Democrats & Liberals: Archives

Yea - it’s real. A long, long time ago…

I was young and did not understand that you are not suppose to use your home insurance.

- I had an ice storm that froze my hot water heater (when the electricity was out, then burst.
- Lightning struck my house and took out my stereo.. TV…
- I called my insurance company, but did not make a claim for some crap that was stolen. Since I made the call, it was entered as a claim.

The insurance company started the process of canceling my insurance. I tried several other companies, but was told that I was on a list and that they could not cover me.

The only option I had open to me was a government program that cost 3Xs standard insurance and only covers the mortgage company and absolutely nothing of mine. The I was talking with a friend over a beer who said ‘Hey, change your deductible from $250 to $500. This will prove to them that you will not be making small claims, and they might agree to keep you insured.’

It worked.

Also - for anyone who cares, you should never make a claim on home owners insurance under $4000 (more or less.) If you make more than 2 claims within 3 years, you will be considered high risk and will most likely be dropped from coverage.

I wish everyone would boycott Insurance companies.
As for Health Insurance, we’d all be better off if we get rid of the middle men (Government and Insurance Companies), who take a huge cut, and then try to act like doctors, and try to make medical decisions.
A large part of the reason for high medical insurance is government meddling, insurance company bureaucracy, and crooked lawyers.

I’m seriosly considering self insurance for medical.
Open and start an account with as much as possible, and then pay that $600 per month medical insurance premium into my own accounts.
Then, if I never get sick, I’ll still have the money.

If you seed an account with $20K, and put $300 per month in the account, you’d have $13600 at the end of the 1st year, $17200 at the end of the 2nd year, $20800, $24400, $28000, … , $46K by the end of year 10. That ought to cover most problems. Then, just take out some catastrophic (if you can find any).

And, the good part is, if you never get sick, you’ll still have the money. Not the insurance companies.

I meant seed with $10k (but $20K would be even better).

I provide health insurance for my 4 employees at a cost of $14,500 per year. Each person has a $2000 deductible.

In 3 months, it is suppose to have a 30% increase.

This will not continue long…

In 3 months, it is suppose to have a 30% increase.

This will not continue long…

Posted by: tony at November 11, 2005 03:08 PM

For as long as you let it.
I just switched carriers because they raised my rates 3 times in one year. When I asked them why, I got a letter so full of double talk that it took my lawyer to figure out what they were saying. Even then it took her a while. But after cutting thrugh the BS their answer was basicly “Because we can.”

d.a.n.
That might work for an indivual but I’m not to sure that a company would get by with it. Employees feel that they should be able to use the insurance as much as they feel like it. To go with what you’ve suggested wouldn’t let you keep very much money in the account.
But it is a very good idea for an indivual or family.

Thanks for the info John, and the links. I hadn’t heard of this before today.

What angers me about this is the fact that the insurance companies keep this information secret.
Unlike your personal credit report, in which the information contained in it is open for you to scrutinize, you cannot access your personal information contained in the CLUE. I believe that the government should require insurance companies to show you your CLUE report if you are denied for coverage or if you already have a policy with a company and wish to verify the information contained in it.

CLUE reports are available for anyone to see.

http://www.choicetrust.com

ss:
The ChoiceTrust CLUE reports do not include the all important rating and the history of calls. It merely lists what you already have in your own records, just summarized.

It’s not a CLUE report by definition. What they supply is a summarized incident report which has nothing to do with whether or not you’re insurable in the eyes of an insurance company.

tony wrote: I provide health insurance for my 4 employees at a cost of $14,500 per year. Each person has a $2000 deductible. In 3 months, it is suppose to have a 30% increase. This will not continue long…

This reveals the problem.
Soon, no one will be able to afford it anyway.
So, it won’t matter.
Tony will either have to pass along the cost, or pay it himself, or stop offering insurance.
Either way, like he said, it will not continue long.

Companies are passing the high cost of health insurance onto employees.
My wife’s company just increased her portion 300% and it’s been increasing every year for the last 7 years. Employees aren’t happy about it.

Insurance companies and the government are two middle-men in the system that should be eliminated.

Have you ever thought about the millions of people that work in the medical insurance business ?
Do you think they’re really providing you a necessary service?
Think again. Why pay all of these people unnecessarily?
Why not pay medical providers directly?

