Democrats & Liberals Archives

Are Republicans Ready To Do The Math?

1) Cheney pushes for war.
2) Cheney’s office willing to throw CIA proliferations agent(covert) under the bus to punish her husband who tries to halt Cheney’s push for war.
3) Cheney’s underling leaks name of agent to reporters with out the knowledge his boss(wink) in an attempt silence his critic.

4) Haliburton makes $7.2 billion dollars of the $10 billion dollars awarded in the original LOGCAP contract secretly awarded by the Pentagon to Haliburton KBR in 2000. Haliburton continues to profit from the war by overcharging for services and rigging newly awarded contract processes to favor them over the competition.
5) Cheney was once CEO of Haliburton up until 2000 and still has ties to his "old" company.
Is it still just a coincidence or are we ready to do the math?


"Rigged from the Beginning"

Once secret Halliburton oil contract rakes in billions long after Army said work would be competitively bid
by David Phinney, Special to CorpWatch
September 30th, 2004

In June 2003, amid public outcry and congressional protests, the Pentagon announced it would replace Halliburton's secretly-awarded multi-billion dollar contract for rebuilding Iraq's oil infrastructure with publicly bid contracts.

Following six months of delays, the Army Corps finally awarded two additional contracts in January 2004. One valued for as much as $800 million went to Parsons Energy. A second with a cap of $1.2 billion was awarded to the Halliburton subsidiary, Kellogg Brown & Root (KBR).

When announcing the new awards, the Army Corps claimed that these two contracts completed a "pre-war acquisition plan" to replace the non-competitive contract first given to Halliburton "with full and open competitive contracts."

But despite repeated portrayals that the original secret contract would be opened up to competition, Halliburton continued working under the original March 2003 agreement known as Restore Iraqi Oil (RIO). To date, that controversial contract has now racked up over and f$2.5 billion dollars in billings for oil industry repairs uel deliveries. The whopping sum is over and above whatever work Halliburton is additionally performing under the second $1.2 billion contract, according to Army Corps records.

By comparison, Parsons Energy told Corpwatch it has billed only $120 million so far on its share of the "competitive" contract.

This pattern of proclaiming competition but awarding mainly to Halliburton still bothers Sheryl Tappan, a former contract proposal writer and consultant for Bechtel, one of the world's biggest engineering firms. She worked on the San Francisco firm's bid in the promised "open" competition for the oil construction work, but soon judged the effort as futile.

"The competition was rigged from the beginning" she said recently.

That's why she recommended that Bechtel pull its proposal for a share of the oil work two weeks before the due date.

Her reasoning to the firm's executives was simple.

After 12 years in the business of writing successful proposals, including government contracts worth billions of dollars, Tappan had decided that the competition for Halliburton/KBR's work was a "sham."

Competition?

The competition outraged Tappan so much that she published a book last April detailing the process, which the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers managed at its Fort Worth/Dallas office. Titled Shock and Awe in Fort Worth, Tappan relies on scores of official documents and professional insight to build her argument that cards were stacked in favor of Halliburton/KBR from the outset.

The self-published book has yet to make a best seller list, but it has captured the attention of congressional Democrats who invited her to explain her claims at a hearing sponsored by the Senate Democratic Policy Committee.

"Officials up and down the chain of command ignored our federal laws and regulations and the procedures that normally ensure fair play," she said during the September 10 hearing.

Never before in her professional career has she seen "the arrogant and egregious ways in which the Corps treated Halliburton’s competitors," Tappan added.

After the competition's completion, the Army Corps awarded the two "follow on" contracts on January 16, 2004. Halliburton/KBR received the $1.2 billion agreement for additional work in southern Iraq while Parsons Energy and Chemical Group (in partnership with the Worley Group of Australia) was awarded up to $800 million for similar work in northern Iraq. Parsons and Halliburton/KBR are both headquartered in Houston.

But more significantly, Haliburton's original RIO contract never ended despite earlier claims by the then commander of the Army Corps, Lt. Gen. Robert Flowers, that the agreement would be opened up to competition.

"There will be ample opportunity to competitions of the overall requirements to support the restoration of Iraq's oil infrastructure," he said in a April 8, 2003, letter to Rep. Henry Waxman, a California Democrat who has doggedly questioned Haliburton's Iraq contracts.

The original RIO contract to Halliburton was "designed from the outset as a bridge to competition and structured accordingly," Flowers then wrote in a second May 2, 2003, response to Waxman. "We will limit orders under this contract to those service required prior to the availability of competitively awarded contracts."

But the billable work by Haliburton/KBR now stands at $2.522 billion from the original secret RIO agreement made in March 2003. While there was some overlap of the RIO and the subsequent contracts, work under the RIO came to a close this September, according to the Corps of Engineers. A final bill is still being negotiated.

Meanwhile, the contracts that were subsequently opened for competition to meet the "overall requirements" remain just a fraction of that work -- something that Bechtel anticipated during the competition and which convinced the firm to drop out of the competition, according to a company spokesman.

"The company believed it would not lead to additional work," he said.

To date, Parsons has billed approximately $120 million for its work, according company spokesman Don Lasses, who adds: "We fully anticipate to be doing more."

Haliburton/KBR referred inquiries to the Pentagon about what amount has billed under the second $1.2 billion Halliburton/KBR contract awarded in January, but the Pentagon has yet to find the figures for Corpwatch.

No one from the Defense Department appeared at the September 10 Democratic Policy Committee meeting to respond to Tappan's charges and the Army Corps of Engineers has consistently insisted during congressional hearings and to the news media that the process was "full and open."

