Democrats & Liberals: Archives

Remember that the process for giving out Medals of Honor is pretty long. We can’t just give them out like Brownie Scout merit badges, because that cheapens the award. When someone is nominated for a MoH, there’s a vetting process that involves interviewing as many witnesses of the heroic act(s) as possible, so as to ensure the accuracy of the account. Then there’s a board that pores over the collected reports and decides whether or not the service member is deserving of the highest honor in the land.

So 2 years is pretty fair, methinks.

How about the fact that there’s only been one awarded? Why is the Pentagon underreporting casualties? Why are the bodies still being shipped back in the dead of night even though the election’s over? Why aren’t Republicans in Congress taking care of our returning vets?

And if Rita Moreno can get a Medal of Freedom, why not me?

AP,

I’d vote for you.

AP,

Just because people are not winning the Medal of Honor, it doesn’t mean their actions are going unrecognized. Not just combat related actions, either. For instance, a friend of mine recently won the Air Force Commendation Medal for saving someone’s life from choking in a deployed location.
Medals of Honor are almost always given posthumously after extensive review for very heroic acts of bravery. The frequency of their distribution should not be used as a measuring stick for the amount of recognition our troops are getting.
Btw, everyone who deploys in support of OEF and OIF gets one of the Global War on Terror medals. Most of the people I know who have deployed have received other awards as well.

From the bill:
(A) A discussion of the merits of maintaining for each of the Armed Forces separate policies for the awarding of comparable medals and decorations of the Armed Forces, together with a discussion of the merits of adopting uniform standards for awarding such medals and decorations.

I actually like this part. Some forces give out many more awards than others. I don’t think they should get rid of service-specific decorations, though.

(E) A determination of the desirability of adding a new class of medals, similar to the Purple Heart, to be awarded to military personnel who incur non-combat injuries in connection with performance of an official mission or duty during a combat operation in order to honor their sacrifice in service to the people of the United States.

This one’s going a bit far, I think. Did John Kerry write this part? ;-)

Oh, and you’re not getting the Medal of Freedom because you have nothing to offer the Bush administration politically. That seems to be the qualification for this one these days.

Please excuse my ignorance, but what are “OEF and OIF”?

LawnBoy,
I meant Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom.

So you’re going to tell me that none of the guys who saw action after the initial invasion in March/April 2003 did anything heroic? What about Fallujah? What about all the ambushes? The Brit who got the Victoria Cross earned his in an ambush.

With 12,000 guys wounded in action and another 1,500 dead, you’d think more than one of them was doing something worth a Medal of Honor.

I just hope our troops are getting the recognition they deserve and the administration isn’t sweeping these guys under the rug so Americans aren’t reminded that we’re still fighting. The fact that no MoH has been awarded for actions since the initial invasion makes my spidey sense tingle.

And why are we still bringing our dead back in the middle of the night? The election’s over. Let’s give these guys the honor they deserve.

Oh, and you?re not getting the Medal of Freedom because you have nothing to offer the Bush administration politically.

*Sigh* I bet Kerry would have given me one.

So you’re going to tell me that none of the guys who saw action after the initial invasion in March/April 2003 did anything heroic?

No, they all received their awards and recognitions. It’s just that the award of the MoH is a rare occurrence. It’s meant to be that way. The Medal of Honor is reserved for the select few who have performed extreme acts of heroism and bravery well beyond the call of duty. You seem to be suggesting that we give it out for show, as a token of proof that President Bush cares about the troops. This is wrong, as it cheapens the meaning of the medal.

I just hope our troops are getting the recognition they deserve and the administration isn’t sweeping these guys under the rug so Americans aren’t reminded that we’re still fighting.

About a month ago, I attended a ceremony to welcome some fellow guardsmen back from deployment. The Adjutant General of the New York Air National Guard along with the Lt Governor pinned them each with multiple medals. None of them were even involved in direct combat.

And why are we still bringing our dead back in the middle of the night? The election’s over. Let’s give these guys the honor they deserve.