PROBLEM:
Government and insurance companies set up a system with themselves as middlemen, resulting in:
[X] skyrocketing costs;
[X] increasing medical insurance premiums;
[X] increasing malpractice insurance for health providers;
[X] increased taxes;
[X] institutionalized medical fraud;
[X] proliferation of fraud, and ridiculously high, multi-million dollar judgements (making the ambulence chasing lawyers rich mostly);
[X] an over-complicated system, confused by too many parties with conflicts of interest;
[X] insurance companies making medical decisions instead of your doctors;
[X] medical care quality becoming increasingly unreliable and expensive;
[X] complicated billing
[X] ALL attempts to control costs have failed, since government or insurance companies are the guarantors of final payment.

SOLUTION:
Direct pay medcial FUND PLAN:
(1) administered by the healthcare providers themselves,
(2) that eliminates all reliance on either the government or insurance companies (middlemen) between health providers and patients,
(3) and eliminates insurance company bean-counters from making medical decisions;
(4) will help control costs, since government and insurance companies are not the guarantors of final payment,
(5) simplified billing
(6) will reduce fraud because there will no longer be an ignorant and indifferent middleman that doesn’t care about fraud, and merely raise insurance premiums or raise taxes;

CONCLUSION:
(1) Get rid of the middlemen (government and insurance companies). They only %^*# up everything they touch.
(2) People pay directly into a medical fund that must be managed by the medical providers themselves, by people with medical knowledge and backgrounds (instead of being hired away by an insurance company to validate services and costs).
(3) It won’t solve everything, but it would be a big step in the right direction. What we’re doing now isn’t working, is it ?

I have group medical insurance at the moment through my wife’s employer ($200 per month just for me (80%/20% and $2000 deductible)), but was checking around the other day, and the costs per month (just for me: age 47) were ridiculous. Most offered what I have now for about $600 per month. The cheapest was about $300 per month with $7500 deductible,70%/30%, riders to boot. Ouch! It would be better to just self insure; open an account, start with as much as possible, and then put that monthly premium $300+ per month into that personal account. And, invest portions of it into CDs and other interest bearing instruments. In five years, it would grow by more than $18K (over $46K in 10 years). Then, if an illness occurs, the money will be there. Medical insurance companies are about to price themselves right out of business, because few will be able to afford it, and those that can, should just self insure. Has anyone seen these medical insurance companies reporting huge loses? No, they’re doing great. They employ hundreds of thousands. And what do you get for all of that cost? They try to make medical decisions. So, many people will (if they can) continue to pay astronomical monthly rates, or self insure, become financially ruined, or go without, or and/or die. I’d rather die than be raped by greedy insurance companies, hospitals gouging and overcharging, and government meddling screwing up everything, and also purposely allowing illegal aliens abuse our health systems (not to mention welfare, law enforcement, national security, and education systems, and driving around with no driver’s license or automobile insurance…but I’ll save that issue for another thread, later).

But, for now, all of the middlemen are raping everyone, gettin’ their undeserved cut, and providing little (if any) net benefit to society.

Medical providers could simply step up to the plate and implement a better system (see above), and we would all probably be much much better off, pay less, and get better care.

And the nation would be much better off after all those millions of middlemen go get real jobs and stop taking advantage of The People.

d.a.n
I have the same type coverage you have. It cost me $210 to have my wife on it. I can get it for $80 just for myself because I’m a company employee. I asked my agent why it was so much higer to have my wife on it. He told me that spouces tend to use the insurance more than the insured indiduial.
I don’t know, maybe it’s because I don’t trust insurance companies, but it sounds like a lame excuse to me.
Auto insurance aint any better. I know that a new car will cost more to replace than an older one. But can ANYONE tell me why I’m more of a risk driving a 318 cu in V8 Dodge Challenger than I am in a 460 cu in V8 Ford LTD? My insurance agent at the time couldn’t give me a straight answer. Then again I don’t think ANY insurance company employee can give a straight answer to anything.

My auto insurance on my pickup is reasonable: $38 per month ($500 deductible; no tickets since 1987);
Our home insurance is reasonable too: $75 per month.