But Tappan's perspective remains compelling to critics of the events, not only because it is rare for someone with first-hand knowledge of contract competitions to publicly fault the government, but also because her professional eye carefully follows the threads leading to Haliburton's central role in rebuilding Iraq's oil industry.

Is something wrong here or is it all just coincidence?
Is it the" liberal media" looking for dirt on the Bush administration?
Is it the Democrats "player hating" on Cheney?
Or is it a well thought out plan to profit on a war that was in the planning phase since the other Bush was president and Cheney his Secretary of Defense?
Do the math.

Posted by Andre M. Hernandez at October 31, 2005 9:50 AM
Comments
Comment #89132

Do the math on Haliburton. Compare its stock price today to what it was ten, five and three years ago. Compare it to the stock market over those times and to similar firms in the U.S. and abroad. You might pay special attention to how much it has gone up under George Bush. Compare that to similar periods under Clinton. If you still think it is making so much money, buy it and give all those profits you think you will make to the poor or to the Democratic party.

There is a bottom line here. All the rest is commentary.

Posted by: Jack at October 31, 2005 12:39 PM
Comment #89135

Jack -

Are you suggesting that the $$$Billions does not exist because the stock price is low compared where it was in the Clinton era? The bottom line looks $$$Billion better than it would had Cheney not been successful in the march to war. That’s the issue… the rest is commentary.

Posted by: tony at October 31, 2005 12:48 PM
Comment #89137

Bottom line:
HAL is up about 50% since 2000 inaugaration of W.
S&P 500 is down a few % over same period.

Doing the math, HAL has performed infinitely better than the stock market since W took office. Is this really the bottom line?

Posted by: Ms Schwamp at October 31, 2005 12:52 PM
Comment #89140

What does the stock performance have to do with the original post?

Posted by: womanmarine at October 31, 2005 12:59 PM
Comment #89141

womanmarine… DITTO…

??? Just waiting to figure that one out myself…

Posted by: tony at October 31, 2005 1:03 PM
Comment #89146

Can you really believe that these people went to war to enrich themselves ? Anyone with a child would want a better future for there children ! Did you notice that Cheney’s daughter that got such a wonderful job with the ATT just when the merger has to be approved by the justice dept.
Isn’t this wonderful scotter is from the jew boys working for cheney for weapons of mass destruction . Hell is waiting for all of them .
peach

Posted by: peach at October 31, 2005 1:22 PM
Comment #89147

—-
jew boys
—-
??? Is this serious?

Posted by: tony at October 31, 2005 1:25 PM
Comment #89151

Tony:

Some posts are so out of touch with reality that it’s easy to ignore them. I don’t take them seriously.

Posted by: womanmarine at October 31, 2005 1:29 PM
Comment #89153

You forgot to add that the Investigation clearly showed that Cheney and Company rigged the Intelligence Data from the CIA.

Posted by: Aldous at October 31, 2005 1:31 PM
Comment #89160

Is something wrong here or is it all just coincidence? yes
Is it the” liberal media” looking for dirt on the Bush administration?yes
Is it the Democrats “player hating” on Cheney?yes
Or is it a well thought out plan to profit on a war that was in the planning phase since the other Bush was president and Cheney his Secretary of Defense? If this group could do a “well thought out plan” why couldn’t they plant some WMD after we entered Iraq? On one hand you guys say they are incompetent and on the other they are evil geniuses.

Posted by: jimf at October 31, 2005 2:06 PM
Comment #89165

Yeah, lots of businessmen reward their former colleagues when they no longer have money on the line …NOT

This kind of conspiracy thinking is worthy of Frank Zappa. You forgot to throw in the Trilateral Commission connection.

It does not make any sense that Bush would start a multibillion dollar war to give a billion dollar contract to Halliburton on which it might or might not make a few million in profits. Why not just siphon the money directly?

Posted by: Roach at October 31, 2005 2:37 PM
Comment #89167

Andre-

I wonder why your Bechtel proposal writer chose to write a book rather than issue a simple “protest of award” letter?

The GAO reviewed all of these awards anyway, and on the Iraq Oil Infrastructure award by the Army Field Support, “we found that the award of this contract generally complied with applicable legal standards.”

As for the LOGCAP, On $10.5 billion $55.1 million was disallowed. That’s about .5 % if my math is good.

Posted by: George in SC at October 31, 2005 2:39 PM
Comment #89169

WOW - thanks for that clarification, jimf. I had no idea I was so far off base. I had no idea the answers were so simple.

(btw - I think if you said that Bush Admin was incompetent with evil intentions… might be getting closer reality.)

Posted by: tony at October 31, 2005 2:43 PM
Comment #89172

The Bush Bashing is worn out. He has no eligibility left anyway.

If the R’s stay with the Bush model for future candidates it is very possible that Paris Hilton will soon clean up and become a Republican candidate. She has been about as impressive as W has been at this point in his life.

Stop Paris Now!
Always room for one more bash.

Posted by: Ms Schwamp at October 31, 2005 2:54 PM
Comment #89188

Let me get this straight- Cheney pushed for the war because he wanted to make some money for a company he used to work for? Seriously? I think to say that a man who has risen to VP, who has plenty of money, has way better things to worry abotu than to force a war just to make a couple more bucks. In reality- the answer here is much more simple. Cheney believes in the NECON model. He thinks the war was going to achieve the ends of the neocons by spreading democracy and thus undermining terrorism.