I not sure what you mean here. Fatalities in Iraq are not going unreported. I find out about most of them simply by scanning the headlines each morning. Plus, here at WB there are always those who are ready to post the number of people who have died so they can use it for political spin.

*Sigh* I bet Kerry would have given me one.

Actually, Kerry would have given it to himself!

The Congressional Medal Of Honor
medalofhonor.com

The President, in the name of Congress, has awarded more than 3,400 Medals of Honor since the decoration’s creation in 1861.
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm

The criteria for the award became more strict after World War I. In all, 3,459 Medals of Honor have been awarded. Since the beginning of World War II only 851 have been awarded, 525 of them posthumously. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_of_Honor

464 awarded in WWII, 266 PH.

The grandest of all medals is not given out like candy and it does take alot time to confirm the actions. It’s not like the soldiers themselves can write their own medal requests, well, unless your a rich kid with political ambitions, of course.

The skills of our soldiers and the technology they possess along with the speed and success of the invasion makes it that much harder to earn also.

The skills of our soldiers and the technology they possess along with the speed and success of the invasion makes it that much harder to earn also.

So doing their job better, with more efficiency, and with better tools than ever before makes it harder for their bravery to be recognized? Is it just me or is there something fucked up about that?

Jarin
Please go and read how a soldier earns the Medal of Honor.

“The deed performed must have been one of personal bravery or self-sacrifice so conspicuous as to clearly distinguish the individual above his comrades and must have involved risk of life.”

No matter how bad the left wants to blame this administration for so few Medal of Honor being awarded, the fact remains that it is the most difficult medal to earn and is not given lightly.
The requirements do not question anybody’s bravery.

1) Search Google News for the second highest awards, Distinguished Service Cross, Navy Cross, Air Force Cross and you will find that they are being awarded. One Navy Cross awarded this week, one announced this week. There have been other Navy Crosses from Iraq for Marines — I have not heard of a DCS or AFC being awarded (but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened in the current news climate).

2) I agree with the thought that our combat superiority makes it less likely for soldiers to win the highest medals — the top two, MoH and the crosses above, go to soldiers who do great things in bad spots, spots so bad that they threaten more than just himself.

3) Search the news for “Silver Star,” the 3d highest valor award in all services and you’ll find they are being awarded at a good pace.

21 Apr 2005
SETH HETTENA
Associated Press

CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. - When his platoon was ambushed in an attack by insurgents in Iraq last year, Marine Sgt. Willie L. Copeland III took charge.

He led five Marines out of the heaviest fire, found cover and killed 10 of the enemy in close combat. When his commanding officer fell wounded, Copeland used his body to shield the officer as he administered first aid.

For his leadership and dedication to duty, the 26-year-old from Utah on Thursday received the Navy Cross, the Navy’s second-highest honor. Seven Marines have received the Navy Cross for Operation Iraqi Freedom through Jan. 10, according to the latest figures from the Marine Corps Awards Branch.

link

Iraq is simply not a place where people easily get medals. Especially due to the slated playing field, “all out battles” are few and far apart. Mostly we just bomb the crap out of them and sweep up the mess with tanks. Maybe they should make a medal for best street sweeper?

From The Bartlett Express of today, by Rick Jacobs:

United States Marine Corps Capt. Brent Morel, a 1994 graduate of Bartlett High School who was killed in Iraq on April 7 last year, will posthumously be awarded the Navy Cross for Valor in recognition of his heroism in the last minutes of his life. His family was officially notified on April 8, exactly one year to the day they learned of his death. The ceremony will be held on May 21 at the Marine Corps Reserve Center in Memphis.

The Navy Cross is the second highest award the Navy and Marine Corps bestows, and to warrant this distinction the recipient must risk their life in combat “so extraordinarily as to set this person apart from his contemporaries.”

…

Here are some excerpts from his narrative:

The ambush was initiated with a tremendous volley of RPGs, mortars, and automatic fire from at least ten machine gun positions.

