Democrats & Liberals Archives

Democrats Securing the Borders

Democratic governors on the Mexican border declared a state of emergency to stem the tide of illegal immigration, while Republicans dither and waffle, struggling to come up with a solution that pleases both their anti-immigrant constituents and their big business campaign funders who want the cheap labor. “They’re trying to split the baby,” says Senator John McCain, “and I don’t think they can do that.”

At the state level, Democratic governors Janet Napolitano of Arizona and Bill Richardson of New Mexico have declared immigration emergencies, boosting state funds and resources for border control. In announcing the state of emergency, Governor Richardson criticized the "total inaction and lack of resources from the federal government and Congress."

In my home state of California, Republican Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and his GOP allies in the state legislature are playing things a little differently. Democrat's calls for a state of emergency on the border have been met with indifference by the Republican Governor, "the current situation in California does not rise to this level."

California Assembly Speaker Fabian Nunez (who recently met with Mexican President Vincente Fox about immigration solutions) called for the governor to declare an emergency last week, but Schwarzenegger contends that, even if he thought it was necessary, he doesn't have the authority to call a state of emergency.

GOP legislators are drafting a bill that would give Schwarzenegger sweeping emergency powers, but Nunez and Democratic legislators say Schwarzenegger already has the power to call a state of emergency, and the border situation falls "within the parameters of the term emergency." It's anyone's guess why Schwarzenegger is stonewalling on this issue.

The one thing everyone at the state level agrees upon is that President Bush and the Republican-dominated Congress have failed to step up with a coherent, effective plan to address border control.

Bush and his advisers are caught between their supporters in the business sector, who believe the economy needs those workers, and conservatives whose priority is to clamp down on illegal immigration. The White House hopes to have a detailed proposal to Congress in late September or early October.

It'll be interesting to see what "splitting the baby" looks like to Republicans. In the mean time, Democrats in the border states will fight this battle however they can with what they have.

Posted by American Pundit at August 29, 2005 9:53 AM
Comments
Comment #76006

Kudos for the Democrats on this issue. i wonder if the size of the border has anything to do with California’s hesitation?

Posted by: jo at August 29, 2005 10:14 AM
Comment #76014

This seems to bring up 2 main issues:
- One of my employees has lived in Ecuador for the past 3 years and wants to move back up here. He has dual citizenship… but he also got married, and his wife needs a Visa to enter the US. It seems that this should not be that big of an issue - with current employment ‘in the US’. It’s been 16 months and it’s still up in the air as to when (or if) he will be able to move back up here.

- I know it’s difficult for people with good reasons to legally get into the US, but it seems fairly simple for people with ill-intentions to illegally get here. Homeland Security? Hmmmm

Posted by: tony at August 29, 2005 10:27 AM
Comment #76018

Securing the borders irrespective of who does it is one (or should be one) of the highest priorities on the American agenda.

Hats off to the Democratic Governors for recognizing this challenge. If a viable plan were developed, it is difficult to imagine not getting federal funds to compliment the state funds being allocated.

In my opinion, illegal immigrants need to be kept out but, part of the overall plan should include locating and deporting those that are already here.

I do not know enough about one of the suggestions made some time back about “temporary” work permits (or something like that) to discuss it intelligently but, on the surface it sounds like it is worth exploring.

Posted by: steve smith at August 29, 2005 10:40 AM
Comment #76020

The fact is that our immigration policy is severly flawed and needs a major overhaul. Rather than making it difficult for someone to become a citizen, we ought to be making it easier. Then legislation reqgarding citizenship and Driver Licenses, permits. college enrollment, taxes, etc… would make sense. It seems very stupid to mean to have such laws on the books and then make it next to impossible for people to become citizens.

Let us expand the gene pool. It sure couldn;t hurt seeing how inbread certain part of the country are becoming.

Razer

Posted by: Razer Mackham at August 29, 2005 10:49 AM
Comment #76029

Making it easier for someone to become a citizen?

Illegal immigrants live here, work here, get an education, get free medical care, earn money, don’t pay taxes and, with the exception of voting which they don’t really care about, are treated as citizens anyway.

What is the up side for them of becoming a citizen.

Posted by: steve smith at August 29, 2005 11:17 AM
Comment #76033

I find it appalling that the Bush administration hasn’t addressed this issue at all in the last four - almost five years.

Eventually, the Republican-dominated Congress will pass a law giving visas to hundreds of thousands of illegal workers - and I think that’s great - but there’s still no talk about how to effectively keep new illegals out.

The border states (the ones run by Democrats, anyhow) are trying to stem the tide, but without an effective, comprehensive border control plan, these ad-hoc state programs will remain uncoordinated, underfunded, and undermanned.

Posted by: American Pundit at August 29, 2005 11:26 AM
Comment #76041

—-
Illegal immigrants live here, work here, get an education, get free medical care, earn money, don’t pay taxes and, with the exception of voting which they don’t really care about, are treated as citizens anyway.

What is the up side for them of becoming a citizen.
—-
How many illegal immigrants to you know? I know a few, and life is not as rosy as you think. Most of these people have little or no legal protection, decent housing is all but impossible - and the people who provide these services know the status of illegal immigrants and really take advantage of them. They live in retched housing, are charged outrageous fees on simple services because they few options.

I find your remarks flippant and ill-informed…

Posted by: tony at August 29, 2005 11:38 AM
Comment #76043

AP,

Border control is a massive undertaking even with full funding and concentrated bi-partisan support.

Sadly, until we catch on, the bad guys are smarter than the good guys in terms of smuggling, illegal entry, etc.

