November 22, 2005
Guantanamo: I Laughed, Then Cried
I was reading the newspaper when I came across the headline, “Guantanamo Bay Prisoner Sues U.S. to Get a Bible.” I laughed so hard while reading this article because it seemed so ridiculous that a prisoner would have to sue our government in order to be able to read the Bible. Our “moral values” government told the prisoner that the Bible might “incite” him. However, when I realized how insane our policies have become and that we are becoming the laughingstock of the world, it made me sick.
Saifullah Paracha was designated an enemy combatant and imprisoned in Guantanamo Bay. The government says he is a terrorist; he says he is not. At any rate, every detainee is entitled to a copy of the Koran. This he got.
His lawyer, Gaillard T. Hunt, met with his client in September and found out that Paracha had requested a Bible. Hunt said:
"From my general knowledge, I knew that the Bible (the Old and New Testaments) is accepted in Islam as one of their holy texts, so I intepreted this as a religious request."
So, Hunt purchased a Bible, and sent it, together with Shakespeare's Hamlet and Julius Caesar, to the prison, asking that they be delivered to Paracha. When Hunt returned in October he found that neither the Shakespeare volumes nor the Bible were given to the prisoner.
OK, Shakespeare is terrible. But the Bible? Our extreme right and righteous government did not want a prisoner to have a Bible? How ridiculous can things get?
So Paracha sued the government - in order to get a copy of the Bible! Hilarious!
The government responded that certain books were kept from prisoners because they could "incite" them. By this time I was in stitches. The Bible will "incite" the prisoner? How? To do what?
I laughed, laughed and laughed......until I realized how this administration is asphyxiating our system of justice. Then I cried.
Interesting, Paul, that you think that prisoners in Guantanomo Bay should have more rights than the citizens of Muslim countries.
Posted by: sanger at November 22, 2005 05:52 PMSanger:
Why drag in Muslim countries?
We should want our justice system to provide justice to everyone. You say these are terrorists. And I say we do not know this until it is proven. This is why we have a legal system. With our present laws, Bush can say that you are an enemy combatant, and bingo, your rights have disappeared.
Posted by: Paul Siegel at November 22, 2005 06:08 PMOK, Shakespeare is terrible.
Paul! Why do you hate Ameri Shakespeare!?
8-)
Sanger,
Interesting, Paul, that you think that prisoners in Guantanomo Bay should have more rights than the citizens of Muslim countries.
The same way you seem to think citizens of Muslim countries should have more democracy, maybe?
Aka higher standards & more freedom for E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E?
Your frenchly,
Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at November 22, 2005 06:19 PMI agree with you Paul its a laugh, but the biggest laugh is the way the war is conducted. Nobody wants to play by the rulls so it looks like they are made up as the war continues.I cannot see where either side is winning.
A prisoner in Guantanomo does not the right to start demanding reading material or anything else of his captors, though I’m sure that plenty of American liberals will say he’s being “tortured” if he doesn’t get a library card, an I-Pod and an Xbox.
But that’s right, Philippe. Democracy for the Muslims as well as everybody else. Higher standards and more freedom—absolutley. That’s because in America we believe in democracy and don’t think that Muslims should be herded into slums and ghettos and treated like human garbage (as you and I both know is done very “frenchly” indeed).
Posted by: sanger at November 22, 2005 06:39 PMWe should give them holy books in braile. It was those books that got ‘em into the predicament they’re in now, right? This holybook nonsense is too much. Flushed it down the toilet who cares.
I think there’s a much more constitional gravity to all this as an American action than them reading Mohammad’s plunderous murderous exploits and religious hadiths(edicts). I can’t feel pitty on the religious books basis it’s baloney!
Those are the books that inspire the suicide bombers who strap themselves with pipebombs and shrapnel. There is little benevolence in Islam that is just a modern invention in contrast to western civilizations. The benevolent Islamist (different from Muslim which is a bit more sociological a term)is for the most part a chimera. Read the Quran sometime or research Muhammad’s actual history and you’ll find a real lack of benevolence in it’s pages.
If someone there were a follower of Shinrikio or Charles Manson would they get their holy books?
Posted by: Novenge at November 22, 2005 06:57 PMI really don’t see the relevance. As far as Republicans are concerned, the Guantanamo Detainees might as well be livestock. Cows are treated better than they.
