Democrats & Liberals: Archives

Ya I agree

Let ‘im have it

talk about your totally over the top right wing tirade utterly devoid of logic, rational assessment or constructive critique…Wow!

Jimmie, why not consider to moving to China where they put their laws and prisons where their mouth is and arrest anyone who has constructive criticism of their government’s wrongdoing. You should feel very at home there, since you intolerance of anyone here with a critical word obviously preserves your entirely absent zen state.

JIMMIE,

why dont you move to china since you hate EVERYTHING about america.

So do this mean you are over-joyed that one of our own troops was beaten to the point of brain-damage by OUR OWN TROOPS?!?!? Get a grip man, just because we’re acknowledging a SERIOUS MISHANDLING of events doesn’t mean we hate “everything about America.”

maybe we should let EVERYONE out of all jails and move all troops back to american soil.

This guy wasn’t a prisoner. He was A FREAKING AMERICAN SOLDIER. I’m surprised you aren’t outraged at this.

then open the borders to anyone who wants into america no matter what. They say they are here to kill americans… fine let them in. lets give everyone free healthcare. oh wait we also have to lower the taxes on everyone but the “rich” and “evil coporations”.

What the…? This has nothing to do with American Soldiers beating up another American Soldier.

lets see.. lets out law all federal justice agencies and any thing that can hurt a tree or anamial. we dont need meat or wood.

oh and only organic veiggies and wild caught fish. oh that will upset greenpeace so no fish(might hurt the fishes feelings).

no comercial cattle or farming. big bussiness is always evil!

most important.. if it fells good…do it!

oh we need to make all drugs leagel also so the crack fans dont get upset.

and anyone who doesnt think this way has to live in “camps” in the “red states”.

I can’t believe you are completely ignoring the issue at hand.

William, I had to laugh though at the quoted redundant “traumatic brain injury”. Aren’t all brain injuries traumatic?

JIMMIE-
Why don’t I reply with a bunch of lame, cliched old saws about Republicans? Oh! I know!

Because I got better ways to reason with you than that.

Let me throw something your way: What if that prisoner is one we needed to get information out of to prevent a terrorist attack? Well, wouldn’t massive brain damage put American lives at risk here?

You can talk oh-so-patriotically about how right it is to torture America’s enemies, but the reality is we are a country with certain rights enshrined in our culture, and we will either have to form a tolerance for such behavior, which will be a moral failure, or we will lose our stomach for any kind of extreme measures, which will be a strategical failure.

The truth is, to use these means when we really have to use them, they must not become common practice, even if terrorists are the targets. We must be able to present ourselves to the rest of the world as being consistently supportive of human rights, with the occasional torture session as a little secret when it has to be done. Otherwise, we become a mirror image of the bastards we’re supposed to fight, and we endanger our own ability to resist such behavior in our own society.

Stephen, don’t encourage the misconception that the beating was of a terrorist… because it wasn’t.

Poor guy.

I hope this is an exception rather than the rule. Being unruly one would suspect the pepper spray to be enough. These guys sound like they Rodney King’ed the poor soldier.

I suppose he’s un-American because he is suing.

I still don’t suspect torture going on at this time at GITMO. I think, with the spotlight on the situation, pushing the limits has probably reduced. That said, it sounds like there may have been some problems in the past.

If these guys at GITMO are all guilty as charged I still don’t think they should be tortured. Shot maybe….AFTER the evidence is examined. We may never know if they are all guilty or innocent (I suspect most are guilty as hell, but there could be a few that were accidentally picked up in a raid).

To those who call all criticism of the Government Un-American….get a grip. We all support our troops….yes, even the left. We question some of the leadership. This is America. I don’t know many government officials on either side of the isle I would “blindly” trust. Most poloticians are out for one thing…to keep their job. If these means lying or hiding the truth, then they will.

Most folks don’t hold anyone’s rights above our own. However, we don’t ignore rights simply because the other party is not American. We are all God’s Children. Some aren’t very good children but we are all still His children. We, the UNITED STATES should be the better, the civilized, the example to everyone. Revenge is not ours it is the Lords. We should seek Justice, not revenge. Justice usually involves weighing evidence against facts and making a judgement. That would be nice to see in the GITMO case. If the evidence shows guilt then continue detainment or execute.

What we are always lacking is balance. Bad things happen. When they do, we investigate them. When we find evidence of wrongdoing we prosecute. If people are found guilty, they are punished.

It was obviously not a policy to injure American soldiers. This was an accident or an individual acting improperly.

What bothers many people - and the reason they keep on citing individual cases - is that they are not finding the “right” people guilty. When a guard drops a Koran in Guantanamo, these guys want to blame George Bush.

Crimes are committed every day. If we describe them in detail, most are terrible. Something like 50,000 American die each year in auto accidents. If we show pictures, they are appalling. Each individual case is preventable. But collectively, they are not.

In the Washington Metro area alone last week, several people were killed in auto accidents on Interstate Highways. All of them could have been avoided if the Bush Administration had just taken proper care of the nation’s highways.

William:
“Baker’s now suing the Army for $15 million. I say support the troops, let him have it…”

Definitely.

“and maybe, just maybe, we should be re-thinking the policies being used on real prisoners.”

It seems the only way we’ll ever get that done is to remove the bastards who thought up those policies.

Jimmie:
“anyone who doesnt think this way has to live in “camps” in the “red states”.”

Looks like some are already camped way, way far out, in some kind of a state…

hey, what do you expect? the military is hella dumb when it combs to giving you disability benefits…..(and this is comin from an air force brat)

Tom L,

I suppose he’s un-American because he is suing.

Actually, that’s VERY American.

Jack,

Each individual case is preventable. But collectively, they are not.

Hm, that’s an interesting way of looking at it. But then, if collectively the cases are not preventable, then is that to say that the occurence of one event makes it harder to prevent the occurence of a different event?

That was a stupid experiment.

However, if Spc Sean Baker volunteered for this dangerous suicide mission, knowing the potential risks, and was not ordered to do it, then it is very unfortunate, and he should get treatment and (disability if justified) like any soldier wounded in battle. But not $15 million.

I say, install survielance cameras everywhere (some visible, some hidden), and tell everyone about it, and that will cut down on misbehaviour.

Transparency is always the key to accountability and responsibility.

d.a.n,

The military is even less of a fan of transparency than is the government. Also, it is a lot harder to make the military transparent because you have to go through the government.

Spc Sean Baker volunteered for a training mission to determine procedures to deal with an uncooperative detainee. He was tracigally injured in the performance of his duty and anyone’s heart who doesn’t go out to him has no compassion.

I advocate that he gets compensated for the physical and/or emotional damage done to him. It was not a “stupid experiment”, on the other hand it was a necessary one. At least we do not practice beheadings and corpse burning.
That said, there have been a large number of posters expressing Democratic and Liberal views about the treatment of the detainees. This incident would appear to be proof that the administration is trying very hard to determine what is the best way to deal with the uncooperative detainees.