Captain Morel quickly leapt out of his own disabled vehicle, gathered five Marines from the wreckage of vehicles on the road (including one Marine whose only weapon was a pistol since his SAW was broken after being shot out of his hands) and led a determined assault through a relentless hail of automatic weapons, RPG, and mortar fire into the heart of the enemy’s ambush.

With enemy rounds and explosions whipping around him, he leapt over the final berm and across a small access road with complete disregard for his own safety in order to

continue the assault and break up the enemy’s attack. This prompt and courageous action surprised the enemy and stalled the momentum of the ambush long enough for the six Marines injured in the lead vehicle to move to relative safety out of the kill zone. Captain Morel’s selfless act undoubtedly enabled this team to break contact, thus saving their lives. During this valiant effort, a withering burst of enemy automatic weapons fire mortally wounded him from five feet away.

Captain Morel’s extraordinary heroism, indomitable leadership, selfless devotion to duty, and bold fighting spirit inspired his men despite the numerical superiority of a fanatical enemy, reflecting great credit upon himself, and upholding the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and the U.S. Naval Service.

Zeke:

This is an uninformed comment on what is happening in Iraq: “Mostly we just bomb the crap out of them and sweep up the mess with tanks.”

Here is a good list of Milblogs (written by the fine folks who are protecting our butts from terrorist enemies) to check out — read long enough and maybe you’ll find some indiscriminate crap-bombing and tank-sweeping (though I haven’t seen any of that since the “end of major combat operations”…if Fallujah had been crap-bombed, there wouldn’t be so much of it left): Milblogs

Steve
You can’t post positive information from people who are there and know whats going on.
It has to be negative and from somebody who hates this administration in order for it be valid on here.

kctim: Okay, but you can’t fault a guy for trying! I figure most folks will enjoy reading a story of American heroism…All the best to all here! — skb

Didnt mean to sound so cynical Steve.
I’ve been there and tried it myself but soon found out that if its not negative its not true.
Just to make sure I’m clear, I loved reading the story and greatly appreciate you posting it.

Steve,

I have read the milblogs and from what I hear, the insurgents don’t have much to fight with. I was exaggerating in my above comments I grant you, but the fact remains that it is harder for soldiers to stand out in Iraq when the technology and superior training are doing the heavy lifting…

Steve,
Interesting, reading a few of the military blogs. Good account of the circumstances surrounding a soldier winning the Medal of Honor. (And ditto with the other posts, AP, there’s nothing sinister about the rarity and the slow process involved in awarding it).

Still, I find it disturbing.

Our sympathies and admiration are with that soldier for the courage and sacrifice he made. He died protecting his buddies. He died to… bring democracy to Iraq. He died a long way from home, in a foreign country, in the midst of a foreign culture, fighting against the people who lived there.

Was it worth it? Of course, protecting your buddies is worth it. But was it worth his being there in the first place?

Winning the Medal of Honor. I don’t know. It’s gripping reading. But I don’t enjoy it.

Bertolt Brecht once wrote this exchange of dialogue between two characters:

“Pity the country that has no heroes.”
“Pity the country that needs them.”

I’m always disturbed when I read accounts of war that dehumanize the other side. We know the name of our soldier, his motivation, his last actions.

All those ‘enemy’ who died ambushing our soldiers, who were they? What were their names? Why did they attack our soldiers? Were they protecting their city or their family, or sacrificing themselves in the name of a religion?What was their motivation?

It was them or us, I suppose. How did it ever come to that?

Well, I won’t go on in this vein. I’m sure many will dismiss enemy casualties, accept dehumanizing them.

But now I know some details about how that US soldier died. He was brave. He was courageous. He could have been my neighbor or co-worker.

No, I didn’t enjoy it.

I doubt a living, breathing man will ever get a Medal of Honor. BushCo and the Republicans have learned their lesson well. Any living MoH Recipient is a potential embarrassment waiting to happen. What happens if he gets up and says OIF is wrong? This is the lesson of Vietnam. Never give Troops a platform to complain. Medals of Honor does that. Silver Stars do not.

I am afraid only the dead can have the highest award…

phx8, it’s interesting that you should mention empathy for the “enemy.” Not too many people these days bother with such bothersome details of life… And that’s sad.

