Democrats & Liberals: Archives

If we look at the major decisions to come out of the White House since Rove has been preoccupied with the possiability of indictment, Bush is batting .500

First: Miers. A loss. Even much of Bush’s base is against her.

Second: Bernake. A Win. An excellent choice to lead the Fed.

Perhaps there are other decisions I’m missing that others would like to point out. And, of course, none of these deal with Foreign policy. But it leads me to think that getting the “Frat Boys” out of government might, just might, lead to some better decision making (Bernake), and a lot less senseless spin the keep alive the bad ones (Miers). If Rove were spending less time working with his attorney and more time talking to Bush, we might very well be seeing right now a double whammy of a “you’re anti-Christian” crusade to save the Miers nomination and the selection of a nutty supply sider to run the Fed.

steve,
I hope you’re right. And there is reason for hope. Though not an intellectual heavyweight, I don’t think Bush is stupid, and clearly there are some smart people in the Administration. If (and it’s a huge IF) the worst of the lot are indicted and forced out, maybe those who insist Bush is nobly motivated will be proved right after all. There is a better nature in there somewhere.

Still, I’m nervous. There’s a lot that can go wrong - as always. And I’m sure Bush won’t abandon the business interests who got him this far.

I’m shocked, SHOCKED to find out that no one was indicted today! I can’t believe that the information leaked to the media yesterday was incorrect! I guess you can call Fitzgerald The Grinch who stole Fitzmas…

C’mon guys. Have a beer and relax. One more day isn’t going to kill you. We can impeach people tomorrow. Or not.

Actually, there were no ANNOUNCEMENTS of indictments today, which goes along with every media report I’ve read.

Sealed indictments today, announcements Thursday or Friday.

Beer me.

I get it. So that would make today Fitzmas Eve!
Forget the beer; let’s have some eggnog!

BTW, it snowed here in New York last night. I’m dreaming of a white Fitzmas!

Jack is full of crap. If Cheney or Rove resign, that is a GOOD thing for this country no matter which way you cut it. Leave it up to Democrats to overthink things and find negativity in a bright situation.

I will wait to see what actually happens.

Re the Fed - I don’t know what you guys are so talking about. This is a good, solid, conservative pick. Even Arthur Laffer (one of the inventors of supply side) is pleased. He wrote this in today’s WSJ:

“I have never witnessed or even read about an economy that comes close to the excellence of the current U.S. economy. In spite of all the rhetoric to the contrary, it just doesn’t get any better. We need a Fed chairman who understands the importance of not rocking the boat, who is stable, solid and sticks to basics. Ben Bernanke is the right person at the right time.”

So refreshing to see the debate and blame game go on and on without end. Though a loyal Democrat for years, I’ve been totally disgusted with my chosen political parties lack of vision, allowing themselves to be perceived as a group that caters only to special interest groups that are usually outside the mainstream, and the inability of the party to bond long enough to successfully challenge the idiot savant we now have for a president and his henchman. All told, this group has poll ratings so low that any half-wit that speaks coherently should be able to successfully challenge almost any of them. But, all I hear and see is how the Democrats can’t agree on a platform that can challenge incumbents and keep searching for a strategy.

Hey I have an idea DNC; read this weeks issue of Time Magazine (Oct. 31 issue), specifically the cover story, THE GREAT RETIREMENT RIPOFF. Then pull your heads out of your butts long enough, to figure out what you just read. In my opinion, the average American is getting sick and tired of a self-absorbed do-nothing Congress, of getting ripped off, we are also tired of campaign issues that center around gay rights, abortion and school prayer (though I am pro-choice, don’t believe in discrimination, and Christian). There are more issues at hand and of real importance to people than the same tired old crap that has been handed out for the last 3 national elections. Americans care about the growing outsourcing of jobs, the future of social security, the cost of medicine, and outrageous CEO compensation that just keeps growing while the average employees retirement fund is squandered and disappearing in leveraged buy-outs. With all of these getting the blessing of Congress.

While the Republicans may have temporarily romanced the “Glory Hallelujahs”, in order to get into office. Now’s the time for the Democrats to realign and remember their heritage as the “Peoples Partyâ€, and quit letting the Republicans name the issues to be debated. You’re losing a golden opportunity. So instead of the constant fund-raising efforts and dreaming of Fitzmas, get a platform. Until the Democratic Party proves it can win at least a local dogcatchers position, I’m not going to throw my hard-earned money away on the clueless group that seems to be running things now.

Re the Fed - I don’t know what you guys are so talking about. This is a good, solid, conservative pick.