I have not seen or heard any reports of similar treatment of other “real” detainees. I believe that Spc Baker was injured in the course of service/duty to his country. Actually “above and beyond” would be more accurate since he was a volunteer.

The question here is what threshold policy and and common practice at Gitmo demanded before such extreme physical trauma was inflicted on a prisoner (or in this case, a soldier pretending to be one for training purposes.)

We do not need prison guards on a hair-trigger, fueled by understandable rage against the terrorists into unacceptable brutality against prisoners under their power. Our justification for the things we do have got to be more reasonable than just “the terrorists do worst” or “we have to do everything to save American lives” We have to stop confusing doing the most to help our country with doing what’s best.

jimmie,

the point is you want to give 15 million to a solider who did his job.

What? Get the crap beaten out of him? What the hell sort of job is that?

if its so terrible than have the dnc write him the check for the 15 mill. as a tax payer i dont think its worth 1 million.

Perhaps you don’t value your mental health, but the rest of us do. Many people would sacrifice well over 15 million dollars to not suffer from seizures, blackouts, headaches, insomnia and psychological problems for the rest of their lives.

in calling for this you are putting pricetags on peoples lives.

As opposed to what? Saying their lives are worthless?

what makes this guys life worth 15 million?

How do you determine the value of life? Quite frankly, I think asking for 15 million is rather ridiculous, but the fact that something like this could happen… Well, something needs to be fixed that’s for sure.

the fact that you can use it to make america look bad.

Why bother when Bush does that as his full-time job?

I have not seen or heard any reports of similar treatment of other “real” detainees.

Here are some “highlights” from just this year with some context:

December 25, 2002 - The Washington Post reports: “‘If you don’t violate someone’s human rights some of the time, you probably aren’t doing your job,’ said one official who has supervised the capture and transfer of accused terrorists. ‘I don’t think we want to be promoting a view of zero tolerance on this.’”

June 2, 2003 - U.S. Senator Patrick Leahy writes to National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice that, “unnamed Administration officials have suggested in several press accounts that detainees held by the United States have been subjected to “stress and duress” interrogation techniques, including beating, lengthy sleep and food deprivation.” He asks the administration if such techniques are being employed and urges a clear statement that cruel, inhuman degrading treatment of detainees will not be tolerated.

June 25, 2003 - William Haynes responds to Senator Leahy stating, “it is the policy of the United States to comply with all its legal obligations in its treatment of detainees.” For the first time, Haynes states that it is U.S. policy “to treat all detainees and conduct all interrogations, wherever they may occur” in a manner consistent with U.S. obligations under the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatment. He further clarified that the term “cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment” means any treatment that would be prohibited in the United States by the Fifth, Eighth, and/or Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution a standard that would clearly forbid most of the “stress and duress” techniques reported in the media, as well as degrading treatment later revealed in Iraq. At the same time, Haynes added that “it would not be appropriate to catalogue the interrogation techniques used by U.S. personnel thus we cannot comment on specific cases or practices.”

At least 108 people have died in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan, most of them violently, according to government data provided to The Associated Press. Roughly a quarter of those deaths have been investigated as possible abuse by U.S. personnel. CBS News March 16, 2005

The treatment, intended to soften up detainees for interrogations, involved hours-long physical exercise sessions, hoods and beatings at the same time guards at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad were carrying out similar tactics. […] Army officials yesterday also released the first full accounting of 16 closed detainee homicide investigations and eight open cases from Afghanistan and Iraq, a list showing that half of the cases — 12 — occurred in U.S. detention facilities. (Washington Post, March 26, 2005) source

Previously secret court testimony indicates that an Iraqi general imprisoned by U.S. forces was badly bruised and may have been severely beaten two days before he died of suffocation during interrogation. […] During the interrogation, Army prosecutors said, Mowhoush was put headfirst into a sleeping bag, wrapped with electrical cord and knocked down before the soldiers sat and stood on him. The cause of death was determined to be suffocation. (Washington Post April 3, 2005) source

The next day, Wali — who apparently heard that military personnel were looking for him — surrendered at the front gate. Passaro, who was assigned to interrogate suspected terrorists detained by CIA and special operations forces, met with Wali on June 19 and 20. McNamara has said that at the time, Passaro believed Wali “knew the locations of more rockets and land mines” and wanted to extract information that he thought would save lives. On June 21, Wali was pronounced dead in his cell at the base. (Washington Post April 13, 2005) source

A leaked 2,000-page report into the deaths of two detainees details systematic and routine mistreatment at the Bagram military base, 40 miles (64km) north of Kabul. Each man had spent most of his five days’ captivity shackled to the ceiling or wall of his cell, a technique that has since been labelled by the US military as a criminal assault. They were also subjected to relentless beatings, particularly to their legs, which coroners blamed for their deaths. In one case, the guards and interrogators believed that their prisoner was not guilty of the assault on an American base for which he was blamed. But the mistreatment appeared to be habitual, the work of young, ill-trained and bored recruits prone to violence. Many of the individuals involved in the two cases in December 2002 and January 2003 were redeployed to the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. They included one interrogator known variously as “Monster†and “the King of Tortureâ€. At Abu Ghraib he was fined and demoted for forcing an Iraqi woman to strip during questioning. The Times Online May 21, 2005

My emphasis.

Zeek,
The post office now uses cameras.
That cut down on stolen mail, and sent some bad apples to prison.
I don’t see why they just don’t install cameras everywhere, and let everyone know about it.

Steve Smith,
If Spc Sean Baker was misled about this mission, then he should be compensated. However, if he knew the dangers, and he volunteered, then I think it should be treated just like a battle casualty. I don’t understand why the military would do this, when there are other ways to protect prisoners from abuses. I do feel badly for Spc Sean Baker. I think everyone is sympathetic, but not to the tune of $15 million, unless he was lied to, or grossly mislead, and did not know the risks for the mission he volunteered for. However, I don’t see how he could not understand the risks. Many brave Americans have made such sacrifices on suicide type missions, but they didn’t sue for $millions afterward.

Spc Sean Baker should receive treatment (and disability if needed) just as if he was wounded in battle. But, why is he suing for $15 million if he volunteered and knew the risks? Is that really the right thing to do? What about the guys severly wounded in battle? Shouldn’t they all get $15 million too? If it were possible, that would be great. If Spc Sean Baker gets $15 million, then I think all wounded veterans and families of the killed troops should too. For the estimated 20,000 wounded and killed troops, that would cost $300 billion ( 20,000 x $15,000,000). That’s about equal to the annual military budget.

Jimmie:

Are you really Ann Coulter? You ought to stop using these pseudonyms, and write under your own name. If not, then you suffer from the same type brain damage as she has. Utter irrationality!

