Democrats & Liberals: Archives

Thats awesome- Costo is trying a new business model and it is working. I hope other companies follow this plan if it works. Thast the great thing about a free economy- different companies can try different business models, and the government doesnt use its guns to stop them.

Free market people are not against companies paying their workers a lot- we are only opposed to the government forcing its way into free enterprize and imposing its one-size-fit-all business model. I applaude Costco, but fear that the lesson of their success is lost on those who support government enforced results.

I strongly support Costco too, Carla!
I live in the SF bay area, and there are several of their stores that are very convienient for me to shop at for food, household and business supplies, even gasoline for the car. Be aware though, occasionally some of the products that are sold there can be made by very exploitative corporations — so shoppers who care about such things may want to become informed regarding what companies they won’t buy anything from (even at a great place like Costco), and look for labels of origin before purchasing.

Carla,

I’ve never seen a Costco store. Do they build in areas where the would have to compete “head to head” with walmart for customers?

Beagle—

Yes, they do. WalMarts runs within easy driving distance of several Costcos, to my knowledge.

It just occured to me that maybe the Blue�s might be interested in some other companies that support the Democrats to look for in addition to Costco:

Working Assets
Borders Books
Barnes and Noble
Netflix: (no late fees or republican donations)
Whole Foods Markets
King Arthur Flour
Stonyfield Farms
Hain-Celestial Group (Celestial Seasonings tea, tons of other products, including many organics)
Green Mountain Coffee Roasters coffee
Starbucks (though nothing by the name sold in the supermarket)
Tom’s of Maine
Clorox
DHL rather than FedEx or UPS (who give heavily Republican)
J. Crew
Skechers
Gymboree
Foot Locker
Jack In The Box (not that fast food is any good, but sometimes it is necessary on a roadtrip)

For more info check out: responsibleshopper.org

Adrienne,

Great list!
I’ll put them on the boycot chart..lol.

You forgot Ben and Jerrys, they lean quite left also.

Beagle, to find a Costco near you, go to their website and click on the “Warehouse Locator” link. The closest one to where I live is 19 miles away, and, yes it is near a Walmart, although there is a closer Walmart. (about 2 miles away)

Carla, is it true that one must buy a membership similar to that of Sam’s Club to shop at Costco? If so, do you know how much it costs?

Donna:

Yes, you need a Costco membership in order to shop there.

I believe they have several types of memberships that vary in price. I think the basic membership fee is $45 per year.

At one point they allowed people a one day free trial pass, to try it out. I don’t know if they still do that.

Adrienne…thanks for posting that list.

You can also get information on companies that trend “blue” at BuyBlue.org

I haven’t shopped at Amazon since I checked the fact that they give lots of money to the GOP. :)

Incidentally, we’re off to Powell’s books later today…a locally run, blue as blue can be, bookstore.

I tried to find a Costcos around my area(Traverse City, MI) but I couldn’t. It would not let me do a statewide search so does anyone know if there is one in Michigan?

There are many ways for a retailer to earn a significant profit by imposing certain restrictions and requirements upon members of it’s supply chain.

This would include it’s vendors, transportation vehicles and materials, etc. Certainly enough to offset the additional costs of labor and benefits on the other end.

That said, doing so does not detract from the advantages to the work force and the end user.

Donna,

Get the COSTCO AmEx card too. You get back up to 2% in cash at the end of the year and there’s no annual fee. Their pharmacy doesn’t require membership and their drug prices beat most other places (per Consumers Reports anyway).

I guess I’m confused by a couple of things.

1) How is Costco doing business as a Democrat? It seems to me that they are doing business as works best for them. Are you inferring that Republicans are only concerned with screwing the employee instead of creating an atmosphere where businesses can make their own decisions on how to do business? That would be counter to what I know of most of my Republican friend’s views and how they run their businesses.

2) Are you or is someone else suggesting that people should only support businesses who’s employees vote democrat? Does this seem like a good idea really?