Posted by: steve smith at August 29, 2005 11:41 AM
Comment #76045

Congrats to the Dems, however….

In all the prior years, it was never a priority for them either, and the problem is not so much worse now, it is just more sensitive now!

I will however be proud of them if they “run” on this issue, and not become PC during election time to secure their votes! That is really the telling time of how one stands on an issue!

Stay the coarse Dems, stay the coarse..

Posted by: Traci at August 29, 2005 11:48 AM
Comment #76059

tony,

I am sorry you find my remarks flippant and ill-informed.

I live in tobacco country. I happen to personally know a half dozen illegal immigrants (from Mexico). Also I know several tobacco growers who utilize these illegal aliens.

They are required to pay them over $6.50 an hour. I have seen the housing that is provided for them and while it is not something that I personally would want to live in for any period of time, the cabins are sufficient. There is indoor plumbing, running water, stove and fridge.

Yes they work long days, it’s the nature of the product being farmed. They have most weekends off and, the grower/farmer has to give them transportation to town at least once a week for groceries. They also have medical care available although I am told that they prefer self-healing.

So, as you can see, I am quite informed and was not at all flippant in my previous post.

I realize that you would like to but I will not be goaded into character references or information/intelligence responses.

Posted by: steve smith at August 29, 2005 12:29 PM
Comment #76067

I think it’s simple why the Republicans are avoiding this border issue.They want the hispanic vote with America having such a large hispanic population they want to give them citizenship in hopes of getting their vote in trade for it.I remember during the election a republican icon that made that statment not so openly but thats the idea they have.They know with Bush’s dirty little war and his oil cronies raping our economy it’s the only chance they have of winning anything 2006 or 2008.We need to stop letting our officals do whatever they want its up to us to make them accountable.

Posted by: randy at August 29, 2005 12:54 PM
Comment #76069

See the real picture. These Governors are showing rank hypocrisy plain and simple.

Why are these states issuing Drivers Licenses to illegals?

Why are these states offering in state tuition to their University systems?

Why are these states not being aggressive in prosecuting illegals?

Why are these states not being aggressive in going after businesses that hire illegals?

Do not get me wrong, our immagration policy is a joke, and the Bush administration has done a HORRID job on controlling the flow of illegals.

But these Governors have produced environments that attract illegals, in short they have contributed to the problem. To now declare a state of emergency is a joke. They are trying to claim high road status on an envirnoment they assisted in fostering!

We may agree on one issue here, something needs to be done. But political manuevering while not accepting responsibility for one’s own hand in all this is silly.

Why don’t we try something new? How about we work together on this problem? Perish the thought when there are politics to be played.

Posted by: RealDebate at August 29, 2005 1:07 PM
Comment #76071

AP,
Your article and many others assumes it is obvious that illegal immigration is an emergency.

At the risk of asking a simplistic question -

Why? Are we going to be over-run by terrorists crossing the desert from Mexico? If your Gov and prez dont think it is an emergency then surely some of us political laymen might need an explanation to.

Posted by: Ms Schwamp at August 29, 2005 1:12 PM
Comment #76074

RealDebate:

I guess that begs the question of how much of the immigration issue is a federal one and how much is a state one. I’d agree that the states don’t seem to be doing much to prevent the problem—and in fact, might actually be fostering an environment where illegal immigration flourishes.

I’d also agree that the feds are not doing what should be done either. I’d suppose a lot of it comes down to manpower.

I’d suggest going after both the immigrant AND the employers, with especially harsh sentences for trafficers.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at August 29, 2005 1:30 PM
Comment #76086

—-
I realize that you would like to but I will not be goaded into character references or information/intelligence responses.
—-
… not my intention at all, however I find your experience with migrant workers to be much better than most. I live in Raleigh, NC - we have the fastest growing Hispanic population in the country. I’ve seen situations similar to what you are describing, but they are few and far between.

The reason I call your remarks flippant is that you say the only downside to these people’s lives if that they can not vote and “with the exception of voting which they don’t really care about, are treated as citizens anyway.”

Do you know how much these illegal immigrants pay to cash a payroll check? (15% - 35%… Sometimes more…) Do you know how much they are charged to send money home? It’s about the same… so you can easily see their $6.50 per hour (many do not make this much) being cut in half from the start.

These people are also wide open to abuse and crime - everyone near them know that they will not bring the authorities into situations for fear of being deported… so, robbery, violence, rape, extortion are all pretty much just a part of their life.

I know there are quite a few non-profit and community-based programs to help these people, but they are often closed off from the outside world… The single biggest obstacle these groups face is initial contact with potential clients.

I’m not sure I’ve seen either political side present good solutions to this dilemma, but please keep in mind that these people’s lives are no where near as easy as you make them out to be.

Posted by: tony at August 29, 2005 2:23 PM
Comment #76087

Everyone knows the mantra of the USA; It’s the worlds “melting pot.”

“Bring me all of your tired masses…” Remember that?

Steve Smith is very much on point with his example of how some illegals live and thrive in this country. Do they all live even adequately? No, they do not. But each and every one of them that is here do indeed take resources from American citizens and that is a fact!

Now we could get into who deserves what and who might not be making the best of their opportunities, but the reality is that we need to push pause and develope a plan that includes some accountability. Illegals have the potential to be outstanding American citizen’s, but they need to enter this country legally, be put into the system, and learn what they need to learn in order to function, contribute, and thrive. Once someone has done that they deserve every opportunity and blessing this country has to offer.

And this is not a new concept: Litterally millions have done just that since this country’s inception. It’s just that back then this wasn’t something that could so easily be used for political leverage.