Hey William, & Jimmie:

Just thought I’d give you my 2 bits worth:

First Off William thanks for a wonderful well timed article.

If you don’t know about me, let me inform you. Earlier this year I was medically retired from active duty why you ask? For the sake of brevity
I will not go into detail…I have a stage 4 GBM, in laymans terms. That’s a malignent Brain tumor. Yes, I am dieing. I am not bitter, and please don’t say how sorry you are to hear this, I do not want or deserve your pity.

Jimmie…What qualifies you or any other “taxpayer” to put a $$ value on this soldier’s or any other’s life. Fact is he did what every soldier is expected to do when asked, that’s right he volunteered to be an example so that other soldier’s could be trained and his LEADERS let him down. SPC Baker showed more leadership than anyone else in his “Chain of Command”, TOO BAD THEY DIDN’T FOLLOW HIS EXAMPLE! Why do I say that? First thing you learn when assuming your duties as a Non-Commissioned Officer(NCO), You are responsible for all of your soldiers (good, bad, or otherwise) in your section, squad, platoon… etc, The number one thing you are responsible for is your soldier’s Well Being, THAT INCLUDES “SAFETY”. That SPC, deserved, in fact was OWED, that safety. What Gives you the right to deny him that after the fact? This SPC is a Gulf War Vet, He VOLUNTEERED and was accepted back into the fold of what I considered to be the “greatest Brotherhood on the planet”, I now hang my head in shame. All because the actions of a few, make me sick.

d.a.n.
That was a stupid experiment.

However, if Spc Sean Baker volunteered for this dangerous suicide mission, knowing the potential risks, and was not ordered to do it, then it is very unfortunate, and he should get treatment and (disability if justified) like any soldier wounded in battle. But not $15 million.

I say, install survielance cameras everywhere (some visible, some hidden), and tell everyone about it, and that will cut down on misbehaviour.

Transparency is always the key to accountability and responsibility.

Posted by: d.a.n at June 19, 2005 10:23 PM .

d.a.n.

YOU NEVER CEASE TO AMAZE ME! DID WE READ THE SAME ARTICLE?

Steve Smith & Stephen Daugherty:

IMO Thanks for being the voice of reason in a sea of idiots.

As Always,
Wayne

d.a.n.

What kind of jerk are you? I mean where in the article did it state “Oh, by volunteering to PORTRAY this prisoner you waive any claim for injuries incurred”. Where were his supervisors when this assault was taking place? I am sure, they were NOT doing their jobs. Otherwise we wouldn’t be reading this thread now would we? At a minimum, his supervisor’s need to be relieved of duty and given “Relief For Cause”, NCOER’s or OER’s, and Dismissal from the Army, if the highest ranking individual is any one above the rank of SFC, I suggest you invoke all of your rights that UCMJ allows. One thing I am sure of, I’ll bet they (The seniors)will hope that defense council provides them with something they failed to provide SPC Baker. Supervision!

Jimmy said a mouthfull. Some of us are camped out in blue states. Just turn around and
Look behind you. Lib’s make personal attacks on anyone that states things as they are.
And not some make believe bullshit.They can write a whole page, and say nothing.

Steve Smith,

I have not seen or heard any reports of similar treatment of other “real” detainees.

Here are some reports from the past few months:

At least 108 people have died in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan, most of them violently, according to government data provided to The Associated Press. Roughly a quarter of those deaths have been investigated as possible abuse by U.S. personnel. CBS News March 16, 2005

The treatment, intended to soften up detainees for interrogations, involved hours-long physical exercise sessions, hoods and beatings at the same time guards at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad were carrying out similar tactics. […] Army officials yesterday also released the first full accounting of 16 closed detainee homicide investigations and eight open cases from Afghanistan and Iraq, a list showing that half of the cases — 12 — occurred in U.S. detention facilities. (Washington Post, March 26, 2005) source

Previously secret court testimony indicates that an Iraqi general imprisoned by U.S. forces was badly bruised and may have been severely beaten two days before he died of suffocation during interrogation. […] During the interrogation, Army prosecutors said, Mowhoush was put headfirst into a sleeping bag, wrapped with electrical cord and knocked down before the soldiers sat and stood on him. The cause of death was determined to be suffocation. (Washington Post April 3, 2005) source

The next day, Wali — who apparently heard that military personnel were looking for him — surrendered at the front gate. Passaro, who was assigned to interrogate suspected terrorists detained by CIA and special operations forces, met with Wali on June 19 and 20. McNamara has said that at the time, Passaro believed Wali “knew the locations of more rockets and land mines” and wanted to extract information that he thought would save lives. On June 21, Wali was pronounced dead in his cell at the base. (Washington Post April 13, 2005) source

A leaked 2,000-page report into the deaths of two detainees details systematic and routine mistreatment at the Bagram military base, 40 miles (64km) north of Kabul. Each man had spent most of his five days’ captivity shackled to the ceiling or wall of his cell, a technique that has since been labelled by the US military as a criminal assault. They were also subjected to relentless beatings, particularly to their legs, which coroners blamed for their deaths. In one case, the guards and interrogators believed that their prisoner was not guilty of the assault on an American base for which he was blamed. But the mistreatment appeared to be habitual, the work of young, ill-trained and bored recruits prone to violence. Many of the individuals involved in the two cases in December 2002 and January 2003 were redeployed to the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. They included one interrogator known variously as “Monster” and “the King of Torture”. At Abu Ghraib he was fined and demoted for forcing an Iraqi woman to strip during questioning. The Times Online May 21, 2005

My emphasis.

It says something that Republicans use the UnAmerican and UnPatriotic line rather than face the Issues involved. The Beating of a US Soldier.

I suppose it makes sense that the Right would be okay with this. The Right cut the Veteran’s Budget after all. The expense of treating those who Serve has never been a priority with Republicans. That’s why they support GI’s getting tortured. They would probably have supported John McCain’s torture by the Vietnamese. Republicans LOVE torturing people. Even their own Enlistedmen.

It was probably the Soldier’s fault he was beaten. He probably thought he was under the Geneva Conventions. That’s what you get for watching Fox News.

Ted:

Nice to see you approving what happened to that US Soldier. It is just as they are after all.

Wayne,

Calling someone a jerk is critiquing the messenger, not the message. Please pull it back a bit.

Lib’s make personal attacks on anyone that states things as they are. And not some make believe bullshit.They can write a whole page, and say nothing.

This is equally true of the other side. You don’t have to look far on Watchblog to see conservatives calling liberals traitors and worse without saying anything substantial.

