Democrats & Liberals Archives

Religious Farce or Tragedy?

I am not a Christian; I am Jewish. In the past, the one thing I loved most about the Christmas season was the wonderful message about peace and goodwill you found almost everywhere. It made me feel good, accepted and warm. Today, the self-proclaimed devout, the religious right extremists, don’t talk of peace and goodwill, but spout messages of war and hatred. They have taken their war against the “war on Christmas” to such ridiculous lengths that they are criticizing President Bush’s Christmas greeting cards. What a farce!

Years back, during Christmas time, I saw everywhere this beautiful message:

"Peace on earth, goodwill toward all men."

Where is this message now? Do we not want peace? Are we no longer concerned with goodwill toward other people on earth? Evidently not. Things have gotten so bad that the holy individuals of the religious right are complaining about the Christmas card that President Bush sent out to over a million individuals.

What are they upset about? Bush wished his friends and supporters a happy "holiday season." Can anything be worse than this? Evidently, not, according to these religious extremists:

William A. Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights: "This clearly demonstrates that the Bush administration has suffered a loss of will and that they have capitulated to the worst elements in our culture."

Joseph Farah, editor of the conservative Web site WorldNetDaily.com:
Bush "claims to be a born-again, evangelical Christian. But he sure doesn't act like one. I threw out my White House card as soon as I got it."

Tim Wildmon, president of the American Family Association:
"It bothers me that the White House card leaves off any reference to Jesus, while we've got Ramadan celebrations in the White House. What's going on there?"

A farce? Maybe it's a tragedy.

No more peace, harmony, goodwill, understanding, love. War and hate are the order of the day. And all this was imposed on our society by those who claim to be the most religious in the country. These religious extremists want to get rid of science, are eager to administer capital punishment, want to impose their religious values upon everybody else, and now they are waging a war on people and companies who talk of the "holiday season" rather than say "merry Christmas."

The president, the retailers and others want to be inclusive, so they talk of the "holiday season." The religious extremists don't believe in inclusivity. They want to be exclusive and they want to dominate.
The message today seems to be:

"War on earth, hatred to infidels."

We're faced with not a farce but a tragedy.

How I long to get back to the days when we heard the original Christian message:

"Peace on earth, goodwill toward all men."
Posted by Paul Siegel at December 8, 2005 3:59 PM
Comments
Comment #100269

Paul

The better translation is “peace on earth to men of good will.” Your point remains, but it makes some difference and none of the translations include ALL.

Posted by: Jack at December 8, 2005 4:17 PM
Comment #100278

Paul-

There’s still plenty of goodwill out there; it’s just not in D.C.

Happy holidays, season’s greetings, and here’s to peace on earth “for all men and women of good will”.

Peace

Posted by: George in SC at December 8, 2005 4:42 PM
Comment #100279

Paul,
You know, the most idiotic thing about them raving over the “happy holidays” is the fact that the etymology of the word holiday comes from HOLY DAY. These people are ranting and raving about anyone who has the nerve to wish them a happy holy day!
But no, it just doesn’t speak to their exclusivity — so all retailers should be forced to put the name of Christ in their stores, and be dammed to their other customers who aren’t Christians.
What the religious right has been doing is hateful, petty, smallminded, mean and intolerant — quite the antithesis of what Jesus preached. They should be ashamed of themselves, for not loving their neighbors as they do themselves.

Happy Holidays, Paul!

Posted by: Adrienne at December 8, 2005 4:47 PM
Comment #100286

It never occurred to me to say Merry Christmas to a stranger. If they weren’t Christian, it would be rude. It’s common sense manners.

Also, it’s a right wing created issue to distract other right wingers with a story about how liberals have a secret cabal that wants to take away Christmas from more pressing issues, like how badly the war is going in Iraq.

Posted by: Max at December 8, 2005 5:05 PM
Comment #100288

Paul,

Have you seen the Happy Chrismahanaquanzika commercial?
It’s hilarious.

The religious right aka. Cristian Extremist Puritan fundamentalists are going on a media rampage. They are at war(Media attention). They are being attacked by all(Paranoia).They must fight those who oppose them(Attack Wal Mart?). A culture clash for the ages, and just in time for Christmas.
Can you imagine the frightening images on the cards from these people?
I tend to shy away from hanging aborted fetus or hellfire and damnation cards on my mantle, they tend to depress my guests and my children.
I guess the rest of us boring, non-combative, sissy Christians toiling away donating food baskets and toys are just not that Christian.
I feel guilty making decorations and cooking for a senior citizens Christmas dinner in my neighborhood, while our brothers and sisters to the right are battling their imaginary war against Wal Mart.
I’ve looked for cards with “Merry Christmas, burn in Hell you Atheist Bastard” at every Hallmark store in my little city, but I’ve yet to find one.
I’ll keep looking. Fight the good fight my far right brethren(Kooks).
Happy Holidays.

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at December 8, 2005 5:10 PM
Comment #100290

And if the cards had mentioned God, these guys would be happy and left would be the ones making it an issue.
Its a war alright, between two sides who refuse to acknowledge the others right to do as they please.

Merry Xmas to all and to all May God bless your Christmas. There, that should piss both sides off.

Posted by: Tim Huff at December 8, 2005 5:12 PM
Comment #100291

Don’t think that all Christians are acting this way. I am more than fine with President Bush’s card, I wish all presidents would do it like this. I am a very conservative republican and a devout Catholic, but I still think Bush should respect all religions this way. However, I do draw the line at calling Christmas Trees “Holiday Trees.” I can’t think of any other holiday where people put lights and bulbs on small trees, so there is no reason to change the name. I wouldn’t expect people to call Menorahs “Holiday Candelabrums” so I think people should leave “Holiday Trees” out of their vocabulary. I agree with what you write, but don’t think all right wing Christians act this childish, no matter how conservative they are.

Posted by: Jack M at December 8, 2005 5:13 PM
Comment #100293

Jack M,

Holiday trees are Pagan, not Christian. I believe that means everybody can get into their piney-freshness.

Posted by: Adrienne at December 8, 2005 5:23 PM
Comment #100294

I say Merry CHristmas to non CHristians all the time and they take it in the spirit given, and smile and return the greeting, we are celebrating the holiday and not the religin I feel. It has always been about family and “good will to men”. Of course I’m not a fundamentalist politically, but I’m more of a thoughtfull christian that tries to live by CHrists example. CHristianity today has zero resemblance to what Christ started, and besides he was born a picies :)…

Posted by: Todd at December 8, 2005 5:25 PM
Comment #100296

Oh, and Happy holidays Paul, Peace be upon you.

Posted by: Todd at December 8, 2005 5:26 PM
Comment #100299

There is some history here that your post neglects.

For many years Christmas was publicly, openly, and harmlessly celebrated. Kids in public schools sang Christmas Carols. Christmas trees adorned public spaces. Businesses acknowledged this country’s majority culture and recognized 95% of their shoppers were shopping for Christmas by, for instance, wishing them a Merry Christmas.

Then, starting in the 1950s or so, the songs, the expressions, and the religious meaning of Christmas became secularized and then suppressed altogether. The roosters were running the henhouse and out of a surfeit of politeness, gallantry, some lawsuits, and a bit of intimidation, Christians acquiesced and became ashamed, in their own country where they are the overwhelming majority, of publicy acknowleding their heritage and culture.

The anti-Christmas expressions of years past have created understandable resentment on the part of America’s Christian majority. In a normal country a majority is not altogether nativist and domineering in its behavior; it has a code of gallantry and hospitality. But this does not mean it must be more timid than its minorities, more reticient in expression, and, topsy turvy, turned into the handmaiden of elments that express contempt for it and want to rearrange it. Only a psychopath would be offended by the expression “Merry Christmas,” even if he were not Christian. It’s no more offensive than if someone were to wish me a happy Ramadan in Iraq or acknowledge some other widespread cultural or religious practice anywhere elsee. To be offended and demand acomodation on these matters is no way for newcomers and religious minorities to behave. We’re urged to be tolerant, but it’s a two way street, and the minority must be doubly tolerant of majority expression because that is how a normal society runs: the majority gets to influence and control the dominant culture.

Just as the religious majority should not oppress its religious minorities, religious minorities should not needlessly antagonize the majority, but this is exactly what’s happened in the US under the triparite assault of massive immigration, marxist multiculturalism, and unchecked materialism. It’s completely unnatural and we’re now seeing a backlash.

One wouldn’t move to India and bitch about Hindu holidays and Hindu cultural practices if one were sane and if one were decent. But in America, apparently, because we have a secular government, we’re increasingly being cajoled into having a secular culture. And when those elements who’ve been embattled, who’ve been compared to Nazis, whose history has been condemned, whose values are labeled “hateful,” whose religion is mocked in film or treated as something to be ashamed of react, they’re being blamed … The only thing remarkable here has been the patience of Christians in dealing with this kind of shabby treatment.

Posted by: Roach at December 8, 2005 5:55 PM
Comment #100304

The Religous Right seem much more concerned about keeping Christ in a Christmas card than keeping Christ in such things as:
American foreign policy
War Planning
Capital Punishment laws
Policy on torture
Our budget
I could go on and on. My point is the Religious Right have become such a hypocritical joke I don’t understand why anyone takes them seriously anymore. For a true Christian perspective on current political issues I would recommend a book called “God’s Politics” by Jim Wallis.

Posted by: J.D. at December 8, 2005 6:05 PM
Comment #100305

Roach…

AMEN! My sentiments exactly!

So to all of you here…

Merry Christmas! Happy Holidays!

To all of you Christians here, may God bless you.

To all of you Jews here, may God bless you.

To all of you Muslims here, may Allah be merciful to you.

To all of you of other religions here, may the one you worship bless you.

To all of the atheists here, may you find peace, love and happiness in your life at this time of the year.

I wish you all here nothing but the best…now and in the coming year.

Posted by: Jim T at December 8, 2005 6:19 PM
Comment #100311

JD, well said.

Roach:
“Then, starting in the 1950s or so, the songs, the expressions, and the religious meaning of Christmas became secularized and then suppressed altogether.”

That’s bunk. There is no suppression of religion in this country at all. American’s are totally free to worship their faiths from one end of it to the other.
No one can “secularize away” another person’s meaning of Christmas from them. The holiday season, however, doesn’t belong to Christians exclusively, no matter how some in their small minded and arrogant way are attempting to strip it of all peace and goodwill in order to insist that it is theirs alone.
Holiday greetings, Santa Claus and retail sales don’t have jack-sh*t to do with the message that Jesus Christ gave his followers. People who insist that it does seem unable to comprehend that they are missing the forest for their Pagan-derived heavily decorated, trees.

Posted by: Adrienne at December 8, 2005 6:41 PM
Comment #100313

Our founding fathers and every president except Kennedy were Freemasons, so we should be celebrating the sacred square and compass, and whatever that G is supposed to represent, geometry, I think, while wearing our little aprons and maybe a funny hat. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry, a nonjudgemental reference on the subject. Why aren’t we celebrating any Buddhist holidays?
Will Chrismukkah move from the O.C. to wider acceptance in the nonfictional world?

Merry Xmas to all and to all a good night.

Posted by: ray at December 8, 2005 6:42 PM
Comment #100314

Forget the card it has nothing to do with your eternal life after death. Take close look at Jesus Christ we (christians) think He is your messiah.Find out.

Posted by: mima at December 8, 2005 6:45 PM
Comment #100318

If you are jewsih then remember you dont know whta christmas is about. Didnt they help crucify Jesus?

Posted by: Jesus at December 8, 2005 6:56 PM
Comment #100327

Roach,
you said

One wouldn’t move to India and bitch about Hindu holidays and Hindu cultural practices if one were sane and if one were decent

Who do you think is “moving in?” Are you talking about immigrants? The largest proportion of immigrants are Mexican or latin American, who tend to be strongly Christian. Or do you think that natural-born atheists are not as American as you?

Posted by: Brian Poole at December 8, 2005 7:39 PM
Comment #100334

Lots of nonchristians are moving in from India, from China, from Africa, from the Middle East. Their presence and the disunity they bring have fueled multiculturalism. That said, you’re correct, homegrown atheists and certain spokesmen for religious minorities, mostly Jewish, make up the bulk of the opponents of public displays, acknowledgmenet, and celebrations of Christianity.

This disproves nothing. There is a mainstream culture, and there are subcultures that are very different from that mainstream, with different practices, beliefs, traditions, values, symbols, etc. They can, as I said, be accomodated and integrated, but it creates unnecessary and unjust conflict for the majority to bend over backwards to make them feel like they’re not, in fact, the minority.

Posted by: Roach at December 8, 2005 7:50 PM
Comment #100337

“Jesus” wrote:

If you are jewsih then remember you dont know whta christmas is about. Didnt they help crucify Jesus?

I do so very much hope that was written as joke (albeit an extremely poor attempt at one). If not, that is the most inaccurate, offensive, un-Christian statement I have read on Watchblog to this point (and that’s saying something). Read your history. The “Jews” did nothing of the sort — it would be against their law. The Romans killed Jesus (albeit possibly aided by some members of the Jewish priestly caste at the time). But the Jewish people would undoubtedly have been horrified if they’d known about it.

