Democrats & Liberals Archives

Washington Post Reports Secret CIA Prisons

Yesterday a startling story came out to little fanfare, and it already seems to be slipping through the cracks*: the CIA has been holding terror suspects in secret prisons(registration required). See also today’s story .

Actually, Amnesty International broke this story several months ago. Some may recall reading this quote from Amnesty International's William Schultz:

The U.S. is maintaining an archipelago of prisons around the world, many of them secret prisons, into which people are being literally disappeared, held in indefinite, incommunicado detention without access to lawyers or a judicial system or to their families.

Amnesty International got a lot of grief for making this accusation. Here is what our prez had to say at the time:

I'm aware of the Amnesty International report, and it's absurd... It seemed like (Amnesty) based some of their decisions on the word and allegations by people who were held in detention, people who hate America, people had been trained in some instances to disassemble (sic) -- that means not tell the truth.

If the WP is right, it was Bush who was "disassembling". Who woulda figured?

*It is not even showing on CNN.com today. Apparently it isn't as newsworthy as the story about "bad lasagna".

P.S. President Disassembler is now at 35% approval.

Posted by Woody Mena at November 2, 2005 10:16 PM
Comments
Comment #89940

The CIA is running secret prisons?

If true, I guess they’re not that secret any more!

I’m sure that the CIA will now refer this leak to the appropriate authorities and we’ll soon have an independent prosecutor subpoening phone records, emails and documents in order to get to the bottom of who has treasonously “outed” these prisons and endangered our national security during a time of war. Oh, wait—this leak probably wasn’t made by a Republican. Never mind.

Posted by: sanger at November 2, 2005 10:55 PM
Comment #89949

Wow, I didn’t know the Democrats were so powerful…

Posted by: Woody Mena at November 2, 2005 11:13 PM
Comment #89954

sanger:

The CIA won’t demand an investigation for the same reason the mafia doesn’t call the police. What they are doing is illegal. Therefore, calling the Law would be self-defeating.

I should point out that while Americans don’t care if the CIA is torturing prisoners, the Press in other countries would surely pick this up.

Another Day under Republican Leadership…

Posted by: Aldous at November 2, 2005 11:25 PM
Comment #89956

Why does this surprise anyone? Where have you been the last 1000 years? This is nothing new to any government body of any era in the history of ruling bodies. Government is always going to do things behind the scenes and contrary to their own laws. Laws are designed to control the populace, not the law makers themselves. You might say, “No one is above the law” and site some recent political trials, but in reality most officials are expendable and when someone needs to take the fall to keep up the greater facade then someone will. It is for our own good that the Governments keep us in the dark and do what they do. We are too stupid to use that information wisely and they need to protect us from our own failings. Thank goodness we have people who are willing to deal with the devil on our behalf, otherwise we’d all be going to hell. Okay, nuff said, yo!

Posted by: Steele at November 2, 2005 11:39 PM
Comment #89959

This story is 2 years old. I’m starting to lose hope. If I didn’t have family and friends that mean the world to me I would have moved to Canada 5 years ago, hell maybe even Mexico.

Posted by: whatthehell at November 2, 2005 11:52 PM
Comment #89963

whatthehell:

Don’t let anyone stop you. It’s a free country!!

Craig

Posted by: Craig Holmes at November 3, 2005 12:00 AM
Comment #89967

I am so surprized this is news in wartime.

Posted by: Craig Holmes at November 3, 2005 12:11 AM
Comment #89979

Woody,

Thanks for bringing this out. Sanger has an interesting spin. Lets investigate and prosecute the people who expose the corruption in the Bush administration in stead of holding Bush accountable for anything. Yea, that will work. Amazing… that our country could sink this low - engage in Soviet style tactics - and - nobody screams - well - a few liberals - but they aren’t anybody. Does America stand for nothing? How can Republicans justify this… Forget honor. Forget morality. Forget ethics. Forget law. Forget human decency. None of that matters. This has been coming out. It is coming out. It will come out… and we lose the moral high ground… which is just about the only advantage that we had in this fight.

Posted by: Ray G. at November 3, 2005 12:46 AM
Comment #89980

Oh… I forgot. The Republicans are the “values” people. They beat us on values… The American people like their values better than ours. Elections have consequences. The American people are getting the government that they deserve.

Posted by: Ray G. at November 3, 2005 12:54 AM
Comment #89983

This is an outrage! Who are these barbarians? Have
they no moral compass? And, if we condone torture,
what about American troops or American citizens who
are captured by an enemy? Will we face torture, too,
in retaliation for such misdeeds? We have thousands
of citizen soldiers stationed around the world who
would be subjected to the ramifications of such a
policy.

This is such a violation of our values, that combined
with the Bush doctrine of pre-emptive war, we are
becoming the Nazi’s of the 21st. Century. Please,
please, write the paper and let us together take a
public stand to oppose and to expose such policies.

