Democrats & Liberals: Archives

“Who is a real lawbreaker?”

…I believe that the easiest way to solve the illegal immigration problem is to punish employers of illegal immigrants.

Once again Paul, the light of your Leninist brilliance shines through!

I can’t help but marvel how deftly and effluently you are able to describe every problem that plagues America as due to the ‘shamefully greedy’ business class, (when in reality every problem is due to the left!)

Illegal immigration is the fault of business?

What better way to combat illegal immigration than having the federal government control all employment throughout the United States! WOW! Truly breathtaking, but not unexpected in totalitarian thinking.

It’s only a step further to full ‘citizenship registration’ and job assignment, eh, comrade?

…the government should establish a national employment registry based on Social Security numbers to determine whether job seekers are in the country illegally

Indeed, how can the socialist governments south of us be to blame for illegal immigration? Surely it is our fault for pursuing the radical capitalist system of oppression that draws so many north in the hopes of having a better life. The answer is to punish the underhanded capitalists for such dastardly deeds.

The illegal immigration problem can not be solved without punishing employers of illegal aliens. We do not need a guest worker program that will brand some as second class citizens and will push worker wages in the U.S. downward. We do not need walls that are expensive and that will isolate America from its neighbors. It’s abhorrent to even suggest that illegals be treated as felons.

Those illegals that are already here, should be provided a path toward citizenship.

(i.e. they are good potential liberal voters.)

esimonson.
WE ned to stop illegal immigration. Make hiring undocumented immigrants a felony and ENFORCE the laws already on the books. With few, if any jobs available, many of those wanting to come, won’t and maybe some of those already here will come forward and ask to be sent home to their OWN homeland!
Is illegal immigration the fault of business….you bet your sweet bippy! Without the jobs, the immigrants won’t come, fer crisssss sake. Are you dense of what!

esimonson

That’s the sticky wicket, as the English would say, isn’t it? They are already here. And, whether we like it or not, we’ve got to find a way to live with that and with them. The first step may be to grant amnesty to them all, then set up a screening system to weed out the criminal element (drug dealers, gang members, etc.), then put the rest on the path to citizenship. And we could simultaneously be working on getting control of the borders and illegal immigration. As a conservative Republican, this has been a difficult trip for me from “ship ‘m all back to wherever they came from” to where I am today. And believe me,
I’ve taken some heat from my conservative friends.

Bush’s problem is he talks the talk (“I’m a compassionate conserevative.), but can’t walk the walk. I like to think I’m a better person than that.

I know a contractor who would sub work to a man who had his own buisiness. After ten years, his sub lost the work and became disgruntled. He enlisted the IRS and was able to prove employment. They penalized the contractor for close to a million for that one subcontractor. He declared himself bankrupt. The reason illegals are popular is because there is no threat of retaliation by them. They are thankful for the work and satisfied with their wages.
Documenting them would spoil this set up and therefore would be ineffective. They simply wouldnt sign up so they could keep the cashflow.
Maybe a use tax instead of an income tax would put everyone on a level playing field?
I honestly think this is more of a tax rebellion on the part of the workers and employers. Comp and bennies are also factors. I’ll bet the price of having an employee legally is quite high in California. Many companies have moved to other states. This is just another way to deal with overtaxation. Lowering or changing the above wages costs would be an incentive to document workers.

Any business that has to do business illegally or go out of business? Should go out of business. PERMENANTLY! It’s just that simple. And, when that business goes out of business, then there will be no more employment for illegals. Problem solved.

However, illegals have broken the law also, and should face heavy jail time if caught in this country. Then deported to their own country of origin, to face more jail time.

Why should we support 11 million illegals when we have people here, living on the streets? If you want charity, then first give some charity and some thoughts to poor Americans. You can start with New Orleans. Ssomeone should help those that the President and his Administration has abandoned! AND, THEY ARE AMERICANS!

I would say that Eric’s attempt to frame this debate as a left vs. right issue is just plain wrong. Capitalist, socialist, or whatever. People come here for money or the means to make it.

I think the best way to view the debate is in terms of security. This “problem” of immigration really exposes our weakness in terms of security if thousands of “illegals” can sneak in what stops terrorists or WMD.

I think Paul makes a good point about enforcement in the work place. But Mexicans sneaking into this country for work isn’t nearly as frightening as terrorists.

We need better control over the borders and ports to cut down on what doesn’t belong in this country like drugs, terrorists, and yes also illegal immigrants.

Hear, Hear!!!
Three cheers for PlayNice and Paul Seigel.

What I find infuriating is the number of these “companies” that win low bid contracts through A.) Minority set asides, B) Small Business set asides
C.) or destroy a market, driving it to the lowest common denominator. The owners get rich, the workers get screwed.

Enforce the laws that protect America from these predators. The latest whine is that they can’t tell the illegals from the legals with all the phony documentation. Hmmm, bet they don’t take too many phoney 20’s. esimonson threatens “the economy is falling, the economy is falling” with his usual elitist b.s.. Enforcing I-9 requirements is Socialism? Way out there, Eric.

I’ve said it before, here it is again.

It WILL NOT WORK TO GO AFTER EMPLOYERS!!!
The enforcement cost is INCREDIBLY high compared to the low risk and high rewards for employers who profit from the work of the undocumented.

RGF

Let’s Not Repeat History

I do believe that granting amnesty is prudent for illegals. It sends the wrong message. Oh just come anyway they will grant you freedom in a few years. The law is the law. This law is partly intended to protect the people of this land. There are people whom we should never allow to enter our country. There is a right way and a wrong way. Bye Bye

Playnice,

You are aware that one of the largest classes of employers of illegals is farmers, eh? How loud can I expect you to squaack when you have to pay $20.00 for a pound of sugar, $5.00 for one apple, or $12.00 for one head of lettuce?

Without a doubt the one class of employer that gets nailed most frequently here in SE Kansas are the meatpackers. (This was also true in Nebraska)More often than not the employer is found faultless due to the employees use of forged documents. Also these meat-packing jobs are not low paying jobs for the area. They constantly advertise with starting pay around $13 to $15 an hour. I’ve never even set foot in a meat packing plant but I can only imagine that it must be pretty damn tough if they can’t lure people to work for double what most unskilled and semi-skilled jobs pay around here.

Definitely a problem, but also definitely a complicated problem. The whole idea of arresting, detaining, convicting and deporting eleven million people seems to be such a simple solution when it’s rolling off the tongue (or fingertips), but can you imagine the financial cost alone?

Not to mention the likelihood that this would “blow up” in our faces. The “legal” Hispanic American populace would revolt. Have you watched the news at all? We would be faced with the beginnings of a genocide reminiscent of the holocaust. BTW, at what point due armed border guards shoot? At what point do they render humanitarian assistance?

IMO the first person they should deport is Tom Tancredo although I’m sure Italy doesn’t want him. Check out the stats of his congressional district. While he hardly created the problem he certainly did one hell of a good job at stirring things up, and to top it all off he’s now blaming the Democrats. Sheesh! Just when you think you’ve heard it all.

KansasDem

A variation of this idea is already in the works:

http://www.numbersusa.com/hottopic/workplaceverification.htm

Basically, from what I understand it disallows companies from deducting payments to illegal workers from their tax liability (thereby adding to their tax bill- and substantially decreasing the financial impetus for hiring illegal workers). Those found guilty of taking such deductions anyways are thereby commiting tax fraud, and subject to all fines and penelties in accordance with IRS policies (and we all know how the IRS loves it’s money).

Who is a real lawbreaker? The illegal who never thought of legality and risked his life in order to feed his family? Or the employer of the illegal who knew what he was doing was against the law but did it anyway in order to make an extra buck?

The answer is simple. BOTH.

Let’s provide amnesty, not to the poor immigrant, but to the true felons: employers of illegal immigrants.

How about neither?

Business people who hire illegals - restaurant owners, farmers, retailers, sweatshop owners, and homeowners hiring nannys and handymen - are felons.

and they need to be treated as such.

What are we doing about it? Practically nothing.

Unfortunately your right.

We’re too busy finding fault with helpless immigrants.

They ain’t as helpless as you think.

When an employer hires a new person the new employee is required to show proof that they are legal to work in the US. A SS card and some form of government issued picture Id is required. If the new employee can’t show these then the employer can’t hire them.
Sometimes the new hires have a SS card with a number that’s been taken from a dead person. They use this number to get a state Id. Everything looks good to the employer and they’re hired.
I had this happen to me. The 2 new hires showed what appeared to be valid Id and SS cards. However the SS cards weren’t issued to them by the SS administration.
Sense this happened I started using the SS website that list numbers of deceased persons. Sense I started using this system to check the validity of the SS numbers I’ve caught one person that had a number from a deceased person.
I also had a new hire that I’ve known sense the 6th grade come up as being dead. A real shocker for him and his wife. Neither knew he was dead.

RON, a common sense solution you took it one step farther and solved the problem yourself! what amazes me is your saying they give the phoney ss card to the dmv or state agency and they our issued a state ID. the state does not even bother to check?

Why is Mexico’s unemployment rate at 3.6% ????

Is that an honest number?

We have people here in the U.S. BITCHING because of our unemployment rate of 4.8%. Saying Bush isn’t doing enough to create jobs.

Today some woman was on TV saying that our rate of 4.8% means FULL EMPLOYMENT and if we didn’t have the ILLEGAL workers our UNEMPLOYMENT rate would be higher.