This makes you feel good. I’m sure he was yelling and speaking English when they went over the top with the beating. I’m sure he got pretty scared and tried to tell them. These kids went crazy on him. Thats the scary part.
I Think I remember a study that said 65% of Marines(this was at least 10 yrs ago) if ordered would knowingly fire on US citizens. This scared the hell out of me. No sense of history…Kent State.
The part that really bugs me is the change in supervisory acceptance.This crap is obviously the norm there.
I was a US Army MP for 8 yrs. We were pretty sure about a few things, and one of them was don’t purposely beat the prisoners. You may be one someday.

Hey Jimbo,
Too bad Sean wasn’t your son or brother….That would have had you thinking differently…

And while you shrug your shoulders, ‘cause thats usually what I get when I confront you morons with that thought, think (if you’re capable) of this….

What does Pat Tillman’s family think about HIS decision to volunteer to go to Afghanistan?

wayne wrote: d.a.n.

What kind of jerk are you?

wayne,
I feel badly for Spc Sean Baker. But, why not punish those responsible, instead of always making the tax payers pay? Put the guilty ones in jail and make them pay restitution, and quit piling everything on the tax payers.

d.a.n.

YOU NEVER CEASE TO AMAZE ME! DID WE READ THE SAME ARTICLE?

wayne,
If you know your guards are beating prisoners, then why put one of your own soldiers in harms way? I stand by what I said: It was a stupid experiment. His commanders were foolish, and that is a fact. I’m not faulting Spc Sean Baker, despite many attempts by some here to characterize it that way. And, if you read what I said, if Spc Sean Baker was misled or lied to about it, then that’s an entirely different matter. So, please don’t try to paint me as something I’m not.

It is apparent to me that some on this blog are permitted to critique the messenger, instead of the message and get away with it, and some are banned. What’s up with that?

d.a.n,

I don’t see why they just don’t install cameras everywhere, and let everyone know about it.

Remember how I said the military doesn’t like transparency?

jimmie,

you hate bush…we all get that.

Well then, you’re all wrong. I don’t hate Bush, he seems like a nice guy. I’m just saying he’s making our country look pretty bad to other nations (which he is).

if hes so stupid then how did he alone manage to “lie” to the entire plant and make everyone believe we should take sadam out?

Bush has done some stupid things, just like the rest of us. That doesn’t make him a stupid person and I wasn’t calling him stupid anyways.

the “Perhaps you don’t value your mental health, but the rest of us do” comment is a personal attack and a HATE CRIME to the millions of americans suffering from any form of mental illness.

As opposed to you saying “if its so terrible than have the dnc write him the check for the 15 mill. as a tax payer i dont think its worth 1 million.” Funny, it seems more of hate crime to put less than a $1 million value on someone’s mental health than me saying most of us value our mental health.

the point was/is that the poor girl in floridas life needed to end for the husbands sake.

Actually Terri Schiavo wasn’t really the point at all.

this kid gets messed uo doing a dangerious job and we give him 15 million bucks?

Your short-selling the damage. Seizures, blackouts, insomnia and psychological problems are more than “messed up.” In any event, he has the right to sue. Whether or not he gets a settlement will be up to a court of law.

d.a.n,

Others have indicated that Baker should be entitiled to $15 million. I am not among them. While I indicated in my post my inference to “compensated” was to a fair and equitible
settlement.

Aldous indicates erroneously IMO..

“It was probably the Soldier’s fault he was beaten. He probably thought he was under the Geneva Conventions. That’s what you get for watching Fox News.”

This would qualify as an assumption for which there is no way to support with fact.

“The expense of treating those who Serve has never been a priority with Republicans. That’s why they support GI’s getting tortured. They would probably have supported John McCain’s torture by the Vietnamese. Republicans LOVE torturing people. Even their own Enlistedmen.”

First we hear from the Democrats/Liberals that it is a Republican war, only Republicans are and/or should fight it, etc. now, the above. Republicans LOVE torturing people is a broad stroke characterization of all Republicans and is simply untrue.

Message such as those identified as quotes above make no attempt to discuss the issue at hand but are simply accusations, not a one based in supported fact that Republicans collectively meet the alleged criteria claimed.

It amazes me that almost every article which is written to promote dicussion of any topic winds up being nothing more than a “smash and discredit Republican forum”.

In this thread alone Republicans and/or the administration are liars, we steal, we hate, we are responsible for traffic accidents and deaths and stupidity is also mentioned.

How great it would be if we could simply address the issues. Agressively to be sure but, the issues.

d.a.n,

“It is apparent to me that some on this blog are permitted to critique the messenger, instead of the message and get away with it, and some are banned. What’s up with that?”

I’ve noticed this, too. It’s not uncommon for the “liberals are idiots/conservatives are morons” rhetoric to become “you’re an idiot/moron because you’re liberal/conservative”.

Usually, violations aren’t dealt with unless they are continuous and disruptive. That’s probably a good thing.

Baker, a Gulf War veteran who reenlisted after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, was medically retired in April 2004. He said the assault left him with seizures, blackouts, headaches, insomnia and psychological problems.

In the lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Lexington, Ky., Baker asked the Army to reinstate him in a position that would accommodate his medical condition. He said the Army put him on medical retirement against his wishes.

“Somebody has to step up to serve, and I still want to serve,” Baker said Friday in a telephone interview from his home in Georgetown, Ky. “There’s some task somewhere I can do in the Army.”

I do believe the military should have accomadated Baker, who was willing to continue to serve his country.

Spc Sean Baker should receive treatment, disability income, and the guards that beat him should be arrested, put in prison, and made to pay restitution, and Bakers commanders, that foolishly endangered his life should also be arrested and forced to pay restitution to Spc Sean Baker.

Spc Sean Baker was injured in the line of duty.
All soldiers injured in the line of duty should receive medical treatment and disability (if disabled as Spc Sean Baker now is).

Just because some say he shouldn’t receive $15 million from the military, some people want to characterize that opinion as demonic and heartless?

Don’t forget the thousands of other soldiers injured in the line of duty. Thousands of other soldiers were also injured in battle. If Spc Sean Baker is entitled to $15 million, why aren’t the other troops? Personally, I think they all troops injured in the line of duty, should receive generous packages (as generous as possible) for their sacrifices.

So, it’s not fair to mischaracterize those that question the $15 million (to be paid by taxpayers) as traitors, heartless, morons, unsympathetic, or jerks. Those responsible (the guards and commanders) should be punished and held accountable to pay restitution! Focus on the guilty, and make them pay!

Just to follow up on an earlier comment:

William, I had to laugh though at the quoted redundant “traumatic brain injury”. Aren’t all brain injuries traumatic? Posted by: David R. Remer at June 19, 2005 09:04 PM

There certainly is a silliness to the phrase, but in this context, “traumatic brain injury” is a technical phrase — meant to imply that the injury was severe enough to result in unconsciousness. So if I trip and fall in the kitchen, hit my head on the floor and have a headache, that could be considered a “brain injury.” But if the injury is substantial enough to result in unconsciousness (like from a motor vehicle accident), it enters the realm of “traumatic brain injury.”

