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Great commentary William. I totally agree. I cannot imagine what our society has become when torturing is not only acceptable, but encouraged by some people. Americans would be outraged if they learned that any captured soldiers of ours were tortured, and yet, it is okay that our soldiers are doing this to Iraqis and Afghanis? I do hope that the Republican Majority (who are supposed to be such high and mighty moral christians) will step in and put an end to all of this torture and abuse, even if it means taking out top men in our government!

I believe the Republican line is:
1. This is just a few bad apples.
2. NYT is part of the liberal media and therefore lying.
3. Spreading Freedom is hard work.
4. Think of the millions the Taliban killed.
5. Afghans are better off today.
6. You are an UnPatriotic, UnAmerican Girlie Man.
7. Why don’t you leave the country?
8. Its all the Liberals fault.
9. They are all Terrorists anyway.
10. The Taliban does worse things to their prisoners.
11. This keeps America from being attacked.
12. This is not Torture just a Fraternity Initiation.

Feel free to add more.

Torture is not accepted or encouraged by American authorities. When allegations are made they are investigated. When they are substantiated, charges are brought. When proven, people are punished. This is the sign of a civilized country and a responsible leadership. I remain proud of my country.

Journalists are right to bring these things out. They also have the responsibility to put them in the proper context.

Aldous. About half of your dozen points are valid. You can probably figure out which ones.

Actually, they are all valid. Just guess which Republican said it.

That a person identified as a Republican said it does not mean it is the Republican line.

Do I assume correctly that you don’t agree with any of them?

When allegations are made they are investigated. When they are substantiated, charges are brought. When proven, people are punished. This is the sign of a civilized country and a responsible leadership.

Guess what, Jack? Torture can’t be proven all that easily and sometimes officials don’t try all that hard. You may see signs of a civilized country, but that would really be depending on what your definition of “civilized” is. As for responsible leadership, please. What country more than America is known for it’s finger pointing, “it’s not my fault,” leaders?

The Right’s habit of using one liners exemplifies all of the US problems to date. Take the UN discussion on the Red Column right now. The Republican Premise of dissolving the UN is repeated over and over again. As if that was all there is. However, no mention is ever made about the day after. Exactly, what do the Republicans intend to DO after the UN is gone? Blame someone else?

Aldous said “The Right’s habit of using one liners exemplifies all of the US problems to date. Take the UN discussion on the Red Column right now. The Republican Premise of dissolving the UN is repeated over and over again. As if that was all there is. However, no mention is ever made about the day after. Exactly, what do the Republicans intend to DO after the UN is gone? Blame someone else?”

The first thing that comes to mind is to celebrate. The next thing we should do is to try to right all the wrongs the UN has done.

And they are….?

Torture is not accepted or encouraged by American authorities.

If only it were so, Jack. If only it were so.

This Administration has taken the kind of strong and clear stance on “torture” that Clinton took on “sex”. You may have heard of a few of these memos: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62516-2004Jun22.html

Jack, you might also look at a few of these memos:

http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/fbi.html

Unless you have heavy blinders on, it’s quite clear that this administration has deliberately taken several steps down the slippery slope to torture. And it’s not just a few enlisted men - e.g., Rumsfeld has admitted to “disappearing” prisoners - taking them off the books and creating “ghost” prisoners.

In our own politically correct prisons we have gang members (I viewed this on a televised expose’) that are laughing at our attempts to control them and stop them from conducting their buisiness from behind bars! They have decided to move the head opperators to seperate prisons throughout the U.S.! The gang members responded with…”Go ahead,we would love to recruit in other areas!”
My point is this….Do you really believe anyone wants to resort to torture? Come on now! Give me a break! The facts are this…PC is not working…they are laughing at us! We are not hated by the rest of the world, we are a joke to them because they know they can get away with murder and if we slip up in any direction they can cry and whine and most of our own citizens will be sympathetic to them and completely forget about why they are there in the first place!

Surely we are not naive enough to think that our prisoners are not presently being tortured. In fact part of the training of US military (and some non military) personnel includes how to cope (if such a thing is possible) with being tortured.

I would hazard to say that the enemy has far fewer US prisoners than we do of theirs. Also the information that we want from them is not concentrated on their activities in opposition to us in THEIR land but, IMO is almost exclusively focused on what they know about what their covert operations are relating to OUR land/USA.

I would like to hear at least one definition of TORTURE. There are many degrees of treatment that might fall into that catagory. Panties on heads, pictures of people in underwear or naked, dog collars, flushing Korans down the toilet, etc. cannot even in the wildest stretch of imagination be considered torture.

I am very surprised by the number of deaths of
detainees and the lack of media coverage given.

Traci, it’s highly unlikely that any solid information will be gained from those detainees that have been killed while being tortured.

I’ll respond to your Conservative, Neo-con, Republican, Right-wing-Nuts agenda;
“Gawlee! Shucks! Well how ‘bout that! Ya don’t say! Fer real! DAMN! Get ‘er done! Here’s your sign! A flip flap flarrin flip discentors, GO BUSHWACKER! Nucular! YEE HAW! Yes Ma’am!”
There, that should successfully counter all of your points!
Ya?ll Have Fun!