Call me crazy…. BUT SHE sounds CRAZY!!

NOBODY gives it to us straight. EVERYBODY has an agenda and a spin.

Amnesty for the 11 million = 30+ million brought here from Mexico and other countries because they will be allowed to bring their families.

KansasDem

Yes, farming is the major employer of illegals. However these farms are not the “family” farms of the 50’s,60’s,and 70’s. Those were all distroyed in the 12 Ragan/Bush years. It’s now big corporate farms with big money and large profits. Don’t kid yourself, it’s not mom and pop and 5 generations of farmers any more. And, do I want to pay $20 per pound for sugar? No. Will I have to? No. We get a lot of our sugar from Hawaii, and they don’t employ illegals to do their work for them. As for Apples and Lettuce, prices may go up, but how do you like paying $3 per gallon for gas to pay for Bush’s Illegal War? Huh? With business here in this country no longer getting away with paying “slave” wages. That leaves 11 million plus jobs for us to fill. Obviously there aren’t 11 million of us that want to fill these jobs at 2-5 dollars per hour so wages will have to go back up or businesses that depend on illegal labor will go out of business. (It really is supply and demand here, that’s free enterprise). And, those 11 million jobs now being held by illegals will be at higher wages so we can afford that 5 dollar apple, and State Income taxes and Federal Income taxes and state L and I and S.S. will be withheld and that is going to be a real boon to our economy. See, when you play fair, when you abide by the rules, when you don’t break the laws and don’t expect others to…..EVERYONE PROFITS AND IS BETTER OFF…..it’s a win win situation all around.

Meat packing plants can’t find anyone here in America to work in their factories but illegals? Oh my God, what bunk! You want to go down to the poorest of the poor cities in this country, and start with New Orleans, and tell them that there are plenty of jobs in Kansas for $13 - $15 per hour and THEN stand back, cause the stampeed will kill ya! How about importing American Simoan’s who’s medium yearly income is $2,700.00 per year. Do you know any vets? I do. I know two personally, for the Viet Nam war. They are living out of their trucks because the Bush Administration has discontinued their disability. They have lost everything they owned, which wasn’t much. They would pretty much kill (a figure of speach), for a chance at $15 per hour. 12 years ago I tried out for a job at K-Mart. I had to present my Drivers license or photo ID, my social security card, and my birth cirtificate or citizenship papers. I guarentee you that K-Mart did not hire illegals 12 years ago! Don’t you think that having a forged S.S. number would be a dead give away that your employee is an illegal? When I went to school and my kids went to school I had to have a birth certificate and shot records. Hell, my husband and I volunteer for the COPS program (community oriented police support program), and we had to have a background check. Took all of 5 minutes, and they will do it for anyone, day care worker, employer, hireing a new maid….anyone. Want to check out someone’s Social Security status, wouldn’t be hard. Also where I work they want a history of credit. They pull your credit history and it should be a good one, they don’t want dead beats. And, illegals do not have a credit history, ya think?

This point of “it will blow up in our faces” if we get too rough with trying to enforce our laws against illegals. Oh fiddle faddle, pish posh! Let them kick and scream. The ones that kick and scream the loudest should be the first to be arrested. Maybe 25 years in American prison will take some kick out of them, and then deport them back so that President Fox can have his wack at them for another 25 years. Hey, faceing that kind of future, I doubt that many more than a handfull will be there to kick up some dust. And, those won’t be much more that the number of Mexican Gang members that are already incarcerated in our prisons each year anyway. Did you know that in states like Texas, California and Florida that 1/3 of the population is illegals, and they are not there for being illegal either! They are there for their criminal behavior, and it’s breaking the back of our prison system.

And I repeat: You do not “need” to deport anyone, if you do it right. You don’t have to build a wall, put on more security on the boarder, make plans to deport 11 million people. (They got their as here … let them drag their as back).

1)Take the jobs away by making a fine of $1,000 per day per illegal, and work will dry up, and no more work, no more problem

2)Make a 15 to 25 year sentance for anyone caught in this country illegally. No job, no money, no free welfare, no school for your kids, no food stamps and don’t get sick or someone will call the police… No one would take that chance. It’s a big chance of being caught because you can’t make a living and if you’re caught, your life will just about be over. If you make the penalties so harsh for breaking the law….then guess what? Most people won’t break the law.

That leaves: ILLEGALS 0

NEW AMERICAN JOBS - (with better pay) + Social Security & State and Federal Income Tax gain = *11 MILLION

*Give or take-cause some companies might, just might, be right, they may go out of business and maybe they should go out of business…so say 7 MILLION NEW JOBS —- with better pay and maybe even bring the unions back?
Yes, say 7 million new jobs for Americans, (just to be safe).

The PROBLEM is that the U.S. is going around the world trying to figure out how to SUCK UP to everyone instead of standing strong and letting them come to us.

WE ARE STUPID!!!!!!

This thread seems to be ignoring the fact that many illegals are not working. There are many woman who live illegally in the US, primarilly supported by state and federal programs, in order to gain citizenship for their children. Being the mother of a juvenile citizen gives illegals more leverage to play the system and stay indefinitely in the US. Unlike the working illegal population which does contribute something to the US economy, the breeding illegals drain the social support system.

Raising children on the public dime is not only bad for the US economy, it’s also bad for the children who are raised in poverty. There is nothing humane about allowing parents to insert their children into the economic underclass of America.

Providing a “path to citizenship” for those illegals who have entered the country illegally, obtained false identity documents, and basically lived a lie when dealing with anyone but the illegal community doesn’t sound like a good idea to me. The counterargument is that other than not obtaining permission to live in the US, these illegals are basically law abiding people. The problem is that they are taking it upon themselves to decide which laws they will obey. Being an illegal alien indicates an inherent lack of integrity.

It is easy demanding that a business go under and that families be broken up when they aren’t your own.
When businesses go out,the same people will be complaining about unemployment being high and find fault with whatever administration is present.
We see this with GM. The evil corporation vs the downtrodden worker. This battle will eventually lead to bankrupsey and then high unemployment while foreign plants succeed. Do you think someone is going to majically take their place and hire all their workers?
I watched the new orleans refugees complain about bennies and no work on one channel and on another they interviewed hispanic and whites who traveled there from all over the country because of the work. Don’t make sense to me…
Their work ethic or lack of desire to get something for nothing may also be a cause of hiring illegals…

The contractor I mentioned a while ago followed everything legally. The way our laws are, especially the tax law, people can easily twist them to destroy someone. If the IRS thinks you bought him a tool or gave too much work to him, a subcontractor can be suddenly and retroactivly changed into an employee even if he is licensed and you pay him plenty to cover his own taxes, comp etc. Illegals aren’t in that position. I am not for their use, but showing motive.

I really hate to burst anyone’s bubble… but, I would really love to hear more about this “Ship ‘em back over the border.”

It sounds so simple… either march them down the highway to the border surrounded by armed guards (or civilian volunteers?) and what? Watch them die?

Penalize employers to the point of none being able to work and watch as “seemingly moral solution” push them down the same highway? And what? Watch them die?

Assumptions are so easy to make. Many women don’t work but are living off the dole. Now, these people aren’t even supposed to be getting drivers licences, so how are they living off the dole?

The law is the law. Obedience to the law, regardless of the morality of the law is paramount! Ponder me this… Afghanistan wanted to try a man for the capital crime of leaving Islam… it was not only a religious, but a legal requirement that he be put to death for this crime.

Many wanted to, either intentionally to gain outrage, or through carelessness, attribute his crime to converting to Christianity. No, his crime was converting to anything from Islam.

Why was there such outrage? Philosophical difference versus our differences? Religious freedom? But, isn’t that a concept that isn’t the part of the Islamic religion, culture or law?

So, for all those that tsk-tsked… forwarded e-mails or talked to your friends about that poor persecuted Christian in a nation we helped build being put on trial for his life for the crime of converting to Christianity… well, I think you should contact those people you wrote and apologize and hope he gets sent back to Afghanistan and gets the punishment he deserves for breaking their law!

As Stalin said, “One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic.” Isn’t it interesting how closely the “Walk ‘em to the border” people compare to the most prolific serial killer the world has ever seen?

Show me a plan that will move 11 to 20 million people without a human toll that will stain this countries soul forever.

No rhetoric please… no prevention and fences, additional guards or punishments for the employers… I have heard them all with slight variations. I have also heard, again and again and again and … the reasons why these people need to be forced out.

Just a simple plan of how it will be done. One in which you will come to my 6th grade class in about 10 years and explain to my students.

I have heard about the problem enough. I think most have… we know all the numbers… we know how lazy, drug addicted they are. We know that they drive drunk without a license and insurance. We know that they are predominantly criminals (besides the crime of being here). We know all that… please please please.

I want something more than the combined mob mentality where they feed on each others anger and righteous indignation until they can justify for themselves the need to hang a person.

Give me a concrete plan that a moral person can sign off on and still face himself in the mirror.

Darren7160:

Show me a moral person who can allow a broken system of illegal entry to continue unabated until hospitals close due to insufficient funding and educational systems deteriorate through overuse and border towns are overrun at night. In a conflict over resources, sadly sometimes there are winners and losers. A compromise or a happy medium is sometimes unavailable and the hammer has to come down on one side or the other. If misplaced compassion prevents action to fix the problem then the final consequences will be worse.

