Democrats & Liberals: Archives

AP,
I already have a voter registration card, so I don’t really see how having a (free) federal voter ID would be that much of a difference. I agree though that Georgia seems to be trying to in reinstate a poll tax — and that’s a bad thing no matter how you look at it.
Where the idea might become iffy (same with a national ID card) is determining exactly what kind of info the card will hold on it. If it’s nothing more than proof of voter registration, I don’t have a problem with it — but if it contains a lot of personal info, or even someones party affiliation, I wouldn’t like it at all.

Wow AP. Do we agree?
I don’t agree with the arguments about people not being able to get cards and being ‘disenfranchised’. Being poor is no excuse not to be able to go get a FREE card.
People who do not have a driver’s license go to the same place to get an ID card. We all have to have some form of ID to do just about everything.
If people can come up with the money to get a driver’s license … they can come up with the money to buy a voter’s registration card - if they truely want to vote. At the same time there may be a way to get an exemption through SS or public assistance?
What should be on the card?
polling place? address? picture? thumbprint? signature?
What is the protection against fraud? We all know that ID cards are counterfeited.
A number that is recorded in a database showing a copy of our cards?
Absentee ballot: Must include a photo copy of your card? Then it is checked against the database?
Somehow this database also records that you voted and will catch you if you try to vote again in person?
Put a strip on it, like a credit card? It records that you voted so you can’t vote again in the same election?
If you have residence in more than one state that has to be on your card? You have to get your card in your ‘home’ state?
So many questions. Too many people finding the answers?

I agree with Adrienne that party affiliation should NOT be on it.
Maybe this is our chance to do away with that all together and just let people vote. Make the politicians talk to all of us and not just those they think will vote for them.
The polling would be more interesting and maybe more accurate.

I favor a voter picture I.D. registration to be presented and validated at the assigned polling place.

The picture would be taken at the time of registration (much as it is for a driver’s license) and a bar coded registration number assigned for validation purposes at the time of voting.

Details can be worked out for absentee ballots, military voting, etc.

SS numbers and/or party affiliation should not be a part of the process.

I would probably be considered a Libertarian by most… However one of the Libertarian ideals that I just can’t seem to get too excited about is the privacy “big brother” fear… I personally have very little problem with the idea of having a card that has my picture, fingerprint, etc on it that could serve as my drivers liscense, passport, voter id, social security card etc. Things that have to do with ID.

I just can’t help but feel that if your doing nothing wrong then you have nothing to worry about. If the government wanted to track me right now they could. (probably just as easily as they could if I had the National ID because most of my transations are ATM or credit card anyway). But, why? If they are really that interested in my groceries, eating out, buying gas once a week, and attempting to pay all my bills on time then have a great time! I’m sure it will be loads of excitment for them.

I do agree with Adrienne that party affiliation should not be a part of it. That should have no bearing on anything as far as daily transactions of life (including voting) IMO.

Not so sure I’d feel comfortable lumping my credit cards and ATM cards into it at this point. Mainly because that is personal finance, not ID. But if it were on a stick that could read my retinal or fingerprint instead so that you could not make a transation without the “scan” identification then sure, lump it all togther. Less junk to carry around.

Of course my opinions on this are dependent upon the setting of strict guidelines on when and how the information can be used. I’m not blind to the idea that this could be easily abused by both private and government groups. Therefore, hefty penalties resulting in fines or imprisonment would be essential to keep this from being abused. And this information should not be accessable by private parties, business or individuals, with the exception of the transactions that directly involve them (such as a credit card transaction being able to be “seen” by that credit card company) period. Under penalty of law. The only people that should be able to acces any of the “trackable” information is law enforcement, and then only if there is just cause to do so (a warrent).