I don’t want to live in a land of which I am ashamed,
and should VP Chaney and his minions get their way, I
will no longer be able to proudly call myself
“American”. I proudly served as a U.S. Army Reserve
Military Intelligence Officer for 16 years. I know
that there are those who, if turned loose, would
violate principles of human rights. But, the vast
majority of Officers and Enlisted personnel who serve
in our Armed Forces, are decent, humane, individuals
who carry their values with them in doing their duty.
They deserve better leadership at the highest levels
of our government. Our Veterans must speak out
against these barbaric policies. Our citizens must
speak out!

Senator Rockerfeller is to be commended for his vocal
opposition to such abuses of power. He deserves our
public support in his call for Congressional oversight
of our Intelligence Community as it serves the current
Administration. Secret prisons, secret policies, and
secret directives by a rogue President and Vice
President must be reigned-in and exposed to the light
of day. They seem intent upon reversing 220 years of
U.S. history and values.

Let us also support Senator Harry Ried in his effort
to get the Senate Intelligence Committee to
investigate the role our current Administration played
in distorting U.S. intelligence as a prelude to war in
Iraq. Were we mis-lead into supporting an illegal and
immoral war? How? By whom?

Its time for some answers.

Posted by: Roger Waun at November 3, 2005 1:03 AM
Comment #90005

I’ll bet Valerie and George are behind these prisons.

Posted by: bugcrazy at November 3, 2005 7:25 AM
Comment #90014

Well, maybe someone should go ask the aliens how the feel about being kept at Area 51 for all of these years. Don’t they have rights?

Is it absurd that the President would deny any knowledge of “secret” CIA prisons?

Posted by: George in SC at November 3, 2005 9:05 AM
Comment #90025

All
I have a hypo for you:

Suppose a terror suspect was nabbed in NYC.

He has a suitcase bomb hidden somewhere in the city due to explode in 2 hours.

You are his interogattor.

You have 2 hours to find its location.

What do you do?

Do you torture him to get the information?

Suppose he is a hard core…super hard core…time is running out…one hour left…

A collegue of yours steps up to him and cuts off four fingers.

He screams but for the first time you detect fear in his eyes.

Now there are 45 minutes left.

Your collegue wants to cut off his ears and nose.

What is your response?

Posted by: sicilianeagle at November 3, 2005 9:40 AM
Comment #90028

By the way,with 30 minutes to go Homeland Security confirms that the bomb in that suitcase is nuclear.

Posted by: sicilianeagle at November 3, 2005 9:42 AM
Comment #90029

All

Now,what were you saying about Americian intelligence techniques?

I say throw the Marquis di Queensbury rules out and put them next to the Geneva Convention rules.

Posted by: sicilianeagle at November 3, 2005 9:45 AM
Comment #90033

Come on eagle … you have to ask nicely. If you are nice to him he will be nice to you.
Don’t you understand that?
If you cut his fingers off one of our military personnel will have their head chopped off or worse… be tortured.
It’s our fault they don’t follow the rules ya know.

Posted by: bugcrazy at November 3, 2005 9:49 AM
Comment #90035

It is for our own good that the Governments keep us in the dark and do what they do. We are too stupid to use that information wisely and they need to protect us from our own failings. Thank goodness we have people who are willing to deal with the devil on our behalf, otherwise we’d all be going to hell. Okay, nuff said, yo!
Posted by: Steele at November 2, 2005 11:39 PM

It is a fundamental cornerstone of a democracy that no one shall be deprived of their liberty, save in accordance with law. It is a fundamental human right, that no one shall be subjected to cruel or unusual punishment. Indeed, it is first principle of law that no one should be punished without lawful authority. The US calls for democracy across the world. It claims to stand for human rights, and challenges regimes globally for shortcomings with respect to democracy and human rights. The US constitution provides protection to accused persons against the Executive through the separation of powers. The executive is answerable to the judicial branch in exercising its powers. I read many comments on this blog site from Americans proud of what their country and constitution represents. This kind of behaviour on the part of the executive, and their apologists amongst the citizens, sullies the good name of the US and besmirches the values promulgated in your own Constitution. It is not how a civilisation behaves in normal times that is its measure, but how it behaves in abnormal times. Human and democratic rights are indivisible and immutable. Tamper with them, and the whole structure is damaged to its foundations. Shame on this administration. If I were an American, I would feel deeply ashamed that my countrys’ ideals were being violated and raped.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at November 3, 2005 9:53 AM
Comment #90043

What about the ‘host’ countries? Do they not bear responsibility?
Somehow ALL the blame ends up on the shoulders of the Bush administration/the USA.
Is it the differences in the constitutions that make it worse for the U.S.?
Or is it because other countries aren’t as ‘well known’ for trying to uphold personal freedoms?
Just what is the difference?
Maybe other democratic countries don’t want to step up to the plate and take the lead because they see how every move by the U.S. is ridiculed.
It isn’t just the ‘black sites’. It isn’t just ‘waterboarding’.

