of Narrowsburg Central Rural School for the last time. We’ve since returned to the city, driven back to urban life more by adult boredom than our children’s lack of educational opportunities. Our son is enrolled in a well-rated K-5 public school on Manhattan’s Upper West Side; not surprisingly, the Pledge of Allegiance is no longer part of his morning routine. Come to think of it, and I could be wrong, I’ve never seen a flag on the premises.

[Get this next sentence…]

My husband and I realized, though, that Narrowsburg did more than mold our boy into a patriot. He can, it turns out — despite the warnings of other city parents — read at a level twice that of his new peers. Since we returned to the city, he has learned how to ride a bike, long for an Xbox, practiced a few new swear words and, somehow, learned the meaning of “sexy.” He has pretty much stopped favoring red, white and blue.

How soon childish national pride is shed, I sometimes think now, and not a little wistfully. Only once it was gone did I realize that, after our initial discomfort, my husband and I had begun to see our son’s patriotism as a badge of innocence. His faith was a reminder to us that the reason we are devastated by the war in Iraq and the Bush presidency is that we too love America. We too want to believe in its potential for good and brotherhood.

Yes, for good old-fashioned patriotism and down-to-earth equality with the common man you can’t beat a liberal. Nope.

Too bad they couldn’t keep that quaint little schoolhouse run by elite Republicans snobs open. Read the article.

By the way I grew up in a trailer part of my life. How about you?

Posted by: esimonson at April 18, 2006 3:43 AM
Comment #141379

Actually, when I re-read this Blue column post a moment ago I realized just how much hate and vitriol it contained. It’s nothing but name calling and hate against Republicans.

I’m disappointed in you Paul.

It doesn’t offer even a single source. There is not one corroborated fact in this post.

So much for bringing people together. Is this what Republicans are to emulate if they want to be uniters and not dividers?

Posted by: esimonson at April 18, 2006 3:56 AM
Comment #141399

Traveller and Jack,

I actually know a lot of poor Republicans, too. I know some wealthy people who are very honest. It takes all kinds.

Am I a disgruntled employee who can’t keep a job? Maybe. Perhaps I have a backbone and don’t like lying,cheating or stealing. The business I work in is fairly closed and inside. There are maybe 40-50 companies in the Houston market. Everybody knows everybody. This is only one of many stories I know. I used it because the engineer is not a particularly good engineer and an example of sleaziness in the “upper class”

Most entrepreneurs I know at one point or another have “bent” the law, pulled off a hustle, taken a gamble that not only risked themselves but their clients. I don’t necessarily think that is categorically bad. I have actually run several of these operations. I intentionally, at one point in my career, worked for several small entrepreneurial firms because I wanted to learn that end of the business. I was swindled by a partner a while back with interesting “legal” ideas.

I have been one of the people who built up clientel, and steered companies into profitable modes. I actually am fairly well known in my market and don’t have much trouble changing jobs if I want. My business has ups and down dependent on who has the best contracts. Its construction related and is cyclical.

Do the entrepreneurs work hard? Sure they do, but so do many of their employees. Most of the entrepreneurs are millionaires within five years. Once they obtain wealth most of the engineers become less about engineering and more about protecting their money. Most are degreed professional engineers. The reason they start these businesses is because they are paid in the $50k to $80k range as engineers.

Most of these companies have a mix of private and public work. Most depend on the public work, which is above private rates, and is handed out on a political basis. In the early eighties there was a shakeout in the construction market here due to the S&L collapse. The public work floated some of the companies. All layed off. Of course,I entered the private market at that time

My point is not that they are all evil. They ARE mostly corrupted. The system is corrupt. As I get older, I get a little more cynical. They make decisions not based on engineering, but freuqently profits alone. The smart ones just don’t do it stupidly. Why wouldn’t they? They are no different than most of us. They are just more focused on money. I don’t respect someone just because he has a business or wealth. Some are outright crooks, not superior beings.

My health isn’t what it used to be and I’ve scaled back and take less tasking jobs at the moment. I just don’t buy the superiority crap. People with money often do tend to think of themselves as better. Trust me, they aren’t.

