Democrats & Liberals: Archives

AP

Good article. I think the bullshit is provoked by the rewriting of history and trying to prevent that from happening. It doesn’t always work, as we see with the prewar intelligence debate, but at least we have them on the record.

AP
You’re right.It was bullshit.

Problem was most of the media screamed “Democratic Hawk Wants US to Immediately Withdraw”…which wasn’t what he said.

As a result,it got a lot of play oversees.I checked with the Italians and it made RAI Uno’s Nationial broadcast and La Republica’s front pages on Thursday.

Not to mention the Mid-East.

Yesterday,most European stories carried the fact that the House voted down that proposal,so I think it had its intended effect,which was to basicially negate a story that never happened.

I really think Murtha did a lot of good and I hope the president now defines the war better.

I thought there were hyneas on both sides of the debate though.

Sam Johnson,as usual,inspired me.

I commend Mr Murtha for speaking out. I just wish the rest of the house had his honesty and integrity. I think both house democrats and republicans should be ashame of their failure to address the serious question of where do we go from here in Iraq. In fact I think they should all remain in Washington and draw up a plan that would force the Bush adminisrtation to spell out in detail what course their on and exactly what constitutes a finished mission.

Perhaps our Fourth Estate has started to learn again their role in our democracy. Unlike most of the previous five years, it seems that the corporate mainstream media (ignorantly described as liberal by our less-than-informed friends) will no longer roll over and do the bidding of the right-wing cabal that controls the modern Republican party and the levers of our government. The failure of the press to play along with the House leadership’s latest shameless attempt to twist the facts and the perception in the face of uncomfortable (for them) truth is good news for American democracy.

Continuing to support the monkey-in-chief or the republican leadership is simply moronic at this point - no reason to play nice or sugar coat it. No matter how intelligent they try to make themselves sound, the words of the sycophants and enablers only give creedence to the assumption that they have no clue as to the fragility of a real democracy (or worse, they do and simply wish to manipulate it to their selfish ends) and therefore are in no position to add anything of value to important debates about our nation’s future.

Perhaps our Fourth Estate has started to learn again their role in our democracy.

Don’t count on it roger.

I’m suprised that the Democrats had the balls to vote against the pullout without first asking Hiliary and Dean for marching orders.
But this is ONE of very few times they were RIGHT.

AP, Your title should be, “Democrats refuse to back up their convictions with action.”

But I am heartened by your newfound support for victory in Iraq. Hopefully it’s not in the same spirit as the call for a draft before the election. I’m curious, would that qualify as a ‘total bullshit move’?

Why should we follow the left’s advice on Iraq? A war they claim is illigitimate and failed?

Afterall, should we have postponed elections in Iraq as Kerry et al demanded was the ‘common sense’ thing to do?

One of Murtha’s claims is that this war cannot be won militarily, yet if that’s true what would have been the effect of cancelling promised elections as Democrats and the left demanded?

AP:

People here are getting too caught up in the PR war. The troops are coming home this spring. What we are hearing and seeing through the media is a war for spin.

Congressman Murtha knows already that the troops will be coming home in the spring, he just wants credit for it. Bush claims that we are staying put. This is true in that our troops will stay there until Bush can be in control of the media package that takes credit for it. Watch for the announcment coming anytime after the election. My money would be on January after the new government has formed, but before May.

Both sides are campaigning for the 2006 elections. Your team (right now is winning) is campaigning on the theme that Bush misled the country, has mismanaged the war and generally led the country to ruin. My team, the Republicans will be saying “we won the war. We have transformed the middle east, and the troops are coming home!!”

Let the team with the best PR campaign win.

What a way to deal with honorable people risking their lives overseas.

Craig

Perhaps it’s time to wonder why Bush won’t commit more troops to finish the job quick and crush the terrorists in Iraq. Not to sound like some nutty conspiracy theorist, but is there any motivation for prolonging the occupation in Iraq? Not to make any accusations, but should we not ask the question. Why are some companies (e.g. KBR) bringing in very cheap labor from Asia ( www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1014-01.htm )? Why, amid 17 million unemployed Iraqis, does KBR seek cheap labor from abroad ( www.progress.org/2003/labor05.htm , www.corpwatch.org/print_article.php?id=8770 )?