Posted by: bugcrazy at November 3, 2005 10:23 AM
Comment #90044

The story on these prisons is supported by the fact that Cheney’s been lobbying to block or weaken a recently-passed law “that would bar the U.S. military from engaging in ‘cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment’ of detainees, from hiding prisoners from the Red Cross, and from using interrogation methods not authorized by a new Army field manual”.

This is a more blatent endorsement of torture as a policy than I’ve ever seen before from the US.

It’s also a fact that the US had adhered to Geneva’s article 3 for the last 50 years - that’s a dozen previous administrations - thru Korea and Vietnam and the Cold War, and even though some of our enemies, like the Viet Cong, did not “play fair”.

The 9/11 Commission recommended that the US adhere to Geneva (pg 380).

The Red-Team follow ups to the quote don’t have anything new, as far as I can see. Argument 1 “the ends justify the means” and Argument 2 “they’re worse than we are” could be used to justify just about any activity, no matter how vile. Argument 3 is “they’re terrorists, torture is too good for them”, but in fact, they’re only suspects, not convicts.

Argument 4 is coming: “it’s just some bad apple jailors that will be investigated and punished”. In which case, why is Cheney pushing for being cruel, inhuman, and degrading as a matter of policy?

Posted by: William Cohen at November 3, 2005 10:25 AM
Comment #90050

The definition of a perfect crime is one that nobody ever heard about or, that there is evidence of it ever taking place.

Now we have secret CIA prisons?

Who actually blew the whistle on the “secret” prisons, and for what purpose.

Posted by: steve smith at November 3, 2005 10:42 AM
Comment #90053
Now there are 45 minutes left.

Your collegue wants to cut off his ears and nose.

What is your response?

Okay Eagle, I’m with ya, but only if Jack Bauer is in charge and not some chickenhawks.

Posted by: Ms Schwamp at November 3, 2005 10:51 AM
Comment #90058

sicilianeagle,

Using the ABC or CBS movie of the week scenario to show that you approve of torture has done noyhing to further your point.

Here’s a Hypo:

You leave a friends house and are walking home late at night.
You are picked up because the people in the van think you are a Muslim that fits the description or your name happens to appear on the Terror list, you know the list, it has names of 5yr. olds and senior citizens mistakenly harassed because there are more than one Joe Johnson in the world.

They take you to an unknown location and begin terrorizing you and denying you your basic rights.

They fly you to a foreign country that not only condones torture, but throughout the years, have perfected their techniques.

You are held and beaten for months. Your family has no idea where you are.

Some crack-pot, we’ll call him Sgt. Sicilianeagle starts cutting off your fingers and asking questions that you have no way of answering.

You are eventually released after 2 years due to a U.S. military P.R. situation, minus 4 fingers and emotionally and physically scarred.

You eventually return home with a deep seeded hatred for the United States of America. A country you have loved your whole life has betrayed you. You form a sleeper-cell in the U.S. and establish ties to Al Queda and begin financing your plot to kill American citizens.

You succeed in your attack and U.S. officials ask the world to condemn your organization as an evil, cowardly terrorist gang with no morals.
The world responds “F-You” you hypocrites, you torture detainees who have done nothing wrong and attack countries based on doctored intelligence. You’re on your own.
The citizens of the United States realize just how low the United States has sank.

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at November 3, 2005 11:07 AM
Comment #90060

This sort of thing has been going on forever. However, we should stop it, because it hurts us, more than it helps us. The consequences of torture could be worse.

SicilianEagle,
Regarding your hypothetical.
How about sodium pentathol, and/or hypnotism ?
Or, with 30 minutes to go, take the bomb and the terrorist to the closest underground and/or remote location, and leave them both there.
: ]

Actually, your hypothetical presents a tough decision.
However, in your hypothetical, it’s understandable that torture, in that instance, is accepted by many as justifiable.
But, it’s also understandable and defensible if torture is not the last resort.
Of course, that won’t help all that die if the bomb isn’t located and disarmed.

There was a few episodes like this on the FOX series, 24 .

But, the difference between your hypothetical and what’s actually going on, is that the situation is not that extreme, and it’s not about a nuclear bomb that’s about to detonate.
Thus, I don’t see the necessity to condone torture.

Posted by: d.a.n at November 3, 2005 11:23 AM
Comment #90062

Andre M. Hernandez,

Good! That’s what I mean.
Torture hurts us more than it helps.
It’s not just a moral question.
It’s a pragmatic issue too.

Posted by: d.a.n at November 3, 2005 11:25 AM
Comment #90065

I agree that these secret prisons are an outrage. The United States needs to treat ununiformed illegal combatants in strict accordance with the Geneva Conventions—which means shoot them as soon as they’re captured.

As far as these torture allegations go, they should be investigated and dealt with whenever confirmed. Unfortunately, however, the truth behind most of them is that they’re merely the public relations defense strategies of terrorists—which are then eagerly picked up and broadcast by the knuckle-dragging slack-jawed internationalist left which has hijacked organizations like Amnesty International and whose only true agenda now is unthinking anti-Americanism. These people, the same ones who once sided with the Soviet Union, deserve to be treated just as the Bush administration does treat them—with scorn.