Please, stop propogating a myth that has created so much misunderstanding and hatred throughout history.

Posted by: Steve Westby at December 8, 2005 7:53 PM
Comment #100343

I say “Festivus for the Rest of Us!!”

Posted by: Bill at December 8, 2005 8:26 PM
Comment #100344

Roach,
So your basically saying that it’s unfair and a ridiculous burden to treat people who don’t beleive the same as you with respect? I know you’ve in the past advocated taking children away from muslim immigrants to “integrate” them, so coming from you that’s not hard to believe. What unnecessary and unjust conflict have you had to endure?

Posted by: Brian Poole at December 8, 2005 8:29 PM
Comment #100345

All of this is very interesting to one who has studied all of this from a number of different angles. First of all, Jesus was not born at midwinter. Remember the newborn lambs in the field? This indicates early spring (I’ve read march as more likely). Early Romanized christianity took midwinter as a try to steal a major Roman Pagan holiday, with the added advantage that midwinter was a major holiday for most of the different pagun cults in the empire. So all of this arguement is about a stolen holiday.

Posted by: Richard Goldsbery at December 8, 2005 8:29 PM
Comment #100346

Your right Brian; integration is a bad idea. Look at how well the alternative has worked in France.

Posted by: Roach at December 8, 2005 8:30 PM
Comment #100349

Roach,
I prefer synthesis to assimilation.
Half of the rioters in France weren’t even muslim, and people who were actually there say that the problem was racism, not excessive tolerance.

Anyway, that’s a distraction. What cultural insults have you had to endure as a result of these subcultured hordes?

Posted by: Brian Poole at December 8, 2005 8:43 PM
Comment #100350

mima,

“Forget the card it has nothing to do with your eternal life after death. Take close look at Jesus Christ we (christians) think He is your messiah.Find out.”

I think too many of you (christians) confuse the man for the message. Knowing him is insignificant relative to leading a good (‘christian’) life.
Neither Jesus nor God care about much else.

Jesus,

“Didnt they help crucify Jesus?”

If you believe the bible, then I suppose it does say something about a number of jews electing to free a thief rather than Jesus…(Barabbas, I think)…this isn’t exactly akin to helping crucify him (though I suppose it might be debatable - most everything is).

However, you’re missing 2 key points:
1. I feel certain that Jesus would have forgiven them, afterall, he *is* Jesus, right?
2. Somehow, as blatantly obvious as it is, many christians seem to continually forget that JESUS WAS A JEW!

I’m no expert on the subject, you may wish to check for yourself… but his people were Jewish, his friends were Jewish, and most importantly, his parents were Jewish (or at least his mother, if you believe the story).

Considering the Jewish lineage gets to claim your ‘messiah’ as one of their own, by blood, it’s almost enough to make me wish *i* were Jewish.

Hearing such an ignorant statement as your own, all I can say is,

“If you are jewsih then remember you dont know whta christmas is about.”

I doubt that anyone could have such a poor grasp on ‘whta christmas is about’ as you, yourself do.

Posted by: Diogenes at December 8, 2005 8:43 PM
Comment #100351

Hey Paul do you live in ME your name seems familair. Anyway I agree with you and JD, it should be the season for working towards Peace on earth and Goodwill towards all… It is disheartening for some to be spending all their energies focusing on what is wrong with store advertisements and not on all the hatred towards others being promoted in the world right now, that is what concerns me, not what words people use to express their view of the Christmas holiday! Merry Christmas and Happy Hanakkuh!(hope it’s spelled correctly}

Posted by: jonitodd at December 8, 2005 8:51 PM
Comment #100354

Paul et All,
It would seem to me that the so called Chritain Right who is now complaining about how Christmas is being exploited over “The birth of Jesus” might want to go back to the 80’s and relive the moment when these same christain right wings fought society to get people to believe that Christmas was a celebration of Jesus’s brith.

The real history of Christmas is one that celebrates the Light and Birth found in the darkness of Winter and was well established long before Jesus even walked upon the Earth. However, since this fact of life doesn’t fit into the right wing argument to rewrite history and take away my right to know the truth than I should show no mercy to them when most Americans reject their claim of being attacked.

Besides does not Happy Holidays take into consideration that the saying covers all holidays during this month? Or have some in our society become so narrowed minded that only the day they get presents matters? Ever wonder what would hapen if Santa never delivered a single present on Christmas? Would the Right go so far as to claim that no one needs to shop for presents for their family and friends?

So rejoice in the fact that not all Humans are dumb enough to blindly believe in the leaders words and that the future of Mankind rests on our ability to live within reality of the truth.

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at December 8, 2005 8:55 PM
Comment #100355
Then, starting in the 1950s or so, the songs, the expressions, and the religious meaning of Christmas became secularized and then suppressed altogether.

That’s not true. Read a little history about Christmas in America.

  • The Puritans considered Christmas un-Christian, and hoped to keep it out of America.
  • People have bemoaned the secularization of Christmas much longer than the 1950s - it happened in the 1930s and even in the 1820s!
  • As early as 1906, the Committee on Elementary Schools in New York City urged that Christmas hymns be banned from the classroom, after a boycott by more than 20,000 Jewish students.

The history of Christmas in America is much more complicated that you seem to want to believe.

Just as the religious majority should not oppress its religious minorities, religious minorities should not needlessly antagonize the majority…

What on earth does that mean? Asking for their own holidays to be recognized is needlessly antagonizing the majority? Christians like Bush choosing to be considerate needlessly antagonizes Christians who choose not to be considerate?

In asking to be treated with respect, minorities are not trampling on your rights at all.

One wouldn’t move to India and bitch about Hindu holidays and Hindu cultural practices if one were sane and if one were decent.

India does not have an official religion, and it has the third largest Muslim population in the world. So, your comparison is inapt. Unless, of course, you meant to imply (incorrectly) that it was a theocracy and that the U.S. would do better to emulate theocratic nations.

I’ll stick to respecting my fellow Americans by not complaining about using “Happy Holidays” to represent a season in which even the most ardent Christians have at least two holidays to celebrate.

Posted by: LawnBoy at December 8, 2005 8:59 PM
Comment #100357

PAUL Seigel,

Hmm “..capitulated to the worst elements in our culture”. You know what’s that code for and it ain’t the Rastafarians. That’s also a racist quote, real catholic huh? It says how dare the Jews share in this, this is ours. Goodwill turns to greed-will, quite Christian as this is what passes for Christianity now. It’s the backlash of the morally bankrupt.

They are the same ones who railed against anyone who had a disagreement with the demonization of jews in the Passion of the Christ or found it offensive. What a bunch of pricks. as if without Judaism there would actually be a Christianity or for that matter an Islam. Abraham was the genesis of all three religions essentially.

They’ve railed against multi-culturalism as well even when Pope John Paul II himself embraced various other religions and cultures and didn’t hold them in lower regards.

American Christianity is a sickening entity especially with the catholic league’s ilk floating around. How does one see such greed and contempt as Godly? they just assume they are just going to the great rainbow in the sky regardless how they act. That’s the psychological fault of a religion that claims salvation based upon faith and not upon actions.

This year I think I’ll go for a nice Norse Yuletide and let these Christian a**-holes have their misguided holiday. Christianity today is just growing back into the hate group from wence they came and I don’t want to join.

I heard O’Reilly one after noon railing against the term ‘holiday’with Neil Cavuto. I think America’s had enough of this holiday if this is the squeeky wheel horsecrap it breeds. Hatred towards people of other faiths and white hoods on the Madonna, then forget it.

Gee I wonder why Christianity is dying with exception to where people are looking to find a common enemy to exault themselves above. Anywhere so remote and white where a lie just sticks.

Catholicism is dying anyway, maybe these are just the throes.

Posted by: Novenge at December 8, 2005 8:59 PM
Comment #100361

Who’s up for pagan Saturnalia?

Posted by: Novenge at December 8, 2005 9:11 PM
Comment #100364

“Christianity today is just growing back into the hate group from wence they came and I don’t want to join.”

“Gee I wonder why Christianity is dying”

I think I agree with what you’re saying, Novenge, at least partly. It’s hard to tell with your post so interlaced with hostility. Tone it down a bit? Not all Christians are as you say; in fact, I’d bet that *most* aren’t, but who knows. More importantly, who cares.

This whole ‘war on the war on Christmas’ is a political distraction tactic, and you’re legitimizing it. Every time they want to pass another covert tax break (or something as equally devious), they declare a war on something (and another tax break *is* on the way).


Posted by: Diogenes at December 8, 2005 9:29 PM
Comment #100369

Diogenes,

Be vewy vewy quiet I’m hunting a fight with a fundamentawist.

This was after all an anti-semetic remark by the Catholic league. they are the ones who rail against jews in Hollywood and Jews disliking the portrayal of them in The Passion of the Christ. Besides Kwanzaa’s cheaper and Yuletide just has a more pleasant ring to it.

Christianity has always had an edge of hate to it anyway. From it’s transposition of it by Constantine to the modern day it has had it’s fair share of real demons. In lieu of what we know scientifically today, it’s perfectly irrelevant but it is now just a shallow tradition that we all try to defend out of something that we cling to out of our childhood.

WE need a new holiday that’s free of these dolts and dickheads because this is only just the start. The question of Holiday versus Christmas. What a load of malarkey, if I may borrow a term or better yet Humbug, screw it all.

I want something with less of a belonging or fellowship basis (which is divisive as it ostracizes) and more of a good spirit and Christmas ain’t it. We need a holiday that isn’t about sect but about integral relationships to one another. Religion only serves to divide, like the Christian on this post that regardless of faith wishes everyone that they have a merry Christ-mass, What the hell is that? I am hindu—Merry Puja!, come on it’s stupid! Yuletide has nice ring to it don’t you think?

Posted by: Novenge at December 8, 2005 9:55 PM
Comment #100374

The irony is that the Christian right is trying to put Christ back in Christmas, but they are the ones who took Christ out of Christian.

BTW, where I work we get paid holiday pay for all the major holidays, including Christmas, except for Easter. Why? Because Easter is not considered a national holiday, it is a religious holiday. Why don’t they pay holiday pay for religious holidays? Because if they had to pay holiday pay for a Christian holiday like Easter, then they would have to pay for every religious holiday regardless of faith. If they had to pay holiday pay for all these holidays, then nobody would have to work again.

The point is, is that Christmas is considered a national holiday, not necessarily a religious one. A national holiday of Joy, Peace, and Goodwill towards our fellow man. Every Christmas I can remember has embodied this spirit. My greatest hope is that the RW Christians do not succeed in destroying that spirit.

May everyone have a safe and joyful holiday season, and prosper in the New Year!

Posted by: JayJay Snowman at December 8, 2005 10:26 PM
Comment #100376

Mary’s mother was the virgin, not Mary.

That was important to God, for he wanted purity in Mary so she could carry the Savior to term.

However, it was NOT important for his son Jesus to be immaculately conceived, he was the result of a sweaty, sticky, union of sperm and ova. Apparently purity was not quite as important to God as far as the birth of his only begotten was concerned. Would someone please tell me again what Christmas is all about?

Posted by: Marysdude at December 8, 2005 10:34 PM
Comment #100377

Mary’s mother was the virgin, not Mary.

That was important to God, for he wanted purity in Mary so she could carry the Savior to term.

However, it was NOT important for his son Jesus to be immaculately conceived, he was the result of a sweaty, sticky, union of sperm and ova. Apparently purity was not quite as important to God as far as the birth of his only begotten was concerned. Would someone please tell me again what Christmas is all about?

Posted by: Marysdude at December 8, 2005 10:36 PM
Comment #100378

“Be vewy vewy quiet I’m hunting a fight with a fundamentawist.”

:) oh. i’ll let you know if i see any.

…and, merry yuletide!

Posted by: Diogenes at December 8, 2005 11:01 PM
Comment #100383

Doze waskawy fundametawists…

Posted by: ElliottBay at December 8, 2005 11:13 PM
Comment #100394

Crap, something must be wrong. I am in agreement with Paul.

Craig

Posted by: Craig Holmes at December 8, 2005 11:58 PM
Comment #100410

“Mary’s mother was the virgin, not Mary.

That was important to God, for he wanted purity in Mary so she could carry the Savior to term.”

What I understand is that Catholic philosophers decided that Mary was an immaculate conception, meaning that she was born without orginal sin, unlike every other person ever born, enabling her to be the mother of God born in man.

But maybe I am missing something here.

The meaning of Christmas? Joy to the World, the Lord has come. Let earth receive her king. And heaven and nature sing. I think you’d be hardpressed to say that the holiday known as Christmas as it is celebrated is not only the celebration of the birth of the savior of the world, but also is the celebration of one of eight points in the turning of the wheel, Yule.

The meaning of Christmas? I say it’s Peace on Earth. Goodwill to All. I’m unconcerned with accurately translating someone else’s words. That’s what it means to me.

BTW, Bush sent out greeting cards during this season that wished Happy Holidays. Who decided it was a Christmas card?