Posted by: Aldous at November 22, 2005 07:55 PMNo one is winning the way the GAMES are being played out. I am looking around and trying my best to find the Country, I once knew. Like you said there is no rules. Yet they are quick to jump up and demand a lot. Stay the coarse, well what is the course. They can not even tell us the coarse. Someone offers one, so they try to make a mockery of this War Veteran that is so highly Respected. Bush and his people don’t even have the Respect that Mr Murtha is due. Yet they try and pull this stunt last Friday, I honestly hope that most the Americans can see what it was.
God Bless Our Nation
God Bless Our Troops
Sanger,
But that’s right, Philippe. Democracy for the Muslims as well as everybody else. Higher standards and more freedom—absolutley. That’s because in America we believe in democracy and don’t think that Muslims should be herded into slums and ghettos and treated like human garbage (as you and I both know is done very “frenchly” indeed).
At least we don’t outsourced them hypocritally :-p
Although, comparing the way we (France) treated our immigrants with the way you treat your “illegal” combattants at Guantanamo Bay show a big lack of mesure…
I too am concern and have cried about detainee’s who desparately petetion our government for Bibles to read but have been denied by our government. Unfortunately the detainee’s to which I speak are our children, detained in public schools away from religious materials of their choice.
And I will shed a thousand tears over the way we mistreat our own children before I will begin to be concerned over a suspected terrorist! Liberals, where are your priorities?
Posted by: Paul at November 22, 2005 09:53 PMPAUL,
Yes that’s what kids at that age really want, not videogames but bibles. Yes they cry about it daily as to why they can’t get prehistoric fairytales of mysterymen who part waters and turn water into alcoholic beverages. Yes they are really missing out. And two: Was there ever a time when they were presented with the bible in public schools? Ever? because although my knowledge of this only goes back to the mid seventies did the public school ever give kids bibles? I’ll look it up but I’m quite sure they didn’t. And yes CCD still exists as does Sunday School.
Posted by: Novenge at November 22, 2005 10:09 PMPhillipe, since the US gets so much criticism for not only fighting these individuals but detaining them, perhaps we could come to an agreement that our critics would accept?
What if we were to realease everyone in Guantanomo Bay on one condition: that they be allowed to immigrate and live in France. Why not integrate them into French society in the same way so many other Muslims have been intigrated?
All we would ask in return for this incredible gift of giving France a chance to demonstrate its superior respect for human rights is that they ensure these individuals never leave France. This should be something we could all agree on.
Posted by: sanger at November 22, 2005 10:42 PMElectronic ink is plentiful but there isn’t enough of it to fully answer all of the stupidity found here.
At least Paul acknowledges that the detainees at Gitmo are “suspected terrorists” but then he doesn’t care. He calls himself an American - apparently a Christian even - and - I am sure that he is good American and a good Christian - but how in God’s name can good Americans and Christians not care that human beings were rounded in Afganistan, when our government paid starving shepherders bounties to round up anything that walked upright - then labeled as terrorists with no proof - no due process - then their human rights were violated - and then they were tortured (there is overwhelming evidence that torture has been wide spread) - all of this in spite of the fact that many perhaps most of them are completely innocent - not even baby wanna be terrorists. Who gives a rats poop shoot about Islam or Muslem countries and how bad they are - this is not about them - this is about us - how can good Christian Americans like Paul not care about gitmo - how can we even talk to people like Paul. Of course we have to detain these people until we determine their actual guilt or innocence - and of course we have to take appropriate action against the actual terrorist - but we don’t have torture anybody - and we don’t have to violate people’s human rights and we can grant some form of due process - because that is what we do - we are Americans - we are better than that - aren’t we - for God’s sake? But in Paul’s myopic world children with plenty of access to Bibles at home are being victimized worse because they are not given tax payer funded Bibles in taxpayer funded public schools - they are being victimized worse than completely innocent human beings who were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, who have been tortured - denied due process - and have had their human rights violated by and in the name of America - God help us - how can you talk to people like that?
Posted by: Ray G. at November 22, 2005 11:16 PMRay, I might agree with some of your points if it wasn’t for their very naive acceptance of the idea that there is “widespread torture” taking place.
Where do these allegations of torture come from? Mostly from the lawyers of detainees or from critics of the war. That so many detainees even have lawyers is remarkable—how many German POWs were given lawyers paid for by the US goverment in WWII? And we all know that in the Al Qaida training manual, it expressly advises terrorist operatives to claim that they’ve been “tortured” if they’re captured.
