Democrats & Liberals: Archives

Paul, the problem is that the GOP is conflicted. On the one hand they argue the victims of Katrina need federal and public support. On the other hand, their bankruptcy reform just passed completely negates that principle, stating that the majority of folks who enter bankruptcy through no fault of their own, loss of job to the global marketplace, catastrophic medical costs as opposed to suffering and dying, or divorce which leaves one salary trying to support two households, deserve no federal or public support and should remain indebted and in servitude for years or even decades to CitiBank or Bank of America.

The libertarian wing of the GOP hold that everyone is on their own except for national defense, while the compassionate wing says, that we can’t leave Americans dying in nursing homes, in poverty, and in streets and alleys. Hence, no comprehensive, consistent approach to government, and no long term plan to deal with deficits and debt.

The House is now jumping on the CUT SOCIAL BENEFITS bandwagon to try to appease their fiscally conservative constituents as we enter another election cycle. It is one helluva mess and without a consistent, coherent long term plan, this government will discriminate as to who it helps and who it doesn’t based on whim and political circumstance.

I wrote a whole post based on that saying from Lao Tzu. It is better when you have the complete context. http://www.watchblog.com/republicans/archives/002230.html

There are some things only government can do. There are other things government can’t do. If you are talking about big infrastructure, that is the government’s task. But if you are talking about micromanagments or distribution, it is not. And if a lot of federal money goes to Louisiana, it will be stolen or wasted. We have to be careful to use government where it can be used.

Paul - you often draw a distorted view of conservatives. We don’t want zero government. We know government must build common infrastructure, ensure the common defense and domestic tranquility. The free market cannot work without the rule of law. What we fear is government management of the economy. We have seen that future and it doesn’t work.

Paul is raising some large theoretical questions about the scope of the role of government in general, but the Katrina mess is a pretty poor pretext for such a discussion considering the massive amount of federal money already earmarked for the Gulf States.

Saying that Bush is pushing some kind of laissez-faire, Darwinist, market-based solution here is absurd considering the fact that he’s already decided to toss public money at the problem with both hands (something I disagree with totally, in case you think I’m just defending the administration here).

Or is Paul’s point that the federal government needs to micromanage every detail of relief and reconstruction (legislate and oversee everything on the federal level) because local and state goverments simply can’t be trusted to solve their own problems even when they’ve been handed what amounts to a blank check to do just that?

I like that quote from Lao Tzu, which actually contradicts Paul’s argument.

The great leader is he who the people say:

‘We did it ourselves.’”

A very odd quote to use in support of the proposition that the people should absolutely not be trusted to do it to themselves!

Paul has offered yet another example of what the blue and green columns here love to do—offer logically self-contradictory complaints based on emotion. “Imposing his own view on others is Bush’s way of leading, he says, while also complaining that Bush ISN’T imposing enough views. How does this makes sense?

Jack

Yeah, who needs government management of the economy. If you had it, you couldn’t let the market which knows best run as smoothly as say WorldCom, Enron, and Tyco . And by the by, what’s the big Idea of the Feds messing with interest rates, best to let the Market decide inflation vs deflation.

Also, the cleanup of Katrina has been a stealer success by way of big government getting out of the way of private contractors like “Simon Roofing”, who charge the taxpayers a cool $2,480.00 a piece for big blue tarps that ordinary people pay less then $40 at Kmart. Well they do nail it down to the roofs in about 90 minutes a pop, so I guess it’s worth it (not). Another example of the honest work of a market economy untethered by that bothersome government management. Way to go Bush Co.

(I just couldn’t resist – I am also a fan of free markets. I just recognized free markets need government management to ensure everyone plays by the same rules and fairly).

All,

I think it’s fair to say that Bush is one of those “every man for himself” types. However, this is unpopular stance in the wake of this disaster. So he is throwing money at his friends (Ashbritt and Acquisition Solutions) while neglecting the people (junking wage requirements and affirmative-action in federal contracts), in a big PR push.

There are those who argue (like Bush), that he will not shift principles or shift positions based upon polls and focus groups. It’s a wonder then, why does the White House spend so much money on polls and focus groups.

A very odd quote to use in support of the proposition that the people should absolutely not be trusted to do it to themselves!