If you are unwilling to make this kind of hard decision, stay away from public policy making where limited resources often force hard choices. In the case of immigration, it’s not that hard. Illegal immigrants enter knowing that they are not welcome and the shadow of detection and deportation hangs over them from the day of their arrival. Using the excuse that they want a better life is invalid. Selling drugs or robbing houses can also provide a better life. Personal desire for wealth is not an excuse to break the law. In this case, national sovereignty is the high moral ground.

“BTW, at what point due armed border guards shoot?”

As soon as they cross.

“At what point do they render humanitarian assistance?”

By not firing upon the other country when they are removing their dead.

Darren (Note: * = personal foot note)

I have a course for your 6th grade class, and it’s called “Immigration 101”
I can’t put this class here word for word because it will be very long, but I’ll put an outline here if you don’t mind: *

Part 1 “How illegal immigration got it’s start”. This deals with the history of family farms, the work force in Southern CA. orchards, and the rich CA. families that could hire cheep illegal labor and not pay taxes or deal with Union demands or fair wages.**

Part 2 “How Illegal immigration spread.”
Here we deal with how illegal migration spread throughout the U.S. to other businesses that could profit from a cheap work force that they could exploit; while at the same time, lowering the standard of living for the whole country. And, also at the same time, cheating local communities and the Federal government of tax dollars, and needed funds to sustain such a large illegal work force. It is of great importence here, to show how business interests, (against America’s best interest) was changing laws to allow it’s illegal work force to take advantage of public funding and community resources (such as welfare, food stamps, health care, and public schools etc.), to sustain their work forces and their families. And, how that esculating situation finally got to the point of changing the very face of every facet of the world we live in today (2006), economically, politically, legally and morally. ***

Part 3 “A time for change”
Here we go back 10 years to 2006, when after years of war in Iraq, with big business breaking the backs of American Citizens in every facet of their lives, and after 5 failed years of the Bush Administrations financial, political and moral policies, America finally awoke from their years of sleep to change the face of the world back in time into the America of the 1950’s. A time of peace and prospariety for all, a turning point when American’s took America back and out of the hands of big business interests. The program was quite simple. But, it involved a concerted effort of all the people, Democrats and Republicians, because although Republicians were in the pocket of big business, the “New Democrats” were also in the pocket of big business interests as well, and they controled the country, not the people. ****

Well, there you have it. It’s not hard. America just needs to start voting in it’s best interest, not against it. We have to “take America back”. We have to quit being cattle, being led from pen to pen. And, right now? Did anyone here notice how all this talk about immigration has, once again, taken the focus off this failed Administration, it’s failed policies, and it’s failed war?

And, PS: I can look myself in the mirrow just fine, thank you.

* I feel I have some expertise here, to give such a class because my father ran a cast iron foundry in Southern California from 1930 to 1981. He knew how to hire illegals, how to exploite them, how to get the government to substidise them, and how to avoid fair wages and Union involvement.

** Would like to address the bridge over the Southern California freeway, here. And, how it was built from no-where to no-where (as a foot bridge) over a stretch of freeway, because too many illegals were being killed and tying up traffic along highway 101.

*** Did you know that it takes 2 million dollars to get a law passed? And, that’s only for a law. That does not include the millions in loby monies that it takes to get the bill through various government bodies to radify the bill. Who do you think benifits from those laws, boys and girls? The citizens, or the special interests groups that can benifit from such laws?

**** The bills that were sponcered by the people that changed the face of this nation:

1) Amnesty Bill: Any illegal that can prove residence for 25 years or longer, will receive amnesty. Proof could consist of a birth certificate of a child born in the U.S more than 25 years of age, or more than 25 years ago. Or, a home that was paid for over a 25 year period of time, or any such billings, or history of job or income dateing back that far (that can be verified by the US Ddepartment of Immigration). However, such persons (with amnesy) will have to become U.S. citizens and unable to collect S.S. (unless paid in) and any welfare benifits, for life.

2)Illegal Immigrants Felons Act: Any person or persons who resides in this country illegally will be considered a felon with a manditory sentence of 15 to 25 years. (After a certain date set 6 months in the future). Exception: Any person that can prove that deportation to their country of origin would result in death or torture could apply to the INS for special dispensation (within the next 6 months), but would have to apply for citizenship legally.

3) The Employer Felony Act: Any persons or business or corporation that employ, aid or inable an illegal felon shall be fined $1,000.00 USD per day per person per offense. After 5 such citations (each event - not per person) said business will be seezed by the U.S Government and sold at public sale. (In the event that such infraction is a person, said person will face felony charges with a manditory sentence of 25 years to life in prison).

goodkingned
VERY GOOD POST!!! What a refreshing breath of fresh air.

kctim
A) When they have them in their sights
B) Never
C) Don’t be silly, the other side isn’t going to remove the dead, that again will be OUR job to clean up their mess.

Oh, and PS Darren,
Not one time did I say “ship ‘em back over the boarder”, did I? No, that would be a stupid waste of time and money, and has been done now, with negliable results, for far too long.

I find it funny that out of all the comments posted here, the actual problem is avoided. Why do illegal’s come here?

It seems that one and all are treating the symptoms, not the cause.

Put some effort (ie money, work etc. etc) into our neighbors economic system, and maybe the illegals won’t have to come here. Most of the money that they make go back to their families anyway. So I’ve read.

If “W” can spend billions in Iraq, why not spend some closer to home.

Cutting the weeds down with a grass cutter does not kill the weed. You need to get to the roots.

I’m no expert, but just some common sense.

I spent plenty of time working side-by-side with illegals doing work that Americans (or so I hear) “don’t want to do.” Hence, I got to know many illegal aliens very well.

Did any of you think of this? Many many illegal aliens here actually do not want to live here, they just come from work. The claims that most of them come over here just to leach off our system are in many cases not true at all.

Quite a few of you are simply approaching this problem from the wrong angle.

Whether it can be enforced or not, the simple truth is that if people did not hire illegals immigrants then there would be no jobs and far fewer would come here. (no this would not solve the problem, but it would lessen it).

But there are too many in this country who enjoy the benefits of undocumented workers and so don’t do what they need to do which is to shun people who hire them. We don’t do it becuase we don’t want to suffer the consequences and because we don’t have moral leadership. I am by no means a Bush-Basher, but he (along with scores of local leaders) have let the ball drop by not calling for tougher penalties for those who hire undocumented workers and for using the bully pulpit to coax Americans into stopping the practice.

I’m aware that there would be serious eoonomic reprecussions if we somehow could eliminate all illegal immigrants (whether it be by making them legal or sending them back home). But this is nothing compared to the long term consequences of continuing on the path we’re on.

JAY
Evidently not. I went to the Driver License Office and asked them about that. They told me they don’t have time or manpower to check on every applicant. I asked them if they check on applicants from other states to see if their license was valid in that state or not. They said that they had to do that by law but the law didn’t require them to check SS numbers. Another case of bureaucracy at it best?

The only amnesty that illegals should get is whatever they can talk their government in their home countries into giving them. If they need it at all. And some most likely do.
The problem is, we’re sending a message to the world that all you have to do is get into the US and not get caught for awhile and you’ll get to stay. This encourages illegal immigration and doesn’t solve one problem here. In fact it creates more.
And this crap of giving their kids an education on the US tax payers backs, giving them medical care on the US tax payers backs, And giving them food on the US tax payers backs, just plain sucks.
These assholes are here illegally and the only thing they should get from the US tax payers is a boot on the ass back to where ever they came from.

Ron,

If our economy collapsed, what steps would YOU take to feed your family? If things got so bad that states began passing laws restricting out-of-state workers from coming across the border would you respect that? What if the only way you could see to provide for your family was to sneak across to find work? Would you consider doing it?

If not, then shame on you for not taking care of your loved ones and if yes, then shame on you for not having empathy for fellow human beings who are trying to survive. While there are no doubt plenty of illegals who are just leaches, I see scores of them everyday standing out in all weather conditions looking to earn money through backbreaking work. None of them are getting rich and almost all of them live in pretty deplorable conditions. You may be right in the idea that they should be deported. Our society simply cannot handle a limitless influx of people who use our resources (hospitals, schools, etc) and don’t contribute financially. But to call them “assholes” and suggest a boot on the ass is to deny them their humanity and those to lessen your own.

playnice
“Don’t be silly, the other side isn’t going to remove the dead, that again will be OUR job to clean up their mess”

Thats because its OUR fault and not theirs.
The hell with it, just hire them to remove the dead, I hear they need the work and work real cheap.

I’ve already made my points elsewhere, but let me make one point here: unless an illegal alien has committed a crime here, they have no business being sent to jail for entering the country illegally. If you really think about it, that’s tantamount to giving them free room and board for however many years you’ve sentenced them at taxpayer’s expense. Kind of counterproductive, really.

kc & bunch-o-others,

I’ve heard the same thing about negroes, i.e., just send ‘em back to Africa…it’s the single stupidest thing I’ve ever heard, and so strange that it’s still being spewed today. Will we never become civilized?

Our system feeds off greed. We want cheap labor and they provide it. When we quit seeking cheap labor, they will no longer be necessary, because our own people won’t mind doing the jobs themselves. If you want Americans to dig through trash/garbage heaps in order to feed their families, please just say so…this other nonsense is just that…killing people who come here because we ask them to…wow, how adult and civilized is that???

Ah Stephen, always with the logic and common sense. When will you see the folly of your ways?

If my understanding is right, having broken the law, illegal aliens are to be deported. Why are we not doing that? Just put them back over the line, it’s how they got here.