Listen, at least the left cant have both theories. Either the Bush administration is a bunch of neocon ideologues, who will do anything to achieve their agenda. Or they are completley unprincipled scum, who will send American soldiers into harms way just to get a couple of bucks for their former company. To me, the second theory sounds like tin foil hats talking- but at least you guys gotta pick one of these two and stick with it!

Posted by: Misha Tseytlin at October 31, 2005 4:01 PM
Comment #89192

Boy, these right wingers are more freaked out about the death of their movement than I could have dared to hope. It’d be funny if it weren’t so pathetic. Also, last poster forgot the third option (and yes, we can have it ALL 3 ways) - that the bush administration is simply a bunch of jackasses drunk on power and led by a monkey.

Posted by: roger at October 31, 2005 4:18 PM
Comment #89209

Just curious as I read these.
L’s seemed to be moved towards the idea of an evil sinister plot to start a war and reap the profits.
R’s criticized L’s for having supposed conflicting theories.. read “Listen, at least the left cant have both theories. Either the Bush administration is a bunch of neocon ideologues, who will do anything to achieve their agenda. Or they are completley unprincipled scum, who will send American soldiers into harms way just to get a couple of bucks for their former company.”

I have reread that argument and call me Dumb but I do not see those two theories as polar opposites. Someone do the proof and edu-ma-cate little old liberal white man here.

Did our administration push for war in order to get rich? I think not. Did this administration unabashedly “reward” cronies and connected companies when contracts were to be awarded? Sure. W is about his buds and rewarding loyalty. (See Miers)

About the supposed - can’t have your two theories slant - I want a R to step up and recognize aloud that the reasoning behind the persuasion for war and the selling points offered to the general public have manueuvered thru the waffle machine.
Kerry was labeled a waffler… this administration has taken waffling and suspect reasoning to new levels.

For review -
Saddam has WMDs
Saddam is buying urnaium
W speaks “I am sure we will find WMDs.”
Saddam has mobile weapons labs
Saddam has weapon making capabilities
Saddam is an evil dictator

Many of my R friends will stop the challenge of overinflated information and faulty intelligence lead us to “war” witht he comments of
1. Clinton had the same intelligence
- Maybe so but they chose not to run rampant with one source. Powell himself says now that his going before the UN is his biggest regret and mistake
2. Would you rather Saddam still be in power?
- Is it good that Saddam is ousted since he was an evil dictator and murderer? yes. But was that what Bush used as his MAIN POINT for going to war? Obviously not.

R’s need to stop toeing the party line and look up. The Kool Aid may not be the right drink any more.

If you would like to buy a t-shirt, please email me stuartdodson@yahoo.com

FRONT - Photo of Pilot Bush and Mission Accomplished signage

Back - (! represents checkmarks)
Got Elected - wink !
Defied UN Sanctions !
Distanced USA from UN and the World !
Largest deficit spending in 30 years !
Got my friends jobs !
Polarized a nation!
Lost jobs for others!
Increased poverty!
Now watch this!


Posted by: Stuart at October 31, 2005 5:29 PM
Comment #89210

Cheney wanted this war to make Haliburton money just like LBJ sent us to Vietman to make money for Ford.


Posted by: Ron Brown at October 31, 2005 5:30 PM
Comment #89214

If you bought Halliburton five years ago (when Bush was elected) you made an average about 50% (dividends and gains). Sounds good. BUT I didn’t have to look far to beat that.

Just go through some firms that you need to get through the day. Start with breakfast SBUX (coffee) = 180%, Kellogg’s (cereal) = 80%. Take the train to work - RIO (Brazilian miner, since you like the RIO part) = 350%, NSC (RR) = 175%, get into a car JCI (auto parts) = 140%, and into a tall building PKX (Korean Steel) = 240%, NUE (American steel) = 250%. Oh, stop at KFC and you find YUM = 260%. Hal is not so good anymore,is it. I only checked a few firms I knew and I tried to mix industries and nationalities. What do all these have in common? Nothing, except they are publicly traded. But if you look at the charts, you see something interesting.

The economy in general has done well since the Bush tax cuts aimed at investments and has grown at an annual rate of more than 3% for 10 consecutive quarters going back to the second quarter of 2003 when it became clear that tax cuts on dividends, capital gains and in marginal income tax rates would pass the Congress.

BTW the tax cuts produced a windfall. Federal revenues rose in the fiscal year that ended September 30 by an estimated $274 billion, or 14.6% because of a boom in both corporate (47.6% increase) and individual (14.8%) income tax receipts. My source for the numbers is the WSJ, in case you ask.

Posted by: Jack at October 31, 2005 5:49 PM
Comment #89221

Jack,

Your numbers for the past five years seem to check out on BigCharts.com. But I have two comments.

1.) You need to throw out the foriegn country stocks, as the foreign market was very good from 2001 to the present. Halliburton is an American stock.

2.) When you compare numbers, you have to compare them apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Look the numbers up of Halliburton and compare them to other American companies in the same classification. Then, if Halliburton’s 50% return over 5 years is lower than the companies in its catergory you have a valid argument.

I haven’t checked the numbers yet, but I think you’ll find Halliburton a top performer in its bench mark. Also, none of the other companies you spoke of were ran by the VP of the US. I’m not the smartest guy around, but I know a conflict when I see one.