P.S. it was the owner I worked for that harrassed women. I didn’t know his father, his father worked for the Corps of Engineers. I was saying he wasn’t born in Palestine.(Or moved when he was very young)

PPS Jack, I know, so was my opening paragraph.:)

Posted by: gergle at April 18, 2006 9:07 AM
Comment #141414

Elitism Coward section John kerry coward during viet nam war coward iraq war. Wesley clarke coward viet nam war coward iraq war.In any other country these two jay birds would be executed.

Posted by: saying at April 18, 2006 11:22 AM
Comment #141425


I just don’t buy the superiority crap. People with money often do tend to think of themselves as better.

People who have earned money are superior in one way to those who have not earned money: They are superior at earning money.

That alone doesn’t make them a better or worse person, doesn’t make them smarter or dumber, doesnt make them any more or less moral, doesn’t make them any kinder or meaner…..It simply makes them better money earners.

Most of the entrepreneurs are millionaires within five years.

Interesting, because according to Bizjournals among others, ” Eighty percent of new business start-ups never survive the first three years.”

How do you correlate your thought with the fact that I just produced for you?

What happens often is that the failed businesses are never seen. Its only the successful ones that are seen. So, someone sees a guy who’s been running a business for 15 years, has accumulated some money and has employees to do the stuff that he used to do, and they think….”Wow, that’s an EASY job”. But they’ve neglected to consider the first 15 years that the guy busted his ass. They also neglect to recognize that in the first years, if the business failed, the owner loses……EVERYTHING. The concept of risk and reward is alive and well in entrepreneurship.

Once again, Paul has trotted out a weak and poorly investigated thought, one that is increasingly typical. Its easy to punch out the keys on the keyboard when you don’t do the necessary research to know if what you are saying makes any sense. I look forward to the day when Paul adds research to his points of view.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at April 18, 2006 12:11 PM
Comment #141432

“Elitism Coward section John kerry coward during viet nam war coward iraq war. Wesley clarke coward viet nam war coward iraq war.In any other country these two jay birds would be executed.”

I’m not a big fan of John Kerry, but you really have no place calling him a coward. I don’t know who you are, or if you yourself are in the military, but John Kerry was injured three times in battle, and recieved a bronze and a silver star. Despite what the swift boat veterans for truth said, there is no evidence of his having lied about any of the events that led to his medals. None of the swift boat guys had been present for either his silver or bronze star, and they presented to actual evidence that he did not perform with valor worthy of the medals he recieved.

I don’t know much about Wesley Clarke, but he is a 4 star general, which isn’t exactly easy to achieve.

Posted by: iandanger at April 18, 2006 12:41 PM
Comment #141451

>>Elitism Coward section John kerry coward during viet nam war coward iraq war. Wesley clarke coward viet nam war coward iraq war.In any other country these two jay birds would be executed.

Posted by: saying at April 18, 2006 11:22 AM

Jack…is that YOU in that disguise???

Posted by: Marysdude at April 18, 2006 1:49 PM
Comment #141459

Liars and cryers and libs oh my.

Posted by: saying at April 18, 2006 2:02 PM
Comment #141470


I was only relaying my personal experience joe, I’m sure others’ opinions may vary. Most successfull people I know, do have a superiority attitude. Most are Republican, but this IS Texas. I’ve had discussions with a few who state they could run government better. I don’t usually reveal my personal beliefs to them. I believe the truth often is that they would fail miserably. Their relationship to government is often a cronie network. They also often have racist attitudes. They are driven, but not always aware of their own egoism. I suspect in a public venue they would soon become a victim of that, plus they wouldn’t be making the money they are now, which is the measure they use to value themselves.

There have been a few failures, that I’m aware of. One of them was a con-artist outright who went to jail for writing hot checks.(This was my boss at one operation for a time) Most take their initial client base from a previous employer. If they don’t screw that up, it only takes a few clients to equal their previous salary. Again, these are only my personal experiences in this unique business. In the sixties there were only a few of these companies in Houston and Dallas. Now each city has 40-50 each. These companies began to develope in the 70’s during the construction boom of that period. Not all of those survived. Construction has been booming here since the late eighties. In my opinion, it’s been a run to the bottom since.

