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I have very bad dealings with unions. I know this is not a very liberal thing to say, but the 2 unions AI and SAG have both proven to be solely focused on the benefit and growth of the union itself.

I’ve had quite a few examples on known fraud that the union basically smirked at… and then proceeded to force me to pay out. I know I can into this as the company, not free-lancer or actor, so it was kind of assumed that I had the bags of money. My company has 4 employees, and our money bags are really small (hung like a hamster…???)

The problem was - I got absolutely nothing from being involved with the union. it even came down to the union forcing me to force the actors I hired into paying any late union dues. If they lied to me (which one did) I had to pay significant fines because the actor worked while be behind on their dues.

I know unions have served a purpose in the past… no doubt. They need to be focused again into making a difference in their workers lives - not just growing their own rosters and fee-base.

Maybe this is what’s needed to shake things up a bit.

This issue would require some serious debate, I am not sure I agree that global unions are the way to go in that transcending borders and governments would require a beauracracy that would be massive. I also don’t agree with the statement “the vast majority of Americans need someone to fight for them”. I believe we handicap alot of people by providing too many crutches for them. The vast majority of Americans may excel more than you think if they had to rely on their own talents and ambitions. Certainly there is a need for unions in some industries, but to blanket every “employee” may bring undesirable consequences.

Paul, your premise that the demise of unions was caused by anyone other than the union leadership is entirely false and indefensible.

The fact is, union leadership acquired so much power, they did what Republicans are doing now, way overstepping their use and abuse of power. They priced workers out of their jobs from mid-1960’s to the late 1980’s and early ‘90’s. It was their own constituents who saw the writing on the wall and decided to stand with management instead of their unions, as a protective measure to insure the competitiveness of their jobs.

Had the unions fought for benefits and accomodated business management on scaling back the rate of wage increases permitting mgt. to continue to compete in the global marketplace, the jobs would not have been lost as fast, and membership would by far, far larger than it is today.

I believe in Unions, I was a UAW member some decades ago. But, it became obvious to me when my brother-in-law was getting 17$ an hour back in the early 1970’s for sweeping floors and changing light bulbs, the union leadership was going to face the music eventually. And they did. Ford could compete with Japan and jobs and Detroit, Saginaw, and Flint Michigan began to suffer horribly. UAW’s response was not to make concessions but, seek legal action to keep Ford from moving to more competitive environments. That was a battle they were destined to lose and which their membership was going to suffer mightily over.

The only folks to blame for the demise of unions are the Unions leaders. And yes, the Unions did finally offer concessions in the late 1980’s and early ‘90’s, but they came way, way too late. Public sentiment against unions had reached critical mass, and deservedly so.

I think union leadership’s mismanagement of unions has been irreparable. The general public now views the word union as a dirty, filthy socialist communist word, and changing that will not occur with all the best efforts for generations.

Unions made this country great from the 1930’s through the 1950’s. But, then they blew it totally. Our nation needs unions with knowledgeable educated and responsible management, but, if they elected such management, they could not overturn their bad rap. Unions are dead and Union management has the smoking gun it its hand. There is no defensible argument that you can make to shift the blame for the death of unions on anyone else but the Unions themselves.

Also, unions don’t have much leverage in a global economy. Corporations just move operations elsewhere, where many more people are waiting in long lines for those same jobs for less pay.

Globalization is good for developing nations (e.g. China, India, Russia, etc.), but bad for developed nations (U.S., England, etc.). When you’re on top (in terms of standard of living), it’s hard to go anywhere but sideways (or down) while the rest of the world goes up.

The only way to avoid the decline and pain is to develop new technologies and products. Otherwise, the only jobs left are primarily service oriented, and that can not sustain us.

I always find it interesting the way people use the words “working man”. Most Americans work for a living. My father was a blue collar working man. I am an educated white-collar guy. His job sucked. That is true. But I put in more total hours at work than he did and I am responsible for things when I am away from work in a way he never was. Very few people in the U.S. live lives of leisure. We are all working men.

I have visited and consulted in over 100 different companies a year for the past 10 years. The union shops I have been in have tied managements hands and made it extremely difficult to adjust to the fast pace and constant change that their customers demand. One in particular has two non-union staff people that are in constant negotiation with the union stewards to gain flexibility. This company is seriously thinking of moving, just to get away from it. The owner believes it costs him a 6% of total revenues because of his overall escalated cost compared to his competitors and his area of the country. Unions do not work…

We are a market driven society. The market does not have $40/hour line workers any more, there’s no reason for it, it’s not that skilled and there’s plenty of people standing in line that would do those jobs as well or even better.