I really liked Steve Smith’s comments about this incident. But what I find troubling is the apparent pattern of abusive incidents that are being described. The sheer number of incidents seems to suggest that this is more than just isolated “bad apples” with a reckless disregard for human life.

I’m reminded, actually, of the prison studies done by Phillip Zimardo at Stanford. Anyone remember those (think Psych 101)? Basically, they randomly assigned college students into either “prisoner” or “guard” roles. Several days into the experiment, they had to call it off because the guards had come to behave so inhumanely towards the “prisoners.” The experiment showed how powerful someone’s perception of their “role” can be in influencing their behavior.

If that can happen with college kids that knew each other (people mostly from the same culture, etc.), then think about how powerful an impact this could have on the soldiers down in GITMO.

It would be my suspicion that we’re partly dealing with a lack of adequate training (psychologically) for the soldiers in doing their roles. I would also suspect that the psychological pressure is enormous, given the national security implications of some of the people being held prisoner down there.

I personally don’t think that the Bush administration was so stupid as to condone the use of clear-cut torture in working with these prisoners. But (and here’s the rub) I do worry about the impact created by (for instance) Gonzalez’s “torture memo” — and what message that sent to our soldiers/guards. Does such a memo contribute to a culture or atmosphere that implicitly condones acts of torture if you’re dealing with “the really bad ones” or if the payoff (in terms of intelligence) is big enough?

I think one could argue that it does (even if unintentionally). I also think its clear that we need to do more to make sure these incidents don’t occur again.

No one has been disciplined or punished for the assault, said Baker’s lawyer, T. Bruce Simpson Jr.

Last June, a military spokesman said an internal investigation in February 2003 had concluded that no one was liable for Baker’s injuries. He said training procedures at Guantanamo had been reviewed after the incident.

“While it is unfortunate that Spc. Baker was injured, the standards of professionalism we expect of our soldiers mandate that our training be as realistic as possible,” the spokesman said.

Simpson said the Army’s Criminal Investigation Division told him last month that it had completed an investigation and had referred it to the Army’s legal section for review. A division spokesman did not respond to a request for comment Friday.

Simpson said Baker received $2,350 a month in military disability benefits, plus $1,000 a month in Social Security, but that he would give it up to have a military job.

“Even in light of all that happened to him,” Simpson said, “he still wants to serve his country.”

Something is really rotten here. The military hasn’t seen fit to punish anyone (neither guards or commanders that dreamed up this brilliant experiment), and then the military concluded no one was liable? And, then, the military refuses to accomodate Spc Sean Baker to allow him to contine to serve in some capacity?

Yes, there’s something very rotten here, and it seems to go high up.

Perhaps I was wrong. Since the military is stonewalling and trying to cover up the problem, and refuses to punish those responsible, perhaps a law suit is exactly what is needed to get all of it out in the open (if possible).

Yes, I take it all back. And, if there is a law suit, I hope it gets a lot of publicity to hopefully root out the perpetrators of this crime (the guards and the commanders that allowed it and participated in the cover-up).

Wondering what they learned from this “training experience”? That they can still get away with it without being charged or punished?

Steve: “I personally don’t think that the Bush administration was so stupid as to condone the use of clear-cut torture in working with these prisoners.”

I have to disagree. I do think they condoned the use of torture. And now are trying to backpedal a little that it has been found out. There have been too many weasel responses by top officials that indicate to me that torture is considered acceptable and necessary for “national security issues”.

steve smith:

When Republicans sound like Lawyers and justify torturing prisoners as legal because Section this, Paragraph that of the Geneva Conventions does not cover them, it also means that they support torturing US Soldiers as well.

Its really quite simple. Think about it. While you’re thinking, look up the word “sarcasm” in the dictionary.

d.a.n posted :

“Something is really rotten here. The military hasn’t seen fit to punish anyone (neither guards or commanders that dreamed up this brilliant experiment), and then the military concluded no one was liable? And, then, the military refuses to accomodate Spc Sean Baker to allow him to contine to serve in some capacity?”

This is certainly an understandable sentiment. I think that there are some “unkowns” in the entire issue. In any case, IMO Spc Sean Baker’s injuries are probably the reason that the military would rather he did not continue to serve.

As far as punishing anyone, what justification would you have for punishing the others involved for actually performing their job.

We are all thankful that Spc Baker albeit injured is still alive. Soldiers in service of their country are often injured (and sadly sometimes killed) as a result of “friendly fire”.
IMO this incident is in the same general catagory as an injury incurred as a result of friendly fire.

jimmie,

“the “Perhaps you don’t value your mental health, but the rest of us do” comment is a personal attack and a HATE CRIME to the millions of americans suffering from any form of mental illness.”

As a man who just got home from visiting his wife in a mental hospital, I side with Zeek on this issue. If the military has to pay this guy $15 million, they’re getting off easy.

“As far as punishing anyone, what justification would you have for punishing the others involved for actually performing their job.”

The punishment, if any, belongs on those who gave the orders, not those who followed them.

Steve:

“We are all thankful that Spc Baker albeit injured is still alive. Soldiers in service of their country are often injured (and sadly sometimes killed) as a result of “friendly fire”.
IMO this incident is in the same general catagory as an injury incurred as a result of friendly fire.”

Friendly fire incidents usually occur in the chaos of battle. This was a training exercise. And yes, accidents happen in training exercises, but this, at least in my mind, was no accident. I would also question where the supervisors or observers of this training exercise were while this was going on.

Something is so wrong, so out of whack about this.

Yes, I hope the lawsuit brings lots of things to light.

“As far as punishing anyone, what justification would you have for punishing the others involved for actually performing their job.”

It was their job?

Having your head banged several times is probally standard procedure during any takedown, of an unruly prisoner, at any prison in the civilized world. (In the majority of other countries I’m sure all they do is stick the barrel of their gun through the bars and cap the prisoners ass. I can’t see the pepper spray causing any real lasting side effects and the choking, well, if he is still alive then the choking probably didn’t cross the line.

The MPs did their job. As far as they knew the prisoner had already injured one soldier.

I suggest they buy tasers. They should get the type that fires the two barbs from 10 feet away and then delivers 150,000 volts.

It is suspect that all od this guys injuries are of the type that are extremely hard to verify if he really has seizures, blackouts, headaches, insomnia and psychological problems.

Lastly, he volunteered at least 3 times.

It doesn’t sound like the guards were just doing their job. But, even if they were, what about those the dreamed up this experiment?

Because, if commanders know some abuses have been occurring, why knowingly endanger the life of one of your own troops?

Is it really possible that no one could forsee the possibly disasterous outcome ?

Is it really possible that the guards were only doing their job ? Aren’t detainees hand-cuffed already ?