These businesse do not run at a loss generally to start up. If they fail, they can sell off their equipment. Start up costs are not that high, if you cut a few corners, which many do.( Professional Liability is something many small operations do not buy or disclose that fact.) Actual risk is fairly low due to the Architect or Contractor being the usual target of lawsuits. Gross profit margins generally run in the 25 to 50 percent range after you establish a base clientele (generally 3-5 years) Several have started up in their owner’s garage.(Many are started while the engineer still works for someone else) I helped several of these companies start up because I had the experience to avoid dumb mistakes. I enjoyed the game of hustling into the market. I always made service a priority as some of the stalwarts were too fat and lazy to provide responsive service. It’s a unique business. I don’t like cheating employees or clients and while I realize, during start up you may compromise quality, using experience to slide by, this is professional service and integrity should be a priority. It’s a highly technical business that most clients poorly understand.

I’m dissapointed the way I’ve seen it develope.

Posted by: gergle at April 18, 2006 2:32 PM
Comment #141471

Tony and Eric:

Here is one link:

“After waiting outside overnight to be among the first to enter this year’s White House Easter Egg Roll, families in line were surprised to learn that the White House had changed the ticketing policy for the annual event, PageOneQ has learned. The unannounced change means that the families who waited in line the longest, in one case for twenty-four hours, will not be among the visitors at the event’s opening ceremonies.”

I’m sure you will tell me you don’t believe them. That’s your privilege.

I want to make it clear that my post was a response to a multi-decade attack by Republicans against Democrats. So if you want to accuse anyone of hate accuse Republicans.

Sure, there are rich Democrats as well as rich Republicans. However, these rich Democrats - Kerry and Kennedy and others - are in favor of legislation to help the poor. This is unlike the Republicans who favor the rich in everything they do; they claim the benefits of their policies will trickle down to the poor. Who believes this?

Rich Democrats deserve extra acclaim because they favor policies that go against their self-interest. This is because they believe the common interest is more important.

Posted by: Paul Siegel at April 18, 2006 2:35 PM
Comment #141474


What exactly do you mean by that? Are you saying Kerry lied, because you have to actually back that up with something. Anyone can say something is a lie. For example, when the report that the military failed to secure weapons depots that were looted by Iraqis during the first part of the invasion of Iraq, the paper recieved thousands of letters emails and phonecalls calling the story false. Only they found a number of testimonies and video footage proving this did happen. People can scream lie about just about anything, doesn’t make them right…or sane.

Posted by: iandanger at April 18, 2006 2:51 PM
Comment #141481

Iandanger Mr. kerry admitted one of his medals was the result of a self inflicted wound?The paper work on the other two medals is nonexistant.This guy is a disgrace to his country.

Posted by: saying at April 18, 2006 3:09 PM
Comment #141506


thanks for clearing that up. I think most of the time that we discuss issues only out of our own experiences, we tend to end up with a smaller view of the issue. In your unique field and in your unique experiences, your comments are true. But that doesn’t mean they are true in the bigger picture.

Statistics show that the vast majority of new businesses fail within the first three years. The person putting up the money loses much more than an employee would. Since I believe in risk/reward, its only fair that the one with the most to lose is also the one with the most to gain.

I am aware of my level of success. I’m a bit proud of my accomplishments. That’s not to say I’m egotistical about it, but I recognize that I have some level of ability and effort that has allowed me to get where I am. I also have had a level of luck, circumstance, and grace that have allowed me to get where I am.

Paul looks at people as being elitists. I think he starts with them being elitists and then works backwards from that conclusion. You seem to suggest that entrepeneurs are egotistical, racist and often corrupted folks who don’t work all that hard. I’d disagree with your assessment as a generality, though I’m sure there are some who fit that mold. Just as likely, there are poor working folks who fit the same mold.

One thing I’d say: if being an entreprenuer is so darned easy, and most of them end up millionaires within 5 years, then my suggestion to all people would be to be an entrepreneur. People shouldn’t complain about it—they should embrace it. See if its as easy as what they’ve heard. My guess is they’ll find out the harsh truth that its hard work and sweat and long hours and ingenuity and perspiration and sheer dogged unwillingness to give up that accounts for the successes.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at April 18, 2006 4:20 PM
Comment #141509


You used a blog as your link of evidence to prove your point? Doesn’t seem like a very good source material to me, considering that someone could use Watchblog as a source for truth in the same way, despite the fact that there are many varying viewpoints of the truth presented here.