Posted by: T. Krickeberg at December 9, 2005 1:38 AM
Comment #100411

Don’t let it bother you. The Republicans are just trying to rally thier Base. Its like the Gay Marriage Issue during the Elections. Vote Republican to save the Sanctity of Marriage!!! Support the GOP if you want to save Christmas!!! They pull out the Us vs Them stuff when their people are about to get indicted and stuff.

Posted by: Aldous at December 9, 2005 1:42 AM
Comment #100420

LET’S LEAVE IT AT “HO! HO! HO!
CONNOTATES HAPPINESS, LIGHTHEARTEDNESS AND GOODWILL - OR NOTHING AT ALL.

Posted by: Comfortablynumb at December 9, 2005 2:36 AM
Comment #100430

I don’t understand why Christians are complaining about a so-called “war on Christmas”? Christmas as a holiday has deeper Pagan roots than Christian ones.

No one KNOWS when Jesus was born. Buy many speculate that it was not on December 25th. LUKE mentions that shepherds were tending their flocks in the fields when Jesus was born in the Manger in Bethlehem. Now, I don’t think shepherds and flocks would be out in the fields in December, do you? (Read more here)

The only reason the Roman Catholic Church picked December 25th was because they picked it up from Pagan sources in order to more easily convert Pagans to Christianity. (Read more here)

There are hard core Christian Fundamentalists out there who believe that Christians shouldn’t celebrate Christmas at all because of its Pagan origins.

I think the WHOLE thing is REDICULOUS! IT’S ABOUT TOLERANCE PEOPLE! LIVE AND LET LIVE! It’s like everything else in life… you have free will, and you have a choice: if you don’t like blue cars, don’t drive one; if you don’t believe in abortion, don’t have one; if you don’t want to call it holidays and want to call it Christmas, then that’s is your CHOICE! That is WHY God gave you free will.

I don’t tell people how to live their lives, and all I ask is that these people STOP telling me what to do and how to live my life. DON’T THEY HAVE ANYTHING BETTER TO DO WITH THEIR TIME?

Posted by: Elise at December 9, 2005 3:02 AM
Comment #100431

Well my links didn’t work, so here they are:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_date.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_sel.htm

Posted by: Elise at December 9, 2005 3:03 AM
Comment #100446
The only reason the Roman Catholic Church picked December 25th was because they picked it up from Pagan sources in order to more easily convert Pagans to Christianity.

Elise,

You are correct. In fact most Christian observances are based around pagan worship. The Sabbath is Saturday. The Roman Catholic Church made a deal with the Pagan leaders to change it to Sunday, the day the Pagans worshiped the Sun.

It is ashame that we have allowed the Fundamental Christians in this country to turn the Celebration of Christ into politics. This is a sad day, indeed.

Posted by: JayJay Snowman at December 9, 2005 5:21 AM
Comment #100457

strange, isn’t it? the ACLU, move on.org, the NAACP,etc. can’t be bothered to express their good will at this time of year. the perps who give us the excrement of rap music, acid rock, political correctness and thoughts like howard stern are nowhere to be found expressed here. most of the people commenting here have taken the time to choose their words wisely and considerately. GOOD! a wonderful season of joy and excitement to all of you. and keep the good viewpoints comming, Paul Siegal.

Posted by: dennis wiitala at December 9, 2005 5:56 AM
Comment #100476

Most people in this world are fundementalists of some sort or another. To be a true christain, you have to be a fundementalist in the true meaning. Too many ignorant people confuse, fundementalism with fanatacism, and they are indeed completely different. If you don’t wish to believe the bible than that is your choice, but do something constructive rather than destructive. Happy a Merry Christmas and a happy prosperous New Year.

Posted by: jim bob at December 9, 2005 7:41 AM
Comment #100482

After reading all this I wish I wish I wish, that we can all remember one thing that is the most important, and that is no matter what our religious or non-religious beliefs are we are all part of one single race of people and that is simply the human race. When we embrace this simple fact than all of our prejudices towards each other and our different beliefs will be gone forever. We are all different but at the same time we are the same. Greed is destroying not just this country but our entire world. All of these actions are predicated by the fact that money is the driving factor in our lives. If we are ever to be close to who ever our GOD is then we need to strip ourselves of the worldy possesions we hold so sacred. Then and only then can we truly be able to wish each other peace on Earth and goodwill towards all people.

Posted by: Vic R at December 9, 2005 8:07 AM
Comment #100483

To all:

I don’t particularly care whether someone wishes me a Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukkah or Wonderful Kwanzaa. Remember the little saying of ‘its the thought that counts’? Someone wishing me good things is in itself a good thing. That I am not Jewish, and therefore do not celebrate Hanukkah doesn’t diminish the person’s thought, nor do I think I am being intolerant if I wish a non-Christian Merry Christmas. Its the same as being considered intolerant for wishing someone “Have a good day” when they are having a terrible day.

What I find silly is when people try to get rid of the word Christmas. The whole holiday tree thing is silly, because we all know its a Christmas tree. People who buy them put presents under them and open the presents on Christmas Day. In fact, they get Christmas day off from work, whether they are Jewish or Muslim or whatever. The use of the word ‘Christmas’ tree is not offensive—its simply a description.

A Christian friend once gave my family a menorah as a gift. It looked like a bunch of candles with angels on it, but ultimately we determined it was in fact a menorah that just didnt look much like a menorah. Not being Jewish, I’d normally not have a menorah in my home, but I do now. No need for me to take offense at being given a Jewish symbol—it was simply a gift from a friend.

To any out there who want to get rid of the “Christ” in Christmas. I ask for tolerance from all and to all. To those who want to project only their version of religion, I ask for tolerance from all and to all.

With that, I wish you all Happy Holidays, a very Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at December 9, 2005 8:13 AM
Comment #100496

Those of you who seem convinced that conservatives are filled with hate, have never talked to one. Forget what you read in the papers or hear on the news. Find the conservative man or woman on the street and talk to them. These are the people who are kind and compassionate, they are the ones who are involved in their communities donating their time to help those less fortunate. And yes, they even work side by side with those of different political beliefs.

They do it because it’s the right thing to do.

My question about Christmas is this, In the USA, We have had “Christmas” for a long time. Why do we feel we need to change the name?

After all, it seems we ARE taking every connotation of GOD out of everything these days. Why are doing this now, and why didn’t they do back in 1776?

Posted by: Discerner at December 9, 2005 8:53 AM
Comment #100498

Merry Christmas to all…

Posted by: Discerner at December 9, 2005 8:54 AM
Comment #100502

wow! I had no idea the NAACP and the ACLU created rap music and howard stern.
I think you have your acronyms mixed up.
DId you mean NWA and NBC. I hope so.

Posted by: Paul_montreal at December 9, 2005 9:19 AM
Comment #100503

Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, non-addictive, gender neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all.
___________________________
Best wishes as well for a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2005, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great (not to imply that the U.S. is necessarily greater than any other country), and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith, choice of computer platform, or sexual preference of the wishee.
___________________________

(TERMS and CONDITIONS - By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms. This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for her/himself or others, and is void where prohibited by law, and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year, or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.)
: )

Posted by: d.a.n at December 9, 2005 9:21 AM
Comment #100508

jim bob wrote:

Most people in this world are fundementalists of some sort or another. To be a true christain, you have to be a fundementalist in the true meaning.

Careful. There are many different ways to be Christian. Many prominent ones are adamantly opposed to tenets of fundamentalism (e.g., the idea that the Bible has to be interpreted “as written” — or without the aid of historical/literary criticism). I’m not trying to disrespect either side, but I would hope that we can all agree that you don’t have to be a member of a particular denomination to be a good Christian.

Posted by: Steve Westby at December 9, 2005 9:46 AM
Comment #100516

WHY do we feel we must base good will, or any other aspect of our behaviour, on FAIRY TALES, FANTASIES and LIES! Religion is not only an enormous hoax, it is the major cause of war, hatred, and suffering in the world, and always has been. There isn’t any “god”, or any of that other supernatural nonsense, yet hundreds of millions of people remain hoodwinked into believing this outrageous lie to the point of killing each other over which version of it is “right”. GROW UP!!! If there actually WAS a god, and he had any intelligence at all, he’d wipe the human race out and start all over. And if there actually was a devil, he’d invent religion.

Posted by: capnmike at December 9, 2005 10:15 AM
Comment #100525

You are a christian only if you accept Jesus as your saviour, denominations dont mean a thing other than maybe fellowship.

Name a few prominent ones that are not fundementalist’s?

Posted by: jim bob at December 9, 2005 10:50 AM
Comment #100528

Merry Christmas to all!

Posted by: Paul C. at December 9, 2005 10:54 AM
Comment #100531
Name a few prominent ones that are not fundementalist’s?

Roman Catholics and the Orthodox to start, plus many Protestants.

Fundamentalism as defined in this thread (“the idea that the Bible has to be interpreted ‘as written’ — or without the aid of historical/literary criticism”) is primarily found in Protestant denominations, but not all of them, and there is a different type of Catholic Fundamentalism.

There’s a good overview of the distinctions on Wikipedia.

Posted by: LawnBoy at December 9, 2005 11:01 AM
Comment #100549

Morning All: or should that be Mourning?

It amazes me that a simple greeting of “Happy Holidays” Could be So offensive to so very many people. Do you all get offended when someone says “Good Morning” (or appropriate greeting based on the time of day) to you or everyone in the workplace when entering? It is as appropriate this time of year as saying thank you to someone who has just performed a service for you. This is called “exchanging pleasantries”, whether or not you agree with what is said, take it at face value for what it was intended to be, not what you perceive it to be.
Absum!,
Wayne

PS Happy, Merry, Joyous, Gracious, Miserable, Dreary, Gloomy…You pick the type of day you wish to have.

Posted by: wayne at December 9, 2005 11:34 AM
Comment #100551

this war on christmas thing is starting to get on my nerves its a trap meant to distract us from the real issues and we continue to blindly walk right in to it
someone please tell me why we’ve suddenly become so stupid as to completely forget about the important issues.
how come nobody seems to care about hurricane katrina anymore?

Posted by: trapavoider at December 9, 2005 11:39 AM
Comment #100553

It seems that in a few more years we will be like Ireland in the early 20th Century. There will be a religious war between FREC/Plutocrats and everyone else. Let’s just hope it’s not too bloody and in the end we’ll “all just get along”. Meanwhile, I’m preparing my kids to move to China when it starts. It’ll be the only first world country left by then.

Posted by: Dave the insincere at December 9, 2005 11:41 AM
Comment #100558

jim bob wrote:

You are a christian only if you accept Jesus as your saviour, denominations dont mean a thing other than maybe fellowship.

Name a few prominent ones that are not fundementalist’s?

Lawnboy beat me to it. I was going to say the Pope.

Posted by: Steve Westby at December 9, 2005 11:49 AM
Comment #100559

d.a.n.

I’ve written and rewritten responses to your post, but none match the majestry of yours. Therefore, I simply offer hearty congratulations and thanks for your fine post.

P.S. The term ‘hearty’ is not meant to diminish any of the other organs, nor to comment upon their worthiness. You may feel free to substitute any organ of choice as you see fit.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at December 9, 2005 11:51 AM
Comment #100568

Hey, folks…

If someone hadn’t come up with something to be upset about, I’d be surprised. It appears that our country runs on arguments, or on fear. I remember when AIDS caused this much discussion, that Kennedy was ROMAN Catholic had people worried, Watergate, Gasoline Prices (the first time as well as the second time), smoking, etc. If people try hard enough they can always find something to disagree about.

The same is now true of Christmas. If we can’t argue about the war, then we’ll find something else to fuss about.

Religion has always been great material to stimulate the stupid glands. From the Death of Jesus, though the Crusades, Roman Catholic and Protestant conflicts, North Ireland, and even in our own country, religion has been the basis of much conflict.

I wish everyone a Merry HIGHER POWER! There that solves everything! No God, no Allah, no anyone in particular. Nah that just doesn’t cut it.

Steve Westby: I believe that your misconception has already been addresed.

Marysdude: Mary’s mother was the virgin? Not Mary? That’s a new one on me. Are you impling that Mary was somesort of S$#T? I’d really like to learn more about this idea.

Elise and JayJay: BRAVO!!! It would appear that even back in the olden days, compromise (lying, or perhaps fraud) was used by many Christians. (Hey, it’s a thought)

So Merry/Happy whatever your belief is. After all it is the thought that counts…I hope.
Peace and goodwill to all men and women regardless of their individual beliefs - even Captmike!
Linda H.


Posted by: Linda H. at December 9, 2005 12:07 PM
Comment #100569

D.A.N.,

That has to be the funniest thing I’ve read thus far on Watchblog. Awesome Post!!

May Thetan overlords of the holoverse fill your pagan stockings with mind engrams to fight Neutrinos falling from the sky—A Scientologist holiday greeting.

Posted by: Novenge at December 9, 2005 12:09 PM
Comment #100582

MERRY CHRISTMAS NOVENGE!!!