You can murder literally millions of people, but the moron-convergence/internationalist left will overlook and save their outrage for uncomfirmed stories that a single American guard might have urinated on a Koran.

As Europe itself slowly but surely moves (regard the current effort of radicalized Muslim youth to burn down Paris) toward a state of base and prostrate submission to their Islamicist rulers, it will be interesting to see what if any measures of self-defense they will take in their dying gasps. Will there be torture? Will they shake themselves from moral and phsyical cowardice and arrest, detain or deport terrorists? Will they then be criticized—through uncomfirmed rumor, innuendo and the statements by the criminal Islamicists themselves? And will they bow to such criticism?

Posted by: sanger at November 3, 2005 11:32 AM
Comment #90066

When I read about this yesterday, it made me totally sick to my stomach. Thanks for posting this article Woody — and you’re right about the media not giving it enough notice.
Ray G. - very well said.

Posted by: Adrienne at November 3, 2005 11:34 AM
Comment #90071

SE,

I have a hypo for you: Suppose a terror suspect was nabbed in NYC. He has a suitcase bomb hidden somewhere in the city due to explode in 2 hours. You are his interogattor. You have 2 hours to find its location. What do you do? Do you torture him to get the information?

The famous ticking bomb case for torture.
I think most people will agree that in such case torture usage is a still evil but necessary mean to save many people lives.

The problem is that the people kept in (secret or not) CIA prisons are not suspected of bomb hiding. In fact nobody knows what they’re suspected of, not even themself!

In most prisonners case, it’s more like this:
Suppose a terror suspect was nabbed *somewhere*.
You are his interogattor.
What do you do?
Do you torture him to get *any* information?
Suppose he is a hard core…super hard core… and you didn’t get usefull information yet…
A collegue of yours steps up to him and cuts off four fingers.
He screams but for the first time you detect fear in his eyes.
Your collegue wants to cut off his ears and nose.
What is your response?

Remember, innocent before proved guilty. Evidences are most of the time lacking. Does torture an adequate response to get evidences? Does the lost of moral values worlwide worth it?

Nobody can keep *forever* safe *every* citizens he’s in charge off. It’s a matter of the price you’re ready or not to pay for this safety. Does losing all moral ground a price you’re ready to pay, even if we do know that one day terrorist(s) will successfully hit again, whatever you paid?

- Frenchly yours,

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at November 3, 2005 11:53 AM
Comment #90081

Paul in Euroland:
“If I were an American, I would feel deeply ashamed that my countrys’ ideals were being violated and raped.”

Many of us are very deeply ashamed, and extremely angry, Paul. And we realize that through these kind of actions the target being drawn on America can only continue to grow. But unfortunately, right now we cannot do enough to stop our morally bankrupt leaders — that is why the ‘06 elections are going to be so vitally important.

Posted by: Adrienne at November 3, 2005 12:22 PM
Comment #90082

SE,

I forgot to add that torture is not a warantly to success. Don’t forget that extremist terrorists are ready and trained to suffer and die for their goals.

Sanger,

As Europe itself slowly but surely moves (regard the current effort of radicalized Muslim youth to burn down Paris) toward a state of base and prostrate submission to their Islamicist rulers, …

Check news more deeper, it’s more some youth effort to burn down some cars in some Paris suburbs after an irresponsible politician did name-calling on (all of) them while visiting/doing presidential photo-op in one of these suburbs. Plus last week police chasing too kids pushed them to refuging into a power block and dying accidentally there, hence the current aftermath…

it will be interesting to see what if any measures of self-defense they will take in their dying gasps.

If we are really *that* dying, I don’t see the point to self-defense! Better keep in rest, no?

Will there be torture? Will they shake themselves from moral and phsyical cowardice and arrest, detain or deport terrorists?

I dunno for other EU countries, but in France we do have for long time already a special “Terrorist” judge and a law that allow him many bypasses for counter-terrorism actions. So here in France we *do* arrest and detain them. The difference with US seems to be that we charge them in justice trial and we don’t out-sourcing them to others countries.

Who’s the coward here? The one that don’t use torture for moral sake (and because it’s not that efficience, too) or the one that use it but don’t have the balls to do it himself in his own soil publicly while still saying “I’m still Geneva Conventions ratifier” ???

Funny how you considerer cowardise having the moral value to be against torture. Or death penalty for that matter. Or warmongering.
I always thought it needs more courage to love than to hate, to fight for peace than for war, to acknowlegde an error than lying/cover it.

We don’t share the same definition of courage or cowardise, I guess.