It’s not contradictory, sanger. But Jack is right, it should be in context. What Lao Tzu is saying is that if you’re a good leader, the people don’t feel like they’re being “told what to do”.

Saying that Bush is pushing some kind of laissez-faire, Darwinist, market-based solution here is absurd considering the fact that he’s already decided to toss public money at the problem with both hands

No, it’s actually valid. While President Bush is shoveling money at the problem, he’s not offering any kind of direction or oversight.

Or is Paul’s point that the federal government needs to micromanage every detail of relief and reconstruction

sanger, this is exactly the false choice Paul is pointing out: “According to Bush, either you as an individual do it yourself or the government tells you what to do.”

Some of you guys might want to assume Paul knows what he’s talking about and read the article a little more carefully. Good article, Paul.

Katrina complaints…

My tax money should not pay to rebuild a 2 million dollar house, a sports stadium or a floating casino. Also, my tax money shouldn’t go to rebuild a city that is under sea level. You wouldn’t build your house on quicksand would you? You want to live below sea level, do your country some good and join the Navy.

The US Government didn’t create the Hurricane as a way to eradicate the black people of New Orleans. The US government did not cause global warming that caused the hurricane. We’ve been coming out of an ice age for over a million years.

A mandatory evacuation means just that…Get the hell out. Don’t blame the government after they tell you to go. If they hadn’t said anything, the argument might be valid. They said get out…if you didn’t it’s your fault, not theirs.

Bush is right. The government doesn’t know better than the locals. At least he’s smart enough to know that. The problem is that the bureaucraps aint smart enough to know it. They think that they pocess all knowledge and that the rest of us are just a bunch of bumbling fools.
Go ahead get the government involved in rebuilding New Orleans. Then when things really get screwed up you’ll have something else to bash Bush for.

A mandatory evacuation means just that…Get the hell out. Don’t blame the government after they tell you to go. If they hadn’t said anything, the argument might be valid. They said get out…if you didn’t it’s your fault, not theirs.

Typical neo con compassion.
“We don’t care if you don’t have a WAY to get out… you can WALK the hundred or so miles to safety… or have someone push your wheelchair.”

“We don’t care if you don’t have any money to buy food and shelter after you walk to safety, THAT’S YOUR FAULT.”

“We don’t care if you don’t have any place to go… you were stupid not to have friends or family strategically placed in safe zones”

My tax money should not pay to rebuild a 2 million dollar house, a sports stadium or a floating casino. Also, my tax money shouldn’t go to rebuild a city that is under sea level. You wouldn’t build your house on quicksand would you? You want to live below sea level, do your country some good and join the Navy.

neo con had no problem bailing out the insurance companies who were responsible for damage done in the 9/11 attacks. When the next terrorist attack comes, as neo con knows is ‘inevitable’ unleashing areosol anthrax or a dirty bomb in downtown Manhatten, will neo con blame the stock brokers for stupidly choosing to work in an obvious terrorist target?

But back to the topic at hand. The endless litany of bush policy failures has caused him to straddle the fence on the re-building of New Orleans. It’s true, no one knows for sure what to do. Only history will judge whether or not the correct path was chosen. And yes, neo con, if bush chooses a wrong path, and history proves his policy faulty, we will judge him accordingly. By doing nothing, however, he has already chosen a bad policy, and is most deserving of all the bashing he gets as a result of it.

I’ll tell you something that we should NOT do:

THE MISSISSIPPI PRESS Tuesday, September 27, 2005

U.S. Rep. Gene Taylor, at a town meeting in Gautier Monday, said he plans to introduce a
bill that would allow home and business owners who received damage from storm surge
from Hurricane Katrina to receive compensation
retroactively through the National Flood Insurance Program… In Taylor’s bill, Mississippians would have the option of paying 10 years of back premiums for flood insurance, which would be subtracted
from their settlement. The insurance would cover up to the amount of the damage or $250,000, whichever is less>

If this bill passes, I’m going straight to my life insurance agent to tell him I want to pay my premiums out of my death benefit. That way, I’ll have more spending money available today!

THOM HOUTS said in response to my post….