Close the border TEMPORARILY, implement policies and programs that you actually have reason to believe will work, tweak where needed, reopen the border, and let’s move on to the next damn thing!

Posted by: cnw at August 29, 2005 2:23 PM
Comment #76091

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

WE NEED THE ILLEGALS!!!!!!!

WHO ELSE WILL DO THE JOBS EVEN BLACKS WON’T DO????

BRING THEM BAAAACK!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Aldous at August 29, 2005 2:43 PM
Comment #76107

Tony~

Not to intrude but I know a lot of American citizens that are living at the standards you’ve described of illegal immigrants. Not to be “snarky” but what is your point? Besides I’ve known quite a few legalized citizens that have stated that it really was not that hard of a task….it did take patience, but if they can’t be patient…..that seems to be their problem! Oh yeah, there is that tricky little thing of a background check also….we really don’t need anyone elses criminals, do we?

Posted by: Traci at August 29, 2005 3:42 PM
Comment #76108

tony and cnw,

You both make excellent points in your post. We have pretty much described the “extremes” in the plight of the illegal immigrant in terms of living/working conditions.

I suspect that the “average” illegal immigrant endures conditions closer to the extreme that tony describes so, at the end of the day, conditions are unacceptable overall.

Improvement is indeed needed. Illegal aliens that were once “seasonal visitors” have become “year round” residents.

Posted by: steve smith at August 29, 2005 3:48 PM
Comment #76124

steve smith,

“I suspect that the “average” illegal immigrant endures conditions closer to the extreme that tony describes so, at the end of the day, conditions are unacceptable overall.”

Here in Arizona, illegals share homes and apartments with multiple families to save money. They do not only farm labor, but are also hired in places as diverse as McDonalds and the Phoenician resort.
Oh, and WalMart.

Posted by: Rocky at August 29, 2005 4:25 PM
Comment #76128

Rocky,

Do local, state or federal authorities ever make “raids” (for want of a better word) and arrest them for purposes of deportation or, is it a “look the other way” type of situation?

Posted by: steve smith at August 29, 2005 4:32 PM
Comment #76135

I guess the real questions is: what the heck do we do about it all? I don’t know.

I do know that several people I have worked with who are (I am assuming this with some) illegal immigrants, and they are amazingly hard workers. So, I can see benefit from having them here and I think helping them become legal would be a very good thing. Also, I’ve not met too many people (non-immigrant) who would do their work with such enthusiasm.

And - it’s the American way to make homes for these people.

Posted by: tony at August 29, 2005 4:43 PM
Comment #76145

steve smith,

Yes raids are done periodicly on businesses. The businesses are rarely prosecuted and at that usually only pay a fine.
Most illegals in this area are found through other illegal activity in the neighborhoods they live in.

tony,

“I do know that several people I have worked with who are (I am assuming this with some) illegal immigrants, and they are amazingly hard workers.”

We’re talking about millions of people, and yes some of these folks are amazingly hard workers.

But……., they are also a huge drain on already strained resources, and when they are paid on a cash basis they contribute nothing to the society they are taking from.
Previously overcrowded schools, and hospitals (county of course) and jails are now beyond full.
Gangs are also a problem.

What these folks endure here is nothing to the squalor that they left. I don’t begrudge a man the ability to support his family, just let him do it the legal way.

Posted by: Rocky at August 29, 2005 5:00 PM
Comment #76158

Rocky:

I don’t begrudge a man the ability to support his family, just let him do it the legal way.

That is hitting it on the head.

What is the aversion to doing it legally? Is it time? Is it the background checks? Is the process too cumbersome? Is it somehow too expensive?

I am not well versed on procuring citizenship. Someone help me out.

Posted by: Chi Chi at August 29, 2005 5:57 PM
Comment #76160

If they are legal, they wouldn’t get hired in the first place. If they are legal, don’t speak english, what employer is going to pay them minimum wage plus benefits when they can hire an illegal under minimum wage with no benefits who also doesn’t speak English.

It is their willingness to work for under min. wage, that insures them a job in the first place.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 29, 2005 6:03 PM
Comment #76169

I have 2 personal experiences with this, in the last month or so…

1 - My and my business partner just purchased a 2 story house near NC State University… rehab’ing it into a duplex for students. Everyday we had people (some homeless, some neighborhood odd-job’ers and some illegal) coming by wanting work for $8 per hour, cash. Do hire out this work, it would be at least $25 per hour. I am scum, I suck, I hired the $8 per hour crowd.

2 - A friend and employee lives in Ecuador. He’s been down there for 3 years +, but still works full time for me. He is married now, and he has been trying for 16 months to get a visa for his wife to move back up here. We gave him $500 Christmas bonus, which he spent bribing an official to get a meeting with someone at the American Embassy to help move things along. It now looks like possibly late Nov. or Dec. of this year… who knows.

Posted by: tony at August 29, 2005 6:52 PM
Comment #76176

“How many illegal immigrants to you know? I know a few, and life is not as rosy as you think. Most of these people have little or no legal protection, decent housing is all but impossible - and the people who provide these services know the status of illegal immigrants and really take advantage of them. They live in retched housing, are charged outrageous fees on simple services because they few options.

I find your remarks flippant and ill-informed…

Posted by: tony at August 29, 2005 11:38 AM “


It’s hell living an underground life huh?…Seems to me they have a choice, They can go home and try comming here LEGALLY. I have little or no pity to spare for them.

Posted by: tomd at August 29, 2005 7:36 PM
Comment #76181

tomd -
—-
It’s hell living an underground life huh?…Seems to me they have a choice, They can go home and try comming here LEGALLY. I have little or no pity to spare for them.
—-
Wow - I feel so warm and fuzzy now. Thanks for letting me know humanity is alive and well the good ‘ole U S of A.