Some of these workers have been murdered by terrorists, and the companies aren’t even paying the life insurance policies (as they should be) for these murdered workers ( www.truthout.org/issues_05/printer_101305LA.shtml )

These corporations need to be held accountable. This type of corpocrisy and exploitation is disturbing. These people are not just being exploited. They are being lied, cheated, tricked into extremely dangerous situations, and led to their own slaughter.

And, corporations such as Halliburton and KBR are behind it.

So, one has to wonder why Bush, and others may want to prolong our occupation in Iraq. Is it possible that there is something far more sinister going on here ?

It is sad how many lives are wasted due to the irresponsibility and unaccountability of the gang of over two million in the Executive branch (that is neither seen nor heard as it throttles our freedoms and prosperity), and the relatively smaller and less powerful 435 persons in Congress and their hundreds of thousands employees.

The essence of totalitarianism, is the destruction of the parliamentary or legislative branch of government, by the Executive branch.

We should send a clear message to government, vote them all out, and elect people who would take their oath of office to the Constitution and The People seriously, and their first act of such a constitutional Congress would be reducing the bloated executive branch. Especially since it doesn’t seem to be able or willing to do the job correctly.

Hear Hear!!!

As usual, the name calling and cutesy names continue. I wonder why some folks feel a need to make up names and nicknames for those they don’t like? Could it be a lack of substantive ideas?

However, I digress. The truth of the matter is: the war in Iraq is being won. What we are not seeing is winning the peace. Militarily, we have done well. A war of this length with less than 2,500 KIA is almost a miracle, seeing the enemy that we now face.

Where Bush and Company messed up was in underestimating the effect of our invasion. Someone should have realized that the toppling of Saddam would result in the kind of terror tactics that we are witnessing. Someone should have realized that the idea of a free Iraq with open elections and the beginnings of the rule of law would be the last thing that the radical branch of Islam would want.

For all their rantings about the United States being the enemy, by bombing mosques, shopping areas and other places where mostly Iraqis gather, we can see that their real target is freedom.

Have we made mistakes? Of course we have. Does the Bush administration have any workable solutions to the problems? Probably not. Do the liberals have any workable solutions? Probably not. Where do we go from here?

The Democrats did the right thing for the wrong reason. And the Republicans did the wrong thing for the wrong reason.
Both took the usual party line. A Republican perposed a resolution so the Republicans were all for it and the Democrats were all against it.
This is the kind of crap that’s been going on for as long as I can remember. Meanwhile the REAL problems of this country are being ignored.
That’s why starting with the 2006 election, we need to vote the whole Congress out and replace them with canidates that will reprensent WE THE PEOPLE for a change. Neither party has done this for the last 60 years or more. NO politician in either party deserves to keep their seats.

http://voidnow.org

d.a.n.:

So, one has to wonder why Bush, and others may want to prolong our occupation in Iraq. Is it possible that there is something far more sinister going on here ?

I don’t think Bush is prolonging the occupation in Iraq. I think they don’t think the job is done until the new government with parliment is in place in January. Next summer if withdrawl hadn’t started, I will be closer to your view. I think the troops start coming home shortly after january if not sooner. I bet there is a day marked on Bush’s calendar already.

Craig

Craig,

I’m not so sure. We went into World War II in 1941, and wrapped it all up by 1945, and paid down the National Debt in only a few years.