Might be scary to some, but with my fairly typical (some might say boring) life I think that “Big Brother” would have much better things to do than watch me. And even if he does he would probably soon yawn and change the channel. :-)

Brad, “I just can?t help but feel that if your doing nothing wrong then you have nothing to worry about.” Libertarian idea, not, that is for sure.
Personally, I think we’re all running in the wrong direction. It’s being made into something about individuals commiting election fraud. But, it’s the Harris’ of the nation who pervert the system for their own parties gain.
Maximize voter access, and minimize political influence. That should be the goal. The rest is just distraction (IM(ns?)HO)

I am a victim of ID theft. This has been a 6 year battle. According to the law I have little legal standing because I have not lost money. I have had cells phones turned on, apts rented, utilities turned on, checking account opened and then the bounced checks came in. I have had collection agencies call and get rather nasty about me saying no not mine. I did all the right stuff, police report, cancelled credit cards, reported it to credit companies etc. I even had to go to court to prevent a judgement against me for one of the checks. Until the govt actually puts some teeth AND enforcement in the laws about ID theft I do not want another piece of ID that somebody will accept.

I’m against both a federal voting ID and a national ID. Why? It adds another layer of difficulty in voting for the poor and minorities who are already under-represented in elections.

It is the same concept as a poll tax as it makes people jump thru hoops to be able to vote. Most of you have driver’s licenses, however a large number of people do not. So you then encourage this bunch of people to vote by absentee ballot. That then becomes the “fraud” issue and you make it harder for an absentee ballot to take place. Forcing home bound or those without reliable transportation to go thru even more to be able to vote. So what happens? They don’t vote.

Unless the federal or state governments involved figure out a better way to issue these voter ID cards? It is a form of limiting who can vote to me much more of a block than a financial poll tax.

Lisa:
“It adds another layer of difficulty in voting for the poor and minorities who are already under-represented in elections.”

All people whether rich or poor and of any race must have some form of identification.

“It is the same concept as a poll tax as it makes people jump thru hoops to be able to vote.”

Then people already do jump through hoops, because in all the states I have lived in (4), I’ve had to provide ID info and my current address when registering to vote.

“Most of you have driver�s licenses, however a large number of people do not.”

But everyone can get a State ID card, and most people who don’t drive automatically get them in order to live a normal life, ie: open a bank account, go to college, get a job, get a credit card, etc.

“So you then encourage this bunch of people to vote by absentee ballot. That then becomes the �fraud� issue and you make it harder for an absentee ballot to take place.”

Even when applying for an absentee ballot, one must provide ID info and address.

“Forcing home bound or those without reliable transportation to go thru even more to be able to vote. So what happens? They don�t vote.”

Homebound people could simply ask their mailman to pick them up an absentee ballot application since they are available at the post office (at least they are in my state of California). Also, local libraries often have them, so by placing a phone call to their library and explaining their situation, they could probably get the form sent to their address.
But even then, they must be able to provide ID info and their address in order to register.

AP, a national ID card will quickly become indispensable for living in America outside the blackmarket realm. A voter ID card is far more elective and could not be so ubiquitously required to live in America. Huge difference.

Speaking of former President Carter…
On Monday he spoke at the American University in Washington and during a question and answer session at the end of his speech said that there was no doubt in his mind that Gore won the 2000 election, and made remarks about Ohio’s 2004 election results as well.
Here is a link to the audio of Carter answering the question.

Not everyone has a State Photo Id, and each state has their own requirements of what is needed to get one. Creating a federal voter ID card would necessitate an extra step. How do you balance the different requirements each state has for a state id? Do you demand the state id? If so then how to you make those available to those who do not have one?

As to the whole fallacy of you have to have a photo id to cash checks? Not true, go into any poor area and you will see numerous places that will cash checks especially government ones for a high fee, these companies were created and profiting because not all people do have photo id’s. The majority of them have their own system of verifying identity and creating their own photo id’s for check cashing. Those are not acceptable forms of government identification.

I live in a large complex with over 500 mailboxes, I’ve never met my mailman nor would he know who I am, that is the same in most places where actual house mail delivery does not happen unless it is a certified letter. Quite a few homebound people do not have id’s because others have their power of attorney to cash checks yet they still want to vote. I volunteer at a nursing home where a good majority of these residents are still politically active and vote, they no longer drive nor do they have state ID cards.