The idea of “due process” is an interesting one, and there are in fact a number of processes in place—evidenced by the fact that many people have been released from Gitmo (and elswhere) after being taken into custody. Should there be more due process in place? I agree with you that there should be, but this would be going far beyond what every nation has historically done in wartime. A Japanese soldier captured in World War II, for example, was not given a lawyer or a hearing or access to the courts. He was simply held until hostilities stopped—and nobody knew when he was interred if that would be in six months, a year, ten years or twenty years.
But if we simply followed the Geneva Conventions, we’d execute on the spot anybody we captured fighting out of uniform. We don’t do that, however, though if we did we’d be spared all this speculation and propoganda about unproven accounts of “torture.”
Posted by: sanger at November 22, 2005 11:41 PMsanger:
ALL the prisoners released from Gitmo claimed they were tortured. While it may be true that the GOP supports torture, the rest of us do not.
Posted by: Aldous at November 23, 2005 12:16 AMSanger,
Phillipe, since the US gets so much criticism for not only fighting these individuals but detaining them, perhaps we could come to an agreement that our critics would accept?
I’m not critical about US fighting back terrorism but about the *way* it does it. Aka placing itself above the laws, their own and the international laws they once ratified. I’m worrying that the moral bankruptcy it show is the worst thing to help couter-terrorism actions worldwide. You’re not the only country fighting islamist terrorism, some of us did it since a few decades already, you know…
Once an Airbus plane hijackers was most probably targeting Tour Eiffel but thanks they didn’t have enough fuel for that. That was in… late 1994. During 1995 summer several bombs exploded in Paris… Except for Israel, France is most probably the most experienced western country on djihad terrorism. Strangefully, US dislike french official opinions on counter-terrorism. Note the “official” here, because behind it’s well-known that our counter-terrorism agencies are greatly appreciated over atlantic…
Anyway, let’s go back to easy flaming.
What if we were to realease everyone in Guantanomo Bay on one condition: that they be allowed to immigrate and live in France. Why not integrate them into French society in the same way so many other Muslims have been intigrated?All we would ask in return for this incredible gift of giving France a chance to demonstrate its superior respect for human rights is that they ensure these individuals never leave France. This should be something we could all agree on.
Nice trick, sanger.
Oh, BTW, what if you were to, at last, charge them and release the innocent ones? You know, like in “due process”. They’re not technically POW afterall, so you can’t get them in custody until War On Terrorism ends. Unless your land is the land of unlaws not freedom…
Last but not least, what’s the legal status of Guantanamo Bay area: is it Cuba land or US one? Just curious, as I dunno really. One knows?
Nice…
Do you remember guys that Xmas is coming soon?
You can find exclusive gifts at :
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Dont forget about Christmas and your family!
Sanger
Where do these allegations of torture come from? Mostly from the lawyers of detainees or from critics of the war.
Nobody expect them to come from White House, sure.
That so many detainees even have lawyers is remarkable—how many German POWs were given lawyers paid for by the US goverment in WWII?
Comparing apple and orange again, Sanger?
If you consider these detainees are NOT POWs, you can’t compare how you treat them with past POWs. If you actually do consider them POW (as I think your country should), then apply to them the Geneva Conventions your country have ratified. But you can’t have both way, no?
What? You can?
Damn it, I always forgot the “we’re above the laws” thing. Sorry.
Oh. Please notice that the way POWs were treated during WWII was one of the major reasons behind Geneva Conventions. I guess it means WWII’s POWs handling should not considered an example to follow anymore…
And we all know that in the Al Qaida training manual, it expressly advises terrorist operatives to claim that they’ve been “tortured” if they’re captured.
And we all know that nobody was tortured *ever* in this little planet. That was just people false claims. They lied. The ones who die in particular.
Now I see how you guys know these gitmos are all terrorists: they claim being tortured, which is *the* proof they’ve read Al Quaida training manual. It’s so logical I’m astonished I didn’t think it myself! Your torture illegal combatant detainees intelligence gathering policy makers are real genius!
The trouble is about the ones released of all charges custody: they can’t be Al Quaida members otherwise they’ll never be released right? But they also claim they were tortured! How come? Do you mean they read Al Quaida manuals *since* their release!?