Medical insurance is a joke: $200 (just for me) on my wife’s plan. That’s $2400 a year. But, I don’t use anywhere near $2400 per year in services. It doesn’t make sense. If I put that $2400 per year in a bank, I’d have $10,000+ in four years.
If I buy health insurance elsewhere, it will cost $300 per month with a $7500 deductible; $600 per month for similar to what I have now.
What good is that?
It would be better to put that $7500 in an account, and pay $300 per month into a bank account (and invested in safe instruments).
I just don’t think the high cost of health insurance is worth it anymore.

I don’t think too much of insurance companies.

OK, some provide a service, like my home and auto insurance, but many insurance companies often rip off people. They’re notoriously tricky too. They’ve got so much print on exclusions, what good is it? I don’t know how many people I know that thought they had medical coverage, only to find out the insurance company decided (for various bogus reasons) it wasn’t covered. Many are out-right dishonest, and illegal. That then causes legal expenses.

Health insurance would be affordable if we got rid of the middlemen, and pay the healthcare providers directly. It’s really that simple. I don’t know why they haven’t done it already. The health care providers would probably make more money without the government and insurance companies getting their big fat greedy cut.

You know, I think I might start up a new web-page to promote the plan (above). It would solve a lot of problems, vastly simplify things, provide more profit to the health care providers, and get rid of the parasites ruining health care in this country.

I agree with d.a.n. in that we should boycott the Insurance Industry. I have been saying for years that the next revolution in this country will be against the Insurance Industry.

And, John, thanks for posting this info. I’d not heard of it before.

Your plan to save money yourself in case you become ill rather than pay the insurance company a large sum of money every month, sounds like it is a good one. That is assuming you are healthy and you stay that way.

The risk is that you get sick in some way. I don’t necessarily mean an acute illness such as appendicitis which may cost 10000K for treatment of when you include surgery costs, hospital costs, antibiotic cost etc and then it’s done, your better. But rather, I’m referring to a long term, chronic slowly debilitating illness that will require regular doctors visits, multiple specialists and potentially numerous hospitalization over a period of many years.

Take for instance diabetes. First it will be relatively easy to manage, Maybe a thousand dollars a year for insulin and regular doctors visits, glucose monitoring etc. But as the years go by, even with excellent sugar management (which frankly the average American is not willing to do because it means cutting sugar and carbohydrate intake), a diabetic will eventually develop added problems ranging from kidney failure, visual loss, heart disease, and/or inability of the stomach to contract and move food into the rest of the bowel (call gastroparesis). As these complications develop the annual cost of health care skyrocket into the 100000K per year range or more. Plus as the disease gets worse, the ability of the person to earn money and therefore put away that 600 dollars a month deminishes.

What do you do then. Even if you’ve been saving 600 dollars a month for 30 years, that money will not last long.

With the aging population of the country more people are having more chronic long term medical problems and without insurance they would die. So yes your right, for the amount of health care you personally use, you are paying alot, but you’re not paying for health care you receive. You’re paying for the health care you may need in the future and the premiums you’re paying now are going to pay for those other people who are dealing with complications of diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, kidney failure, lupus, strokes, sickle cell disease, asthma, cancer and any number of other chonic illnesses.

So my advice - go for it… drop you insurance, put that money aside in a medical savings account and hope you never develop a chronic illness. Cause once you do, what insurance company is going to want to sign you up then? Better hope you’re poor enough to qualify for Medicaid or old enough for Medicare. Otherwise you’ll find out just how hard it really is to get medical care in America if you’re uninsured

d.a.n,

The issue with not having insurance is that they have price-agreements with all their doctors. You pay at least twice as much if you aren’t represented by a company. I pay $65 a mos for insurance. I have a $2500 deductible. For a $500 deductible, I’d pay $200 a mos (That’s $1600 more a year…. so if I used up all my deductible, then I’d have a real loss of $400).

That’s the best I’ve seen. Get a high deductible, save the difference. But I can tell you, for the first time in my life I needed my insurance this year (when my newborn went into the NICU).

The bill was $73,000. Just by having insurance, the bill was reduced to $22,000. (What they had agreed to pay). That still meant I had to pay my full out of pocket, which was $7500. (I put the bill on my credit card… that should be fun).

So, my advice… look at the max out of pocket, then look at what it covers, then look at the monthly. Most of the high deductible PPO plans are cheap, and no one tells you what to do.

I filed no paperwork, informed no one. Whatever the doctors wanted to do, they did, no calling Blue Cross.

