Democrats & Liberals: Archives

For some same and different reasons, Bert, I have no more desire to see the Democratic Party ascend to majority power in our government than the Republicans. However, I have to say, I agree with your assessment of the exchange today on the Congressional floor. It appeared R’s did not want to be confused, sidetracked or otherwise put out by the facts, the principles, or the issues of concern to American voters.

That said, I doubt if the roles were reversed, if the interaction today would have changed one iota, only the sides of the aisle in the exhange would be different.

Now that these voting problems have been latched onto we will be hearing the arguements from the losing side for eternity.
As long as people vote there will be errors.
It’s just funny to me how all of these problems weren’t problems until Al Gore lost the electoral vote.
I seem to recall hearing that he was really the winner because he got more of the popular vote. This time Bush received more of the popular vote and it isn’t good enough for the same people, who said it was, when it happened to Gore.

The campaigns are way to long, the ‘get out the vote’ effort is way too big, and the fighting after the vote has gotten out of control.

How is the number of voting machines decided that belong in a given area? Based on the number voting previously? I would say it is the fault of the ‘get out the vote’ effort if twice as many people show up and there aren’t enough machines. Especially if the officials were not forewarned and given a chance to add more machines.
Here we are trying to help set up other ‘democracies’ and we do anything we can to prove that there are major problems with our own - even when there aren’t in some cases.

Fix the major problems where they exist. Don’t blow the little ones out of proportion, and maybe we can vote in a President who will be accepted by all as legitimate.

Dawn,

You might wanna consider making a distinction between what are ‘voting problems’ or ‘errors’, and evidence of actual ‘election fraud’.

Al Gore wasn’t considered the real winner in 2000 because he won the popular vote, it was due to the independent recounts that proved he won Florida.

How is the number of voting machines decided that belong in a given area? Based on the number voting previously? I would say it is the fault of the ‘get out the vote’ effort if twice as many people show up and there aren’t enough machines. Especially if the officials were not forewarned and given a chance to add more machines.

Here is the evidence that precinct officials did anticipate a huge turnout, and how their repeated requests for extra voting booths were denied by Republican Election officials.

The efforts in Ohio, are an effort to fix the major problems. The ‘little ones being blown out proportion’? They are the basis for Don Rossi’s legal challenge in Washington state.

Bert - very eloquently said.

As you know, I have agreed with you completely about this from the beginning.
I was not surprised by the vehement hatred spewed by the Republican’s - I expected it. They don’t care whether we have fair elections, and they have no intention of fixing the broken election system since it is working so well in their favor.

The fact that all of the Dems did not stand together with the Democratic Black Caucus members and with Sen. Boxer makes me sick. The fact that so many Dems, including John Kerry, did not even show up makes me even more disgusted.
This failure of theirs to understand that it is not who won, but the fact that our democracy hangs in the balance is troubling enough to turn me completely away from the Dems in the future. I feel that those Caucus members and Sen. Boxer are all that are left of a party I have long volunteered and voted for - the best of what used to be the best party of all.
But being a true Liberal, I can no longer give my time, money, or vote to the Democratic ticket (other than Sen. Boxer) until they return to their roots. After their failure to put their votes behind their all their rhetoric, I really don’t see that happening any time soon.
(Sigh)
I’ll be going Green Party from now on.
Care to join me?

BTW - did you see any irony in the fact that yesterday they arrested Klan member Edgar Ray Killen for being one of the bastards who killed Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner in 1964 for promoting voting rights for black people in Mississippi?

Dawn

Now that these voting problems have been latched onto we will be hearing the arguements from the losing side for eternity.

I would tell you it’s the treatment that Bush and his allies give to the Democrats that causes more problems. If Bush were not so arrogant about slim victories, and trying to pre-empt inconvenient but legitimate challenges to their victories. They have created the impression among many that they don’t care what the results really are. If your opponent doesn’t care about the fairness and transparency of the system, then what good does it do to be passive?

You say as long as people vote their will be errors. The question is, to what extent? That attitude is an excuse for dysfunction. No party will willingly cede victory. But Bush was willing to leave half of America without a resolved final answer to the question of whether he was one, in order to gain office. There is something frightening about somebody who will treat the public’s vote as a mere means to the end of gaining power, and not the very thing that determines whether that power is deserved.

His victory was no landslide. He won the popular vote by two or three percent, the election by only 100,000. But he acts as if he has capital to spend. Bush is writing political checks his support in this country can’t cash.

You’re advocating low voter turnout, and excusing a lack of preparation on the part of election officials because you don’t want to entertain the possibility that Bush’s victory may not have been as unquestionable as you thought it to be. If you want legitimacy, you must respect the political value of legitimacy and not be in denial about those problems that threaten it.

I believe President Bush won by a landslide. He was elected by a majority of voters who loved him and wanted to see him win. John Kerry was voted for by a minority of voters, not because they wanted him to win or even because they admired him, but for many other reasons. Some voted for Kerry because they hated President Bush and others voted for Kerry for personal convictions, and those convictions differ as much as the schisms within the Democratic Party.

I agree, the Democratic Party must unify, but that is virtually impossible. It is a deeply divided party and has lost the beliefs it once stood for. I am a blue collar union worker, as was my father, and I can assure you the Democratic Party is not the party of 40 or 50 years ago. I am also a Christian, and I see a party that insists on becoming all things to all people. That sounds good, but is impossible to do because it causes the party to become as unstable as water. Quoting a bible verse out of one side of your mouth and defending gay rights or abortion out of the other will not win the Christian vote. That is a fact! Walking in a field with a shotgun will not change the fact that the Democratic Party would abolish the 2nd amendment if they could.