My view is that Costco is using good free market techniques to ensure that they have the best qualified employees, something that will make their business succeed and provide better service to their clients. By them realizing this and moving forward in their plan, they are going to help push the market in that direction and their competitors will either have to come up with a better solution or follow.

However, from what I’ve seen from the Democratic platform over recent decades, this type of business plan wouldn’t be allowed. They would have to follow a rigid set of rules to follow, being subjected to fines if they were to try going it their own way. (do you remember the Clinton plan for imprisoning patients and doctors that did not follow their health care guidelines?)

It seems to me that they are following a free market system just as it was intended. Good for them I say!

The Republicans fail to recognize that the market has forces in it that raise wages, benefits and prices, as well as those that try to lower it. They try and artificially, arbitrarily lower it past that point by shipping labor overseas, but even there, if the market is not being manipulated (as it is in China), economic pressures would tend to push these things up to a point of equilibrium.

Market efficiency is as much about the flow of money as it’s constriction. In English, an economy can fail because people are unwilling or unable to spend. Higher wages across the culture might make payrolls more expensive, but they could also make payrolls more payable, as others who are paid well contribute to the income of the business.

For too long, economic trickery has been the primary means of economic growth. For too long, people have tried to grow companies faster than the market will allow it. For too long, Executives have voted themselves pay raises while lamenting the commencing unemployment of their workers and middle management.

They talk about creative destruction, but they misunderstand that concept: something is supposed to replace the old way of doing business. They’re even letting the electronics and software business go, in their infinite wisdom. We need a fresh perspective on business.

Thanks Carla and Dave. My brother shops at Costco and raves about it.

Traci, if you go to Costco.com and check out the warehouse locater link and type in your zipcode, it will tell you the nearest store. There are 10 in MI, but I don’t know if any are near where you live.

“You can also get information on companies that trend “blue” at BuyBlue.org”

Duh. BuyBlue was actually the link I meant to give. The “responsible shopper” link I previously gave is the one you want to get the dirt on many other issues about various corporations before giving them any money.

“I haven’t shopped at Amazon since I checked the fact that they give lots of money to the GOP. :)”

:^/ I didn’t know that. And that really stinks because occasionally it’s been very convienient. Oh well, now they’ve been added to my don’t-buy list. Thanks for the heads-up.

“Incidentally, we’re off to Powell’s books later today…a locally run, blue as blue can be, bookstore.”

:^) Don’t you love it when you don’t have to give local shopping a thought? One of my favorite things is my weekly visit to my neighborhood organic farmers market — wonderful friendly people, with no worries about whether what I’m buying is responsible or not, because everything is!

Hey Adrienne,

Watch shopping at an organic farmer’s market. You too, may be accused of being a “tree hugger” as I was on Sunday by my conservative nephew. I had never heard the term and asked him what it meant. He said it is a term used for liberals who support saving our environment. Anyone else hear this? I was completely taken aback. I asked him what was wrong with being concerned for the environment and got a vague answer about diesel trucks that pollute anyway. I guess he meant the ones that transport waste, but I couldn’t really get into a discussion with him as we were at the dinner table at my mom’s where such debating is not permitted. Sorry, I got off the topic, but your post just reminded me of the incident.

Donna,

wow, the term ‘tree-hugger’ has been around for quite some time, I’m surprised you have never heard it before. It’s a term that the environmental movement has embraced themselves (for example, www.treehuggeronline.com)

“The Chipko movement was a group of villagers in the Uttarkhand region of India who opposed commercial logging. The movement is best known for its tactic of hugging trees to prevent them being cut down. This gave rise to the term tree hugger for environmentalists. Also, it was notable in that the movement was led by women who were influenced by Gandhi.”

My view on the term is not someone who is concerned about the environment, that would include most people, including mysef. When used as a disparaging remark I think it’s more directed towards someone who politically wants to change laws to protect the environment at the expense of destroying our current quality of life or economy in the process, often times while ignoring alternate environmental facts that may actually oppose their means.

(ie, we should switch to electric cars when electricity, when garnered through the burning of coal, is a much dirtier fuel than gasoline is and much more harmful to the environment).

but, that’s just my opinion.

