Democrats & Liberals: Archives

I agee with you on this point. I just hope, that this thing that Bush is purposing don’t turn it to some kind of money pit like the so called drug war.

Paul:

I do not think there is much debate about the fact there are 6 million people living in the United States, more or less, who are illegally here who are also working. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?r108:S03MY4-0018:

As of last month we only have 7,433,000 unemployed on our whole country. How are you going to replace these workers? In my area, who is going to pick the fruit??

Craig

In other words, to keep the undocumented out let’s encourage them to come in with a “temporary worker program.”

I’d rather see them come in with some sort of documentation than none at all.

CLOSE THE BORDER - We do not need all the stuff Bush is recommending. All we need do is go after employers who hire undocumented immigrants. Business people who employ the undocumented would pay a stiff fine for each undocumented employee. With no jobs to lure them across the border, the poor of Mexico and South America will not come

I’m with you on this. Particularly fining those that knowingly hires illegals. I’d go one farther and say if they keep doing it take there business license away. Maybe even a term in prison.

INCREASE THE MINIMUM WAGE - Bush says we need immigrants to do the jobs that Americans refuse to take. The only reason Americans refuse these jobs is because the pay is tiny and working conditions are horrible. Increase the minimum wage and make sure agricultural, restaurant and other workers receive this minimum and the jobs will be taken by Americans.

I wouldn’t count on raising the minium wage getting American workers to do these jobs. Most of them are already minium wage. That’s why American workers won’t take them.
All raising the minium wage will do is put more people in the poverty range. While there are employeers that will give their employees that are making more than minium wage a raise to keep them above it. There are also a lot that won’t.
Also riasing the minium wage will increase cost for ALL employeers and in turn will mean higher prices. Are you willing to pay more while not getting a raise?

Good post, Paul. I totally agree.

I’ve seen public opinion polls in the high seventies which favor tough immigration enforcement, but this is yet another disconnect between what people say they want and what they would want if they had to face the consequences of their actions.

The fact is that the Hispanic population—even the legal Hispanic population—is growing by leaps and bounds, and neither the Democrats or Republicans are going to risk pissing off such a large group of voters, espcially one which makes the difference in so many closely contested swing states.

I agree with Paul (for a change) about the nefarious role of corporations in this problem, but the general public shares much of the responsibility. There is vague public discontent about our porous borders, but also a very high demand for the cheap goods and services which illegal workers make possible.

What is the problem with illegals? I’ve read comments about closing borders and fining employers, but exactly what are they doing to YOU.

We should leave all rulings on crossing these borders to those whose families have been here since 1491 (Navajos, Cherokees, Paiutes, Mohawks, etc.)

You’re talking about Mexicans; well they’re half Indian. I think they have more natural right to be here than most of the posters.

Besides, this is a non-issue to take “The Lies That Started the War” out of the headlines.

You’re talking about Mexicans; well they’re half Indian. I think they have more natural right to be here than most of the posters.

They may be Indians but they’re not US citizens. That means they have no right to decide AHYTHING that concerns this country.

Americans are lazy.

I’ll believe it when I see it.

I don’t believe Bush or politicians are serious about border security. 1000 Border control is a farce. The big joke is that they won’t also prosecute those that illegally employ illegal aliens.

Bush has the audacity and gall to call the Minute Men vigilantes.

All the borders can be secured. We have about 9000 miles of land borders to the north and south. Stations placed every 10 miles would be 900 stations. 1 soldier per mile would be 10 soldiers per station (and 1 soldier per mile).

The U.S. has 2.6 million active duty military, guard, and reserves. 9000 troops (less than 1% of 0.3% our 2.6 million active military, guard, and reserves) wouldn’t even cost much, because it would merely be a better use of resources we already have.

A Dallas policemen was shot and killed by a Mexican illegal alien last week.
That is a crime that should not have ever happened.

If voters really want border patrol, and responsible and accountable government, they will need to repeat what they did in 1994, 1976, and 1952. Vote out all incumbents. That’s the only thing that gets the attention of the complacent incumbents who currently enjoy a 95% re-election rate. That’s why they’re fat and happy, and ignore the nations problems.

