Democrats & Liberals Archives

Republican Crackup on Immigration

As a rule, Republicans are excessively competitive and fight like hell because they are positive they are right. You can see this by their disdainful approach to our allies abroad and to their political antagonists at home, and by the way they are handling the Iraq War. They don’t mind division; they seek it, because it enables them to advertise themselves as the “good” fighting the “evil,” a strategy that has brought and kept them in power. Their latest righteous and divisive cause is immigration reform. The upcoming fight will show Republicans to be mean xenophobes and will lead to a Republican crackup.

Bush famously states "you are either with us or with the terrorists." That is the typically black-white competitive attitude of Republicans. They are forever talking about good and evil, right and wrong, and Christians and atheists. Of course, Republicans are positive they are on the right side of all issues. This is why they fight so hard

When an economic issue arises, Republicans insist that their approach will increase our competitiveness. This is their reason for laissez faire, deregulation, cuts, etc. No need to worry about any other matter. Nothing is more important than competitiveness.

When Republicans keep repeating that they are good, smart, rich, and religious, and all those who disagree with them are bad, dumb, poor and atheists, this naturally causes division. But Republicans thrive on division. You know the old saying of competitive people: "Divide and conquer."

Yes, competition is good - up to a point. When competition becomes excessive it leads to greed, belligerence, and xenophobia.

Greed

Greed, thy name is Republican. Witness what Republicans did when they made K Street a wholly owned subsidiary of the Republican Party. They let themselves be seduced by Abramoff. They wrote law after law to put extra money into the pockets of Big Business. They reduced or disregarded business regulations. Now they are making believe that they will rein in lobbyists. No way. Lobbyists represent the Republican golden goose.

Belligerence

Republicans are so busy extolling their own virtues they get to be belligerent with those who disagree with their point of view. How could people be so stupid as to not see what they - Republicans - know is right. Their bullying tactics showed up clearly enough for the whole world to see in the administration's build-up towards the Iraq War. They were disdainful, arrogant and overbearing with the UN and with our European allies.

Here at home, Republican belligerence showed up in the way they treated dissidents. Anyone who criticized Bush was attacked mercilessly. No need for logic. A good smear would work better - it's not wrong because your cause is right. Liberals who were against the war were called traitors. Republicans are still doing this. Here's the irony: Though Republicans are loaded with belligerence, they attack liberals as Bush haters.

Xenophobia

This competitiveness has gotten so much out of hand, that now some Republicans are becoming xenophobic. Rep Tom Tancredo is the leader of these zenophobes. These congressmen have passed HR 4437, which would make it a felony to come into the United States illegally, penalize people who knowingly help illegal aliens, and calls for a 700 mile wall along the border with Mexico.

"Divide and conquer" in action. This time, however, the Republicans are dividing a good chunk of the American population from their party. Cardinal Mahoney was so upset that he called for civil disobedience; he told his flock to help the poor whether they are documented or not.

In Los Angeles, 500,000 people marched peacefully against this mean, hateful and parnoiac law. These are Latinos for the most part. They will tend to vote against Republicans in the future. This time "divide and conquer" is hurting no one but the Republican Party.

Some Republican senators realize this. They have joined Democrats in the Senate Judiciary Committee for a more tolerant immigration reform bill that does not include the House's felony provision nor the wall. The Republicans will fight it out among themselves. I fear the xenohobes will win. Regardless of the final result, the Republican crackup has begun.


I hope we learn something from these events. Too much competition causes a group to destroy itself.
Too much competition leads to greed, belligerence and xenophobia. It leads to a completely fractured society. Instead of winning friends and influence, it brings enemies and hatreds. This is not healthy.

The cure is to be a little less competitive and a little more cooperative. I hope the Democratic Party presents a slogan that features COOPERATION.

Posted by Paul Siegel at March 28, 2006 6:19 PM
Comments
Comment #136474

Actually, I admire the Republicans for their actions on immigration. You have to stand up for what you believe. This is something Democrats have forgotten in compromising so often. There MUST be a line you will never cross. Republicans may be the next best thing to Mussolini today but at least they stand tall and proud screaming “Heil” with arms outstretched at a 45 degree angle.

Gotta admire that.

Posted by: Aldous at March 28, 2006 7:57 PM
Comment #136479

have to agree with Aldous about the repugNUTS this time. I have a big problem with all ILLEGAL immigrants who must SNEAK into our country and then they have the balls to “demand” us real citizens to make concessiosn for them. Sorry….what part of ILLEGAL do they NOT understand. While crossong into this country is only a misdemeaner, it is STILL a crime and that makes all those who did so CRIMINALS!
GO the FiretrUCK back to your own country! WE can do just fine without you regardless of what you might think!
I have told my elected officials that this issue is non-negotiable and I guess I need to say the same to the rest of the DIMwits, huh!

Posted by: qitqat at March 28, 2006 8:14 PM
Comment #136485

Paul

So Dems are for unlimited immigration and you think all Republicans are against it because they are xenophobic. You probably have not recently read the editorial page of the WSJ or talked to Republican business people. And you may not be in touch with Democratic union leaders.

Immigration is a divisive issue, but the divisions clearly do not respect party lines.

As a conservative, I agree with the WSJ that immigration is a good thing. We should certainly increase the numbers of H visa. It would, however, be useful to make the process of immigration more orderly.

So you Dems support more H visas and more green cards and you don’t think it is a good idea to control the borders.

Aldous

I don’t know if Italians did the same salute as the Nazis. If they did, I doubt they used the German word “heil.”

Posted by: Jack at March 28, 2006 8:26 PM
Comment #136490

I find it strange that Americans (the United States type), still believe hiring illegals is cheaper than paying a little more for a natural citizen. I wonder what the word ‘cheaper’ really means to them. Can they not see how much more expensive hiring illegals is? Maybe those who hire illegals also don’t pay taxes? More taxation is required to maintain the illegal status quo, i.e., Border patrolling, chase downs, arrests, holding cells, medicines, food, deportations, etc., etc.

Short term gratification for payback later…oh…THAT’s where they get the idea.

Posted by: Marysdude at March 28, 2006 8:45 PM
Comment #136491

Paul, I think your attempt to paint the Republican party as xenophobes misses the mark by a few galaxies. Sure, there are self-declared Republicans who are bigots, but, the same can be said of Democrats in Flint or Saginaw Michigan.

The real issue for Republicans and Democrats alike on the immigration reform is avoiding any backlash from the Hispanic Voting Block in the U.S. which could tilt the balance of power in November and in 2008.

That is the motivating factor, not race!

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 28, 2006 8:47 PM
Comment #136493

For me, the problem here is the MASSIVE increase in H-1b visas for foreign workers. As an Americans that has had to train replacements on H-1b and L-1 visas before being laid off I find it deplorable.

In fact my entire department was brought into a room and told we’d be laid off. But first, mgmt said “we want you to train your replacements. Our replacements are Tata India employees, holders of congressional H-1b and L-1 visas.

I listened to yesterday’s subcommittee; they’re planning on massive increases in Nursing jobs too;

We got 20 Million Illegals that want to do jobs Americans don’t want to do.

We’ve got millions of H-1b and L-1 foreign “guestworkers” because there are not enough Americans for these jobs.

According to the Senate we’ve got a horrific nursing shortage.

What jobs do Americans want to do? when they drive all the wages to zero, I guess none.

Posted by: Michael Emmons at March 28, 2006 8:52 PM
Comment #136497

>>What jobs do Americans want to do? when they drive all the wages to zero, I guess none.

Posted by: Michael Emmons at March 28, 2006 08:52 PM

That is just one of the costs associated with hiring imported labor. Soon no one here will have enough money to purchase products. Small businesses will dry up. Large Corporations will move more of their operations off-shore. At what cost? And, all to save a few bucks on labor…

Posted by: Marysdude at March 28, 2006 9:00 PM
Comment #136501

I just hope that more people find this blog today and tomorrow AND that at least some of our leaders(term used loosely), or their staff, know about us.

??When writing your reps, do you link yourself to this blog and the issue you write to them about??

Posted by: dawn at March 28, 2006 9:30 PM
Comment #136504

Its clear the Democrats are incapable of deporting these illegal Latinos. The Mommy Party is simply too nice for the job.

We must put pressure on our Republican Leaders to hold their ground. Deport all illegals and restore the economic balance in America.