Maybe, one of these you might try exploring or attempting to understand an issue before immediately jumping to such strong opinions. (Ok, if you’re a grumpy old man, then I’ll give you some slack… but try to remember these are people with families… humans in extremely crappy conditions.) Believe it or not, in many South American countries - if you have no money, there is no way you can get here legally. If your family is starving, then you’d probably try just about anything to help.

Are you going meet these people with help or loaded weapons?

Posted by: tony at August 29, 2005 7:55 PM
Comment #76185

AP, look for a bill that goes something like this: locks out illegals with a rider that lowers the total wage compensation for American workers, perhaps eliminating employer contributions to SS or their need to offer health care of anykind.

You know, something the Democrats will have to filibuster, making the lack of immigration control the Democrat’s fault. That is how you both play the game isn’t it?

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 29, 2005 8:13 PM
Comment #76188

tony, give it a break. Do we provide assistance to murderer’s families, how about dependents of those busted for pot or crack?

Immigration control means no illegals, period! In turn that means the legals will be entitled to full wages and compensation packages, and all Americans benefit from the increased tax revenues, and consumption boosts for the economy. There are just too many positive benefits for Americans insisting that the porosity of our borders be cemented over, permitting only legal immigrants. Need I say that such a policy also will do more for American security against terrorists than 5 Iraqi invasions.

Let them come legally, or not at all. If I, born in America am caught breaking the laws, stealing food, forging a check, posessing pot, my freedoms to decide what happens to my family are taken away. Why on earth would any intelligent person expect our government to give preferential treatment to illegal aliens it won’t extend to its own citizens. That’s NUTS! Brazilian, pastaccio, take your pick.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 29, 2005 8:21 PM
Comment #76192

—-
tony, give it a break. Do we provide assistance to murderer’s families, how about dependents of those busted for pot or crack?
—-
If I, born in America am caught breaking the laws, stealing food, forging a check, posessing pot, my freedoms to decide what happens to my family are taken away. Why on earth would any intelligent person expect our government to give preferential treatment to illegal aliens it won’t extend to its own citizens. That’s NUTS! Brazilian, pastaccio, take your pick.
—-

Wow - I think I see some thoughts hiding behind your statements? Do you actually feel that illegal immigrants are in any way, shape or form similar to crack dealers or murderers? These are destitute people with no other options. I’m pretty sure my ancestors would not have been able to come to American had there been any immigration laws back then. Now that we’re here - you think it should be a member’s only club?

Posted by: tony at August 29, 2005 8:27 PM
Comment #76193

This is a response to Chi Chi’s question about citizenship:

Although America one of the most friendly immigrant countries in the west, it is still pretty tough for a foreigner to legally work here. There are 3 main ways that I know of for foreigners to legally work here.

First is to have a relative who is already a citizen, file legal papers for you to get a work permit. This relative is usually the next of kin so, Parents, children and spouses are fine, anymore distant than that is a likely no. There’re finer details to this but I’m not well versed in all that. Second is to have a business/company file for a working visa for you (H1B visa I think). There are a set number of H1B visas that are issued annually (something like 100,000). Third is to win the green card lottery (I think a couple hundred thousand are issued each year cf. several million applicants). All these don’t automatically equal citizenship - that occurs a couple of years after the greencard is issued.

I don’t think that a lot of people appreciate just how hard it is for a foreigner to work legally in this country. For a company to go through the trouble and expense of applying for an H1B visa for a foreigner, they need to be exceptionally talented at professions that US citizens don’t want - science and technology anyone? Look at your universities, who are in the advanced science classes? Read any scientific papers lately? Notice the names of the authors from American universities?

If you guys know any foreigners (the ones that are legally here), talk to them or first generation Americans. They’ll explain it all better. That’s where I got my info.

Hope that helped.

Posted by: JennyW at August 29, 2005 8:31 PM
Comment #76198

Further clarification:

I should probably have said high-demand jobs that are not so popular with the average american.
instead of “jobs american citizens don’t want”.

Posted by: JennyW at August 29, 2005 8:46 PM
Comment #76216

tony,

“Do you know how much these illegal immigrants pay to cash a payroll check? (15% - 35%… Sometimes more…) Do you know how much they are charged to send money home? It’s about the same… so you can easily see their $6.50 per hour (many do not make this much) being cut in half from the start.”

It seems businesses in SC are taking advantage of your illegal immigrant problem. That is not true for all places in the US. It’s not like that here in Wisconsin, nor was it in Minnesota a few years ago.

In my experience, the thing about illegal immigrants, is that far too many don’t have any respect for the law and participate in many other criminal activities. This is not to say all of them act that way. I do know a few who don’t. I’ve known far more who did, though.

Posted by: Stephanie at August 29, 2005 10:05 PM
Comment #76251

tony, you see nothing behind my statements. My statements say exactly what they mean. We need to close illegal immigration, and those that must come here for whatever reason, does so legally. There is nothing in what I said that implies we should not continue to permit immigration of the poor, the persecuted, and those with needed abilities who wish to become citizens.

Try answering my questions instead of reading what you thing you want to see between the words. My words were written for the intent expressly stated. I am all for immigration. Legal immigration. If I smoked ran a yellow light, was pulled over and found to have marijuana in my posession, I would do time, my family be damned. And yes, I do think entering another country illegally is a crime. If it isn’t what purpose is there in immigration laws or passports at all.