Your frenchly,

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at November 3, 2005 12:24 PM
Comment #90131

Dear Philippe, Paul and our other European friends: You of course have your own societies’ jerks to deal with - well so do we. Like you, we will eventually prevail and spare you and the rest of the world, not to mention our own country, from the sheer incompetence and corruption of the Bush administration and the dumbasses who put them in power. We have some election-rigging issues to work out, as well as some de-programming from the propogandistic bullshit our people have been fed for the past five years. However, rest assured that we will push our freak element aside and let mature adults run our country again. Trust me, the majority of Americans are not like some of the fools you see in here - we do believe in decency and human rights and are rightfully disgusted by what the bush Administration has done in our name. They will be stopped - don’t you worry.

Posted by: roger at November 3, 2005 3:18 PM
Comment #90133

… never underestimating the levels to which the Bush/Cheney cabal will stoop, and just to save myself from a visit by the Secret Service I need to clarify: When I say “they will be stopped”, I mean ONLY in legal, moral and ethical means. Doing so otherwise would make me as bad as the reactionary right.

Posted by: roger at November 3, 2005 3:20 PM
Comment #90146

We have a good idea of how much money Galloway was paid by Saddam to oppose the liberation of Iraq, but is it known how much Chirac was paid? Just wondering.

Posted by: sanger at November 3, 2005 3:41 PM
Comment #90164

Eagle,

I have a serious question for you. When you (you personally) think of the people around you (either as individuals and/or as groups), and you characterize them in your mind as “good” or “bad”, what do you base your judgement on? I’m not trying to ask a trick question, and I promise I have a good reason for asking.

Posted by: ElliottBay at November 3, 2005 4:10 PM
Comment #90174

Do you all think we should go back to isolationism? Wouldn’t that be the easiest and less costly way to go about dealing with terrorists?

Posted by: DAVID at November 3, 2005 4:22 PM
Comment #90179
Paul in Euroland: “If I were an American, I would feel deeply ashamed that my countrys⦣x20AC;™ ideals were being violated and raped.”

Many of us are very deeply ashamed, and extremely angry, Paul. And we realize that through these kind of actions the target being drawn on America can only continue to grow. But unfortunately, right now we cannot do enough to stop our morally bankrupt leaders — that is why the ‘06 elections are going to be so vitally important.

There is something we can do.
Something we should have been doing all along.
Something that been right there under our noses the whole time.
Something we need to learn to use wisely, that
is really the most simple, easy, quick, safe, inexpensive, non-partisan, peaceful, easy to understand, easy to communicate and share, and most responsible action to peacefully force a balance of power (not simply shift) between government and the people.

But voter’s have got to get past the partisan brainwashing, while both main parties simply take turns being irresponsible and unaccountable.
Voters must take off their partisan blinders.
I’ve been guilty of it too, and have (in the past) been seduced into the clever, distracting, petty partisan bickering and divisiveness, while the PCs (Political Class) continue to run the country into the ground.
_________________________________________
I see PC people !

Posted by: d.a.n at November 3, 2005 4:29 PM
Comment #90193

Remember Senator Durbin, and his remarks about the US coming to resemble Nazis, with Soviet gulags, and so on?

At the time, I thought he was pretty over the top, and that an apology was in order. Who would have thought Durbin was right? It seems we really are running a gulag.

What shame, what disgrace the Bush administration brings upon us. We’re powerful, but no longer respected. We want others to aspire towards our ideals, but instead others fear us.

Posted by: phx8 at November 3, 2005 5:10 PM
Comment #90195

Roger…

Like you, we will eventually prevail and spare you and the rest of the world, not to mention our own country, from the sheer incompetence and corruption of the Bush administration and the dumbasses who put them in power.

“The dumbasses who put them in power”?

In 2000, that would be the guys in Philadelphia with long white hair who wrote the…Uhhhh…let me think here…OH YEAH! The Constitution.

In 2004, that would be the majority of the American voters.

While I, like you, would like to “get rid of” the majority of the American voters AND the Constitution, there might be a slight problem.

We’d have to elect Aldous president so he could ship the majority of American voters to Iraq…and revert to “city-states” form of government that Greece embraced.


Trust me, the majority of Americans are not like some of the fools you see in here

No…they ARE some of the fools you see in here.


…we do believe in decency and human rights and are rightfully disgusted by what the bush Administration has done in our name. They will be stopped - don’t you worry.

HEY! We’ve already stopped them! It’s called “this is Bush’s 2nd term and he can’t run again”!!! LET’S PARTY!!!!

Posted by: Jim T at November 3, 2005 5:11 PM
Comment #90216

Most of you:

The best comment of the month is being called Sargent Sicilian Eagle above.

Hystericial.

Just like most of the comments in reply to my query.

I have a good idea:Why don’t the pansy-asses here write a petition?

Ya,that’s the ticket.

Maybe it can be tacked on to the Move On Dog,Move on petition posted above!

You can ask the terrorists to fight by the rules.

I bet if you phrase it with the words,”pretty please with mustard on it” they will agree with you and only engage in open battles on big big fields.

The posts that I have read today are EXACTLY the reasons that the Republicans are in charge…and will be for the forseeable future.

Me?If a terror suspect knew the location of a nuclear bomb and I had a half hour to get it out of him,I don’t give a shit what body part I have to cut off in order to elicit the information form him.