The reason John Kerry and many other democrats did not support the efforts of Barbara Boxer and certain congressional people is because they did not want the record of that support to come back to bite them in the rear at another election. That is simple truth. If Boxer was in an area where she could get beat in an election, she would not have opened her mouth in support.

Lastly, concerning the votes. There are other states where Kerry beat President Bush by a smaller margin than the Bush victory in Ohio. Why didn’t we hear the same cries from the Democratic Party, if they are so concerned about the rights of voters? Isn’t this country called the United States of America? Shouldn’t all political parties be concerned about the rights of all voters and not just the votes of their own? I’ve been around for a lot of elections and I was there when Kennedy beat Nixon and even though it was well known at the time that Illinois and Texas threw the vote to Kennedy, still there was no cry from the Republican Party. Nixon bowed out rather than put the country through a terrible ordeal. I believe the Democratic Party is showing their bitterness for consistently loosing elections, and all the talk or accusations or analysis will not change anything.

I have never posted a message on a blog, but I do like to read them. I am not an educated man and if it were not for a toolbar, you would see just how dumb I am. But I believe I represent a vast majority of everyday Americans, who are not stupid. We have cable news and the Internet and have mastered the ability to access news.

Dawn,
I hope you know that I have very little if any respect for you of all the main bloggers on here.

[Noel, the rest of your comment was deleted for critiquing the messenger, not the message. Please find another site to post your flames and personal attacks. —WatchBlog Manager]

Ohio Resident-
Landslide? 52% is not a landslide. It’s a slim victory in the popular vote. The fact that it came down to your state should demonstrate quite clearly that it was not a landslide. He won by a better margin than last time, but here was a president who once had much greater popularity.

The Democratic party cannot unify those who have been seduced by visions of easy government, easy war, and easy social redemption . We have a generation of people who have been taught to vote against their real interests in order to soothe fears and anxieties that relate to things they’ve rarely if ever experienced themselves.

This blue collar thing has become a joke. If saying that offends you, I’m sorry, I’m working class myself. But it’s the truth. The truth is that we’ve sold our rights and interests to politicians who promptly turn around and sell us out to special interests. We sell it for the promise of redemption from our sins, redemption no government can really give.

In the time they’ve had control, has this country become more moral, or less? More honest, or less? More courageous in searching for the truth, or more willing to leave dirty little secrets alone?

We’ve become a society run by a desperate kind of expedience, where it doesn’t matter that we got into a war based on lies, exaggerations and ignorance, or that we knowingly went short on troops when anybody who knew anything was telling us to do otherwise, or that our president has promised an end to the insurgency almost since it’s beginning. We accept Corporate finance malfeasance without any measure to really permanently deal with problem. We accept tax cuts we know we can’t afford. And why? Because we’ve forgotten the alternative measures of sacrifice, of integrity, of honesty. While you and folks like you worry about things like Abortion and Homosexuality, the whole rest of the gospel and Ten Commandments are being disregarded with the full cooperation of the Republican Party.

I’m tired of being told to sit down and shut up by people who aren’t doing their job. You’re not a dumb person, but you’re doing a dumb thing by supporting crooks and fools like George Bush. They carry their bibles and wrap themselves in flags, but they don’t wear their responsibilities or authority that well.

The problem is, they have their consultants shaping beautiful stories about them, declaring them leaders and what they do as leadership, and not doing what really makes somebody a leader: selfless choice, done with wisdom and intelligence. You don’t need Bush’s kind of leadership. I sense you’ve got more self respect than that.

P.S.- about Illinois and Nixon: Machine politics may have been involved, but it didn’t win Kennedy the election. He didn’t need Illinois to win the electoral vote. He was going to be president regardless of what Daley did or did not do. Nixon himself had no qualms about electoral chicanery. It’s what undid him in the end, remember?

All things considered, I think the Republicans have been trying to justify Nixon for so long they’ve become numb to the problems of what he did. They’ve lost their moral compass. It’s time to get a party back in power that can actually regret the actions of their people.

Adrienne, I know, having made the same decision years ago, how hard it is to leave your party. It is a big adjustment in many small ways that will keep coming up for awhile. I have my immense respect for your decision and the courage to do something with your convictions, rather than just sit back and complain.

Bert -

Al Gore wasn’t considered the real winner in 2000 because he won the popular vote, it was due to the independent recounts that proved he won Florida.

Due to the independent recounts, Gore won in situations where votes for more than one presidential candidate were counted. Bush won in situations where multiple vote ballots were thrown out, it is hardly conceivable to claim that Gore ‘won’ the independent recounts, much less that there is ‘proof’.

Here is the evidence that precinct officials did anticipate a huge turnout, and how their repeated requests for extra voting booths were denied by Republican Election officials.

From your cited article:

Sources close to the Board of Elections told the Free Press that Damschroder and Ohio�s Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell met with President George W. Bush in Columbus on Election Day. The idea was to discourage turnout in Democratic wards by forcing voters to wait in long lines at the polling places.

So, the writer of this article claims to know the purpose of some meeting occurring on election day? By the time election day rolls around, its a little late to be planning to discourage turnout, don’t you think? The voting machines are already out there, and it’s too late to start rolling out more.

The writer of that article gives no actual data concerning the voter turnout in Kerry’s strongholds, nor any other data indicating statistical correlation between voters per booth and voter turnout.

