Democrats & Liberals: Archives

I just finished writing something similar on price on the other side.

Right now we handle traffic like the Soviet Union handled bread. We make people stand (or sit) in line. Everybody can use the resource when he wants (or has the time to wait) so everyone abuses it. The typical tragedy of the common. An improvement we can make with technology available today is to charge different rates at peak times and slow times.

Road Pricingis a great way to solve this problem. The alternatives are more wasted time, more pollution, urban sprawl and general discomfort. Are those viable alternatives? We have a solution. We just need the will to use it.

Could this help reduce the overall taxes everyone pays for inner city roads and public parking areas? Might have potential.

Something different - but similar… my parents town started charging per bag of trash. Recycling is free, but it costs $1.25 per bag you throw away. 1 - you encourage the behaviors that benefit the community as a whole, 2 - you turn these expensed into a ‘per use’ fee rather than making everyone pay regardless.

I guess it all comes down to changing the way things are paid for - we pay for them now, but is what we have the best solution?

As far as the homeless issue goes… i would never want to overcharge where it limits access only to those with money. However, I think we’d need to look into their issues with this anf find good solutions for them specifically, and not limit good solutions.

It’s a great idea! Here in nyc we have tolls at bridges and tunnels, but should probably add tolls for heavily congested areas. Our mayor is a total jerk, but at least he uses mass transit.

No you miss the point…not everyone who NEEDS to drive into a city can afford to pay. No wonder the right wingers think all liberals are “tax and spend” types. Just what the working man (or woman) needs is more expense to do their job. Like it or not this is a car culture and people depend on their cars. Public trans. is many places is not trustworthy or reliable. NO Wait, maybe this is a good idea. Lets put toll machines at social Security offices, and Doctor’s offices cause after all most of those places are crowded and this way I won’t need to wait so long to see my doc. All those unemployed and sick people should just stay home anyway. Or how about charging an entrance fee at gas stations. the price of gas does not keep people away and this way those who drive, say a station wagon, might just stay home so I can get MY gas in order to get to starbucks…..

Hey. As a Swede I have to say that in Stockholm only rich people drive instead of using public transport. As the rapid decline in traffic shows there are valid alternatives.

Here in Pittsburgh it’s a status symbol to drive to work, people spend a third of there wages to drive there auto to work. The transit authority gets goverment help every contract now. the congestion is allready overbearing, this happening in a city where the work force has shrunk every year since the seventies. I would be very suprised if this was ever attempted here or any other American city.

Why is everyone all of a sudden for new taxes? First Jack over on the Red side. Now Vihar over here.
Until our elected employees in ALL levels of government can get their collective acts togeather and prove that they are responsible enough to manage OUR money in a responsible manner, I’m against any kind of new tax.
And I’m be against this one regardless. Chargeing someone to drive on roads that they already paid for in tag taxes and drivers licenses taxes is down right theivery.

Ron -

What about the idea of collected fees for driving in congested areas as the sole way of paying for maintenance, building and repair of roads in that area?

Remove the tax in favor of more of a user’s fee…???

My God,Mr. Brown,we agree. How about we also charge people on foot too. That way we can keep the homeless riff raff out of downtown as well as poor people who still have cars.

Good article, Vihar. Singapore has a similar pay-per-use system for streets in the Central Business District. It works well because it’s a small area well served by buses and the light rail system.

There are several US cities considering this kind of thing — I remember reading about Los Angeles in particular. The problem, as you point out, is the lack of convenient public transportation.

Other than a few years of Sim City, I have no planning experience, but I’d think the public transportation comes first. Otherwise you’re forcing people to pay the toll because there’s no other option.

How in the world do they enforce such a law? How is the charge collected?

The other thing not being mentioned here is how about big cities that already have toll roads leading into the city as main arteries into the city. Now you’ve already traveled say 20 miles from home to work in the city that has congestion and paid a toll to get there on the main artery in. So now you should pay another toll just to be in the place you have to work. Sounds like what someone else said robbery.

Not a fan of this idea myself… Mainly because where I live there really is no alternative to driving that is viable. I live in Indianapolis, IN and public transportation here is almost non-existant. Indy is the 12th largest city in the nation and is growing very rapidly. The trouble is that almost all of the growth is outside of the downtown area (urban sprawl). Out in the suburbs (where much of the population lives) there is absolutly no public transportation available. You simply have to have a car and drive where you need to go. We have a bus system that runs mainly in the downtown area but outside of that there is nothing (no trains, subway, etc…). We have a very good interstate system that, with the exception of a few “trouble” areas is not too congested. But it is getting worse every day.

Unless Indy can figure out an alternative for those of us who don’t live and work in the downtown area, we have no choice other than to drive.

I’d imagine that Indy is not the only town like this (particularly in the middle of the country where urban sprawl is about the only form of growth). I could probably afford to pay tolls and would most likely not change my lifestyle all that much in this type of system. However, for the less fortunate folks out there that are having a hard enough time paying for the gas to get to work, plans like this might just put them under.

What about the idea of collected fees for driving in congested areas as the sole way of paying for maintenance, building and repair of roads in that area?