We have to show the GOP that they can hold power if they push harsh enforcement and kick Juan out. Contact your Local GOP and encourage them!!!

Posted by: Aldous at March 28, 2006 9:41 PM
Comment #136505

Paul-

This is not a xenophobic law. This is a common sense law, except for the fence idea. There has to be control of our borders. We cannot afford to continue supporting 12-20 million illegal immigrants with health care, schooling, welfare, etc. The monetary and social cost is just too high.

The flood of illegals into this country has already forced the closing of hospital emergency rooms in several border states. Schools are overcrowded, social services are strained to the breaking point, and yet some people want no action taken to stem the tide.

David hit the nail on the head with his post. I will be very suprised if any substantive legislation comes out of all the rhetoric. We can’t upset the Hispanic vote, can we? Both parties are going to court the Hispanics for all they are worth. It is sickening to see our elected representatives acting like common prostitutes. At least whores are honest about their profession.

In another post I set out some of the things I would like to see in our immigration laws. Recognition that anyone entering this country is a criminal and should be treated like one. Anyone seeking health care, schooling, social services, a drivers license or any other service would have to prove that they are either citizens or in this country legally. At the same time, we should loosen the quotas on immigration and allow more to enter legally. And, make sure that they are given every chance to integrate into our society. This does not mean that they should give up their heritage, just adapt to a new one while keeping the best of the old. Having been born and raised on the Mexican border in Texas, I have seen many, many families do exactly this. And, when they finally hold up their hands and take the oath of citizenship, they are very proud people.

Posted by: John Back at March 28, 2006 9:43 PM
Comment #136506

Immigration Crackup
///
Paul, Tancredo might do to the national Rbplcn party what Wilson did to the party in Cali.
Jack, Mussolini came before Hitler, and the salute is from ancient Rome.
Marysdude, cheaper means no benefits of any kind paid to a person who is without alternatives.

Greed and Belligerence are pretty standard fare for the Rpblcns. Xenophobia is more widespread.

My only concern is about communicable diseases. I have to be tested for TB every six months for my work.

The news today mentioned an increase in TB cases locally, because of immigrants from India, Mexico, and The Philippines.

They neglected to mention Russia. Many Russians have received treatment for TB, but did not take the full course of medication, and now carry a more virulent form.

Ellis Island was used to deal with this kind of problem in the 1890s. We are dealing with this on a local, instead of a national level today.

The Federal government needs to stop passing up on this responsibility, since local communities have funding problems, or object to providing any services to people they do not want there.

This is one of many areas where not spending and not taxing is endangering us. Office of Homeland Security, yeah right, that is money well spent.
///

Posted by: ohrealy at March 28, 2006 9:46 PM
Comment #136507

‘The news today mentioned an increase in TB cases locally, because of immigrants from India, Mexico, and The Philippines.’
Posted by: ohrealy at March 28, 2006 09:46 PM


Careful. When I wrote a thread about the diseases being brought across our border I was basically labeled paranoid and crazy. I was told it was a ‘non-issue’.

Posted by: dawn at March 28, 2006 9:50 PM
Comment #136509

///
diseases being brought across our border
from our border with the Philippines, Russia, and India? You would need a lot more expensive wall to deal with that. The federal government is not even dealing with medical problems of legal immigrants.

The concept keeps coming up that Mexico is some strange foreign land. It is our next door neighbor, and used to own the whole southwest part of our country.

Many of the people who come here from there and places south of Mexico are in fact Native Americans. That is like complaining about the people on our own reservations.
///

Posted by: ohrealy at March 28, 2006 10:23 PM
Comment #136510

It seems to me that many people are focusing on the wrong issue. The focus seems to be on what to do about the tens of millions of illegal immigrants that are already in the country. Is this an issue? Sure. Does there presence here have an effect on the nation, on our economy, on our workforce, on our school system? Possibly/probably.

But it seems to me that it’s a secondary issue compared to national security. What we should be addressing is controlling our border (both north and south) first, preventing/reducing future illegal immigration which could likely include more terrorists, then once it’s secured we can figure out what to do with the illegal immigrants that are already here. I don’t think we can realistically solve both issues at the same time. Let’s focus on what’s really important here.

Posted by: Grant at March 28, 2006 10:24 PM
Comment #136513

^^^ a voice of reason?!? ^^^

stop, stop. you’re making altogether far too much sense.

i just can’t fathom… and now my head hurts.

Posted by: diogenes (i) at March 28, 2006 10:35 PM
Comment #136525

If we ship ‘em all back or throw ‘em all in jail, who’s gonna fix my 99 cent filet o’ fish sandwich, large fry, and a diet coke? Come on! I’m an American Citizen with the God given right to receive cheap, quality instant gratification and a reasonable dividend and capital gain on my shareholdings.

Posted by: JW at March 28, 2006 11:19 PM
Comment #136526

We must build the wall. Still, I don’t see why this can’t be a State Issue. The Border States are the ones with the biggest problems. They should have the reproductive organs to deal with them. Put up or shut up. Stop relying on the Federals.

Indeed. This is a matter for the States themselves.

Posted by: Aldous at March 28, 2006 11:22 PM
Comment #136530
We must build the wall. Still, I don’t see why this can’t be a State Issue. The Border States are the ones with the biggest problems.

National security is a state issue? You’re going to trust California to protect the nation from potential terrorists?

Posted by: Grant at March 28, 2006 11:30 PM
Comment #136531

JW

I worked at McDonalds, Pizza Hut and a couple of cheap restaurants. Young people can do those jobs and should. It is kind of sad to think of someone, anyone, immigrant or not, making a career of being counter help at McDonald’s. But it is a good job for young people to learn discipline and customer service.

Posted by: Jack at March 28, 2006 11:34 PM
Comment #136539

///
OMG, what other countries have ever built a wall? East Germany, that was a real good idea. China, it only kept out animals, not people, unless they were on horseback. Ancient Rome? Prison walls, wall of shame, wailing wall, Hadrians Wall, the Antonine Wall, the Vietnam War Memorial Wall. Remember Robert Frost.

The people advocating the wall should be called wallnuts. A wall might actually end up getting in our way if we needed to get to something on the other side. The people in Mexico are not our enemies and never will be. Will the illegals already here be catapulted over the wall? Will there be towers with armed guards like in the Korean DMZ, or at Gitmo? What kind of person comes up with an idea like this?
///

Posted by: ohrealy at March 29, 2006 12:02 AM
Comment #136541

show me a 20 foot wall and i’ll show you a 21 foot ladder

Posted by: Grant at March 29, 2006 12:13 AM
Comment #136543

His name is Tancreado and I like him. I won’t vote for him but I like him.

We need a wall cause a border where a SUV with a bomb can just drive through is no border at all.

Posted by: Aldous at March 29, 2006 12:19 AM
Comment #136547

A wall is a ridiculous idea. Beyond the historical failure of walls as a deterrent, the fact is is that there is more effective technology available to protect the border. Plus, there simply isn’t any substitute for having feet on the ground.

Posted by: Grant at March 29, 2006 12:39 AM
Comment #136550

Wow, this one makes me very uncorfortable. I am somewhere left of Stalin in my politics yet on this tread I find myself in agreement with those Blue people.

Living in (dare I say) California, I see the problems daily caused by illegals. I also work in a Social Services Dept. and it is frustrating when many people who are in dire need of financial help unable to receive it because the funds are drying up for everyone. Just as with the ER’s providing services to those who are not citizens hurts those who are. The funds from the Govt. are not unlimited and there needs to be greater control of that limited pot.

However, this is not a states issue. Do you believe that those who sneak thru Ca, Az, or Tx remain there or do they sometimes go to Alabama or Ohio? So this affects all the nation not just the border states. This is a Fed issue. Let us stem the tide of those coming here against the law and maybe we might find someone who wants more that just a cheap job.

This is one issue for sure that needs both sides of the congress to work together for something other than a block of votes.

By the way I think the Bushco group needs to be impeached.

Michael

Posted by: Michael at March 29, 2006 1:14 AM
Comment #136553

///
Control of immigration is a Federal responsibility. Bushco wants people here, as guest workers, permanent 2nd class citizens, to mow lawns, shovel snow, and clean up after the people too lazy to clean up after themselves.