My point: I want every vote to count. I want everyone to have an opportunity to vote without major inconvenience. I think that irregularities ought to be investigated, but I don’t believe some guy with vague results is a reliable investigator. But, with the way things are, I don’t forsee republicans calling for an investigation, and I see some democrats hesitant also. What must be made clear is that the investigation is not to question vote totals or the legitimacy of the election, rather it is to ensure confidence in the voting process by the american public. I don’t know that there’s been a solid effort by proponents of investigation to quell the notion that this is not an attempt to undermine the legitimacy of Bush’s victory in Ohio and the nation.

Anecdotally, I’ve been writing my democratic senator for over a year now concerning the federal regulation of electronic voting machines, and how there must absolutely be a paper trail, only to be blown off. Just to illustrate that once they’re in, they’re not as concerned as they ought to be about public confidence in our selection process, the very process that gives them legitmacy.

Bert -

I got off track in the middle there. Your quoted source says nothing of anticipated large turnouts or denied requests for voting machines other than a nebulous allegation that Blackwell met with Bush on election day which somehow implies that they were scheming to stifle democratic turnout. Hardly considerable as ‘evidence’.

AParker,

I have linked to many articles contained on the site Free Press, which (if you’d bothered to look any further) have numerous more detailing the allegations concerning the fraud in Ohio.

Here is the article I meant to cite in my haste to respond to Dawn’s posting.

Wish all the complaining about voter fraud had taken place in Illinois and Mass. and Texas years back. I think the Republicans learned everything at the feet of the Democrats. Both parties are full of crooks.

Everything I recall reading said a recount in Florida would have gone for Bush. What is the truth? I doubt anyone will ever know. Especially when what is omitted most of the time is just where and what was recounted.

If you want the popular vote to decide elections, you sell your soul to LosAngeles, New York, Chicago, etc. Get the idea?

David:
“Adrienne, I know, having made the same decision years ago, how hard it is to leave your party. It is a big adjustment in many small ways that will keep coming up for awhile.”

It feels awful.

“I have my immense respect for your decision”

Thank you. But I honestly feel as though they’ve given me no other choice - it was either abandon my principles or abandon the party, and since its impossible for me to do the former, I have to do the latter.

“and the courage to do something with your convictions, rather than just sit back and complain.”

Well, as I’ve told you before, I’ve long worked for the Greens on the state and local level, so I guess it isn’t all that much of a drastic change, but it does make me sadder than I could have ever imagined.

Dee Lee,

If you want the popular vote to decide elections, you sell your soul to LosAngeles, New York, Chicago, etc. Get the idea?

Do you really think this is that much worse than selling your soul to Ohio, Florida, Wisconsin, Iowa, etc.? The current system makes only “swing-states” count. Living in Indiana, my vote hasn’t counted in ages — and probably won’t, unless Evan Bayh runs for President.

Personally, knowing that everyone’s vote counts equally would make it easier for me to sleep at night.

Bert et al

I am glad all this is finally over. One thing I think is important to point out. In order for there to be the kind of voter abuse and fraud you talk about in Ohio, you must assume a widespread Republican campaign to cheat in the elections. You must also assume that a lot of Democrats were complicit in that and that they managed almost all of it in secret. Lot’s of people would have to have been involved. How is it that none of those people have cracked yet and told all to some tabloid?

I don’t have personal experience in Ohio, but I worked to reelect President Bush in the Virginia. I even took two weeks of personal vacation time in late October and early November to work full time. I volunteered to canvass neighborhoods, drive people to the polls, deliver yard signs and run information booths. These are low-level jobs, but they make a difference. About canvassing, my instructions were to knock on doors and ask the person to vote for Bush. If he/she said they would, we thanked them and offered a ride to the polls. We wanted to make sure Bush supporters knew that they had the support of their neighbors.

If they said they were voting for Kerry, we thanked them for voting and said I hoped they would change their minds. That was the extent of our intimidation. Kerry supporters who knew our method sometimes asked if we would offer then a ride to the polls. Our answer was, yes because we thought voting was important. No Kerry supporters actually called me on Election Day, but I would have driven them. That was the extent of our suppression. People kept on stealing Bush signs and I had to replace many of them. We were specifically told never to interfere with any Kerry signs. If there was a Kerry sign in a public place, I would put a Bush sign next to it if I had any extra. I never took down any Kerry signs and I never heard of any other campaign worker that did.

One reason Bush won was the millions of ordinary people like me who made sure their neighbors knew that local people supported George Bush. There was a difference between the Kerry people and us. First, we were all volunteers. Second, we were usually local. Third we traveled in small groups. Forth, we were ordinary citizens, not the usual activists (I never did this before).

The Kerry people tended to rally. A hundred of them looked impressive shouting and carrying signs. Meanwhile a hundred of us were walking the side streets, talking one-on-one. I think we see which worked better. It also seemed to have slipped under the radar of the media, who evidently can’t understand that 100 determined people talking to neighbors is worth more than 100 people rallying to beat Bush and congratulating themselves on their prowess.

Perhaps I was misunderstood. I realize President Bush only won by a few percentage points, but his victory was a landslide compared to those that voted for Kerry. In that the 52% were in favor of Bush and totally supported him. On the other hand, those that voted for Kerry were not all for Kerry; they had many reasons to vote for Kerry, but no common denominator. A vote for Kerry because you hate Bush is not support for Kerry; it is a vote against Bush. I’m sure Kerry would have loved to get the same kind of common support that President Bush received. My point is that the Democratic Party will never have that common ground, because it is a party of angry people.