Don’t worry, guys. I just saw a Republican Congressman cry on TV. No doubt we will be seeing more Republicans crying in the near future.

It’s stunning how doctrinaire you kids can be. Bush’s proposal is actually quite progressive, but you are so reflexively anti-Bush you can’t see it.

Paul, both of your prescriptions are both wildly unfeasible and extremely conservative. We would need to exand law enforcement many times over to police every business in the land, and would have to keep them from other duties. Moreover, there isn’t a major city in the country whose restaurant kitchens are filled with illegal immigrants. New York’s reataurant industry would collapse tomorrow without the cheap labor.

On the whole, our economy benefits from cheap labor (it helps keep our labor intensive industries competitive), it benefits the laborers (they earn a better wage than in their home countries) and it benegits their native countries as the send their wages back to their families.

Frankly, Bush’s proposal is quite reasonable and realistic and he has courage to raise it in a border region. It would be nice if say a Democrat somewhere in this country actually showed some leadership.

Boojum,
Although you may bring up a few good points that may of worked back in the 60’s & 70’s to get the Labor Unions in this country to back down. However, in today’s economy thanks to our current Establishment the Individual no longer has the ability to bargain for a better wage.

Don’t like the pay you are getting than Mr. Corporation will either hire an Illegal Alien or Outsource your job. Oh, yes the politician will say that they will help us, but even they must side with the money. It’s a fact of life like it or not. No, President Bush’s plan or even Paul’s ideas do not capture the tip of the problem that securing our borders will bring.

Building a fence may limit how people enter the country. Creating a Guest Workers program that does not include a “Livable Wage” clause in it is taken a defeatism status that states “We the People†are not the Market. Sorry, that’s Un-American. Than there are the questions of what to do with the 8-10 million illegal aliens, the Corporations that hire them, and of course legal immigration. What about smuggling? How will that be effected and what new problems will it cause? Local communities and economies will surely feel the effects of such actions as higher prices (which will happen anyway) will lower the Living Standard for all, but a few. From New York to LA, many labor intense jobs will be lost and Mom & Pop Businesses will be closed. Americans will lose more jobs to outsourcing and our whole economy will fall flat on its face. At least that is what the Democratic and Republican spin masters would like us to believe.

Now, lets us flip President Reagan’s “Trickle Down Economics Theory†over now that we know it works and use the same forward thinking to raise our Labor Wages by 500 times over the next 20-30 years while Management accepts the lean part of the meal for a while. Sound strange, don’t bet on it. Henry Ford and other American Businessmen recognized this fact at the turn of the last Century and we have the books to see how much prosperity that has brought us. Than we shut down the borders, remove all illegal aliens and fine their employers a reasonable amount ( one penny before bankruptcy) for breaking the law. Only at this point can America seriously consider raising the legal immigration limits.

Although this idea would mean that our society begin to redefine and reshape our current workforce model, higher wages can and should be given for changes such as lawn maintenance to lawn engineering. With fresh water becoming a problem, the need for even the person cutting the grass and trimming the weeds to have a working knowledge on how to keep a yard green with the minimal amount of water will become important. Dish Washers and Restaurant Workers need to be changed to Nutritional Specialists and be taught not just how to fix what they are serving, but what and why it is good for the consumer. Peanut and other serious food problems people have and the growing number of Americans being effected by them can be avoided. Than your waitress will not only tell you what the specials are , but just how good the meal you selected is for your personal diet. At that time maybe a $1,000.00 Omelet might be worth eating.

Border Security may be the first step in solving this long standing problem (over 20 years); however, to stop short of fixing the problems that false lower wages have caused for our economy and society as proposed by President Bush and others will not make a dent in the problems we face as a Nation and Global Leader.

Look people, he (Bush)gave two speeches about immigration. Mission accomlished what more do you expect from him.
It’s just like New Orleans and Iraq. nuff said

Does anyone still use the whole “raising minimum wage will automatically reduce jobs” argument other than Microeconomics professors? This has never happened in real life because the country does not exist in a “vacuum.” Also, why do these same people turn around and say that people stay on welfare because they won’t take jobs if the benefits are too low?