The local governments object to health care and education costs, so those should be paid for with taxes on the people who employ these low wage workers. If they earn enough to contribute to the tax base, then people who still object are just racist.
///

Posted by: ohrealy at March 29, 2006 1:41 AM
Comment #136554

It’s funny. I think President Bush — well, his rhetoric, anyway — is right on this one. We need a comprehensive immigration solution including tougher border security (which he’s neglected so far) as well as a broader guest worker program.

I say get all those illegals registered, teach ‘em English and make ‘em pay taxes.

Posted by: American Pundit at March 29, 2006 1:41 AM
Comment #136556

I find it interesting, with the rapid demise of the american middle class, how we’ll end up with an upper class, lower class and now BushCo’s lower lower class.

Posted by: Grant at March 29, 2006 2:14 AM
Comment #136560

again the conservatives with their ‘BUILD A WALL’ theory of national security.
Every year, 8 Million cargo containers enter US ports and are hauled out onto American Streets without being inspected. That’s roughly 8 cargo containers for every Mexican who crosses the border. If we increased our cargo container inspections by a thousand percent… that would still leave 4 cargo containers for every Mexican who crosses the border.

Is there ANYONE stupid enough to believe that erecting and manning a wall at the border will significantly diminish the number of mexicans who enter the country illegally???

And who will pay for the wall? The rich, who anxiouly await the next shipment of Mexicans so the tomatoes get picked, the bathrooms get scrubbed and his NAVIGATOR gets washed and waxed? HAH!!! Nope, that’s just another debt we’ll pass on to our grandchildren.

But THE WALL is not the only extremely expensive bound-to-fail idea the republicans have put forth. Oh, no. dubya wants to welcome “the good ‘uns” with open arms. Let them come forward; confess their sins; allow themselves to be inspected, injected and neglected; allow themselves to be documented from here to there; AND THEN IF they pass the test, they can pay all their back taxes and become a welcome guest… welcome to resume their jobs that, as dubya put it, “Americans won’t do”.

racist bastard

Does he honestly believe that Mexicans are THAT stupid??? Would anyone HERE go along with that program? Or would you just mutter to yourself, “asshole” and go back to your job.

I’m sure if the president’s program became law, there would be a few who would come forward… most of whom wouldn’t pass the ‘good egg’ test and will have found that they just volunteered and surrendered for deportation. Those who pass the ‘good egg’ test? Where the hell are they going to get the money to pay back taxes??? By taking yet ANOTHER sub-minimum wage job???

PUT THE BURDON OF THE PROBLEM ON THE PEOPLE WHO CREATED THE PROBLEM… THE PEOPLE WHO GIVE THE IMMIGRANTS THE JOBS!!!

Posted by: Thom Houts at March 29, 2006 3:58 AM
Comment #136569

Unbelievable. Why do Americans get all excited about the idea of opportunities for every kid to go to college; and then we want all the illegals booted out who are doing work we will not do (not even for more money). Also the immigrants are keeping social security solvent by paying in plenty and withdrawing nothing.

Posted by: Schwamp at March 29, 2006 7:26 AM
Comment #136580

Schwamp,

The illegals work under the table for the most part and DO NOT PAY TAXES, income tax, social security, medicare or otherwise.

Posted by: Duano at March 29, 2006 8:54 AM
Comment #136597

Immigration
No matter what side you’re on, Rep or Dem, you have to agree that Illegal Immigration is just that…….

ILLEGAL

Where else is someone who has or is committing a crime being rewarded? “I just robbed a bank, but I’m a good person and and all I wanted to do is to support my family”. (Oh well, in that case, here’s a job, some money, free health care, free education for your kids and please fill out this form so that your crime will now be legal).

IS EVERYONE NUTS!!!

No matter what side your on, Dem or Rep (like I said,) you have to be on the side of stopping the flood of illegal immigration in this country that is causing our cities to bleed money that they can little afford on supporting this maddness who’s only benifits are big business’s profits.

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO GET RID OF ILLEGALS?

It’s really really simple:
1) Sept. 1st 2006, all residents here illegally will be considered a fellon.
2) Sept. 1st 2006, all employers of illegal fellons will be fined $1,000.00 per day per illegal in their employ.

It’s quite simple to solve a problem
IF YOU REALLY WANT TO !!!

Posted by: PlayNice at March 29, 2006 9:37 AM
Comment #136618

I not sure what political standing I am but I do not agree with this. I think if they want citizenship they should have to go back and reapply the right way. It is amnesty in my opinion and this would just allow them to keep disregarding our laws. I don’t know what Bush is thinking, “The jobs Americans won’t do.” I am a twenty year old college student with a two year old daughter who lives on my own and pays all my own bills, and there is no job I would not do to provide my daughter with anything that she might need. I think that is the same with every red blooded American. I don’t know the statistics but how many American cititzens are out of work. I’ll bet the number is close to eleven million or more. All this guest worker program to me is something to put bigger profits into the hands of businesses who don’t want to pay an American the wage that they deserve.

Posted by: Josh at March 29, 2006 11:29 AM
Comment #136629

Can we get off with this argument that illegal immigrants do the jobs Americans don’t want to do? It’s a lie fabricated by BushCo to sell his agenda. While I’m not normally a connoisseur of the National”>National”>http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry200603140822.asp’>National Review Online, they had some interesting numbers that came from a Pew”>Pew”>http://pewhispanic.org/’>Pew Hispanic Center study. It showed that illegal immigrants make up 24 percent of the agriculture workforce. That means 76 percent is made up by American workers. So how is it Americans don’t want to do that job? Likewise, illegal immigrants make up 17% of the cleaning industry, 14% of the construction industry and 12% of the food production industry.

This isn’t a question of filling jobs Americans don’t want to do, BushCo just wants to provide business with a cheap labor force.

And again, I reiterate, questioning what to do with the existing illegal immigrants or what to do about new immigrants that want to come here is ridiculous. Let’s deal with the NATIONAL SECURITY issue first, then figure out what to do about immigration.

Posted by: Grant at March 29, 2006 11:58 AM
Comment #136636

Grant,

I agree with most of what you are saying, but I think the immigration problem has alot to do with national security. If we have a bunch of undocumented people coming in our country and we don’t know if they are people just trying to get a better job or blow us up that has to do with national security.

Posted by: Josh at March 29, 2006 12:20 PM
Comment #136643

///
I do not see a national security threat coming from Mexico. If that was the case they could have blown the whole country up a thousand times already.

FYI, the 9/11 hijackers all cleared because they were prosperous enough to attend flight schools. They stopped one guy because he was too poor and they thought he would be an immigrant who might end up needing public assistance. Maybe that was the guy who would have betrayed the plan and stopped it.
///

Posted by: ohrealy at March 29, 2006 12:42 PM
Comment #136647

ohrealy,

The problem probably isn’t going to be Mexican terrorist, but when you have a border wide open to come as you please that also allows anyone else to travel along it. Not just Mexicans.

Posted by: Josh at March 29, 2006 12:49 PM
Comment #136649

Also, even though a very large majority of our immigration problem is from Mexico it is not the only place these immigrants are coming from.

Posted by: Josh at March 29, 2006 12:52 PM
Comment #136651

Josh

I agree, but that’s why I’m saying stop worrying about guest worker programs, the existing illegals in the country, etc… Let’s secure the border first, then worry about reforming immigration.

ohrealy
I don’t know if you were referring to mexican terrorists or terrorists using mexico as a gateway. I don’t think anyone is worried about Mexican terrorists. I’ve never heard anyone from either side of the aisle bring that up. The problem is that it’s really easy to get into Mexico from other countries where a terrorist may come from and use Mexico as a pass through point to the US. Yes, the 9/11 hijackers came into America by other means, but we’ve locked alot of those access points down. It seems like we should be thinking ahead and lock down potential access points rather than plugging the gaps after the fact.

Posted by: Grant at March 29, 2006 1:01 PM
Comment #136653

Grant,

I see, then I agree with that.

That is what I was saying that it would be an easy gateway for others.

Posted by: Josh at March 29, 2006 1:03 PM
Comment #136654

The whole 20 foot wall 21 foot ladder is a totally fallacious argument. If that were the case, why bother locking your doors at night? A burglar could just pick the lock, or break a window….etc. There is always a point of diminishing return on security, whether it be physical security (I’ve got 14 deadbolts, an iron gate, a card reader…and it only takes me 2 hours to get inside), network security (firewall, passwords, retinal scanners, Intrusion detection, network scanners - but i cant log on cause my network is bogged down).