And I hope that is exactly what is done in the real world.
That is why they call it “WAR”

Posted by: sicilianeagle at November 3, 2005 6:10 PM
Comment #90228

sicilianeagle,

Me?If a terror suspect knew the location of a nuclear bomb and I had a half hour to get it out of him,I don’t give a shit what body part I have to cut off in order to elicit the information form him.

First, if he know location of a nuclear bomb I guess he’s not anymore a suspect but indeed a terrorist, rigth?
Second, I though we already all agreed on the ticking bomb case justifiable usage of torture!?
Also, a hint here: some body parts should be preserved if you hope to get any information: head , heart, lungs come to mind for example.

What you didn’t told us so far is your position on the wider common non-ticking bomb case usage of torture. You get a terrorist suspect that you know nothing about what he may know. Did you use torture to get information, if any, from him?

And I hope that is exactly what is done in the real world. That is why they call it “WAR”

That’s called “TORTURE”. Check word definition.

Your frenchly,

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at November 3, 2005 6:49 PM
Comment #90238

Ah, now we see the Sicilian Defense…
Is that what is done in the “real world”? In the world in which I reside, not one terrorist have ever been in possession of a nuclear bomb. However, in the world which I reside, my country apparently has set up a gulag of institutions for torturing people. They’re supposedly terrorists. No one knows who they are. No one knows how many of them are incarcerated. No one knows for how long. No one even knows what they’re accused of.

Of course, our CIA never, never makes mistakes, eh? And our government would never, never be tempted to… oh, I don’t know… maybe, well, maybe lie a little bit about matters of national security, right? Nope, no slippery path there, no way.

Posted by: phx8 at November 3, 2005 7:15 PM
Comment #90293

Thanks for the comments, everyone. It is especially good to hear from the people from overseas. A few responses:

Sanger,

You do make a legitimate point that this is a breach of security. But it is not as if we know the names of the people in the prisons, which would be more like the Plame affair. WP even left out European countries involved, although I since heard them on NPR. (One was Poland, I can’t remember the other.)


Sicilian Eagle,

I will admit that there may be very narrow circumstances when torture is acceptable. If it ever happened though, I would expect a full public airing of the facts — what happened and why. Just hiding people away in a hole and denying that they exist is not compatible with a democracy. We can’t control the government in a state of ignorance.

George in SC,

Yes, obviously, if Bush acknowledged them they wouldn’t be secret. But why did their very existence have to be a secret? It makes people suspect the worst.

Bugcrazy,

I absolutely, positively agree that the host countries share the blame. The prisons are within their borders after all. I am picking on Bush because he is MY president, but I think Poles should be concerned about what is happening in their country. (Actually, they seem to have a bad habit of letting other countries… oh never mind.) The EU is looking into this (Poland being a member), and I think they should.

Thanks again for everyone who is paying attention to this, even people who don’t think it is a big deal. We don’t need more stories about bad lasagna.

Posted by: Woody Mena at November 3, 2005 8:13 PM
Comment #90309

I am having second thoughts about my parenthetical comment about Poland’s “habit”. Let’s call it a brain cramp and forget it…

Posted by: Woody Mena at November 3, 2005 8:23 PM
Comment #90364

Woody,
I am okay with you picking on Bush because he is your President.
What I am not okay with is the fact that the U.S. was named and no other country was because of the fear of backlash against them from Muslim extremists.
No one seems to have a problem with any backlash against the U.S..
The attacks of terror by Al queda enthusiasts started a long time ago and did not only target the U.S..
It may be our CIA running these ‘black sites’ but the host countries let them be on their land.
Why?
The way the story is told … the ‘blame’ is placed directly on the U.S. - AGAIN!
I get pretty tired of the rest of the world either ‘going along’ with U.S. or basically doing nothing while claiming to have all the answers.
People around the world are watching us. They see that there is a partisan argument going on. Why wouldn’t they pick sides? Why wouldn’t they jump on the blame America First bandwagon? It gives them the opportunity to deny, or pretend, that their own nations could have contributed to the whole terror problem we are ALL facing.

Posted by: bugcrazy at November 3, 2005 9:54 PM
Comment #90392

Elliot Bay

Simple.

I base it on 2000 years of 100% Sicilian genetics.

Can’t explain it if you ain’t one.

If you are one,no need to

Posted by: sicilianeagle at November 4, 2005 12:47 AM
Comment #90394

Phillippe

Trouble in France,huh?

Sorry about that my friend.

Jacques underestimated the enemy.

What is the current Muslim population there?

Woody
I forgot to say that the piece you wrote was excellent.

We have crossed intellectual(?) swords before and I would not have bothered to post here unless it was a serious issue.

Seriously,as my silly hpyo showed…even here…on the most liberal of left sites….some would at least tacitly agree with the use of torture in the most extreme circumstances.

Working backwards,if it’s ok to torture someone with a nuke,isn’t it ok to torture someone who knows the location of every IED on the Bagdad highway?