Our constitution clearly differentiates between American citizens and non-citizens and for a host of damned good reasons. We have millions of illegals in this country, who without any malicious intent whatsoever, expand and exacerbate the underground black markets, the human smugglers, the drug and weapons smugglers, and who subvert our system of revenues for supporting the cost of running this nation, and whose very presence stands as a symbol of contempt against our laws, and our Constitution which requires that our officials protect and defend the Constitution and the laws that emanate from it.

America has always been, and should always be a compassionate nation that takes refugees and imigrants from other nations. We have laws to accomodate that. We should enforce those laws or invite everyone to disregard any laws that don’t suit their fancy.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 30, 2005 1:51 AM
Comment #76266

Tony:

By engaging in hiring illegal labor in order to save yourself some money, did you help the problem or contribute to the problem?

I suppose you could say that you helped the people by giving them some money, but that would be short term thinking since it only defers the problem. There is no solution in it.

I lived in a third world country. We were considered wealthy and in comparison, we were. (It was well known in the community that we had toilets that FLUSHED, which was quite an extravagance!) Periodically, we would be besieged by beggars, either at our home or out on the streets. The question of how to deal with this level of poverty was real for us.

On one hand, you give money to them, since you can afford it. The problem is that you cannot differentiate between the truly poor and the “acting” poor—the scam artists. Secondly, you DONT have enough money to give handouts to everyone, or to give the handouts to the same people just a few days later when the money has once again run out. So no solution to the problem—only a delay.

We offered food to the hungry. Sometimes they refused it by saying they needed money. We lumped these into the scam artist group—if they were truly starving, wouldnt they have eaten the same food we were eating?

We hired people to do menial labor that we could have done ourselves. While to some that simply made us look rich and lazy (we had gardeners, cooks, nannies, drivers etc), the goal was to help lift at least a few out of the poverty they were living in.

With illegal aliens, we need to find solutions that solve the problems, not simply delay them. AS David said, why have immigration laws if they are simply waved off at the first opportunity.

The economic issues (businesses needing the cheaper labor) are real, and so need to be dealt with. Tax laws can be adjusted etc in order to deal with these, but we cannot simply put the entire burden immediately on the employers. That would hurt business and ultimately hurt everyone, including those who would have fewer companies at which to find work.

Lets look for solutions rather than simply trying to win an argument.

Again—do you think you helped the situation, or did you just contribute to it?

Posted by: joebagodonuts at August 30, 2005 8:08 AM
Comment #76268

The Democrats and Republicans together have allowed and continue to allow this problem to exist, because no politician will tackle tough issues for fear of risking re-election. Also, tougher border security in New Mexico won’t solve anything without tougher border security in Texas, Arizona, and California also.

george bush promised tougher border security, and pretended that national security was important, but he then betrayed our borders by promoting amnesty to illegal trespassers, refuses to protect our borders, refuses to prosecute those that employ illegal aliens, and even has the gall to call the Minute Men vigilantes.
Why? Because he wants cheap labor and to increase the population with younger people, in the hope that we can immigrate, print more money, tax, and spend our way out of our looming economic meltdown. That’s why politicians won’t prosecute those that illegally employee illegal aliens, despite the increase in crime, disease, and burden on schools, health care, and law enforcement systems.

To blame one party or the other will only distract people from the issue and the fact that both parties are guilty of ignoring our borders for motives rooted in greed and desperation.

www.theamericanresistance.com/ref/illegal_alien_numbers.html
www.infowars.com/articles/us/la_in_mexico_bill_board_clear_channel.htm
www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17606

Posted by: d.a.n at August 30, 2005 8:54 AM
Comment #76275

—-
Again—do you think you helped the situation, or did you just contribute to it?
—-
Well… I could have hired through a contractor to have the work done - $25 per hour, and they would’ve hired a very similar person to who I hired. Don’t get anything for the additional $17 per hour the contractor would pocket.

As far as people acting poor or scamming… I basically enjoyed the experience of seeing people actually work hard for their pay, rather than the many I see begging for money of the street corners. (This is more aimed at the homeless people who came by our job site… The illegal immigrants all sort of hang out at a local city park to wait for opportunities. I don’t usually see them begging for money.)

David and Stephanie:

I can’t help but feel a sense that these illegal immigrants are largely made up of criminals – from your perspectives. (Of course, I could be completely wrong about this, but both of your posts move almost immediately from people being here illegally into discussions of violent crimes.) Yes - if they are here illegally, then they have broken the law. However, the mention of gangs, murderers, crack pots, etc. seems to imply that they are more than just here illegally. I would agree that they are more exposed to crime than others, but I have also seen that they are less likely to get involved in criminal activities. Digging ditched or laying roof has an amazing dampening effect on one’s desire to go out and get into trouble after work. They also know what they face if they do get caught.

Posted by: tony at August 30, 2005 10:04 AM
Comment #76282

tony,

“I can’t help but feel a sense that these illegal immigrants are largely made up of criminals – from your perspectives. (Of course, I could be completely wrong about this, but both of your posts move almost immediately from people being here illegally into discussions of violent crimes.)”

Let’s think about this for a minute.

You do realize that the very act of entering this country with out the proper documents automaticly makes these folks criminals?
The area that these folks live in is rife with crime. Whether or not they are criminals before they come here isn’t the point.
With out the laws we live by we would have anarchy. If we open the borders where would we be?

I worked in the seventies with a gentleman that immigrated from VietNam. There, during the war he was an officer in the Air Force, a pilot. At the time I met him he was washing dishes in a resturant I worked at. Within 2 years he owned his own resturant. The chances for advancement are there for those that wish to make it.

They just have to make it legally.