Indeed, it wont suprised me some of them actually turns terrorists after gitmo “experience”…
Why is it so hard for people to “read about a prisoner sueing our gov’t for a Bible?” The prisoners at Gitmo get 3 square meals per day, receive prayer rugs, get free korans, pray 5 times per day, the security don’t wear squeaky shoes (b/c it interrupts the prisoners prayer), and they get time to play soccer and other recreational activities. My goodness people, is this a BEACH RESORT?!!!!!?!!!
Not to mention that they have the liberals in the US that scream (in the prisoners defense) things like “US torture”, “give them a lawyer”, “try them or release them”.
Keep it up libs. Just keep it up…
Posted by: rahdigly at November 23, 2005 07:53 AMhmmm….Funny, sadly not, Hipocritical sadly YES. You’d think that a Bible, The very Book that all witnesses taking the stand in trials have to swear an oath of honesty with their left hand touching it would be handed outright to prisoners, After all, It’s So important that every Motel/hotel room in the US has one placed there by the christian zealots, “The Gideon’s”. Why deny it from prisoners? Is it to deny them any form of news or information, Hardly, it was written some 2000 years ago, so it’s highly unlikely that they (the prisoners) could gain any modern day intel from reading the “good book” is there?
rahdigly:
Have you looked at our own prison system Any prison with in the US? 3 Square Meals a day? yup
Receive prayer rugs? yup again, Get free korans? yes, as well as bibles. pray 5 times a day, yes again, in fact I do believe that in the US prison system, Prisoners are free to pray anytime you want not limited to only 5 specific times. The security don’t wear squeaky shoes (b/c it interrupts the prisoners prayer), Well I think that would give the security an edge, don’t you? That way guards could “eaves drop on the prayer time” to make sure that the prisoners were actually praying and not schemeing to breakout of their cells only to be faced with a very long swim to friendly shores. They get time to play soccer and other rereational activities. Well I must say that I am less intimidated by a soccer/backgammon playing detainee, than By a CONVICTED FELON with a bad attitude who spent his time in the joint “Lifting Weights”, aren’t you?
These are just my Humble Opinions.
Happy Thanksgiving All,
As Ever,
Wayne
No terrorist should have any rights or therefore access to a lawyer. Its the Liberal lawyers who are messing up this country. They are the reason the world redicules our goverment.
Posted by: Rene at November 23, 2005 09:28 AMWayne,
“Well I must say that I am less intimidated by a soccer/backgammon playing detainee, than By a CONVICTED FELON with a bad attitude who spent his time in the joint “Lifting Weightsâ€, aren’t you?…These are just my Humble Opinions.”
__________________________________________
You are “less intimidated” by that detainee b/c you didn’t capture him on the battlefield nor did you have to gaurd him everyday. You leave out the fact that he is a terrorist; he has fought (and probably killed) US soldiers (you know the same soldiers liberals “support”); he hates Americans and Jews. You never took that into consideration did you? Do you think that the “detainees” are innocent? Do you think our soldiers are torturing them? Do you hate America? Do you like America?
“Happy Thanksgiving”…
My goodness people, is this a BEACH RESORT?!!!!!?!!!
—-
Wow… being pulled away from your family - over 3 years with no contact or legal representation, not even being charged with a crime.
Cool! Sign me up! Damn, 3 square meals a day - and Julie from the Love Boat as activities director.
Yee! Haaa!
(I know it helps to demean anything that might shatter your sadly thin bubble of illusion, but try and see that if we are Americans, WE must follow our own rules… regardless of who we are dealing with.)
btw - When Jesus said ‘love thy enemy’, I don’t think he meant ‘kill them.’
Posted by: tony at November 23, 2005 09:43 AMMy goodness people, is this a BEACH RESORT?!!!!!?!!!
LOL! I’ll sell you a ticket rahdigly. Send me a post card. :)
BTW, what’s your objection to giving these guys a tribunal? If they’re guilty, fry ‘em. It’s the American way.
Posted by: American Pundit at November 23, 2005 09:44 AM—-
You leave out the fact that he is a terrorist; he has fought (and probably killed) US soldiers (you know the same soldiers liberals “supportâ€); he hates Americans and Jews.
—-
And you leave out the fact that you have no idea at all how these people were captured or what, if any crime they committed. You assume because it makes your arguments seem logical.