I find these posts very interesting. It appears that many of you do not have much use for the leadership of the unions. I posted an article in the red column & I think it applies here also.

A couple of things I might add:
First: the air traffic controllers went out on an illegal strike, & therefore were replaced.
Second: I would not want union workers to represent Homeland Security.
Thirdly: I have to agree with almost everything everyone else has said.

Perplexed

Paul:

This thread is pretty interesting because it is hard to know who is pro union by their national voting record. I’m a pro union republican!!!

My perceptions of Unions came from being raised in a blue collar union logging town in Oregon. I owe my teeth (literally) to the union movement as well as being raised with great medical coverage.

In addition, I have worked regularly with three different unions in our school district as a district director.

My take is that the farther the union decisions were made from the membership the more the union represented themselves and the less they represented the rank and file.

On the other hand, I can’t imagine how we would of written a fair contract without some represented group in front of us to catch our well intended errors. From my perspective as a board member our unions served well, and we were able to solve many problems.

My observation of unions is that there is a flaw in leadership that I have no idea how to fix. When unions hold elections, it is so difficult to get people to run. What happens often is the more extreme of the rank and file agree to run. At state and national levels the leadership gets more and more extreme, and looks less and less like whom they represent. I would suggest that “in general” union membership is far more moderate in their political beliefs than union leadership.

I think and other issue for unions is leadership. If a union is made up of blue collar workers, it is likely these representatives have little training in the corporate board room. In education circles it is a bit hard for a bus driver to negotiate with a superintendent for instance.

I do agree with you that all workers need some for m of representation. As a leader I always welcomed representation. Maybe for all it’s flaws unions are still the best way to go. It seems that some reform may be needed in order for unions to become stronger.

Craig

P.S. I agree with some of the comments concerning union bosses becoming corrupt with their power.

My good friend John Kerry had this to say. “Just like President Reagan busted the air traffic controllers strike, we must move to prevent this threat to our two-party system,” said Sen. John F. Kerry. “If we don’t stop this illegal labor action, many people with no practical work skills may have to leave high-paying positions to go out and find actual jobs for the first time.”

John Kerry fan, you comment and quotes make no sense. Care to provide a link to a reliable source quoting Sen. John Kerry as you have above? Or is it another John Kerry whom you are quoting?

californiaconservative.org

Special Report: Dem Bill to Block Union Walkout from AFL-CIO
Filed Under: Humor

On the heels of this morning’s big news about the union breakup, Scott Ott reports:

Senate Democrats today introduced legislation to block the Teamsters and Service Employees labor unions from walking out of the AFL-CIO.

Teamsters President James Hoffa said his union and others want to focus their resources on recruiting new members, instead of simply throwing money at Democrat election campaigns. The departure of the two largest member unions will deplete the AFL-CIO annual budget by $20 million.

Just like President Reagan busted the air traffic controllers strike, we must move to prevent this threat to our two-party system, said Sen. John F. Kerry, a key sponsor of the bill. If we don’t stop this illegal labor action, many people with no practical work skills may have to leave high-paying positions to go out and find actual jobs for the first time.

Truth in humor.

RELATED:
AFL-CIO Splinters, Spooking Some Democrats

I agree with David, the unions in mfg. plants are dead as a doornail, or soon will be.

Any of the japanese auto plants here are built in right to work states and will never allow a union to form. Vote in a union and they close the doors.
Unions have killed off the entire economy in Michigan and it wont be coming back untill its a right to work state.

The big 3 auto companys are in their last days right now, the uaw will finish them off soon.

A good friend just retired from ford, he is 49 and had 30 yrs. in. He gets about $3000 a month plus fully paid BC-BS for life for him and his wife, at 62 he will draw the max in SS.

What was his job that paid over 60K a year?
He bolted bumpers on cars!
I’m happy for him but sad for the economy the next generation will grow up in.

Beagle, you can’t blame the death of manufacturing jobs in America on the unions.

Those companies are all moving operations to countries where people work for peanuts and the government provides healthcare.

Basically what you’re saying is that it’s the American worker’s fault for refusing to work for peanuts. That’s just wrong.

Yeah, you can’t blame it all on Unions, even though unions were shooting themselves in the foot every step of the way.