Posted by: Rocky at August 30, 2005 10:38 AM
Comment #76285

We live in a country that is founded on the principles of equality and freedom for it’s citizens. Laws and a judicial process are in place to protect those liberties. For people immigrating to our country and wish to stay, there is provision to become a citizen.

We, through nobody’s fault but our own have allowed the immigration regulations to get away from us and now have by some counts 13 million illegal immigrants living and working among us.

In my opinion, we need to restore our original immigration, visitation and citizenship requirements and policies. I think a good starting point is to close the borders to newcomers and begin the process of locating and deporting those who are here illegally.

The cost of not doing this pales in comparison to doing it.

Posted by: steve smith at August 30, 2005 10:54 AM
Comment #76290
I think a good starting point is to close the borders to newcomers and begin the process of locating and deporting those who are here illegally.

Gee, ya think?

Democratic governors declared a state of emergency and beefed up their border patrols, but their ad-hoc efforts aren’t going to be enough. President Bush - whose sworn duty includes protecting our borders - needs to get off his sorry butt and get the federal government behind these efforts.

Posted by: American Pundit at August 30, 2005 11:40 AM
Comment #76295

—-
You do realize that the very act of entering this country with out the proper documents automatically makes these folks criminals?
—-
Yes - I also pointed that out. The point I was making was in reference to the post:

“Do we provide assistance to murderer’s families, how about dependents of those busted for pot or crack?”

… just seems to be a bit much to go from illegally getting into the US to murder & crack.

I realize something has to be done to keep people (for everyone’s safety and benefit) from getting into the country illegally. The problem is - is we maintain the current mode of obtaining legal entrance to the US, then only those who have family connections or money will be able to come here. On it’s face, that’s just sounds completely un-American.

Ricardo - who works for me, and has been full time employed with me for 7 years, wants to move back into the States from Ecuador. He has dual citizenship - but his new wife needs a Visa to enter. He spent his $500 Christmas bonus bribing an official to move the Visa process forward. In a country where the average citizen make $85 per month… not too many people will ever stand a chance of getting a Visa. Also, he has been attempting to get her a Visa for roughly 16 months.

Also - what do we do about those people fleeing their countries due to violence and religious/political prosecution? Obviously, these people would not stand a chance trying to work through the legal system.

Posted by: tony at August 30, 2005 12:04 PM
Comment #76301

“Democratic governors declared a state of emergency and beefed up their border patrols, but their ad-hoc efforts aren’t going to be enough. President Bush - whose sworn duty includes protecting our borders - needs to get off his sorry butt and get the federal government behind these efforts.”

I agree that now that the horses are out of the barn we need to close the door. Few would be naive enough to think that this problem developed overnight. This problem existed conservatively 12-15 years ago and, has continued to escalate. Then there was not the sense of urgency to eradicate the problem.

Some of course would want to add this to the boiling pot of Bush created issues which it is not.

Posted by: steve smith at August 30, 2005 12:27 PM
Comment #76337

tony,

The majority of illegal immigrants I’ve known (and I do mean known personally) did participate in other illegal activities, including selling drugs, rape, theft, forging documents, counterfeiting money, amongst other things (no murder, though). The police pretty much ignored it if it happened in the “barrio,” unless it also involved a non-Hispanic.

How I came to know these people was by repeatedly trying to convince my friend to leave the man she was dating (who was an illegal immigrant) and certainly not to marry him (which she did and divorced him a year later), because he was beating the crap out of her. I didn’t care that he was an illegal immigrant until I saw for myself how they lived and what they did. I was threatened. I was harrassed. For a small community, about 30,000 total, they had a nice little crime ring going on.

I seriously doubt this was the sole instance of this situation in the US. If it was, it would have been squashed. Instead, they thrived, getting new illegals on a regular basis, and preparing them to send them throughout the state with forged documents. I made calls, but nothing was ever done about it, at least not that I know of. I certainly was never called to testify.

I don’t have a problem with legal immigrants. I don’t have a problem with making it easier for legal immigrants to get here. But, illegal immigrants have already broken the law, they’ve committed crimes to even get in the country, they commit more when they get a job. They’re very presence means they do not respect our laws. And, at least in my own experience, they are not afraid to break new ones.

Posted by: Stephanie at August 30, 2005 2:52 PM
Comment #76340

d.a.n.,

Please join me on A New Approach to Foreign Policy to explain the debt thing to Burt. I’m sending him to your site, but can’t explain it very well.

Thanks.

Posted by: Stephanie at August 30, 2005 2:56 PM
Comment #76341

Hi All:

Just passing through and had to comment on these gems:

“Do not get me wrong, our immagration policy is a joke, and the Bush administration has done a HORRID job on controlling the flow of illegals.”
Posted by: RealDebate at August 29, 2005 01:07 PM

What did you expect? Hell, he was too busy WASTING OUR resources trying to secure the borders of Iraq.

“Democratic governors declared a state of emergency and beefed up their border patrols, but their ad-hoc efforts aren’t going to be enough. President Bush - whose sworn duty includes protecting our borders - needs to get off his sorry butt and get the federal government behind these efforts.”….
I agree that now that the horses are out of the barn we need to close the door. Few would be naive enough to think that this problem developed overnight. This problem existed conservatively 12-15 years ago and, has continued to escalate. Then there was not the sense of urgency to eradicate the problem.
..Some of course would want to add this to the boiling pot of Bush created issues which it is not.

Posted by: steve smith at August 30, 2005 12:27 PM

Steve, My old friend I find myself in complete agreement with your statement, only I would say it is the last 20-25 years, Maybe longer, the 80’s were extremely productive years, not for fighting the illegal immigration, but for nourishing/encouraging it.