Remember, we invaded Afg. to remove terrorists. Are you saying that anyone who fights for his homeland should be grouped with terrorists?
Also - it’s been reported that many of the men at Gitmo were herded up and taken away - not from a battle field, but from city streets where they happened to fit the profile. I have no idea which is true, but empathy will not allow me to agree that we should leave this as unknown for the sake of convenience.
Posted by: tony at November 23, 2005 09:50 AM—-
Its the Liberal lawyers who are messing up this country. They are the reason the world redicules our goverment.
—-
Dang - I thought they were just responsible for turning people gay against their will.
FRY ‘EM!
Posted by: tony at November 23, 2005 09:51 AMRahdigly:
To question my loyalty or love of the United States is not only an insult to me it is an insult to all of The other veteran’s as well. I spent 20 years defending this country only retiring in June 2005. I protected your rights around the world, only to have you question my allegiance to this country. What have you ever done to protect my freedoms? I had to hold my tongue for over 20 years, while you were free to say whatever you wanted about whoever you wanted, now you deny me those very rights that you enjoyed because of my and others “Blood, Sweat and Tears”. You Sir, have not earned the right to question my loyalty or alegience. If you don’t think that has earned me a place to question this administrations policies, What does?
Well??
A very good day to you sir!
As Always,
Wayne
Sadly, It’s just another in a long line of examples of how we have become a Nation of UN-THINKERS. People with any authority at all are given rule books to be followed to the letter including all Political Correctness Procedures and it is pounded into their puny skulls NOT TO DEVIATE under any circumstances. In this NEW AGE this is the NEW THINKING, which is actually NO-THINKING. If it’s not covered in the rule book don’t do anything, just call superior who, if he’s smart won’t answer.
Posted by: drjimmy at November 23, 2005 10:17 AMwayne -
I don’t think you should worry too much about Rahdigly… You know where your heart lays, and it’s not worth your time to answer just depraved insults. I think it does point out the very serious issues we face in having similar mindsets running this country - and that’s where the energy is best spent.
You leave out the fact that he is a terrorist; he has fought (and probably killed) US soldiers
The fact some detainees were released show that *he*’s not always terrorist and he may be eventually just a poor guy being in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong face.
Not all of them. But some.
Charge them and try them to sort them out.
he hates Americans and Jews.
Hardly illegal in a democracy like US.
You never took that into consideration did you? Do you think that the “detainees” are innocent? Do you think our soldiers are torturing them? Do you hate America? Do you like America?
I know you didn’t asked to me, but anyway:
- Yes I did.
- Some were. Maybe some are.
- Yep. FBI agents think it too, as some human rights NGOs.
- Sometimes.
- Most of the time.
Sanger,
You wrote:
Where do these allegations of torture come from? Mostly from the lawyers of detainees or from critics of the war.
The reports of torture are much more widespread than that. Some reports come from official government sources and ackowledge that prisoners have been beaten to death and or tied in stress positions for more than twenty four hours. I agree that bad things happen in every war. Bad things happened in Veit Nam - atrocities - bad things happened in WW2 - Japanese American civilians were interned without due process - bad things happened in the indian wars - the trail of tears - so - so what - that does not make it right. We live in wht has been a great nation - if our nation is to remain great we must listen to our conscience (read liberals in this case, at this moment in history)… we must listen to our conscience and do the “right” that is to say correct thing. The mistakes and excesses of previous wars have been the source of our nation’s greatet sadness. America is a dream of a shining city on a hill that has never been completely real - but which we have always striven for - let us join together and continue to strive for true American greatness and true American ideals. Let us turn away from torture.
You also talk about due process. The due process that does now exist is inadequate and was only belated granted after the liberal consiennce of this country finally found a voice to speak. It was the silent and cowed liberals of this country such as myself who allowed this country to be misled into war and allowed policies by the Bush Whitehouse that led directly to torture to stand. This was my failure. I allowed myself to be cowed into silence by the conservative propaganda machine. I will be cowed no more. I will be silent no longer. But… for now… I have to shutup and go…
Posted by: Ray G. at November 23, 2005 10:55 AMRay G./Novenge
Allow me to connect the dots regarding my prior statement. The point was NOT to give Bibles to kids in school. The point WAS the hypocrisy of the liberals “worry†about the religious freedoms denied strangers when our own children (who are held “captive†for 7-8 hours a day @ school) have absolutely ZERO religious freedoms given to them by this same government.