Posted by: kctim at December 9, 2005 12:30 PM
Comment #100584


—-
Dec. 25 was the birthday of Sol Invictus, the conquering sun, coming back after the shortest day of the year. Saturn of the Saturnalia was the old man with the scythe on “new years” and his holiday was celebrated with gift giving, with a lord of misrule, presiding over a travesty of role reversals.

Jesus was a guy that was born in a barn in Bethlehem. Some stuff happened, which none of his followers could ever agree about. After a couple of centuries, in which many women promoted belief in him, Constantine’s mother Helen promoted the religion into imperial favor, and it eventusally became the state religion.

It is a religion which has changed in every century, adapting to the current cultural trends. It has worshipped pagan gods and the bones of dead heroes and holy people. It founded monasteries and universities while torturing and murdering people who tried to be too religious.

People talking about someone being “christian” are generally referring to someone more like Francis of Assisi than the original guy 12 centuries before him. Oral and pictorial mythologies were built up around figures like Mary based on imagination and not much else.

The bible only became a significant influence on the religion after printing when literacy became more common. This resulted in the same old problem of people thinking too much and believing that the religious authorities didn’t always get everything right, which resulted in more torture and murder.

By the 18th century, some people were fed up with all the nonsense, and developed alternative ideas completely outside of the realm of religion. One of those ideas was The United States of America, where people have the freedom not to have a religion imposed on them by the tyranny of the majority, or a minority temporarily in power.

2 centuries later, a statue of a little blonde baby in a feeding trough becomes a political issue, for some folks with a television network, who like to divert attention from more serious thing happening in the world. Thank goodness for the BBC.

Posted by: ray at December 9, 2005 12:31 PM
Comment #100583


—-
Dec. 25 was the birthday of Sol Invictus, the conquering sun, coming back after the shortest day of the year. Saturn of the Saturnalia was the old man with the scythe on “new years” and his holiday was celebrated with gift giving, with a lord of misrule, presiding over a travesty of role reversals.

Jesus was a guy that was born in a barn in Bethlehem. Some stuff happened, which none of his followers could ever agree about. After a couple of centuries, in which many women promoted belief in him, Constantine’s mother Helen promoted the religion into imperial favor, and it eventusally became the state religion.

It is a religion which has changed in every century, adapting to the current cultural trends. It has worshipped pagan gods and the bones of dead heroes and holy people. It founded monasteries and universities while torturing and murdering people who tried to be too religious.

People talking about someone being “christian” are generally referring to someone more like Francis of Assisi than the original guy 12 centuries before him. Oral and pictorial mythologies were built up around figures like Mary based on imagination and not much else.

The bible only became a significant influence on the religion after printing when literacy became more common. This resulted in the same old problem of people thinking too much and believing that the religious authorities didn’t always get everything right, which resulted in more torture and murder.

By the 18th century, some people were fed up with all the nonsense, and developed alternative ideas completely outside of the realm of religion. One of those ideas was The United States of America, where people have the freedom not to have a religion imposed on them by the tyranny of the majority, or a minority temporarily in power.

2 centuries later, a statue of a little blonde baby in a feeding trough becomes a political issue, for some folks with a television network, who like to divert attention from more serious thing happening in the world. Thank goodness for the BBC.

Posted by: ray at December 9, 2005 12:31 PM
Comment #100591

Linda H. wrote:

Steve Westby: I believe that your misconception has already been addresed.

Ummm…I’m sorry, which “misconception” are you referring to? My wife assures me I have many! =)

Posted by: Steve Westby at December 9, 2005 12:47 PM
Comment #100598

Steve Westby,

I think Linda was misattributing jim bob’s misconception to you.

Posted by: LawnBoy at December 9, 2005 12:55 PM
Comment #100601

Thanks, LawnBoy. That clears it up.

And best wishes for a holiday season filled with light, joy, and understanding to you all.

Posted by: Steve Westby at December 9, 2005 12:59 PM
Comment #100604

KCTIM,

Merry prayers and alms to Ganesha and Vishnu maintainer of the Universe and have very happy lunar calendar based pilgrimage. It’s still stupid!

Merry Christ was born so you can be recieved unto heaven by sheer unfounded belief that that’s where you are going based on ubsubstantiated word of mouth as cannonized by clerics of the mid third century Anno Domini. And a happy new year.

Have a good one.

Posted by: Novenge at December 9, 2005 1:01 PM
Comment #100607

Fa la la la la!
Wayne I’m having a very good day, and I hope you are too!
This thread is entertaining and hilarious. Nice work, people. Novenge! I’d love to raise a mead filled drinking-horn in your honor, but since it’s morning, I’m raising my coffee cup instead.

If you guys never imagined that intentional political incorrectness could become as tight-assed and annoyingly nit-picky as strict political correctness can be, I’m pleased to be able to direct you to this article.
I hope you enjoy the silliness of the last line as much as I did!

Posted by: Adrienne at December 9, 2005 1:03 PM
Comment #100612

Adrienne:
I am having a wonderful day, Thank You.
How thoughtful of you to ask. I read the entire link, And found the last line to be hillarious. Thanks for sharing.
As Always,
Wayne

Posted by: wayne at December 9, 2005 1:13 PM
Comment #100618

Novenge
I believe in NOTHING, so your feable attempts to offend me are silly.
I take the words of people in the manner in which they are presented and I will never think less of a person for being religious. I am not afraid of them and I offer my respect to them.

Maybe if you respected their rights as much as you demand they respect yours, you wouldnt be so apt to call them “assholes, dolts and dickheads.”
Of course, by doing that, you would have to find another easy target to blame all your problems on.

You have a good one too.
Tis the season you know.

Posted by: kctim at December 9, 2005 1:29 PM
Comment #100623

I think people just got sick of going through the rigamarole of doing Ramadan, Kwanzaa, New Years Eve, Christmas, Chanukah and whatnot that they just simplified it, as is typical in today’s business environment. The sad thing here is that people are essentially protesting other people’s right to celebrate their holidays as they please, as if their own freedoms were being stripped from them.

Grow up people! All you have to do is whatever you want to do! If you want to celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ, instead of some secular holiday, you have every right to do so, and to encourage others to do the same. You have every right to remind people of the true meaning of Christmas, ala Charlie Brown.

I don’t know how exactly the Right expects to verbally bully folks into de-secularizing the Holiday season. If anything, they are reinforcing the secularization by making people who insist on the religious aspect of Christmas an obnoxious example of both holiday and Christian spirit.

So, in short, it’s time for these people to lighten up, enjoy a Merry Christmas, and have a happy holiday season.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at December 9, 2005 2:03 PM
Comment #100625

“I don’t know how exactly the Right expects to verbally bully folks into de-secularizing the Holiday season”

The same way the left bullied folks into secularizing the Holiday season: Scare tactics and the dollar.

Posted by: kctim at December 9, 2005 2:09 PM
Comment #100627
I don’t know how exactly the Right expects to verbally bully folks into de-secularizing the Holiday season.

Ironically, in the attempt to de-secularize the holiday, they’re actually supporting the commercialization of it.

As noted in the article I linked to earlier,

The American Family Association is leading a boycott of Target for not using the words “Merry Christmas” in its advertising. (Target denies it has an anti-Merry-Christmas policy.) The Catholic League boycotted Wal-Mart in part over the way its Web site treated searches for “Christmas.” Bill O’Reilly, the Fox anchor who last year started a “Christmas Under Siege” campaign, has a chart on his Web site of stores that use the phrase “Happy Holidays,” along with a poll that asks, “Will you shop at stores that do not say ‘Merry Christmas’?”

Businesses are being punished by the Right for not commercializing Christmas.

Posted by: LawnBoy at December 9, 2005 2:15 PM
Comment #100630

Do companies have the right to dictate which term employees use?

Posted by: kctim at December 9, 2005 2:32 PM
Comment #100633
Do companies have the right to dictate which term employees use?

IANAL, but I would think it depends on the context. I don’t think a company has the right to dictate the terms used in casual conversation behind closed doors (excluding obscenity). However, if an employee is serving as a representative of the company, then I think the company would have the right to dictate what image the company wants presented about itself.

Posted by: LawnBoy at December 9, 2005 2:38 PM
Comment #100634

kctim,

If there is a corporate policy applicable for business communications, then yes.

Posted by: Dave at December 9, 2005 2:40 PM
Comment #100636

Excellent comments by all.

If your a Christian and someone wishes you a “Happy Holidays” … Get over yourself. (No one is trying to take YOUR GOD away).

If your not a Christian and someone wishes you a “Merry Christmas” … Get over yourself. (No one is trying to disrespect your beliefs/or lack of).

As a “Christian” I find it quite offensive to celabrate “Christmas”, anyway. AND, (as a “Christian”) I have always considered myself to be Jewish, anyway. (Through the blood of Christ who was also a Jew/by faith AND by birth).

As a member of the HUMAN Denomination, I believe that we all have a lot to learn from each other. Not the least of which is tolerance, patience, and love & best wishes for one another.

SAY, isn’t that what Jesus was trying to teach?

PEACE !

Posted by: Playnice at December 9, 2005 2:41 PM
Comment #100638

I am very pleased (for the most part) with your reactions to my post. I am happy to see that America still believes in peace and goodwill.

Merry Christmas.

Posted by: Paul Siegel at December 9, 2005 2:50 PM
Comment #100640

What about simple greetings?
Anything wrong with allowing employees to wish customers whichever greeting the employee wants, “Merry Christmas” or “Happy Holidays?”

Is it fair for special interests groups to force companies to go the secular route?
Is it fair to take away a persons freedom of religion and force them to say something they dont believe or think is wrong?

Posted by: kctim at December 9, 2005 2:54 PM
Comment #100643

Stephen:
“So, in short, it’s time for these people to lighten up, enjoy a Merry Christmas, and have a happy holiday season.”

Toward that end (lightening up, that is), here’s one of the wackiest holiday lawn displays I’ve heard of in awhile:
Man creates Paris Hilton Christmas shrine

Posted by: Adrienne at December 9, 2005 3:00 PM
Comment #100646
Is it fair for special interests groups to force companies to go the secular route?

Is it fair for special interest groups to force companies to go the religious route? That’s what is happening now with the protests against Target and Wal-Mart, etc.

Posted by: LawnBoy at December 9, 2005 3:06 PM
Comment #100652

They are just fighting fire with fire LB.
Even still though, is it fair for either side to force their beliefs onto a corporation?
And should a religious person be afforded their freedom of religion and free speech when they are at work?

Posted by: kctim at December 9, 2005 3:38 PM
Comment #100657
And should a religious person be afforded their freedom of religion and free speech when they are at work?

How far are you willing to take the principle? Could a Satanist working for Target answer the phone with “May the Dark Lord remember you”? Could a member of Fred Phelps’ church end conversations while working at General Motors with “…and remember, AIDS is God’s cure for Fags”?

I know those are extreme examples, but what policy should be in place that accounts for the unpopular religions as well as Christmas?

Posted by: LawnBoy at December 9, 2005 3:52 PM
Comment #100668

LB
“what policy should be in place that accounts for the unpopular religions as well as Christmas?”

Only company policy, but it must be fair to all employees.
If an atheist cannot be forced to say “Merry Christmas” then a Christian cannot be forced to not say it.

I do not care one bit about unpopular religions.
If, as you said, Target wishes to greet with a Dark Lord phrase (loved that example by the way) then it is their right. It is also my right to not shop there.

I’m just saying the two sides should be consistent.
You cannot think its wrong to hear a Merry Christmas greeting but yet believe its right to take away someones right to say it.

Posted by: kctim at December 9, 2005 4:34 PM
Comment #100677
I do not care one bit about unpopular religions.

Fortunately, your attitude is not what the Constitution is based on.

If, as you said, Target wishes to greet with a Dark Lord phrase (loved that example by the way) then it is their right. It is also my right to not shop there.

The intent of my analogy was not that Target wanted its employees to greet with a Dark Lord phrase. Instead, that a Target employee wished to end business conversations with a Satanist invocation despite the fact that it wasn’t Target policy. Do you think that Target should be powerless to stop an employee giving the impression that Target supports Satanism? Or that GM thinks that AIDS is a good thing because it kills gays?

You cannot think its wrong to hear a Merry Christmas greeting but yet believe its right to take away someones right to say it.

Actually, one can believe that. You might find those beliefs inconsistent, but that doesn’t mean that it’s logically or legally invalid.

Posted by: LawnBoy at December 9, 2005 4:54 PM
Comment #100687

LB
“Fortunately, your attitude is not what the Constitution is based on”

I know what the Constitution is based on concerning religion: freedom OF religion for all Americans.
I care not for unpopular religion because they are not the ones in the limelight and because I care not for any religion.

“Actually, one can believe that. You might find those beliefs inconsistent, but that doesn’t mean that it’s logically or legally invalid”

They are invalid because they are hypocritical. The belief that it is ok to violate one persons rights so as not to offend another is ridiculous.

Posted by: kctim at December 9, 2005 5:27 PM
Comment #100695

kctim,

Then what did you mean by your statement I do not care one bit about unpopular religions? I took it to mean that you didn’t care about unpopular religions and that you felt that examples using them were irrelevant.