Unions can’t have much leverage anymore in a global economy. Corporations just move operations elsewhere, where many more people are waiting in long lines for those same jobs for less pay. Globalization is good for raising incomes of developing nations (e.g. China, India, Russia, etc.), but bad for developed nations (U.S., England, etc.). When you’re at the top already in terms of standard of living, there’s no place to go but sideways (or down) while the less developed nations go up. The decline may last for some time. Unfortunately, many in the U.S. are going to see falling incomes for quite some time to come, because the world has a glut of much cheaper labor. And, perhaps, in the long run, that’s a good thing for everyone.

Pundit

It is the Union workers fault for not adapting to the changing environment. The unions demand that the companies absorb 100% of the increased healthcare costs while fighting to kill the tort reform needed to help lower healthcare costs. When companies make a product in good faith and then an unexpected problem causes them to recall the product therefore bringing the trial lawyers out of the woodwork to get rich while putting the company out of business, is a sad fact of the anti corporation landscape of the left. There are less and less companies starting into the medical field because the risks vs. potential profit margin are shrinking daily. A local company had its union workers go out on strike near here last winter, the got what they wanted and it forced the company to shift the plant overseas to stay in the black. Is this the companies fault? I say no. it is the unions fault for not accepting the fact that the workers have to pay for part of their own healthcare. Until a worker has to pay part of the cost they have no reason to run to a surgeon every time they get a ingrown toenail. I know this is a exaggerated example but it’s the point that’s important. More than a few of these union workers are less skilled than the high school kids working at McDonalds and getting way overpaid for what they are doing. All you have to do is jump in a American union made car or truck versus a American made non union car or truck to see the benefit of non union workers. When a worker has no reason to worry that his job is at stake if he does his/her job poorly and/or dangerously wrong than they have no reason to do the job well and to a vision of excellence. Not every union worker uses the union as a “safety net” to do their job poorly but how many does it take to put the company in the red? If Billy Bob wants some time off work he can drop a wrench on his foot and get a paid month off and all healthcare costs covered by the company. Plus you have the union heads pledging the workers votes and dues money to the democratic party in favor of pro union legislation. Drive by a union head quarters during election time and count the republican signs out front, you won’t find any, why, because the union tries to control the decision of the workers. The union refuses to let workers with republican stickers on their cars park in the company lots. And it’s not uncommon for the union to make workers that buy cars that are non-union made park away from the building or in a special lot. Is this the freedom Americans have fought and died for? I say no.

When you look at the history of American labor prior to unionization you would almopst have to agree that they were a necessary organization. Most notably in certain industries like apparel. The “sweatshops” in this country were horrible. People forced to work for low wages in horrible conditions and, with no benefits. Workers were at the mercy of management. (The “sweatshops BTW still exist in this country today involving mostly illegal aliens).

Somebody had to speak up for the workers, hence the inevitible formation and spread of unions. Of course this led to everybody paying a price. Management paid, workers paid and ultimately the consumer paid. Comparitively speaking however, things were better all around.

Unions began to become extremely powerful organizations and forces. Influencing strikes, political elections, involvement in organized crime, etc.

I personally have been involved on the management side of several union contract negotiations. I have seen them give away benefits, holidays, etc.in order to get things like “checkoff” without which they could not exist.

I have been involved in union shops as an Industrial Engineer responsible for establishing wage standards and incentive systems. I have negotiated with shop stewards, union reps and union engineers to “give a little here and take a little there”.

While laws and contracts are constantly changing, I once helped a company with a union move operations off-shore. This of course eliminated the jobs of the domestic operation’s workers. The company had to pay the union an amount of money for each piece produced off-shore as a condition of the move.

I have been involved in union organization drives and seen terrible incidents of violence. I saw a union opponent’s house burned down. This is extreme I know but most organizational drives that I have seen and heard of (in only a few industries) have been violent.

In a properly managed company and, with the laws governing labor today, workers do not need a third party negotiator.

AP,

I dont think all the MFG plants moved overseas to get workers for peanuts.

Many moved to right to work states to avoid unions driving them out of business.

In most cases it isn’t even wages that force them to move, its other silly crap put into union contracts that force them to move out.

If the widget line breaks down, and you cant move the widget-wonkers to the smidget-wonker line because the contract says; widget and smidget wonkers can only wonk widgets or smidgets because of their classification to do so.