Julia,

There’s several important things to note about what you just said above (which I and others have also experienced too):

(1) The original bill of $73K . What’s up with that ?
(2) Then reduced to $22K ? What’s going on here ?
(3) Then, you still got stuck with $7500 ?

What’s going on here ?
This is what it is.
The cost was never going to be $22K.
They do that to make people believe they need medical insurance. It’s all a scam.

(4) What they try to initially charge is laughable. They know they’re not going to get that from the insurance or the patient. Like I said, it’s all part of the scam.

(5) My wife was in the hospital overnight. She got an X-Ray and a stress test. BILL: $15K .
It was negotiated ( yeah right, wink wink ) down to $4K .

(6) If you calculate the services being provided, and the cost, there’s something drastically wrong. Here’s another example. I went in for a 10 minute office visit. They checked a urine sample for blood, found none, and sent it off anyway to a lab for more tests that found nothing and totaled $715.00 . Then, they negotiated it down ( wink wink again ) to $370.00 , and my portion is 20% ( $74 ). And, little did I ever know expensive tests of that sort were going to be performed (needlessly).

(7) When you go to the doctor, they rarely tell you what something will cost. And, with all the fine print in the plans, you’re never even sure what is covered or not.

(8) Another tricky thing they like to do is charge you for out-of-network, when it is in-network. With all the exceptions, fine print, riders, and exclusions, it’s easy to pay a lot for insurance and have many things not covered at all. One common problem is the cost of tests. Why should a cholesterol test cost $300 ?

(9) At this rate, no one will be able to afford medical insurance. National health and insurance is not the solution. Government and the insurance companies are the problem. Get rid of these middlemen. They are approaching the point (if not already there) where they provide no net benefit.

(10) The people are also the problem. They want every little hang-nail and scratch looked at. It’s truly ridiculous. People abuse the health care system. This drives up the cost too for everyone.

_______________________________________
PROBLEM:
Government and insurance companies set up a system with themselves as middlemen, resulting in, skyrocketing costs, increasing medical insurance premiums, increasing malpractice insurance for health providers, increased taxes, institutionalized medical fraud, proliferation of fraud, and ridiculously high, multi-million dollar judgements (making the ambulence chasing lawyers rich mostly), an over-complicated system, confused by too many parties with conflicts of interest, insurance companies making medical decisions instead of your doctors, medical care quality becoming increasingly unreliable and expensive, over-complicated billing, ALL attempts to control costs have failed, since government or insurance companies are the guarantors of final payment.

SOLUTION:
Direct pay medcial FUND PLAN administered by the healthcare providers themselves, that eliminates all reliance on either the government or insurance companies (middlemen) between health providers and patients, and eliminates insurance company bean-counters from making medical decisions, will help control costs, since government and insurance companies are not the guarantors of final payment, simplified billing, will reduce fraud because there will no longer be an ignorant and indifferent middleman that doesn’t care about fraud, and merely raise insurance premiums or raise taxes;

CONCLUSION:
Get rid of the middlemen (government and insurance companies). Only let the government monitor to guarantee transparency. People pay directly into a medical fund that must be managed by the medical providers themselves, by people with medical knowledge and backgrounds (instead of being hired away by an insurance company to validate services and costs).

This issue affects me directly. On a 165,000 home property, my last quote for homeowner’s insurance was $1,350 a year, despite the fact that we have never been paid a claim in our history, have no criminal record, and have no tarnishes of anykind on our credit records.

Why? Because we were foolish enough to be honest and tell the our insurer when asking for insurance on our new home, that we built it ourselves. BANG. They turned us down as being too high a subrogation risk. We found we could not get a policy from any other well-known companies either. When we found one that would give us a policy, it was for well more than twice the normal premium on such a property.

We told them we would pay for inspection by an inspector of their choosing. Nope! They weren’t interested. CLUE got us. So, we are self-insuring. Fortunately for us, we built this home way above standard with hurricane ties, 2x8 studded walls, and bounded by dense trees on all sides as a wind break. Lightning rods on the roof, double grounded, all PVC plumbing to prevent rust out leaks, and 2x12 planks secured to second floor joists as a sub-floor giving the house immense torque resistance against high winds.

So, self insurance is the way for us, thanks to CLUE and the industry can just live without the profit that our premiums otherwise would have provided.