OOPS. sorry I was looking for Watchblog I didn’t realize I was in the the Home Shopping Network. Well, as long as I am here I need a few shirts, any ideas where to get them?

tree hugger

The Chipko movement was a group of villagers in the Uttarkhand region of India who opposed commercial logging. The movement is best known for its tactic of hugging trees to prevent them being cut down. This gave rise to the term tree hugger for environmentalists.

Oh, the list of red companies on that buyblue site is really usefull.

Hey Donna,
you wrote:
“Watch shopping at an organic farmer’s market. You too, may be accused of being a “tree hugger” as I was on Sunday by my conservative nephew.”

Next time, you might try telling him you’d much rather hug a tree than a barrel of industrial pesticide. ;^)

“I had never heard the term and asked him what it meant. He said it is a term used for liberals who support saving our environment. Anyone else hear this?”

I have — and I’m proud to rank myself among them!

“I was completely taken aback.”

Lately, I’ve taken to embracing the sneers directed at me, because nobody ever expects that, and it tends to kill all the fun they might’ve gotten out of it.

“I asked him what was wrong with being concerned for the environment and got a vague answer about diesel trucks that pollute anyway.”

But one doesn’t have to EAT a diesel truck.
And why would anyone want to make things worse than they already are, eh?

“I couldn’t really get into a discussion with him as we were at the dinner table at my mom’s where such debating is not permitted.”

My parents dinner table is ALL ABOUT debating, but the rule has always been, whoever begins shouting automatically loses their argument!
I still think that’s a good rule — and I still enjoy a good discussion while eating.

“Sorry, I got off the topic, but your post just reminded me of the incident.”

Happens all the time around here. :^) I think the WB manager only gets upset if it goes on too long.

Treehuggers also gave rise to scary movies like the Texas Chain Saw Masacre.

Traci,

You would get carded in Costco.

Here’s the statewide costco stuff:
http://www.costco.com/Warehouse/Location.aspx?country=United%20States

Traci, here are the locations in Michigan:
Michigan
Auburn Hills
Bloomfield Township
Commerce Township
Grand Rapids East
Green Oak Township
Livonia I
Livonia II
Madison Heights
Roseville
Shelby Township
Wyoming

Beagle,
you boycott Ben and Jerry’s???
I never knew how lamentable your plight was! no wonder your always cranky!

What a discovery. If the business model works, others will copy it. That is the free market. Who cares if the money they make is blue or red.

One of the first conservative ideology I read was “Two Cheers for Capitalism” by Irving Kristol. One of his main points about the free market was that it did what worked and what worked was usually better today than what was done before. What I learned in B-school was that good managers were good to their employees. The nature of producing a quality product means giving your customers what they want. Firms spend millions on marketing research to figure out what people want. This is the free market.

Too often the critics point to the people and firms that fail. In any system, half of the people and firms will be below average. You can find bad actors in any system, but consider this. The worst lapses of the free market are small potatoes compared with the government run disasters of fascism, communism and nazism, not to mention those of minor league nasties.

The problem – and it is a problem – many Democrats have is lack of understanding of the free market. I have come to understand through this blog that many of you actually believe the caricatures you draw of the free market. The fact is successful firms have to live in the marketplace where their products compete against those of all others. They compete for workers with other firms. They compete for talent. They compete to satisfy customers. Costco and the firms you listed are part of this free market. All good free marketers celebrate their success.

I buy products because they are good quality and good value. I don’t make my buying decisions based on political considerations. Any company that operates within American law is equally deserving of my business. It all depends on their products or services. When we all do that, we produce the best outcomes. That is the free market.

jack,

I think the real problem is that many conservatives don’t understand the concept of free market. They think being pro-corporation is being pro-business. They are not the same.

Also, as a liberal, I disagree with the “operating within the law” thing. There’s more to life than money and legal. What ever happened to good coporate citizen and morality?

Free market people are not against companies paying their workers a lot- we are only opposed to the government forcing its way into free enterprize and imposing its one-size-fit-all business model.

