Democrats & Liberals: Archives

All life is precious… except for terrorists, or the military (not worth the expense of proper armor or health benefits…)

Brain dead women, or potential babies or discarded ‘tissue’ that could possibly create human life… now that’s worth protecting at all costs…

but not criminals (especially in Texas…)

Or third world children (10million die each year from poverty/starvation)

Or relatives dying from Alzheimer’s or diabetes…

I’m mean it all makes sense… If not, just try running over your own head with the Volvo a couple of times. Really makes things clear up!

Tony,

He may let 3rd World children starve but he balances that with making sure OIL execs don’t.
Now that’s compassion.
Maybe G.W. can do a “Save the Children” like commercial but for the filthy rich.
Where’s Sally Struthers?

Andre,

I wouldn’t worry about it. Bush threatens to veto stuff all the time, but so far, he’s been all talk.

Traveler,

It’s the logic behind the threat of veto that concerns me.

Tony:

I hope you can see that punishment, which comes in many forms, is acceptable within our society. And the death penalty (but not criminals (especially in Texas…)is a punishment. To lump it in with the other examples you use really isnt correct. And I’m not a proponent of the death penalty, so lets avoid that issue.

I’m sure you also recognize that self defense is an accepted rationale for violence in our country, so taking out terrorists is okay in my book. We can certainly question what definition of terrorist we should use, or whether they are proven guilty etc. You used the word terrorist, which implies that the person is, in fact, a terrorist; ergo, I have no problem taking that person out before they can take others out.

Regarding third world poverty, I dont believe aid is the issue. We and the world give billions in aid, yet the problems are not solved. Something else needs to happen to solve the problem, rather than smooth over the symptoms.

I’ve stated before that adult stem cells have much of the same potential as embryonic stem cells, but without the moral/ethical arguments. Its what is known as compromise….since ASC’s have been proven to work, why not utilize them and invest in them, rather than fighting for the whole enchilada.

Rational people have legitimate concerns about embryonic stem cells. Lets not make the argument about them, though. Lets move forward with a proven technology that will help people.

Bonnie:

Yikes!! First of all, capitals denote yelling, so if you were not intent on yelling, you should change to normal font.

Second, if you were intent on yelling, its not the proper way to bolster support. It simply polarizes people.

Third, while I generally agree with you that abortion is wrong, and that embryos have a life, its important to recognize that many of these embryos are simply being discarded. This creates a moral conundrum that needs to be addressed. Of course, many on the left will fight tooth and nail to prevent any changes to in vitro fertilization but changes need to be implemented there.

The problem occurs when either side becomes so entrenched as to not be able to reach a level of compromise. Almost all issues have a middle ground—-it just takes work to get there.

Bonnie,
We are not saying we want to butcher babies.
If life is so precious why are you not concerned for the thousands being killed in Iraq?
Have you spoken out so LOUDLY against the President being responsible for the illegal attack on another country that has resulted in the deaths of our soldiers and tens of thousands of Iraqis?
Have you held your Bible up to denounce toture?
What about our government ignoring genocide in Africa?
Contrary to the information you received babies are not killed in order to obtain stem-cells.

Aborted fetuses and dead adults have one thing in common.

They are dead.

If Bonnie truly believes that abortion is murder, then so be it. It’s murder. They are dead. Their soul, if they are a human being at that stage, has gone to Heaven and is with our Holy Father.

They have no use whatsoever whith their earthly body.

But we do.

We can save so many more lives with that dead, empty husk we call a body…what we also call an aborted fetus.

This is why I’m an organ donor. And why you should be one too.

There is no “liberal” and “conservative” arguement on this subject, there is only a “right” and a “wrong” side…and that’s why Bush needs to get on the “right” side of this arguement.

Andre,

The last president to anything about genocide in Africa was Bush, Sr.

Big shout out to Bill Clinton for 8 years of ignoring Somolia, Sudan and Rwanda.

Big shout out to “W” for 5 years of “more of the same”.

BONNIE:

Sorry - I missed everything you wrote. Don’t like being yelled at by zealots.

Joe -

I was trying to show extremes to explain - if you want to take an extreme stance on life: all life is precious, ALL life has to be precious. If you feel that there are exceptions, well let’s talk about the exceptions. Bush (and the religious zealots) have taken up the extreme opinion that all life is precious. But they don’t have the conviction to live without exceptions to that law because they still have an over-ridding need to punish and convict. One thing everyone in my previous post has in common is that they all are living humans (or potentially…) To omit one from that standing an protection leaves open the potential to omit any.

To the irrationally zealot - exceptions are a dangerous thing.

Jim T,

You folks can manage to squeeze Clinton bashing into any debate. You’re good.

I’m not debating Dems vs. Reps. I’m just pointing out that if G.W. and his supporters want to bring Jesus into the debate you better not be hypocritical or selective.

Andre,

Hmmmm…let’s see if I’ve bashed Clinton.

1st sentence of my post…patted GHW Bush on the back for trying to help in Somolia.

2nd sentence of my post…BASHED Clinton for ignoring the genocide in Africa.

3rd sentence of my post…BASHED “W” for doing the same thing Clinton did.

Yup, I squeezed Clinton bashing into my post. Guilty as charged.

But…Did you read the 3rd sentence???

One point on this whole religion thing…

If Jesus can back to earth right now, he would NOT be a Christian. Who would Jesus bomb?