If you instead meant that you are an atheist and don’t care about any religion (regardless of popularity), then my response was inappropriate. However, that would make your response something of a non-sequitur.

They are invalid because they are hypocritical. The belief that it is ok to violate one persons rights so as not to offend another is ridiculous.

ok, let’s go back to this. Here’s what you said:

You cannot think its wrong to hear a Merry Christmas greeting but yet believe its right to take away someones right to say it.

I guess I don’t understand exactly what you are saying. What you seem to be saying is that one loses the right not to want to hear something if one doesn’t want to hear it.

What am I missing?

Anyway, I don’t think that’s the point here. The current controversy is coming up because the Right is trying to force companies to use religious speech. It’s a similar issue, but it’s really the opposite of what you said.

Posted by: LawnBoy at December 9, 2005 5:49 PM
Comment #100698

Wow.. that sure opened up a can of worms! And to Paul.. “none” is singular … use “includes” to agree with it.

TNgM

Posted by: Tom at December 9, 2005 5:56 PM
Comment #100704

Jim Walls makes the point that we are hypocrites for not keeping our Christianity in our politics, or foreign policy, our courts, and so forth. Any attempt to put them in there, though, gets shrill treatment from the ACLU and so many other groups, that even democratic politicians can’t keep true to their religious values, like Jennifer Granholm of Michigan who is Catholic, or else the money machine, in this case Emily’s list, won’t support them. Jimmy Carter was a fine Christian, yet he was horribly condemned in all quarters for either being too Christian in a secular “church separate from state” government, or else condemned by Christians for not acting more fully on his faith. Look at the screeching when JFK was running for President, as if he would turn his entire presidency over to the Pope. No, the secularists can’t have it both ways and blame the Christians. Either the values of true Christianity are what we want to inform our government decisions, including the supreme court, or they aren’t. If they aren’t, you can’t blame Christians of ANY STRIPE, conservative or liberal, from taking actions consistent with their faith.

Posted by: margaret schaut at December 9, 2005 6:19 PM
Comment #100707

Kind of funny when you think of it. The Church made Dec. 25th the celebration of Christ’s birthday so the Chritian church could hijack a non-christian holiday to begin with. So if we are to really celebrate the true meaning of christmas we should be celebrating as heretical Romans. (toga party anyone?) The real problem for the fanatics is others are using the same tactics as they did.
As a disclosure I should report I do believe in God. I just never had the opportunity to talk to him like so many of the fanatics have. Probably why I still like diversity in people and cultures.

Posted by: zakquiet at December 9, 2005 6:32 PM
Comment #100715

WAIT A MINUTE.

Yes, in America we are supposed to have the right of free speach. But, that does not give anyone the right to open another person’s mouth and spoon down their peticular brand of drivel in it.

You can yell fire in a crowed theatre too. But, then the police have the right to arrest you for causing a riot. (And, then, (you idiot) … you have the additional right to remain silent … and you should, for your OWN good!).

If you work for Wal-Mart and want to say, “Merry Christmas” to everyone comming thru your check stand, and it’s not within company policy? You have the additional right to be fired. And, if I, as a Christian by faith, choose not to shop there because I don’t paticularily like to be slapped with “Merry Christmas” every ten feet (because, … it is a PAGAN Holiday, after all!), then I (as a Christian), also, have the right NOT to shop there, and find somwhere else to spend MY money, that is more respectfull to my sensitivities.

So the road goes in both directions.

And, for all you Christian fanatics, who give us “Bible” beliveing Christians a bad name? Get over yourself and learn that you and your brand of “faith” are not the only truths in this world. Also, you are not being hindered, in any way, from practicing your religion. It’s just that you have NO right to hobble everyone else on this planet with the “Cross of Galvery”, (nailed to their feet, as YOU see fit)! To believe or not to believe, is a calling from God…Not by anything on YOUR part. (And, if you’re a right wing; Christian fanactical; idiot? Your not much of a representitive for your God or for your faith, anyway, so the last thing you should be doing is instructing others).

If Jesus was was alive today, I doubt that the largest consumer Holiday of the year, with the most accumulative debt ratio per capata, would be the Holiday of HIS choice to celabrate HIS birth into this world!

There is a big difference in the liberty to practice your religion … and having the right to nail your religion onto everyone else. Or, in having the freedom to worship as you please, (if you please), and throwing your belief’s into everyone elses face!

Please enjoy the holiday in whatever way you think is valid (for you) … and let the rest of us — do the same.

Peace on Earth and GoodWill towards Men (Even the stupid ones!)

Posted by: Playnice at December 9, 2005 7:08 PM
Comment #100729

Let me set all of you straight for once and for all on this whole American Holiday Season hubbub. (The subtext being that I’m gonna do my best to offend everyone, but might squeeze in a kernel of sense anyhow.)
1. Anyone who gets all bent because someone wished them a happy (whatever holiday) that they don’t believe in has their heads up their asses. Since when has including someone else in something meaningful to the giver been a bad thing? And for that matter, since when has wishing someone happy anything been a reason to get all snotty? Heck, it’s also no bad thing to do that in reverse as far as I can tell.

2. Every good American Patriot knows that the importance of this season - between Thanksgiving and the End of the Fiscal Year -is important and worth celebrating ONLY because it is the last push to end the retail economic year on a high note. Santa Claus in the form we know him was invented by R.H. Macy and Co. to sell things and put people in the spirit of buying so much stuff that we have to give most of it away! Any excuse is a good one! You want to create or resurrect some pagan rituals around this time of year, if there is a merchandising tie-in, then go for it! Heck, I think that it is our patriotic duty to have a different reason to buy more stuff and spend more money every day in December that has a 2 in it, how’s that for patriotic! If it happens that your particular set of delusional beliefs mark some occasion around now, so be it, but I for one think that the Christian Fundies are basically being a bunch of anti-American Traitors for trying to keep non-fundies from participating in this great and important season of frenzied economic activity, in all its beauty and American Glory. I really don’t see what the fuss is about some unmarried woman giving birth in a barn and having to beg for money, so she can raise some long-hair faggot hippie freak criminal who ends up having to be executed by the state, a couple of thousand years ago. Unwed mothers, criminals, longhair freaks, peaceniks - not very conservative republican if you ask me. But, if is their constitutional right to be delusional morons, but not to impose it on other people. And certainly not to use it as an excuse to impede commerce!!!! They don’t like that some stores, say, Target, sell trees for some pagan tree holiday festival, then they can go back to whatever commie country they came from! Pagans have the demand for trees, the American Retail Establishment has a right, nay a duty, to provide the supply! Commerce marches onward! The freedom of people to buy and sell irrespective of race, creed, color, religion, gender preference, etc is a time tested cornerstone principle of liberal American political philosophy. Impeding that right is as un-American as Nikita Khruschev! (Am I correct or am I correct?)

3. Happy retail season to all - now go out and give things to other people; don’t think you’re limited by your friends’ and relatives’ capacity to recieve. There are less fortunate people to consider, so don’t think that your patriotic duty to spend ends when everyone you know has no space left in their homes! If you still have cash or credit, then by golly there is probably a homeless shelter that could absorb an entire supermarket full of stuff if you are patriotic enough to sign next to the X to exercise your credit; so merry X-mas.

4. In the midst of your patriotic economic activity, don’t forget December 25 is Isaac Newton’s Birthday, without whom we would not have any of the conveniences that technology and engineering have provided for us, and it is because of his discovery of gravity that we now know that we get “falling down at 9.8 m/sec^2” drunk, not just “random motion drunk, maybe up, maybe down, maybe sideways.” So hoist a tankard or two (if that is healthy for you) and give thanks for a moment to the scientific method and the remarkable people, such as Newton, who diligently applied it to provide so much for us here and now. For example, thanks to science and technology, even if the retail stores in your area are closed right now, I’ll bet there are websites where you could buy things and do your patriotic duty this season. Now Go!

Posted by: Karl Rove Blows Dogs at December 9, 2005 8:37 PM
Comment #100769

“Please enjoy the holiday in whatever way you think is valid (for you) … and let the rest of us — do the same.

Peace on Earth and GoodWill towards Men (Even the stupid ones!)

Posted by: Playnice at December 9, 2005 07:08 PM”

VERY WELL SAID!

Posted by: Elise at December 9, 2005 11:58 PM
Comment #100876

LB
“Anyway, I don’t think that’s the point here”

Your are correct. I did not mean to derail the thread.
I just believe that if your going to support a persons right to not have to say Merry Christmas, then you have to support a persons right to say it, or your nothing but a hypocrite.

I believe that religious issues transend party lines for the common person and I have been trying to look at it that way.
The only ones who have a problem with employees saying merry christmas or not including a religious expression, are the politically partisan who want to ignore individual rights if they do not conform to their agenda.

I do not care about unpopular religions because they are not the target in this issue.

“The current controversy is coming up because the Right is trying to force companies to use religious speech.”

But it is NOT the right, it is the extreme right. You guys get upset when the entire left is labeled as traitors but then you turn around and do the same thing.

The left created this evil Right Wing Christian take over of the world scenario to try and scare up votes and its actually gone past being funny to being downright obscene.
Its a farce AND a tragedy.

Posted by: kctim at December 10, 2005 11:19 AM
Comment #100923
But it is NOT the right, it is the extreme right. You guys get upset when the entire left is labeled as traitors but then you turn around and do the same thing.

Fair point. I’ll accept the admonishment. I should have been more specific about who was involved instead of overgeneralizing.

I think the the main lesson is what others have said on the thread - if you get offended by an innocent “Merry Christmas” or “Happy Holidays”, then you need to get over yourself.

Posted by: LawnBoy at December 10, 2005 1:22 PM
Comment #100994

Religion is, and has always been, at the root of all evil deeds…

Christians are not Christians. The vast majority are hypocrits that cling to a notion of personal superiority even if they don’t practice what they preach…

I wish people would just practice their beliefs privately and leave everybody else alone to do what it is they might need to do.

Fuck the false practitioners of Christianity - I’m tired to being required to respect their faith when they outright deny the legitimacy of any other but their own… Assholes.

Posted by: MJ Shaw at December 10, 2005 4:44 PM
Comment #101046

kctim;

“I just believe that if your going to support a persons right to not have to say Merry Christmas, then you have to support a persons right to say it, or your nothing but a hypocrite.”

WHAT !?

I support a person’s right to NOT have to say, “Merry Christmas” because that phrase is religiously specific. That phrase is disrespectful to anyone who hears it, anyone who does not believe the way you do, or who does not celebrate the “Holiday Season” the way you do; or, within the same terms or boundaries of your particular celebration practices and traditions. So therefore,( with your logic ) I should be in favor of you saying, “Merry Christmas” to me (If I don’t say it or want to say it to you). No, I’m not disrespecting you by not saying, “Merry Christmas”, so why should you disrespect me by saying it? (Especially when “Happy Holidays”; “Seasons Greetings” and “A joyous Holiday Season to you and to yours”, is neither religiously specific or offensive to either of us, regardless of our particular faiths, traditions or beliefs).

“The only ones who have a problem with employees saying merry Christmas or not including a religious expression, are the politically partisan who want to ignore individual rights if they do not conform to their agenda.”

No, wrong again. I have a problem with employees saying a religiously specific greeting at this time of year because it’s disrespectful to anyone who is not of that specific religion, or the persons of that particular religion that do not necessarily agree with that particular religious practice. I have a problem with, “Merry Christmas” simply because I AM A CHRISTIAN ! And, every orifice of that particular holiday is a complete opposite of what Jesus stood for; preached against; and eventually died for. (How a person who claims to be a Christian can celebrate “Christmas” and make that obscenity a valid part of their religious belief system is just beyond me. And, I hate to be offensive to my fellow Christians out there; but, if you’d spend more time reading the bible, you’d eventually come to the same conclusion as I have. BTW ‘Santa’ can also be rearranged to spell ‘Satan’, how poignant!)

“…..are the politically partisan who want to ignore individual rights if they do not conform to their agenda.”

No no NO, Politics has nothing to do with it. Doesn’t have anything to do with whether you are a Democrat a Republican or an Independent. (Yep, we exist too). It only has to do with the ability for you to be considerate to other people’s rights of faith, beliefs, and religious practices. A right defined by our constitution, here in the U.S., that protects us AND grants us the free expression of the religion of our choice, and also protects us FROM HAVING ANY “RELIGION”, (State or by others) FORCED UPON US.

Hey, like I said before,,,,,the door swings BOTH WAYS. You don’t want to shop at Wal-Mart because they don’t say, “Merry Christmas”. Well, I won’t shop there if they do.

“…ignore individual rights if they do not conform to their agenda.”

If individual rights are to be maintained, then a non-religious specific greeting must be adopted by a sane; compassionate; and just society. Fairness to one can not override fairness to all. “Happy Holidays”, “Seasons Greetings”, etc, are appropriate to anyone who may want to celebrate this time of year….(or not).

“…if they do not conform to their agenda.”