Concerning unity: those that supported Bush were not seduced by visions. We knew perfectly well the price that was being paid for not only our security, but also the freedom of a nation. I will personally say, I support the man and am proud to call him my president.

I am not offended because I am a blue-collar worker, but I am offended at the idea my redemption from sin was bought by any other price than that which was paid at Calvary.

“I perceive thou art in the gall of bitterness…” Acts 8:23. The democrats have always declared their tolerance of others. Is that true or not? If that is the case, why so much Christian bashing? There is a trend among liberals to slander and demean anyone who does not believe the way they do. A perfect example is Senator Zell Miller. He was a democrat throughout his entire political career. Yet when he pointed out the faults of the Democratic Party, he was blasted as a religious idiot, a traitor, and many other slanderous names. Are liberals gods that can tell what’s in a person’s heart by what he carries? I suggest no more than one can tell if a person is patriotic because he wraps himself in the flag.

I believe it is your right to stand up and speak. That right is found in the 1st amendment and was paid for by the blood and sacrifice of many people over the past 200 plus years. But, I believe it can be done without so much anger. The 1st amendment also guarantees freedom of religion. I believe that not only means freedom of worship, but also freedom to worship or believe without being slandered or called names.

“I am glad all this is finally over.”

What is over? Nothing has been done about election reform and the Republican’s have made it clear that they will ignore these problems. That’s all they’re good for these days - creating or ignoring problems.

AParker,
Florida was never recounted at all because the supreme court put a stop to it - a completely unconstitutional decision. But if you want proof that he actually won, all you have to do is look at this page from the US Civil Rights Commision Study:
link text
Dubya won by the narrowest of margins - a fact which would have completely changed had not so many black voters been illegally disenfranchised through the machinations of Katherine Harris and Jeb Bush, or had so many ballots thrown out as spoiled - through no fault of those voters.

If anyone wants to read Conyer’s ‘What Went Wrong in Ohio’ report, here is link where you can download the full PDF:
link text
No doubt another US Civil Rights Commision Study will come out a year or two from now which will provide another document full of concrete evidence and proof showing all the disenfranchisement and numerous other problems which happened in Ohio during this past election.

Here we are The Crime has officialy been voted at america’s biggest houses and assemblies, but this time you (we) have prooves. All of this made me realise that america is the last place in the world where you can apply or even find democracy at these difficult times, but this was only a battle among so many others … Hope is there, americans have fought for democracy in the past giving their life to it, now you can say that democracy had never ruled your country before and maybe one day it will but if only you knew all the ways of the republicans you might have fought on the same line … this is sure to notice for next battle. Life is a jungle ! You can only use every ways and manners your society let you to win an election. Fact is that you gentle democrats lost against evil republicans !!! why is it that fundamentals of democratic vote is so simple and an election in america is so complicated and confused ? The reason is that Democracy never ruled america anyhow, just because secretly american politics never beleived in Democracy, your society (and modern world) relies on secret and dark rules. But Democracy is something you can’t run away democracy will be like a tsunami from now ! You know the whole world have watched your election and the facts in ohio and elsewhere, everybody knows from now, you can’t go back ! you d better stop the war and go home.
A long and difficult battle is on now, rep have full administrative power, but democrats have the glory, let the future reverse evil into freedom. You can do it and even if it looks difficult you have thousand of ways to legaly and peacefully fight to destruct this gross misfunction in modern society, may the world look better in a couple years thank you in advance.

Adrienne,
Eloquent posts by you, David, Bert, Stephen, and others. The conciliatory attitude of many Democrats such as Kerry is distressing, to say the least. The Democratic wing of the party, Dean, Boxer, et al, is becoming marginalized into permanent minority status. Like you, I’ve voted Green in local & state contests, but there seems to be little point in supporting the Democrats on a national level anymore.

Relatives just finished an extended stay, and one of them is a hard-core Republican. We’ve spent countless hours debating politics; he’s articulate, intelligent, well-educated and well-travelled, so those debates have always been fun, if occasionally overheated. This relative is an immigrant, and well-connected with the upper class of another country. He recently re-visited this country, and was shocked. They don’t just dislike Bush; it’s gone much farther than that, now; they hate Americans. Considering the source, I was not pleased to hear it.

Yes, it’s anecdotal, and I’m not going to provide links or even name the country.

I see our country sliding down a slippery slope towards fascism. The government creates pretexts, lies, and invades Iraq. The blame is placed on bad intelligence from the CIA, and it’s officers are purged, with no investigation whatsoever of political decisions behind the policies. The energy industry and a few others drive public policy. We, the United States of America, run a concentration camp, routinely torture our enemies, drop 500 lb bombs on cities, fire artillery barrages into cities, and so on. The Right Wing clamors to withdraw from the UN, withdraw from international treaties, withdraw from the non-Enlgish speaking world in general, and the Bush administration seems to be leading the charge. Belligerent nationalism is becoming the rule, with a strong flavor of Christian fundamentalism driving it.