Example. I’m a financial advisor. Let’s say I was Bush’s running mate. Now, I’ve given up my position at my broker/dealer to serve my country. However, when I get into office I turn the Federal Retirement System over to be ran by my former broker/dealer. That’s billions of dallors. Don’t think for a minute that somehow someway there would be rewards for me sometime in the future. It won’t be while I’m surving the good people of the USA, but when my term is over. Boy will my family eat well. I see the conflict, I can’t believe some people won’t admit this as well.

Posted by: Rusty at October 31, 2005 6:14 PM
Comment #89225

Rusty

I see your point, but I chose these precisely because they were NOT like Halliburton. My point is not that Hal is a bad stock, but that you could have done a lot better in a variety of others from industries and countries unrelated to Cheney. As a financial advisor, you know that 50% in five years is good, but not extraordinary.

Hal did slightly WORSE than the oil and gas industry average, but not that much. Again, you know that one stock will rarely track an average, so I won’t use that worse performance to bolster my point, but it really shows that there is nothing going on.

Finally, Cheney’s compensation is not related to current income for HAL except in the very broad sense. His pension can’t go up.

Posted by: Jack at October 31, 2005 6:38 PM
Comment #89232

Bechtel can’t win a contract because they can’t meet the standards set forth in the contract because they only do a portion of the work.Haliburton is the only company on the face of the planet that does what it does the way it is supposed to be done. Cheney has been divested from this compant for so long it’s meaninless go look up the dates (before the first elction).

Like Bill Clinton bragging to foreign dignitaries about WMD he knew exsisted and then George Stephanopolis on his show claiming the very same thing that Saddam had WMD and now the media and the left like to forget these statements. He lied people died straw dogs.

Even the Special prsecutor would not claim that covert status. The only person to be PROVEN A LIAR is Joe Wilson about yellowcake uranium first there was yellocake and two weeks later there wasn’t flip flop after the fact. If his wife was covert how come after 22 months they could not charge for outing the agent. Because they could not meet the standard as set forth in the LAW. END OF STORY.

Posted by: CAD at October 31, 2005 7:09 PM
Comment #89237
Even the Special prsecutor would not claim that covert status. The only person to be PROVEN A LIAR is Joe Wilson about yellowcake uranium first there was yellocake and two weeks later there wasn’t flip flop after the fact. If his wife was covert how come after 22 months they could not charge for outing the agent. Because they could not meet the standard as set forth in the LAW. END OF STORY.

If you listened to the Special Prosecutor he couldn’t make any other charges after all this time because he cannot uncover the truth… hence the lying to a grand jury and obstruction of justice charges against Libby.

I’m sure with Libby facing 30 years and 1.2 million in fines that Cheney has already assured him that he will be pardoned by the President. So the truth will never be known and other charges will never be brought against this administration.

Posted by: Pat at October 31, 2005 7:37 PM
Comment #89239

CAD,

Your point about Bechtel may be true that they don’t meet all the standards set forth in the contract. But coming from the business world and writing requests for a number of items for my former employer I can speak about how this is done.

The US say’s we will open up the contracts to bid. What they do then before the contract is written is figure out who they want to get the contract and then write the contact accordingly. In other words, Halliburton was the best qualified due to the way the contract was written. For example, on a much smaller scale of course. Let’s say you were told by your boss to go out to bid for a fleet of pick up trucks. A person say’s ok, I like the ford pick up better than the chevy so you write the contract to make the Ford the better match for your requirements. It’s not hard to do, and it happens all the time in gov’t. You want to bid on govn’t minority only bid contracts. So you make your wife 50% owner of the business and know you meet the qualifications to go and bid on the contract. These things go both ways.
Do your research on Bechtel, Halliburton can’t hold a candle to them for building roads and bridges. Much of Halliburtons contract includes building roads and briges…

Jack,

Generally speaking pensions work like this. 2 to 3% of your pay based on years of service. Then you take your last 3 years of service and average out your gross pay and multiply by 2 or 3 depending on your pension plan. A police officer making $60,000 per year with 25 years of service would multiply 25 by 3= 75% of pay for retirement.

Sorry to bore you with math, but Cheney has a lot of his pension tied up in stock options. The more value Halliburton is worth the more he can sell his stock. Cheney still owns stock options of Halliburton. Plus, don’t think for a minute that Cheney is not going back to work for Halliburton when he leaves office. With the conections he makes now and the deals he can make, he will make Halliburton a fortune in the future. Just like Bush Sr. did for the Carlyle company.

Posted by: Rusty at October 31, 2005 7:38 PM
Comment #89252

Rusty

Cheney has piles of money already. If he really wanted the cash, he would have stayed out of politics. Even if he doubles his money, he still can’t make up for those eight years making the relative chump change. Beyond that, (and not to put too fine a point on it) Cheney is not in the best of health. If I were him, I wouldn’t even buy green bananas.

The other obvious thing is that he (or anyone else) could have found better investments than HAL. So even if you assume he is craven and greedy, such behavior doesn’t make much sense.

You understand finance. If you had his millions, couldn’t you do better than 50% in five years? If you were dishonest, you could make more money in trade rules. It just doesn’t make any sense from any informed point of view.

BTW - My pension pays only 1.7% for the first 20 years and only 1% after that. I was feeling okay about that until a couple of minutes ago. Now I have to rethink my whole retirment world view. Thanks a lot.

Posted by: Jack at October 31, 2005 8:32 PM
Comment #89258

Rusty,

Amen. Anyone who has experience selling or writing proposals to state or Federal agencies (I have about 10 years worth) knows that “wired” Requests for Proposals are rampant in government contracting. The argument over Halliburton’s stock price is simply a red herring.