Simplistic? Maybe, but from what I’ve seen, Christians has not ability to stay true to their religion. Thou shall not kill. (Are there amendments to the 10 Commandments? Don’t think so.)

The same people who are Pro-life are also pro-Bush and pro-war. They will support killing if they feel the exceptions are worthy, but the 10 Commandments are pretty much straight down the middle on this one. NO, none, nadda, don’t do it.

Bonnie,

You are a brave person. While you have some good points and, I know your intentions are honorable, posts that emphasize/express religious views and Bible references generally are met with responses that you will not be able to support through religion. Up til now, those who have posted after yours have been kind.

Andre and Tony, nicely put.

These Neocon’s (and a great many of their bible thumping followers) seem completely incapable of critical, rational thought.
BTW, do you guys remember Bush’s “Snowflake Baby” — the kid he showcased awhile back as the poster child for why No-Blastocyst-Must-Be-Wasted?
Well, it just so happens that the mother of that child later admitted that she had destroyed two blastocysts before she ended up pregnant with that child! So, by their reasoning, she should actually be considered a murderer, because people can’t kill a life to save a life, right?
Oh but why let the logic or the facts get in the way of such wonderful political expediency? It sounded great, it looked absolutely adorable, and the idiots were sure to buy it hook, line, and sinker.

BONNIE,
Given the attitudes of the religious right, I keep expecting to hear that God’s Will mandates forced impregnation of all women who are of childbearing age.

I would object to the production of Embryos specifically for the sake of such destruction, but when the destruction is the inevitable result of a fertility process, and the parents approve of it, I think the destruction should serve a purpose, instead of being just a waste.

Modern science has proven that development in the womb is a crucial part of the development of that embryo. If it’s never destined for a womb, it’s not destined for life.

Joe, what’s your source on that information about the capacity of Adult Stem Cells?

Bonnie-
It may be self-gratifying to take that approach, but it only makes you look like a troll. It’s not very convincing, and though it makes clear your moral condemnation of the lot of us, it doesn’t make clear why we should share your view.

wow - OK… after my last post, I promise to look closer before posting (my English sux today.)

Adrienne,

Given the attitudes of the lunatic fringe left, I keep expecting to hear that (insert whatever you worship here) mandates forced abortion at least three times of all women who are of childbearing age.

Sarcasm works BOTH ways…

Some people will always be against progress in medicine. In the middle ages operations were illegal since the belief was that if cut open a person’s soul would escape. Now we know that is not so — or do we? Perhaps we should outlaw operations.

Jim T:
“Given the attitudes of the lunatic fringe left, I keep expecting to hear that (insert whatever you worship here) mandates forced abortion at least three times of all women who are of childbearing age.”

No Jim, the majority of people standing on the left believe in personal freedom and upholding the rights given to us by our Constitution.

“Sarcasm works BOTH ways…”

To be sure, but sadly, critical and rational thought doesn’t always.

Stephen:

One source is a simple google search which brings up many articles comparing and contrasting ASC and ESC. The other is an example of how ASC is working, while ESC are in the theoretical stage. ESC therapy has not cured anything, but holds great potential. ASC HAS cured things, and holds great potential.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-12,GGLD:en&q=adult+versus+embryonic+stem+cells

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/07/26/stem.cells.heart.ap/index.html

I’m not claiming to know all, or all that much even, about the science behind all this. I am having conversations with a PHD in biochemistry to try to understand it more completely. Im not there yet. But most of the media talks about stem cells without differentiating between the two. My understanding is that ESC’s can become virtually any type of cell (theoretically so far), but that ASC’s have a limit to what they can become. That seems to be the big difference.

Tony:

The Bible is the greatest book ever produced, and certainly one of the most studied. However, it is also dangerous in that people often take bits and pieces out of context, which leads them to incorrect assumptions. Take for instance “an eye for an eye”. Taken out of context, it suggests that if you hurt me, I can then hurt you equally.

Taken IN context, it means generally that the punishment should fit the crime. Two very different conclusions.

Almost by definition, man will fall short of the ideals of Christianity. According to Christians, only one man has ever lived up to the ideals, and that is Christ. But Christ understood the fallibility of man…and from that perspective knew that no one in HIS time, nor in any time lived up to the ideals. That does not make the ideals wrong—it makes humans human.

Apparently Eric Rudolph’s nome de plume is “BONNIE”. I didn’t know you could post from prison.

Jim T

I realize that this is off-topic, but I just wanted to say something about your comments.
In all fairness, I think the debacle in Somalia kind of left our government in a quandry. Remember that the effort started out with purely humanitarian relief ideals, which quickly degenerated in war with the clans that tried to hold on to their power.
Short of a total military engagement of these groups, as well as the government policies in the other countries which foster genocide and war, there is not much we can do in a direct aid sense.
Clinton did call for debt relief for many African nations, so he didn’t “ignore” the problem. There were also provisions for more aid if they showed results in the area of human rights reform. But I’ll go along with the idea that perhaps more should have been done. But what? Do you really want our troops fighting over there?
Clinton asked the UN to get more involved, as did the first Pres Bush.
It’s easy to criticize the govt for not solving some problems, but I’ll be the first to say that I don’t have a clue as to how to help them.
There is also a significant portion of our population which feels that we should let them “duke it out” amongst themselves, and that we shouldn’t get involved at all. They don’t hold rallies or get on tv, but they’re there. That’s why you don’t see a grassroots movement, trying to force our govt to get involved.