• They cannot pray
• They cannot read a bible
• nor can one be brought to the school
• They are prohibited from studying innumerable aspects of our nations history which have religious aspects imbedded within (i.e. George Washington’s speeches and personal journals are off limits as they acknowledging God presence in founding our nation)
• Homework writings about one’s religious experiences or views are censored by teachers and cannot be shared in class.
And BTW – for quite some time over the history of our great nation the Bible was a key component of daily school curriculum. Children learned to read, spell, etc using the Bible in public classrooms as a TEXTBOOK!
No – I don’t want the government handing out Bibles in school but I DO want religious FREEDOM. And yes it seem most hypocritical that you care more about Gitmo detainees than about the future generation of our country. The fact that you want outsiders to have more religious freedom than your own children speaks volumes for the depth from which our country has fallen. And if our great country ceases to be great, you can bet it will have much less to do with freedoms denied war detainees than about the religious suppression vigorously expanding in our schools and, for that matter, our communities.
Amen Paul. Where is this country headed when a few who object to anything religious in public places and to the phrase Under God. Even to go so far as to limit the stuff that someone buys and pays for in a display in their own yards. If it is objectionable to you don’t say it(no one forces anyone to say under god) don’t look at that house look elsewhere or if it is so hard to do that move to a country that doesn’t have the stuff. Our country was founded on the belief that all men were created equal, and that all men had the choice of religious freedom to belive or not, but to not trample on the beliefs of others. The same with the courts, they are being forced to get rid of the 10 commandments because of the religion in government, but tell me this with out them where would this country be. Believers or not they are the basis for everything. Thou shall not kill, Thou shall honor thy mother and father, etc. My beliefs and the beliefs of others are being torn away little by little.
Posted by: Sherri at November 23, 2005 06:58 PMBy the way Wayne thank you for your years of service to help keep us safe.
Posted by: Sherri at November 23, 2005 06:59 PMWhat happened to this blog?? I used to read it for all the intelligent comments I couldn’t get anywhere else! what happened? Ray, Wayne, Tony, thank you for your enlightened and thoughtful comments. The rest of you people are F***ing nuts.
I DARE you crazy guys to find one single person, let alone liberal, (above the age of 5) who thinks that not getting an Xbox is torture.
As for anyone who actually thinks we need the bible in school, people in this country have the choice of follwing the religion they wish. If you want the bible in school, I better see an optional course on religions of the world as well.
In addtion,
Liberal lawyers my ass. Everyone who is not Tony, Ray and Wayne (sorry if I missed any other sane people on this blog, I appolgize for not including them) come up with some real arguements and drop the damn talking points you know nothing about.
Posted by: Kimberly at November 23, 2005 07:38 PMPAUL I AGREE!
Maybe we should also teach them about the Freemason and Deist beliefs of this country’s founding fathers. How about building a Masonic Sanctum in schools to teach them just that? Sun worshipping, there ya go!
Yes I agree (sarcasm) that we need more religious Americanism taught so they can confuse giving unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. There are lots of other indoctrinal means of bringing children into the Christian faith. Sunday School, local churches, online sites, Bible study courses in every denomination, there’s actually alot out there really.
My biggest question comes when they want to pray around the flagpole. What the heck are they prayin’ about that they couldn’t pray about at the bus stop??? Are they praying to a national flag, Jesus himself frowned on that one.
Yes a national religion by which all must accept it’s theocratic dictums???? THAT’S WHY WE LEFT EUROPE GENIUS!!!!!!!!!!!! So they couldn’t do that to us anymore. My ancestors in Europe were being imprisoned by catholics for being presbyterians, we split for a place where it wasn’t being told to us what to believe. That’s here in the US! You want a theocracy have one in your living room fine but this is America and it is not owned by you alone, simple.
People don’t know the fight our founding fathers had with the Calvanists who almost overtook this country in the eighteenth century and I gather neither do you. We almost lost this country to zealots, our founding fathers fought it back. This is a place supposedly to be of capitalism and free expression and that pertains to worship. The right to be Hindu or Jain or whatever and it is just that reason why we are probably so religious as a nation to begin with.