But, that was then, with people of more courage and integrity. Further proof of that, that our current government, for the most part, is irresponsible and unaccountable is corroborated by a challenge I posted several times for people to name 10, 20, 50, 100, or even 218 (half of the 435 in Congress) that they believe are responsible and accountable. After days, only 5 or 6 were named. And, for the few names listed, it was all too easy to show where these persons (supposedly the best) vote on pork-barrel, vote on waste, do unethical things, look the other way, fuel the petty partisan warfare, are consumed with collecting money from big money donors, and often, don’t even show up to vote. So, why is it no one can provide a list of even 10 or 20 or 50 persons? Because it doesn’t exist. And, if not even 218 (half within Congress) are responsible and accountable, then one can only logically conclude that government, for the most part, is irresponsible and unaccountable. The problem is too widespread to hope that government will reform itself. Only The People can make it happen now. And, they will, eventually. Thus, why shouldn’t The People do the most logical, inexpensive, and responsible thing to peacefully restore a balance of power between government and The People (not merely shift it, or strip government of all power to accomplish anything), and peacefully force government to be responsible and accountable too?

Corruption within government is actually quite natural.
It’s the result of a natural human tendency to prosper by the least amount of effort. It’s rooted in laziness. While it is a natural human tendency, it is immoral to surrender to it completely.
But, that’s what all governments do as time progresses. They continually grow more and more corrupt until they are forced to reform. Then it starts all over again. Unfortunately, that’s just the way it is, until the people understand this simple truth, and force government to be transparent, enforce the laws and rules, and never ignore government. To ignore government, invites abuse. If allowed to grow too corrupt for too long, as the U.S. now has, the more difficult it is to reform it, and the more severe and painful the eventual correction will be. To believe otherwise is to ignore history and human psychology ( http://home.comcast.net/~d.a.n/The80YearCycle.gif ).

Thus, I support VOID too. I personally believe The People should seriously consider this peaceful, constructive, responsible approach, and it should be soon, because I don’t think the U.S. can withstand even one more decade of fiscal and moral bankruptcy. Many say history repeats itself. Many believe our only choice is to let things run their course. They may be correct. But, I can not resign to futility and despair. We may repeat history. We may have to learn the hard way (again). But, doing nothing will only guarantee it. So, why not try to resolve the problem the smart, responsible, least painful way. And, if we succeed, we may avoid a repeat of history, and instead, make history.
_____________________________________________
P.S. This is in no way a criticism of our military. I support our troops. I simply want to make politicians be more responsible, instead of voting on pork-barrel & waste, while some of our troops need body armor, need armor of their humvees, and need medical attention. Some serious adjustment of priorities is needed in government. The fiscal and moral bankruptcy of the incumbents in Congress and the Executive Branch is incredulous. That’s why The People should do the most responsible thing to fix that: vote out all the incumbents, repeatedly, every election, until they get the message, become more transparent, pass a ONE PURPOSE PER BILL and a BALANCED BUDGET amendment, pass campaign finance reform, pass tax reform, pass election reform, and prove they deserve to keep their cu$hy, coveted, highly prized seats in government.

Some people seem to be happy and pleased with the status quo. Does the following appear like a responsible and accountable government ?
____OUR U.$. CONGRESS__________________________
7 that have been arrested for fraud;
19 have been accused of writing bad checks;
117 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses;
3 have done time for assault;
71, repeat 71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit;
14 have been arrested on drug-related charges;
8 have been arrested for shoplifting;
21 currently are defendants in lawsuits;
84 have been arrested for drunk driving in the last year;

And, here’s some more examples of what our illustrious Congress has been doing, and some of the very difficult decisions they make daily:
[] Hmmm…let’s see…Vote for Pork-Barrel or vote for more funding for FEMA ?
[] Hmmm…vote ourselves raises or vote for raises for troops in active duty and more funding for disabled veterans ?
[] Vote for $75,000 for Onondaga County for the Greater Syracuse Sports Hall of Fame or more armor for humvees ?
[] Vote for $150,000 added in conference for the Coca-Cola Space Science Center in Columbus, Ga. or secure the nation’s borders (which Al-Qaeda is infiltrating) ?
[] Vote for $250,000 added by the House for the North Creek Ski Bowl in the district of House appropriator John Sweeney (R-N.Y.) or fix the levees in New Orleans ?
[] Vote for $250,000 added by the Senate for the Country Music Hall of Fame and Museum in Nashville, Tenn. to support community programs or fix our crumbling infrastructure (bridges, roads, railways, etc.) ?
[] $775,000 for the Biltmore Hotel in the district of Rep. Ileana Ros- Lehtinen (R-Fla.) or shore up Social Security and Medicare ?
[] $100,000 for the Tiger Woods Foundation or improve public education ?
[] $300,000 for Baltimore for the relocation of the Center Garage or prosecute investor/stock fraud ?
[] $5000 for gold embossed cards for Air Force One or bullet proof vests for troops in Iraq ?
What to see more? Just visit http://www.cagw.org
They have thousands of examples by almost every single incumbent in Congress.
______________________________________________