HEY BONNIE….Do I have your attention now?

Good, First off what gives you the right to assume that I even have a Bible in My home or for that matter any religious propaganda whatsoever? I don’t believe that abortion should be used for birth control, ever. However I do believe it has a place in society. I do not believe that we should be able to take the rights of women away from them. Which is what you are advocating by drawing this line in the sand. Put yourself in this situation, You are 16 and pregnant, Mom and Dad did the only Christian thing to do, they threw you out because you shamed them. Cut off from family, you start looking at your future and your baby’s future. Not a pleasant one is shaping up for you or your baby is it? You see a doctor and she tells you that carrying this baby to term, will surely be a disaster for both of you. You have not eaten properly since your parents showed you the door, Hence both you and the baby are malnurished, doomed to a life on the street since health care is both unaffordable, and unattainable, you can’t work because who is going to take care of the baby then. Certainly not you. And the Bible thumpers, and zealots won’t help you because they are only interested in healthy babies. I ask you then is that child better off not being born or not?
Please, I beg of you, While I appreciate your rights to worship any God you want. Please, take your zealotry somewhere else and stop pushing your beliefs down my throat. I appreciate your right to believe in your Lord, Please respect mine to not.

Thank You.

As Always,
Wayne

..and would someone please point out to Bonnie that stem cells are not embryos/fetus’s/children? They are CELLS!

JBOD
Your posts are the most level-headed, reasonable ones I’ve ever seen on this issue. You’re taking both sides into account and discussing them fairly. What the heck is wrong with you? (LOL) Don’t you know you’re supposed to be contentious and single-minded?

This is really a tough issue, because of the polarization of opinions, and its ties to abortion (in people’s minds).
I like the argument that it takes the womb to instill life, etc. (who said that?) But there is that other opinion which says that even male masturbation kills sperm, and that is a sin. So I haven’t a clue what to believe. I’m leaning towards the fact that, since the embryos will be discarded anyway, let them do something good for the living. But I would hate to see “embryo farming” as an industry.

Cole,

You’re right. There’s only so much we can do. Unfortunately, the UN had no plan in place for the genocide in Rwanda…and after the debacle in Somolia, our approach to Africa was “hands off”.

Also, at the time, we were busy focusing our energies (misplaced, IMO) in the Balkans. We were moving the 1st Armored division to Bosnia and trying to keep the Serbs in check.

However, and this is my point, the only threat by the US to Hutu tribespeople (and it was a hollow threat at that) was deploying an airborne unit to Italy and threatening to insert them to stop the bloodshed. But by that time, the killing was mostly over.

Our “hands off” policy came back to haunt us.

Can someone tell me when life starts?

yea Bonnie if its not convenient to have a baby just throw it out - if its not convenient to take care of the elderly - throw em out the window - oh yes those retarded peple and unemployed are a big drain on society lets just gas em all - see its all about convenience Bonnie

Now if you are pregnant and someone stabs you in the uterus and kills the baby - well then you can press charges for murder - makes sense to me

Mike,

oh yes those retarded peple and unemployed are a big drain on society lets just gas em all

Naughty, naughty!

Don’t you know those are “intellectually underenhanced” and “gainfully underemployed” people?

PC police will get you! :-)

—-
Can someone tell me when life starts?
—-

Happy Hour. ???

Bonnie:

You make me proud to be an athiest. Actually, I’m always proud of my beliefs, but I really get satisfaction when some wingnut zealot like you spews a bunch of mumbojahooogyblahblahblah.
Someone left the lid open on my brainwashing cycle.

I think we should stop bashing Bonnie. This issue is very emotional for some people. Sometimes those emotions come out productively and sometimes not.
Besides I like bashing Bush. It’s so much more fun.
Bush sucks!

Andre,

Hahahaha! I like that!

I think you’re right about Bonnie.

Ok, we can stop bashing bonnie. Instead, lets bash Free Republic. I was just over there and OMFG!! These people will say anything to make their case. If they had their way they’d pull out their big Jesus guns and waste all the “damned lib’ruls”

Also, why are the pro-life people supporting Bush when he is forcing abortions in the 24th trimester and on? That’s a late term abortion if I’ve ever heard of one. sick

Stem cells? Use them, that’s what they are, cells. Science can make cures, it’s for the public good, so I don’t mind if it’s federally funded.

How many Bushies does it take to change a light bulb?

Not our fault - the bulb was bad back in Clinton’s era.

or

Who said the light bulb burnt out - it looks absolutely great in here. Just ask the Iraqis.

or

4: 1 to actually change the bulb, 1 to leak it to the press, 2 to support the bulb change on news talks shows.

or

None. I don’t think our country should be in the business of bulb changing. (OK, this is a stretch…)

Cole:

Thanks for the kudos. Its a tough issue, and I agree we shouldnt be embryo farming. Thats what I think people are truly afraid of, and its sort of where things are headed, if not curtailed at all.

Some dont want it curtailed, and have no understanding of why it should be. They feel the end justifies the means, or that it just doesnt matter.

Going to the extreme, can you imagine “farming” a baby because you need the organs, so letting it live until 2 years old, then giving the organs to needy people. Now, it would save lives, but….I think that goes a bit too far. But that is what is at the extreme end of the road we traveling down.