Wow, Misha. That sounds very Democratic. We like the free market, too. We like to use market forces to our advantage by empowering labor and only supporting corporations that are good to the community.

Adrienne, as an alternative to Amazon.com, you can try Barnes & Nobel.

They compete for workers with other firms. They compete for talent.

Actually Jack, it’s an employer’s market right now. Most big corporations are cutting back on salaries and benefits. HP just announced a 14,500 person layoff, and new hires will no longer be eligable for a pension plan or matching of 401(k) savings.

You’re going to come back and say that adjustments are necessary depending on the economy, but you’ll just be making my point that the free market doesn’t give a damn about people. The free market thrives on cheap labor.

And I think many Republicans really don’t understand free market economics,

Are you or is someone else suggesting that people should only support businesses who’s employees vote democrat? Does this seem like a good idea really?

Seems to me, Rhinehold, that in a free market, people can shop wherever they want for whatever reason sounds good to them. Are you proposing we regulate where people can shop?

Excellent article Carla, and welcome to Watchblog. It’s possible for a company to be profitable and fair. Too bad so many in business are so greedy. BTW, Costco always has the cheapest gasoline, too.

Julia~
Thanks for the info!!!

steve smith~
Yes, that is probably a good assumption! By the way…..How are you doing? I recall you saying something about a terminal illness? You are a new member of my prayers and I enjoy reading your posts very much! Take care of yourself…you have a lot of friends here on watchblog!!!

Traci,

Thanks for your kind words. Yes I have Emphysema which requires me to use oxygen 24/7. Also have a variety of medications and breathing treatments. I am doing OK. I enjoy the Watchblog thing even though I don’t really know very much and sometimes feel that my next post will be the one to get me kicked off. I enjoy teasing you about getting carded and, your responses.

AP - thanks for the Barnes and Nobel tip!

Dave:
“I think the real problem is that many conservatives don’t understand the concept of free market.”

Nor do they understand the concept of Fair Market — being a good citizen of the world — something that can often have truly enormous diplomatic and political ramifications.

“They think being pro-corporation is being pro-business. They are not the same.”

Nail on the head there, Dave.
Has anyone else seen the Canadian documentary “The Corporation”? It’s a fascinating film that clearly spells out the many thing that are wrong with the cut-throat corporate mindset in today’s world. I rented it from Netflix a month ago, and I highly recommend it to all of you. Even Jack would like it, because they interview many famous people who are the epitome of conservative.

“Also, as a liberal, I disagree with the “operating within the law” thing. There’s more to life than money and legal. What ever happened to good coporate citizen and morality?”

Exactly. I’ve said things rather similar to this to Jack before, but he doesn’t seem to understand the importance of this — or perhaps the underlying reality is, he just doesn’t want to bother himself by thinking about such things, period.
Fact is, you’ve got to have a conscience and a generous heart to be a Liberal — but that doesn’t automatically prevent one from being a great success in business. Indeed, I think it can often lead to greater creativity, and the kind of success that bridges many levels.
The Liberal way of thinking and being ADDS TO the meaning of life, because we automatically attempt to take morality and responsibility into consideration. Theirs on the other hand, subtracts from the meaning of life because it is based mainly on greed and far too often, a puerile irresponsibility. Now, I’m aware that this probably sounds very harsh, but being both a raging Liberal and a woman who happens to be very familiar with the business world, I also know this to be a glaringly obvious truth.

I think it is interesting and a bit disturbing how liberals include all good things in their ideology (sometimes) expostfacto and attribute all the bad things to conservatives.

Most free market businesses behave well most of the time. They have given us the highest standard of living in history. In a free market (which I always hasten to add includes rule of law and some government regulation and management) firms compete with each other for workers, markets, talent etc. Firms that are successful in the long term satisfy the needs of their various constituencies. Shareholders want to make money, but to make money they have to sell to people who don’t have to buy. In order to make money, they have to live in communities. And don’t forget, shareholders are also citizens and close to half of all Americans are shareholders these days.