There has to be a balance between providing some sort of security/protection without making the situation too cumbersome. Does that mean building a wall is the answer? I don’t know. But something has to be done? If you live in a border state - as I do, and see the constant daily effects as to what illegal immigration is doing to BOTH sides, you would understand that this is a serious problem. The tax burden on me and my fellow Californians is ENORMOUS.

I totally agree that immigration should be relaxed, but it has to be legal. If we don’t respect our borders enough to enforce our own laws, why should anyone else. That means illegal immigration should be treated as such - NOT LEGAL! For both sides. These companies that get away with hiring immigrants should be SEVERELY punished. If the market dries up for hiring, I guarantee you that will curb this problem. I honestly don’t see how this is a partisan issue. Every American should be totally for enforcing our own laws and wanting to protect our border???

Posted by: b0mbay at March 29, 2006 1:03 PM
Comment #136658
The whole 20 foot wall 21 foot ladder is a totally fallacious argument. If that were the case, why bother locking your doors at night? A burglar could just pick the lock, or break a window….etc. There is always a point of diminishing return on security

Yes, but there are basic, common sense, minimum standards you would use. You wouldn’t put up a picket fence around your house as a security measure. Walls/Fences have never proved to be effective deterrents.

If you live in a border state - as I do, and see the constant daily effects as to what illegal immigration is doing to BOTH sides, you would understand that this is a serious problem. The tax burden on me and my fellow Californians is ENORMOUS.

I just love how people keep looking at this as it relates to the effects on society and on your tax burden. It’s a national security issue people, let’s get our priorities straight. Your “tax burdon” is a little meaningless if you’ve been killed by a terrorist.

I honestly don’t see how this is a partisan issue. Every American should be totally for enforcing our own laws and wanting to protect our border???

How about this to your buddy at the white house. Maybe he’ll listen to you, he doesn’t listen to anyone else.

Posted by: Grant at March 29, 2006 1:18 PM
Comment #136660

Immigration
///
use Mexico as a pass through point
To repeat, they could have blown the country up thousands of times already. Maybe the Mexicans are the ones protecting us, if the border is so wide open. We are obviously not doing it.

locked a lot of those access points down
This sounds like a claim that government officials would make, with no basis in reality. We want prosperous immigrants, and when the immigration terrorism nexus comes up, we want to build a wall to keep Mexicans out, like that is the solution to the terrorism problem.

It looks more like people want to pretend to be doing something about terrorism, and use it to foist their immigration agenda on the country, keeping brown people out of the country, and expelling those who are already here.
///

Posted by: ohrealy at March 29, 2006 1:23 PM
Comment #136664

ohrealy,

I don’t know about other people and perhaps I’m not explaining my position fully enough, but I fully and whole heartedly support immigration. I’d love to see as many people come into this country to make a better life for themselves as we can possibly handle. I’m just saying let’s address the security issue first, then deal with immigration reform.

You’re right, they could have but didn’t. But it seems like that may have been because there were easier routes into the US. All I’m saying is that these guys can be creative, and our open borders are a vulnerability that we should address.

Posted by: Grant at March 29, 2006 1:35 PM
Comment #136665

How about you tell this to your buddy at the white house. Maybe he’ll listen to you, he doesn’t listen to anyone else.

Posted by: Grant at March 29, 2006 1:38 PM
Comment #136666

It looks more like people want to pretend to be doing something about terrorism, and use it to foist their immigration agenda on the country, keeping brown people out of the country, and expelling those who are already here.
———————————————————

Ohrealy are you Oserious?

“Immigration agenda” There is no agenda?!? Its about:

1) Protecting our sovereign borders - just like the rest of the world does.
2) Enforcing our laws that are already on the books.
3) Trying to further prevent a terrorist attack.
4) Trying to prevent the spread of communicable diseases from countries that don’t practice the same health standards that we do.
5) Trying to fix the fiscal issue of the social service abuse which is creating an unfair burden to tax paying citizens.

Yeah - I intentionally left out “keeping the brown people out” from my list. I think you will find that that is not on 99.9% of ther people’s “agenda”. How could you possibly say something like that?

If given a choice would you rather:

a) totally open the borders, disband INS, border patrol, port screenings, airport security…etc
b) continue to half ass it like we are currently doing.
c) recognize that there is an issue, and come up with constructive ways on how to deal with it.


Posted by: b0mbay at March 29, 2006 1:43 PM
Comment #136679

I am so sick and tired of hearing that “illegals do the jobs Americans don’t want to do.” Thanks Grant for those statistics.

Before the flood of immigration, we got along just fine with Americans doing these so called “jobs”. Myself, I worked in fast food as a teen and even adult. Many lower income whites and African Americans held janitorial positions, garderers, maids, etc.

I am a liberal but on this subject I have to side with the henous bullies and Goons at the white house.

Also A Californian, woahhhhhhh, hot topic for us!! We see the daily effect of unregulated immigration spiral out of control and noone seems to do anything to curtail it.

The liberal bleeding heart is unrealistic in dealing with this issue. Sure we may be for the underdog, but lest we all forget, the American can be an underdog also. What about the poor guy that lost his job to Juan last year??? OR the guy in Detroit losing his job to overseas workers? Ever notice that homeless men and woman are vastly white??

I am not in favour of gueat worker programs either,as I think it encourages more immigration. This is the only subject I agree with Republicans on and man, Bush can’t even get that one right! (there is nothing that man can do right it seems!!)

Liberals and democrats need to stop all this guilt over the small, minority guy and smell the coffee.

We want a fair and balanced American, not one of favoritism and exceptions. At the current rate white Europeans will very soon be the minority. In LA at least, the trend is certainly going that way with Hispanics at roughly 50% of the population.

The strain immigration is causing on welfare, health services and other systems has been reiterated by others and they are correct. Giving ‘amnesty;, and rewarding illegal behavior is certainly not the answer.

Posted by: Eve at March 29, 2006 2:17 PM
Comment #136680

One reason no side will address this issue
with Americans in mind IS VOTES.
We all know Reagans great Amnisty program failed.
It sent the message that sooner or later they will
accept you.
There is NO JOB A AMERICAN WILL NOT DO.
just because we will not do it for slave wage
is the MAIN ISSUE.
The HUMANITARIAN way is to say NO you must
pay a LIVING WAGE.
When all wages are equal it makes it just as
easy to hire a legal person.
Therefore the problem is the people who refuse
to pay fair wage and they are the ones who need
to pay the penalty.

Posted by: Honey P at March 29, 2006 2:17 PM
Comment #136694

///
b0mbay, you are wasting your time responding to me. I have already seen enough of your posts to know not to bother reading them.
///

Posted by: ohrealy at March 29, 2006 3:10 PM
Comment #136706

I agree most closely with Ohrealy on this illegal immigration issue. I’m not denying there’s a problem but whatever we do must both make sense and be humanitarian. Has anyone else considered that what we have here is just a “symptom” of a much greater problem?

The real problem IMO is global poverty. It’s just that this part of the problem exists right next door. Given the size of the problem I almost wonder if we shouldn’t consider this more of an “exodus” than just a matter of illegal immigration.

We must also consider that Mexico also has a problem with “illegals”. Many people migrate to Mexico from, and through, Central America due to poverty and even political oppression. So if we could effectively wall off Mexico altogether would that solve the problem?

I especially find the idea of creating a class of eleven million new felons laughable. What would that cost? Obviously probation couldn’t work. So we could build detention centers to house several million men and women. How many correctional officers would that require? Then you would still be faced with deportation costs upon release. And we could create how many new foster homes or orphanages to care for the children of the illegals? I guess we could outsource it and pay foreign workers to handle it. Sounds rather ridiculous doesn’t it?

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at March 29, 2006 3:48 PM
Comment #136707
I guess we could outsource it and pay foreign workers to handle it.

Hey, we could create a guest worker program to have mexicans come in to be security guards for the illegal immigrants and to run the orphanages for their kids. :)

Posted by: Grant at March 29, 2006 3:54 PM
Comment #136725

wow kansas. seems like dems in california and other border states “get it”. Next time your paycheck’s deductions for your healthcare are less than medicare, and you cant get in to see a doctor - come talk to me.

Posted by: b0mbay at March 29, 2006 5:06 PM
Comment #136734

>>Has anyone else considered that what we have here is just a “symptom” of a much greater problem?

The real problem IMO is global poverty.