I’ll try to be more contentious in the future, you jerk!!! lol

Mike;

Some say life begins when the baby is viable. Problem is that this time frame changes with technology. The only unchangable time frame for life is at conception, in my opinion, though im open to other thoughts.

Not sure this is the palce to discuss live and abortion.

As far as the extremes… I don’t see the connection to the 2 year old baby. The stem cells are basically petre dish things - never intended to become baby, and as far as I know never capable of becoming a baby.

The cells could be used to help regrow nerve cells or brain cells when transplanted into a person. My understanding of stem cells, and how they differ from the cells we have inside us, stem cells actually grow new ‘people parts’ - mostly nerves, possible allow a bad organ to repairs itself…

Correct?

Tony:

The connection is life itself. You may not see an embryo as life, but many people do. Just as you might see that a 2 year old and a 10 year old are both lives, and as such worthwhile and essential, there are those who see the the same connection between an “embryo” and a “child”.

Stem cells can essentially grow new parts, and embryonic stem cells can grow into most everything, while adult stem cells can grow into limited things. But as I posted earlier, adult stem cell therapy is further along then embryonic stem cell therapy, and should be looked at closely by those wanting to cure disease.

Tony,

You may not be a doctor but you must have stayed in a Holiday Inn last night.
The “people parts” was the best.

I’m just trying to understand how a man who started a war, based on lies, that has killed thousands and having been the governor of the death sentence capital of the U.S., say with a straight face “my perogative is to do what is right.” He pretends to value life and his supporters buy into it.

he values the support of the far right because he is losing mainstream republicans who want to be reelected.

For the people who bash Clinton, you do know that he isn’t president anymore right? Not to mention while I adore Clinton compared to the current administration, I had problems with some of his policies. But to focus on them this late in the game is silly. It over there is nothing we can do about it. However, there are current issues happening that we can have input on. I believe this board is focusing on current issues.

OK - comparing Clinton to this Adminstration - hell, I’d blow Clinton if it would put him back in office. (Well, no… the line’s probably too long.) Has anyone thought of blowing Bush? Might relax the guy. Sheeeesh.

Tony,

Bush bashing light changing jokes! I love it!

How many Bushies does it take to change a light bulb?

4: 1 to actually change the bulb, 1 to leak it to the press, 2 to support the bulb change on news talks shows.

…and 2 liberals to bitch about how dark it is and 2 Democrats to say that the bulb can’t be changed that way…and 2 newpaper reporters to expose the fact that the lightbulb was procured with a “no-compete” bidding system! :-)

None. I don’t think our country should be in the business of bulb changing.

…or…

None. That’s what we have illegal immigrants for!

Hah!

Mary Kay,

I also know that Abraham Lincoln is not president any more, but I’m still pissed about the creation of the IRS!

I would like to restate my position.

Bush Sucks!

I really hope stem-cell legislation passes so Bush looks like the biggest chimp ever when he vetoes.

Jim T…

How many liberals does it take change a light bulb?

I think the light bulb is fine just the way it is, maybe the rest of us need to charge our hostile attitudes against the light bulb’s condition.

or

Well - I think you would need to find 6 other ‘burnt out’ light bulbs and form a support group, 3 people to run the group + 6 people to administer the NEH grant funding.

or

My Uncle’s bulb was burnt out - it’s not a lifestyle or choice, it’s just the way that light bulb was meant to be.

Others?

Ok, light bulb jokes:

Q. How does Bush change a light bulb?

A. He doesn’t. He insists on staying the course.

Were I to pose the question to Andre Hernandez, one might get the following response:

Q. How does Bush change a light bulb?

A: Who cares? Bush sucks!

And with that, let the intelligent thought begin.

By the way, tony, cole and jim….you all made me laugh!

How many Christian-Conservatives does it take to change a light bulb.

None - it is you who have failed to see the light.

JBOD, you are forgetting a little thing called the Constitution. It states people born in America, born elsewhere and naturalized are citizens and their rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is protected. Notice the Constitution does not say anything about a severed hand, flaking dandruff, hair falling out, or embryonic cells, or menstruated zygotes, or sperm or any other of a host of living human tissues which do not constitute a Citizen with protected rights.

Your argument that embryos and two years are not essentially different just doesn’t wash. Cattle are life, and we raise them specifically for killing. Embryos to be discarded have no protected rights as citizens or even as human beings under the Constitution. They are however, under law, the property of the woman from whom they came, and property owners have rights to their property without intervention by the state unless due process is served.