Remove the tax in favor of more of a user’s fee…???

Posted by: tony at January 11, 2006 08:44 PM

Are you willing to have a toll booth at the end of your driveway?
The only way to do that is to make every road a toll road. You’d need $100 in quarters just to go anywhere.
Users fees? Why don’t you call them what they are? TAXES.

In reading through the comments here I keep seeing referances to other countries that tax their citizens to drive in certian areas. And the drift I get is they do it so we should too.
OK, Other countries don’t let their women vote, so we shouldn’t. Other countries don’t the freedoms we have, so we shouldn’t have them. Other countries oppress folks of miniority races or sects, so we should to.
Fact is I could give less of a shit what other countries do. That doesn’t automaticly make it what we need to do, or make it right.

I followed this story on Radio Sweden and there are a few facts that need to be emphasized:

1. This project is a TEMPORARY EXPERIMENT. The charge ends in seven months and Swedes (presumably Stockholm County) get to vote on it in the fall. This follows the typical Swedish approach to government issues of “be careful, go slow, give everyone a chance to think it through and voice a well-thought opinion.”

2. The project was undertaken not so much for congestion issues as to reduce pollution. Now, Stockholm isn’t polluted when you compare it to many other European cities, but I would venture to guess that the average Swede sees it as very polluted compared to just about any other city in Sweden. Also, I believe hybrid cars are exempt from the fee.

3. For those who say some people can’t afford this, perhaps. But remember that Sweden does a much better job of decreasing the level of income inequality among the nation at large that just about any other country you can name.

4. Stockholm has GREAT public transport, and the fee charged differs depending on the time of day dropping all the way to zero at times, so they’ve already calculated into the fee to account for the availability of transit at different times of the day.

Ron -

You’re missing the point. We all pay for the roads - even those those don’t use them. So, if you ride mass transit or walk to work, then you pay for others who drive. So, this basically moves the fees for driving in heavily congested areas solely to those who want to drive there.

So, no - you would not have a toll both at the end of your driveway.

Why do you feel the need to take any argument to the extreme so that you can then dismiss it? I don’t understand the reason to be so hostile with your arguments. Of course there are ups sides and down sides to these suggestions, but to dismiss them out of hat, just because they are unfamiliar is really missing the point of a blog - to discuss and explore.

If you feel that everything here is BS - or pointless, then I’d question you reasons for posting. Is it just to flame people? Obviously, you can do whatever you want, just curious…

Out in the suburbs (where much of the population lives) there is absolutly no public transportation available. You simply have to have a car and drive where you need to go. We have a bus system that runs mainly in the downtown area but outside of that there is nothing (no trains, subway, etc…). We have a very good interstate system that, with the exception of a few ‘trouble’ areas is not too congested. But it is getting worse every day.

Sounds like Indy needs to stop building freeways are start building public transit NOW. Because I guarantee, it will continue to get worse every day, and will not get better even when a new road opens up.

As an urban area, new roads just induce expenentially more driving, and do nothing to solve the congestion problem you have.

As long as its not yet another federal mandate and people who do not contribute to the problem aren’t also punished, who cares.
If a city wants to do it, let them do it. It would then be up to the people to vote on whether they agree with the punishment or not.

tony
Sorry you think I’m being hostile. I’m not.
I’m not missing the point. The point is that we already pay taxes for roads. These taxes come in the form of Auto tag tax, Drivers license tax, Gas tax, and in some places Sales tax.
Since you already have to pay the drivers license tax, auto tag tax, and gas tax inorder to drive, another tax will only add to the already too high price of driving.
If the tax were to be a subsitute for the other taxes then in order to pay for roads other than the ones in congested areas, then every road would have to be turned into a toll road.
Since yaall cliam to be the champions of the poor. Why do yaall want to make it to where they cann’t afford to drive downtown?
Who would collect the tax? And who would get the money from it?

I’m not buying the whole ‘this will be terrible for the poor’ argument. We don’t mandate crucial support for the poor like child care or health care, home heat or after school programs. Most poor people need these items. Not all poor people drive a car… in fact, driving a car is a bit of a luxury. Compared to the costs of owning and operating a car, the people effected by these fees would be low income, but would they be poor? Or are you suggesting that we make driving a car a right and giving everyone in need a free car with free gas…??? This is not a poverty issue.

I see these fees as a suggested way to limit traffic congestion and air pollution. If you look at the overall health impact of living in these areas, it might make sense to outright ban certain types of driving… but that would not fly, so at least this is a way of financially motivating the behavior the is best for all people in these effected areas.

Having a fee based system could cover the expenses related to driving in these areas and limit overall taxes to people who do not drive into these areas, but drive elsewhere. (Presto! No toll booth needed at your driveway.)

I’m having a very hard time believing that anyone would want to put another tax on themselves. Of course maybe yaall are thinking that the rich are the only ones who’ll be stuck paying it because you won’t drive downtown.
When yaall quit driving downtown to avoid the tax they’ll just extend it to the whole town. Then the county. Then the state. Presto, toll booths at the end of your driveway.