“We don’t care if you don’t have a WAY to get out… you can WALK the hundred or so miles to safety… or have someone push your wheelchair.â€

There are presently an estimated 300,000 cars that are water damaged in the NO area. Given that an evacuation order was given and, based on the earlier of the evacuation orders I wonder why these vehicles were not used. I guess people
chose to walk rather than drive or ride.

Somewhere between 150-200 school buses never moved from their parking lot. At 40 passengers/bus that’s 6,000-8,000 additional people that could have been driven to safety.

Taking people to a huge domed stadium where it is well known that no stockpile of emergency provisions is available nor is there a good way to get the provisions there, is not the fault of the government.

Attached is Boston Herald article showing where an investigation has revealed where some of our tax dollars are being used by Hurricane Katrina evacuees.

This should make everyone proud to be an American.

http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=107538

Steve,

We don’t care if you don’t have a WAY to get out… you can WALK the hundred or so miles to safety… or have someone push your wheelchair.

There are presently an estimated 300,000 cars that are water damaged in the NO area. Given that an evacuation order was given and, based on the earlier of the evacuation orders I wonder why these vehicles were not used. I guess people
chose to walk rather than drive or ride.

Or these people don’t own these vehicles or can’t drive or can’t afford the gazoline…

Plus it’s hard to drive a stolen vehicule with empty fuel tanks when you don’t know how to drive and are in a wheelchair…

Somewhere between 150-200 school buses never moved from their parking lot. At 40 passengers/bus that’s 6,000-8,000 additional people that could have been driven to safety.

Where goes the buses drivers, BTW?
Someone knows?

A car driving licence don’t turn one into a bus or truck driver, right?

Taking people to a huge domed stadium where it is well known that no stockpile of emergency provisions is available nor is there a good way to get the provisions there, is not the fault of the government.

Agreed. It’s fault of shelters planificators.

You want to live below sea level, do your country some good and join the Navy.

Good one, steve.

The US government did not cause global warming that caused the hurricane.

Agreed. Global Climate Change did it.

We’ve been coming out of an ice age for over a million years.

Since last half century, we’re not anymore coming but rushing out of an ice age. Ice samples show that never happened *that* fast in previous warming erea in the last millions of years.

But who care, humans can’t be the ones impacting the fragile climate balance. No way!
Better blame… blame… polar bears for melting icebergs due to excessive (and un-moral) sex activities?

Philippe Houdoin
Somewhere between 150-200 school buses never moved from their parking lot. At 40 passengers/bus that’s 6,000-8,000 additional people that could have been driven to safety.

Where goes the buses drivers, BTW?
Someone knows?

Yeah I know. The bus drivers left town because the stupid mayor didn’t tell them to put their butts on the buses an start evacuating people.

If youall want to holler about someone not caring about the poor in New Orleans, why aint youall hollering about that stupid assed mayor who wouldn’t order the school buses used to evacuate the poor?
Roach said there are between 150-200 school buses that weren’t used. And these are just the school buses. How may transit buses does New Orleans own? Why weren’t these put into use as well?
Is it degrading to the poor to expect them to ride to safty on a public owned bus?
Now ALL them buses, that could have been used and driven out of the storms path, are still sitting on the lots. But now they are damaged and guess who the dumbie mayor wants to pay for them?

Philippe:

To be honest, if I knew a Cat 5 Hurricane was coming, I wouldnt worry about my lack of a bus license. I’d take the damn thing and drive as many people to safety as possible.

Also, I wonder how many of the people left behind had relatives who could have helped. Or friends who could have helped. Or neighbors who could have helped. Some people just got out while they could, and screw the rest of em. Now some of these are complaining that they are not being taken care of well enough.

Many people did help and many people are happy that they have been helped. Its not the doom and gloom that the media is spreading…we know now how badly the media did its job and actually caused deaths as a result.

Hi Philippe,

There were only 462,000 total population in NO before Katrina. I honestly do not know why 300,000 cars were left behind but IMO it is reasonable to assume that some who claimed they had no way out could have found a car to use. The cars were not water damaged until after the flood.

Not using the school buses as part of the evacuation has to be the fault of city and state government for not incorporating them into an evacuation plan.

Even if you eliminate 50% of the cars for having no gas, being inoperable, or, being someones 2nd family car left behind, you still have 150,000 cars that could have been used.