Embryonic stem cells are the source of all tissue. Researchers believe they can be coaxed to grow into heart, brain or nerve cells that could be used to renew ailing organs.
Dolly the sheep, the first mammal cloned from an adult cell nearly a decade ago, died prematurely in 2003 after developing cancer and arthritis.
a fierce ethical and scientific debate
Monkeys are the closest model to humans and they are crucial to medical research, but Hwang told reporters Wednesday that cloning a monkey “is technically impossible at the moment.”
At a news conference in Seoul, the cloning team also condemned the reproductive cloning of humans as “unsafe and inefficient.”
Bush’s statements/consultations -
it has the potential for life, but it is not a life because it cannot develop on its own.
….that cluster of cells is the same way you and I, and all the rest of us, started our lives.
I also believe human life is a sacred gift from our Creator. I worry about a culture that devalues life, and believe as your President I have an important obligation to foster and encourage respect for life in America and throughout the world. WOW
This year, your government will spend $250 million on this important research. 8/9/2001
In 2001, Bush allowed government labs to conduct research with embryonic stem cells, but limited it to 72 existing lines of cells.
Scientists now say most of those lines are useless.
White House spokesman Scott McClellan on Friday reiterated Bush’s opposition to expanding federal research. ”The president has made his position very clear,” McClellan said. “Nothing has changed in terms of his position.”
”I don’t think he wants his first veto to result in spinal cord-injured patients trying to chain their wheel chairs to the White House fence,” said Sean Tipton, spokesman for the Coalition for the Advancement of Medical Research.
ARGUMENTS
”There is a very basic principle that is involved here though, and that is whether or not the young human embryo is a life or a piece of property,” Brownback said.
Stem cells come from eggs fertilized in labs. Cells are removed from 3-8 days old. That destroys the embryo and SNUFFS OUT HUMAN LIFE. States favoring stems cells tend to be blue states. FL, Gov. Bush is big on biotech. In 2003 he persuaded lawmakers to spend $310 million. Currently neither Jeb or George are willing to comment.
I THINK THEY’VE SNUFFED OUT ENOUGH LIVES & BULBS. Annie

Guys,

It was my understanding that most of the ESCs are coming from embryos that had been abandoned, and weren’t going to be implanted anyway.

So what’s the big deal here?

It seems that we either use these ESCs to help defend human life from disease and birth defects, or flush them down the crapper.
Where is the controversy here?
Given that choice I know which side I would be on.

OH, and BTW, I belive the spirit of the sixth commandment is “Thou shalt not murder”. That is a long way from “Thou shalt not kill”

“No Jim, the majority of people standing on the left believe in personal freedom and upholding the rights given to us by our Constitution”
Hahahahahahahah!!!!….. Haven’t had a laugh that good in a while.

Annie -

I might be assuming too much from your post - but I read that you are opposed to Stem Cell research, based on the fact that “THEY’VE SNUFFED OUT ENOUGH LIVES & BULBS.”

So, you feel that even the hint or impossible but academic potential of life overrules the benefit to existing human life. Wow. I feel almost prehistoric just writing that down.

Not sure if you’ve spent time around people with Alzheimer’s or diabetes, but those types of diseases are horrible, slow deaths. I guess we could walk up and shoot them and put them out of their misery, but I’d prefer to find a cure.

AND YELLING LIKE A ZEALOT DOES NOT CONVINCE ANYONE!

Sheesh.

—-
“No Jim, the majority of people standing on the left believe in personal freedom and upholding the rights given to us by our Constitution”
Hahahahahahahah!!!!….. Haven’t had a laugh that good in a while.
—-

Wow… what an amazingly deft argument. Wheeew, need to sit down after that one.

Jim T,

Can you really defend this guy.I know it’s childish on my part but to write Bush Sucks but in honesty, I think G.W. is a terrible President.
His hypocrisy is becoming legendary.

Annie - one more point…

“Unseen on television, however, are the shrunken infants who die all but unnoticed even in so-called normal years. Of each 1,000 children born alive in this, the world’s second-poorest nation, a staggering 262 fail to reach their fifth birthdays.”
NY Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/05/international/africa/05niger.html?hp

I propose we move off the inane academic discussions and focus on what’s real. Any takers?

Andre,

Work is pressing on me at the moment and I don’t have the time to explain fully, but if you’ve noticed what my posts have been doing is to counter argue extremism…to make people stop and think instead of giving me some lame “knee-jerk” reaction. My posts are to “out arrogant” arrogant posters with an opposite point of view in the same tone of the original post.

In other words, I want people to see that there is another side of an arguement…and that the original arguement does not have to be sarcastic, caustic, arrogant, snide and haughty in nature. My posts are to “cool off” the heated and hate filled rhetoric that occurs here all too often.

It is my sincere wish that politics be discussed in a cool, calm, logical and purposeful way.

In other words…I am a moderate. And I strive every day to see BOTH sides of any arguement and then choose the side that appeals most to me.

Gotta go…work’s calling.

David:

Article XIV.

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Where in this statement does the Constitution define what a person is? Where in the Constitution does it indicate that a human baby at 8 months in the womb is considered a person, but that a human baby at 3 weeks in the womb is not considered a person.

That you would so blithely compare a human embryo to dandruff or to cattle says much about the position you come from. If you really see no difference, then I hold pity for your viewpoint.

Your argument holds that a citizen’s rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are protected. But what then of non-citizens or illegal aliens—do we treat them as cattle or dandruff? I’d be interested in your constitutional viewpoint on that, although of course the moral/ethical viewpoint holds more sway when dealing with human life.

A very interesting theory attributes the drop in crime experiencing in the nineties to the legalization of abortion. Homicide rates fell by 40%! It is an amazing idea that almost never gets mentioned in this debate. Yet is seems that the legalization of abortion has improved all of our lives.
The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime

The Constitution states ‘person’ - not potential person, or one that might be a person sometime in the future. A person would need to be a viable human life. Of course that’s where a lot of definition and argument are - but for the use of Stem Cells, I do not see any definition that would grant this ‘material’ status as a person. If so, then anyone caught discarding the ‘material’ or any medical professional that did not do absolutely everything in the power to sustain that ‘person’ would be guilty of a crime.