And the far right don’t want non-activist judges on the Supreme court they want just the opposite. The few to tell the many what to do. I mean can’t you see that to impose on others what to believe in is Greed and that too, Christ frowned on. Show me a verse in the new testament where it says ‘GO forth and monopolize your version of God over all other faiths’. It doesn’t so maybe you need a bible because all the wing-nuts keep thinking that it says that somewhere in it. Isn’t being a religion over all other religions and Gods an anti-christian activity anyway?
Yes there are Christian histories to both America and Europe they know that. A bible doesn’t tell them anymore about it but a textbook would and that’s what they are working off of. Yes maybe the PC aspects need to be curbed in some cases but a bible to learn from what are we in the year one anno domini????
Posted by: Novenge at November 23, 2005 10:02 PMSHERRI,
When was the last time someone was endicted on charges of not honoring thy mother and father??? Though shalt not commit beastiality I guess is for one of those ‘too drunk to see’ nights? Though shalt not covet another man’s wife? Don’t look at her, oh now you’re going to prison! I’m sorry but your arguement is silly, the basis of everything?
Around the supreme court in it’s marble reliefs are statues of Confucius, Plato, Socrates, Hammurabi and others so it just doesn’t hold water that it was just 10 Noahide laws that were the “basis for everything”. The Talmud had more to do with it’s formation than Moses, really. With it’s more examined levels of law and practice.
Do you want extensive Talmudic laws on the walls of the Supreme Court or in your local courthouse? We have our own laws and that’s what we practice.
Posted by: Novenge at November 23, 2005 10:36 PMWhy is it so hard for people to “read about a prisoner sueing our gov’t for a Bible?†The prisoners at Gitmo get 3 square meals per day, receive prayer rugs, get free korans, pray 5 times per day, the security don’t wear squeaky shoes (b/c it interrupts the prisoners prayer), and they get time to play soccer and other recreational activities. My goodness people, is this a BEACH RESORT?!!!!!?!!!
It’s prison, dummy, where people are kept in cages. I am a Navy veteran, and the Gitmo camps are a source of shame to me as an American Veteran. It’s no wonder W has to have phalanxes of riot police protecting him whenever he is out of of the country. W and his neo-con thugs have made the USA more hated than ever before in History.
Posted by: mrpuma at November 24, 2005 08:59 AMNo terrorist should have any rights or therefore access to a lawyer. Its the Liberal lawyers who are messing up this country. They are the reason the world redicules our goverment.
Posted by: Rene at November 23, 2005 09:28 AM
Funny Rene, I thought what distinguishes our legal systems is that people are presumed innocent until proven guilty. I thought also that the US government under the constitution, was amenable to the US Courts to ensure that its acts were constitutional. It seems until your courts deem otherwise, that all the US govt has to do to avoid its constitutional responsibilities, is to move detainees offshore, to Gitmo, for example. But how can that be right? Surely US Government agencies are answerable to the US courts wherever they are?
Posted by: Paul in Euroland at November 24, 2005 02:57 PMPaul Siegel,
I really believe you wrote an excellent post. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I did check it out and I too want to laugh and cry over the stupidity of the entire issue.
You did however spark a question in my mind.
Since there is now a major battle going on here in our homeland regarding religion and God, it would appear to me that allowing the prisoners access to a BIBLE would have been a great propoganda move for fundlementalist Christains. What better way to convert someone than giving out BIBLES and only BIBLE to read.
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Paul in Euroland
I couldn’t agree more. Not only are people presumed to be innocent until proven guilty, these prisoners are also going to be tried by military and I assume AMERICAN judges, by AMERICAN laws, with AMERICAN lawyers. Does anyone really believe that ALL of them will get a fair trial?
The delay in trails is also an interesting thought.
It makes me wonder whether the government really has enough evidence to convict all of them. Over 800+ I think - but I’m not sure. Could someone please tell me the tue numbers?
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All the comments on this blog leave me wondering… what about the HUMAN RIGHTS issue? Are we NOT suposed to be opposed any type of harm to all the people in the world? Seems like we didn’t like China b/c they had people working in sweatbox surroundings, and forced children to work, etc. Based on just this one thing, it would appear to me we are breaking our own beliefs.
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Wayne,
I too want to thank you for your service. You are one of many unsung heroes. Thank you,
(BTW- have you noticed that Rah has not posted anything in a while…for that I also thank you)
Linda H.
The delay in trails is also an interesting thought.