Funny you say that, because one of the first comments I saw about Bernake after the announcement (but written before) was from the Wall Street Journal lamenting because he was a Keynesian, which would put him more or less in the “Liberal” camp.

Nobody is going down. This investigation is a diversion away from true crimes.

The whole thing is ridiculous. The idea that telling the press someones wife works for the CIA is a way of intimidation is preposterous. Did they try to silence every critic?

You forget what Rove is good at. Suckers.

Fitzmas schmitzmas.

The idea that there should be gloating or the anticipation of gloating no matter how this turns out is abhorrent to me.

Gloating on either side does no one nor this country any good.

It’s disgusting!

Courtesy The Raw Story:
Prosecutor in leak case seeks indictments against Rove, Libby, lawyers close to case say

womanmarine:
“The idea that there should be gloating or the anticipation of gloating no matter how this turns out is abhorrent to me.”

I don’t think it’s really gloating, womanmarine. I think its merely a sense that justice might be served to people who could commit such a traitorous act, then lie and try to cover up about it to the prosecutor — most especially since both seem to have been done simply for their political convienience.

“Gloating on either side does no one nor this country any good.
It’s disgusting!”

Yeah well, treason used to be a hanging offense, which had to have been a lot more disgusting than the (slim to none?) possibility that these guys might actually end up spending some time in jail.

Adrienne:

My point here is:

Calling it cute names, waiting with bated breath for things to go down to make the other side look bad is gloating.

I have watched both sides post about this.

Yes, if a charge comes down and they are convicted, there should be a punishment based on the existing laws.

I just think this fiasco is sad for the whole country.

Wanting justice and being willing to let justice take it’s course is much different than gloating. What I see appears a great deal like seriously partisan gloating to me.

I am worried how Bush will handle the pressure if his top advisors go. Remember, Bush was never on his own before. He always had his Daddy and later Rove et. al. to shield him. There are already reports that the Republican President has been screaming at his staff and that his drinking again. A Drunk is always a Drunk even when his sober. How will Bush holdup under the pressure his never had to deal before?

I know how you feel, womanmarine. We’ve got a question here about whether a CIA operative was outed, and many people would be gravely disappointed if it turns out she wasn’t. Imagine the outcry if the present grand jury doesn’t indict, or if later a trial jury doesn’t convict.

I don’t really begrudge the gloating, however. If people want to gloat, let them. It’s just a tacit admission that the interest taken in the story is really about politics instead of justice anyway—and I’d include Republican partisans in that as much as Democratic ones.

I remember a fair number of Republicans, even ones who didn’t know or even really care about the issues at stake, gloating over Clinton’s legal troubles too. It’s not particularly attractive, but again, that’s politics.

During Clinton’s troubles, I was deeply disturbed by the open-ended nature of the investigation and the lack of transperancy in the process, and I think its even worse in this case. Especially considering the very recent indications that this special prosecuter may be seeking an extension, which could cause this to drag on for additional years without clear results.

If Fitzgerald has the goods on anybody, then by all means let him seek indictments against those invdividuals, make what he knows public, and lets get this into the courts where it belongs and where all the parties can present their cases in an open, orderly and hopefully transperant process. Filing charges is the first, not the final step in the criminal legal process, and it’s time for Fitzgerald to either do that or make public why he cannot.

Continuing this trial by media and innuendo while most of the information is not available for examination, and where nobody knows for sure who is being of what, serves nobody’s interests.

If Fitzgerald feels he doesn’t have the goods on anybody after two years, then the judge should force him to issue indictments now and continue to build his case against people who will at least then have available to them the considerable rights given under our legal system to named defendents. If he can’t do that, he shouldn’t be allowed to conduct some open-ended interminable investigation in the shadows with no end in sight.
As it stands now, the only lawyer with access to evidence against the accused, or the ability to call and subpoena witnesses, is Fitzgerald. It’s time to get this into the courts, if that’s where it’s headed.

I’ll tell you why I am gloating. 30 years ago I was fighting the war, fighting for women’s rights and population control and nuclear disarmament. I am old now, a grandmother, and 6 short years after Clinton left us with a surplus and a reasonably quiet country this jerk and his minions as almost trashed it. So now spend every penny I can spare to various pacs, fly across the country to protests, email constantly, call my congressmen so much they know me by name. I’m doing this instead of playing kissyface with my granddaughter. I am so mad most days I see red. So yes, I am gloating. I hope they all go down in flames.

sanger:

I am always amazed that you Republicans keep equating a Blowjob between consenting adults with Abuse of Power and Endangering National Security.