Please, the only one’s - with an “agenda” here, is the Religious Right ! They are marching for “Christmas” and for other things, in our society, that go along the same party lines with the same agenda ( devision and devisiveness). I do not like the way the world is changing. I believe that I have out-lived my time. People used to be considerate to one another. People didn’t have to be “brow-beaten” in order to make them respect other peoples feelings or beliefs. But, we live in a harsher time. A time when zealots have taken over our society with shouting, chest beating and the misdirection of “public good” or protecting peoples “rights”, when all the while they don’t really seam to think that anyone should have the right to exist but them. I see signs of the same conditions that created the “Inquisition” and the “Holocaust”. I see extremists like the religious right in the U.S. and the religious extremists in the Mid-East (Muslum extremists), where the line of distinction and demarcation between the two have become less and less noticiable. I see the old dragon the Clan, (the KKK and White Supremacists) raising it’s ugly hateful head, causing strife and anger between people’s of difference.

And,… I wait … I wonder. Have I out-lived this word? Is the end near? And, most importantly… If Jesus was alive today….would he hate fags? Bomb abortion clinics? And, celebrate CHRISTMAS?

Food for thought?

Posted by: Playnice at December 10, 2005 10:30 PM
Comment #101405

LB
“I think the the main lesson is what others have said on the thread - if you get offended by an innocent “Merry Christmas” or “Happy Holidays”, then you need to get over yourself”

Amen my friend.

Posted by: kctim at December 12, 2005 9:48 AM
Comment #101414

Playnice
“That phrase is disrespectful to anyone who hears it, anyone who does not believe the way you do, or who does not celebrate the “Holiday Season” the way you do; or, within the same terms or boundaries of your particular celebration practices and traditions”

Christmas to me is about giving joy and seeing my childrens reactions. Its about family to me, nothing else.
Merry Christmas is nothing but a pleasant greeting, no different than happy kwanzaa, Chanuka or whatever. Unless somebody is so politically motivated that they allow their politics over rule the intent of the greeting.

“It only has to do with the ability for you to be considerate to other people’s rights of faith, beliefs, and religious practices”

So, not allowing somebody to say Merry Christmas is being considerate of their faith?

“Hey, like I said before,,,,,the door swings BOTH WAYS. You don’t want to shop at Wal-Mart because they don’t say, “Merry Christmas”. Well, I won’t shop there if they do”

Amen to that!

“If Jesus was alive today….would he hate fags? Bomb abortion clinics? And, celebrate CHRISTMAS?”

Probably no more than he would hate Christians, murder innocent children or celebrate the denial of religious expression.

As LawnBoy said, get over it. A person saying Merry Christmas doesnt mean they are a zealot and are intent on forcing you to become a Christian. Its a greeting simply wishing another person happiness, nothing more.
I say Merry Christmas hundreds of times a year, I’m an atheist.
Whats my hidden religious message?

Merry Christmas friend.

Posted by: kctim at December 12, 2005 10:09 AM
Comment #101551

I think the point is this…

Within the United States, there are many different religious beliefs and practices. However, the only greeting that is typical at this time of year is Merry Christmas. Also, just about any store you enter at this time of year has Christmas songs playing relentlessly.

What of the other religious holidays that are happening at the same time as Christmas? Why are there no songs celebrating Hanakua or Kwanza?

“Happy Holidays” is an expression of good will and cheer that encompasses all faiths that are celebrating at this time of year. To say anything more specific is highly assuming (what of the Jewish African-American?).

Isn’t it better to wish all people happiness and joy, rather than sticking to a phrase that indicates self-importance and indulgence…

And let’s face it, it’s safe to say not everyone is Christian and celebrating Christmas at this time of year… The Christian who insists on saying “Merry Christmas” should maybe consider that another person’s religious holiday is just as important as the Christian’s is to them…

Have some respect, people… And an open mind might follow…

Posted by: MJ Shaw at December 12, 2005 2:54 PM
Comment #101555

Hey, KCTim…

Just out of curiosity, what kind of aetheist would wish another person a very religiously specific greeting?

I know a few aetheists and couldn’t imagine them saying “Merry Christmas.”

Are you sure you’re not trying to justify your views by adding the aetheist angle?

Just an assumption that I’m suffering, no offense meant…

Posted by: MJ Shaw at December 12, 2005 2:59 PM
Comment #101578

MJ
“Just out of curiosity, what kind of aetheist would wish another person a very religiously specific greeting?
I know a few aetheists and couldn’t imagine them saying “Merry Christmas.””

I guess one who isnt afraid of their religious beliefs and one who respects their right to religious freedom.
Just because I dont believe in God doesnt mean they can’t.

“Are you sure you’re not trying to justify your views by adding the aetheist angle?”

Yep. Please feel free to go through some old post on here and you will see that I have been consistent.

“Just an assumption that I’m suffering, no offense meant…”

No offense taken.
Thanks for taking the time with me and I hope we keep it going.

Posted by: kctim at December 12, 2005 3:37 PM
Comment #101801

kctim;

“I say Merry Christmas hundreds of times a year, I’m an atheist. Whats my hidden religious message?”

What’s your hidden message? Well, it’s not too hidden, it’s really right out there in the open for all to see. By saying, “Merry Christmas”, it says:

“Hi, I’m a Christian. And, because I’m a Christian, I am so absorbed in my religious beliefs, faith and traditions, that I am completely oblivious to any other persons rights of faith (at this time of year). I’m kinda a stupid dolt that believes that everyone I meet is indeed a “Christian” too, just like me. And like me, they are cellabrating Christmas too.

Never mind that I just said, “Merry Christmas” to that Jew, or that Muslum, and that they may get offended by the fact that I’m just opening my stupid mouth and assuming that they are just like me. Yea, they may be offended; but, that’s in no way going to diswade me in enforcing my rights to cellabrate Christmas in my own way! Hey, it’s a free country, right?

…..After all, it’s my right, to cellabrate my faith the way I want to. And, if they have a different faith, then let them say “Happy Cdunzi” or what ever their pagan beliefs are….(the stupid idiots). I mean really, don’t they know it’s Christmas and that there is NO OTHER Holiday at this time of year (at least no other one that matters!). Hey, they can just get over themselves, if they don’t like it. After all, this is MY HOLIDAY !”

That’s what you are saying every time you say, “Merry Christmas”.

What do you say when you say, “Merry Christmas”? You say that this is YOUR Holiday … A “Christian” Holiday. And, that you are not really going to take the time nor spend the energy to see if it’s my “Holiday” too. That’s because you really don’t care about others. You just only care about EXPRESSING YOURSELF, AND YOUR RIGHTS (And expressing your own religious beliefs)

And, if your saying, “Merry Christmas” and your not even a Christian? It would be like me as a 60 year old white woman, going down to the “hood” and saying, “How’s it hangin boy?” to a black brother. First off, it’s stupid; secondly, it’s pretty offensive (cause hey, don’t look now, … but, I’m NOT black.)

Oh, but you say, “The word “boy” could be offensive to a black man? Because of it’s history? Right? Well, what do you think the word “Christian” should mean to a Jew? With it’s history of oppression, or a Muslum?

But, that’s OK. Go on and keep saying Merry Christmas to everyone you meet. It speaks volumns. It yells loud and clear. Not too many that hear it from you will ever even imagine that you aren’t even really a “Christian” at all. They will just think that you are a jerk to just assumne that they are Christian and cellabrate Christmas, just like you are, and you do.

Just goes to show that in this country, the land of free speach, anyone, anyone at all…
Can open mouth and insert foot.

And, thank you,,,I will have a very Merry Christmas indeed.

Blessings

Posted by: Playnice at December 13, 2005 3:15 AM
Comment #101884

““Hi, I’m a Christian. And, because I’m a Christian, I am so absorbed in my religious beliefs, faith and traditions, that I am completely oblivious to any other persons rights of faith (at this time of year)”

Yeah, there is no way that I am just wishing people the best.
Talk about a stick up your butt, wow.

“I’m kinda a stupid dolt that believes that everyone I meet is indeed a “Christian” too, just like me. And like me, they are cellabrating Christmas too”

Or that I simply don’t care what religion somebody is and that I do not have a political agenda to force onto others.

“Never mind that I just said, “Merry Christmas” to that Jew, or that Muslum, and that they may get offended by the fact that I’m just opening my stupid mouth and assuming that they are just like me”

Your right, some narrowminded people may be offended, but your wrong in assuming that I think they are just like me, I really dont care one way or another.

“Yea, they may be offended; but, that’s in no way going to diswade me in enforcing my rights to cellabrate Christmas in my own way! Hey, it’s a free country, right?”

Yep, but its called “exercising” my rights not “enforcing.”

“…..After all, it’s my right, to cellabrate my faith the way I want to. And, if they have a different faith, then let them say “Happy Cdunzi” or what ever their pagan beliefs are….(the stupid idiots)”

Actually, pagan beliefs are the same thing as religious beliefs and contrary to what you think, BOTH are free to celebrate how they wish.

“Hey, they can just get over themselves, if they don’t like it. After all, this is MY HOLIDAY!””

Amen to that. I won’t whine about them celebrating their holiday their way and they shouldn’t whinie about how or what I celebrate.

“That’s what you are saying every time you say, “Merry Christmas””

Thats what people with a political agenda want it to mean.
To most, saying Merry Christmas is alot nicer than saying F-Off.

“What do you say when you say, “Merry Christmas”? You say that this is YOUR Holiday … A “Christian” Holiday”

Actually, its more like Present-day for me and my family.

“You just only care about EXPRESSING YOURSELF, AND YOUR RIGHTS (And expressing your own religious beliefs)”

Geez, you would think I was gay or something, acting like that. Freedom of expression, where did I ever get that idea.

“And, if your saying, “Merry Christmas” and your not even a Christian?”

It means I’m not petty. Its a simple greeting given this time of year.

“Oh, but you say, “The word “boy” could be offensive to a black man? Because of it’s history? Right?”

Nope, you say that. I personally dont see color when talking with people. Weird how you associate the words “black man” and “hood” though. Thats not offensive is it?

“Well, what do you think the word “Christian” should mean to a Jew? With it’s history of oppression, or a Muslum?”

Yeah, infidel has such a nicer ring to it doesn’t it.

“But, that’s OK. Go on and keep saying Merry Christmas to everyone you meet. It speaks volumns. It yells loud and clear. Not too many that hear it from you will ever even imagine that you aren’t even really a “Christian” at all. They will just think that you are a jerk to just assumne that they are Christian and cellabrate Christmas, just like you are, and you do.”

Yes, a very small group of simple minded people will think I am a jerk, but so what, I do not live my life being afraid of what others think of me. Especially when the vast majority of people I say it to will take it for what it really means, a simple greeting of happiness to them.

“Just goes to show that in this country, the land of free speach, anyone, anyone at all…
Can open mouth and insert foot.”

Damn Constitution!

“And, thank you,,,I will have a very Merry Christmas indeed.

Blessings”

Blessings? How dare you force your Gods wishes onto me by making me read this remark. Whats the difference in saying Merry Christmas, blessings or Happy Holidays? NOTHING! They all could have religious backgrounds.

Thank God I’m mature enough to see them just as words, wishing me happiness.

Thank you.


Posted by: kctim at December 13, 2005 10:03 AM
Comment #101890

I’m an atheist. And I say “Merry Christmas” hundreds of times at this time of the year. I happen to live in a society that, although not particularly religious any longer, has a Christian historical background.

I have no problem with that, and I fail to understand why some people do. Christmas has be celebrated in my country for the last 15 centuries and I see no reason why that should change. Even if we are a secular society these days. Good things shouldn’t change.

Posted by: German at December 13, 2005 10:17 AM
Comment #102041
I say Merry CHristmas to non CHristians all the time and they take it in the spirit given, and smile and return the greeting, we are celebrating the holiday and not the religin I feel. It has always been about family and “good will to men”. Of course I’m not a fundamentalist politically, but I’m more of a thoughtfull christian that tries to live by CHrists example.

I dont know all the facts or even political issues in depth about the Christian or non-Christian greetings. But, I do believe that Happy Holidays is safer to say than any other saying.

All religions and or cultures have hoildays (that i know of anyway) and all relogions/cultures/races/celebrations should be respected.

If everyone would just grow up and be an adult and live by decent morals, no matter what is said, or printed, and take it as love and respect that they care enough to send a card to wish you and your family the best. Why is it that everyone cannot just respect all others for who they are and what they believe, and quit trying to be the dominate race/religion/culture and live in harmony so the world would be a better place?

Maybe next year the white house should forget sending cards to grumpy, and over opinionated people and send them to people who will appreciate the jesture!!

Happy Holidays to all!!!! (no matter who, what, when, where, or why you celebrate.)

Posted by: Christian Chappell at December 13, 2005 2:47 PM
Comment #102071

KCTim

“I guess one who isnt afraid of their religious beliefs and one who respects their right to religious freedom. Just because I dont believe in God doesnt mean they can’t.”

… In reference to an aetheist who says “Merry Christmas.”