The problem is so widespread, and the bar is so low, and our perspective is shifted, it is no wonder our many pressing problems continue to grow in number and serverity.

If only the Republicans and Democrats who voted for this war actually had a credible plan for defeating the terrorists in Iraq. Big problem is, neither side does. Our very presence in Iraq grows the terrorist movements in the world. Hence, the term quagmire.

Thanks Dem’s and Rep’s for this quagmire. It’s just another “fine mess you have gotten us into”.

It would be funny, if it weren’t so serious.

There’s one consolation. It’s better than the Three Stooges could do.

Craig,
Good posts. Agreed. As for the current battle, I’d point out the Bush administration initiated this current round with the Bush speech on 11/11. The Dem counterattack has been effective. I’ve posted a few comments on the role of oil in Iraq, and the need for a legitimate government to be in place, so that long-term, legally binding contracts can be signed.

D.a.n.,
To summarize, I think Craig has summed it up quite nicely. The withdrawal will begin soon. If a large US force remains beyond this summer, time to assume the worst.

All,
The crazy thing is, it doesn’t have to go this way. The Bush administration could reach out, paint the coming withdrawal as a deliberate, careful act of consensus, a victorious campaign- Saddam Hussein ousted, Iraqis provided a chance for democratic self-rule. Instead, the current round of vituperation started with the Bush speech 11/11, followed by Cheney’s use of the word ‘spineless,’ and so on.

Eric,
A consensus seems to be developing that the US will be withdrawing from Iraq soon. Even as we speak, Rumself has given Gen Casey orders to prepare a plan for withdrawal.

withdrawal = surrender

Your article. Your headline, “Bush Lied, We Must Surrender.” You clearly equate the Dem position of withdrawal with surrender. In response to Murtha’s Resolution for withdrawal, you write: “… surrender is the official Democratic position on the Iraq war.” Care to elaborate?

withdrawal = surrender

I’m sure you’re busy, but I’m happy to be helpful; I can keep bringing this up until you have the time to elaborate, or until Bush surrenders.

Once again the Republican are playing their favorite game of spinning the truth;however, I do not believe they are fooling the public this time. What will be the next scheme put forth by the Republican leadership in Congress, and the right wing radio and TV spin masters

Once again the Republican are playing their favorite game of spinning the truth;however, I do not believe they are fooling the public this time. What will be the next scheme put forth by the Republican leadership in Congress, and the right wing radio and TV spin masters

David
Why should either party worry about a credible plan for winning in Iraq? Their buddies are getting rich, and their campaign contributions keep comming in. All is well with the world.

Of course our troops keep dieing but that’s a small price to pay for to insure that they keep their cu$hy jobs.

Frankly both democrats and republicans in congress, with a few exceptions, make me sick to my stomach. It’s time for our nation to break away from a two party system, both existing parties have sold out to big money. We as a people are completely alienated from our government and it’s time for a revolutionary change. Of course this is easier said than done.

phx8:

As for the current battle, I’d point out the Bush administration initiated this current round with the Bush speech on 11/11. The Dem counterattack has been effective.

It is an interesting to replay the melodrama of the last few months if they all know. I think they do know. I think the President, the Congress, both Democrat and Republican know that the troops are coming home soon. I think they know the approximate date.

I think everything from Bush’s 11/11 speech to Murtha’s resolution to shutting down the Senate to the events of this past friday night is all political BS. It’s an attempt to control the flow of information to get control for the 2006 elections.