Never forget. Of all the things Clinton was investigated on like Whitewater, S&L, etc., the only thing he was guilty of was lying about a Blowjob. There is no question BushCo outed Plame and risked the lives of many people.

I suppose to a Republican a Blowjob is equal to National Security.

Alexander the Great’s father Phillip threatened Sparta. He sent them a message, “You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city.” Their reply was, “If.” Neither Phillip nor Alexander ever conquered Sparta.

So, if all the things you hope come to pass, you can gloat - if that makes you all happy. Let’s see if it does.

Aldous,

It’s like I’m reading the Weekly World News when you post…

1) Clinton was found guilty of lying under oath in a Sexual Harassment lawsuit. It wasn’t an extension of the investigation, the right to ask him about previous sexual activities was only allowed because of a law he championed and signed. It’s a very serious deal, unless you don’t think a woman is entitled to a fair trial in a sexual harassment lawsuit?

2) He was found guilty of this. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t guilty of other things. I would love to have seen the investigation open to his involvement in selling national secrets to the Chineese for political campaign funds. Did it happen? Don’t know, no one had the balls to investigate it, went for the easy one (which is a problem that Republicans have always had).

3) “BushCo Outed Plame for …” The fact is that Joe Wilson outed his wife days after the State of the Union speech on national TV. It was the putting together of the pieces that I believe occured, there is no evidence that anyone so far even knew her name. There are ‘reports’ from unamed sources near the investigation (which I believe are illegal, aren’t they? Are we going to go after them?) but that doesn’t make proof yet.

Of course, since she was not undercover during the past 5 years and therefore there is no violation of the 1982 law… But you know all of that, it just doesn’t matter because you see your chance to ‘get someone’.

We’ll see what Fitzgerald finds. If Rove, Cheney or Libby are indicted, then they should be fired/resign and let the legal machinery begin. But if they aren’t, are you going to retract your allegations? HA, I bet…

Of course, since she was not undercover during the past 5 years and therefore there is no violation of the 1982 law

Rhinehold: if that were true, there wouldn’t even have to be an investigation would there? Or it not go on as long as it has? It always confuses me when someone posts that.

Rhinegold, you’re actually responding with a numbered list of carefully prepared rationales to a post by Aldous?

HA HA! Stand back! Now you’re in for either a tirade about money missing in Iraq or “John McCain’s black baby.”

Cass: And the other side will gloat if nothing comes of this.

That’s part of this whole problem. We can say “that’s politics”, but that attitude won’t change anything on either side of the aisle.

It needs to change. This kind of thing is bad for the country, and so is that attitude. Hatred, gloating, partisanship, and more things than I care to name is a witches brew that we will all end up drinking as Americans. And we will all suffer.

Rhinegold:

The CIA itself requested the Justice Department to investigate. You really need to face reality instead of the GOP Talking Points. As for the Chinese Delusion, the Republican Congress did not investigate that because their was nothing in it. And how could it be sexual harrassment between consenting adults? I know Conservatives are hard up for sex but I never beleived they can’t differentiate force from seduction. Then again, equating force with seduction would explain a lot about GOP behavior.

I think that the tragic flaw of all of these men, Bush, Clinton, Rove, etc. is simply one of hubris. That was certainly Clinton’s folly…he and the Democratic party that he built have been suffering from it for some time…just a blowjob is not the point…the charges were valid. The same applies to the Republicans involved in the current scandals…its a greek tragedy in the making whether you believe in their politics or not.

The arrogance and pride of these men to believe that they are beyond responsibility for the law…

I personally don’t know if these men are guilty of the crimes in question or not…I’m certainly lead to believe that they are. And if the indictments are handed down, and they are eventually found guilty, they should be nailed to the wall.

I could really give a flying f—- about the talking points of either side…I’m tired of suffering the hubris of these men.

“Those whom the gods would destroy they first make proud.”

-B.

Aldous,

And how could it be sexual harrassment between consenting adults?

The fact that you just posted this shows me that you don’t even read what I write, so I’ll not bother to waste my time anymore.

Womanmarine

if that were true, there wouldn’t even have to be an investigation would there? Or it not go on as long as it has? It always confuses me when someone posts that

I’m confused at the investigation knowing this The law is very clear that it is illegal if someone knowingly (key word) blew the cover of someone actively undercover or having been undercover for the past 5 years. Valerie Plame had not been in that role for more than 5 years when her name was mentioned by Novak, she was working at Langly after marrying and having two children.