Too bad there aren’t any video cameras to see what really happened.

Wow, what feedback. I can’t possibly respond to all of you.

Tom L, Aldous - well said. Joe Briggs, thanks for the wonderful summary of problems in the past.

Jimmie, Jason - get therapy, guys.

Jack - you say:

What we are always lacking is balance. Bad things happen. When they do, we investigate them. When we find evidence of wrongdoing we prosecute. If people are found guilty, they are punished.

You always say that, Jack, but the facts here suggest otherwise. Somebody hyped up some MPs with “highly inflammatory, false, incendiary and misleading information”, and they choke and beat an American soldier even after he ‘“screamed a code word, “red,” and shouted: “I’m a U.S. soldier! I’m a U.S. soldier!”’, poor Spc Baker is beaten until he’s disabled, and after that:

No one has been disciplined or punished for the assault, said Baker’s lawyer…Last June, a military spokesman said an internal investigation in February 2003 had concluded that no one was liable for Baker’s injuries.

Face the facts, Jack. Things are or were out of hand. If there are going to be real investigations, not “internal” whitewashes that find no one guilty for ending a person’s career, then that’s because there is pressure from the outside—-the kind of pressure that Team Blue is putting on, and the Team Red is resisting, mostly by hysterically shouting “America hater!” whenever anything is reported. The best thing to do now is a bipartisan congressional level investigation including people that both sides trust, as George from SC suggested recently.

d.a.n. - I can’t tell if Spc. Baker’s participation in this experiment was stupid or heroic. Maybe a little of both. He went in, as a volunteer, at what was apparently great personal risk, to find out what was going on in Gitmo - to find out how prisoners were actually treated. Maybe he went in expecting that he’d be treated fairly and humanely, and help to put nasty rumours damaging spread by America-haters like me to rest. And after what happened, he still wants to serve.

I personally think his story should be talked up. He’s a hero, just as much as anyone that’s volunteered to go into enemy fire.

Aldous,

I admire the way that you are able to post messages that support both left and right views on issues. It is a good way to never be wrong.
Then you invoke “sarcasm” on the difficult ones to address.

I also like the suble ways you invite people to look words up in the dictionary as though you were talking down to them although I know you would never do that.

I did look up sarcasm : as it turns out it is a very appropriate abbreviation :
S = Save
a = all
r = Republicans
c = Conservatives
a = and
s = Sane people
m = Meaningless rhetoric

I may be missing something here, but when did a training exercise turn into an “experiment”?

Having been in the military, volunteer can mean a couple of different things.

I personally think his story should be talked up. He’s a hero, just as much as anyone that’s volunteered to go into enemy fire.

Definitely !
I think it is admirable that he still wants to serve in the military. I’d never say Spc Sean Baker was stupid. However, I would say that of the commanders that dreamed up this experiment. And I would say that of the military for trying to cover-up the entire incident and bar Spc Sean Baker from continuing to work in some capacity in the military.

If this is something that is going to court and a lawsuit, does any rational person believe that his attorney is presenting all the facts of this case to the media? Or was it the military that presented this case to the press to opine?

“I can’t tell if Spc. Baker’s participation in this experiment was stupid or heroic. Maybe a little of both.”

I’ve frequently heard that there’s a fine line between bravery and stupidity. I disagree. I think there’s a HUGE overlap!

I would define bravery as being intentionally stupid, because sometimes the intelligent thing to do isn’t necessarily the right thing to do.

Jimmie,

Picture this, you’re a citizen who is in the police academy, and you’re selected(or you volunteer) to play the role of a perp who is resisting arrest…during the exercise, you “resist” a little too hard and the cadets playing the cops get a little rough and bash your skull in…you think it’s right that you should get nothing because you were just DOING YOUR JOB!!!!??

The man deserves compensation from his government for allowing this type of brutality to occur. The worst part is that this was a training exercise in which, I would guess, the guards took it easy on him… I can only imagine how the real prisoners are being treated. Terrorists or not, you don’t treat people like that…it shows you to be no better than the criminals themselves, but apparently we’re not concerned with that, so hell, why don’t we just line them up and shoot them, how about that!!??

If this is something that is going to court and a lawsuit, does any rational person believe that his attorney is presenting all the facts of this case to the media? Or was it the military that presented this case to the press to opine?

Beagle, are you suggesting Spc. Baker is malingering? or trying to get rich from this incident? come on, come out and say it, if that’s what you think.

According to the article, though, these facts seem to be undisputed:

- “he was treated for injuries suffered when a five-man MP “internal reaction force” choked him, slammed his head several times against a concrete floor and sprayed him with pepper gas.”

- he “was medically retired in April 2004”, which I assume requires more evidence of disability that holding a thermometer up to the light bulb.

- “In the lawsuit filed … Baker asked the Army to reinstate him in a position that would accommodate his medical condition. He said the Army put him on medical retirement against his wishes.”

William,

All I was saying was: I don’t know the entire facts of the case, and I would doubt anyone else does either untill the facts are presented from both sides.

Is it such a streach to hold judgement untill both sides are heard?

I think he was faking his ailments when he got his disability. Then, when he found out his disablility wasn’t as much as he thought it was going to be, he filed a lawsuit.

William,
You would be surprised how easy it is to fake disability. And, since this happened, the way it did, the military probably rubber stamped it…but, the guy probably only gets 200 a month and free treatment for his “headaches”

I know a veteran who is rated 100% disabled for a bad back. You know what he does for a living? He installs granite counter tops. Just in case you don’t get my point - Granite counter tops weigh A LOT.

ooops, I just saw the guy is getting 3500 per month. 3500 for faking headaches, insomnia, and psychological problems. Now this is really looking like the “8 million dollar spilled mcdonald’s coffee lawsuit”

Let’s take a vote, how many of you want this guy back on active duty in the military ?

Remember the question really is….how many of you want to give a gun to a soldier who has “psychological problems”

Of course he had to be discharged. No wait, here’s an idea, lets let him stay in the Army….promote him until he can make life or death decisions for hundreds or thousands of other soldiers. Now there’s a “progrssive” idea.

Wow, James. Belittling an injured veteran based on nothing but unsubstantiated conjecture.

Be glad you’re not a Liberal on this board, or else you’d be called a Traitor.

James: ‘ooops, I just saw the guy is getting 3500 per month. 3500 for faking headaches, insomnia, and psychological problems. Now this is really looking like the “8 million dollar spilled mcdonald’s coffee lawsuit”’

Yeah, hot coffee, having your head smashed into a concrete floor a few times, it’s really all the same. And everyone in the army has guns, right? there aren’t, like, any desk jobs at all.

Under your “Support the troops” sticker, James, do you have a disclaimer posted that says “unless if might possibly embarrass the civilian leadership”?