Normally I refrain from commenting on religion. For the record, I’m a Buddhist. (Yes, I served as a B-52 Bombardier on nuclear alert- my own personal way of making sure Dommsday never happened, insofar as I could prevent it). In addition, I’m in the top 2% for income, speak more than one language, travel, and am well-educated, though many of you may conclude my opinions suggest otherwise. The sad truth is I don’t fit into the country that this United States is becoming. I’m not ready to leave just yet, though I suppose it may come to that, especially if there’s another invasion & an attempt to draft my son or daughter. But it’s easy to see how the hatred & violence between the Christians and the Muslims, the fascism, and more, may make my position in this country untenable. And thanks to those of you who would like to invite me to leave sooner rather than later.

Well, I’m a minority of a minority by most means of measurement, and I think you’re right, Adrienne. It’s time to fight the good fight, and go with the Green Party.

The Glorious Lost Cause

The Democrat fridge is sounding a lot like the old Confederates (also Democrats, come to think of it) who couldn?t accept that they had lost in the Civil War. They spent the rest of their lives explaining that they didn’t actually lose the battles, that per capita they were stronger and that they fought harder for their glorious cause. This persistence sense of grievance demonstrates that some Democrats can really hold a grudge, even when they objectively don?t have cause.

I mentioned above why I believe Republicans won. While Dems were marching at rallies, Republicans were walking the neighborhoods. Republicans out- organized Democrats and beat them at their own turnout game. Democrats got their people to the polls. More Democrats came out than ever before. The only problem was that there were even more Republicans. Democrats did a very good job. Unfortunately this time very good only got them a second place finish.

It is hard to give it your best and still not win. It is natural that some people will feel cheated and that many will actually convince themselves that they were cheated. Barbara Boxer even cried about it, but you notice than none of the other Democratic senators joined her. They know better.

The Confederates lost at Gettysburg, no matter how they tried to explain it. It was thier “high water mark.” Just like the Democrats lost in Ohio. Some things in history are definitive whether the loser chooses to acknowledge it or not.

Jack,
Yes, and as a history major, you’re well aware that history is written by the winners, and that the winners aren’t necessarily good. You’re on the winning side, no doubt. These years are your years in political terms. Supporting the Greens makes sense to me in terms of the most serious single long-term problem facing us, namely global warming. Because, through your posts, I respect you, I’ll sign off for the night by simply urging you to take a good look at the direction this country is going, and leave it at that.

The Kerry people tended to rally. A hundred of them looked impressive shouting and carrying signs. Meanwhile a hundred of us were walking the side streets, talking one-on-one. I think we see which worked better.

I would be curious to see if you have any hard data on that, Jack. I canvassed the streets here in Arkansas, joined by many out-of-state volunteers. So many people showed up to work the phones at the Kerry HQ that they had to be turned away.

There seems to be a mindset among people (e.g., you)that since the Democrats lost, they must have done everything wrong. Maybe it just wasn’t our/their year. (I’m still not sure whether I am a Democrat.)

You never change beautifull winning ways ! How did the rep win in 2000 if numerously there were more ballots for Al Gore in 2000 in Florida ? Fact is these ways have been spreaded all around the united states in 2004 and i think this time the crime was bigger with several type of fraud wich may even have increased popular vote more than 3 millions ( or 5 or 10 ), it s easy when voting machine are not people’s machine but private rep’s machine with no paper trail. Reality is just so far from what we beleive we don’t even want to think about these casualities. Another thing is that you can’t always blame one candidate or few people when you realise how wrong the system works, i beleive the first one to blame is the entire american people for not willing a democracy as it intends (nor like in Ukraine) People in your country keep on being divided, automatically so why ? Because of desinformation, because of corruption, because of your society’s malfunction. When i look in any rep blog i can’t see any present blog talking about whats happenning everyday (maybe i didnt find one you could give me one rep blog to see what they think about the election) i think the rep voters don’t give a shit to what’s happenning they just feel the winning effect and sure don’t want to learn all of this …

Story will say like another one in the past bush made a coup d’etat by stealing the presidency to the american in 2000 and stole the senat in 2004 and named judges in the biggest courts and placed his army all around the earth and played with all the new technologies of war, spent all the munitions Clinton made in order to built brand new ones to install a war economy over your country and to manipulate every single inch of economy , to manipulate the people by sending the youngest ones in war battles by teaching the poorest ones fake History and fake religious thoughts and all of this in the name of GOD … please

By the way, Jack, I love the therapeutic, patronizing tone of your comments about Democrats. It must be hard for someone as thoughtful as you to grapple with the fact that the President you support is an incompetent demagogue. ;)

Adrienne -

Florida was never recounted at all because the supreme court put a stop to it

Florida was recounted, at least twice in 2001.
salon.com
Results show that Bush would have won with a recount of only the counties Gore requested, as well as statewide when only undervotes were allowed, votes with impartially punched chads, etc. And that Gore won with ranges from 70-200 when ballots with multiple presidential votes were allowed. So it is not clear who won in Florida, since differing standards of measure would determine the winner.

Ohio Resident-
It is only a landslide if you had low expectations for your candidate. Bush had the lowest expectations possible. He was elected by a few thousand votes. He only improved somewhat, but not nearly as much as one might have expected a year or two in advance of the election. That long ago, a true landslide was all anybody could have expected. For him to win the presidency by one state alone once more should indicate how far he has fallen in popularity.

Anger can be a good common ground, especially in the face of Bush’s outrages. What suprises me is your lack of outrage. Our nation was not vindicated in its decision to pre-emptively strike Iraq. We had a toy gun to our head, an utter fake. There are no weapons to parade before the world, no terrorist camps to show videotapes of, no big terrorist groups to parade as prisoners at the finish of our invasion.