I think there is some confusion about the law and her status personally. She was still listed as NOC even though she should not have been. The 1982 law is very specific and I’ll be surprised if anyone is indicted for it. Though if someone, like Fitzgerald, produces an indictment for it and shows how it applies, I’ll support it 100%.

I have heard that there is a 1917 law that could be used here, however there has only been 1 person successfully convicted on this law (and Clinton pardoned them) so I wonder how it’s ok for Clinton to pardon someone for something that’s so important to require this level of investigation? Of course, as I’ve said, if they are guilty of voilating a law, they should pay the price for that law.

Now, if Bush were to pardon someone indicted of the 1917 law, would the liberals scream bloody murder even though Clinton did the same? That would be interesting to watch I suppose…

Oh well, I guess we’ll find out soon enough.

Rhinegold, you’ve touched on the exact reason why Fitzgerald, if he has evidence of wrongdoing, needs to bring his investigaion to a head now and not string this along for additional months and years.

There could be political fallout, yes, but the fact is that nobody is actually going to be punished, not in any signifcant way, for any of these alleged crimes, proven or not. That’s a simple fact. What’s important is to get to the bottom of what actually happened so the public knows.

George Bush is going to pardon anybody convicted of anything —there’s no reason for him not to. By January of 2009, elections will be over, a new president having been already elected, and these scandals will be a fading memory. In fact, a presidential pardon can be issued to somebody for something they haven’t been convicted or even indicted for.

Bush, if he really wanted to and didn’t care about the political fallout, could issue pardons right now.

But considering all of the hearings, trials and potential appeals, there’s barely enough time to wrap up these cases before January of 2009 as it is. What happens too often with these open ended special investigations is that a prosecutor, by nature, doesn’t want to let people escape his grasp and starts looking for reasons to keep things going indefinitely when the original charges seem unlikely to stick.

What pisses me off is that the democrat leaders dont say shit then when the whole thing explodes they will take credit you’ll see. A politician is a politician is a politician, the only difference is that the neocons are truly evil. They take advantage of ignorant america, I dont want to write anymore Im tired of all this BS

Rhinehold:

You once again fail to see the bigger picture, as usual. Plame retained her Covert Status because the Company she worked for is a FRONT for the CIA. Now that you neocons have blown her cover, not only is Plame exposed but also all the Employees of the CIA Front Company. All their lives and the lives of ALL who associated with them are at risk.

Ofcourse, it doesn’t bother Republicans that this happened. Colateral Damage in the War of Terror and all that.

Rheinhold,

The fact is that Joe Wilson outed his wife days after the State of the Union speech on national TV.

Please cite.

1) Clinton was found guilty of lying under oath in a Sexual Harassment lawsuit.

No. He wasn’t.

2) He was found guilty of this.

No. He really wasn’t.

Good article, Walker. Frankly, I’m not too worried about President Bush losing Cheney and Rove. That’s got to be a good thing. For example, it’s Cheney, not Bush, who is putting the pressure on Congress to keep them from banning torture in America.

Actually, I’ve been impressed by Bush’s foreign policy since Dr. Rice took over at State. Bush obviously trusts her far more than he ever trusted Powell. We’re now working with the EU to contain Iran, working with France and the UN to liberalize Syria, and actually negotiating with North Korea — something Bush once said he’d never do.

The only big screwups in foreign policy right now are Iraq and China, and those policies are very much driven by Rumsfeld and Cheney.

As for the domestic scene, Republican economic policy is all crap anyhow, so it wouldn’t matter who was advising Bush. And all the GOP spin and attacks and negativity and BS can be laid at the feet of Rove.

No, I think on the whole Bush — and America — would be better off without Rove and Cheney.

I agree with the overall sentament here.

The good news of this scandal is that maybe FINALLY, the momentum of wrong decision making will slow or stop. However, that is still not the same as making the right decisions. We still have a UN ambassador who openly opposes the very idea of the UN. We still have MANY bridges to build with old allies and new ones in order to adress the mistrust and dsigust that this administration has earned us internationally. We still have evangelical fear mongers who are so afraid that they might ACTUALLY be wrong, they are strong arming the public schools into teaching their religious dogmas for them…to everybody’s kids regardless of the wishes of the parents.

The bad news is that it is not enough to slow or even halt the pendulum swing to the right…we MUST swing it back left while there is still a free America left to save. The political right wingers have an amazing ability to ignore or even re-sculpt information that does not appeal to them. This is not going to be an easy fight. We must be careful and actually seek to patiently CONVINCE them to consider other points of view on our nation’s problems. We won’t win by preaching only to the choir.

RGF