You must pay the widget-wonkers to set and wait untill the widget-wonker line repair crew can fix the line. If they are busy, the smidget-wonker repair crew can’t help out because the contract says; smidget-wonker repairmen can only work on smidget-wonker problems.

It sounds silly, and it is, but that is reality in some large union mfg. plants.

I’ve worked in several union factorys that closed the doors for exactly those reasons.

I’ve also seen workers that I knew for years, shoot themselves in the head after a year out of work, realise they were worth $7 an hr. on the open market, not the 50+K they were making. After the plant closed they couldn’t deal with reality.

I’m not talking just a few, 30-40 out of 1000 workers. Not all shot themselves, drive into a tree, OD on something, whatever, dead within 2 years.
Going from $25 an hr. to $12-15 would be a bitter pill, but they might have been able to deal with that?

Beagle

That is part of my point above. These guys are grossly overpaid for all that they do. Ive heard of workers pulling to “red cord” hence shutting down an entire car assembly line because he didnt get his break at the exact second he should have. This made hundereds of other workers stand and wistle on the clock untill someone showed up to replace this clown.

When I see these out of work union guys selling there houses and moving into an apertment and getting jobs at fastfood joints I feel ZERO pitty for them. Their greed got them where they are and it is unfair to blame this on BUCHCO. But it is very funny in a twisted way.

Just a side note that fits quite well with this topic;
Everyone that cares anything about this topic should go and rent the movie “American Dream”.

Its a real and true documentary about what happened to the “Hormel” workers and the crap the union did to them.
It might just open some eyes of those that havn’t worked in union plants.

The stars of the movie are the real people that worked there, and its not a slockumentary by someone like Micheal Mooron.

Three quick comments :

1. I have seen companies due to their inconsistent management and policies that would be better off with a union for the sake of establishing the ground rules.

2. “Right to Work” states are ones in which the worker has a choice as to whether or not he wishes to join the union. Many right to work statyes have unionized shops with some workers iun and others out of the union. Actually very often everyone is treated as if they were in the union even though they pay no dues. Its a good deal for them. (There are 22 RTW states)

3. Real Earnings are Higher in Right to Work States source : http://www.nilr.org/Real Earnings.htm

Bill,

I don’t see anything funny about people losing their jobs, or killing themselves after the plant closed.
They hired in to do a job and took the wages given.
The unions inflated the wages to the point the companys closed, not the guy that took a job to feed his family and did what he was told to do for those wages.

I see little need for unions now, but I cant find any glee in whats happening to the workers in those plants that close.

Beagle

I never said suicide was funny. I simply said watching these guys who were grossly overpaid for years face reality in the modern world for the 1st time as it is no ones fault but their own.

Bill,

I wasn’t trying to heap a guilt trip on you, my point is that its not the workers that caused plants to close, if they liked the union or not, they had to join to get a job to feed their family.

If I offer you $200 a day to check and deliver the mail from my mailbox, because a union says I must pay that amount, and you take that job to provide for your family, would that make you a lazy sleeze?
I don’t think it does, those that set the rules/wages are though.

Starting to understand my point?

Beagle

I understand your point, but disagree with it. Any person does not have to take a union job. Most people take union jobs because they believe their jobs were untouchable. This mentality leads to laziness in people who are pre-disposed to such things without fear of any repercussions. It is NOT the companies fault when the workers strike to keep from adjusting to the current climate of the workforce of the country. It is the unions fault when they get the contract that forces the workers out of their jobs, thus making it BUSHCO’s fault. It would appear that President Bush personally came into the building and wrote a personal check to the owners to move the jobs overseas. Why does the media insist on placing the blame on Bush for this?

Great article Paul — and I agree 100% that Stern and Hoffa have got the right idea!
Unions (by any name) are necessary. They will ALWAYS be necessary. Otherwise there is no check on the power of business to ride roughshod on American workers.
A Behemoth Union like the AFL-CIO however, is not necessary, because the bigger they got, the more they became corrupt, greedy, self-serving, unconcerned over doing right by their members, as well as uncommitted to the idea of expanding Union membership in this country.
I believe that what has happened will most likely turn out to be a good thing, because the AFL-CIO has been doing a terrible job for a very long time, and therefore, deserved to lose the Teamsters and the SEIU, as a result.

… 3. Real Earnings are Higher in Right to Work States source : nilrr.org/RealEarnings.htm

Posted by: steve smith at July 27, 2005 12:45 PM

Really? That’s interesting.