The war is counterproductive, having created the very threat we sought to destroy. We wouldn’t have a potential failed state on our hands if we hadn’t invaded. Sure, Saddam might be in power, but for the time being, he’d be the more manageable evil. Regardless of Saddam’s pathological dishonesty, he at least knew to dance to our tune, if only to get us off his back. The terrorist that have replaced him simply don’t care.

We were not told the truth by Bush’s government. He did not seek the full truth, he did not relate it. He pulled dishonest tricks to gain the approval of many in this country. He vastly overplayed the threat from the country we invaded, and vastly underestimated the consequences of our invasion and our shortage of manpower and allies. He painted you beautiful images, but how real have the become? Did the insurgency end with Saddam’s capture, Iraq’s return to sovereignty, or the year’s worth of continuation of the same strategy? Did his insistence on the existence of the weapons make them suddenly appear before inspector’s Kay or Duelfer? Did his committment to security in Iraq translate to the securing of the explosives in Al Qaqaa, or any number of hundreds of other depot’s Go look at the death tolls for December, and see whether our storming of Fallujah, months after its loss, did much good.

I say these things not to be a pessimist, for I believe better days can still be ahead, but to wake you up to the problems we are dealing with right now. What has he done to earn your pride, other than try? Sooner or later, you have to find something else to rate his score by than just points for effort.

I am a Christian, and I believe Christians are obligated to shed their illusion in favor of the truth, to face the hard realities of what they have done, and what they are about to do, and make decisions of good conscience and wise council, rather than just impulse and self serving conviction.

I do not believe I have the right to censor and restrain other’s ridicule and disagreement with me. I can only make my best argument, and settle for the peace within. The first amendment allows for the expression of anger and ridicule, along with everything else. Do not underestimate the value of anger in a democracy, because any matter of evil can be done to a people who have lost their capacity for outrage and disagreement. If somebody speaks untruthfully, as far as you can tell, don’t try to silence them, challenge them with what you know of the truth. And be willing to consider the possibility of your wrongness. Otherwise, what good are your ears? We cannot merely listen to only those who agree with us, and do us flattery.

This was an especially significant race precisely because both sides did a good job of energizing and getting their voters out. They did a good job getting millions of new Democratic voters to the polls. When all the money and time is counted up, the Bush and Kerry camps – broadly conceived - spent about the same amount of money, and Democrats did a better job with 527 Corporations. The mainstream media and the Hollywood establishment seemed certain that Kerry would win. My kids watching Comedy Central and MTV were certain that Bush would lose. As a Bush supporter, I often felt very lonely, until I talked to people individually or in small groups. Kerry supporters managed to portray being pro-Bush as not cool and many Bush supporters kept silent in casual political discussions among acquaintances. That silence was misinterpreted as support. I think that is one reason Democrats were so surprised by the outcome.

I am not sure how Republicans got more people out. My impression was that the strategies were slightly different. As I mentioned, my observation was that Democrats relied more on group events and professional or semi- professional activists, sometimes from out-of-state. Republicans did a better job on what might be called mass customization.

My experience with the Bush administration has been good. The Bush team is competent and hard working. As I have written on many occasions, I liked Bill Clinton. He was certainly a brilliant man and wonderfully charismatic. I would prefer to Clinton as the face and voice of the U.S. presidency (of course, Ronald Reagan was the best). The problem with the Clinton administration was follow up. Bush has been slow off the mark on many occasions, but his administration has been much better at follow up. There are many mistakes, as in any administration, but the Bush team follows up methodically. Think politics, where we can literally keep count. The Republicans have managed to win most of the political battles since Bush became president. You might not like tax cuts, but Bush got them through. You might thing prescription drugs, no child left behind or the patriot act are bad ideas, but Bush got them through. In the 2002 elections, Bush was criticized for expending political capital, but he increased Republican numbers in the House and Senate and he did the same in 2004, the first time since 1936. He doesn’t do bad for a incompetent dunce. If you ever bought a used car, you probably noticed that the salesman may have appeared to be a little naïve, even slow witted, but when you walked out of the salesroom, he had convinced you to think you won by doing what he wanted.

Jack-
I think you may be right about why Democrats were so surprised. I think in some way, what got the Republicans out in greater numbers is that they’ve been taught to fear Democrat authority to an almost pathological degree, on any number of levels. Democrats were afraid of what four more years of Bush would bring. Republicans were absolutely petrified of the idea of a Democrat becoming president.

But in terms of the passage of laws, I think the explanation owes more to a strictly enforced Republican orthodoxy that bears little dispute. it’s the character of this orthodoxy that convinces me the high point of Republican leadership is about to come and go. Cracks always develop in such orthodoxies. Even now, with the election won, candidates are going in different directions.

Rob C. re: 1/8 You bet I think leaving those cities to be the determinate would be worse than what you suggested.

I will say, though, that efforts to pro rate the electoral vote of a state by the ratio in the popular vote in that state has some merits. I think someone already worked it out in a few states and the results didn’t change much. Don’t know if the whole country was examined.

I don’t have a lot of faith in either party, by the way, but I could never vote for a candidate that thinks the heart and soul of this country is in Hollywood. Yuk. Not too impressed with using ethically challenged Carol Moseley Braun as a convention speaker. Yes, I know you all can come up with your own list on the opposite side.

My wife and I have been involved in politics for almost fify years-at all levels- from doing the scut work as volunteers to being paid and being a state party official. We have seen the inside of winning and losing. It doesn’t take much to blow an election. The Democrats blew it. Start at the top. Just like George the First can take the blame for his loss.