My points about the evacuation, etc. exclude the hospital and wheelchair people simpl;y because it should be a given that they would have been a top priority. However, you are right that a wheelchair person or someone in a hospital bed would not be able to drive a car.

Three cheers for Ron and joebagodonuts :>)

Joe,

To be honest, if I knew a Cat 5 Hurricane was coming, I wouldnt worry about my lack of a bus license. I’d take the damn thing and drive as many people to safety as possible.

Now you looks like Sandra Bullock in Speed, Joe!
:-)

I dunno myself. Maybe in such situation with prescient knowledge about how bad this hurricane will be and that levees will break, maybe I’ll had tried to drive a bus too. If I could had figured out how to open the door, I mean. These buses weren’t parked doors wide open, right.
But we both ignore how safely we could drive a bus in such condition.

Some people just got out while they could, and screw the rest of em.

Yep, and this “everyone for himself” was what shock opinions the most, I guess.

Many people did help and many people are happy that they have been helped. Its not the doom and gloom that the media is spreading…we know now how badly the media did its job and actually caused deaths as a result.

Now you blame medias for deaths!? Don’t these deaths were in vast majority due to hurricane immediate damages like water flooding?
I can’t see how medias too much focused on bad side of the events could have caused additional deaths. Care to explain?

Philippe:

The media ran rampant with stories of murder and mayhem in New Orleans. Please recall the stories about armed gangs roaming the streets, and the multiple times that aidgivers were shot at.

In reality very little of this happened. But what DID happen was that aidgivers were pulled out of action for fear of their own safety. People who needed help died as a result of these delays.

The media did its usual reporting before checking the facts. In this case, there were real life and death ramifications.

Here’s a comment from the Wall Street Journal:

“Accounts from local officials of widespread looting and unspeakable violence — which now appear to have been significantly overstated — raised the specter at the time that soldiers might be forced to confront or even kill American citizens. The prospect of such a scenario added political and tactical complications to the job of filling the city with troops and set back relief efforts by days.”

The WSJ is pointing at officials who overstated the problems. I’m pointing at the media who broadcast the overstated problems without investigating for themselves.

So now neo con is suggesting that those who were too poor to own a car should have STOLEN a car to escape. Remembering that these are the same neo cons who called for ‘shoot on sight’ rules of engagement for looters, it’s only fair to believe that these same neo cons ASSUME that all those hungry people we saw at the Super Dome had the inherent knowledge of how to steal a car or bus without the keys. And of course they would also have the wherewithal to steal gas from closed gas stations in the NO area, or from operational gas stations outside the area. Careful neo con, your racist prejudices are showing.

It’s amazing how resourceful people can be when their lives depend on it.

Where there’s a will there’s a way.

BTW, many of the “stranded” people had no trouble looting stores and then later complained they got no help as they were walking waist deep in water carrying a TV or shopping bag full of booze and cigarettes.

In fact, the reason many of those folks were stranded at all is because they knew that after the evacuation they would have the looting opportunity.

Steve props to you for not even attempting to hide your racism.
I’m 50 years old and I wouldn’t know how to start a car without a key even if my life depended on it.

And just how “many” of the stranded engaged in looting of the non survival items. Either you have facts and figures to back that up, or it’s based on your racist prejudices.

And just how “many” of the stranded refused to flee because they made the conscious decision to stay behind for the purpose of looting? Again, you got facts and figures? Confessions of a self destructive looter? Or again merely going on racist prejudices?

I really wish more neo cons would express their racism as openly as you… it would guarantee a turnover of seats in the mid terms.

THOM HOUTS
I really wish more neo cons would express their racism as openly as you… it would guarantee a turnover of seats in the mid terms.

And I wish more neolibs would express their racism more oopenly, it would guarantee they’d loose their seats as well.
Then maybe we could start getting elected officals that really do give a damn about the people of this country. Not just about themselves like our current crop of idiots.

What about Katrina as a test for liberalism. When we critize conservative responce to helping the people of New Orleans, we must first look at the context of the situation which spawned the problem. The larger question of what the government has done to help these people who clearly required it before and need help even more now, has largely been ignored. Prior to 1994 democrats held the house and senate for 40 years (with two 2 year handovers in the senate). They held the presidency for a fair half of that time. Name one social program started in that era that has been overturned yet. But are they working? Look at New Orleans and tell me that they are. And don’t just ask for more money, because you have had over 60 years from FDR until now to do that. We need to study changes to our nations social services for the young to the old, from education to social security. Don’t get me wrong, we need to help these people, but Katrina shows that the current system is not doing that.