Bob Benjamin

Posted by: Robert Benjamin at October 31, 2005 9:08 PM
Comment #89269

Rusty,

The stock options that Cheney had were deeded over to three non profit organizations when he became VP. He does not have any financial interest in them anymore. However I am sure you are correct once he is out of office that he could easily get compensation from Halliburton as a consultant or whatever he wanted.

Mike P

Posted by: Mike P at October 31, 2005 10:13 PM
Comment #89278

Hell No they are not and never will be ready all they care about is destroying the good 5% of True Born Americans that are left in America Like ME.

Posted by: Albert Garibay at October 31, 2005 10:48 PM
Comment #89291

It’s very easy to throw out numbers that may be correct but are generally hardly germane. As with the other statements from our right wing friends in recent posts, it makes no sense to bother to refute them as it only takes attention away from the real issue thereby providing them a toss-up despite their having no honest argument to start with. The plain and simple fact is that clearly defined government procurement rules have been violated and circumvented by the increasingly corrupt Bush administration and the admin is finally being taken to task on it, even if just a little.

As we can see, the administration’s supporters will twist and contort logic in amazing ways just to avoid coming to terms with that reality, not to mention the myriad other hard realities they’ve ignored regarding this administration and the bastards running Congress. I’ll repeat my refrain, our right wing friends have, intentionally or not, enabled the worst president in our history to bring us to the brink of disaster. Now, if we’re to have any chance of saving this country, we must return the favor of the past five years and exclude them from the debate. They’ve rendered themselves utterly unworthy of further inclusion no matter how hard they try to intellectualize their arguments, to feign indignation when their foolishness is exposed, and/or to childishly validate their qualifications to make the arguments in the first place.

Posted by: roger at October 31, 2005 11:34 PM
Comment #89293

Good Andre M. Hernandez,
It exemplifies the corporatism and corpocrisy that now permeates society.

For more examples, read Economic Hit Man.

And, here’s a little more math.
How about:
[1] National Debt of over $8 Trillion
[2] over $1 billion per day for interest on that debt
[3] over $1 billion per day borrowed to pay that $1 billion per day of interest on the National Debt.
[4] it would take over 127 years to pay down the debt, if you started now paying back $1 billion per day, and stopped borrowing $1 billion per day.
[5] 77 million baby boomers about to retire, earning less, investing less, spending less, drawing Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, prescription drugs, etc.
[6] the GPBGC and pensions $1.6 Trillion in the hole.
[7] $6 billion per month spend in IRAQ
[8] increasingly unaffordable and unreliable healthcare.
[9] declining quality and increasingly expensive public education.
[10] cheap labor and increasing competition world wide (global plunder).
[11] costly natural disasters.

These are the ingredients of a disaster in the making. And what sort of tough decisions is Congress making? They’re trying to determine whether to vote for pork-barrel or funding for the troops. Well, guess what won? Instead of body armour and armour for Humvees, Congress voted $100,000 for the Tiger Woods Foundation, and $1 Million for the brown tree snake in Guam (see cagw.org for thousands of examples of government irresponsibility and unaccountability).

It’s just a matter of time, before we all start to feel the consequences of the federal government’s fiscal and moral bankruptcy. When? No one knows, but it’s not far away. Four or five years maybe. Maybe less. Inflation will be the first signs of trouble, as the government finds it harder and harder to borrow and print over $1 billion per day. Soon, that $1 billion per day could soon double. Investors (e.g. China, France, Germany, Japan) may start to get nervous about throwing more and more money into the U.$. blackhole. It’s not long before it will most likely all blow up in our face.
Something must be done to regain fiscal responsibility, because Congress has no discipline at all. None.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 31, 2005 11:38 PM
Comment #89294

I don’t think most of Congress even knows how many zeroes are in a trillion.
Yes, be afraid. Be very afraid.
_____________________________________________
“I see PC people !

Posted by: d.a.n at October 31, 2005 11:41 PM
Comment #89341

Jack, Tony and womanmarine,

I was not arguing that the United States attacked Iraq so that Cheney and Haliburton could profit.
I am just pointing out that maybeone of the reasons Cheney pushed so hard for war was to enable Haliburton KBR to profit.
If you see all of this as a coincidence, that’s fine by me.
Your loyalty is refreshing, misplaced but refreshing.
This administration could bring the United States down to a level we previously thought impossible. You folks want to be right and that is important to you. The rest of us just want this nightmare to be over. Hell, I’ll even pretend those of you who voted for these criminals were right. I will wear a tee-shirt proclaiming the right-wing,Christian fundamentalist, super-patriots who support this idiot are the most intelligent,open-minded and thoughtful people on the planet, if it meant Bush would leave office.

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at November 1, 2005 8:24 AM
Comment #89352

Andre -
You might want to go back and re-read the posts. There’s no way that anyone can assume that the war + profits for Halliburton + cover ups were just a coincidence.

Also - Bush and his venture partners have done more damage to our international relations than we could hope to repair in the near future (10-20 yrs.) We’ve created generational hostility… that doesn’t go away after someone is indicted.

Also - even the Christians are going against Bush on the war and terror -

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20051031/cm_thenation/731572;_ylt=A86.I2X1f2ZDslAAuBj9wxIF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA—

So - I think I’d agree with you that Cheney was not just motivated by profit for Halliburton, he was obsessed with the war + his ability to make things happen for Halliburton. Anyone who thinks that this is a coincidence or that Cheney has severed ties with Halliburton has not spent time around Fortune 500 CEOs. They are obsessive when it comes to their companies… the kind of obsession that does not need a financial incentive.