You folks want scandal? I think there is a bipartisan scandal right now. Here is my evidence:

Here is Talabani letting slip by telling the truth and the Bush telling him to shut up 9/15/05:

“Bush’s meeting with Iraqi President Jalal Talabani came a day after he departed from White House talking points and broached the prospect of large-scale withdrawal of U.S. forces from his country. In an interview with The Washington Post on Monday, Talabani said “at least from 40,000 to 50,000 American troops can be [withdrawn] by the end of this year.”

After meeting with Bush on Tuesday morning, Talabani joined the president in the East Room to deliver a different message. “We will set no timetable for withdrawal, Mr. President,” Talabani said at a joint media availability. “A timetable will help the terrorists, will encourage them [to think] that they could defeat a superpower of the world and the Iraqi people.”“

Look at General Casey’s remarks on July 18 in the Washington Post:

“If the political process continues to go positively, and if the development of the security forces continues to go as it is going, I do believe we’ll still be able to take some fairly substantial reductions after these elections in the spring and summer,” Casey said before meeting with Jafari.

The top American commander in Iraq has been privately rebuked by the Bush administration for openly discussing plans to reduce troop levels there next year, The Sunday Telegraph has learned.

President George W Bush personally intervened last week to play down as “speculation” all talk of troop pull-outs because he fears that even discussing options for an “exit strategy” implies weakening resolve.

So I think Congress and the President have been briefed that this Spring is it. All of this Crap we are up in arms about is just polical postering for the cameras. The American People and worse of all our soldiers are being taken for a political spin ride.

Any of you smart bloggers want to connect the dots better than I can and get your name in lights?

Craig

AP,
This “Withdraw” is were I seperate with some of the Democrats on. The debate over Iraq is not the War on Terror due to its very Self-Nature and thus is why the President is having problems with his political argument. Realizing that Rep. Murtha must want to hold an Ace up his sleeve, I would like to see the Democrats in Congress take the bull by the horns approach to winning the peace in Iraq.

An Immediate Redeployment of Troops tells us what? Something is not right and our government needs to use all of it’s services wisely. Therefore, by seperating Iraq from the Global War on Terror America has a chance to save face and bring home our troops. While Advisors and certain Services may still be needed in Iraq after the election, our State Dept. has the necessary factors to better assist the Iraq Citizens to restore civil order. Additionally, this redeployment could free up some much needed resourses required to seek and destory Al Qaeda units in Iraq and elsewhere in the world.

In this manner not only could America declare victory, but by focusing our efforts on those who wish to exploit Human Nature in an attempt to build a New U.N. the War on Terror can grow fangs.

Henry:

In this manner not only could America declare victory, but by focusing our efforts on those who wish to exploit Human Nature in an attempt to build a New U.N. the War on Terror can grow fangs.

Annan urges Iraq reconciliation
Bodyguards escort UN Secretary General Kofi Annan in Baghdad
Security has been stepped up during Mr Annan’s visit
United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan has stressed the importance of national reconciliation in Iraq during a surprise visit to Baghdad.

I am really not a conspiracy theorist unless of course I get to make up the conspiracy. Here is Kofi Annan coming to Iraq to plan the post USA days. Annan and Bush both need a win. So Annan is secretly meeting with leadership in Iraq spreading the word that the UN will be happy to move in after there is a legitimate government to take over from the bungling US forces who want to go home. “Please let us come in again, my son misses the kickbacks from the food for oil program!!”

Here is Senator Kerry explaining what the real plan already is. He is just stating it so that he can quote this later on,

Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.) yesterday called for the withdrawal of 20,000 troops from Iraq by year’s end as the first step in a proposal that would significantly reduce U.S. military forces in the region over the next 15 months.

Just so he can repeat his line in different form in the next election. “I really was for withdrawl right after I was against it!!” Here he is saying he is opposed to withdrawing troops.

“No,‎ replied Kerry.

“Do you believe there should be a specific timetable of withdrawal of American troops?‎ Russert continued.

“No,‎ Kerry repeated.

2008 wouldn’t be a great campaign without Kerry on both sides of the same issue.