Also, the link went nowhere, so I couldnt even read it in completion. I checked out Kipes and found nothing there either.

If you really want to provide something in the line of proof, you’ll need to provide more than just a blogger’s opinion.

Posted by: jeobagodonuts at April 18, 2006 4:32 PM
Comment #141515

Tow breif comments:

1. Why don’t we try putting a limit on how much a person can earn before they run for Office - ie. Nothing over $150,000…. Hey it was just a crazy thought…..

2. Why do we care so much about how much a person earns and puts into their campaign - I mean it looks like there isn’t that much difference between Reps and Dems….either finacially or intellctually.e

Posted by: Linda H. at April 18, 2006 4:54 PM
Comment #141524


Hmmm, a link to a left wing blog that doesn’t work I might add.

Not Found The requested URL /posts/1145321145.shtml. was not found on this server.

Apache/1.3.34 Server at Port 80

We are still lacking any kind of corroboration to support this kind of hateful rhetoric.

You’re telling me that some Gay and Lesbian activists, who no doubt have no axe to grind against Bush… and would never seek to turn a Christian religious holiday into a Gay Pride Rally and photo op, try to get tickets to a White House ‘Christian Religious Holiday Celebration’ and are slapped in a backhanded manner by bigoted Republicans, who no doubt would arrest and torture these US citizens if they could. Isn’t that about the tone of this post?

Putting aside the fact that it would be impossible for anyone to tell that two men or two women merely standing in line for tickets to this event with their children were Gay or Lesbian under normal circumstances. So how did the Republican bigots know that these were Gay and Lesbian Activists? Do Republicans have highly tuned Gay-dar that I am unaware of?

I’ll tell you that it doesn’t take bigotry to want to exclude someone who makes it clear that they are there to make a scene.

Maybe we can look into whether or not Cheney’s daughter was also excluded from this event.

re: On the moral excellence of Democrats and their non-elitism and benevolence

Sure, there are rich Democrats as well as rich Republicans. However, these rich Democrats - Kerry and Kennedy and others - are in favor of legislation to help the poor. This is unlike the Republicans who favor the rich in everything they do; they claim the benefits of their policies will trickle down to the poor. Who believes this?

Rich Democrats deserve extra acclaim because they favor policies that go against their self-interest. This is because they believe the common interest is more important.

Let me point out something to you about these rich Democrats. Do they ever tax their wealth assets against their own interest? No? Do they ever give up their inherited wealth because they believe the common interest is more important than their own luxurious lifestyle? No?

But they earn points for taxing everyone else’s earnings to pay for their particular belief in what the common interest is. Paul, do you not see how arrogant and elite this is? Or do you just not want to see it?

The Liberal Elite don’t pay for their compassion themselves. They make the common people pay for it! ‘It’s in their best interest, of course.’

Sadly, this is the definition of liberal compassion. The left believes that by forcing others to pay for their benevolence they are saintly. And of course what they believe should be done with the money is the only way in which the common interest can be served. Any disagreement with the elite enlightened liberal beliefs are ignorant and probably bigoted too.

However, this policy actually is in their self interest. Taxing income instead of wealth merely serves to keep the club of the rich an exclusive club. It serves to keep the elite safe from upstart wealth. The more regressive the income tax the more it insulates them from the neuvo-rich.

Why do you think that rich Democrats never tax their own wealth assets, only those who are earning wealth?

But if those who are proponents of other ‘classes’ in contradiction to their own self-interest are to recieve special anointing, then I am to be congratulated by you, for I am not rich and yet I support the conservative agenda— apparently against my own self-interest. And so do a great many other people. In fact, some on the left have actually noticed that reality and their perception of it differs so greatly. The common people who are supposed to support them instead support Republicans:

What’s the Matter with Kansas? How Conservatives Won the Heart of America

How to explain this seeming contradiction? Surely the blessed light of liberal reason would lead ordinary people to the conclusion that the left’s socialist aims are great for them???

The largely blue collar citizens of Kansas can be counted upon to be a “red” state in any election, voting solidly Republican and possessing a deep animosity toward the left. This, according to author Thomas Frank, is a pretty self-defeating phenomenon, given that the policies of the Republican Party benefit the wealthy and powerful at the great expense of the average worker. According to Frank, the conservative establishment has tricked Kansans, playing up the emotional touchstones of conservatism and perpetuating a sense of a vast liberal empire out to crush traditional values while barely ever discussing the Republicans’ actual economic policies and what they mean to the working class.