How about torturing someone who has knowledge of an immenient plane high jacking?

If you could go back in time ,and had inside info on the name of only one highjacker,wouldn’t you approve torture to find the other 12?

Bottom line:Torture is a tool to be used by the skilled.

If we are talking here about indiscrimenent torture(torturing someone for say,stealing a loaf of bread),surely no one would ever approve.

The secret prisons have been around for decades.

I think they will be around a long time more.

15%?

Geez,that’s getting close to the Sunni number in Iraq.

Just wondering.

Posted by: sicilianeagle at November 4, 2005 1:06 AM
Comment #90400

Eagle,

Let me rephrase - Do you base your decisions about people on what they say or on what they do?

Posted by: ElliottBay at November 4, 2005 1:30 AM
Comment #90422

Sicilian Eagle,

What we have here is the proverbial slippery slope. I opened the door to terrorism under very peculiar circumstances. I think using as an ordinary tactic to stop the insurgency would be a horrible idea. First of all, it would destroy our moral credibility. Secondly, our captured soldiers would be in BIG trouble. Suppose some insurgents capture one of our women in uniform. She may know things that could save their lives. You could just imagine the horrible things they might do in the name of “intelligence gathering”.

I was thinking that torture is kind of like cannibalism. It is probably justified under certain bizarre circumstances (e.g., plane crash in the mountains), but if you are going to make a regular thing of it…

Posted by: Woody Mena at November 4, 2005 8:56 AM
Comment #90423

Sorry, not awake. I meant I opened the door to TORTURE, not terrorism.

Posted by: Woody Mena at November 4, 2005 8:57 AM
Comment #90424

Sicilianeagle,

Your ticking-bomb scenario was ridiculous.
Your excuse that you’re scicilian therefore you do not have anything fact-based or intelligent to say only wanna-be tough guy rhetoric is equally ridiculous.


Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at November 4, 2005 8:59 AM
Comment #90437

It may be our CIA running these ‘black sites’ but the host countries let them be on their land.
Why?
The way the story is told … the ‘blame’ is placed directly on the U.S. - AGAIN!
I get pretty tired of the rest of the world either ‘going along’ with U.S. or basically doing nothing while claiming to have all the answers.
People around the world are watching us. They see that there is a partisan argument going on. Why wouldn’t they pick sides? Why wouldn’t they jump on the blame America First bandwagon? It gives them the opportunity to deny, or pretend, that their own nations could have contributed to the whole terror problem we are ALL facing.
Posted by: bugcrazy at November 3, 2005 09:54 PM

The fact is bug, that the countries at the centre of these allegations, are what Bush himself described as “New Europe” ; Poland and Romania. There are two countries still emerging from the Soviet shadow and developing as democracies. They have looked to the US particularly, as the principal partner in the cold war which resisted the Soviet empire. The US is interested in bringing them along as clients who may be useful, not least in establishing military and air bases. No doubt the US can do much economic good for these countries too. The point is however, that they are very much in thrall to the US, and they have hopes to profit from US investment and are therefore amenable to US pressure to cooperate with its agenda.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at November 4, 2005 9:42 AM
Comment #90462

Torture is arguably immoral, ineffective as a source of gathering information and, against International laws governing war and captivity.

It is argued by the anti-torture advocates that the US should refrain from using it to extract information from prisoners if, for no other reason than to set an example for the rest of the world to follow. The underlying reason I suspect is that we do not want our own prisoners tortured.

Despite data to the contrary (naturally there is no data showing positive results of torture) about the uselessness of torture in information gathering, it continues to be used throughout the world.

It is used by countries internally and it is outsourced in a subversive manner.

IMO laws regarding the rules of engagement will not and, has not deterred torture. The “physician heal thyself” concept is not effective, nor is the “monkey see, monkey do” or even the “do as I say, not as I do”, having the needed impact regarding this issue. Something else is needed to level the playing field.

Until then, IMO we are left with abstinance for ourselves knowing full well that “what’s good for the goose, is not good for the gander” elsewhere in the world.

Posted by: steve smith at November 4, 2005 10:47 AM
Comment #90490

Andre

Chill out.

Don’t answer the nuke question then.Don’t answer the plane hijack question either.

You may not like the answer you draft.

Your problem,not mine.

Ever wonder why only one Soviet diplomat was kidnapped in Lebanon during the 70’s and 80’s where scores of foreigners were being kidnapped every day?

Here’s the story:

One Soviet embasssy officilai was kidnapped but was released 24 hours later.

Why?

Answer:The drawn and quartered body of a son of the local fundamentalist mullah was found earlier that day in front of the mullah’s front door.

The Soviets sent a strong message.

None were kidnapped again.

“To defeat the enemy,you must become him” Sun Tsu


Elliot Bay
I guess you deserve an answer to your trick question/.

Neither.

I look in their eye.

Peer into their soul.

Within a milisecond I can see if I am dealing with a black hearted person or a white hearted person.