See what LRA says: laborresearch.org/charts.php?id=34”

Interesting…LRA doesn’t take into account the decreased cost of living in RTW states.

d.a.n,

Are you smashing me for my reference? It is a good one.

No, Steve.
Your reference was good (and interesting).
I believe your reference more than my LRA reference.

That is, the LRA article fails to take into account the lower cost of living in RTW states. And, it’s most likely, the lower cost of living in RTW states is because of the RTW (Right To Work) laws in the RTW states.

Adrienne

Why are you so anti-management? What is it about management that is so evil while the unions trying to price themselves out of their member’s jobs are so regal? I don’t understand the need for a union. Why can’t these workers go out into the fair market and get themselves a job on their own. If management treats you unfairly then leave. If enough people complain/leave then someone up the chain sees the issue and removes the problem. I worked for Meijer as a non-union grocery clerk it was a shock to find out that the union wage was $1.50 less a hour (plus union dues) than what I was making. What good would a union have done for me that I didn’t do myself for free with out paying someone off? The thought that there needs to be more union workers in this country is silly to me, it is the unions that drive companies out of the country. Ill stick to my own and keep my job.

Many of you say you can do without unions because of corruption, racketeering and so on. Do you say the same thing with reference to businesses: “Oh, why do we not get rid of business organizations because many of them are corrupt and venal?”

You do not. Evidently, business groups have done an excellent job in spreading their message: THEY drive our economy. THEY bring prosperity. THEY are the backbone of the country.

What about people who work for a living? I’d venture to say this group includes at least 90% of you who are complaining about unions. Don’t you think they contribute to the prosperity and well being of this country?

Workers of all kinds are being marginalized. Unless you have a group that works for your interests you are doomed to accept the crumbs doled out by business.

Paul

Why is it that you believe the owners and management of companies do not “work” for a living? The owner is the one with the most to lose. And management is not the bloodthirsty vampires you make them out to be, they are not working to dole out crumbs as you say. They are there to make the company efficient and profitable so it can remain in business. I’m sorry if you are one of the slackers that find yourself in the problem area that only a union could save your “job”, but those of us that work hard do not need to pay money out of our pockets to make Jim Hoffa rich so we feel safe to continue to do our job poorly.

How am I being “marginalized” when I make $1.50 a hour more than a union worker doing the same job? Don’t say because I am being paid to stay out of a union because then it would be more profitable for the company to invite the union in if its such a great deal.

Face it if you’re a union fan you fear/despise management. And have accepted the line that only a union can “protect” you. Reminds me of shop owners paying “protection” money to some of the same people in the past.

Someone whose name I can’t remember told me something long ago that I have never been able to argue with….to paraphrase him, A union is only good for people too weak to bargain for themselves.

Beagle~

Thank~ you for clearing up the fact that these industries are not leaving Michigan to go overseas…they are going south!
So many people around my area believe that and I try telling them all the time that while I was in Missouri we watched them come our way!
My dad had been raised up pro-union and worked at Procter&Gamble in Cheboygan, MI! When they closed their doors in 1990 we were transferred to Cape Girardeau, MO! My dad was worried because it was a non-unionized plant and he was told that was “evil” and he would suffer because of it! Quite the opposite actually…he made a better wage, no union dues, better benefits, and commented all the time on how the work ethic was ten times better by employees!

The trouble is you can never get these facts through to the left.

In most cases it isn’t even wages that force them to move

No, it’s the operating costs. No company moves just because its employees are annoying. They move because they can make a bigger profit elsewhere. That’s free-market 101.

A union is only good for people too weak to bargain for themselves.

Hmm… That would be everyone who can’t constantly migrate around the country and go without a paycheck for months and years until they find the best deal or get the right training. :/

Please. That’s the dumbest thing I’ve heard in a while - and I hear a lot of dumb things here.

There’s little loyalty anymore (if any) between corporations and employees.
That’s because the world is growing smaller (in a sense), and the world does not have economic equilibrium.
What we have now is a race to the bottom (see below).
It’s unavoidable. Labor laws and unions can’t stop it.
As the world grows smaller (e.g. fast telecommunications, shipping, travel, etc.), corporations simply move to where labor is cheapest. And, there will be such places for a long long time. Thus, unions have very little leverage (if any), as long as there is no economic equilibrium in the world.

Our problems are really much larger than the survival of unions.