Dear Lawnboy and others whom I may have offended by my use of the word “Jerk” it amounted to no more than petty “Name Calling”.
In the future, my posts to this thread, may become more verbose and wordy as I challenge myself and others to use this beautiful language handed down to us by our forefathers to find just the precise words as to never again having resort to that in which I can so beautifully describe with out ever using those words that others may be offended by. I should have consulted my Roget’s Thesaurus and scanned the vast, volumnous pages to find a less offensive word to utilise, in the future you will never see such profanity come from my keyboard. If my words were offensive in any way any of you reading this thread it was never my intention, please accept my sincerest apologies.

As Always,
Wayne

Wayne,

For jerk you could try something like ;

Challenged in terms of rational thinking….

Seemingly misguided…

Irrational decision maker….

“seemingly misguided,” now that was a good one, steve :)

All:

We seem to be getting away from the facts here:

Fact 1) Spc Baker Volunteered For this mission

Undisputed WE ALL KNOW THAT.

Fact 2) WHAT NO ONE SEEMS TO REALIZE IS THIS. This was training, even someone like me could not be expected to be proficient on all aspects of their respective jobs at all times. These guys that did this to him, all KNEW him. They Knew this was for training. Hell no, This guy was a member of their unit, a man they DEPENDED on just as MUCH as he DEPENDED on them. What you all fail to recognize is this The US Military isn’t a Bunch of untrained, undisciplined whacko’s running all over the place with guns willy nilly shooting everything in sight. This is a well oiled machine that runs well until you get a breakdown of the parts that make up that entire machine.

Fact 3) Leadership Failure: From the top on down, All LEADERS?(I question if there was any leadership in this case) Should be held accountable for this injustice? WHERE WERE YOU? On that fateful day, WHERE WERE YOU? I hope that SPC Bakers ENTIRE Chain of Command (COC), is at a minimum charged with Willful Destruction of Government Property. Yes, Soldier’s, Sailor’s, Airmen, and Marines, are the property OF “Uncle Sam”.

Fact 3a)Why, when it appeared that this Training (mis)Adventure was a about to get out of hand, did not one of the leaders step in and put a stop to it? That’s my main concern, Why? Because he might be looking after my well being…..NEXT!

Fact 4) How do I know so much? I gave the last 20 years of my life to the Army, That’s how!

As Always,
Wayne

Steve…

This is my new favorite:

Challenged in terms of rational thinking….

Thanks,
Wayne

Jimmie’s post from last night makes it pretty clear we have to bring back the focus to the quality of education in America. Not only that, we need to foster a more tolerant atmosphere that the current one which encourages disillusioned youth to see the world in such “us vs. them” terms - not just toward the world outside but towards their fellow Americans as well.
The current regime has the White House, the Senate, and the House of Representatives, and somehow, things have gotten worse, and worse, and worse. The way I’m choosing to do my part to stop this madness is by helping the Democrats Take Back America in 2006 and 2008. I think it’s about time we put aside the idiocy and let the Great American Debate resume - for our good, the good of our children, and the good of the world. If you’re willing to help, I’ve added a link below. If not, that’s OK too, just keep the Great Debate alive. The more voices, the better.
https://www.democrats.org/epatriots/give.html?sourcecode=E008471

Wayne,

Glad you like one of my suggestions.

It is hard for anyone to argue the logic explained in your post. Coming from someone who dedicated his adult life to the military I would accept you analysis of a situation without question.

The only explanation I can come up with is that the leaders (on site) had delegated and were not directly supervising, instead trusting to their previous success with the same men carrying out orders/assignments. They are of course still ultimately responsible.

Wayne, WRT leadership failure: IMHO you’re right on the money here. An investigation that says that nobody was responsible is highly suspect - there is always be someone responsible for making sure that things like this don’t happen.

William, I had to laugh though at the quoted redundant “traumatic brain injury”. Aren’t all brain injuries traumatic?

Trauma is the result of an external force: motor vehicle collision, assault, falling, etc.

There are many non-traumatic brain injuries: stroke, hemorrhage from an aneurysm, infection etc.

Are there two different people on this post named Wayne ?

One with signature:

As Always,
Wayne

and one with signature simply:
Wayne

Or perhaps it’s just a case of schizophrenia ?

d.a.n.

For the sake of arguement it is safe to assume that both of names you so eliquently and diligently reminded all of us about, were in fact mine. Please forgive me it is not a case of schizophrenia, as you so cleverly and wittingly brought to everyone’s attention. It was a simple and sudden case of let’s get on to the more worthy subjects at hand without delaying it any further.

As Always,
Wayne

or if you prefer,
Wayne

In another thread, Rocky posted a link to a segment 60 Minutes did on this case. It’s pretty chilling.

Some key points:

But in fact, Locke later acknowledged in a sworn statement that he did not indicate �whether the scenario was a drill or not a drill to the IRF team.� Locke did, however, tell the team the detainee had not responded to pepper spray.

“They wanted to make training a little more realistic,” says Baker. “Put this orange suit on.” The orange suit is what prisoners use. In previous training exercises, the volunteer didn’t wear an oragne suit.

So, basically, Baker was the new guy that the other officers didn’t know. He volunteered for what he was told was a regular training exercise, but the standard saftey measures were not used, and this was the only training exercise that wasn’t videotaped.

This is really fishy.

this entire discussion just makes me want to vomit - the bush administration respects the constitutional rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happinesss for absolutely NO ONE except themselves and their self-righteous hypocracy, fueled by naked greed …

absolutely NO ONE, not even a soldier who thought he was serving his country (in what has turned out to be a largely fictitious smokescreen called the “war” on “terror”) - or could it be that this entire incident was just a “silencing” exercise (like intentionally killing reporters) against someone who, for reasons we will probably never know, had become a perceived threat to gitmo’s “security” … fishy, indeed, but sadly nothing new …

Wayne wrote: It was a simple and sudden case of let’s get on to the more worthy subjects at hand without delaying it any further.

As Always,
Wayne
or if you prefer,
Wayne

OK Wayne. You’re right.

Thanks!

Khandara,
Then you might enjoy this and/or this. It’s not just Bush. The problem is bigger than that.