“Name one social program started in that era that has been overturned yet. But are they working? Look at New Orleans and tell me that they are.”

I’m not sure I understand what you mean there josh. Do you mean name one social program started from 1954 to 1994 that works? Or do you need one social program started in that era that is working for the victims of Hurricane Katrina.
If it’s the former I can rip off a few off the top of my head..’
Head Start
WIC
Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program
State Children’s Health Insurance Program

If you need social programs that are working for the victims of Katrina, I know that WIC is providing food for displaced mother’s and children regardless of their current location and I know that SCHIP is providing vaccines for children victims of Katrina.

Is this what you meant. Did I get it right? Do I get a copy of “How to Talk to a Liberal” as a prize?

THOM HOUTS,

I am 62 years old and I could easilly figure a way to get a car started. If I couldn’t do it myself I would certainly spread the word that it needed to be done.

Better yet here is a link to a site that shows the city of NO crime statistics in every catagory imaginable. You will note that auto theft is 2 and 1/2 times the national average.

In fact, every crime possible has much higher than national average rates in NO

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=New+Orleans&state=LA

Enjoy reading.

Steve,
Thanks for the link. Looking at it I have to ask.
Do people really want to live there?

Ron,

I agree. Truthfully though even though my political position is a bit to the right of Attilla the Hun I do sympathize with people who have lost everything and also with people who are simply less fortunate than most.

My only requirement for sympathy however is that the person or group does something, anything to help themselves. I don’t think that’s asking too much.

Nobody can ever tell me that everything that happened in NO was entirely the fault of the government. Sure there were some problems and things they could have done better but the same is true for the people.

I do not feel it is racist to object to evacuees spending the money they are given on booze, strip clubs, lap dances, lottery tickets, gambling casinos, etc. Certainly this is overall a rather small percentage but, that number should be zero.

Nobody can tell me that there wasn’t more than enough people who could boost a car among those who stayed behind. If you can loot and still find the drug dealer, you know someone who can start a car.

And now your tax money and mine is going to help rebuild million dollar houses, floating casinos and a sports stadium. All on a sand bar.

Steve,
If your Political view is some where right of Atila the Hun’s, Where does that put mine?

My only requirement for sympathy however is that the person or group does something, anything to help themselves. I don’t think that’s asking too much.

NO! Thats not asking to much. I didn’t see very many trying to help themselves though, Unless you want to count those that were helping themselves to TVs, beer, and cancer sticks,

Nobody can tell me that there wasn’t more than enough people who could boost a car among those who stayed behind. If you can loot and still find the drug dealer, you know someone who can start a car.

Maybe they should have called me. I’m no car thief but I knew one and he showed me how to hot wire a car. But I wouldn’t have hot wired the cars. I would’ve hot wired the buses that the dumb f—- mayor left sitting on the lots. That way eveyone would’ve had a ride out.

Ron,

I would be inclined to think that your political position is very close to mine. There is one final membership test however.

Do you subscribe to the “big hole” theory as relates to war, not anatomy?

Hmm, most of the looting was for booze, tv’s and cigarettes. These people spent their money on lottery tickets, booze and lap dances instead of planning for the inevitable evacuation they will be responsible for. These are not racist statements they are elitist statements. Just making statements like that without anything to back them up seems to be a classic case of class prejudice. Steve do you have stats on what these particular people spent their money on or is it just some generalization you have of people in this economic class?
As far as stealing cars to evacuate that is a fine idea. I’m sure those in the hospitals, jails, senior citizens homes were all wheeling out of their beds as fast as they could to get on an internet site to find out how to hot wire a car. They were running as fast as they could in their walkers to the nearest street corner to ask a crack addict the proper way to break into a car and hot wire it. But as they were about to get to that gang club house for that much needed lesson in boosting cars they got sidetracked at the liquor store. They just couldn’t pass up the free tv’s. Their nic fit got to them so they just sat down with a smoke and waited for flood waters to come.