It’s interesting how many conservatives are still crapping all over combat vets like John Kerry. They’ve also ignored the veteran’s benefits aspect to this story, and a couple of those 2nd place commendations sound like MoH material to me.

And what I mean by bringing home our war dead in the middle of the night is the difference between this,

and this,

I think it’s shameful how some veterans are treated.
For example:
Mistreatment 1
Mistreatment 2
http://www.hillnews.com/news/052103/ss_widows.aspx ">Mistreatment 3
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/SWE412A.html ">Mistreatment 4
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=3784 ">Mistreatment 5
http://www.willpete.com/vetnews_digest.htm ">Mistreatment 6
http://home.comcast.net/~bfmuldrake/vietvets.html ">Mistreatment 7
http://www.jenmartinez.com/mt/archives/000689.php ">Mistreatment 8
http://www.post44.org/misc/fonda.html ">Mistreatment 9
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0LIY/is_10_89/ai_87509633 ">Mistreatment 10
http://www.vva.org/benefits/vvgvaclaims.htm ">Mistreatment 11
http://www.poynter.org/content/content_view.asp?id=40040 ">Mistreatment 12

Too much is made of Medals, since
it’s merely a symbolic way to say “Thanks”,
and rings hollow when veterans are
denied the benefits they should receive;
especially those that have suffered a great deal.

At first, I thought: “No, that can’t be true!”
To my shame and disgust, much if it is true.
Many veterans have been treated like crap.

The government is giving away billions to
other countries who despise us anyway, spending billions on pork-barrel, while some veterans
are suffering and can’t get proper treatment.
It’s disgusting how veterans have been treated.

While low-life politicians engage in wasteful
spending, pork-barrel, and ways to abuse voters
and the American citizens, you’d think the very
least they could do is take care of those that
have sacrificed much. But, NOOOooooo. They’re
too busy with their petty partisan bickering to
waste their time to do the right thing for the
veterans.

It is very revealing as to the true nature of parasitic politicians
that work hard to line their own pockets, while being unwilling
to lift a finger or be present to vote on the needs of the veterans who have
sacrificed so much.

I’m not sure why the time of day makes any difference as long as there is an Honor Guard present, and they are present in both of the photos you posted. The military operates 24/7.

…and a couple of those 2nd place commendations sound like MoH material to me.

There’s no such thing as a second place commendation. It’s not a competition.

We’re not in it for the medals, AP. No one, and I mean no one, plans in advance how to be a hero in combat. It’s not possible. We’re talking about completely unexpected situations and the split-second decisions needed to react to them.
I’ve never heard of someone complaining about being awarded a Silver Star.

Good Post, O.S.I.
I don’t think the veteran’s benefits problem is as big as some make it out to be, but I agree that a lot more should be done.

Traveler, if you’ll notice, the scene with the big brass band playing in broad daylight with quite a few dignitaries, friends, family, and well-wishers - and televised on BBC (that’s where I saw this particular ceremony) - is Britain honoring the return of it’s war dead from honorable service in Iraq.

The other is a US soldier being snuck back into the country in the dead of night with no ceremony other than a small honor guard and a couple snap-shots for the family so as not to embarrass President Bush.

BTW, watching the ceremony on BBC, one of the commentators off-handedly mentioned that Britain, which has a long history of soldiers serving and sacrificing overseas, would never stand for the way the United States rapatriates it’s fallen soldiers. He’s absolutely right that it’s shameful. I felt like I was like I was sucker punched.

My family has a long tradition of military service. I know about how medals are earned. And I know how crappy this administration is treating its veterans, most of whom are just so proud to have served that they’d never complain themselves about what’s going on.

And if you think it’s crappy too, you can tell your Senator to support the Democrat’s Senate bill S.11. Gen. Wes Clark (I’m sure you GOP veteran haters will crap all over him, too) is also trying to do something.