Well those are just my thoughts.
As Always,
Wayne

Posted by: wayne at August 30, 2005 3:02 PM
Comment #76348

Wayne,

How are you doing?

As you can see, I have learned to use

The bold and the underline. Glad we agree on something. I believe you are correct with the 20-25 years.

Posted by: steve smith at August 30, 2005 3:24 PM
Comment #76352

steve smith,

Back in the 50s and 60s, there was a program called the Brassero(sp) program where Mexican farm workers came north into California to harvest produce. I am a little foggy on this but I think it was discontinued about the time Ceasar Chavez did his thing with the farm workers union.

The working conditions were about what you would expect, but the living conditions in the camps were deplorable.
I grew up in Southern California and I remember when we went to Indio (a town south of Palm Springs) seeing INS agents inspecting morth bound frieght trains for ilegals. I also remember INS inspection stations on I-5 and US 395 north of San Diego.
I don’t remember hearing that illegals were a big deal until the 70s. By that time I had moved to Phoenix, and it was a big deal because hundreds were dying every year trying to cross the deserts coming north.

Posted by: Rocky at August 30, 2005 3:55 PM
Comment #76358

Thanks for the update Rocky. First hand information is great to have.

I agree that 13 million illegal immigrants/aliens are far beyond a tolerable level and that steps need to be taken to stop the flow and, deport as many as possible.

Also, I do have some sympathy for many of them. I know it will require both financial and human resources to undertake this task and that State and Federal funding is necessary. I am hopeful that this will happen regardless of what political party initiates the action.

It’s just an issue that I don’t think we can accuse the Bush administration of creating. We can certainly however highlight or prioritize it as something that needs attention.

Posted by: steve smith at August 30, 2005 4:52 PM
Comment #76361

steve smith,

I can’t say as I can blame Bush for the problem other than we have a huge border and what exactly are we doing to secure it in the wake of Sept. 11th.
I am a little miffed that even after Bush’s meetings with Vincente Fox, nothing has changed.

My understanding of the problem South of the border is that farming conglomerates much like we have here are taking over the farms of Mexico and puting a lot of people out of work. It would appear that Fox thinks that this becomes our problem once the folks cross the border into America.

Posted by: Rocky at August 30, 2005 5:13 PM
Comment #76443
Some of course would want to add this to the boiling pot of Bush created issues which it is not.

Regardless, it’s on his plate now. He needs to step up and help the state governors address it.

And it wouldn’t surprise me if the political embarrassment for President Bush is the reason the Republican governors of Texas and California are stonewalling on the issue.

Posted by: American Pundit at August 30, 2005 11:29 PM
Comment #76453

American Pundit,

I don’t hold him responsible for the past, but what has he done for me lately?

Posted by: Rocky at August 31, 2005 12:03 AM
Comment #76467

Rocky,

He’s given you a lot to debate about, that oughta count for something!

Posted by: Stephanie at August 31, 2005 1:23 AM
Comment #76507

Clinton had 8 years to stop them why is it the Democrats are supposed to be this little “Centurion Super Guard” now???
The Democrats along with Bush should be in jail according to the way the laws are written they are just simply aiding and abeding by keeping the border open and unprotected as well trying to make illegals legal, the penalty is 5yrs. by the way if you guys did not know.
Also if they are getting shmooozed by companys that need the Mexicans to work uder the IRS radar screen that’s taking a bribe that just means more time.
It seems to me the rich Whites who control most of what goes on in this country (approx 90% of the wealth and laws are controlled by the rich white male) are either involved in it or just looking the other way, either way the founding fathers who fought and died for those borders are probably sick as as high hell knowing they wasted their time and lives fighting for nothing but corruption and lazy stupid future generations!!!
Please don’t take it the wrong way I’m just a man just calling a spade a spade and yes the rich White people in the country are responsible because they are craping on the graves of the Great Great Grandfathers of this country by not enforcing the closing of the borders, they may as well go those grave sites and pull their pants down and do it on nationwide TV!!!
If they wish to come here in the correct and legal manner fine no problem.
If not then turn them around give them combat training the way we did those in Iraq tell them to be a real man and stand up to the corruption in their own country (Becuse we sure as hell got enough of it in our own back yard!!!) and fight for the free and Democratic life!) because the free lunch wagon is closed here in the states!
No more shall we stoop to their level and bring down our wages looking the other way allowing underground slavery to go on out in the open in this wounderful place we call the United States all the while putting our fellow Americans out of work so we can get a cheaper Coke!
What was all that hype about buy American for???
Seems like it was just good ol Lazy A** American Hot Air to meee!!!…hehehe!!!
I will end this by saying you don’t know where your going if you don’t know where you’ve been!

Posted by: T. Perkins at August 31, 2005 10:09 AM
Comment #76511

Damned straight, T. Perkins. I hope you put your money where your mouth is,

If you want to protest illegal immigration, protest everything about illegal immigration. When the local diner offers a $5.99 gut-buster breakfast, a price made possible by the Mexican busboy in front and the Mexican cook in back, slap down a $20 and say “No! Enough! I will pay $12 for this breakfast and I insist you pay a decent wage to a legal resident to cook it for me!”
Posted by: American Pundit at August 31, 2005 10:16 AM
Comment #76546

T. Perkins,

“No more shall we stoop to their level and bring down our wages looking the other way allowing underground slavery to go on out in the open in this wounderful place we call the United States all the while putting our fellow Americans out of work so we can get a cheaper Coke!”

The one thing that Mexico has going for it is their Coca Cola is beter than ours.