KansasDem,

You are right about world poverty being a major problem, but I’m not sure the labor problem in the United States doesn’t have more to do with our denial of the free market system, i.e., if the free market adjusts to supply and demand, and is destroyed without the freedom to adjust to supply/demand, why wouldn’t it be disastrous to import non-citizen cheap labor? Doesn’t that run contrary to the free market theory? Aren’t we introducing false supplies of labor, when demand is high? To maintain a free market, wouldn’t it be saner for the market to set higher compensation? Which of our political parties is supposed to be the free market party?

Posted by: Marysdude at March 29, 2006 6:29 PM
Comment #136740

Treating Illegal immigrants as criminals is apparently going to hurt America more. Not only is it going to hurt America economically but in other yet unthought-of ways. Illegal immigrants are not costing the United States as much, in the other hand; they are mostly what make this country prosperous. America has always been a place of immigration and always will be. Maybe there is a solution to this but the law that is trying to be passed right now is not the correct one. ItⳠa dilemma that will not only hurt immigrants a great deal but also America. These people are not criminals or terrorists they are people who are adding a great deal of prosperity to the United States and should be treated with respect.

Posted by: Tamara at March 29, 2006 6:51 PM
Comment #136741

Kansas Dem, one of the biggest problems is that we have abandoned the U.N. The current administration hates it, considers their aid programs socialist, and refuses to work with countries that are not theeir flavor of the week. There is much good that can be done, but we only want to do things our way, preferably with guns and bombs. Foreign opinions are considered worthless.

I lived in Florida at the time of the Mariel boat lift. People were screaming about the horrible nasty Cubans that were coming here, and making racist jokes. I saw them as people who were empowering themselves, in the same way as my own ancestors, getting away from rigid societies with few opportunities, and oppressive governments in which they could not legally participate.

Posted by: ohrealy at March 29, 2006 7:32 PM
Comment #136751

Tamara-

Illegal immigrants cost this country more than you realize. It has already cost border states many, many Emergency Rooms in hospitals since some judge decided that illegals were entitled to free health care. Hospitals have lost millions of dollars that will never be recovered. Social service agencies are strained to the breaking point because of the increased demand from illegals, schools are overcrowded, etc., etc. Also, estimates are that some 27 billion dollars a year flows back to Mexico from illegals in this country sending money back to their families. That is the second largest source of income next to oil revenues ($35 billion).

Yes, there is a tremendous cost due to illegal immigration. Perhaps the greatest cost is not economic. Perhaps it is the pyschological effect of knowing that lawbreakers are coming into this country at the rate of 2700 per day and we don’t have the guts to stop them.

Posted by: John Back at March 29, 2006 9:32 PM
Comment #136753

I certainly lack the skills to solve the problem, but I am smart enough to realize what the real problem is. In this case it’s simple: the illegals have to consider what’s worse, starving at home or risking death to get here. Of course, then we might detain them and send them back home.

We can either address the problem or try to fix each symptom one at a time. Either way it will cost $$$$$$$. Lots of $$$$$$$$$$! You can only get $$$$$$$$$$ from people that have $$$$$$$$$$!

That part of things is pretty darn simple. Of course we all know the longer you put off a problem the bigger it gets. Then comes the “big” question: who can possibly get elected if they tell the truth?

Life is difficult. The truth is hard to hear. Kerry told the truth. Gore told the truth. Can an honest man (or woman) get elected?

KansasDem
PS: don’t assail me too hard for putting woman in ().

Posted by: KansasDem at March 29, 2006 9:57 PM
Comment #136754

Immigration
///
Hospitals have lost millions of dollars
Baloney, they just spread the cost to anyone else that pays their inflated bills. Poor Advocate, boo hoo hoo.

illegals in this country sending money back to their families
Like legal immigrants do not send money back to their families. It sounds like exactly what is needed to help make conditions better in the country of origin. Notice how the discussion went back to Mexico, even though some of the people coming through Mexico are from further south. Remember, they are also crossing a border into parts of our country, that were once part of their country.
///

Posted by: ohrealy at March 29, 2006 9:59 PM
Comment #136756

John Back,

I have a stupid question: If someone shows up in an ER what should the criteria be for treatment?

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at March 29, 2006 10:02 PM
Comment #136759

Tamara,

Treating someone who is breaking the law as a criminal is not going to hurt America. If we can not obey the law, why have it? The law is there for a reason. The reason is a good one. It protects our boarders, and lets people in, that we know about, and we can monitor their where-a-bouts until they leave or become citizens.

Enforceing the law will not hurt America economically. There are 11 Million Illegals here that send back home (our money) a little over 17 BILLION DOLLARS per year. THIS hurts American’s, economically. And, the drain on our economy; our schools; health care; and social services, is breaking the backs of most of our cities with large illegal populations.

Keeping Illegals here costs jobs, money, social and economic resources. As much as 1/3rd of some boarder prisons are made up of illegals that are there for crimes rangeing from rape, murder, drugs, robbery and other crimes.

Illegals make this country prosperous? What bunk!!! llegals hurt the economy, take jobs away from real Americans, and drain our resources! Immigrants HAVE made America great. But, immigrants (Legal Immigrants) go thru the entrance paperwork necessary to be here legally . They have nothing to hide, and they won’t take jobs from big companies who want illegals to save money, cut costs, not have to pay benifits, and cut the American standard of living.

Yes, America has always been the place for Immigration and it should be, within the LAW. We welcome people from all over the world, but with hordes from Mexico and South America and Cuba here Illegally, how can we sustain those that truely want to come here legally and make a life for themselves???

I respectfully dissagree. If you break the law in any country, you will not be treated with respect and dignity. You WILL AND SHOULD BE TREATED LIKE A LAW BREAKER AND YOU SHOULD GO TO JAIL.!

I repeat, if the sentance for illegals were 15 to 25 years in prison, and if the fine to employers were $1,000 per day, the illegal situation would take care of it’s self in a matter of months. No wall, no fence and no deportation,,,,,,AND NO CATCH AND RELEASE !!!!
PERIOD.

Posted by: PlayNice at March 29, 2006 10:12 PM
Comment #136760

KansasDem
The criteria for treatment should be:
Treat the problem and call immigration to pick up the illegal as soon as possiable and put them in prison,,,,,they’ve broken the law by being here illegally.
If a child is brought in and parental abuse is suspected you’d expect the hospital to call child protective services, wouldn’t you?

I don’t see a problem

Posted by: PlayNice at March 29, 2006 10:15 PM
Comment #136764

///
If the prison population of our country goes up any more, what kind of country will be creating?

We need to have a national policy that the whole population of persons in prisons, jails, juvenile detention, etc., should not exceed 1 per cent of the population. That is too many in my opinion, but is necessary because we have already made so many sinful behaviors illegal.

When people are arrested and put in jail, other people already there should be let out. Prosperous people do not go to jail, why fill a gulag up with less than minimum wage illegals? It is a system based on perversity. I have seen Oz, I know what happens in there.
///

Posted by: ohrealy at March 29, 2006 10:42 PM
Comment #136766

If you were faceing 15 to 25 years in prison, would you really stay in a country with that kind of sentance standing over your head? Then maybe you really should be in prison, (the prison for the criminally dumb).

No, I think if you were facing that kind of sentence….you’d get the heck out of Dodge!

And what an insentive to come here legally!.

Posted by: PlayNice at March 29, 2006 10:52 PM
Comment #136767

PlayNice,

I live near Wichita, Kansas. Twice so far this spring it’s been in the news that the State Patrol has stopped van loads of illegals and INS lacks the resources to pick them up, so they’re released. What we have now is a “catch and release” program. Would you agree?

What are the alternatives?
What are the financial costs involved?
What are the moral costs involved?

I fear that far too many of us fail to realize what we’re really looking at as solutions. I fear we may be on the verge of the second North American genocide. The first was the American Indian.

Is it so hard to see why others want what we have? Is our ultimate goal to have everything for ourselves?

Set me straight, please!
KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at March 29, 2006 10:56 PM
Comment #136773

“If you were faceing 15 to 25 years in prison, would you really stay in a country with that kind of sentance standing over your head?”

PlayNice,

One more dumb question. Who’s going to pay for jailing eleven or twelve million people for 25 years? Oh, and may we please use your back yard to build a new detention center?