Jim T,
My response was supposed to go to Joebagadonuts, not you. Sorry.
I do agree with your point of view but sometimes I just like saying Bush Sucks!
It’s quite theraputic.

How about

Buck Fush!

Amazing how many liberals come out of the woodwork to rebut a single post by a “religious zealot”. I don’t think we even got that many army guys out for the interrogation/torture discussions this spring!

Tony, the Bible says not to murder. Murder and killing are not the same thing.

Andre, Bush banned federal funding for embryonic stem cell research. He did NOT ban private funding. What are you getting so worked up about? It’s not the government’s role to get involved in controversial research projects anyway. (I’m sure there will be people yelling at me now about the Manhatten project now, so my prebuttal is that that’s a military issue, and stem cell research has little military value).

Gandhi,

I know the commandment as: Thou shall not kill.
Another of the comandments state: Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
I guess half this administration is guilty of breaking that one…

vague:

I bet someone could do a study on how executing all criminals, regardless of their crime, would reduce crime. It would certainly reduce criminals.

But to those who believe that an abortion kills a person, I doubt your report holds any more solace than would my suggestion above.

The only difference would be the distinction between innocent and non-innocent life. An unborn child is innocent…a convicted criminal is not.

Bonnie and others alike-
I am a 23 yr old who has had a abortion, if I had the opportunity to say that I wanted that fetus to be used towards stem cell research I should be granted my wish. I would at least know that if I can not provide a life for my unborn fetus that I would be providing a new, whole, life for someone else. Why would that be wrong, giving one for another? Abortion is legal and I strongly agree with it. Now I don’t agree with women that feel the need to whore around get knocked up over and over and seek abortion as a alternative. People like that should find some form of strong birth control or pick up some condoms or something. However that is a entirely different subject in some sense, and will go ahead and continue with what I really wanted to say.
Bonnie I noticed how you said or whatever, whoever you got it from that “you are a fool to think a dead baby can heal anything dead, they were made to be a blessing alive and only alive” Obviously that is not true b/c research is saying other wise, it can be used, it can help people alive, people with disease people who are handicapped. It’s not only aborted fetuses, women have miscarriages, there are babies that are stillborn, all of those I would think could still be used for the research. You want to say that dead babies can not help people alive, why is it that their organs can help other babies survive? Same thing right? Why would you want to be against giving someone another opportunity to be whole to have that chance.. I have seen people suffer from Alzheimer’s, do you realize how hard that is for someone. To see someone that they once knew who was so strong, could do anything they wanted and then eventually forgetting who their own children are and have to be taken care of by a hospice why would you deny that person a cure.. That cure was meant to be found if it wasn’t then it wouldn’t even exist or even become possible to research but no it is possible it can help it can cure those who need it. So I say abortion is legal why not turn something negative into something good? Why not use those aborted fetuses to bring wholeness to another human?
Another thing is you want to sit there and preach all you want, saying quotes from the bible which is fine, but what isn’t fine is those who want to preach from the bible but don’t follow the bible 100% that to me is basically being a hypocrite.. Sin is a Sin is a Sin, regardless of what it is, lie to murder in the view of god it is all the same. Let me ask you do you lie, do you drink alcohol, are you jealous, do you get drunk? Why all of these are sins just like murder just b/c our laws here are different as far as the punishments it doesn’t mean that they are like that in the bible. you commit any of those and you will not inherit the kingdom of god. I for one am not a religious person for the simple fact that people are so two sided these days about religion, it’s okay for one to do this but not the other, but hey in the eyes of god a sin is a sin. So don’t preach out of the bible unless you follow it 100%. One a last note why on earth deny thousands of people the opportunity to be whole again cause you don’t agree with embryonic stem cells. Don’t be selfish (which is another sin) and deny other people, let scientist do their job, they are finding cures for a reason and ya they might not come in a pleasant way but hey life isn’t pleasant, who knows maybe someday you might be needing it.

Just b/c a person is conivted crimnal in the eyes of the court does not actually mean they are really a criminal it happens all to often, people getting thrown in jail in error. A man just got released this week after spending 26 yrs in prision for rapes he didn’t commit. DNA evidence cleared him. Also another man after seving 18 yrs in prision got released this week or last week. DNA evidence cleared him. In the eyes of the court they convicted those men but decades later their innocence is finally proven.. So what if those guys were executed before their DNA cleared them. They state just killed a innocent man, how can you repay the family sure you can give them money but all you are saying is this is how much this person life was. they can’t replace those voided yrs. It is wrong. The Death penalty is something that should be used and I agree with but only when they have 110% knowledge that, that person comitted the crime.

Actually Joe,
Convictions do not always equate with guilt. Someone was just released after 14 years behind bars when DNA evidence cleared him. On the other hand many Catholics (and possibly other Christian faiths) believe that baptism cleans a child of original sin. Not being baptized in this case does equate with guilt.
Did you read the study or just comment on it? They looked at real data, not hypothetical scenarios.
Further many spontaneous abortions occur naturally and many fertilized embryos fail to implant. The result is, to the woman, indistinguishable from her normal period. If all conceptions are “people” then why don’t these right to lifers save and bury their period’s product in a solemn service as they would that of a child? I bet you think I’m being ridiculous, I am just though pointing out the ridiculousness of the right to life position.