I’ll bet the next election will be fascinating.

Adrienne,

I certainly understand your frustration, as I have heard the same sentiment expressed here and there, over the past few days. However, and to be blunt, I feel your reaction is a bit drastic, so I’ll attempt to put the events of Thursday in more pragmatic terms.

We accomplished a lot, but more importantly, we did it without causing significant harm to our cause, and our party. We received the most attention and media coverage for our concerns, and were able to articulate and enter much evidence into the Congressional record. Even with the full support of our Democratic members, we could not accomplish much more, only damage our fight in futility.

It was not necessary for many more Democratic to join Sen. Boxer and the Congressional Black members, because we had enough to trigger the objection - a wise and calculated move. As honorable a decision it is to stand up and formally object to compelling evidence of election fraud in Ohio, we know all to well the Republicans’ penchant for distorting such innocent acts (John Kerry’s debate comments on Mary Cheney), and using them against our candidates.

Third, as damning as the evidence is in Ohio, we’ve not yet succeeded in proving them legally - a threshold immune to the manipulations and denials of the GOP. Sec. Blackwell and his co-horts have succeeded till this point, to obfuscate and avoid accountability for their actions. Yet, by no means are they off the hook.

This was a mere battle in an ongoing war. We are building a case of fraud in Ohio against the Republicans and the Bush administration, which will be entered into evidence alongside manipulated Intelligence, no WMDs’, subverting the Geneva Convention which triggered torture, etc - with the American people as jurors. I’ve read three posters so far insist Bush won Florida in 2000, asking us to accept this truth because they ‘…recalled hearing somewhere’ or ‘…everything I recall reading’, yet not offering a link to such evidence. Not doubt, the widely cited NORC Florida Ballots Project would be of no use to them.

AParker, from your link:
“Completing two partial recounts that Gore unsuccessfully pursued in court showed Bush maintaining a lead ranging between 225 and 493 votes — meaning Bush still would have won if the U.S. Supreme Court had allowed a partial statewide recount to continue.”

This spells it out pretty clearly. Gore did not get the recounts he asked for - and the Supreme Court put a stop to all recounting of any kind. Like I said, the people of Florida never did get to finish an official recount.

Again from your link:
“Under any standard that tabulated all disputed votes statewide, however, Gore erased Bush’s advantage and emerged with a tiny lead that ranged from 42 to 171 votes.”

But this does not take into account all the voters who were illegally purged from the voter rolls by Harris and Jeb, which would add many thousands of votes for Gore from black voters in the state of Florida.
Gore won in 2000 - it really is that simple, and tragic.

I really would have loved to have seen Al Gore as our president - he’s just the kind of man I adore - slightly geeky, yet strangely sexy, with truly brilliant intellect and a long-held interest in preserving our environment.
The complete opposite of Curious George, our resident smirking chimp who doesn’t give a shite about anything but making his friends rich.

I wish I had the chance to reply to phx8 and Bert right now, and I intend to, but it’ll have to wait until sometime tomorrow afternoon - I’m a very busy lady at the moment.

Jack,

If you are talking to me about the used car business, I did say that Bush is a demagogue. I’ve never been personally suckered by him, however, so whether he dupes his marks by playing dumb or by some other method I can’t really say. (Unless his goal was to get me to vote against him and give money to Democrats. In that case, he played me like a flute!)

Adrienne,
I’m still fuming over the silence from most Democrat Senators and Representatives. I’m not the least bit surprised that Blackwell stonewalled the inquiries into voter fraud; however, I think it was always understood that forcing the election into a vote-by-state situation would have resulted in a Bush win; the point was to stand up for the integrity of voting in the first place. If Kerry & Edwards & McAuliffe, et al, can’t stand up for themselves, I’ll be damned if I’ll lift a finger for them.

Bert, you suggest it’s a political ploy by Democrats to avoid the fallout of the voter fraud inquiry. Perhaps. I’ll believe it when I see it.

Btw, I haven’t seen this mentioned in any posts, but if the non-farm payrolls increase by more than 122,000 jobs next month, the Bush administation will finally be in positive territory for job creation. Nice work, Republicans. Nice, after 47 months. But hey, Bush is the first president to ever encounter a recession, right? Oh- another stat- the US population grew by 11.3 million over the past 47 months. And the Dow might actually be above water for the Bush years by next month! Maybe.

Gosh, what a great president!

He may just be the first two-recession president.

The action in Congress last Thursday was just another example of the Democrats not being able to accept the fact that they lost. Whenever they lose an election, they have to come up with a reason that the election was stolen from them. John Kerry lost because his ideas did not resonate with a majority of Americans. When the Democratic party finally figures out that the ideas that resonate with the Hollywood elite are not the same that resonate with the average American, they will have a chance to win an election. Until that time they will just continue to blame their electoral defeats on fraud.

Listening to Barbara Boxer speak on the floor of the Senate and complain that voters had to wait in long lines and some of them left because their legs got tired shows how much Americans take voting for granted. In other countries people will wait in line for many hours and maybe even days to exercise their right to vote. In the United States we will wait in line for hours for concert tickets, sporting event tickets, or to ride the Matterhorn at Disneyland, but we will not wait in line to vote.

The Democratic party and those who left the line to vote in Ohio, need to re-evaluate their priorities.

Nathan,
“When the Democratic party finally figures out that the ideas that resonate with the Hollywood elite are not the same that resonate with the average American, they will have a chance to win an election.”

