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We are not going to have a draft. I think you and many of your liberal friends would like to see one just so you could criticize Presidebt Bush for it. So far, the only people I have heard talking about a draft is liberals.

I don’t think this is pedantic difference.

Getting rid of Saddam Hussein was always the right thing to do. The argument was always about whether we (the U.S.) should do it and how much blood and treasure was justified in doing it. There was also the practical question of whether we could do the needful restoration at a cost we were willing and able to pay.

I mention this because I detect a subtle shift in argument that partial rehabilitates the Baathist regime. Let’s be clear. We can all agree that Saddam’s regime was bad and dangerous. We can argue that he was not a clear and present danger to the U.S. (I believe yes, many disagree). No matter, our coalition allies and we have rid the world of one of its more odious menaces. We may have been as belligerent and aggressive as the man who takes it on himself to apprehend burglars far away from his own home, but we were not unjust in the act itself.

With President Bush’s “diplomacy” skills so non-existent, I’m beginning to think it’s dangerous NOT to have a draft.

Hey, look at that! The opposition can criticise Bush whether he calls for a draft or not. :)

The argument was always about whether we (the U.S.) should do it and how much blood and treasure was justified in doing it.

Jack, make that, “…whether we (the U.S.) should do it ALONE…” and I’ll agree.

Your analogy about apprehending the burgler would be apt for the first Gulf War, but a better analogy for Bush Jr’s war would be a vigilante breaking into the burgler’s prison cell and lynching him.

You can make the argument that the lynching was for our own good, but it’s still outside the law. Oh, and don’t forget the lying.

And the cost, too. Out of pocket expenses for Gulf I were about 20%. Our allies picked up the other 80% of the tab.

And the monthly payments in lives and tax dollars on Junior’s war are a bitch, too.

But you’re right. Saddam was a bad guy. We can all agree on that.

Tomd-
Because it’s not the elephant in the room for us. We don’t have to keep our mouths shut for fear that we will admit an uncomfortable truth.

And that it is. The uncomfortable truth is that Bush and his people started a war against a threat that was not real, and have since refused to admit the truth about that. The mismanagement of this war has added an element of unreasonable danger of life and limb to the hollowed out cause.

Republicans cannot easily criticize the administration for being wrong on the call that this was part of the war on terror, nor can they criticize a war their party is management. They won back a majority in the 2002 and 2004 elections by claiming themselves superior defenders of our country. They are fighting desperately to remain the reputed best defenders of the realm. So they can’t admit their administration didn’t do it’s duty on intelligence, nor can they admit their people aren’t the strategical genius they’re supposed to be. By extension, admitting that their party has put too few people in the field was also impossible, and because of that, they waited too long to build up the forces. Now the war is on the verge of becoming unsustainable just on the basis of keeping fresh troops in theatre, much less fighting another war elsewhere.

What other solution is there? The alternative to a draft is draining soldiers from other theatres of battle, or drawing down troops from Iraq. These options may not be in our best interests.

The administration’s unwillingness to face the hard truths of the war in Iraq has put us in this position. It has also made the Democrats the only people who as a party can admit what the writing on the wall says.

Stephen,
You are reading between the lines and making assumptions.
I will make a public wager with you here and now…How soon do you think we will have a draft?
I will wager a public apology here on this blog that there won’t be a draft during Bush’s administration. Wanna put your reputation on the line?

tomd,

please be a little more specific in your wager, there is already a “backdoor draft”.

Soldiers are suing because of it.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/12/1518257

I think a draft might (might) be a good idea. It is the nearest thing to the great equalizer.

I have many friends in the military and they all say things are getting hairy. Its not just the shortage of men, its the shortage of Officers and NCOs too. People are being promoted automatically regardless of how qualified they are. The number of Captains are dropping and worse, the NCOs are going too. The idiots who replace them are scaring the living daylights of my friends. This is getting serious.

Bert,
Terrific links, great ariticle. Thank!

No one wants a draft. A volunteer military is preferable. I know people in the military felt that way when I served, 1980-86, and I’m pretty sure they still feel the same way, for the same reasons.

I’m pretty sure we’ll find a way out of Iraq sooner rather than later, a ‘declare victory and go home’ strategy, probably in coordination with the Shias. They want us out. We want out.

But if the US bombs Iranian nuclear facilities, Katie bar the door. It’s an insanely bad idea, but I think the neocons are eager to go for it. At that point a draft, no matter how undesirable, could become inevitable.