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at March 29, 2006 11:20 PM
Comment #136775

Well, lets see, Your faceing 25 years in prison, and you can not find a job because any employer will be fined $1,000.00 per day if you are caught in their employ. So you have no job, no money, your kids can not go to school because they have no birth cirtificate. You have no health care and if you get sick or injured you face 25 years in prison.

Lets see? How many prisons for those people that do not starve to death do you think we need? They can always live on the streets though….

Like real Americans do ! (That is until they get caught)

Posted by: PlayNice at March 29, 2006 11:26 PM
Comment #136777

Oh, and when they do go to prison? Real Americans can have more jobs as new prison workers!

Posted by: PlayNice at March 29, 2006 11:28 PM
Comment #136778

///
catch and release is a kind of terminology intended to degrade and dehumanize real people.

In more prosperous and populous states, I do not think that anyone really cares much about illegal immigration. People recognize that we select countries where we want immigrants, Poles and Koreans are two large groups here, and we do not want immigrants from other countries closer to home.

The most significant distinction we make is that we want people from countries that have a good educational system. Those countries pay for their citizens education, and we benefit from those expenditures.

Immigration is not a one way deal. The people we want to immigrate are a loss to their country, and a benefit to us. The illegals just live closer and have easier access from places with poor educational systems.

KansasDem, no offense, but I think the people you mentioned are just passing through the alfalfa and sunflower fields on the way to somewhere more prosperous.
///

Posted by: ohrealy at March 29, 2006 11:41 PM
Comment #136780

My point is that we don’t enforce the laws we have in place now, so how is making the law harder on the offender going to improve anything?

The “catch and release” thing is degrading. It was meant to be. We are after all talking about how to “repel” countless millions and “expel” eleven million people. It’s all dehumanizing, which is the first step towards genocide.

KansasDem
PS: If I’m too far overboard I’ll back off. I know I’m too far left on some issues and too far right on others.

Posted by: KansasDem at March 30, 2006 12:25 AM
Comment #136784

///
People can always propose more laws. That way you can find an excuse to arrest anyone you do not like. Enforcement is always discretionary.

The millions of people that we are talking about are real human beings with families. Throwing these people out of the country seems so ridiculous to me, that I can not imagine what sort of people would propose it.

These people come from countries that are more civilized than ours, in most ways. It used to be an enigma why El Paso had such a low crime rate. I thought it was easy to understand. It is a Mexican city in the U.S./EEUU

I do not get the genocide references, but I would suggest reading Guns, Germs and Steel, by Jared Diamond. National Geographic did a program on it, which is available on dvd at libraries.
///

Posted by: ohrealy at March 30, 2006 1:04 AM
Comment #136787

Play NIce-


I agree with you in most points but one. The Cubans lumped up in the same boat, (pardon the pun.) as the Mexican, Cental and South Americans. THe great majority of Cubans (the MAriel incident, not-with-standing), come here as political refugees, an entirely different species.

Some are literally fleeing for their lives and come here with not just wiht hopes of living the socalled’ American dream’, but political freedom that is not affored to them in their own country.

ALso the birthrate amongst Cubans is considerably lower per family than the other groups mentioned.

Eve


Posted by: eve at March 30, 2006 2:10 AM
Comment #136803

Let’s be realistic. There is no way to possibly deport or imprison eleven million people. We should make it a felony to be here illegally, if nothing else to give the illegals incentive to go back on their own. We should also have a guest worker program to keep track of who is in the country, and take steps to make it easier to become a citizen. But all of these and other ideas are a moot point without first securing the border. Dubya could, with the stroke of a pen, secure the border today by putting the National Guard there to back up the border patrol. This would virtually eliminate people crossing the border illegally. Liberals say conservatives simplify everything and put everything in black and white. The truth is, EVERY PROBLEM has a simple solution. We just tend to make finding it as complicated as possible.

Posted by: Duano at March 30, 2006 7:29 AM
Comment #136834

>>Dubya could, with the stroke of a pen, secure the border today by putting the National Guard there to back up the border patrol. This would virtually eliminate people crossing the border illegally.

Duano,

Wrong, again! He’d first have to bring the Guard back from Iraq, and he’s already said the next President will have to do that…right now we don’t have enough Guard to secure the border of California, let alone Arizona, Texas, etc.

Posted by: Marysdude at March 30, 2006 11:28 AM
Comment #136850

Marysdude,

I didn’t know the entire Guard went to Iraq. It seems at least one DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR HAS FOUND ENOUGH GUARD TROOPS IN HER STATE TO SEND TO THE BORDER, so why can’t Bush? There are more than enough troops to back up the border patrol, but Dubya’s afraid of how that would “look” to the “world community”, and it sounds like you are, too.

Posted by: Duano at March 30, 2006 12:10 PM
Comment #136861

Duano,

It’s a long border, with a number of difficult spots to stopper. I really, truely don’t give a rat’s pitootie what the world community thinks about our border situation…on the other hand, how they think about our unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation…I might feel a little chagrin.

Posted by: Marysdude at March 30, 2006 12:42 PM
Comment #136870

Marysdude, Unprovoked? How about continuous violation of a cease-fire agreement for twelve years? I know you like to bring up your favorite subject whenever you can, but let’s get back on topic. If Mexico declared war on the U.S., are you saying that we would be powerless against an invasion? I think not. The Guard on the border is the most sensible way to stop the flood of
illegals. It’s also the simplest way, which to liberals must always mean the wrong way.

Posted by: Duano at March 30, 2006 12:58 PM
Comment #136875

>>The Guard on the border is the most sensible way to stop the flood of
illegals. It’s also the simplest way, which to liberals must always mean the wrong way.

Posted by: Duano at March 30, 2006 12:58 PM

Duano,

I hate to sound repetative, but first we have to have enough Guard to secure the border for a long enough period of time to deminish border crossings. We have neither the Guard nor the budget for such activity.

Saddam was zero threat to us. He was a braggart, but we knew that. He was a cruel dictator, but we also knew that. Please tell me what we found out about Saddam just before the invasion that we did not know previously…

If we bring our troops home, we might have enough Guard for the border, and we might save enough money to afford such border security. Perhaps you might suggest that to Cheney/Bush.

Posted by: Marysdude at March 30, 2006 1:18 PM
Comment #136886

There are 325,000 soldiers in the National Guard. About 130,000 of those are in Iraq. That leaves 195,000 soldiers to help the border patrol stop about 3000 illegals each day from coming over the border. That’s just the Army National Guard, not counting the State Militias, which could be sent to the border by the governors of border states like the governor of Arizona (a Democrat, who I admire greatly for her courage in this situation). You can’t just claim “there aren’t enough soldiers” without any proof. Go to the National Guard website, at least, before just throwing unfouned statements out there and hoping they stick.

Posted by: Duano at March 30, 2006 1:54 PM
Comment #136904

>>before just throwing unfouned statements out there and hoping they stick.

Posted by: Duano at March 30, 2006 01:54 PM

Duano,

What governor in their right mind would send all their Guard off to secure our borders, for an extende period of time, or forever, leaving their state without protections agains natural disasters…I don’t need sourses or numbers to use my common sense…you should try it sometime.

Posted by: Marysdude at March 30, 2006 2:42 PM
Comment #136925

TO ALL:

But to qitqat particularly,

Immigration is a VERY complex issue. Jack is right about that. There are significant elements of BOTH parties who are for tightening the border and some of both parties that are against it. However, there is a great deal more going on than illegals taking advantage of us.
WE HAVE TAKEN EXTREME ADVANTAGE OF MEXICO!!!

1. The Bucareli agreement which was imposed on Mexico follwing the revolution in Mexico (WWI). The agreement prevented Mexico from engaing in any industry in competition with the US. Before and during WWI (even during Mexico’s own strife), Mexico had a thriving airplane (biplane) industry and was selling them to Europe and the US. That industry was illiminated.

2. Abuse of Illegal labor. I have outlined the abuse I have seen, and subsequently researched for deeply. Here is but one form of such abuse again - Home builders across this nation have repeatedly and as a matter of regular practice, systematically called in the INS and sent their predominantly undocumented labor force running rather than pay them for the last phase of their labor in building new neighborhoods all over this country. I have interviewed several Mexicans now who have endured this treatment all across this nation by some of the largest homebuilders in our country. Everyone who has bought a new house in the last couple of decades is likely to be in a position to have unjustly benefitted from the reduced construction cost…that is unless they were charged for it anyway and then the homebuilder robbed the buyer as well.