This type of Voter fraud is not the real huge issue to me, concern should be placed on not having a paper trail for electronic voting. The realistic numbers of fraud that has been proven to take place in voting is not in high enough numbers to necessitate this type of an action.

This will prevent more people from voting, no matter how you try to define it. Nor will it work to prevent fraud on any appreciable level in my opinion.

Making everyone, including “the poor” (whoever they are) have an identification card to vote is a good thing. Most of us have decent identification anyway because we work, drive, go to school or do things that citizens commonly do. If someone is so poor or disengaged that he doesn’t have access to some kind of proper identification, he has more problems than just not being able to vote.

Making this person engage enough in society to do what normal citizens do (be able to identify himself) would probably be of great benefit to him. Who knows, maybe this would be the first small step for him to stop being poor and figure out how to get his life on track.

“Not everyone has a State Photo Id, and each state has their own requirements of what is needed to get one.”

Usually it’s two forms of identification. Social Security card or number and birth certificate should do it for Americans. For immigrants, passport and green card should suffice.

“Creating a federal voter ID card would necessitate an extra step.”

I dont see how it would unless the govt. decided to encode a lot of personal information about you on it, or demand that you be finger printed and have a picture taken by them. (And as I said earlier, if they wanted to put a lot of info on them, I’d be totally against them.)
If if was just basic proof of voter registration, the state could send the info that you are registered with them on to the Feds — assuming the state would still make you file your voter registration with them. It could be exactly how it is now, but you’d get a card from the Fed’s sent to you in the mail.

“How do you balance the different requirements each state has for a state id?”

I really believe most states just require two pieces of ID to get a state ID.

“Do you demand the state id?”

I guess if they wanted to put a picture on them the state could send them your drivers licence or state ID picture.

“If so then how to you make those available to those who do not have one?”

Like I said, anyone who doesn’t get a drivers license or state ID in order to live a normal existence probably doesn’t care to have one (in which case, whether they vote or not is the very least of their worries.), or, they really need to visit their state social services dept. in order to have people walk them through the process of getting valid ID in order to live one.

“As to the whole fallacy of you have to have a photo id to cash checks?”

I didn’t even mention check cashing places.

“Those are not acceptable forms of government identification.”

Nor should they be.

“I live in a large complex with over 500 mailboxes, I�ve never met my mailman nor would he know who I am, that is the same in most places where actual house mail delivery does not happen unless it is a certified letter.”

In that case they could call or visit the post office to get the form. Or like I said, call or visit their local library.

“Quite a few homebound people do not have id�s because others have their power of attorney to cash checks yet they still want to vote.”

I don’t see how they could be getting govt. checks unless they’d been put through the system at least once — which of course would have required ID at that time.

“I volunteer at a nursing home where a good majority of these residents are still politically active and vote, they no longer drive nor do they have state ID cards.”

Then they must have valid voter registration cards, yes?

Jack:
“If someone is so poor or disengaged that he doesn’t have access to some kind of proper identification, he has more problems than just not being able to vote.”

That’s funny, I just wrote practically the same thing as this in my post!

All

Interesting topic.

I hold two passports:US and Italian.
In Italy I have an Identity card which is great for me.Cashing checks at the bank,hotels reservations,back-up to my passport while flying thru the EU..overall ,all Europeans love them.

My girlfriend Olga is a Russian nationial.There they have @ passports…a regular one(to travel outside Russia) and a “local” passport which is their identity card.

The primary reason for the local passport is to prevent illegal immigrants from moving around.
If you don’t have a local passport,you simple are taken to the police stration where you are given a fine.

Here(the states) I have nothing to hide..I tygthink a FREE nationial identity card is terrific….as do the majority of Americans.I think

sic eagle, a national ID card, NO! A national Voter ID card, yes. Most Americans don’t want to be tracked with every transaction they make on a daily basis, which is what a National ID card sets the stage for. However, a national Voter ID card required and used only for registration and voting, is something most Americans would support to insure the fair and honest voting every couple years.