At the sametime as has already been noted here is Murtha’s plan:

My plan calls:

To immediately redeploy U.S. troops consistent with the safety of U.S. forces.
To create a quick reaction force in the region.
To create an over- the- horizon presence of Marines.
To diplomatically pursue security and stability in Iraq

He of course was royally chewed out, because he wasn’t authorized. Here is the authorized version of the same thing given to rumsfield:

The Pentagon is laying the groundwork for beginning a withdrawal from Iraq, even as it is weighing the risk of moving so quickly that Iraqi security forces collapse without U.S. support.

This is sorta like watching a soap opera. Sometimes you get really caught up in it, and can’t break away. Once you see it’s all political gamesmanship, I guess it makes me very angry. I have a son who is a naval officer. I am not sure I want my son to be a pawn in the bipartisen game anymore. What I would like is the truth.

Craig

Craig,
Have faith in our System. Yes the political game in our country works in a strange way to that I can give no argument to; however, the main hurdle has been broken by the natural course of Human Events. Therefore, level heads should reveal themselve in Congress just as they have in the past. Otherswise the “We the People” really get to have fun with our political system.

I am heartened by your newfound support for victory in Iraq

Ha! Good one Eric. From the start I supported victory, that’s why I voted against Bush. I knew he wouldn’t deliver.

You guys on the right already lost the policial war over there: Iraq is not a liberal democracy; the new government is already on the State Department’s human rights watchlist for murder, torture and rape; you guys never privatized the centrally controlled socialist economy, so it’s not even close to being a free market; more than 60% of Iraqis are on the government dole, and the patronage-system politicians like it that way; and the pro-Iranian Grand Ayatollah has a veto over all political appointments and legislation under Iraq’s piece of crap constitution.

Good job your guys are doing over there, Eric.

And now, Dr. Rice finally has a plan to defeat al Qaeda in Iraq and you guys on the right are completely silent on it. You’re going to squander any kind of military victory in Iraq as well as the political victory we could have had.

Democrats told you Republicans from the start that you’d need double (at least) the number of troops in Iraq to secure the victory, and that scared the shit out of you guys. Republicans refused to pay the cost of victory, and now they’re getting what they paid for: one more unstable Middle Eastern petro state where terrorists can train and operate freely.

You Republicans refused to support victory in Iraq — and you still do. You guys won’t commit the troops necessary to deny Iraq to al Qaeda. They’ll still be operating there when you guys finally decide to pull out the troops leaving poorly-trained Iraqis to deal (or make a deal) with them as best they can.

Murtha is absolutely right to suggest realigning our troop deployments. It’s exactly the same plan under exactly the same conditions that you Republicans will implement later.

Why should either party worry about a credible plan for winning in Iraq? Their buddies are getting rich

Heh. You know the Republican Party is on the verge of collapse when the 3rd-Party guys start up again with the ‘Republocrat’ rhetoric rather than shoring up the Democratic Party. :)

The sad thing is, Iraq is so unsecure that half the $18 billion allocated for reconstruction isn’t even allocated. Nobody’s bidding for the jobs because nobody can get their employees in there to do them. I’m guessing the corporations are just as pissed at Bush (about his failure to secure Iraq, anyhow) as everyone else.

Wow, most of this thread seems to be made up of they same old right-wing bullshit that’s been about as thoroughly rejected by anyone with an IQ over 25 as has the flat earth theory. Do you guys notice how you are basically talking to yourselves and that very few are bothering to engage you? You make no sense and present little more than exaggerations, distortions, manipulations and outright lies. Your irrelevance is astounding.

LOL .. typical liberal response when they are losing an argument (which is most of the time), they resort to name calling.

Appearently Democrats want president bush to check his crystal ball and make a game plan so they will have something to criticize.

Do NFL coaches know every play they are gonna call before the game?? NO they dont, they respond to whats happening on the field and call the appropriate play for the current situation.

No matter how hard you(libs)try, Americans will never like socialism.

Ericsimonson,

“Why should we follow the left’s advice on Iraq? A war they claim is illigitimate and failed?”