Posted by: tony at November 1, 2005 9:02 AM
Comment #89388

There’s a big difference between the cause and effects going on in Iraq. The CAUSE of Iraq is the Cheney/Wolfowicz neocon dominoe doctrine. I.e. take down a mid east dictatorship then the remaining dictators will take notice and play on our side of the cold war game. The EFFECT is that the conservatives natural self-interest instinct is to make money for oneself and ilk on the way. Unfortunately, they are incompetent as WORLD LEADERS and, therefor, were the wrong people to see if the dominoe philosophy would work.

Posted by: Dave at November 1, 2005 10:53 AM
Comment #89390

Andre:

I think you may have misread my few posts.

Posted by: womanmarine at November 1, 2005 11:00 AM
Comment #89392

On the way into work this morning, I saw a license tag: 4DUBYA

OK, there are some politicians I respect… and a party I usually follow… but as a license plate?

(he was also a complete asshole while driving… yea, in a big ass high profile SUV.. with a black ‘W’ sticker.)

This all seems a bit twisted to me… but I think could find a 100 other names before digging into the political arena for inspiration.

Posted by: tony at November 1, 2005 11:07 AM
Comment #89398

womanmarine,

I had a seperate reply for each of you but failed to send it and instead lumped all three names on post that was meant for Jack.
Sorry.

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at November 1, 2005 11:29 AM
Comment #89449

This article is just one example of the massive “cronyism” of this President’s administration. You could write article after article with never ending material on all the “paybacks” that this President has given out.(Much with our tax dollars) This has been Bush’s agenda since the moment he was sworn into office.

Posted by: M.S. Marcotte at November 1, 2005 2:04 PM
Comment #89462

I agree: even in the throws of the incompetence surrounding Katirna - he still managed to turn releif dollars into profits for his friends (and again with no-bid contracts.)

Posted by: tony at November 1, 2005 2:29 PM
Comment #89521

are dems ready to see the facts? The Clinton administration published a report saying Suddam was a threat and needed to be stopped. And….a lot of Dems voted in favor of the war. Dems get over your election loss and be for the people and quit underminding the president of the United States. You are just as bad as the teriorist.

Posted by: vam at November 1, 2005 6:04 PM
Comment #89523

d.a.n
I don’t think most of Congress even knows how many zeroes are in a trillion.

Let’s see
$1,000,000,000,0 0 0. 0 0
123 456 789 101112 1314
Nope,they aint that smart.


Yes, be afraid. Be very afraid.

Don’t worry I AM.
_____________________________________________
“I see PC people !”

Funny, I’m seeing them too!

Posted by: Ron Brown at November 1, 2005 6:22 PM
Comment #89525

Vam, Vam, Vam,

Take a breath my friend. I am a middle of the road Democrat. I too, with the information given to me thought Saddam had WMD’s. Hell, after all we gave him many of them. However, if you read Clinton’s report, he also advised there were many in the field who felt Saddam didn’t have many if any WMD’s. He then took both sides of his intelligence and came to the conclusion that Saddam had weapons. However, it wasn’t conclusive evidence and therefore he didn’t declare a war. He continued what the previous administration had started.
Bush it appears discarded the negative information he was given and BUSH declared war. Not Clinton!

As for the other Democrat’s you speak of, you are correct. However, I have heard many of them state that they voted based on the intelligence they were fed by the BUSH administration. I won’t make excuses for any of them for being wrong. However, I have heard some of them say they were wrong. BUSH can’t say this (WRONG). Instead of saying he was wrong he throws the reason for war into another direction.

This is America and you are free to think what you wish, however, don’t try to compare Clinton and his reason’s to stay the course with sanctions and Bush’s decision to ramp it up into a full scale war. In my opinion Bush Sr. and Clinton were correct. Bush Jr. rolled the dice and may have rolled craps.


Posted by: Rusty at November 1, 2005 6:24 PM
Comment #89537

OK… so since I was against the war and thought the weapons inspectors were right when they said there were no WMDs in Iraq, I call the right no mercilessly to knock Bush without reproach…??? Do I have that right?

Also, I know it feels all warm and fuzzy, but read the 9/11 Comm. report and other reports/documents by experts in the field - they were saying all along that the WMD scare was baseless.

Posted by: tony at November 1, 2005 7:34 PM
Comment #89550

We all know that Bush is a pile of crap and all republicans and liberal demacrats are just as bad 95% of America is Garbage plain and simple a bunch of DRUG smoking trash you rich and sick none caring white and jewish scum third world crap that has come from other parts of this sick world have taken what is mine and every other true born American you have taken our JOBS and our WOMEN get out of my country.

Posted by: Albert Garibay at November 1, 2005 8:04 PM
Comment #89562

Albert -

Wow. We all suck… is that about it? I think I sense a bit of Native American thread in your statements… but not really sure.

Take a long deep breath, use some punctuation, and try again…


please.

Posted by: tony at November 1, 2005 8:41 PM
Comment #89564

Our wonderfully insightful and judicious friend Albert here, as you all may know, was actually George Bush’s original pick for the Supreme Court prior to Harriet Miers. Rove thought he might not be conservative enough for some Republican senators so the nomination was quashed before it happened.

Albert, did you have a bad day? Did mommy finally tell you that she and daddy are brother and sister? Must have been tough for you huh?