Our problem in the U.S. is analogous to basic heat transfer: heat transfer flows from a body with high energy or temperature (i.e. high standard of living and wealth) to lower energy or temperature (i.e. lower standard of living and wealth).

In a free world market economy, it’s a process that’s unavoidable, unless Americans can grow and learn new technologies and create new products and services that will be in demand (regardless of where they are manufactured).

This used to happen often withing the United States (e.g. move from California to Utah, etc.).
But, as the world grows smaller, off-shore is even more attractive to corporate owners.

With our pressing problems, that continue grow in number and severity, the likihood of that doesn’t look encouraging (e.g. declining education, growing elitist government corruption, growing debt, energy vulnerability, growing investor/corporate fraud, ever increasing taxes, looming shortfalls in Social Security, Medicare, pensions, etc., increasingly unaffordable healthcare and medicine, abuse of eminent domain laws, terrorism, war, illegal aliens, globalization, nuclear proliferation, crumbling infrastructure, dissaffected and apathetic voter populations, an aging population, ever growing hours per work week, irresponsible and unaccountable government, election fraud, barriers by main parties to independents and 3rd parties, a ridiculous tax system, foreign policy that alienates allies, Iraq, etc. ).

There is one disturbing danger of moving all manufacturing offshore though. There may come a time (e.g. war) when we need high manufacturing output, and we may not have it. Will we be able to ramp up again to manufacture enough steel, electronics, etc.? Will we forget how to do and build the most basic things? Things, we originally invented and were the original masters of?

Race to the bottom: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_the_bottom
____________________________________________
In its early stages, a race to the bottom can be of immediate benefit to all parties, in situations where laws are genuinely and inefficiently burdensome.
In general, however, these contests regularly work to undermine the ability of governments to enforce labor standards such as workers’ compensation, or to raise taxation in order to fund social services and correct externalities (such as pollution and social degradation).
Races to the bottom between sovereign states can also undermine democratic accountability, since the elected governments are no longer economically capable of passing legislation which enforces environmental or labour protections that are more stringent than those current in neighbouring countries.
_______________________________________________

Race to the bottom: Global Village or Global Pillage ?

www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Brecher/Race%20to%20Bottom_GVGP.html

Bill:
“Why are you so anti-management?”

Actually Bill, I’m more Pro-Union than anti-management. Or perhaps I should say, I’m not anti-management as long as a company values their employees.
As the owner of a small business, I certainly value the hardwork employees give. These days it seems all people get for their time and hardwork with a company is a feeling of expendability.

“What is it about management that is so evil”

That’s an easy one. Greed — one of the “seven deadly sins”, eh?

“while the unions trying to price themselves out of their member?s jobs are so regal?”

Trying to fight and to prosper in an environment designed to treat people like expendable nuisances is a noble thing. I believe it always has been.

“I don?t understand the need for a union.”

That’s the whole trouble — the idea has been totally demonized, and too many average working class people have fallen for it.

“Why can?t these workers go out into the fair market and get themselves a job on their own. If management treats you unfairly then leave.”

Just keep leaving jobs all the time? Start once again at the bottom of the heap somewhere else? What a drag. Also, I wonder if you have any other people to support? Or rent/mortgage to pay?

“If enough people complain/leave then someone up the chain sees the issue and removes the problem.”

You obviously don’t understand how a large corporation works. The left hand never knows what the right hand is doing. And sometimes when they do, they don’t care. They know that there are a long line of other people eager for the work, so problems with management often don’t seem that important — unless they start to notice they’re beginning to lose a lot of money and/or productivity because of the problem.

“I worked for Meijer as a non-union grocery clerk it was a shock to find out that the union wage was $1.50 less a hour (plus union dues) than what I was making.”

What about health care? That can add up to a hell of a lot more than 1.50 an hour and union dues. If you were paying a high cost for your health plan while they weren’t, they might have actually been making more money than you were.

“What good would a union have done for me that I didn?t do myself for free with out paying someone off?”

Well I can only tell you that my husband is a union carpenter working in a union town. He makes a hell of a lot more money than he used to - when he was not in a union. We also have full heath coverage, including eye and dental care. (Before we had a crappy plan that didn’t include eye or dental.) The extra money he makes, and the fact that we don’t pay for healthcare, finally allowed us to buy a home awhile back (in the SF Bay Area -not a cheap undertaking, let me tell you!), rather than continue to pay off the landlords mortgage. It’s also the best investment we ever made too, because during the time we’ve had our home, the cost of a home in my area has gone up over a hundred thousand dollars - and they’re still climbing. Thanks to a Union job, we managed to finally pull ourselves out of rental servitude.