Ghandi-
“It’s not the government’s role to get involved in controversial research projects anyway”

So it’s okay for the goverment then to choose a womans right? It’s okay for them to tell the same sex that they can not marry one another? Or adopt? But it is okay that the goverment can support a war.. Sure we are going in there guns out ready to protect innocent people. Costing us billions of dollars, but we can’t even help out the people in our own country. People who serve and protect us, military, police officers, firefighters well heck they get the shit end of the stick their life is on the line for our protection or freedom but yet they are the lowest paid in the United States. Sounds pretty jacked up to me. I think we need to be taking care of our own problems in our own country first before spending billions of dollars on someone else’s land.. Smells like oil to me.

vague:

I did not yet read your link. My point, though, was that the end does not always justify the means. Let’s assume abortion does create less crime. To those who believe that abortion is taking a life, the end might not justify the means.

For that matter, I bet I can eliminate crime within a few years entirely. First, move to a totalitarian police state. Second, execute all criminals. Third, threaten those who commit future crimes with death. But if the result were to end crime, it still wouldnt justify the means.

Also, to your point about funerals for spontaneous abortions, I believe my own experience allows me to address this. A number of years ago, my wife miscarried at close to 7 months. The baby inside her died and she was forced to deliver it. We did not have a funeral for it. Was it a life? In my opinion, yes. But just as I don’t go to all funerals of all who die, neither did I yet feel the connection with this life to mourn it in such a fashion. That doesn’t mean we did not mourn the loss of life…just that it was more of a private issue.

tony:

Q. How many Bushies does it take to change a light bulb?

A. None. Haliburton will change it for them (and charge $3,000,000 for the replacement bulb)

:)

joebagodonuts- I agree with you as far as the funeral and how you felt that their wasn’t a complete connection to that life to mourn.
With that said that is how I felt when I had my abortion, sure it was tough sure it was sad, and ya my dad turned his back on me but I did what I felt I had to do I had not had a connection with that life infact wasn’t fully developed. If I could I would have donated the fetus if that is what they needed for research. Would you have done the same for the child that was miscarried? Would you feel good knowing that you could give somoene else a chance since the unborn didn’t have one?
You think you could clear crime all together. You know how many corrupt cops are out there? Corrupt judges? this world is becoming one big corruption. Hey lets just kill all the crimnals? Gee that sounds fair what about those that are innocent that are in there and were set up, or hey they just convicted the wrong guy. So those people deserve to be punshed just b/c someone thought they looked like the criminal or that they just got the wrong guy entirely? Hell we will just kill them, that way we don’t have to worry about our taxes going to them. Ya let me tell you I am sure those people who feel the urge to go on killing sprees will know what will happen to them if they get caught and convicted but doesn’t stop them from doing it does it. So really is death the answer? You are against abortion b/c you feel as if it is morally wrong but yet you are all for killing criminals some in which may in fact be innocent. Sounds like double standards to me.

But Joe the issue is and has always been freedom. How can you or anyone think they have the right to tell someone what they can and cannot do with their own body? I’m 34, I have always used condoms, I’ve either been lucky or my fish can’t swim. If my wife got pregnant we would likely abort as we could not afford a child right now. We have been responsible. Many Christian conservatives do not allow children to be given the requisite knowledge to be responsible. If an eighteen year old couple gets pregnant because they lacked the requisite knowledge (sex ed and birth control was never taught), should they give up their futures to get married, he finds a job on his HS education, and she stays home to care for the kid because they can’t afford daycare? They may resent each other and their kid because their hopes and dreams were lost when they did what people have been doing forever.
Sorry if I don’t like that scenario, still if conception is the start of life and all life is precious when are we going to start having ceremonies for spontaneous abortions and failed implantations? That would be more respectful than flushing little Joey down the toilet.
I say little Joey because for every 100 female conceptions there are 120 male conceptions. Of these more males spontaneously abort so at birth the ratio is around 105 males to 100 females.

Sorry Joe that last post was harsh, I just get so passionate.

I just thank god I was raised in the manner I was, that I received the education that I did. I’d like to think everyone has the same opportunities but I know they don’t. Where would I be if I had been born to a poor, ultra conservative Christian family in a small Midwestern town? We are the sum of all our experiences, change the experiences you change the person. Joe, I do not know how you felt about abortion before your miscarriage, something like that can change a person. I honestly hope in the future your wife and you have as many healthy children as you wish. I feel like shit for posting what I did to someone who has been through what you have been through. I am truly sorry for the tone I took and for what you have been through. But I still feel that the right needs to exist and that good has come of the right and with stem cells more good may come.

I wrote:

“No Jim, the majority of people standing on the left believe in personal freedom and upholding the rights given to us by our Constitution”

tomd:
“Hahahahahahahah!!!!….. Haven’t had a laugh that good in a while.”

tony:
“Wow… what an amazingly deft argument. Wheeew, need to sit down after that one.”

:^) What else could he possibly come back with Tony?
Tom has to act as though he’s laughing that off, precisely because it’s absolutely true.
Everything from whether gay people can get married and have the same legal protections as straight people, or whether women can have an abortion, or give their unused blastocysts for stem cell research, or many and various other issues that involve personal freedoms — the Religious Right wants to deny or control.