Posted by: roger at November 1, 2005 8:46 PM
Comment #89580

Gee Albert i didn’t know anyone could make such a statement without useing any punctuation but you’ve showd me i could thanks for the lesson their buddy next time i want to try an confuse someone i’ll try it afterall i try to make myself look silly every chance i get so this looks like a good way to do it however maybe i just need to stick to my own way of doing it.

Posted by: Ron Brown at November 1, 2005 9:42 PM
Comment #89584

My point is we are there and REALLLLLY getting rid of the weapons of mass destruction whose name is Saddam is a good thing. We need to focus on finishing up this war instead of dwelling on the past. No actual WMD so what! Saddam is another Hitler. Terrorism is not just an Al Queda thing. It is all intertwined over there and even here in the US. We are fighting terrorism not seeking WMD. So what if someone said there were WMD’s and there weren’t any. I don’t think that was the only reason for going to war. Going to war is usually based on several reasons.

Posted by: vam at November 1, 2005 10:11 PM
Comment #89590

Hey Vam and Ron, did you go to the same junior high school as Albert? Then again, given the relative maturity indicated by your posts, perhaps the question is: DO you go to the same junior high school as Albert? Not only do you get F’s for your lame content, but your spelling and grammar are equally as bad as your content and as albert’s punctuation. Please spend a little time learning the facts and our language before wasting our time with this drivel of yours.

Posted by: roger at November 1, 2005 10:20 PM
Comment #89600
thought the weapons inspectors were right when they said there were no WMDs in Iraq

Hmmm, one former inspector said that they had very few. Another said that they had a bunch. The one in charge at the time of invasion said that they weren’t able to verify and that Iraq violated the final resolution designed to get them to stop hindering inspections immediately and completely.

So, which inspector was saying there were none at all?

Posted by: Rhinehold at November 1, 2005 11:08 PM
Comment #89602

Wow, Albert. That post of yours stuck out like a raisin in a pan of milk. I have to agree with Roger in that your post was totally lacking in anything of value and is merely mindless, pernicious blather (blather, rinse, repeat!). Is English a second language? Is it a language you know at all? Let’s analyze your post. “Bush is a pile of crap.” Let me guess. Wall Street Journal, front page, right?

Ok, moving right along…”95% of America is garbage plain and simple”…”a bunch of drug smoking trash”…”you rich and sick none caring white and jewish scum third world crap that has come from other parts of this sick world have taken what is mine and every other true born American you have taken our JOBS and our WOMEN get out of my country.”

What standard are you using in your obviously well-researched demographic, broad brush-stroking assessment of America? It’s amazing how you’ve narrowed the entire country down to two ethnicities…non-caring whites and jewish scum. Your view of the world must be a very small one indeed. I guess your Internet access must just be to one site and it’s probably some kind of supremacist site that only believes that there are two kinds of people in the world.

What job of yours did I take? I’m a radar engineer. Can you do my job? Did you spend 22 years on your education to do what I do? I’m going out on a limb here but I’m going to have to say that you probably didn’t. Are you married? If so, then it’s quite obvious that I didn’t steal your woman. If you’re not married, I bet my wife is not from your neighborhood and so, again, I didn’t steal “your” woman. And I’m going to bet that a lot of women will resent the fact that you speak of them as “yours”, as if they were property to be traded.

Now, one last point and I’ll go away. Can you quantify what a “true born American” is? I was born in this country. I guess that makes me a “true born American.” If my mom was lying on the U.S. and Canadian border with equal halves of her body on each side, then my citizenship may be in question but I was born in THIS wonderful country, which I’ve served in both the military and in my civilian life and been in three wars as well. Can you say the same about your life in “your” country?

On that note, I’ll close. I do sincerely apologize to everyone on this board for taking up your time with this post but I just couldn’t stand it and had to say something. My very best to you all regardless of which side of the aisle you’re on. After all, for those who are American citizens, we are ALL TRUE AMERICANS and I truly believe that we ALL want what is best for our country regardless of our political affiliation.

Most humbly,

Mike


Posted by: Mike at November 1, 2005 11:15 PM
Comment #89662

—-
Hmmm, one former inspector said that they had very few. Another said that they had a bunch. The one in charge at the time of invasion said that they weren’t able to verify and that Iraq violated the final resolution designed to get them to stop hindering inspections immediately and completely.

So, which inspector was saying there were none at all?
—-

hmmm… the one in charge who made several reports to the UN saying that they had found no WMDs… needed 30 days to complete their work, but fully expected to find none.

That inspector.

Posted by: tony at November 2, 2005 7:00 AM
Comment #89698

Hey Roger you are the typical bashing Democrat. Can’t come up with anything constructive so BASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You all play the bashing game very well. Digging your grave deeper and deeper.

Posted by: vam at November 2, 2005 10:05 AM
Comment #89700

In regards to Roger and those like him….it does not take a rocket scientist to figure the Dems out. Wonder what next temper tantrum they will come up with. They are so sore they are not in power they can’t stand it and won’t be with these antics.

Posted by: vam at November 2, 2005 10:11 AM
Comment #89702

Vam,

While I disagree with the comments that came from Roger, I have to say that you are essentially bashing the Democratic party. You have not come up with a single fact. You have offered very little to the debate.
ex.
“In regards to Roger and those like him….it does not take a rocket scientist to figure the Dems out. Wonder what next temper tantrum they will come up with. They are so sore they are not in power they can’t stand it and won’t be with these antics.”

What is your point?
What are you basing this opinion on?