_________________cbsnews______________ [Spc Sean Baker] Baker says his orders that night were to get under a bunk on a steel floor in a dark cell, and wait: “I [Baker] said, [to Shaw Locke] ‘Sir, you’re going to tell that IRF team that I’m a U.S. soldier?’ He [Shaw Locke] said, ‘Yes, you’ll be fine, Spc. Baker. Trust me.’” But in fact, Locke later acknowledged in a sworn statement that he did not indicate “whether the scenario was a drill or not a drill to the IRF team.†Locke did, however, tell the team the detainee had not responded to pepper spray. ………… Locke [2nd Lt. Shaw Locke of the 303rd Military Police Company from Michigan] gave Baker a code word – red - to shout out in case of trouble. ………… Apparently, no one heard the code word ‘red’ because Baker says he continued to be manhandled, especially by an MP named Scott Sinclair who was holding onto his head. …………. “And when I said the word ‘Red,’ he forced my head down against the steel floor and was sort of just grinding it into the floor. The individual then, when I picked up my head and said, ‘Red,’ slammed my head down against the floor,” says Baker. “I was so afraid, I groaned out, ‘I’m a U.S. soldier.’ And when I said that, he slammed my head again, one more time against the floor. …………. Bloodied and disoriented, Baker somehow made it back to his unit, and his first thought was to get hold of the videotape. “I said, ‘Go get the tape,’” recalls Baker. “‘They’ve got a tape. Go get the tape.’ My squad leader went to get the tape.” Every extraction drill at Guantanamo was routinely videotaped, and the tape of this drill would show what happened. But Baker says his squad leader came back and said, “There is no tape.” “That was the only time that I heard that a tape had gone missing,” says Riley, Baker’s platoon sergeant. …………… [squad leader] Riley says he and England approached Capt. Judith Brown, the commander of the Kentucky National Guard at Guantanamo, and asked her what was going on with that investigation. What did the captain say? “I’ll paraphrase. It’s something like, it’s being looked into, but we really don’t wanna get anybody in trouble,” says Riley. …………… Some days, he says, he [i.e. Sean Baker] was having 10 to 12 seizures per day. ____________________________

More that just a bit strange !
It wreaks.
There seems to be two obvious suspects:

(1) Second Lt. Shaw Locke of the 303rd Military Police Company from Michigan

(2) MP named Scott Sinclair

(3) and who ever took the video tape (if it existed)?

(4) and who ever is stone-walling the investigation, found no one was at fault, and started the cover-up.

Thanks for the links to the 60min/CBS stories, guys. Baker was royally screwed and it sounds more deliberate than negligent. There’s clearly something going on here, and that “something” includes a coverup, and it needs to be straightened out…

…even if the Jimmie’s and Jason’s of the GOP are shouting “move to China” whenever someone mentions the possibility of a problem in that most humanitarian and pleasant vacation spot, Gitmo.

Hi All:

First Let me say thanks to Rocky for providing the link to this sad, sad saga of SPC Sean Baker. Who at the hands of fellow soldiers is now a Siezure Prone shell of his former self all in the name of training. Hmm, makes me ponder, is this how we treat all SOLDIERS hurt in training. Glad I never got injured during training, I can only hope that my “Government” Doesn’t treat me like this guy, as our situations are similar. hmm… Fingers Crossed. I also have racked my brain wondering what was the fate of Second Lt. Shaw Locke. Where is this man now? I’d be asking too much to hope to hear “Leavenworth”.

SPC Baker:
“I said, ‘Sir, you’re going to tell that IRF team that I’m a U.S. soldier?’ He said, ‘Yes, you’ll be fine, Spc. Baker. Trust me.’”

But in fact, Locke later acknowledged in a sworn statement that he did not indicate ?whether the scenario was a drill or not a drill to the IRF team.? Locke did, however, tell the team the detainee had not responded to pepper spray.”

What Prevented 2LT Locke, from watching out for “SPC Baker’s” welfare, when things started to get out of hand. HE OWED IT TO SPC BAKER & ALL OTHER SOLDIER’S IN THIS ARMY, TO PUT AN IMMEDIATE STOP TO WHAT WAS GOING ON.

Where was LT Locke’s Platoon Sergeant? You know why I ask, don’t you? This is why you don’t put 2LT’s in charge OF ANYTHING, when they initially arrive. Platoon Sergeant’s TEACH/MOLD LT’s how to lead, because otherwise they’d have no idea what skills they they needed to develope! It is not their fault, the Army realizes that, That’s the purpose of Counseling. Platoon Sergeants/Squad Leaders/Section Chiefs, all the skills you are learning today, are all preparing you for the future, open your eyes, ears and yes even your mouths(there are no stupid ?’s except for the one not asked) Did you come in the Army as a Sergeant First Class, no, why because it takes time to learn a job and become proficient at it. SFC Riley you should have never let him go WITHOUT full understanding of what 2LT Locke had planned! Shame on you (I’d say more choice words, but this is not a private forum) You learn from all your leaders both good & bad, your job as a leader is to seperate the good from the bad, take from that what you like, what you don’t sort through that and then put it forth in what hopefully will be a well planned, understood, executable way that everyone can understand what the objective is?

“You always train at 70 percent. Never 100 percent,” says Michael Riley, who was Baker’s platoon sergeant. “Seventy percent means you want to practice and be proficient, but not get anybody hurt.”

Well, whenever I loaned out “Platoon Property” the condition was noted and returned to my platoon in that same condition.
If you did not return “said” property in the same condition it was lent to you their was “HELL” to pay. I believe in this case, I would be “UNCONTROLABLY LIVID”, and whomever the borrower was would at least or minimum be on the receiving end of very “BITTER” ass-chewing regardless of their rank. I would be blind with rage, uncontrolable, Just Like these soldiers were the difference…my COC would be involved IMMEDIATELY, and if they weren’t doing enough, fast enough, the “Inspector General” (IG).

I am assuming that from what I can gather from this article That SFC Riley, 1SG England are still on active duty or in the ranks the National Guard or Army Reserves? What I can’t figure out is What LT Locke’s fate was, did he even face charges? I just heard that he sent an application into LAPD, I’ll bet he’d be ruled Unacceptable,
even by their lax standards. “Sorry LAPD, Cheap Shot”
What’s Scott Sinclair been charged With? You remember him doncha, He’s The soldier who repeatedly slammed SPC Baker’s head into the concrete. I guess he was just doing his job. At a minimum he should be arrested, art. 32 invest., conducted. Should go rather quickly now that the boys in the 5 sided building in D.C. are aware.
Although not in the COC, CPT Judith Brown the Commander of the KY, National Guard(this is most often a liason type of position, in fact I’d be surprised if she didn’t cover many states, as well as other duties) Did not initiate Commander’s Inquiry, Sorry the excuse given was not even remotely acceptable, she owed it to SPC Baker at the very least. I would put her away for a very, very, long time. Charge(s): Well derelection of duty, conduct unbecoming for starters.
LT Locke: derelection of duty, failure to repair, destruction of gov’t property, attempted murder, conduct unbecoming, those are just of the top of my head. Relief for Cause OER
SFC Riley: derelection of duty, Relief for Cause NCOER Needs Improvement Section: leadership
1SG England: Relief for Cause NCOER Needs Improvement Section: Responsibity
SPC Sinclair: Too many to list here

Just like Watergate, if not for an Army “Deep Throat” we might not have known about this “Beating Disguised As Training “.

As Always,
Wayne
But lately
Very, Very Verbose

Thanks for the inside view, Wayne.