Another question I have is, for anyone who lives and works in an area where there are illegal aliens, how many of you report them? How many of you follow up and make noise if they are not deported? This is not to put the burden just on those living in the area, but those of us elsewhere can’t do it.

Catch and release is for fish isn’t it?

I would like to add, since you can’t edit once it is posted:

Report the employers too, and make noise. It is also against the law for them to hire illegal aliens.

One other thought:

I wonder how many of those protesting and waving Mexican flags were illegal aliens?

marysdude, here in so cal. ive seen a very large increase of the homeless in the last 6-7 years very sad. just through statistical observations they appear to be about 60% anglos.btw another sad silent statistic.

Womanmarine,

In theory you are right on about citizens having the responsibility to report, but there are two problems in practice.

1) I see plenty of workers lined up everyday, but I certainly can’t tell from my car which ones are here illegally and which are not.

2) While we use the term “illegal alien,” their mere precesnce does not currently constitute a crime, at least not from the perpspective of local police. Calling immigration would be fruitless as there are nowhere near enough immigration officers to deal with the volume of immigrants.

KC
If it’s “our” fault, … Well then, why don’t you introduce a bill to support the rest of the world. Hey, we’re bringing Democracy to Iraq at the tune of 1 Billion a day? (Yea, right!) Let’s see… That’s 30 Billion to Mexico, and 30 Billion to South America, … per month.
Let’s see…, look around and see if there is any other country that we are responsible for, (in supporting their people) … and do get back to me, will ya? After all Bush has gutted our treasury, and we are all owned by China anyway.

Adverbal:

My understanding is that they are to be deported when found, whether a crime or not?

And I didn’t suggest reporting those you see from afar, just those you know about.

Businesses should be reported too. Aren’t there fines in place already? Wouldn’t enforcing that help our budget?

And if we plan to secure our borders, perhaps that’s one place to start, increase the number of immigration officers and border patrol.

Bottom Line

Cheap labor benefits……… rarely is this passed on to the consumer. The only trickle down effects are the loss of jobs for Americans that trickle away. Consumers beware………we are slitting our own throats when we turn our labor markets over to the Black Labor Market of Mexico. Bye Bye

Another two cents…

Had I been borne south of the border I have no doubt and would have no apologies about trying to get to America. So I don’t fault honest folks who want to get into America for a better life, it’s perfectly understandable.

But instead of letting them just walk in without documentation we need to make sure that we know who is coming to America. We should probably make it easier in some ways for people to immigrate to the US, but the process should be more strict in the sense of knowing who they are— we should get a DNA sample, a full set of fingerprints, a retina scan, a set of pictures and maybe even a rfid tag to track where they are.

The criminals we bar from coming in, those who want a better life would gladly submit to such and those who don’t are likely criminals or worse.

The idea of sending 11 million people back to their country is just impractical, not to mention the effects to our economy by suddenly deporting a large portion of the work force would be catastrophic.

So I agree there should be a guest worker program, so long as it’s done right. Now some argue that a program like that would be treating the illegals that are here as second class citizens, but that’s the point since they aren’t citizens. If they want to work in our country without going through the proper channels of immigration and naturalization then they should be willing to give up certain benefits of being a citizen like access to any social welfare program, or the right to vote, but they should still be required to pay all taxes inlcuding social security. However, they should have all labor rights like minumum wage, safe work environment, etc.

The illegals that are currently here should be granted amnesty when applying for the guest worker card, so long as they pass a background check to see if they are terrorists or if they have ever been convicted of a felony. They should be issued a photo id with a guest worker number similar to a SS number. The card should be valid for a set period of time like say two years, after which they must be renewed and their guest worker status can be reviewed to see if they broke any laws during that time, or were unemployed for more than a third of their time here (what’s the point of being granted guest worker elligibility if you aren’t going to work?). After each two year working period is completed they should be elligible to apply for citizenship, if they fail the requirements for naturalization then they remain a guest worker.

The guest worker program doesn’t completely solve the problem, which is why businesses should face tougher penalties for hiring illegals. A national database of elligible citizens and guest workers should be created so employers can easily check an employees status, giving them no excuse for hiring illegals.

Once the program is in place, anyone here who is illegal should be given a year to apply for guest worker status or leave the country. Any illegal that is still here after a year should have to face jail time if caught.

As far as the border is concerned I think we need more security, probably not in the form of a wall, but something to keep terrorists and drug runners from entering.

Where does everyone get the idea that sending them back to Mexico is gonna happen in groups of millions? Another trail of tears? Bushwa!!

As we find them, we fingerprint, and do all that is necessary to ID them and put it into a database. Then we ship them back to Mexico. Then they can apply for whatever guest worker program gets established (although there already is one isn’t there?). If they come back and are caught and are in the database, they go to jail.

In the meantime, SECURE THE DAMN BORDERS!

Do whatever to establish a realistic and working guest worker program.

They would still only go back in reasonable numbers. Maybe a little more efficiently if we increase the resources of the INS.

This needs to be negotiated with Mexico. If they are caught coming in again they should go to a MEXICAN jail. That would be appropriate cooperation, in addition to Mexico doing their share of border security.

And the employers should pay enough of a fine that it hurts!

We have laws in this country for a reason.

I say Mexicans, but it applies to anyone coming into this country illegally, or staying past their visa, etc. Don’t start accusing me of racism. It’s just a fact that the most pressing and apparent problem right now is with Mexico.

I wonder if Alcatraz could be used as a new Ellis Island?

PlayNice,
Thank you for your well thought out post. I will appreciate your offer to explain this? Wait, I am not sure you said you would. But, I am sure that any teacher will welcome you… gratefully.

Dismissing the “march ‘em back” as not being verbatium… to what you said is proably true factually… and when it comes to the law and order set… that is what is important.

I like the idea of Immigration 101. May I suggest a small change? A Comparative Course on Immigration and Genocide?

A person can simply deny that there will be effects… but we know what has happened when we deny a problem? Increased illegal immigration until it reaches proportions that cannot be dealt with reasonably. Or, invading a country at the cost of about 70 times the supposed costs of these illegals to our society.

But, blame the illegals. Not a spend hungry President that believes following through with a failed justification (which he knew to be wrong) to invade a country. No. It is the immigrants.

It isn’t the $22 billion (about 125% of what illegals are supposed to be costing us) gift to the HMOs thanks to the partisan, closed door, Republican only sweetheart deal. It was the immigrants.

I hear you and other people spewing out costs to society and, quite frankly, I am really tired of having to ask because no one will answer… if the $1.6 billion above and beyond what they pay for rent, groceries, fast food, video rentals, etc.? At the lower number of 11 million that is $145 per person… less if 20 million.

They do not pay sales tax on items bought of at least that yearly? They cannot “under the table” that tax. Or can they. You guys tell me because you know everything about this issue… what you don’t know you just make up or deny.

You want to talk about a budget squeeze? Lose all that tax revenue quickly… you won’t have to worry about shcools then… because there either won’t be any or watch your property taxes shoot through the roof!

So, can we please cut the garbage about the costs. Each one of these things generate revenue through state sales tax… so get off this playing with numbers trash or give the real numbers.

Regardless of my experience, others who have agreed or any study that shows illegals do pay taxes, some want to disagree completely. Denial, denial, denial.

Also, this supposed that taxes wouldn’t be paid if there was a legal mechanism available.

People talking about paying a bit more for their salad ingredients proves the value of education and the harm of ignorance being passed of as being a “simple person.”

Believe that millions of job openings will be good for America. Why in God’s name would a person belong to the Republican party without even the slightest inkling of micor and macro economics is behind me.

It is okay not to understand how a tight labor market will raise the cost of labor that gets passed on to consumers who have to go to their comapanies and demand more money to make up the difference… that gets passed onto the consumer. Massive inflation. Yes, the workers will be making $20, $25 an hour but a burger will cost $10. That should take care of the “cheap” labor force for yah. Unless you understand relative wealth… er, here is a hint, living standards won’t go up.

However, once it has been pointed out… denying it or pretending it doesn’t exist is not an intelligent option.

I am sure that you must be proud of the fact that after discussing and dismissing the deaths of untold thousands with a net result of our being worse off than before (except for fewer brown people) you can feel so good.

I have to say… I am sorely saddened not only by the willingness to justify, through action or inaction using a “Seemingly neutral moral” obedience to the law the possibility of so much death.

What saddens me more is the gleefulness of the people contemplating this. It seems as if they are looking forward to it and hoping it is as bad as I believe it would be.

This is the Republican party? God’s Own Party? The moral party? Why oh why do you Republicans get so upset when compared to the NAZI’s? Is it the uniforms you don’t like?

To anyone that feels they can look into the mirror just fine after watching one person die that they were complicit in… then really, God help us as a society.

Even soldiers and police that killl in self defense are changed by the experience. But not a Republican. Bravo!

Hard to believe this is a liberal blog. So far 95% racist hateful ravings.
Maybe when the border patrol catches one they could impale them on the spot and leave them there screaming as a warning to the others . The women and kids would be especially effective.

Thanks to Darren for some sanity.

Beware Bushco’s guest worker program. Employers would be able to order a set number of workers. The workers would be tied to that employer. If they ask for more money,complain about safety violations or God forbid try and join a union,on the bus Pedro. Maybe if an employer has too many workers he could auction them off to another employer. We used to do that here. It was called slavery but then the damned 14th amendment made everybody citizens. Not a problem with Mexicans.