“Hey Roger you are the typical bashing Democrat. Can’t come up with anything constructive so BASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You all play the bashing game very well. Digging your grave deeper and deeper.”

Yikes! Get help

“No actual WMD so what!

So what, that’s your response to the President and his staff, lying to the world, to attack another country, that has resulted in thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost?

“Dems get over your election loss and be for the people and quit underminding the president of the United States. You are just as bad as the teriorist.”

I’m not sure what a teriorist does but I can assure you that I am not one.
Still nothing added to the debate that is fact based of intelligent.

Roger killed the messanger but that does not mean that your message is worthwhile or intelligent. Why not just post Dems. suck over and over.


Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at November 2, 2005 10:35 AM
Comment #89732

Andre

Visable facts buddy.

Tell me who is the real liar here? Kerry and his buddies voting for the war while really against it. For something until the polls show otherwise then switching. Not very stable!

Telling a basher they are a basher is not bashing. It is simple fact.

Posted by: vam at November 2, 2005 11:47 AM
Comment #89738

Dear Andre. It’s fine that you disagree with my methods or approach. In fact I think that such disagreement is healthy and your posts prove, to me at least, that you’re worthy of debate in that disagreement. I think though that you’re mischaracterizing me just a little. I have no intention to kill any messenger or as some have insinuated, conduct any form of censorship. I just propose that we ignore people who ignore reality - especially within the confines of a liberal forum. Is that reality relative to who we are - of course? And the right wing is free to apply their own version of truth in determining whether to ignore my own rantings. It seems they’d rather not and frankly, I rather enjoy pissing them off so easily.

I am an angry liberal - damn right. My vision is not clouded by my anger, my anger is a result of my clear vision. I’m not ashamed of it, it’s based on an empirical, sober, honest and fair evaluation of the issues and I’m going to stick to it. I am going to loudly, proudly and angrily if necessary, defend my principles and those of my similar thinking peers. More importantly, I am a proud patriot who loves virtually everything this country has stood for for 225 plus years. Right now I see my beloved nation as having been rendered unbelievably vulnerable. Our military is over-engaged, our economy is over-mortgaged, our GDP is being sucked up by the top 5%, and our social fabric is being torn apart. I think we can agree that this is being done by the current national Republican party leadership and apparatchiks and those who provide them cover and support. I know I’m far from alone in seeing this reality. There will be some - perhaps you - who neither need nor want my defense of our values, but they are free to ignore me or engage me as well.

Posted by: roger at November 2, 2005 12:04 PM
Comment #89832

Andre -

You tell us that we should just get the hell over the last election - yet you’re the one who brought up the election and brought Kerry into the discussion. Sounds like you’re obsessing.

Posted by: tony at November 2, 2005 3:36 PM
Comment #89847

Actually Tony, that was a misread. I think Andre included the line as a quote in order to refute it. Despite the fact that the quote was pretty stupid to start with, refute it he did and did well. He’s not one of the sycophants. Maybe you meant to address vam who, with only his posts to go on, is.

Posted by: roger at November 2, 2005 4:05 PM
Comment #89850

Mike, please do not apologize for your post. I only just now saw it and it was a pleasure to read. It’s heartening to see more intelligent voices in here.

Posted by: roger at November 2, 2005 4:13 PM
Comment #89888

Sorry Andre… my bad.

Posted by: tony at November 2, 2005 7:43 PM
Comment #89909

Roger my vision is not clouded either. I can say things like that just like you. Use to be a Dem but am now a Republican. The problem started in the Clinton administration. Because no one did anything.

And I know a lot of Dems who do not agree with the liberal Dems. The liberal Dems are not the majority by no means. And at this rate will never be.

For those of you who seem to think people lack intelligence because they do not side with you need to look at the big picture and not just yourself. Define intelligence please. You can’t. It is in the eye of the beholder.

Posted by: vam at November 2, 2005 8:34 PM
Comment #89925

Have all of you forgotten these words

he’ll use these weapons of mass destruction again! Sandy Berger!

or these
We have known for many years that SAddam Hussien is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction. Ted Kennedy

or this “Without question we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator leading an impressive regime. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. And now he’s miscalculating America’s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. His consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction.”

None other than John Kerry!

These quotes are from RUSH LIMBAUGHS site you can look for yourself. There are more Democratic Leaders there than you can shake your fist at.

In your ears with that!

Posted by: CAD at November 2, 2005 10:14 PM
Comment #90017

Hello all….my two cents. The Iraq invasion was planned well ahead of even Bush’s first election win. ‘Rebuilding America’s Defenses’ is a 90’s PNAC report written by Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Jeb Bush, and Scooter Libby. It outlined their proposed agenda for US military and economic domination worldwide, principly in the Middle East. Iraq was at the top of their list with Syria and Iran not far behind. They were planning on invading Iraq whether Saddam was still in power or not. It’s available at the PNAC website (‘reports and publications’ I believe) in .pdf format. Pay particular attention to page 63. Check out the URL I posted as well…eye opener.

Posted by: DJ Allen at November 3, 2005 9:15 AM
Comment #90559

Concerning the stock price for Halliburton, I remember hearing that the reason its stock price hasn’t gone up during the Bush’s administration is because it had to pay off asbetos related verdicts that caused the stocks to fall. With out those no bid contracts the stock price wouldn’t have recovered.

Did any one else remember hearing this on the news or has any one read this in an article?

Posted by: JJ at November 4, 2005 4:40 PM
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