AP,

Most of our military (and civilian for that matter) ceremonies seem subdued compared to those in other countries, especially those with a long military history like Britain.
Speaking for myself, if a family member died over there I wouldn’t want a huge event when they arrived back, and I sure as hell wouldn’t want it broadcast on TV!
But like I said, as long as there is an Honor Guard there, it really doesn’t matter. The real ceremony comes later. You look at any of the funerals they have received and then dare tell me they (and their families) are not being honored by the military.

I have performed many funerals for veterans (none from Iraq, thankfully). Funeral honors are something the military takes very seriously. Everyone who has served in the military is entitled to, at the very least, Taps and a flag presentation. We do more whenever possible, especially for veterans. Everyone who has died in Iraq has received full military honors.

“On behalf of the President of the United States, the Department of Defense, and a very grateful nation, please accept this flag in honor of your loved one’s faithful and dedicated service to his country.” Not just empty words, AP. We don’t do these things for show.

AP
You are really digging on this one. Either you do not understand military protocol or you are just trying to create something for political reasons.
Both soldiers are represented by an Honor Guard detail, ours is not “small” as you said either. It consists of 8 individuals. The brits have 7 visible. Whats the big deal about that?
The band is a different story also. The brits are shown unloading the plane while ours are shown loading the fallen soldier into an ambulance. Do you really think the brit band followed each of their fallen soldiers caskets to the ambulance?
Rank also plays a part in how a Honor Guard detail is made up. What were the ranks of the fallen soldiers?
And how about geographic logistics? A plane leaving Germany is more likely to land in England during the day and in the US while it is night.

These pictures were purposely taken this way to be used against Bush. A very despicable thing to do for political reasons if you ask me.

These pictures were purposely taken this way to be used against Bush.

Of course. The vast liberal conspiracy, right? Talk about digging… I think it says a lot that you Bush-fans are bending like pretzels to make excuses for the way this administration treats our military.

The vast liberal conspiracy, right?

I don’t think that, since it’s obviously a conspiracy of one. You are the only one inferring that under Bush’s instructions our troops are not being recognized for their actions. I feel I’ve successfully made the case to the contrary. What really says a lot is that after 31 posts on the blue side, no one has yet agreed with you on the awards/recognitions issue, your main topic.

Talk about digging… I think it says a lot that you Bush-fans are bending like pretzels to make excuses for the way this administration treats our military.

I’m not. I’m just explaining to you how the military works. The methods we use for awards and honors are based on regulations that were in place long before Bush came on the scene. Of course, I’m hardly a Bush-fan so you probably weren’t referring to me…

Traveler, I know how the military works. It takes it’s orders from the Commander in Chief.

And frankly, I don’t know what’s going on on the blue side here. There are fifteen people signed up to write articles, but I seem to be doing most of the posting this month.

AP
It’s only as vast as the one from the right you keep talking about.

Why is it so hard to believe the facts when they are presented to you? This is not and should not be a political issue.
I would be more apt to believe what you say about Singapore than someone who has never been there, so then why can’t you believe when people who know what it’s like to be a part of the military and know how it works tries to explain the logical reasons, protocols, customs etc… to you?

Are you sure the A in AP doesn’t stand for aldous on this one? :)

AP,
If you had made this topic solely about veteran’s benefits instead of mentioning them in passing, I probably would have agreed with most of what you had to say about them. We probably all would have.
But groundlessly impugning the integrity of the military’s recognition system for political purposes is something I cannot and will not stand for. As a base Honor Guard member, I consider it a personal insult.

Listen Traveler, this is an issue I feel very strongly about, and judging by your personal reaction, you do too.

I can see where you’re coming from, and if the military wasn’t taking care of its own, this would be a far bigger problem.

But, go back and look at your posts. Do you really believe the troops are getting the recognition and honor they deserve? Are they getting anything like the public and official recognition they got from Gulf I? Are dependents - especially in the Reserve and Guard units - being properly supported? Do you really think our vets are getting the best support and care this country can provide?

I don’t think you do, and I can’t believe you’re even arguing with me. It’s only a knee-jerk negative reaction to anything written on this side that’s causing you to insist that everything’s fine.