I would like to hear at least one definition of TORTURE. There are many degrees of treatment that might fall into that catagory. Panties on heads, pictures of people in underwear or naked, dog collars, flushing Korans down the toilet, etc. cannot even in the wildest stretch of imagination be considered torture.

Steve, would your definition include being “chained by the wrists to the top of [your] cell” for days, having your legs “pummeled by guards for several days” until they can “no longer bend”, “stepping on the neck of one prostrate detainee and kicking another in the genitals”, leading to “bruises or abrasions on [your] chest, arms and head… deep contusions on [your] calves, knees and thighs…death attributed to a blood clot, probably caused by the severe injuries to his legs”, death due to “blunt force injuries to the lower extremities”, legs that have been “pulpified” - leading to the comparison “I’ve seen similar injuries in an individual run over by a bus” — ?

All from the article I linked to.

Great article William.
Nicely done, Aldous.

Nietzsche:
“If you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer

Stephen

The example you give is clearly torture. That is why investigations were made and charges are brought.

What we face is a bait and switch. People talk about the appalling cases we all agree are odious. Then they switch to the more subtle things and imply that torture is widespread. Some people have defined spanking children as torture (as I included in another post). Some people define playing loud music as torture. The widespread accusations are often things like these. We are baited the terrible ones and left with the others.

I agree that beating a person to death is torture and it is odious. That is why we don’t tolerate it.

It does, however, take a while to investigate. There are many false accusations. Since we are a country with the rule of law, we need to investigate completely. If the charges are well founded, we prosecute. When we convict, we punish. But recall that the guards are also innocent until proven guilty.

Steve,

I would like to hear at least one definition of TORTURE. There are many degrees of treatment that might fall into that catagory. Panties on heads, pictures of people in underwear or naked, dog collars, flushing Korans down the toilet, etc. cannot even in the wildest stretch of imagination be considered torture.

It is moot whether or not it is torture, the fact is all of these incidents are illegal according to the Geneva conventions.

We are a nation of laws, not a nation of laws-that-are-convenient-at-the-time.

Jack,

The army and military should not be allowed to be in charge of the investigations into their own mis-conduct. Investigations should be performed by a third party that accused and accuser agrees is fair.

Julia

A third party that both consider fair would be good, but who would that be? The terrorists would be able to make accusations and then not agree to a third party.

We have a duty to protect human rights. But it is also true that we are the party that makes the rules. I don’t want to invoke power politics, but that is the truth.

At Nuremburg, the Nazis didn’t accept the fairness. Milosevic does not consider the proceeding against him fair. Saddam doesn’t recognize the validity of his capture.

This is not an episode of Law and Order. If the other side recognized the rule of law, we would not have to fight a war to contain them.

Jack,

Fair enough. How about we have the Red Cross conduct the investigations? Do you object to that?

I fail to see why we can’t come up with an alternative to the army investigating itself

Julia

“What we face is a bait and switch. People talk about the appalling cases we all agree are odious. Then they switch to the more subtle things and imply that torture is widespread.”

It’s not bait and switch, Jack. First, to some of us it is also very disturbing to think of prisoners who are suspected terrorists - people who have had no access to any court - being abused, even if the abuse is only psychological rather than physical. People tend to lump together things that lead to the same emotional reaction.

Second, many believe there is a real, causal connection between what you call “subtle things” - which I would call cruel and unusual - and the “odious” things - things that even you don’t want to see done.

If you set the speed limit at 55, then a lot of people go 60, 65, or even 70. If you set it at 80 then people will go 85 and 90. So when the road can only handle traffic at 75, you set the limit a little lower. That’s called a safety factor, and it’s important to have one.

What’s happened is that BushCo has raised the “speed limit” - raised it to a point where many Americans find even officially sanctioned, widespread activities morally abhorent - and reduced the number of traffic cops - by putting poorly trained reservists in understaffed prisons in high-pressure situations.

When the speed limit’s already at 90 and nobody’s watching, you can be pretty certain that there will be some spectacular crashes, and that’s what we’re seeing with these especially “odious” cases. It’s not a good situation, and from a moral point of view, I think the blame is at least partly shared by those (like you, Jack and Steve) that have ignored or supported the steps the US has taken down this slippery slope.

I don’t think the Red Cross has the capacity or the desire to carry out criminal investigations. Their role is to advise the competent authorities about areas of concern. Those authorities then do the investigation.

BTW - there is no evidence to believe that the U.S. Army is not doing a good job investigating. Some people just don’t like the results. Court cases can be like that. I still think OJ Simpson was guilty, but the court said otherwise.

William, last post — very well said.

Julia:
“How about we have the Red Cross conduct the investigations?”

That’s an excellent idea.

“I fail to see why we can’t come up with an alternative to the army investigating itself.”

Me too. In light of all we’ve already seen, there is absolutely no good reason any of us should want that to happen.

BTW - there is no evidence to believe that the U.S. Army is not doing a good job investigating…

…When they’re forced to investigate by leaks from embedded patriots. Otherwise it’s all whitewashed.