Excuse the bitter tone,please. The only reason this is being brought up now is an attempt to keep Congress in Rep hands. I find it appaling and sickening to watch just how easy it is for them to set working people against each other.Bottom line is if you do honest work for a living you have more interest in common with an “ilegal” fieldhand than with a ceo even if his skin is a different color or he speaks a different language.The people that are scewing him over are the people screwing you over,or trying to anyway.

No waiting period.
Give a warning immediately that employers of illegal aliens will be arrested tomorrow if they have illegal aliens in their employ. Especially if they are paying them off-the-books.

After a few examples, the rest will clean up their act too, or join their other greedy buddies in jail.

But, voters need to understand that politicians will forget this entire issue soon after the elections in November, unless voters start votin’ out all of the irresponsible incumbents.
That’s most likely all of them, since, for many months now, nobody can give me 10, much less 20, or 50 or even 268 (half of 535) in congress that are responsible.

Voters have their vote.
If voters keep re-electing the very same irresponsible, corrupt, bought-and-paid-for incumbents that keep stickin’ to the voters, then we’re doomed, and the nation’s decline will continue.

Also, many voters don’t understand how the federal government has forced states to accommodate illegal aliens by:
(1) forcing states to allow illegal aliens into public schools;
(2) forcing hospitals and ERs to treat illegal aliens;
(3) making new born children of illegal aliens an automatic citizen, giving the illegal alien parents an anchor, and a blue-passport;
(4) allowing employers to employ illegal aliens;
(5) refusing the secure the borders and ports, but have the gall to call the Minute Men vigilantes;
(6) forcing states to deal with open borders;
(7) providing welfare and Medicaid to illegal aliens.

What’s up with all that? I’d like a list of every politicians that ever supported any of that.

adverbal
What if the rabbit hadn’t stop to crap, would the dog have caught him?
The old what if argument to try and justify illegal immigration doesn’t cut it with me.
Yaall liberals have worn it out trying to justify actions and views that are just flat wrong.
There is NO excuse for coming into this country illegally.

Stephen
Your right, don’t put illegals in jail just for being here. Put them on the fastest means available back to wherever they came from.
Of course sense they ‘came here to work’ 20 years at hard labor (cutting grass with cycles along the roads) ought to earn them a chance to try to sneak back across the border after they’re released and sent home.

PlayNice
If it’s “our‎ fault, … Well then, why don’t you introduce a bill to support the rest of the world.

We’re already doing that. It’s called foreign aid.

Time to face the reality of demographics. The population of Mexico and Latin America is young and growing rapidly. The mothers that will produce the next even larger wave of immigrants are already born. This migration is not stopable any more than a weather front or an ocean tide is stopable without means unlikely to be carried out by a civilized democracy. By that I mean summary executions, kill zones. land mines and the like. Political bondaries mean nothing in such cases and never have.
Another consideration that should be taken in to account is the fact that immigrants from Mexico are in fact the indigious people of much of what is now the US. Their ties are deep. Not unlike Jews returning to Palistine.
Another fact for the consideration of the ever present wingnut observers of this blog is that abortion laws are very restrictive in Mexico and birth control is not easily obtained. Works just great does’nt it?
The culture of the US has and will become more Latin. Liguist laugh when they hear of English only laws. What that means is we already are living in bi-lingual country. You might as well get used to it.Enjoy the food. Its not bad. A sure sign is that the children of the wealthy and powerful are being raised by”Maria.” They are learning Spanish from the cradle.The cradle,by the way, that is being rocked by the hand that rules the world.

Here in the midwest the meat packing industry has gone almost exclusively to illegal immigrant labor. These are hard and dangerous jobs , but if decent wages were paid and OSHA did it’s job these jobs would be done by US citizens. This B…S… about “jobs Americans won’t do” is the big lie propagated by Bushco. The result of illegal aliens is the downward pressure on wages and benefits.

>>We’re already doing that. It’s called foreign aid.

Posted by: Ron Brown at April 2, 2006 12:07 AM

Ron,

A fellow by the name og Jack used to call this kind of tripe, ‘hysteria’. Foreign aid takes about three percent of our overall budget, and does some possible good. Quit blaming high taxes and busted budgets on foreign aid…that dog don’t hunt…

Something to chew on:

“24 percent of “all workers employed in (U.S.) farming occupations are unauthorized migrants‎ as are 12 percent in food processing and 27 percent “of all butchers and other food processing workers.‎” from:
http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2006/04/02/business/doc442d895ed4d5b391155211.txt

*****

Also some numbers to chew on:

“Q: Where do they (the illegals) come from?

A: About 6.2 million, or 56 percent, are from Mexico, according to Pew. An additional 2.5 million are from Central America and elsewhere in Latin America. About 1.5 million are from Asia, 600,000 from Europe and Canada and about 400,000 from Africa and other countries.”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060331/ap_on_go_co/immigration_q_a_1

*****

The first three of THE EIGHT STAGES OF GENOCIDE:

1. CLASSIFICATION: All cultures have categories to distinguish people into “us and them‎ by ethnicity, race, religion, or nationality.
2. SYMBOLIZATION: We give names or other symbols to the classifications.
3. DEHUMANIZATION: One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects or diseases. Dehumanization overcomes the normal human revulsion against murder.
http://www.genocidewatch.org/eightstages.htm

How far down the path to genocide are we?
How proud does the following story make you?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060401/ap_on_re_us/border_samaritans_2

KansasDem
BTW: I’m glad I’m not fighting this battle alone, but we can’t win. Extremism and racism are just too damn hard to overcome.

Iowa Bob,
Now, there is a reasonable statement. It is true that as long as America has access to people willing to work for less than the average American worker there will be jobs, such as the meat packaging businesses that will benefit.

However, this has been a common complaint about every minority that has arrived in America. Who then is really at fault? The people desperate for work? Irish, Italian, Japanese and Chinese that came here just like our ancestors? Or the businesses that exploit this labor?

I believe we need workers. We need reasonable labor costs that allow a worker to maintain a good lifestyle. Our aging workers are retiring and we know that we need new workers (more than we are going to have from American born citizens and legal aliens) to pay into social security.

I know all about the studies and the costs… even some of the liberal studies say that it breaks out about even… costs of society versus the benefits of the immigrants… however, is that because of them as a people, or them as a legal status? If they could work here legally, would the associate society costs still be so high? Or, would they now be getting health insurance along with American workers, full pay into the state the same costs for education and social benefits… maybe join workers in collective bargaining.

The companies have always done a good job at selling themselves as the epitome of American virtue while painting any attempts by workers to collectively deal for wages and safe conditions as unAmerican… even Communist.

Note the first comment made on this blog. It was an attempt to frame any criticism of business as Leninist. Not to contemplate possibilities, but to assign the requisit scary “buzzword” that has no real meaning but a lot of emotional connotations.

How can a discussion be had when one party puts their fingers in their ears and yells commie, commie? It then becomes a discussion of one person against the weight of the other person’s dogma. I predict that the disagreements anyone might have with what I am posting will have more to do with adherence to a political belief system, rather than the facts.

It is true that many of the early leaders in the labor movement were socialist or communist. This wasn’t true of the American workers. Shared interests in what is good for them doesn’t mean that they agreed with anything else… just decent wages and a safe environment.

When companies ban together they are called trade organizations. They have loads of money, lobbyist in Washington and access to the pundits and notables in the Republican party.

Creating 2 or 3 million jobs (whatever number a person chooses) overnight by removing all illegal aliens from the work place will not fix them problem.

Yes, it will increase wages, but it will also lead to spiraling inflation where those large paychecks might easily buy you less.

Why is this? Because, no CEO would ever allow the increased labor costs to be absorbed by the company… and he sure isn’t going to reduce his multi-million dollar salary or that of his cronies to compensate. So, they just jack up the price.

President Reagan made disparaging remarks about unions and the American public gleefully went along. Labor unions lost a lot of influence and members… companies are eliminating retirement packages, profit sharing, passing on the costs of insurance to the workers without any compensating increase in wages…

These are profitable companies, not ones on the ropes. Why? Because they can. Period. End of story.

Even when the plead poverty and get tax breaks like anyone has ever seen it isn’t enough… they just keep wanting to give and give… past the point of it being reasonable fiscally or politically. I believe this is because they know that things change and it is time to empty the coffers (too late) before they get thrown out.

Republicans point to the economy picking up. Casual versus causal, cause and effect, . These they don’t want to look at. Is the economy rising as a result of the tax breaks or would it be rising anyway due to contraction of inventory and companies finally needing to replace the workers they cut or have retired anyway? If the increase is due to the tax cuts, by how much?

Now, instead of discussing or researching, or even questioning whether it should be looked into, Republicans act as if it is communistic or heresy.

They yammer on, like a mantra or a religious creed certain phrases like free market. I believe in the free market. That is why “Supply Side Economics” is silly. It is a finer distinction than Supply Side Planning which the communists did do and we all know those results. Things were produced but the consumer didn’t want them.

Tax cuts should go to the consumer. Let them chose which toilet paper company does well by purchasing that product… not giving money to all toilet paper makers.

Tax and Spend Democrats my aching tush. The American people will believe anything if they are told it enough.

That is why I say we need more focus in education on political science, the social studies, economics, logic and philosophy. It doesn’t have to be incredibly deep, but our future adults need to know how to think for themselves… how to be critical consumers of the news, world events, political propaganda and rhetoric.