“The thought that there needs to be more union workers in this country is silly to me, it is the unions that drive companies out of the country.”

Sorry, but I consider this very naive.
And as far as my husbands job goes — there will always need to be carpenters. And in a union town, union carpenters. Maybe you should get out of the service sector, learn a trade, and join the brotherhood of a union? Then you might be able to understand why they’re so worth keeping.

Btw, there are also programs in many union’s that will help you learn other job skills once you’ve joined. For instance, my husband attended a locksmithing program and got a professional certificate. It’s a handy skill, and he thinks it might be a fun and lucretive job to do once he gets to be an old man.

“Ill stick to my own and keep my job.”

Anyone who works for a living IS sticking to their own when they support unions. Sticking by corporations who don’t care about you, and who will make you expendable whenever they choose to, seems completely illogical to me.

Adrienne

im not going to waste my time taking apart everyline you stated. we will look at a few fatal lines you stated. “”What is it about management that is so evil”

That’s an easy one. Greed — one of the “seven deadly sins”, eh?” so a manager wanting to make the company profitable so he can keep his job and make a good life for his family is “evil” to you! then you say “”What good would a union have done for me that I didn?t do myself for free with out paying someone off?”

Well I can only tell you that my husband is a union carpenter working in a union town. He makes a hell of a lot more money than he used to - when he was not in a union. We also have full heath coverage, including eye and dental care. (Before we had a crappy plan that didn’t include eye or dental.) The extra money he makes, and the fact that we don’t pay for healthcare, finally allowed us to buy a home awhile back (in the SF Bay Area -not a cheap undertaking, let me tell you!), rather than continue to pay off the landlords mortgage. It’s also the best investment we ever made too, because during the time we’ve had our home, the cost of a home in my area has gone up over a hundred thousand dollars - and they’re still climbing. Thanks to a Union job, we managed to finally pull ourselves out of rental servitude.” so a worker tring to make a better life is noble! thank you for making my point. anyone that has 100% paid healthcare has no reason not to run to the doctor for a hangnail, until they pay part of the cost they are purly greedy!

“rental servitude” this is a nice way to portray the maky people who CHOSE to rent for a number of reasons (like no grass cutting, or not paying for a new heater or new roof). i understand the way corporations work much better than you do. there is a chain of comand and with it each step brings more money and more responsiblity. does your husband spend 12 hours on the phone fixing union workers problems on christmas day? managers do! why did you open your small bussiness? unless it was to lose money than you did it for greed and have comitted one of those seven deadly sins. so look in the mirror first. my healthcare package was 100% the same as what kroger (a union shop) offered me with less money. i disagree with the union policy that pay rasies are given on time in service rather than job performance. it’s a very poor way to run a bussiness.

Paul Siegel wrote: Don’t kid yourself. Having a college degree or even a graduate degree, or being an expert in a specific field, will not help you. Outsourcing will get you even if you are a corporate executive. Look at what happened when IBM sold its PC division to a Chinese corporation - the IBM executive in charge was part of the deal!

Yes, outsourcing can still get you. There’s no immunity.
But having no skills, no expertise, or no education will guarantee your demise.

Education and innovation is the only way to stay ahead of the race-to-the-bottom.

The only places unions can still get some leverage are where companies can not export their services (e.g. city transportaion, local services, railroad, elevator companies, etc.).
Auto makers can export those jobs, and those corporations are doing just that. It’s getting harder and harder to find something still made in the U.S.A.

Bill:
“so a manager wanting to make the company profitable so he can keep his job and make a good life for his family is “evil” to you!”

I’ve been a manager Bill, and I know many people who are managers. I also spent a long time working in sales and have known many salespeople. Being a manager or a salesperson at a large company all too often means losing your conscience and your soul under pressure from the owners/top management. It is their evilness and overwhelming greed which causes all the bad stuff which permeates the rest of the business. This is one of the major reasons I decided I wanted to own my own (small) business. It never fit my personality to be a souless tool living at the heartless whims of greedy people.
I know how to treat my employees right and I pay them well. It makes me happy, it makes them happy. Life is good for all of us — just as it should be.