“Certainly this is overall a rather small percentage but, that number should be zero.”

And yet you use it in your arguement that applied to everyone. For the small percentage of people you were accuratly referring to I agree. For the other 95% you have a bit of explaining to do. If you wish to have any credibility to anyone other than Attila the Hun that is.

My post made reference to misdirected spending of relief funds by evacuees and was qualified by the following : Certainly this is overall a rather small percentage but, that number should be zero.

An example/proof if you will is provided in this link.
http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=107538

The looting, etc. is a matter of public record and was well covered in all manner of media. (TV news and documentary shows, newspaper, etc.) You would have to be living in a cocoon not to have seen it.

A chart showing the crime statistics in NO is attached so you can see the further indication that the propensity for crime is well documented.

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=New+Orleans&state=LA

I’m not sure I understand what you mean there josh. -Tom Houts

Clearly. But even so I will show you that all the programs you claim are working, aren’t.
First, SCHIP was started in 1997 not in the democrat era, so I guess you misunderstand yourself and acctually are more conservative than you realize, since it was a REPUBLICAN initiative.
Next, the Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program only pays for people’s Home heating and/or cooling needs. Sure it helps some people, but because it only applied to people who lived in houses, the people who recieve the funds paid for up to 61% the funds with their own tax dollars. Why don’t you just give them a tax break? Also, since these people do live in houses they are not nesecarily the poorest of the poor who need the help the most.
Third, WIC helps about 7.5 million people in the US annually. Yet it only reaches 53,000 in New Orleans, a city with extremely high poverty rates and one of the highest crime rates in the country. If you want facts to back up my assertions, 8752 people died of starvation in 2004 of this 37% were infants and 16% were mothers of infants. Are you seriously telling me that WIC achieves its goals of helping Women and Infants and Children? Those stats should make your stomach churn, but you claim the program is working. Instead of pasting “Am I liberal or just well-educated?” stickers on your car why don’t you try and get some edumacation!
Finally, of the 761 elementary schools in Louisiana (the state that recieves the 6th most NHSA dollars), only 76 are above the national average in all four categories (math, science, social studies and language). Head Start works quite well there too.
Basically, I am not going to sit here and “Slander” you. I am just going to ask that instead of just assuming that since a program is conservative it is aimed at the distruction of the universe, you do some research of your own. People on both sides of the isle have good ideas about how to best help America (you just didn’t pick the best examples of liberal’s good ideas).

Besides, I do support Head Start and even volunteer for them. They just need some new management. WIC could use the same.

steve smith
Do you subscribe to the “big hole†theory as relates to war, not anatomy?

In 99 cases out of 50 yes.

To be honest, if I knew a Cat 5 Hurricane was coming, I wouldnt worry about my lack of a bus license. I’d take the damn thing and drive as many people to safety as possible.

On TV I saw the Lousiana State Police arrest seven black guys for escaping in a stolen mail truck. Guns drawn, shovin ‘em around, slappin the cuffs on — they made it to safety… in the state penn.

“On TV I saw the Lousiana State Police arrest seven black guys for escaping in a stolen mail truck. Guns drawn, shovin ‘em around, slappin the cuffs on — they made it to safety… in the state penn.”

The police were pissed off because they had their eyes on that truck.

Steve the link you provided gave no indication of the percentage of those stuck in NO for the hurricane who were unruly drunks who decided to steal instead of evacuate. In fact much of it seemed to show it was only a small portion of them who were involved.
Your charts of NO crime doesn’t work for your arguement either as it doesn’t take into account the percentage of those left behind who were indeed criminals. I would argue that those who couldn’t leave by their own accord probably weren’t criminals as they were sick or old or infirmed. While I can agree the crime rate was high my problem with your arguement is you applied it to all when you yourself admitted it was a small percentage. You can’t admit that then use it to cover everyone. In short there are far more people left behind that were not criminals than those that were.

zakquiet,

I was only referencing the crime stats to show that the overall record could indicate a trend. If everythi8ng is in proportion to segments of population, it is reasonable to assume (for the sake of debate only) that enough people with the ability to steal vehicles, etc. were available.

Of course there were far more non-criminals left behind than there were criminals.

My point is that if people are going to behave in that manner (mis-using the relief money), it would behoove the government to better control the distribution.