Dumb common people, tricked! Too dumb to understand the simple self-interest in liberalism.

Posted by: esimonson at April 18, 2006 5:17 PM
Comment #141533

Picking up on Eric’s post, the quote above is exactly what Republican’s are talking about when they call Democrats elitist.

Like I said before, embrace it, thrive on it. You don’t have to renounce the label or try to turn it in to a Republican critique. Just come out and say it, “We’re hear we’re smarter you, and we know what’s better for you than you do, get used to it! Vote for us, and let us prove it to you. Trust us! Trust us! Trust us! We really know what’s best.”

Posted by: Rob at April 18, 2006 5:30 PM
Comment #141538

“Not… Your words have confirmed my choice to vote for Bush.”

Thanks cmdrjc, YOU’VE confirmed our views of bush voters.

Posted by: Norby at April 18, 2006 5:46 PM
Comment #141554


People who have earned money are superior in one way to those who have not earned money: They are superior at earning money.
Not true. That is to say, it could be true that some are superior at earning money, but it could also be true that those who have earned money have simply placed a higher priority on earning money than those who don’t. There are many examples of people taking a pass on an opportunity to make a lot of money in order to persue what they truly believe in…even if it doesn’t pay very well.

Posted by: Charles Wager at April 18, 2006 7:25 PM
Comment #141557


Dumb common people, tricked! Too dumb to understand the simple self-interest in liberalism.
Have you actually read the book? Maybe you should point out that the author, Thomas Frank, was originally about as devoted to the Republican party as one can get. He was born in Kansas, his parents were life-long Republicans, and he eventually became the president of the Young Republicans at the University of Kansas.

When he talks about the dumb common people (your words, not his) he’s including himself in the list.

Posted by: Charles Wager at April 18, 2006 7:36 PM
Comment #141620


I agree that most entreprenuers are smart, and hard working(until they get rich). Smart usually precludes racism. I do find most well off people have a tendency to classify people in a way that leaves them as superior, but we may all do that. It just seems more smug from a rich guy.

The racism perception may come from the fact I was raised in Ohio, and moved to Texas when I was 19. I think the South did/does accept racism more openly than Northerners do. One of my closest friends is somewhat racist, but his daughter recently said to me that she didn’t have have a problem with dating someone of a different race, but her parents would freak.

Yay! There is hope in the world.

I should say my own parents less so, but particulary my granparents held some quite racist views. I find it funny the way older people here assume since I’m white, i condone racism.

I think retailers would not find corruption helpful in succeeding. The sad part is that many engineering companies rely on government funded contracts. Many large projects are Government funded. The City of Houston , Harris County, and TexDot(Texas dept of transportation)are the largest builders around. TexDot is not corrupted, to my knowledge. There is, of course, the game of minority contracting which is another scam.

This is the corporate welfare that I gripe about. I doubt many of these “engineers” would succeed in a purely commercial market.

I used to work for Texdot. In the 60’s they used to do their own design, surveying, and quality control testing. Now they and other government agencies subcontract much of that work out. These contracts become the path to wealth for many of these “entreprenuers”. In turn they support the politicians who hand them out. Do taxpayers save money? On paper they do, by not having to staff government agencies. But they get a much lower standard of work, dedication and the employees usually end up with much more unstable employment with worse benefits. A few get rich. And, I believe, that they end up paying the difference to the guy that gets rich plus some.

The problem I have with our capitalist culture is that it doesn’t look at value, just dollar value. These successful engineers and politicains are lionized as stalwarts of the community, and as a rule they are just as screwed up as the rest of us. Maybe nmore so.

Joe, I applaud you on your success, and you seem to understand that luck or fortune also played a hand. I just would hope that more successful Republicans would have your ability to say, “There but for the grace of God(or luck), go I” I also believe there are no self made men. Every success had helpers along the way. Sometimes I don’t hear that in the meaness of dismissing those less fortunate.

Thanks for the psychiatric venting session, Doc.

Posted by: gergle at April 19, 2006 2:37 AM
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