How come insurance companies can profile and discriminate, but no one else can??

For example, my parent’s house outside Philadelphia, PA is now paying a few hundred dollars more per year for home owners insurance because they’re now being grouped with the growing city. As the population in the city expands and people move into the suburbs, they punish those already in the suburbs by increasing their premiums because crime stats have increased similar with the city’s. Profiling is apprently legal for insurance companies to do. My parents have yet to make a claim in 20 + years. I guess since it involves money, it’s ok in the eyes of our corrupt ‘pay to play’ government.

Insurance is a legalized “Ponzi” scheme. Also, they’re in bed with the government (notice how they have a HUGE lobby group and TONS of lawyers), therefore, it’s like fighting City Hall. Maybe if enough Americans gathered together to demand better business tactics, there will be a change. However, most people will say…let someone else deal with it so nothing will ever change. Too many sheep tolerate it.

Julia,

You said….

The bill was $73,000. Just by having insurance, the bill was reduced to $22,000. (What they had agreed to pay). That still meant I had to pay my full out of pocket, which was $7500. (I put the bill on my credit card… that should be fun).

As a Mexican National, I just went to the emergency room and got everything for free!! HA HA HA!!!

Why can’t you do the same???

Oh, BTW….Insurance companies KNOW you won’t spend thousands on your lawyer to take them to court and that’s why they get away with these fraudulent games. However, no Insurance CEO is bulletproof. ;) Maybe you’re not speaking their language?

$73,000?? $22,000?? $7,500??

Guys, you need a national single payer health system…

Morning All:

I think that everyone would agree with me when I say that I am very far left in my politics. d.a.n. I like your idea of self insuring oneself, provided that YOU never get sick, I am Talking NEVER EVER. For that $20-25K you have in savings could be wiped out by a weekend stay in the hospital. How do I know, you ask? Well, until late October of 2004, those who know me would tell you, I was the picture of health. Then I was Diagnosed with A stage 4, Gioblastoma Multiforma what’s that you ask, It is a Brain Tumor. The travel alone cost $2K let alone the numerous MRI’s I was treated to. Which by the way, you are billed not only by the facility you receive them from, but also by the Dr. who reads them as well.
They are not cheap, somewhere in the neighborhood of $600 for each MRI, and since the MRI has to be read by a Qualified Neurologist, his fee is usually about $250…I think you understand the costs are astronomical for a catastrophic illness. I Had complications coming out of surgery and spent 48 days in UCLA Medical Center, most of that time in ICU. Any Guess as to what that cost? All I can say is I am glad that although I did not have private Health Insurance, the US Gov’t has picked up the tab for me as I was an active duty Soldier for over 19 years. If I weren’t there is absolutely no way I could pay off the bill in ten lifetimes. So, even though I agree with you in principle, lets face it, the idea is more idealistic, than it is practical.
Those are only my humble opinions.
As Always,
Wayne

David R: “On a 165,000 home property, my last quote for homeowner’s insurance was $1,350 a year” Where do you live and how much did it cost for that robust design??? I live outside Boston and my quote for a $380k home was $860 per year.

As for health costs; my plan for the entire family is $116 per month with Harvard Pilgrim, the #1 plan in the US. $15 office copay, $10/$20 Rx, $250 hospital copay, no lifetime max etc… etc…

So, as a liberal, should I:
(a) Say “Ha Ha, too bad for you” or
(b) Point out Hillary’s plan in 1992 would have solved many of your problems? or
(c) Commiserate and hope you relize how screwed most people are under GOP plutocracy?

Wayne,

Stage 4 and alive after a year! Hang tough bro! And let me know your doctors name (hope I never need him/her, but just in case…)

Dave:

Here’s the surgeon’s name: Donald P. Becker, M.D.

Saved my life, gave me hope.

As Always,
Wayne

I believe that insurance companies are the largest scams ever . I figure it this way if I don’t pay them ,what are they going to do? Come break my legs? If you don’t use your insurance for a full year, I think they should return at least Half of your money .I think that is only fair. I know they collect insurance on everything and anything. Everything that moves. And anything that doesn’t . Then they always have in small …. Print what you really need to know. I cannot believe we are still paying to be protected …Hurry someone tell me who I need protection from .. Is it the Insurance Companies?