I understand that whenever Republicans contradict themselves they claim that Democrats are hypocrites, but is it really that simple? Do Republicans intentionally contradict themselves solely to prove that Democrats are hypocrites? Since Republicans pride themselves in the combination of their own ignorance with the inability to grasp anything resembling a concept, I won’t go into the reasons why it isn’t that simple, but I’ll just point to 1996. Okay, bring on the ad hominem attacks.

Did Bush not try to do something about immigration before going into iraq. I believe it was shot down.

boojum, re Democratic leadership: the Republicans are so bereft of ideas that they cobble onto and use every plan the Democrats have and call it their own, so sharing is not the thing to do now.

The real issue here is the shameful abuse of poor uneducated people by both Mexico and the United States. This abuse is allowed and encouraged by both countries and by the people themselves because of greed and lack of integrity.

The people of Mexico need to take a stand against the practices of their government that keep them in such poverty and abuse rather than running to another country. The people of the United States need to take a stand against our government for allowing American companies their abuses to Mexico that help to keep Mexicans in poverty, and to its wrong to the American people by overwhelming the resources of this country by the numbers and problems of the illegal aliens.

It does not matter now whether illegals are given amnesty because our country has been irreparably harmed from the moment the border is crossed illegally to every act of illegal behavior in this country on both sides. We are no longer the America we once were. Mexico has been encouraged to concentrate it’s wealth to the few and to continue to refuse help to their poor.

In the name of greed, do not look at the economics of this problem, look instead at the damage in the decades to come for our purposeful disintegration of the moral, ethical and spiritual values of the ordinary citizens of both Mexico and America. These are the people who will ultimately determine the fate of our countries, and right now their experiences and subsequent values do not predict a good outcome.

Bush has always tried to avoid Border issues, he did want to upset the Mexicans that voted for him.
Now thats a joke

Knowing your first sentence is without fact, a total liberal lie, it negates your entire ramblings.

Isn’t it odd that the party that ordinarily prides itself on helping the poor is willing to advocate a complete elimination of one avenue of improvement?

Immigration into the U.S. is more American than any “living wage” proposal. Shouldn’t the question be reframed from protecting the border to figuring out how to increase the amount of immigrants legally allowed into the county so that it matches demand on both sides?

Illegals come to this country because the rightly perceive opportunity, right? If so, that implies a labor market demand, right? Bring the quotas into line with the supply and demand or eliminate them altogether and allow the market forces to sort it out, and you eliminate many of the problems cited in this board, don’t you?

The immigrants will be guaranteed minimum wage as a legal immigrant. They will be screened to sort out the criminals from the honest citizens. The need to protect the border changes from protection from the hungry, and the weak, to the defending against the entry of criminals and narcotics.

Bush is right to give border patrol new equipment to help secure border. But giving visa’s to immigrants is stupid it will not work they will get in USA and disapear. The easy way to beat the fence.

The US border cuts through an area that was a part of mexico and as such it inherited an important component, its inhabitants. Until 1968, US citizens of Mexican descent, like African Americans, did not enjoy the civil liberties that most of your relatives took for granted and strongly guarded against anyone who did not already belong to “the club”, so to speak. This exclusion pushed Hispanic Americans to Mexico for their culture and this resulted in continued cross border marriages. The result is a condition in which many folks of Hispanic descent have relatives in Mexico and vice versa. So, you betcha, anyone attempting to demonize this issue will have a hard time earning Hispanic votes in California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. By the way, these states understandably count with Hispanic populations that makes them the majority and as such, a force to be reckoned with. All of you guys who are opposed to illigal immigration tend to be the same folks who would have been confortable in “the club” of years past and it is thinly veiled. A forced deportation of millions of human beings will make us look like a bunch of Nazis and it will provide a labor vacuum that will produce a catastrophic inflationary pressure an wages. Forget minimum wages. You will not find a dishwasher willing to get his hands wet for less than $14/Hour. I wonder what that will do to the average price of a meal at your favorite restaurant? How about $20/hour for an entry-level contruction worker? And the price of a home under these happy conditions? It’s all out of your pocket. I’m telling you, It’s “The club” in you talking, nothing else.