I’m sorry, Tim, but I’m still not buying it. By saying “Merry Christmas” randomly, a person is making a huge assumption that those they address in face celebrate Christmas. In order to do that, the person saying this greeting usually identifies with the greeting, and is hence a Christian (devout or otherwise).

An aetheist does not believe in a god. Christmas is without question about the celebration over the birth of the Christian God’s one and only son… Jesus. By using the greeting “Merry Christmas,” you are essentially stating a belief in the origin of the term.

My sister is in fact an aetheist and you wouldn’t catch her dead saying “Merry Christmas.” Why? Not because she isn’t comfortable with her own beliefs, nor because she isn’t respectful of others. She wouldn’t say it because it would naturally, and deeply contradict her belief system and because she does respect that there are more religions out there than just Christianity.

How would you feel if you were Jewish and out shopping for someone you loved, and all you were ever bombarded with was Christmas songs, Christmas greetins, and Christmas idols? (Yes, all the “props” are a form of idolatry.) Wouldn’t you feel slightly slighted? Or how about if you were a Buddist, or a Muslim, or a Native American Indian? We could keep rattling off the various religions that our practiced in the U.S., but that would be pointless.

The point is, the founders of our country came here in search of religious freedom - AND - freedom from religious persecution…

I am not interested in living in a Christian state. But neither am I interested in living in a state of any religious foundation. I simply want to live where people can practice their faith freely and not worry about feeling like they are not a part of a bigger picture, or worse, that their faith is open to discrimination or persecution…

“Happy Holidays” includes good will toward everyone… And what could possibly be better than that?…. :)

Posted by: MJ Shaw at December 13, 2005 3:31 PM
Comment #102091

“An aetheist does not believe in a god”

OK, thanks for the clarification.
With that, I am an atheist.

“Christmas is without question about the celebration over the birth of the Christian God’s one and only son… Jesus”

Er, no. To me and my family, its about giving and getting gifts and spending time with relatives.

“By using the greeting “Merry Christmas,” you are essentially stating a belief in the origin of the term”

Wrong again. People really can just say Merry Christmas just to be friendly.

“How would you feel if you were Jewish and out shopping for someone you loved, and all you were ever bombarded with was Christmas songs, Christmas greetins, and Christmas idols? (Yes, all the “props” are a form of idolatry.) Wouldn’t you feel slightly slighted? Or how about if you were a Buddist, or a Muslim, or a Native American Indian?”

I’m a freaking atheist, a larger minority than those others you mentioned. Do I feel slighted? Hell no, I’m mature enough to know that the vast majority of people wishing me Merry Christmas are only wishing me the best and not trying to force me to convert and accept their God.

“I simply want to live where people can practice their faith freely and not worry about feeling like they are not a part of a bigger picture, or worse, that their faith is open to discrimination or persecution”

But yet you wish to take away their free speech and freedom of religion by limiting what they can say when it concerns religion.

““Happy Holidays” includes good will toward everyone… And what could possibly be better than that?”

From Adrienne: You know, the most idiotic thing about them raving over the “happy holidays” is the fact that the etymology of the word holiday comes from HOLY DAY. These people are ranting and raving about anyone who has the nerve to wish them a happy holy day!

Now, as an atheist, should I not be offended by somebody wishing me a Happy Holy Day?
Are you not worried about hurting my feelings or disrespecting my belief system?
If your so worried about the jews and muslims and the such, you have to be worried about the atheists also or be a hypocrite.

We are a Christian country. Everybody needs to grow up, put political agenda’s aside and just enjoy the special fellowship that only comes out this time of year.

Posted by: kctim at December 13, 2005 4:11 PM
Comment #102298

Amen, kctim, from an atheist!

Posted by: German at December 14, 2005 9:41 AM
Comment #102314
I know a few aetheists and couldn’t imagine them saying “Merry Christmas.”

You can take this as the third atheist who says Merry Christmas.

For example, my wife and I did our Christmas cards last night. When I signed the cards for friends or family that are Christian or come from a Christiam background, I wrote “Merry Christmas”. When I signed the cards for Jewish or Hindi friends, I wrote “Happy Holidays”. And, I made sure that we bought cards that did not have a specific reference to the Bible or Scripture.

I still celebrate Christmas because it’s more than just a Christian holiday in our society and because all of my family on both sides believes.

That’s how this atheist celebrates Christmas. Maybe I’m not a good example, though, since I’ll be playing handbells at my wife’s church on Christmas Eve (I like music, not the religion).

Posted by: LawnBoy at December 14, 2005 10:12 AM
Comment #102558

“We are a Christian country. Everybody needs to grow up, put political agenda’s aside and just enjoy the special fellowship that only comes out this time of year.” KCTim

We’re a Christian country? Really… So much for those minorities that you so fervantly claim to be one of…

I’m sorry, I do not know where you live, but I live in the United States of America. You know, the land of the free? You may have heard of it; the place where religion and state are supposed to remain unentangled… While there is no doubt (currently) that the dominant religion in America is Christianity, I do hope that this country will never become so purely homogenous in its faith. How boring and simply dreadful that would be… Or, how similar would that be to some countries that are inhabited by zealots that believe their faith is the only ‘true’ faith and wage war on other nations full of infidels?

As for the term holiday, while it might be derived from “Holy Day,” many of the world’s people use it in reference to time off, or vacation. It is defined as a day of rest without work, or a day set aside to mark an event: such as President’s Day, July 4th, Thanksgiving. You could argue that the term Christmas could be used casually as well, but it might be better to spend your breath on a more worthy line of reasoning.

“But yet you wish to take away their free speech and freedom of religion by limiting what they can say when it concerns religion.” KCTim

Nope. But nice attempt at trying to judge my personal philosophy… I have a tremendous amount of respect for freedom of speech. However, I respect freedom from religious domination even more. I also respect other people’s feelings and do my best to not make assumptions based upon their skin color, age, gender, etc., blah, blah, blah. Hence, “Happy Holidays” wishes peace, joy, and good tidings to ALL people, regardless of their faith, or, lack thereof.

Now, KCTim, make no mistake - I am not politically correct. I’m just weary of the direction that this country, my country, your country, has been taking over the last few years. Do you not find it curious that the Religious Right is more than willing exercise its collective muscle against the beliefs and freedoms of others (from abortion to gay rights, to burning Harry Potter books because the word ‘witch’ is used), but screams loudest when they are asked to be respectful toward these same others?

Where is the harm in wishing someone a “Happy Holiday”? Would it really be so hard for a Christian to simply be a good Christian and embrace their human sisters and brothers with an all encompassing greeting; as Christ would have liked them to? You know, love others… It was a kinda cool idea, even if it has gone astray over the last couple thousand years…

As for being an athiest… I’m going to return the favor you gave me and make an assumption of you based upon what I’ve read thus far…

You need to work on your non-faith. There was no Jesus Christ. There is no God, Buddah, Allah (sp?), etc. Hell, Satan’s going to be pissed to find out that he’s just a figment of the collective Christian imagination… Trust me dude. I don’t believe in it either, and that’s why I respect people of all faiths. No questions asked.

Anyhow, this is seriously growing redundant… Peace out and Happy Holidays to all…


Mj Shaw

Posted by: MJ Shaw at December 14, 2005 11:38 PM
Comment #102572

P.S. KCTim

I would never wish you, or anyone, a Happy Holy Day.

Happy Holiday… Yes… And thus I do.


:)

Posted by: MJ Shaw at December 15, 2005 1:14 AM
Comment #102699

MJ
Damn, you grow weary right when it starts getting good.

“Hence, “Happy Holidays” wishes peace, joy, and good tidings to ALL people, regardless of their faith, or, lack thereof.”

That is how the majority feels when they say merry xmas.

“I’m just weary of the direction that this country, my country, your country, has been taking over the last few years”

Glad you woke up. I have been feeling that way for the last 15 years.

Posted by: kctim at December 15, 2005 9:17 AM
Comment #102900

KCTim,

Weary? Nah. This is just getting pointless. You obviously can’t see that saying “Merry Christmas” to everyone and anyone is simply not appropriate considering its religiously specific meaning, and, with the diversity that exists in the United States. It saddens me to think that people could be so very stubborn as to not simply open their minds to a more amiable, broader reaching, and less religiously egocentric greeting.

Again, I ask you, what harm is there in embracing people of all potential religious and cultural celebrations that occur at this time of year? Would a refusal to be gracious be rooted in pride? Would it be pure stubborness? Personally, I don’t understand it.

As for “waking up”… Fifteen years, you say. That would mean that Dubya’s daddy was in office. Was it Dan Quayle that frightened you at that time, or Papa Bush? Or, were you so much of a Ronny fan that nothing has ever seemed right since he hit the brick wall of term limits? Whatever the case may be, I promise you that I too have been awake since those days and prior…

What disturbs me most over the last five years in particular is the sinister introduction of religion into politics. Yes, yes, there has never been a time when politics was as it should be… However, the blatant religious influence, the stepping over the proverbial line, has been dangerously foretelling of what could possibly be yet to come…

Oh, and speaking of fifteen years ago… It was about that long ago, if not a bit earlier, that I began hypothesizing that this country was in for another civil war, and that it would be based upon religion… Now, before you blow a gasket, civil war doesn’t necessarily have to involve fully armed battles, with battlefields and the whole kit-and-kaboodle as in the nineteenth century. It can take many forms; as well as those including bloodshed and death.

Anyhow, need to go. Got things to do.

Peace out again.

Posted by: MJ Shaw at December 15, 2005 5:45 PM
Comment #103171

MJ

Have enjoyed your post very much. GOOD JOB !

(NOTE: I understand that Pres. Carter has a new book out about just the subject you mentioned - It’s on my “Must Read” list.)

KC;

Sorry I have not responded, but I’ve been having computer difficulties.

I believe that the problem here is that many people have the concept here that “Christmas” is a ceccular (spell?) holiday. But, it is NOT ceccular, it is indeed. a “religious holiday”. I for one, want “Christmas” to be taken out of Christmas. Not because I do not believe in “Christ” but because I do. You may put forth a real good argument that Christmas with santa and gifts and a tree and turkey dinner with family has nothing to do with “Christ”. And, you and many others would be very right, indeed.

BUT, you are not the only person who lives on earth. There ARE others here. If you look at the oppressive history of Christianity (as well as many other religions), you will see a long history here, of a blend of political and religious power used for oppression, torture and even death wheeled upon people(s) and cultures. Marxism teaches us that, “Religion is the opate of the people”. This is not a new concept. It was origionated in the 3rd cemtury B.C. by Constitine who used Christianity to control the masses, thru the perfected blend of politics, religion and complete unrestrained government power.

The bottom line here is that we as a society no longer see Christmas as a religious holiday. We have been groomed to see it as a cecular holiday as Macy’s (department store of the 1930’s so creatively deamed. The Christian right, in seazing this oppurtunity to be so verbal over not disrespecting THEIR RIGHT, (by taking Christ out of Christmas), is falling into that age old trap of finding the perfect blend of POWER, RELIGION, AND POLOTICS, to control the “masses”.

It is for this very fact that I, as a “Christian” do object so streniously to saying “Merry Christmas”. It is not a religious issue. It is not a political statement. It is not even a condition of being respectful to others.

Yet, IT IS A COMBINATION OF ALL THREE ABOVE…

Religious:
It is using my free voice to say, “No, Christmas is NOT Christian.” (And, it isn’t).

Politics and Religion:
It is my Democratic voice to say, “No, saying Merry christmas is not politically correct.” (It disrespects others rights, politically and socially. It exhalts one religion over another, or even peoples of no religion. It also seperates people into different “faiths”, rather than to unite peoples of all faiths). Even aethists. The job of Government is to manage all it’s people with respect to everyone’s rights. It should be an equal playing field for all to play in. It is my Christian voice and right to say, “No, Christmas is NOT “Christian”. It has become a ceccular holiday that has been Bastardized into something just as “pagan” as the origional holiday as it was origionally stolen from. I do not want a state sanctioned religious holiday, simply because - I AM A PERSON OF FAITH.

Power:
It is my human voice that I use to say, “No! I object. I do not want my Government to use politics and religion to obtain power over the masses. I am very sick to death of the “Morality Police”, trying to run our society to their own benifit and to amass their own power structure. I do not want Gays to be discriminated against because of the twisted ideas of the “Morality Police”. I do not want to limit a womans medical rights of choice because of the warped concepts held only by the most religiously extreme of our society. I do not want “God” forced into our schools, public or community events, on our money, or as a cornerstone on our public buildings. That’s not because I am against faith. It’s because my faith — IS SACRED. It’s also personal,,,just to me,,,the right I have as an American, to have “FAITH”, (or not,,,,my choice)

Posted by: Playnice at December 16, 2005 12:21 PM
Comment #104144

“Again, I ask you, what harm is there in embracing people of all potential religious and cultural celebrations that occur at this time of year?”

Again, there is no harm whatsoever in doing that. I am simply saying that, to most Americans, merry christmas is nothing more than a greeting.
Who is more to blame? The person who says merry christmas or the person who is so immature that he allows those simple words bother him?