Do people who are psychiatric institutions have the opportunity to vote? How about those who cannot read and write? Also, do naturalized citizens who have chosen to live in ethnic communities and communicate in their “native” tongue typically vote?

steve:
“Do people who are psychiatric institutions have the opportunity to vote? How about those who cannot read and write?”

I would assume those people (or perhaps the people who take care of them) would also have to contact their state social services dept. for assistance in those cases.

“Also, do naturalized citizens who have chosen to live in ethnic communities and communicate in their “native” tongue typically vote?”

I don’t know about this, it could be that those communties make sure to have the voting info and ballots printed in their native languages?

We have the mechanism for this already. Most people have driver’s licenses. These could be effectively turned into National Driver’s licenses and voter identity cards at the same time. Those who do not have or do not need or cannot get a Driver’s licenes(es) could get the Identification Card from the same location. The cards could be easily encrypted in the same manner that AtM cards are and provide a higher degree of safety. The infrastructure is in place to track the licenses based on residency and house the voter registration information based on place of residence. The only thing that would be required to change is the ID number itself. The infrastructure exists already to link each of the state’s databases to each other. As people migrate/move from one state to another, the information would migrate as well. The cards could be stored value cards that could also contain an encoded receipt of all voter transactions executed by the voter thereby providing a two instance audit trail (at the voter booth and in the voter’s pocket) of how votes were cast. A local kiosk (i.e. an ATM could be equipped) or someone’s PC equipped with a very inexpensive card reader could call up and print the receipt.

The technology and communications links are there, it’s time we got away from this idea that we lose liberty if we have a national ID. The security is available to inhibit ID theft and fraud. It’s time we moved toward something like this.

AP,

“But frankly, I’m not convinced we need a voter ID at all, and if you think we do, why not just have a national ID card?”

I’m for voter ID cards, because of all the election fraud lately. IF it’s done well it would significantly cut down on such fraud by both major parties (as well as any minor ones that may have took advantage of our system).

As for national ID cards, I don’t really have much of a problem with them. Especially if they replace state ID cards.

Does this mean we actually agree?

Also, would the voter ID card and the national ID card be one card, or separate cards?

ID cards are too easy to fake.
If we’re going to have reliable identification,
it should be biometric, which requires no ID card.
The biometrics should be a combination of 3 (or more) measurements that can be quickly and
accurately measured, and are very difficult to falsify:

(1) Iris (quick and easy; more unique than DNA; already being used)
(2) finger prints (quick and easy)
(3) hand geometry/prints (quick and easy)
(4) DNA (when it can be done quickly)
(5) facial geometry
(6) retina scans
(7) voice prints
(8) vein geometry

With IDentity theft becoming America’s fastest growing crime, reliable IDentification is required, and it would be extremely difficult
to falsify 3 (or more) biometrics.

Some good uses are:
Good uses for Biometric IDentification:
[X] drivers licenses
[X] pass ports, visas
[X] voting
[X] banks, credit cards, checking, check writing, ATMs
[X] office buildings, work areas
[X] time-in/time-out (e.g. similar to time cards)
[X] access to homes, apartments
[X] access to public airlines, mass transit systems
[X] access to public buildings, courts, hospitals, etc.
[X] access to public and private buildings
[X] access to public and private schools, universities
[X] access to laboratories
[X] access to storage / supply / inventory rooms
[X] access to safes
[X] access to medical information
[X] access to personal information / property
[X] access to secret, classified, proprietary information
[X] access to computer systems
[X] access to weapons and weapon systems
[X] access to vehicles, machines, instruments
[X] access to any area where restricted access is required
[X] pilot licenses, law-enforcement licenses, medical licenses, etc.
[X] tracking non-citizens with expired visas
[X] tracking criminals
[X] tracking repeat offenders trespassing national borders illegally

The problem with ID cards is the same problem that exists with driver’s licenses and credit cards…they are too easy to falsify.