The system is not fool proof. Bad things happen, even as bad things happen in any society. But the market is resilient. Liberals look to every failure of business as some kind of conservative plot. They are not. Ken Lay gave money to Democrats and Republicans. Crooks are present everywhere. They hide most easily in places without free markets.

On the other side, we have failure of governments. If you don’t like market, consider the alternative of government run enterprise. We have the trivial examples of various phone companies etc, or some really comprehensive ones. Think of the Nazis, communists, various Latin American dictators etc. They don’t believe in the market either. In fact, for a “businessman” to really be destructive, he has to have the support of government.

To steal the phrase - to err is human, but to really screw up you need government support.

So it is not that I love big business. I just fear big government too. We are not kept safe by the good will of either, but by their limited power over us.

As a believer in the free market, I am willing to tolerate any legal business practice. I like some more than others, but I recognize my limitations to judge. What makes me conservative is not that I have no heart, but rather that I know the limitations of my own understanding and that of the government bureaucrats that represent me. Those of you who support more government regulation, think who you are giving the power to. You all are not too fond of Bush. Remember, he is the elected leader. If you give power to government, he is the one you will be empowering.

The most prosperous countries are those with the freest markets. This is a broad category, but the U.S. BTW is not the freest market. Place like Hong Kong and even Denmark and the UK currently best us on the Index of Economic freedom.

The business of the world is business. Clever power seekers promise to protect us. I think we are better off with the power to protect ourselves.

Thanks Adrienne,

I’ll keep my eyes open for “The Corporation”. I don’t do Netfilx (yet). I too like to shop local when I can and the shop in town center is working hard for our continued business.

jack,

Interesting persepectives. You state that you believe in caveat emptor “we are better off with the power to protect ourselves” and laisser faire “The most prosperous countries are those with the freest markets”.

But, how far back do you roll those oppresive gov’t regulations? Does that mean you believe we should roll back consumer protection rules? Do you think if you are electrocuted by a defective toaster then your family should have no recourse beyond a refund and maybe some minor compensatory payment? If your father dies from a new drug with known but undeclared side effects it’s just a “roll of the dice”? If your child gets cancer from the toxic waste the manufacturer ddown the street dumped, the best you can do is stop buying their products? Should Ebers and Kozlowski(sic) have been let free?

How far back do you go? The only people I trust less than Big gov’t is Big business.

I’m curious if you are aware of the ClintonGore National Performance Review? Their goal was to reduce the quantity of regulations. In some cases they succeeded in reducing them by 80% or more.

LMFAO

Carla, with all due respect, you clearly do not understand the situation.

“Bucking the Wall Street analysts, Costco’s stock price has increased 10 percent in the last 12 months. WalMart? Down 5 percent.”

If you want to measure the overall success of the stock you need to start from the IPO. Looking at that you can see that Wal-Mart’s stock has already advanced several thousand percent whereas Costco is nowhere near that. Now that Wal Mart is a blue chip stock, the days of its stellar growth are behind it. Costco only appears to be outperforming Wal-Mart because it’s a newer company with a newer stock.

“WalMart is losing.”

Again, that is because it has already risen to the rank of blue chip. If you look at the big picture, Wal-Mart as a company has been far more successful than Costco. As a company, Wal-Mart is still more profitable and efficient with it’s money than Costco. Here are some statistics:

Return on Equity: Costco: 12.51%— Wal Mart: 23.58%

Profit Margin: Costco: 1.96%— Wal Mart: 3.63%

Market Capitalization ($): Costco: 22 Billion— Wal Mart: 208.31 Billion

As you can see, while currently not the better stock performer, Wal-Mart is indeed the larger, more profitable, and more efficient company.

Dave

This is the confusion I am talking about.