And though many of these people claim to be religious, you’ll never see them support the idea of the American Civil Liberties Union either — even when that organization stands up to defend people’s religious freedom. No, they like to claim that the ACLU is a “leftwing” group, although people who stand on the political right who feel their constitutional rights are being violated are often defended by that group (and although there is no equivalent “rightwing” group that tries to defend the Constitution and our rights the way the ACLU does).

The entire goal of the Religious Right is to enslave this country with the Christian faith and then decide for us what is accordingly acceptable and not acceptable — and any other beliefs are of no importance, and our Constitutional rights and freedoms be dammed. It is Anti-American.

Gandhi:
“Amazing how many liberals come out of the woodwork to rebut a single post by a “religious zealot”.”

I having a feeling that many of us felt the need to reply because it isn’t every day in WB that we are forced to look at a six inch long posting regarding Jesus and the Rapture — I guess because it’s a political forum. And when it’s delivered in the form of an overwrought and hysterical tantrum-rant, it becomes just too irresistable to pass by without comment.

Well said Adrienne!

Adrienne, that was well said.

Thanks Sarah and vague! :^)

Ghandi,

Your take is that the Federal Government should not get involved with controversial science experiments.
So why manipulate scientific data for G-8 suumit to refute global warming issue?
Why did government get involved when Terri Schiavo was scientifically diagnosed brain-dead to save her life?
Why do they repeatedly bash science when they take the position that being gay is a choice.
The government of the United States has taken several steps back in their understanding of the importance of science but not the manipulation of it to help their agenda and to cater to the “Far Right.”
Oh, and by the way I’m really not that worked up.
When football season arrives then you’ll see me worked up.
Bush Sucks!

US scientists find flexible stem cells in placenta By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent
Fri Aug 5, 9:31 AM ET

Scientists looking for easier and less-controversial alternatives to stem cells from human embryos said on Friday they found a potential source in placentas saved during childbirth.

They described primitive cells found in a part of the placenta called the amnion, which they coaxed into forming a variety of cell types and which look very similar to sought-after embryonic stem cells.

With 4 million children born in the United States each year, placentas could provide a ready source of the cells, the team at the University of Pittsburgh said.

It is not yet certain that the cells they found are true stem cells, said Stephen Strom, who worked on the study. But they carry two important genes, called Oct 4 and nanog, which so far have only been seen on embryonic stem cells.

“We were just blown away when we found those two genes expressed in those cells,” Strom said in a telephone interview.

“The presence of these two genes suggests these cells are pluripotent, which means they should be able to form any cell type in the body.”

Stem cells are the body’s master cells. So-called adult stem cells are found in the tissue and blood are a source for renewing cells.

Embryonic stem cells are found in days-old embryos. While powerful, their use is controversial because some people, President Bush among them, believe destroying an embryo is immoral and unethical.

Supporters of embryonic stem-cell research say it may provide an important path to a new field called regenerative medicine, in which diseases ranging from juvenile diabetes to paralysis could be cured using transplants of carefully cultivated stem cells.

There are moves in Congress to expand funding of embryonic stem cell research, in case it proves to be the best way forward, but also counter-measures to further restrict it.

GETTING AROUND POLITICS

Mindful of the controversy, Strom’s team looked for other sources of stem cells.

“We looked and we found them. The politics is important,” Strom said.

Writing in the journal Stem Cells, Strom and colleagues said they looked in a part of the placenta called the amnion — the outer membrane of the amniotic sac.

The placenta is the interface between mother and fetus during gestation, and is produced by the embryo. The embryo and later fetus floats inside the sac of amniotic fluid.

Other teams of researchers, notably Dr. Anthony Atala of Wake Forest University in North Carolina, have found stem cells resembling embryonic cells in amniotic fluid, but research is still early and it is not known how useful those would be.

Strom says his cells are different are different from the ones the Wake Forest team found, and they may not be true stem cells because they did not form tumors in his experiments, as a true stem cell would.

Strom said the cells he worked with also do not appear to be immortal, meaning they die out after a while in the lab, unlike true stem cells.

Strom’s team tested the cells in lab dishes, incubating them in various compounds, and got them to form into what looked like heart cells, nerve cells, liver cells and pancreatic cells.

Strom’s lab works specifically on liver transplants and he hopes to develop the cells to use them instead of donated liver. Pancreatic cells would be important because they could be used to treat diabetes.

The university has licensed the technology to a company called Stemnion, LLC, and the researchers are shareholders and will receive license fees as part of the agreement.

I would say that Federal Funding is crucial to success with large scale projects. if you feel that controversy should dictate the science - remember that immunization (government sponsored) was extremely controversial. It eradicated small pox and polio.

Tony I was only trying to present facts on the subject. My comment about them snuffing out enough lives was in reference to the war. FYI. And why would you interpret that I’m yelling? This is a democrat blog right? Seems like most of you get off on trying to take away from anyone who has a viewpoint other than your own? I just don’t get that mentality and alot of what is said is so childish. Maybe we should list our ages so we can be more sympathetic or just go WOW! Annie

—-
I THINK THEY’VE SNUFFED OUT ENOUGH LIVES & BULBS
—-

That’s considered yelling. If not, then why was that the only part of your post in ALL-CAPS? Also - you need to read posts as being critical of your subject, not you personally.

I started my post to you by stating that I might be confused as to your message… if so, try to correct me. The feigned crocodile tears don’t work.