Posted by: Rocky at August 31, 2005 12:10 PM
Comment #76658

Rocky,

It must be the water.

Posted by: Stephanie at August 31, 2005 4:27 PM
Comment #76729

Stephanie,

“It must be the water”

Good one.

Actually it is the mixture/water ratio. They use more mixture. Just a little sweeter, but a lot more flavor.

Posted by: Rocky at August 31, 2005 8:05 PM
Comment #76734

Rocky,

I drink Dr. Pepper.

Posted by: Stephanie at August 31, 2005 8:19 PM
Comment #76747

Steph,

You’d be hard pressed to find a DP, except maybe in a border town.
When I used to travel, sometimes the only touchtone from home was Coke, or Pepsi, although the best McDonalds hamburger I ever had was in Mexico City. It actually tasted like a burger you made yourself, insted of the styrofoam box. The best Pizza Hut I went to was in Bejing.

Go figure.

Posted by: Rocky at August 31, 2005 8:52 PM
Comment #76755

Rocky,

LOL. I take it your not big on foreign food. If I had the chance to travel like that I would probably be too busy sampling their cuisine to try Pizza Hut or worry about Dr. Pepper.

Posted by: Stephanie at August 31, 2005 9:23 PM
Comment #76764

Stephanie,

When you are in a country for months at a time you tend to seek out anything that wil remind you of home. That and resturants in China are nothing like the Chinese resturants in America, especially when your host is playing “let’s see what we can get the white guy to eat”. My favorite local food was in Indonesia.

Posted by: Rocky at August 31, 2005 9:48 PM
Comment #76768

If you want to protest illegal immigration, protest everything about illegal immigration. When the local diner offers a $5.99 gut-buster breakfast, a price made possible by the Mexican busboy in front and the Mexican cook in back, slap down a $20 and say “No! Enough! I will pay $12 for this breakfast and I insist you pay a decent wage to a legal resident to cook it for me!”
Reply/// I do put my cash where the gold tooth is!!! hehehe I just bought an American Truck for my mother a Chevy SUV only had 22,000 miles on it traded in a ford focus for it.
Now I own a 99 eclipse in that year they used dodge engines in the Japan made bodys so I get the best of both worlds style and performance.
After mines is paid off I will help my brother get the new American Chevy truck he wants and everybody is happy then when all is settled I may get a Corvett to retire in.
Money is no object when it comes to love it is especially no problem when it comes to supporting my fellow American so he don’t hafta turn to crime for a paycheck!
You also mentioned the gut buster I eat out on weekends and when I do if I have the time I go to the high doller places (AKA American Truckstops) as I am a driver so I am doing my part as best I can to keep dollers here in our neighborhoods I hope you are doing the same and was just joking.
(And should the thought enter your mind nooo I don’t hate Mexicans I do hate corruption tho and I eat at the little moble wagons in California and in Laredo when on a hot run or on time off.)
A little extra giving on our part to help our fellow American helps us stay strong both mind body and soul…remember when it’s all said and done we are all we got.
So smile and do something for your fellow American you’ll be glad you did.

Posted by: T. Perkins at August 31, 2005 10:04 PM
Comment #76773

Rocky,

“let’s see what we can get the white guy to eat”

Nice touch!

I guess I can understand why a reminder of home would be appreciated after a few weeks or months. I’ve just never had the opportunity to experience that and unless my fortunes change drastically, I probably never will. Though, perhaps if we could get some better restaurants in some of these countries, there wouldn’t be so much illegal border crossing? Hmmm. No, wait. We’ve tried that.

Seriously though, my dream visits would include, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, India, Scotland, and England (in order of preference) and they all have something in common. While I don’t know, I don’t think Indonesia would belong on this list.

The only reason I would go to S. America is to see the child I send support money to in Mexico. My geography teacher in college scared me way too much to do much of anything else down there.

Basically, my foreign language ability sucks. After nearly four years of Spanish, I still have to say “no rapidemente por favor,” because I don’t know “slow down please.” My husband told me, again, “lentimente por favor.” But rapidemente is still more memorable for me.

Posted by: Stephanie at August 31, 2005 10:16 PM
Comment #76805

Stephanie,

There are TGI Fridays, Hard Rock cafes, and the like in most of the major cities throughout the Orient.
Two worst dishes in China, duck’s feet and sea cucumber. Yuck.

One of the reasons that Coke is important in the third world is that the water has to be treated a certain way or it won’t be authorized by Coca Cola, that means that for the most part it is safe to drink.

Posted by: Rocky at August 31, 2005 11:35 PM
Comment #76822

Rocky,

Well, I’m glad Coca Cola is safe to drink, even in the third world, but it’s not very hydrating and they’d do better for the people trying to provide that treated water to the populace.

Duck’s feet? I like duck, but I don’t think I want to try their feet…or anything else’s for that matter. Sea cucumber can be made into some nice facial products, though.

Though, I remember growing up hearing that all these companies we were sending overseas (restaurants and stores and stuff, not factories) would improve our image internationally. I don’t see any evidence of that, though.

Posted by: Stephanie at September 1, 2005 1:38 AM
Comment #113617

We are a nation which prides itself on ’ the Rule of Law’ - So which part of ‘ILLEGAL’ isn’t understood by this group

Posted by: Bob at January 16, 2006 4:24 PM
Comment #113621

Reports of illegal aliens or suspected illegal immigration activity should be reported to the Department of Homeland Security Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement Hotline; their toll-free number is 1-866-DHS-2ICE (1-866-347-2423).

Posted by: Bob at January 16, 2006 4:28 PM
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