It is illigitimate. It is a monsterous failure.
That does not mean we want to lose.
You shouldn’t take our advice.

you should follow all of their military advisors, not just the ones who agree with them. You should follow those members of your party and others who have years of extensive combat experience and deal in battle tested theories.Not Bush or Cheney’s half baked bull-shit.
Bush and Cheney are pro-torture, between them they have 0 combat experience and several deferments. McCain is against torture, he has combat experience and was a POW.
Who should we listen to?
Kerry stated that we should be cautious as we prepare for war, he has experience fighting for his country in Vietnam. Cheney and Bush called him soft and a flip-flopper and rushed into war, neither served any combat duty.
Who would you listen to?
Bush and Cheney focused on selling bad intelligence to America refused to listen to their top generals in the planning stages of the war.
Post-war planning non-existent

By WARREN P. STROBEL and JOHN WALCOTT

Knight Ridder Newspapers

WASHINGTON - In March 2003, days before the start of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, American war planners and intelligence officials met at Shaw Air Force Base in South Carolina to review the Bush administration’s plans to oust Saddam Hussein and implant democracy in Iraq.

Near the end of his presentation, an Army lieutenant colonel who was giving a briefing showed a slide describing the Pentagon’s plans for rebuilding Iraq after the war, known in the planners’ parlance as Phase 4-C. He was uncomfortable with his material - and for good reason.
The slide said: “To Be Provided.”

“A Knight Ridder review of the administration’s Iraq policy and decisions has found that it invaded Iraq without a comprehensive plan in place to secure and rebuild the country. The administration also failed to provide some 100,000 additional U.S. troops that American military commanders originally wanted to help restore order and reconstruct a country shattered by war, a brutal dictatorship and economic sanctions.
“”We didn’t go in with a plan. We went in with a theory,” said a veteran State Department officer who was directly involved in Iraq policy.”
“The military’s plan to defeat Saddam’s army worked brilliantly and American troops have distinguished themselves on the battlefield. However, the review found that the president and many of his advisers ignored repeated warnings that rebuilding Iraq would be harder than ousting Saddam and tossed out years of planning about how to rebuild Iraq, in part because they thought pro-American Iraqi exiles and Iraqi “patriots” would quickly pick up the pieces.

This report is based on official documents and on interviews with more than three dozen current and former civilian and military officials who participated directly in planning for the war and its aftermath. Most still support the decision to go to war but say many of the subsequent problems could have been avoided.

Every effort was made to get those who were interviewed to speak for the record, but many officials requested anonymity because they didn’t want to criticize the administration publicly or because they feared retaliation.

Some things never change.

Poor planning,torture,under-manned, bad intelligence, hundreds of billions of dollars, tax braks for the wealthy during a time of war, poorly-equiped, over-charges by Haliburton KBR, open borders, powerful and determined insurgency, Iraqi’s not quite seeing the U.S. as
liberators yet, soldiers doing multiple tours of duty, weakened military, reduced benefits, thousands maimed in hospitals, but other than that, it’s going well.

Don’t our tax dollars deserve better than political stunts like this? Amazing.

How do we win? How do we know if we are forced out by terrorists or if we have finished the job? Right now no one even knows what the job is, and the suggestion that we leave after we finish it is greeted with attacks, third-grade level political games, and charges of being a coward.
I think that the only way we can win is by declaring what our objectives are. Then, when we have finished them, we can leave. If the objectives are widely published, the terrorists can’t get any traction off of the idea that they forced us out.
Some may say that that will encourage the insurgents to focus on the things we have declared our objectives, in order to prevent us from leaving on our own terms. However, if that were the case it would have two beneficial effects. First, it would focus the insurgent’s efforts so that we know where and at what they will most likely strike, and can prepare for and fortify those positions/objectives.
Second, it would let us know how we are doing. If we aren’t meeting our objectives, we need more troops, more reconstruction teams, more international cooperation, whatever. If we identify these needs in a quantifiable manner, we may actually be able to meet them. In order to declare victory, we have to be able to tell the American people and the world, clearly, what victory is.