I’ve heard a great deal about Americans not being willing to do certain jobs. I don’t beleive it. Nonetheless, there is clearly a market for the labor provided by the undocumented workers in our country. I have no problem with that. I also know that those who somehow think they are taking advantage of us are just being strangely greedy. Nobody is even trying to figure out how much our country is benefitting from them, we see only the impossible quantify value of what the undocumented may be gaining from in our country. What hypocrisy. The vile shallowness of my felow Americans in the face of all we have done to keep our neighbors down, sickens me.

Further, I have repeatedly brought to light in my posts the lack of understanding, appreciation and respect for how American law and our constitution works has weakened our great nation. Well, in the past, it has been waves of immigrants who have contributed to the depth and acheivement of AMERICA. The Irish and the Chinese who built the railroads, the Italians, Germans, Czecks and Poles who built towns and contributed to building cities all across our great country, the Viet Namese who re-invigorated the fishing industry along the Gulf and brought their culture and cuisine to our shores to make them a part of America, FRENCH who probably did more for facilitating the very BIRTH of our nation than any other nation, the recent influx of middle easterners who have founded businesses all across the country, Eastern Indians who are arriving in greater numbers to work in our tech industries, etc., etc., etc.,

There is no doubt I have missed some. How could I not, there are so many? …but the point is that our great nation NEEDS immigration. We benefit from it. Now we are making it harder for immigrants to get a foothold here, they are still arriving for economic reasons (and who can blame them) but are less able to contribute to the strength and depth of our country because we are taking advantage of them by not assimilating them. Assimilation has never been easy for any group, but it not be this hard. It is born out of hate and lack of understanding.

I submit that it is the infusion of immigrant bllod and perspectives into our country which generates a revitalized appreciation for what we have. An appreciation and respect for our laws and our constitution, for instance, which those very people calling themselves ‘conservatives’ have lost. Every group which has arrived in this country has provided builders, merchants and businesspeople, lawyers, judges, statesmen, teachers, etc. to our society. Why can we not appreciate this and recognize the LONG term value of immigration?

…And if the issue is legal versus illegal immigration, then why do we have vary-ing quota systems for immigratns at all? Can ANYBODY honestly make the claim that these are good or even just?

RGF

Posted by: RGF at March 30, 2006 4:01 PM
Comment #136932

RGF,

Good post, and it made a lot of sense, but most of those you mentioned who contributed to our country (Chinese, Irish, Africans, etc.), did so in spite of our unwillingness to accept them. Why should the Latinos be any different?

Posted by: Marysdude at March 30, 2006 4:58 PM
Comment #136941

Why are some of you crying about the costs of immigrants to live in the U.S.?

Legal or illegal, they are making money here and they are spending most of it here.

Yes, a woman may enter here to have her child in the U.S. and the Dept of Health and Human Services may incurr $5000.00 of medical bills related to her pregnancy. But in the larger perspective, this particular mommy and child may contribute, say, $15000.00 annually to her state’s economy.

By far and large, this particular group of individuals, Hispanics from Mexico, are the most law abiding, hard working people I have ever seen. We should not allow these people who have come here illegally to be labeled as felons.

Why in the world would the Bush Admin clammor to spend millions, how about A BILLION DOLLARS to construct the wall? Who in the hell is going to build it, anyway?

Immigrants from Mexico are hard working because they know that wages here are better than their hometown in Mexico. Hard working because they are confident in the fact that the U.S. has regulations providing for their safety and health in any job that they may do. Hard working because they want to be just as successful as Americans.

They are law abiding because they are afraid of causing any trouble to expedite their deportation. These people save their money, they buy cars and homes, they try very hard to play by the rules.

And some of you are crying that they are taking jobs away from us and driving wages down. Sob, sob, cry, cry.

How could you possible verbalize this small competition for jobs at burger joints? I don’t know what your priority’s are but, I want the jobs that Bush gave away to India.

Why isn’t any one complaining about the continuing lack of engineers that the U.S. produces. Why don’t we as a society worry less about Juan at the BurgerKing and think about ways that we could make our youngsters ready to compete with the big boys in the world? India, China, and Japan are churning out record numbers of engineers.

What was your complaint again? Oh how small it is compared to the much larger issues surrounding costs to government and job competition.

You republicans here, sit at your desks with your nice computers and DSL internet, with satellite TV playing on your 36” flat screen tv and bitch because somebody else wants what you have gotten so readily because you are a born American.

If I was a pregnant woman, I would risk my life to come here for medical care and the promise of a better life for my child. Wouldn’t any of you?

Posted by: Georgeanna at March 30, 2006 5:31 PM
Comment #136942

Oh wait a minute!

Don’t tell me, George. I got it.

Haliburton wants to build the wall for us.

Posted by: Georgeanna at March 30, 2006 5:38 PM
Comment #136949

///
the homebuilder robbed the buyer as well. Posted by: RGF at March 30, 2006 04:01 PM

You are right sir! The construction business is a joke where I live. The cost of screw-ups probably amount to more than employment cost of immigrants. The illegals are probably the most sober workers that they have, but at least they do not discriminate against alcoholics, and drug users.

U.S. has regulations providing for their safety and health in any job. Posted by: Georgeanna at March 30, 2006 05:31 PM

You are being very optimistic about that, but otherwise right on. No money for social services, but plenty for a wall.

Posted by: Ohrealy at March 30, 2006 6:14 PM
Comment #136950

>>Why in the world would the Bush Admin clammor to spend millions, how about A BILLION DOLLARS to construct the wall? Who in the hell is going to build it, anyway? Oh wait a minute! Don’t tell me, George. I got it. Haliburton wants to build the wall for us.

Posted by: Georgeanna at March 30, 2006 05:38 PM

Georgeanna,

And, on a no-bid contract no doubt…


Posted by: Marysdude at March 30, 2006 6:25 PM
Comment #136952

I know this is off topic, and I appologize, but can anyone think of a more corrupt, ruinous administration?

Posted by: Marysdude at March 30, 2006 6:27 PM
Comment #137035

democrats are so busy extolling their own virtues they get to be belligerent with those who disagree with their point of view. How could people be so stupid as to not see what they - democrats - know is right

Posted by: cw at March 31, 2006 2:24 AM
Comment #137083

Marysdude,

See: Clinton

Posted by: Duano at March 31, 2006 10:29 AM
Comment #137105

Eve
You say that some come here as “come here as political refugees” . You know it really doesn’t matter why they come here, it is the fact only that they come here ILLEGALLY, period. We used to have a place called “Ellis Island”. There people were given health tests, and placed into communities with help that would put these people on the fast track towards citizenship. All the refugies used to learn English, because if they didn’t, they could not go to school, work, shop, do business, buy goods, and go about their daily lives here. It doesn’t matter WHY you come here. It only matters HOW you come here. People that were escapeing their country of origin because of fear of death or political (non-criminal) punishment were given special dispensations to enter this country LEGALLY. The only people that you are going to get here thru illegal means are people who are pron to break the law and feel that they have just reason to do so. Is that really any way to run a society? “Sure you can break the law, BUT you have to have a GOOD reason”? And, is it any wonder that the Republicians do not have a problem with people that break the law’s of this land, and want to put those people on a fast track towards citizenship? What’s a little law breaking between friends, Huh? After all, this IS post 9/11, and our laws aren’t any good any more!!! And, I’m going to let the birth rate thing pass. It really doesn’t matter how many there are, it is that there is one, just one person in this country living outside the law. There is a old saying, “If one person is denied justice, then all people suffer”, and I say, “If you let one person be above the law, then all the people everywhere are lost”. No one is above the law in this country, ESPECIALLY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. If we don’t have laws and don’t honor those laws, then we are lost as a society, already.

Duano
You say that more guard units, more police are needed to enforce the law. Well, we have enough boarder guards already. We have enough laws already. But, unless your willing to enforce those laws, and make the penalties so great for breaking those laws so unthinkable, then you will ALWAYS have people that are willing to break those laws. If there is no penalty, and no law enforcement for breaking the law (because of big business interests and profits), then there will always be people that can break the law with impunity.