It makes me wonder whether the government really has enough evidence to convict all of them. Over 800+ I think - but I’m not sure. Could someone please tell me the tue numbers?
Posted by: Linda H. at November 25, 2005 12:25 AM
Fair comment Linda H. - it is a well established principle of our common law that Justice delayed, is Justice denied.
Posted by: Paul in Euroland at November 25, 2005 07:17 AMKimberly,
I could not have put any more elegantly than you have even with Shakespeare Guiding my fingers, Thank You, Very Much.
As Always,
Wayne
Novenge
I neither wrote nor advocated that Christianity or any other religion be taught. What I am advocating is that our schools operate under the Constitution which provides for “Freedom OF Religion” not “Freedom FROM Religion”.
So, one more time, lets review what I DID write. This time, please read what I have writen, not what you wanted me to write.
“The point was NOT to give Bibles to kids in school. The point WAS the hypocrisy of the liberals worry about the religious freedoms denied strangers when our own children (who are held captive for 7-8 hours a day @ school) have absolutely ZERO religious freedoms given to them by this same government.”
These then were my examples (If you have other religious freedeom’s denied, from ANY other religion, feel free to add to this list):
“*They cannot pray
*They cannot read a bible
*nor can one be brought to the school
*They are prohibited from studying innumerable aspects of our nations history which have religious aspects imbedded within (i.e. George Washingtons speeches and personal journals are off limits as they acknowledging God presence in founding our nation)
*Homework writings about one’s religious experiences or views are censored by teachers and cannot be shared in class.”
My next point was NOT to suggest Bibles be used as a textbook today. It was in response to your prior question/comment of:
“Was there ever a time when they (students)were presented with the bible in public schools? Ever? because although my knowledge of this only goes back to the mid seventies did the public school ever give kids bibles?”
My answer to that quesiton was:
“And for quite some time over the history of our great nation the Bible was a key component of daily school curriculum. Children learned to read, spell, etc using the Bible in public classrooms as a TEXTBOOK!”
Lastly, I will repeat:
“I don’t want the government handing out Bibles in school but I DO want religious FREEDOM.” If they want to bring a Bible to school, let them. If they write about a religious experience for a homework assignment, don’t censor it! When studying History, study ALL of it - don’t edit and censor the parts that have religious ties. For crying our loud, religion is a huge part of the founding of our great nation. Don’t cower from it, embrace the fact it happened! To do otherwise is to teach a lie!
And I will not stand quietly by while the liberal community purposely restricts my children’s freedoms while at the same time this same community cry’s for the freedom’s of complete strangers!
Posted by: Paul at November 26, 2005 03:48 AMPaul,
You wrote:
The point WAS the hypocrisy of the liberals ⦣x20AC;œworry⦣x20AC; about the religious freedoms denied strangers when our own children (who are held ⦣x20AC;œcaptive⦣x20AC; for 7-8 hours a day @ school) have absolutely ZERO religious freedoms given to them by this same government.
⦣x20AC;? They cannot pray
⦣x20AC;? They cannot read a bible
⦣x20AC;? nor can one be brought to the school
I may have misunderstood your earlier point and I may still misunderstand you but…
You seem to want religious freedom for Christians. Why should Christians be restrained in public school? This is a democracy, most of the country is Christian so why? Christians are restrained in the public practice of their faith, not in the private practice. Our founding fathers first and foremost wanted to protect personal freedom and personal liberty. They were much less concerned with the freedom and liberty of groups and religions. So… the poor little oppressed massive Christian majority is restrained from public practice in order to protect the individual rights of Buddhist, Muslims, Hindus, a few Godless Atheist, and others - and that is as it should be. You compare the religious rights of the detainees to the religious rights of children. But the religious rights that this corrupt and incompetent administration is supposedly granting to the detainees are to private practice. They are not being given the right to promote their religion in public schools. So your comparison is apples and oranges. You also talk about Bibles having been used as textbooks in the past. That probably happened as a matter of expediency because the Bible was the only book widely available, otherwise it was just wrong. As far as children not being allowed to take a Bible to school for personal private use is concerned - I do not believe that - but - if it is happening then it is a bridge too far - because we must protect the individual liberties of Godless Atheist and Christian fanatic teenagers - by the way I was intermittently both of those things during my teenage years.
Posted by: Ray G. at November 27, 2005 02:38 AM