We need to do something… but eliminating millions of workers from the work force will not give the happy solution that people think it will… unless a $10 burger or a $2.50 loaf of bread is okay.

BillS:
Post: April 1, 2006 0901 PM
You have amazing insight into the real problem here and you totally nailed it on the head. I really enjoyed this post, THANK YOU!

Darren7160

Thank you for your response of April 1,2006 06:35 PM
However, I do not really understand your connection in combining a course on Illegal Immigration Control with a study on Genocide. I am sorry; but, I just do not see how the two subjects are connected, or how they can be connected. The first is a legal inforcement of our countries laws, while the latter is physical distruction of persons or a people outside of legal means. Genocide can be racist or just to obtain another peoples land or can even be for religious reasons, i.e. the Christian Crusades or The Great Inquisition.

I also have a hard time with your math. Yes, illegals buy things here and do pay sales tax. If you estimate $1.6 Billion, I wouldn’t argue with that figure. However, something purchased here in this country has little to do with whether that person paid taxes and other deductions from their pay check or not, also those taxes collected on sales do not care if the person buying that item is here legally or not (or what color their skin is). If illegals pay taxes, like property tax because they are buying their home, then that’s great! It lessens the support for schools on the rest of us. But, you know as well as I know that most of the time this is not the norm but the exception. I do expect that their employer pay them fair wages, just like they would anyone, and deduct Federal Imcome Taxes, Social Security, L & I, and allow them to join a Union and barder for fair wages just like the rest of us too. But, you know full well that by the virtue of them being illegal, that their employers are just not going to do that. And, this hurts our society, hurts our ability to have a fair field as far as employment, and hurts our economy.

You seam to think that by getting rid of illegals that prices will go up, no more jobs will be created, collective bargining will never come back, and business will continue to rape us, anyway. Well, you may be right. (I don’t believe in trickle down economics either). And, you will be right if people continue to vote against their best interest and continue to vote for business protection through the Republicans that are “in bed” with them. There is also a danger that you may be right if the “New Age” Democrats are elected next time that are also “in bed” with big business. (There are so many, from both parties).

You seam to be quite emotional about this subject and talk of “Death”, “Genocide”, and anyone that wants to do something about such a large section of our society breaking the law and hurting all of us, that you call us “with no or little moral” imparitive. I get the impression that you would even call me “heart-less”. That is sad, because usually only Republicians call us names like, “terrorists” or “communists”, heck they have even made the word “Liberal” a four letter word. I assure you that I am the kindest most loving person that you would ever meet. I have sympathy for these people. I was raised in Southern California, I had a lot of them as friends and school mates. But, they are caught up in a cycle of law breaking, that is not benifiting America, Americans, or themselves. The only benifits here is to big and small greedy businesses (and individuals), that use them to help distroy their rights and our countries economy. While all the while, breaking the law.

We need our immigration laws to be put back to where they were in the 50’s and 60’s. We need to have Ellis Island back again, and quotas, and Political Amnesty, and Health Tests, and a legal system of immigration tracking. And, if you think that this is barbaric or inhuman…then I guess that you just have an over-developed personal, emotional connection to this subject. And, please don’t tell me how awful we are to protect our boarders. We still have people on the wall in Korea and we still defend that boarder there. It’s just a shame what we can do for other countries, but we have to feel guilty over doing the same thing to protect Americans. We can send Billions to help hurricain victums in the mid-east, but we can preform real Genocide on the people of New Oleans. (our own people) It is truely heart reanching to see what Bush has done to this country. But, Lord knows he’s had enough time and support of the American People to get the job done. After all, he and his daddy have had 20 out of the past 28 years in office. So, much damage in that amount of time, is mind-bogeling. He should consider that he and his family have been very successful.

As far as my politics are concerned, I am so far “left” that my son (the Republician) calls me a “Communist”. But, this communist says, “Did you ever think that if we did things right, like they were done when I was growing up (a time of REAL MORALITY), we would do everything in our power to stop illegal employment and help support legal migration. If you really want to help illegals, then get them to stop breaking the law, and HELP them become REAL AMERICANS, with real American jobs, with real benifits, a real chance for a living wage, and a real oppurtunity for “THE AMERICAN DREAM”! …(otherwise you’re no better than the big corporations that are inslaving them, and thus are guilty of the real bigotry, here).

“I do not really understand your connection in combining a course on Illegal Immigration Control with a study on Genocide”

PlayNice,

I believe I was the first to connect the two here. IMO we Americans started down that road by labeling “undocumented workers” as “illegal aliens”. BTW only about 56% of “illegals” are from Mexico.

We speak of creating a new class of felons, to quote you, “This point of “it will blow up in our faces‎ if we get too rough with trying to enforce our laws against illegals. Oh fiddle faddle, pish posh! Let them kick and scream. The ones that kick and scream the loudest should be the first to be arrested. Maybe 25 years in American prison will take some kick out of them, and then deport them back so that President Fox can have his wack at them for another 25 years.” I seriously doubt that the majority of the protesters are “illegals” but they are largely hispanic, but what the hell, let’s round them up anyway.

Finally, in response to this earlier question plied by me: “BTW, at what point due armed border guards shoot? At what point do they render humanitarian assistance?” this is what I got:

(#1): ““BTW, at what point due armed border guards shoot?‎

As soon as they cross.

“At what point do they render humanitarian assistance?‎

By not firing upon the other country when they are removing their dead.

Posted by: kctim at April 1, 2006 11:06 AM”

and (#2): “kctim
A) When they have them in their sights
B) Never
C) Don’t be silly, the other side isn’t going to remove the dead, that again will be OUR job to clean up their mess.

Posted by: PlayNice at April 1, 2006 11:32 AM”

Well, color me stupid, sounds like a matter of “dehumanizing” and potential genocide to me!

I’m also curious just how much it would cost to inprison several million “illegals” for 15 to 25 years. I’ve addressed that before. What about the kids? Foster homes? Orphanages? Of course we must stop all humanitarian aid and punish those who do provide aid, wow! Starve ‘em! That’ll solve the problem!

No connection between the “immigration issue” and genocide? I wonder.

KansasDem

KansasDem,

I’m going to take you are your word. Meaning that you are from Kansas, and that you’re a Democrate. On these two assumptions, I just have one question. How can you possiably take the stance that you are takeing?

I have read the artical link that you posted. What I got out of it was that two American Legals were, through charitable means, are trying to help Illegals enter this country. I do not mind their good intentions or their humanitarian efforts. That’s commendable! However, their efforts would be better served if they were also trained in CPR, and basic peramedic training as well. This in no way constitutes an approval for these two people to break the law, or to help others to do so. We do not have one group of laws for Americans and one group of laws for non-Americans. The law is the law. It’s not racist, it’s not designed to keep one group of people down while allowing another group of people to act with impunity. Their efforts would be better served if they would have helped the illegals and then turned them over to the boarder patrol or police. They were prosecuted? Well, boo whoo. They should have been, THEY BROKE THE LAW. Do you propose that we just pick and choose the laws that we want to adhear to and just disreguard the others? This is America, and if you don’t like the laws like they are, then change them. Hey, that’s what big business interests do, isn’t it? And, that’s why we got into this mess in the first place! Business has a special interest in keeping their employees illegal, and living below the poverty level and without recourse to get better pay, health care, and many other benifits that legal citizens enjoy.

And, to answer your question about how far are we into Genacide, anyway? I’d say we are on step #6. But, WE have not done this. Not us Americans, not us day to day working tax payers. Business interests and business protectionism that has had the 12 Regan/Bush years, and now the 5 Bush years, (to flourish), has created this drastic riff in our society between their employees and average American citizens. If there is any Genicide going on here it is from Corporate interests for corporate Profits. Americans are not benifiting from this situation. Illegals are not benifiting from this situation. AND I AS A FELLOW DEMOCRAT AM NOT YOUR ENEMY.

Yes, you’re right. The situation is “dehumanizing” and it does have potential genocidal results. But, illegals and Americans should be fighting together to see the real truth of the origins of this situation. And, makeing these people legal,at the drop of a hat, just because we can not deal with this situation, will NOT CHANGE ANYTHING.
We have to protect our boarders. PERIOD. And, if jobs were not available here, THAT WOULD BE A MUCH EASIER JOB! Period. If illegals were to be declaired a felony, then the sucking sound from the exodus could be heard from here, (WA State) to the boarder. (kinda like that sucking sound we were told would happen by NAFTA). This may actually suprise you but this is not especially a new issue. I listen to a lot of talk radio. And, thank God now, for Air America. Sure there will always be those calls from those that are here illegally and want to stay that way. And, there are calls from those that have become legal but don’t want family members to be deported. But, a large protion of those calls about illegals comming from legal immigrants usually have the same tone. They say that illegals ARE hurting the economy. They say that there are no health checks and that many diseases are comming over the boarder. They say that hospitals and schools are in crisis because to the glut of illegals. And, they say that 1/3 of boarder town prisons are occupied by illegals that are criminals. THIS IS BREAKING OUR BACK FINANCIALLY. Have you heard the calls on talk radio about the Mexican Police crossing the boarder to escort drugs? President Fox says that these are not Police but drug gangs dressed like police. No matter, how can this possiably continue? You want anarchy? The best way for you to get your wish is for this impossiable situation, (this impossiable, illegal situation) to continue. I’ve lived through black riots in Watts in the 60’s and believe you me, they had a right to. I remember Viet Nam riots from the 60’s and I do remember Kent State. That’s going to be a “walk-in-the-park” compared to the road we are on, now.!