This gift has served me well,and I am never wrong…except in choosing wives,of course.

They nor I have to say anything.

On a cerebral level,I read body language.

Another gift

Posted by: sicilianeagle at November 4, 2005 1:01 PM
Comment #90504

Eagle,
It isn’t a trick question. It’s an honest attempt at civilized discourse. So I’ll repeat it. Do you base your judgement about someone’s “goodness” or “badness” based on what they say or on what they do?

I’ll answer first, to prove my point: I was always taught by my parents that “actions speak louder than words”, so I base my judgement on what people do.

Posted by: ElliottBay at November 4, 2005 1:56 PM
Comment #90512

Sun Tzu was a dick. The soviet/lebanon story is simplified crap. SE’s heart seems very black indeed.

Posted by: roger at November 4, 2005 2:18 PM
Comment #90542

Elliot

I neither base my judgement about people’s “goodness” or “badness” on what they say or what they do.

Rather I base it on personal instinct so I can’t answer your question.

Sorry.

Roger

Nice eloquent post.

Hope you didn’t plagerize.

Rutus audiorum

Posted by: sicilianeagle at November 4, 2005 3:23 PM
Comment #90548

Eagle,
Rutus audiorum? So much for civilized discourse.

Posted by: ElliottBay at November 4, 2005 4:01 PM
Comment #90658

Elliot Bay

Sorry.

That comment was meant for Roger(not you) who posted right after your last post .

That was in response to his comment about a black heart.

If you base judgements on what people do,I think that isn’t completely right.

For example:George Washington,Thomas Jefferson and many other drafters key Revolotionary War figures ,beside getting America “free” from Great Bitian,also were slave owners.

If what they do is dispositives,then they were scum bags.

Mussolini had the trains running on time in Italy and turned the economy around there.

Since those are good things,then he wouln’t be a scum bag.

Bin Laden killed people..therefore he would be a scum bag but then again he prays 5 times a day.

It’s not that simple.

I think,if you want an answer,that a “totality of the circunstances” approach is the more appropriate anwser.

Same goes with what they say.

Kennedy for example has preached Health care reform.That is great.

Kennedy also left a floater up at the Cape 25 years ago.That’s bad.

It is impossible to make that distinction on the politicial level because a politician inherently has to do things (like take money from special interest groups,pander to the wealthy in order to run his campaign,ect.)that he would not ordinarily do in life.

Thus the totality of the circumstance is what I use.

Posted by: Sicilianeagle at November 5, 2005 6:42 AM
Comment #90781

whatthehell,

Don’t leave for Canada or Mexico. Stay and fight for what you think is right. Every voice and every vote is needed.

“Secret Prisons”. In spite of the fact that the cat is now out of the bag, can there be a valid reason to have prisons in undisclosed locations/countries. Could it be for the safety of the detainee/prisoner. Other than sheer speculation I have seen no evidence that these prisons exist for the purpose of “agressive interrogation/torture”.

We have immediately “leaped” to the conclusion that these prisons exist for some clandestine reason. More speculation, less evidence.

Even proponents of the government “opening the books for all to read”, appreciate that there are components of government operation, notably those that impact certain national security and/or military actions must be at least temporarilly “secret”.

“If I told you I would have to kill you” does have some application.

Posted by: steve smith at November 6, 2005 11:33 AM
Comment #90934

Steve,

“Secret Prisons”. In spite of the fact that the cat is now out of the bag, can there be a valid reason to have prisons in undisclosed locations/countries.

I think we all could agree that there is actually a valid reason. Morality could be, however, another story.

Could it be for the safety of the detainee/prisoner. Other than sheer speculation I have seen no evidence that these prisons exist for the purpose of “agressive interrogation/torture”.

If it’s/was for prisoner safety, why not on US soil then? Could you think of a safer location than the one you’ve total control over?
Or are you saying that US military jails are less secure than foreign ones in East Europe???

We have immediately “leaped” to the conclusion that these prisons exist for some clandestine reason.

No need to leap here, these prisons were undisclosed so far, right. Their existence were clandestine. Period.

The *real* question here is not anymore if it was clandestine but for which reason?

“If I told you I would have to kill you” does have some application.

Indeed. So, please, don’t tell me. Aka keep secrets secret forever. It seems on this topic that was not the case anymore, right?
If you can’t keep a secret, don’t have one(s).

Your frenchly,

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at November 7, 2005 9:27 AM
Comment #90954

Philippe,

You may not have heard being over there across the “big pond” but a few days a go a prisoner on DEATH ROW escaped from a prison here in the US. It may very well be that prisons outside this country are more secure.

While we are on the subject of “secret”. How about the US Secret Service which conducts operations all over the world in “secret”.

Posted by: steve smith at November 7, 2005 11:30 AM
Comment #93333

does anyone know if the prsions are being investigated at all? This doesn’t surprise me one bit but the fact that there was big denial involved is just plain wrong.(I don’t the exact story, just what I’ve heard)

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