“”rental servitude” this is a nice way to portray the maky people who CHOSE to rent for a number of reasons(like no grass cutting, or not paying for a new heater or new roof).”

Okay, well I PERSONALLY didn’t choose to rent. I always felt like I was throwing my money away so that my landlord could get rich.

“anyone that has 100% paid healthcare has no reason not to run to the doctor for a hangnail,”

Nah. We’re not hypochondriacs. My husband and I both hate going to the doctor — we only do so when we’re really sick. It is nice to know that if something serious happens to either of us we’re very well covered though.

“until they pay part of the cost they are purly greedy!”

So we’re greedy because we’re fortunate enough to have full union coverage? But the insurance companies and the drug companies are just trying to make an honest living, is that it?
Really Bill, I think you must be kidding.

“i understand the way corporations work much better than you do.”

Is this a contest? Fine, you win.

“there is a chain of comand and with it each step brings more money and more responsiblity.”

Right. But you pay a very high price for the money, and the responsibility is often toward things that gain you nothing personally — or in fact, may actually bother your conscience. It’s a drag.
I’m so glad that is behind me now.

“does your husband spend 12 hours on the phone fixing union workers problems on christmas day? managers do!”

Sure, I know this. While my husband hasn’t, I’ve had to work plenty of times when it was damn inconvienient. But now I’m in charge — everybody gets to go home early on Christmas Eve, and we’re not open on Christmas Day.

“why did you open your small bussiness? unless it was to lose money than you did it for greed and have comitted one of those seven deadly sins. so look in the mirror first.”

I did look in the mirror — and knew that the rat race was never for me. Now I’m a happy woman with a business that is doing very well indeed. This suits me perfectly. Without having to wear a suit! (or answer to some greedy asshole) :^)

To watch blog manager and Adrienne

In the other thread you warn people for making the same “hatespeak” you just made. You have been warned so you must be banned at this point. my brother is a vice president of the 5th largest trucking company in the country and you say “Being a manager or a salesperson at a large company all too often means losing your conscience and your soul under pressure from the owners/top management. It is their evilness and overwhelming greed which causes all the bad stuff”
I demand that you be banned for calling my brother a evil and full of overwhelming greed. AN apology will NOT fix this nothing short of her permanit banning will fix this!

Bill:
“my brother is a vice president of the 5th largest trucking company in the country and you say “Being a manager or a salesperson at a large company all too often means losing your conscience and your soul under pressure from the owners/top management. It is their evilness and overwhelming greed which causes all the bad stuff”“

Bill, I said nothing about your brother. And I said “all too often” not ALWAYS, yes?

“I demand that you be banned for calling my brother a evil and full of overwhelming greed.”

:^) I can’t be banned for calling your brother anything because I never mentioned him.

“AN apology will NOT fix this nothing short of her permanit banning will fix this!”

I thought you guys liked the kind of people who “never complain, never explain, never apologize”?
Ah well, I’m really not like that anyway.
I am sorry if you took what said so personally.

Adrienne and the management
“I am sorry if you took what said so personally.”
Is NOT an apology it is a put down discussed to sound like an apology! It is in fact you saying its a shame you are so stupid that you were upset by what I said, but I still mean what I said.

Sorry doesn’t cut it and spinning what you said after it is in print above is a pity! your EXACT quote was “It is their evilness and overwhelming greed which causes all the bad stuff which permeates the rest of the business.”

“And I said “all too often” not ALWAYS”

I see the words ALL THE BAD STUFF no where do I see ALL TOO OFTEN

You didn’t have to say him by name more than the manager said saying anyone that was for torture was evil. The point is made and you violated it after a direct warning. Only your banning will restore any credibility to this BLOG.

Bill, you are a guest here. You don’t have the right to demand anything. Your privileges here are gone for failing to understand our policy. If you can’t understand it, you can follow it. Criticizing management in general is not Criticizing a specific person with a message here. Sorry, but, your flame baiting is no longer welcome here.

II have never been enamored of unions, but I wouldn’t trust big business not to screw workers as much as they can if we didn’t have unions.

All the things said about unions are true. They have shot themselves out of the saddle. Put a company out of business to win a dispute? Makes no sense, but they do it. When members lose pay while on strike, do the union leaders lose pay? I don’t think so. Unions need to re-assess their purpose. Workers need to see the big picture. Business needs to quit overpaying CEOs, incompetent design engineers, probably pilots, a long list of others.