… I just can’t seem to get too excited about is the privacy “big brother†fear… I personally have very little problem with the idea of having a card that has my picture, fingerprint, etc on it that could serve as my drivers liscense, passport, voter id, social security card etc. Things that have to do with ID. …I just can’t help but feel that if your doing nothing wrong then you have nothing to worry about.

BradM,
I agree. And, I’m very cynical of government. But, as you say, government can already abuse information. That danger exists with or without a reliable form of IDentification. The problem with ID cards though, is they are not a good solution, since they can be falsified.
No IDentification system will be 100% fool-proof, but biometrics are the hardest to falsify, require no ID card(s), and government and businesses are already using them (that are very quick, and inexpensive). The government is way, way, behind on this problem, which is why we have a serious IDentify theft problem in this country.

d.a.n, that’s pretty interesting. Maybe I’m just old, but having a physical ID card feels more comfortable. It’s gonna take a couple days to wrap my head around the fact that I, myself could be my only form of ID.

What happens if I’m a victim of ID theft through a computer glitch, data input error, hacked database, or just a stray alpha particle? How do I you prove I’m me? :)

a national ID card, NO! A national Voter ID card, yes. Most Americans don’t want to be tracked with every transaction they make on a daily basis

David, you’re tracked every time you use your ATM card, credit card, or even write a check. Just pay cash for the pr0n. ;)

Seriously, I don’t see where a national ID card would be different from a driver’s license. Theoretically, I could be asked for my license at the state borders and random PoliceState checkpoints, but that doesn’t happen. I have no reason to believe that would happen with a national ID card either.

BradM, that first post is excellent. That’s pretty much how I feel. If a voter ID card is deemed necessary (I’m still not convinced), why not just go for the national ID card.

AP wrote: What happens if I’m a victim of ID theft through a computer glitch, data input error, hacked database, or just a stray alpha particle? How do I you prove I’m me? :)

Your biometrics are easy to supply and can’t be lost (like an ID card can be lost or stolen).
Therefore, that’s 1 point for biometrics.

Identity theft is easier without biometrics, because the thief must replace your biometric data with theirs, which has a big downside: they leave massive evidence of their
own biometrics at the crime scene.
Also, they may need to disable their own data
first, otherwise, the computer may still find a
biometrics match on the old record.
So, that’s 2 points for biometrics.

When the theif shops or go to your bank, and
their biometrics are checked, it must match
their biometric data to your stolen IDentity data (not the thiefs original data (if it ever existed). If the thief had their own identity
at one time, they’ll have to forfeit it while
they’re posing as someone else.

That’s a lot of changes to make in the computer.
It would be much more difficult than nearly
reprogramming an ID card or credit card.
That’s 3 points for biometrics.

The thief can’t really change their own biopmetrics or your biometrics.
Thus, each person’s own IDentity is truly unique,
unlike an ID card or credit card that can be modified.
That’s 4 points for biometrics.

Therefore, someone else’s biometric data is not
very useful to anyone else, unless they can get
it into the computer systems and accurately associated with someone else, and remove their
own identity too.

Computer glitches are already a problem.
Secondary/backup systems and replicated databases
can resolve that problem.

If you still want an IDentity card, that’s fine.
But, for critical circumstances, biometrics
would be the most reliable method of identification.

It would also make it difficult for criminals and
illegal aliens to move about undetected, if
IDentity is required to get on a bus, airplane,
subway, into buildings, public buildings, etc.
It would have a minimal impact on law abiders,
and it would land a severe blow to criminals and
illegal aliens.
That’s 5 points for biometrics.

That way it is now, someone that looks like me, and
simply stole or found my lost driver’s license,
could walk into my bank, and withdraw funds from
my bank account(s).
Or, someone could steal or find my lost credit card,
and go on a spending spree, because most merchants
don’t ask for identification anyway.
IDentify theft is very easy now.
But, if biometrics (e.g. Iris, fingerprint,
and handprint) had to match data in a database,
it would be much harder to fool the bank. AND, the thief just left his own
biometric data with the bank.

Nothing is perfect, but nit picking good ideas
also keeps the worst systems in place.