As I understand it the people you mentioned engaged in fraud. Fraud is illegal. It has been for some time. The system worked properly against them. They did not fulfill their contractual obligations. This is something conservatives take very seriously

As for the caveat emptor, it depends. Some things are clearly negligent, others less so and compensation should be commensurate with the losses. Drugs are an interesting problem. They are highly regulated, but it is possible to have mistakes and for people to take them in incorrect ways. Drugs are usually risky and have side effects. It is best if you don’t need them, but if you do you can’t always expect perfect results. Even something simple like aspirin will cause stomach ulcers in some people if they take it a lot. So we have to do case by case. I would not compensate someone who got ulcers from taking aspirin, since it is a well known side effect and evidently unavoidable statistically (i.e. some people will be affected no matter what).

The other problem is what drugs are NOT available because of regulation. We don’t know that in many cases, but I will give you one. In Europe sun block has an ingredient that blocks the UV in a way that also protects against skin damage and wrinkling. This ingredient is not available in the U.S. because it is not improved. I have to ask my daughter to bring back some from Europe.

I am drifting from the subject. Some things like fraud have always been illegal. Some food and drug regulations are required. But they tend to get out of hand.

Clinton was generally good for business. I liked Clinton for that reason. Although we have to be clear that reducing regulation is a constant fight. Regulations are like fast growing weeds. Welfare reform and NAFTA were great things that happened during Clinton’s term. But most Democrats don’t agree enthusiastically with me on these points. Democrats can be good for business too. And Republicans can be bad. My observation is that in the general package Republicans are better. Most business groups seem to agree.

Zeek,

Wal-Mart is truly a giant profitable company. It also has a coporate personality that would make Sam Walton vomit. I only shopped there twice, once before I knew better, once when I was in an unfamiliar place w/ limited options.

jack,

I’m glad we seem to agree that unecessary regulation is a burden, whereas protection from untruthful behavior, corporate or personal, makes sense to have.

re: drugs. It takes time to prove the safety and efficacy of medicines. Modern medicines are more and more powerful in their actions in the human body and side effects are likely and sometimes severe. The problem is when pharmaceutical companies hide or misstate data concerning problems with their drugs. BTW, the regulations for FDA are not that long. It’s the supporting documentations and interpretaions and guidances that’re heavy. Thank lawyers, industy and liability, for that. Too bad we can’t always trust businesses to “do the right thing”, only the profitable thing.

re: Republicans being “better” for business. I agree, that used to be true. Not any more. Pro-corporation is not pro-business.

Seems to me, Rhinehold, that in a free market, people can shop wherever they want for whatever reason sounds good to them. Are you proposing we regulate where people can shop?

AP, Perfect Liberal Response!

I said nothing at all about limiting choices or regulation. All I asked is if that was really a good idea. I never said someone COULDN’T shop based off of that criteria, only that it was a blindingly stupid idea.

Have fun with your limited service/quality options for the sake of political power!

Rhinehold,

Typical conservative response! Thanks for highlighting the selfish short sighted hypocracy of the right. Keep going to Wal Mart to save a dime and lose a job. Makes good sense to me too.

I’m guessing you think it was stupid of the christian right to boycott TV advertisers in shows they didn’t like?

Dave,

“I only shopped there twice, once before I knew better, once when I was in an unfamiliar place w/ limited options.”

First off, that hardly matters. Second, out of curiosity, where DO you shop then?

Zeek,

First, it does matterwhere you spend your money. It makes the buyer guilty by association to ignore the predatory business practices of a retailer. It’s another matter to not know better or have no choice.

Second, our shopping habits (as if it means anything to you): We focus on local stores to do our shopping for anything we can and avoid the malls and chains. We rarely “shop” as a recreational activity and almost always have specific purchases in mind when we do go since, as children of the 60’s, we think consumerism is closer to a disease than a value adding element of republican capitalism. Generally, we use the weekly farmers market, Trader Joe’s and a family owned local food chain for groceries and COSTCO for bulk items. We try to stick with the more responsible compaines (e.g. LL Bean, Patagonia, REI…) for generic clothing. For formal wear we use local stores with local tailors &/or designers ($$$!) or we go to the more responsible name brand outlets (Polo, van Heusen, …). We do buy “Made in USA” where possible and affordable but thanks to recent trade policy decisions that’s becoming pretty damn hard.

How about you? Besides Wal Mart and the Salvation Army outlet that is.