And you see “Clinton”, (for a more corrupt white house). We were not in an illgal self-serving war with thousands of our kids dieing for no good reason but to shore up big business. We did not “out” Security Agents for spite. We did not bastardize FEMA so that it was useless for anything but to grant big reconstruction projects that served corporate interests and abandoned the victoms of natural desasters. (A natural disaster that could have been prevented, if funding hadn’t been stopped for the first time in 38 years, on the levies that protected New Orleans). We did not leave people huddled in masses in stadiums promising help that never came. We did not encourage employers to break the law by hireing illegals. We did not spy on people and do it in the name of “working against terrorism”. If we needed to “spy” on Americans we followed that law and got search warrents and had a dang good reason. We did not make it our moral business to spy into peoples bedrooms and make sure that there was only one man and one woman there. And, we had respect for women and what she did with her own body. And, that was the day when Americans elected their president not the Supreme Court. If you are looking at moral standards? Then I’ll take an adulterer over a lying war monger big business protection, treasury robber, any day! In short I’d rather have someone screwing in the white house, than having a white house that is screwing US!

RGF
You say “We have taken advantage of Mexico”. Oh, PLEASE! Mexico has two exports, drugs and illegals. You site how American Companies take advantage of Mexicans for cheap labor. Yes, it’s true. That’s the only reason they are here with impunity. So, that big busness and make more profits at the expense of slave labor. Is that legal, no. Is it fair, no. But are you willing to do anything about it, no. Why do we let big business reep the profits from their ill gotten booty, and we sit here while they rake in the profits with 11 million less jobs that could be filled LEGALLY, by Americans? Your logic is preverse. Yes, waves of immigrants have built this country and made it great. WAVES OF LEGAL IMMIGRANTS. Now, the only thing that is great about the flood of illegal immigrants that is great is the great profits of cheap labor that they provide to big business at our (us Americans) expense. Expense in our lives by decreasing the quality of our lives and expense in our communities by the burden financially presented by sustaining 11 million illegals in our communities. You call for issimilation. We should issimilate those of us that are here by breaking the laws of this land? What utter nonsense. Next you will call for letting murders out of jail, so that we can all adopt one. You will no doubt argue that there is a big deal of difference between being here illegally and being a murderer. Well, if there is a difference - then it’s only by degree,. (both are illegal). You seam to deny that there is a difference between legal immigration and illegal entry into this country. Well, there is a big difference. Limits are fair, legal immigration is a system that has, up until recently, served this country well. A glareing example is a personal one that I can relate. My husband recently had a job offer from Bermuda. When we went there it was necessary for both of us to bring a chest ex-ray. Little subtilties are lost from hordes of illegals crossing our boarders daily, don’t you think? I repeat, limits are fair. Tracking immigrants is necessary. And, providing them with resources to become Americans, legal Americans, is both fair and just. And, until we as Democrats can zip up our “bleeding hearts” and insist that both Democrats and Republicans live by the “RULE OF LAW” in this country……We really (B>don’t have a united platform!.

Marysdude
Some people in this country will never accept others who are “different”. Have brown skin, or red skin or even white skin. Bigotry is bigotry and it know no skin color. But, what gets me is why do “they” not accept us? In days of old it used to be a badge of courage and honor to be an “American”. You wanted to dress like one, live like one, talk the language and send your kids to “American schools”, to get a real “American education”, and a real chance at life. Now, American business has catered to their illegal work force to the extent that you can’t even buy anything in this country that it doesn’t come in at least 4 different languages. We used to insist on assimulation, if you wanted to live here you had to do business here. My ancesors gave up french, german and galic to speak english. Your ancesors probably gave up their mother tongue as well. They did that because they wanted to “become American”. The current breed of illegals do not want to assimulate. They live in Spanish, work in Spanish, go to school in Spanish, get health care in Spanish, and even vote in Spanish. The real question here isn’t - “Why don’t the “bad Americans” accept them”? But rather, “Why don’t they want to become Americans”?

Georgeanna
First off, a wall only profits the large contractors (like maybe Halliburton?). And, a “wall” will do nothing to protect Americans. Do you remember the 30 some illegals that were detained on one airplain? They had tickets, and they had a job to go to. A wall is just another “feel good” security rip-off, that will make us feel “safe” while not helping us at all, but will profit big business….yet AGAIN (by this Administration-why is it that every answer to every problem always profits big business, huh?). You say that they are hard working and play by the rules. That’s funny. It’s like saying that after you break the law it’s ok because you have been a benifit to society. Didn’t work for that lady bank robber who in the 60’s or 70’s robbed a bank where a guard was killed and after 35 years was caught or turned herself in. She still committed a crime, and was still punished, as I remember. Even though she’d lived an good life for 35 years and was a credit to her family and community. You seem to think that illegals do jobs at burger king and don’t do any jobs that are of value. Last year there were 35 illegals picked up at 1 Wal-Mart. Is this a job that you don’t want? You how about your kid going to college that can’t get that colledge loan any more because of Bush’s educational cuts? They do construction work, hotel cleaning and maintenance, farm work that used to be done by the family farmer, collect money at the local quick stop and hundreds of more jobs that you probably don’t even know about or care about. (Did you know that there is talk about training illegals as truckers and that they can drive truck for much less than what the companies are paying now, which used to be a decent wage but now with gas prices and other cuts truckers are just squeeking by as it is?) I work as a manager for a storage facility at $9.75 per hour. Why doesn’t my company hire some illegal to to the work for half that? The only reason is because I’m many hundreds of miles from the “boarder” and my company is reputable and doesn’t screw it’s employees or break the law. (A real rare breed these days). And, you say “they spend their money here, buy cars and pay their bills etc”. What planet are you on, anyway? Employers hire illegals because they don’t have to deduct INCOME TAX. They don’t have to contribute to Social Security. And, they don’t have to deduct L and I. So that when a laborer gets hurt on the job, who cares, who knows? They can’t be sued and they don’t have to contribute to their injuries. A cheap labor force is paid by cash and is disposable. You don’t have to bother with Labor Unions, and you don’t have to pay a “Fair Wage”.

And, I don’t know how old you are, but our President says that Social Security is “broke”. Well, if it is? Then if you ever plan on retirement, then why don’t you insist that those 11 million jobs be occupied by legal Americans? Americans that pay income tax, have a social security number, and are really contributing to this country. Or, do you prepose that illegals should get social security when they retire too? And, even though they don’t have jobs that require a S.S. contribution, and even though they have never had a job where they paid income tax? A SLAVE LABOR FORCE HAS NEVER BENIFITED THIS COUNTRY, OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY, that’s why Lincoln freed the slaves, and England followed suit.

To All
I repeat, the only solution to this is to enfore the laws that we already have, and make the penelties for breaking the laws even harsher. If illegals were to face hard time in jail only to be deported to their own country of origin, (with more jail time there); then, illegals would leave in droves. You couldn’t shake a stick at them fast enough. If anyone, private or business, would face a monsterous fine per day ($1,000.00 per person) for hireing illegals, they would stop faster than you could say, “President Bush is a big fat Lier”!
This is a real no brainer,,,,,for anyone who really really wants to solve the problem. And, it’s a much bigger problem for our country than a few poor people trying to create “a better life for themselves”. They are doing that at OUR expense. YOURS AND MINE! ..and our childrens. Think on that.

Posted by: PlayNice at March 31, 2006 12:03 PM
Comment #137604

Duano,

Your pants are down again, I wish you’d quit exposing youself. ‘See Clinton’, for corruption and ruinous behavior to America? Have you been asleep? Please read up on all the things that became better under the Clinton administration, i.e., the deficit, the national debt, the standing in the world, the economy, the unemployment, the…the…the…

Clinton dropped his pants, got impeached and still accomplished much. You drop yours and step on your own tongue…

Posted by: Marysdude at April 3, 2006 11:11 AM
Comment #209073

surprising to me that people argue over what they know nothing about.Tancreado, a nut case, if we stop illegal imigration,’ we wont afford to eat produce, we won’t be able to eat in a resturant,why should intelegent people argue about what they dont know,,,,If they can’t work here they wont stay here, it isn’t the rich giving us trouble, it’s those looking for jobs, and our government does nothing about it,,,All of the autos made in mexico for example the jobs suck of low wages, employed poverity. in some cases 2 jobs and still in poverity,,,,,,,,,,,,
I would do the same in their shoes, and you would be right beside me,,,,,,,,But if we got here and couldn’t work we would stay home wouldn’t we, w3 don’t even need a fence, or wall———-its their ability to assimulate once here tht attracks them

Posted by: roy jones at February 20, 2007 2:19 PM
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