What concerns me about this Iraq mess is oil. This country has done nothing to wean itself off of foreign oil through alternative sources, conservation, or rationing. If peak oil becomes a reality (a number of analysts and petro-geologists say it may be here now), walking out of Iraq seems particularly foolhardy, even in the short run. Jeffersonian democracy in Iraq? There is only one example of a democratic country in the Middle East, and it backslides to horrific effect from time to time (Turkey). That reason to be in Iraq is bullshit. With two thirds of the rest of the world’s oil reserves being in countries that hate us, will we indeed just walk right out of Iraq? It seems to me that there are goblins scurrying around in the dark wings of this production— how would a trumped up clash with Syria, or a manufactured international incident with Iran stay the possible pullout of troops in Iraq? No troops to spare? We have a Navy and an Air Force that has been hardly used in Iraq. The Israelis are watching with itchy trigger fingers. I’m beginning to think any sort of ‘redeployment’ is in jeopardy, because I put nothing past this Cheney shadow government. What makes this scenario so treacherous, is this country’s total inability to come to grips with our oil addiction, something that should have been addressed 30 years ago. Thus the folly of captialism, never looking at the big picture, and constantly worrying about next quarter’s profits and whether the shareholders are happy.

I think that the only way we can win is by declaring what our objectives are.

Brian, that’s a great idea. Democrats in Congress have been asking President Bush to do that since Spring 2004.

AP,
I know. I think the administration hasn’t done it yet because if they actually have an objective they might fail (or rather, not be able to say they are winning, I think the failure level is pretty high right now). Or, worse, listen to the Democrats’ ideas on how to succeed.

I think you’re right, Brian. Initially, Bush said he was going to make Iraq a free-market liberal democracy. But that went out the window in late 2003 when he decided to hand the country back to the Iraqis without first securing the country, dismantling Saddam’s socialist economy or even drafting a constitution.

Since then, Bush has defined progress by a series of arbitrary events (handover, election, constitution, etc.) rather than on meaningful progress in stabilizing and uniting the country.

Im not good with words like most of you guys but here is my opinion: I belive bush is a moron, but he has good people behind him actually making his desicions for him the war in Iraq is for a good cause and the reason that there arnt a million troops in Iraq is so that the people dont feel over taken by the US, with a smaller force things might take longer to get done but they will get done if the Iraqies feel like they are being invaded than they might turn against us the democrats have been calling the war a failure since it started but they just want everyone to vote for them in the next election. every politician is a liar and has there own perrsonal agenda but sometimes you have to allow a lie to get something done.

again im not good with words im a uneducated 25 yr old high school drop out so dont rip me a new one for the way i say things i just need some where to voice myself living in a very very blue state of washington every time i voice my opinion im overrun by hippies and baby killers telling me im wrong!

AP,
Interesting post. I generally follow these matters closely and was not aware of Sec. Rice’s proposal.

Slate’s Fred Kaplan had an interesting piece on Murtha’s proposal a study that undergirded it from Center for American Progress, titled Strategic Redeployment: A Progressive Plan for Iraq and the Struggle Against Violent Extremists, written by Lawrence Korb (an assistant secretary of defense in the Reagan administration) and Brian Katulis. Here’s the link: http://www.slate.com/id/2130794/

I don’t disparage Murtha at all. I think he’s an honorable man offering a learned voice to a discussion that a)needs to take place and b)has been hijacked by political posturing on both sides. That said, I disagree with Murtha for a couple reasons.

First, once you get out (or “redeploy‎)it’s tough to get back in without sacrificing a degree of operational effectiveness. Second, leaving too soon, ie before Iraqi forces can shoulder the burden, would leave a dangerous vacuum which our enemies would likely fill. I don’t know Murtha’s proposed timeline. Perhaps you can fill me in and offer your perspective on my objections.

In light of this discussion,today’s Washington Post aricle, which reported: “Barring any major surprises in Iraq, the Pentagon tentatively plans to reduce the number of U.S. forces there early next year by as many as three combat brigades, from 18 now, but to keep at least one brigade “on call‎ in Kuwait in case more troops are needed quickly, several senior military officers said.‎