On a side note, the neocons & Rove might believe bombing Iran would help in the ‘06 domestic elections. A spike in oil prices would deflect criticism from their economic mismanagement, & provide a ready excuse to conceal the underlying causes of the next recession.

You people sure are paranoid…There is no draft period. Everyone in our military are there because they volenteered to be there. You call keeping troops beyond their commitment time a “backdoor” draft…NOT SO Everyone who joins our armed services is told that their service might be extended if needed. I was told that when I was drafted in the ’60s and they still tell the troops that now.
By draft, I mean the issue of draft cards and calling up people for military service without their consent. THAT is a draft. And my wager still stands if any of you will accept it.

If George Bush does draft people like me, his republican successor will lose many votes; my mother voted Republican, but I do not think she would support someone who sends me to Iraq, Iran, N. Korea or anywhere else without through conscription. On the other hand, if the army is tied up in Iraq, how will Bush retaliate against North Korea if it invades South Korea, without conscipting Young Americans like me?

I for one don’t think there will be a draft either. If there is one thing Bush is great at its politics. It would be political suicide to institute the draft and I for one don’t believe Rovetopia would allow Bush to commit political suicide ever.

If the American casualities start mounting up like they did in Vietnam, it may be the only course besides leaving. I sure hope it doesn’t get to that.

Tom,
I’d wouldn’t care to take you up on that wager either; the odds appear to be in your favor, though that doesn’t mean I think a draft couldn’t happen.

The one foreseeable scenario I can imagine would begin with a bombing of Irania nuclear facilities. However, the Bush administration would be foolish to do so without seeing the situation in Iraq improve; and that could take a long time.

It’s the unforeseeable situation which causes concern. We’re in a poor strategic situation, with a large number of troops bogged down in Iraq. Good leadership wouldn’t put us in this vulnerable situation. Because as unlikely as it is, sometimes, ‘stuff’ happens. Being unprepared is a hallmark of incompetence at the highest levels.

I didn’t think anyone would take me up on it. Just like other things I see, This thread started as a scare tactic….THERE WILL BE NO DRAFT DURING PRESIDENT BUSH’S ADMINISTRATION.

tomd,

If you go back and read my post carefully, you’ll find that I included the appropriate caveats, neither predicting the draft will happen, nor wishing it would.

I merely provided ample evidence that the continued failure and mismanagement of this administration has brought us to the point, where the institution of the draft is a real possibility.

Furthermore, I strongly suspect the reason no one would take you up on your bet, is that they also feel it inappropriate to wager on whether Americans will be called to put their lives on the line for their country.

sad to say,but the picture is the same in my soul also..Mrs Charles Wain Wingate

tomd-
I can’t predict the next crisis. But I can tell you based on what the armed forces have told congress that if we end up fighting another war right now, we don’t have the volunteer troops to fight it right, or at the least to sustain it.

It is a Backdoor Draft. I know the reserves and the Guard are obligated to show up, But Bush is doing this rather than admit insufficient volunteer forces. This hasn’t been done since China pushed us back half a century ago. This is a problem Bush has failed to deal with.

The reserves too are at a breaking point, so we don’t have anything to fall back on.

So it’s a simple chain of logic: Volunteer troops at their limit, Two wars being fought at once, neither of which we can back out gracefully from, and the reserves shot to hell. We only have three choices if another war breaks out: take troops from other areas, risking trouble at those points, let the crisis remain unanswered, or reinstitute a draft. Now which would you do?

I think you simply don’t want to face that ugly truth. If another crisis breaks out and requires a military response of any size, a draft may be the least of the possible evils.

Stephen, Gen. Myers just said the same thing,

The U.S. military’s operations in Iraq and Afghanistan have constrained its ability to tackle other potential conflicts, making any future war more likely to be longer and bloodier, according to America’s top general.

“The timelines may have to be extended. And we may have to use additional resources. But that doesn’t matter because we’re going to be successful in the end,” Myers told reporters.

By “additional resources”, Gen. Myers is either talking about new draftees or nuclear weapons.

You are STILL speculating…If a democrat gets elected we will all be bowing to Mecca. That seems to be just as valid of a statement. Neither has any merit.

Who’s speculating, tom? General Myers, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff?

tomd: are you kidding me? Bowing to Mecca? Talk about paranoid!!! Are you being paid by the republicans, or are you really that simple?