Again I ask, as a Democrat, how can you possiably take the position that you are taking? This is not a “humaine” issue. This is not a “rasist” issue. This is not a “us vs them” issue. This is a moral issue. This is what is right, and what is wrong; what is legal and what is against the law. This is what is best for America and Americans, vs what is harmful. In the past 5 years, if President Bush has opened his mouth, he’s been lying. He has broken the laws of this land at every oppurtunity. He’s lied to Congress, and the American people about this war. He’s outed a CIA agent and lied about it. He’s lied to the people of New Orleans (after he was the one that created that “natural” disaster (by his fund cutting programs) in the first place, both with FEMA and with levy construction-the first time in 37 years that work was stopped on that levy). He has illegally spyed on Americans without search warrents and without being responsible to our courts. He has broken the “rule of law” at every possiable turn. So, again, .. How can you, a Democrat, sit there and tell me, that breaking the law is “OK” for illegals that pour thru our boarders at the tune of 1 million each year; but, isn’t not “ok” for our President and his Republician supporters to break the law?

Please, let me know what the difference is, here?

PlayNice,
One of the things I have always appreciated about Democrats and Liberal is their ability to discuss the issues without worrying about appearance and how it will look if there is disagreement. The Republicans used DeLay as his strong man and we are starting to see the cracks.

What my problem is, and which no one wants to consider is the probability of devestating damage to human beings a mass exodus would cause.

Hysterical? Possibly. But, I would bet if you went through the progression of my posts here and on this blog on associated immigrant topics you would see that I started out trying to defend them as human beings and refusing to demonize or dehumanize them… explaining that it is not possible to move up to 20 million people without serious consequences… ones that were not being considered.

Results? People didn’t believe or didn’t care. Knew and accepted the death, disease and heart ache… some with almost sadistic glee. (But, of course, they have nothing personally against the illegal immigrants…. it is just they are here illegally. As if that justifies anything that happens to them).

So… maybe we sould take this one issue at a time to prevent confusion.

1) Is it possible to expect to move up 20 million of people in a short time without a terrible human toll?

2) If there is.. I would like some ideas on how this will be accomplished.

3) If it cannot be done, how do we justify it? They are criminals yes as defined by their being here illegally… felons? At the moment no, but soon? Probably. Does the breaking of a law classified as a felony justify the cost in human lives and suffering?

4) If genocide does not meet the necessary definition then we can find another or make one up… there are a lot of “cides” which is a sad statement for humanity.. homocide, patracide, fratracide, suicide, genocide, regencide, matracide, etc…).

I believe that any action taken to harm millions of people either through direct action, such as forcing them onto a rail car or a bus knowing at the destination awaits disease, hunger and homelessness… that should qualify as a “cide.”

As I have noted… the Nuremberg laws were designed to create a lawless class… thus allowing people to not have to feel bad about what was happening. The point here, is that the law and people’s blind obedience to it was used to justify and dehumanize a whole group of people… in this case for religous and racial hatred, not to mention removing them from any positions of power, influence and finance.

It also gave a nice veneer of respectabilty for the German citizens. What could we do? They were illegal. It was in our vital interstes to remove subversives, those draining our lifeblood and corrupting our youth.

We can argue the us versus them. We can do that until the cows come home. The net results? If they cannot be moved safely… the net results will be the same. Rationalizing it away does not make it different.

After witnessing our troubles with people fleeing New Orleans do you think that we can move 11 to 22 million people in a short time? Look at the cities that have taken in the people fleeing N.O. Do we think that all the nations receving back these people will have the facilities… food and shelter to take care of them?

Oh, but we can say that isn’t our problem. They are illegal and we cannot be responsible for what happens once they are back in their country.

I prefer to call it the way I see it. I am tired of bad ideas being given different names or new and improved spin.

I agree that something needs to be done. I want something to be done. However, I will not actively or passively step back and say, “What could I do?” when my grandchildren ask about this.

Now, someone out there with intelligence and much greater insight might be able to prove I am wrong about the impact on the immigrants, our economy and the countries receving them back and I would love to hear that I am wrong. I really would.

But first, let’s stay on one topic at a time to avoide tangents.

Can upto 20 million people be moved without serious consequences?

Darren 7160

A) The damage of a mass exodus? Americans are the most charitable people in the world. We give to Jews, that want to move to Isreal. We give to feed the children. We give to GoodWill, the American Heart Fund, The Red Cross, and numerous children hospitals. And, it looks like most of the aid to victums in New Orleans will also be from the public at large, because the only funding that seams forthcoming from the Government is to bulldoze down the homes and rebuild/not for the people of New Orleans, but for new, financially well-off, home owners. Besides, any person wanting to avoid a criminal charge could go to the local INS and be transported back to the boarder at no charge. This would be a lot cheaper in the long run, than to support such an illegal population over the long haul. And, just one day’s funding for the war in Iraq should foot the bill. (A billion dollars would go a long way to relocate 2-3 million people). Besides not all would go. Some that could prove that they were here for a long time, say 25 years of more (even 15 years or more), could stay with special dispensation. (As long as they wanted to become citizens - legally).

B) Panic? There is absolutely no need for panic. If given say, 6 months until the new laws go into effect, most illegals could actually use their last pay checks to get transportation home. Or, arrange for other avenues to tie up loose ends here, before returning to their home country. I know that some say that they send money home. The estimate is anywhere from 17 to 40 Billion per year, goes out of this country. I also know that even though money goes out it’s not necessarily to “rich” relatives. But, plenty of people here in this country have to live with family, or even on the streets because their paycheck does not provide for housing (some, if not most on the streets are employed; and some, if not most, are women and children on the streets). How can you think that the plite of illegals should be any worse, or deserve to be better, than that of our own poor people, right here in the U.S.?

C) People don’t care what happens to them? I just don’t agree with that. I believe that it’s just that most people realise that sometimes when people knowingly break the law that they should be expected to pay some consequences for their actions. I don’t honestly believe that anyone would want people to suffer or to die. But, for those that knowingly break the law and continue to do so? Hey, if there is a penalty, and that is a stiff penalty, so be it. Most of us find ways to live in this world, honestly. And, most of us mean well. And, most of us just want a good life for ourselves and our families. But, most of us won’t break the law to get that “good life”. (Thank God). And, if you are worried about what will happen to them on the way back home? Hey, they got here, and that was much much harder and much more life threatening, than it will ever be, for them to go back, VOLUNTEERLY. (Sorry, I just do not have spell check). (There is even talk about once they register, and go home, that they can be put on the fast track to come back, legally, - if quotas allow).

1) Yes, if it’s over say 6-12 months,

2) And, if most of it is done on a volunteer basis. This is a much different situation than Natzi Germany. No one is trying to hurt them, we are just trying to get them home where they belong, then back again if possiable…legally.

3) We don’t need to “justify” anything. No one needs to “justify” the law. You can change the law. You can ignore the law. But, no one “needs” to justify the law. Do they deserve felony status?. Well, we sure need to do something more than slap them on the wrist, like we are doing now. Penalties have to be stiff, because the incentive has to be great.

4) This situation needs to change, or we really will have genocide. The genocide of our whole society, Americans and Illegals alike. And, the real shame is, we didn’t create this problem, either of these two groups. It’s Greed and Big Business that created this; but, it’s PEOPLE, innocent people on both sides that will pay the price if this situation is not resolved, both by holding the illegals and the businesses who employ them, responsible.

No one here is talking about putting on Jack-Boots and hearding these people into cattle cars. We are only makeing laws that already exhist a little more strict and more incompacing to enclude business’ that employ illegals. (The real culprit). The penalties have to be harsh enough for people to take action, not to put themselves in that situation, if caught. The penalties have to be broad enough as to make the law effective. Once the jobs dry up, the illegals will. It’s flat that simple. If there are any Jack-Boots on the march, maybe they will finally march into businesses and put owners that employee illegals in prison, or at the very minimum, sell those businesses at public auction. If the jobs dry up and illegals do not have the documentation to get real jobs, or face long years in prison if they do (use fake ID), don’t you think that even the very committed will find a way to “get out of dodge”, so to speak, once this plan goes into effect? I believe that they will.

We can no more be responsible for what happenes to them once they get back to their own country, than we were responsible for what happened to them there, before they came here. We can not “save” the world. We are not responsible to support the world nor the poor of the world. If we must help the poor, the hungry, the people in search of justice, and in search of the American Dream? We have plenty of those….right here. They are called Americans. And, I don’t think that you should clean your neighbors house, until you’ve fully cleaned your own.

And, our current situation in Iraq is a real prime example of THAT. Look at how well we’ve brought “our Brand” of Democracy, to those people!

If you don’t think we can move 20 million people, with that plan? Want to make it 30 or 40 million, in another 10 years?

Marysdude
Once again your reading something into what I’ve said that ain’t there.
Did I mention taxes or busted budgets? All I said was we’re already supporting a lot of other countries. It’s called foreign aid.
And I have to wounder how much good it’s really doing.

>>And I have to wounder how much good it’s really doing.

Posted by: Ron Brown at April 2, 2006 09:56 PM

Ron Brown,

My point was that the amount of foreign aid budgeted is so small that even if it is a total waste it’s not worth getting excited about, and some of it might actually be doing good.

Put it this way, if our actions of invading Iraq, violating prisoner treatment agreements, human rights violations, creating religious hatred cause other nations to suspect our motives, perhaps our aid to several African nations to help with the A.I.D.S. epidemic and starvation will show those nations that our motives may be mistaken, but perhaps not hateful.