“Whatever the case may be, I promise you that I too have been awake since those days and prior…”

I was a senior in high school during Reagan. Boobs and beer, not politics.
I started paying attention around 1990, it was at this time that I started noticing how politicians were not for the people, but for their party.

“However, the blatant religious influence, the stepping over the proverbial line, has been dangerously foretelling of what could possibly be yet to come…”

Funny how, during the 90s, the people were worried about the socialist agenda of the govt, now its religion.

“Now, before you blow a gasket, civil war doesn’t necessarily have to involve fully armed battles, with battlefields and the whole kit-and-kaboodle as in the nineteenth century”

Blow a gasket? I believe that is the only way that our country will get back to being a Republic and not a democracy.
Freedom of religion is not what will bring it about though. Total govt control over our lives will occur and the people will revolt. We are more than half-way there.

Blaming religion is an excuse and does nothing but ignore the real problem.

Posted by: kctim at December 19, 2005 10:16 AM
Comment #104188

“It is using my free voice to say, “No, Christmas is NOT Christian.” (And, it isn’t)”

First, please tell the left this so that others can start saying Merry Christmas again without fear of being ridiculed or sued.
Second, why should I be limited to where I may use my free voice?

“It is my Democratic voice to say, “No, saying Merry christmas is not politically correct.” (It disrespects others rights, politically and socially”

Most people have better things to worry about than being politically correct.
If merry christmas offends you, grow up. Why people think its ok to take away somebodys rights because someone else MAY be offended is silly.

“I do not want my Government to use politics and religion to obtain power over the masses.”

No, you worry about religion and politics which is not yours obtaining power.
If not, then you saw clinton as un-American also, and I apologize for assuming.

“I am very sick to death of the “Morality Police”, trying to run our society to their own benifit and to amass their own power structure”

I am too. I think it is wrong that certain groups try and tell others they cant smoke and punish them with higher taxes. I think it is wrong that some people think they know better than me when it comes to my money. I think it is wrong when somebody tells me my 2nd Amendment rights dont exist.
I think its wrong that I am forced to support lazy people because somebody elses morals and beliefs say I must. Welfare and other such social programs are nothing but the morals and beliefs of other people which are imposed on me.

“I do not want Gays to be discriminated against because of the twisted ideas of the “Morality Police””

So, as long as they believe as you, all is ok. Right?
They must accept your views of gays rights but you dont have to accept their right to say merry christmas.

Maybe instead of worrying about what the otherside is doing all the time, people should worry about what they themselves are doing.

Posted by: kctim at December 19, 2005 11:05 AM
Comment #104715

“Who is more to blame? The person who says merry christmas or the person who is so immature that he allows those simple words bother him?” — KCTim

That’s a big assumption, Tim, to label someone as immature because they are more comfortable with a all-embracing greeting, rather than a religiously specific one.

Tim, I was raised Roman Catholic in the northeast. My parents were not devout, and their motivation for having us reared in the faith had more to do with pleasing family than anything else. They were justified and I have no issues with what they did and why.

However, at the dawn of my “intellectual awareness” (around 13 y.o.) it occured to me how narrow-minded my religion was. They told me that humans were the only creatures on Earth that had a soul and feelings. They claimed that mankind was created in the image of God. They said that Christianity was the only true religion and those who did not accept it and the Christian God were doomed to spend eternity in Hell… Needless to say, even at the tender age of thirteen, I knew this was nothing more than propaganda perpetuated over nearly two thousand years.

A. I am science and nature-minded. No, I am not a tree-hugger. However, I am astute enough to realize that everything in the natural world is in balance and harmony with everything else around it. All things on this planet serve a purpose… But there is one exception: mankind. We are the only thing that is destructive and that takes more than it gives back. Animals do think, they do feel, and they too are “God’s creations.” To think them inferior to humans is to make a grave error in the overall scheme of survival.

B. I embrace all people, of all faiths, as my kin by species. What I perceive as “God” does not discriminate or hate based upon a person’s faith or cultural truths… When I realized at thirteen that my religion was saying all people not Christian would go to Hell if they didn’t “accept Jesus Christ as their saviour” I balked at that idea; as anyone with a sound, reasonable sense of humanity would.

C. And as far as humans being fashioned in the likeness of God, well, I just find that disturbingly egocentric and self-serving.

Tim, I do not have a problem with people practicing the faith of their choice; be it Christian or whatever else you could mention. I believe faith to be a deeply personal matter, and because of that, one person’s faith should not intrude upon another’s.

Trust me, when someone wishes me a “Merry Christmas” I do not lash out at them; I merely reply “Happy Holidays to you too.” I’ve said this for almost twenty years, at the very least. My motivation was not to be politically correct (remember, I mentioned that I am far from it), but to approach the world at large being true to how I felt.

To be one hundred percent honest, I probably wouldn’t have ever began saying “Happy Holidays” if the reality of Christianity’s past weren’t what it is, or I had never become aware of it. By this I mean to say that Christianity has done a great deal of damage to mankind over its two thousand year history. It has committed horrible attrocities in the name of God. It has persecuted, executed, and destroyed lives, simply because it had the might to do so. Somehow, I find it horribly ironic that they could even possibly believe their faith is under attack. It truly makes me want to laugh in their collective face. Imagine, someone believing they’ve been “wronged” because they’re being asked to be more sensitive to others, when their history is chock full of “wronging” others…

Peace to you, Tim, and a very Merry Christmas…

Somehow I feel comfortable saying it to you, because I’m pretty certain you will not be offended. You see, I know you say you’re an atheist, but I am strongly inclined to disagree. Your passion to adhere to the innocent, harmless, and generally acceptable holiday greeting that is “Merry Christmas” belies a much stronger devotion to a possible god than you might be willing to admit.

Perhaps you should rethink your denial of the existence of at least some sort of deity…

:)

Posted by: MJ Shaw at December 20, 2005 6:19 AM
Comment #106058


MJ: I’d like to say that I’ve read your post and I agree with every word you said. I am also impressed with how eloquently you said it. BRAVO!

KC: I’ve only been saying, “Happy Holidays” instead of, “Merry Christmas” this year. Even though I do not celebrate Christmas (for religious reasons) I’ve been saying Merry Christmas all my life. This year I’ve only had one person who was offended at my, “Happy Holidays” remark. He promptly dressed me down and informed me that it was Christmas because of the birth of Christ “our LORD”. I just smiled and said to myself, “Well for YOU, maybe”. (I might have also said to myself, “Heathen”, but I don’t remember).

So, what I have personally found in my experience is that the only people that are offended by saying ( or by not saying), one greeting as preference over another ,,,, is the “Christian” Right wing” of the Republican Party. THEY are offended if you do NOT wish THEM, “A Very Merry Christmas”. Saying to me Merry Christmas does not offend me, personally. But, I would rather say and be judged FOR saying Happy Holidays. It’s my personal choice. Someone could even say to me Happy Honakka, and that would not offend me either. What another persons faith, religion (or lack of religion, is for that matter), is of no personal interest to me what so ever. I respect everyone for saying anything to me (to wish me well). However, one thing is very clear.

We all make assumptions about people as to how they act, what they say. and as to how they interact with you/me. So, please forgive me (and others - like me) who will honestly jump to the assumption - with your “Merry Christmas” that you are part of a certain religion, (even maybe a part of a certain political party, with a certain agenda). I know that these assumptions may be wrong, but the word “Christmas/Christian”, does have some baggage, you must admit. If you believe, and celebrate Christmas, as a secular/religious holiday, FINE. I/others should not have a problem with that. Just please, do not be offended when we jump to ironious assumptions of where you are coming from.

I will continue to say, “Happy Holidays”. It is non-religiously specific. It is respectful to people of all faiths/or not. And I, for one, desire very much to see the religious claw removed from our politics and public life. Happy Holidays/Merry Christmas, is however a red herring. Along with other red herrings such as Gay Marriage, Abortion, the War in Iraq, and various other sexual scandals and innuendoes. I voted Republican until 1992. I have voted Democrat ever since. I have watched the Republican Party become meaner, less caring and less responsible to the public trust, public safety, and the public’s welfare, since 1980. All the while they have touted and preached that THEY are the party who wants to “get government out of our lives” and that THEY are the party of “family values” and moral ethics. Lets look at how they have gotten “government” out of our lives, and how they represent family values and public morality.

In the 80’s dozens of mental health institutions were closed and mentally ill patients flooded into the jails, hospitals and onto the street as “the homeless”, with little or not health care benefits or support. The savings and loan scandal stripped many seniors of their life’s savings. (Well at least they had S.S. it seams to be up for grabs now). Reagan, who later developed Alzheimer’s, refused funding for a comprehensive Alzheimer’s bill. Aids, a public health crisis was virtually ignored and blamed on “those fags”. (So, it’s O.K. to let them suffer and die on religious and moral principals). Daddy Bush went into Kuwait just weeks after his representative virtually gave Salaam the green light. Then when he got to the Iraqi border he stopped and ran home. (We at least had Bi-lateral support THEN). Florida had Hurricane Andrew. This was “writing on the wall” and a prelude to what was to come, with the abandonment of New Orleans, this year. FEMA, was never broken, it’s only broken awaiting an “executive order” to act. (Maybe that’s because it’s a Government Program, put in place to help aid and protect American Citizens.). Public Trust and safety is the Governments responsibility. And, this current attitude of Republicans of “they were told to get out and if they can’t get out so what? It’s not the governments job to take care of them”.

Yes,,,,Yes it is! This is our government. Our tax money. Our elected officials. The government is supposed to be in charge of “the public trust”. The government is there to protect peoples rights, their safety, it’s there as a safety net (we’re paying for it), to help aid and protect people in need (when the need is greater than what any state can provide on it’s own). But; no, we can have little old ladies deprived of their nail files and let illegal alien’s into this country to take American jobs, and we can let that pass as “Homeland Security”. We can provide for mega faith-based organizations that give money’s - not to the poor and needy, but to elect politicians in Texas and push forth an agenda for “family based values” at the poles. We don’t have to help the poor and disabled because they are unworthy of our support and their plight is just “God’s punishment”. (The “Aids” mentality - morality revived). We can rave and rant about Clinton’s zipper, but God help anyone who would object to our presents in Iraq, and think of these people as anything but Un-Patriotic, Un-American and against our troops. We buy the argument that Katrina was a natural disaster. Never mind the fact that the U.S. Government stopped paying for the levy work in 2003, even dispite the pleas from the Army Corps of Engineers, and those stupid of us to still believe in Global Warming. We forget about Enron. The company who raped it’s customers, employees, and investors with almost perfect impunity. We look the other way when the gas companies gouge us of $3 per gallon at the pumps. And, we don’t care about the back-room deals in Chaney’s office. Every time things get rough we can go to a “yellow” or a “red” or “amber” alert, or we can scream about Fags or Abortion or Bill’s Zipper. We can start a divisive fight over the rights and protections of “Christmas”, and we can scream about unwed mother’s having abortions on our dime.

Yes, the “Morality Police” are alive and well. Especially here in WA state. We just passed a No Smoking in public ban. You must no longer smoke in bars, restaurants or bingo halls. Also, you must be 25 feet from any business’s door or window. Also, now we in WA State no longer need to rely on going to the poles to vote. We now will all vote from home with a mail in ballot. Now, we don’t even have to be bothered with “Pole Fraud” anymore, or pesky chads. Nor, will we be be bothered with those pesky poling #’s and meaningless surveys. We can all take pride in the fact that the “Morality Police” NOW have a handle on everything. Even OUR voice.

Well, you may like red herring for lunch,
I find it unpalatable.
Happy—-Whatever the Heck you want it to be.
Just please stop buying and eating Herring.
(‘cause while your engaged in eating fish, someone in the White House is eating your steak).



Posted by: Playnice at December 22, 2005 1:27 PM
Comment #199140

Merry Christmas and get a life.

Posted by: tom atkins at December 13, 2006 8:08 PM
Comment #266208

I hate that everyone becomes bitches about these sort of things. Merry Christmas to Christians, Happy Holidays to everyone else, and to those who don’t believe in a “higher power”… FUCK YOU!

Posted by: Billy at October 8, 2008 4:52 PM
Comment #271313

I don’t belong to any religion but respect all peoples beliefs along as they don’t push theirs on me. To say your offended by a greeting or well wishes is what is wrong with this country and the world. Whats wrong with just saying “Thank you for thinking of me”. “What a thoughtful card.” ” What a tragedy that we are even having this conversation…. Its the news that is propagating this crap and it is crap and isn’t news.

Posted by: shannon at December 1, 2008 9:39 PM
Comment #276669

Its like with this secular PC nonsense i mean where we once called it CHRISTMAS VACATION its now called WINTER VACATION where we once called it EASTER VACATION we now call it SPRING BREAK or what about the terms BC amd AD its now called BEFORE COMMON ERA(BCE)and COMMON ERA(CE)are they so afraid of offening the secular atheists or the left-wing ACLU> frankly we can do without the ACLU and the PC silliness

Posted by: Flu-Bird at March 3, 2009 3:41 PM
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