Do you really believe the troops are getting the recognition and honor they deserve?

Yes, I do. I’ve seen it, as you have read.

Are they getting anything like the public and official recognition they got from Gulf I?

Not quite as much, but then again, that sort of thing doesn’t seem to go down very well these days. Look at the beating they gave Bush over a silly little thing like the “mission accomplished” sign.
Anyway, like I said earlier, we’re not there for show. Huge victory parades and the like would look kind of silly when the war is still going on.

Are dependents - especially in the Reserve and Guard units - being properly supported?

Most are, but we can do better. Family support is a very big thing at our base, but that isn’t always the case. The military needs to focus more on this issue with Guard and Reserve units who don’t have as much experience with deployments as ours does, which is most of them.

Do you really think our vets are getting the best support and care this country can provide?

They are certainly being supported, but I have already agreed with you that we can and should do much better. Like O.S.I. said in his post, there is a lot of wasted money that could be better spent on care for people who have served.

I don’t think you do, and I can’t believe you’re even arguing with me. It’s only a knee-jerk negative reaction to anything written on this side that’s causing you to insist that everything’s fine.

I haven’t insisted that everything’s fine. The only part of your post I have disagreed with is when you said that our veterans and casualties are not receiving the proper military honors. Plus, you have implied that the Bush administration is purposely refusing said honors. I think I’ve been able to prove that this is certainly not the case.

Now, do I agree with you that casualties need to be reported in a proper and consistent manner, that more attention and money needs to go toward family support, and that Bush needs to spend more on care and support of our veterans? Not only yes, but hell yes! That’s why you haven’t seen me arguing you on those issues.

proper military honors

Hmm… I think we’re talking about two different things. I’m talking more about like the way the press still isn’t allowed to cover repatriation. And I don’t mean something like live coverage of the Rose Bowl Parade. I wish you could have seen the way BBC handled it: brief, respectful, and appropriate. But they did cover it, which is more than the administration allows with our guys.

BTW, I’ve come off as confrontational because of some posts in another thread. I don’t care what party you belong to, it’s just wrong to crap all over vets. It pisses me off to see decent guys like McCain being called “Manchurian candidates” and good guys like Clark and Kerry being called dictators and cowards. And unfortunately it’s being done for political purposes by only one of the parties. Pardon me if I get all riled up about it.

And I still think - and IIRC you agreed - that the award process could be reviewed. Like I said, the fact that the only MoH awarded in Iraq was for an action two years ago during the initial invasion - and none during the insurgency since - makes me curious. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong, but it doesn’t hurt to do a review.

Are they getting anything like the public and official recognition they got from Gulf I?

Not quite as much, but then again, that sort of thing doesn’t seem to go down very well these days.

I think you’d be surprised. America made a big deal out of Gulf I vets because Bush’s Dad - a combat veteran himself - made a big deal out of them. It didn’t matter to him that some people opposed the operation.

If GW is keeping public recognition low-key because he’s avoiding a political debate on this operation, then shame on him.

AP,
I don’t know if your a veteran or not, and if you are, if you’ve been in combat or not, but as a Vietnam Veteran whose been in combat I can tell you that the last thing a person in combat wants to get is the CMH. Most of those awarded it are dead, and most soldiers want to stay alive.
I’m glad to see Bush isn’t cheaping the medal by handing it out like candy.

Ron, I totally understand that. On the other hand, there have been 12,000 wounded and 1,500 dead in the insurgency phase since the initial invasion. I’d hate to see those guys passed up just so President Bush can keep America’s attention off the casualty count.

Read the Silver Star commendations posted above. I think our guys deserve a lot more recognition than they’re getting. As I said, judging by my family, the guys serving are humble and just so proud to be serving their country that they’re not going to make a big deal about anything. They don’t ask for benefits or medals or even want them - but a grateful nation gives them.

American Pundit wrote:
|
| Listen Traveler, this is an issue I feel very
| strongly about, …
|

… sounds a bit condescending ?

I prefer pompous and overbearing. ;)