Darren
However, this has been a common complaint about every minority that has arrived in America. Who then is really at fault? The people desperate for work? Irish, Italian, Japanese and Chinese that came here just like our ancestors? Or the businesses that exploit this labor?

There’s the rub. The folks you mentioned above for the most part came here legally. Unlike the illegals that are showing up today.
These folks came here legally and were willing to take whatever pay they got. The businesses that hire them knew this and didn’t pay them squat. That put the blame on the employers.
While the illegals today are willing to take what ever pay they can get, they’re here illegally. The employers that knowingly hire them don’t pay them squat. The blame here goes to both. The illegals for being here. And the employers for hiring them.

GENOCIDE?

I can’t believe I am seeing anyone post that enforcing the law is genocide.

We’re not some backwards country. We have laws, and haven’t enforced them.

Whoever got the idea of cattle cars and buses? It could be as simple as no more catch and release, more INS agents, more investigation of the employers that the government ALREADY KNOWS hire and use illegal aliens.

You can play semantics and call them undocumented workers to try to soften the fact that they are here illegally, but it doesn’t change that fact.

There is a guest worker program already in place. It probably needs improvement, but to try to put a label of genocide on any attempt to stop the flow of illegal aliens is bizarre.

So they will starve and die if they go back to their own country? How is that our problem? Many die trying to get here, in terrible ways.

Like another poster said, we have enough of our own poor and can’t or won’t take care of them.

Charity begins at home.

Ron Brown wrote:

Darren

“There’s the rub. The folks you mentioned above for the most part came here legally. Unlike the illegals that are showing up today.”

Exactly my point!

The blame here goes to both. The illegals for being here. And the employers for hiring them.

Amen brother, when you have two people who are breaking the law, why shouldn’t both be punished?

Posted by: Ron Brown at April 2, 2006 10:17 PM

womanmarine,
I am sorry if you believe that enforcing a law that tries to move 11 to 20 million people in a short time genocide. If there is large scale death and disease resulting from this… would you care to suggest a name? “Illimicide”? Also, note… I have been scrupulous in calling them illegal immigrants. I have not once throughout this site called them undocumented anything.

I have attempted to encourage people to actually think through all hysteria and hoopla. To contemplate the means and the resluts for a moment rather than just on the “problem” of their being here. To no avail… people would rather argue a legal status then an economic, logistical, moral or philosophical exercise.

Some may mock that… but I have been witnessing all to often the results of the American people taking “think tank” self-referential papers and run with them… all the way to a war in Iraq. And, like the war in Iraq… it is all about the why… not the how.

We knew Saddam was terrible… but they never contemplated how to remove him (other than invasion) or what to do afterwards. Ooops. That wasn’t in our charter.

We all know that something needs to be done about illegal immigrants… but all the thinking has been into justifying the removal of these people. Not how or what would be the consequences. They might give a very very very simplistic… “Well, it will save the tax payers $1.6 billion dollars in health and education expenses.” And, it seems that is about the extent of their thinking. Why they call them “think tanks” I will never know… except that they think in a very narrow environment with like minded people (groupthink) and usually their theoris “tank” when brought into the real world?

Playnice seems to be under the impression that it can be done so easily. Possibly you have some ideas?

If the movement of that many people leads to a large amount of suffering and death, then we will just call it enforcement. Maybe I just see million and try to imagine millions of individual people and it is an incredible number.. more than I can really get my mind around.

The hoopla and hysteria against these people have lead people to once again feed their self righteous blood lust… and, just like those cheering the President and renaming food… they will wake up with another emotional hangover, looking at the cost in blood and dollars they will wonder what the hell it was they did.

No, we don’t need jack boots.. we just need to stir up the American people… give numbers after numbers, some actual, some meaningless… we dehumanize them by implying they are all lazy, or drug addicts or criminals with 13 arrests apiece. We throw in a bit of moral outrage because of the “legal” status and already the American people are ready to roll up their sleeves, gird their loins and do what is “right”.

How about the Trail of Tears? Those people were a security problem where they were… costing the people financially… if we don’t buy that argument, they had land we wanted. Or, we thought that moving them to an arid environment as alien to them as Mars is to us was in their best interests? We always want to believe that we are not like the others… that somehow we are better… we are different and this is the reason… Great.

I agree that charity begins at home. As playnice mentions… one day of our war would, in his opinion, easily pay for the cost of relocating all these people. Intrestingly, that same one day expense is very close to what some quote the cost of the illegal immigrants in America for an entire year. May, we in the family of America, disagree with which charity our money goes to?

Our charity by the Republicans of $22 billion to a couple of HMOs didn’t even cause people to bat an eye. That gift was about $600 million more than the cost of 11 to 20 million people.

When it comes to what people value… I have to look at their actions… all too often a person will say one thing but their actions say something else. Which can I trust? I choose their actions. And, in this case, I see their concern is “money” and “legal” status… they don’t bat an eye at $2.2 billion for the HMOs but go nuts at the $1.6 billion for human beings.

If charity begins at home, I would rather not have my charity go to the HMOs. I guess they weren’t sated with the Medicare hand out.

Now, as typical, again there is playing with the numbers to make everything seem more humane… he is now saying 2 million instead of the 11 to 20 million cited by others. He believes that the cost of one day in the war in Iraq, that he places at 1 billion would easily move 2 million people.

That is $500 apiece. Sounds good. But, if it is 20 million then we need to move the decimal point… and it is now $50.

Playnice,
If you say a law doesn’t need to be “justified” then I think you are wrong… each law should have a “justification” otherwise it is made arbitrarily. Avarice and hubris are just a few of the words to describe that type of action. I for one do not believe that in America, any law should be made without justification.

It should be justified to all when it is being legislated, which it is in the committees and the debates and the voting of the law. It is justified by the President when he signs it. It should also be periodically justified to see if it is meeting its intended purpose.

I am sorry, but I didn’t see anything you mentioned showing how 11 to 20 million people can be moved. Would you like some time to contemplate those numbers?
Just one State
New York 19,227,088
or 3 States
Michigan 10,112,620
Minnesota 5,100,958
Missouri 5,754,618

Okay, we disagree on the human toll. Now economics… imagine American businesses losing either New York or Michigan+Minnesota+Missouri. That is an incredible amount of consumers. That won’t have an impact?

They are building a new apartment complex next door here. Imagine 20 million people with say, 4 people in each family… that is 5 million housing units. Take a look at what building apartments and homes contributes to our economy and then imagine a glut of housing… sure rent would go down, but all the jobs associated with building apartments and homes, as well as the jobs manufacturing all the fixtures and materials would be impacted. Just another small example of the “more than the cost of a salad” argument.

Taxes. When the cost of illegals to society is stated, it is assumed that no one is paying taxes or very few. What is ignored is that if there is a legal means for these same people to work… then they would what? Somehow not pay taxes? They would, which would very very quickly reduce that cost to society to a number that isn’t so scary, or possibly a net gain… that is why anti-illegal immigration people do not want to go near this issue. It takes a large bite out of their argument.

Unemployment. As a liberal, when I was taking my different economic classes I didn’t like the fact that America relied on a certain percentage of unemployed to modulate the cost of wages… but it is a fact. The number of unemployed needs to be there to keep down inflationary pressures.

This is not denied by most people. It is even discussed all over… by our politicians when they talk about the shrinking numbers and our rebounding economy… the unemployment numbers are just about right. This isn’t a liberal concept… it is a bedrock Republican economic concept.

Again, look at those states above. I am trying to be as honest with myself as possible, so imagine the workers not being there. The means of manufacturing is.. the people are not though. No workers, no consumers, no renters, no used car buyers… Areas lose the ability to sell their used car at a reasonable price because there are now a glut of used cars… great for the person buying a used car… not so great for the seller… or the auto workers if the seller wanted to buy a new car.

What I am asking people to do… is to move their thinking out a bit. Not to change their minds… but to go beyond the rhetoric and the chest beating… do a bit of free association without political, legal or nationalistic preconceptions.

It seems many people focus on one thing… maybe it is because my mind doesn’t work like that… I see so many different factors all inter-related… some stronger than others, some less. But I rarely see anything as a “single” issue.

To anyone that feels a need to reply…
I know they are illegal.
I know I am a bleeding heart hysterical liberal
I know that they are all drug addicts
I know that they all drive drunk
I know that they are all criminals
I know that it isn’t fair to compare us to Nazis because they are illegal
I know they cost $XXXX amount of dollars
I know that we need to stop the inflow.
I know I am an intellectually weak person who doesn’t understand
I know I don’t understand economics
I know we are different than the rest of the world because…

The immigration bill has worked well to divide the country and loose perspective of what started the immigration problem in the first place.

Why not go back to basics? So instead of talking without really knowing why not look at the data. And by the way, by this I do not mean to compare unemployment rates because it is comparing apples to oranges.

Simple, Mexico’s unemployment rate is calculated with a definition of employment that includes people 12 years and older and counts “marginal employment” as employment due to the lack of unemployment insurance. The US follows the OCDE guidelines for unemployment calculations including people over 16 years of age and not counting “marginal employment‎ as employment, just to mention some of the differences.

There are ~11M illegal immigrants. Assuming the PEW Hispanic Center survey data for Mexican illegal immigrants applies for all Latin-American immigrants, 95% of them have jobs. The main