What the Bush administration wants is irrelevant, their course dictates their actions. The facts are simple, as is the truth. With expansionism on their minds, and a declining volunteer enlistment in active duty and reserve, a draft is likely. To claim there will be no draft without a fundamental shift in foregin policy is neo-con hogwash. War with Iran is inevidable. The administration cannot secure Iraq and it’s lucrative oil fields without first securing, or “stabilizing” Iran. A fundamentalist government on the Iraqi border will be a problem for the administration. Here is how it will go down. Israel will launch an air strike against suspected Iranian nuclear facilities. Iran will respond with an attack against Israel. We will respond in defense of our “ally” and blame Iran for starting it. It’s all just logical progression. To accomplish any of this we must double our military numbers. I don’t see 200,000 twenty year olds suddenly going to the Army recruiter. That leads to a draft (which the SSS is already prepared for). The way to stop a draft is an abrupt change in US foregin policy. And the odds on that are…

Bowing to Mecca? Was it President George. W. Bush I saw holding hands with the crowned prince of Saudi Arabia, or was that more “liberal” media bias? tomd, you should think your thoughts through to conclusion before typing. Most of us liberals do not drink the kool-aid or subscribe to the bumper sticker, two word culture. The truth is all around you, embrace it.

There is no backdoor draft. Being a veteran this has gone on for a very long time where the military will keep soldiers on active duty after their time is up.

I find it rather interesting the language that the author of this article uses. It seems to me he should settle down or possibly get his rabies shots…and soon.

I can speculate about all of us having to bow to Mecca the same as you can speculate about the draft…neither has any merit.

TomD, you are delusional. Seeing as there is no end in sight to this quagmire, and the neocon tyrants are searching for more wars, I suppose every soldier in the military can assume he is on permanent active status, until he gets blown up by the daily carbomb of course.

Fact is, the neocon imperialists had no exit strategy, jumped into war without global support, and against international law. At present moment, arabs are lining up to fight against us, arabs who previously weren’t. That is an improvement on the “war against terror”? I think not, face it, you, the bible thumpers and the rednecks have been supporting a fascist tyrannical regime. Admit your mistake solemnly and start paying attention.

rich & kp, we shred the message, not the messenger at WatchBlog. Lay off the personal remarks.

I’m currently posted to Singapore, so I don’t get all the political entertainment, like Crossfire and HANNITY and colmes. Are GOP opinion leaders really beating the war drums over Iran? That’s as stupid as invading Iraq. North Korea is the only one of the “axis of evil” that has nukes. Toppling Kim should be our priority.

AP,

I understand your opinion about N. Korea, but China and Japan wont allow that dingbat to do much.
The problem with Iran working toward getting nukes…before they finish, Isreal will take them out, or Iran would bomb Isreal just as soon as they get one.

Either one likely would lead to WW3, scarey indeed!

MCS2003-
Not like this. Do you recall the last time the National Guard and Reserves were called like this? The Korean War. I have no aversion to calling up soldiers from the reserves in a time of national need, but this was simply these people making up for a lousy, undermanned war plan. It’s what makes me and the author of this article angry, really.

Technically, it’s not a draft, but we do have people who were not expecting to be called up for this war yanked out of their lives, and if that weren’t bad enough, kept in theatre beyond both their original tours of duty and also their original agreed tenure in the reserves and the national Guard.

The events described should disturb you, because they are convincing a lot of the best and the brightest and young and the able that signing up for these necessary services is certain way of getting them killed.

Now you can blame the media for that, but if the foundations of their stories are correct, then responsibility doesn’t lay in their hands, but their subjects. You don’t have to do something bad to get embroiled in a scandal, but it certainly makes it a hell of a lot more likely.

Are GOP opinion leaders really beating the war drums over Iran?

In the aftermath of the January Iraqi elections they were AP, but no more. Because, that calls for them to judge Iraq a contained, unqualified success, but the American people ain’t buying that ruse anymore.

Ironically, it’s also the fact that intelligence on Iran and North Korea’s nuclear capabilities are considered worse, than they were 10-15 years ago. Why? Because, the Bush administration has alienated nearly every Arab moderate state necessary to facilitate such operations.

In other words, how can you manipulate Intel, when you don’t even have some?

Heh. You make it up, of course. Who in the administration leaked intelligence about North Korea’s nuclear test to the New York Times? Intelligence that we now know is inconclusive.

And this is the scary thing. Over on this side we talked about the impact of sexing up the Iraq WMD intel. We said it amounted to crying wolf, and the next time Bush came up with intel on North Korea or Iran, the rest of the world would immediately discount it. As we predicted, news of Kim’s preparation for a nuclear test didn’t light any fires under other world leaders - not even South Korea.