What ideas of the Hollywood elite are you referring to? Britney Spears, and ‘let’s just trust the president?’ Barbara Streisand? Boy, I hope not! I really, really dislike her. But seriously, could you be a little more specific?

In Oregon, we vote by mail. No lines, a paper trail, and very difficult to defraud. Long lines for voting, or hackable, paperless voting machines make no sense whatsoever, and should be opposed by every one of us.

Bert:
“We accomplished a lot, but more importantly, we did it without causing significant harm to our cause, and our party.”

But they could have accomplished so much more! Had they all shown up and voted in solidarity, they would have made Dubya’s Republican cronies be the ones to vote him into office, further evidence against the wrongheaded idea that Dubya has some sort of a mandate in his second term. This would have also meant he was elected by the Supreme Court the first time, and by his cronies in Congress the second. They gave him more political capital than he deserves to have.

“We received the most attention and media coverage for our concerns, and were able to articulate and enter much evidence into the Congressional record.”

But can you imagine how much more attention and media coverage would have followed had they voted as a block? I have the distinct impression that had they done so, the Republican’s wouldn’t have been allowed to ignore our broken election system because of all the attention that forcing the vote to the floor would have garnered.

“Even with the full support of our Democratic members, we could not accomplish much more, only damage our fight in futility.”

I don’t agree. I think it was a golden opportunity they missed. And I really don’t think they had anything at all to lose at this point.
In my opinion, Democrats are begging for some boldness and conviction from their leaders (wasn’t that was the lesson of Howard Dean?), and they further alienate the true liberals in their party when they don’t back up their rhetoric with their vote.
For too long they’ve been worrying about the damn swing voters - rather than their base, little realizing that being fearlessly bold and living or dying by the power of their convictions tends to have an almost magical effect on an undecided person. I know this on a personal level, because I have actually swayed the opinions of swing voters myself - each time through no-nonsense discussion and bold, strongly-worded questions.

“It was not necessary for many more Democratic to join Sen. Boxer and the Congressional Black members, because we had enough to trigger the objection - a wise and calculated move.”

I guess I’m rather sick of calculation, Bert. I just want to see Dems fling off their timidity and take a real risk for their beliefs - much like they did during the black civil rights movement. And I think fair elections is an important enough reason for them do so in complete solidarity.

“As honorable a decision it is to stand up and formally object to compelling evidence of election fraud in Ohio, we know all to well the Republicans’ penchant for distorting such innocent acts (John Kerry’s debate comments on Mary Cheney), and using them against our candidates.”

Screw their distortions.
I’m so angry that John “count every vote” Kerry didn’t even show up. He damn well should have been after we worked so hard to get him elected. And on behalf of that hard work, he should have been the one prepared to unleash the most powerful and relentlessly scathing speech of all. Shake those Republican’s up! Make them look like the bastards they are!

“Third, as damning as the evidence is in Ohio, we’ve not yet succeeded in proving them legally - a threshold immune to the manipulations and denials of the GOP. Sec. Blackwell and his co-horts have succeeded till this point, to obfuscate and avoid accountability for their actions. Yet, by no means are they off the hook.”

I agree with you there. I hope something comes of it - but somehow I doubt it will. Republican’s are so good at avoiding things these days.

“This was a mere battle in an ongoing war. We are building a case of fraud in Ohio against the Republicans and the Bush administration, which will be entered into evidence alongside manipulated Intelligence, no WMDs’, subverting the Geneva Convention which triggered torture, etc - with the American people as jurors.”

You’re right. That’s why I want all the Democratic leaders to treat it as such, not just a small minority made up of the best of them.

Bert, I hope you won’t take my disagreeing with you here the wrong way - I think your posts are very intelligent, and as you should know by now, I have enormous respect for the fact that you keep writing articles on this subject.

phx8 - I don’t have time now to follow up with my reply to you - but let me just say - YES! I agree with what you’ve written in both of your posts!

Uh, sorry about all the underlining in that one reply - only the word _begging_ should have been underlined. Don’t know how that happened, since I did follow the formatting guideline.

I will make this my last post in this Censored Forum (that is, if the Blog Wardens relax their Double Standard enough to allow it).

To phx8, Bert Caradine, the MIA Rocky, and of course, the estimable and formidable Adrienne: how can I tell you how much I admire and respect your intellect and morality in fighting the Good Fight? As for me, I will continue to use my Vote to vote for the Most Liberal candidate with a chance of actually being elected. (This is merely good strategy, which is well-validated by Games Theory [although this is no Game], and - as demonstrated by the wee lad with his finger in the dike - staving off the Greater Evil is just as valid as fighting Evil on the offence.)

But the time has come for More: the time for Talking is over; the time for Shooting is now. Just as Thomas Jefferson advocated, in many reasoned letters to his co-founders over a numbner of years, this nation might well need Bloody Revolution every once the while, in order to keep its Liberties in place, and its Leaders honest. “The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants: it is its Natural Manure.”

What am I advocating? Why, the violent overthrow of any Abusive Government which is Destructive to the ends of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit Of Happiness, of course - just as in our Declaration Of Independence:

“…whenever any form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a New Government … when a long train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government…”

Let’s not mince words, people: what Jefferson was saying (and continued to say, for all of his life) was that *ANY* Government which violates the Freedoms and Liberties of its People had no right to exist; that when men strive to usurp and deny the sovereignty of the People, they become tyrants, whose blood is fit only for spilling by patriots.

I was recently censured by the UberMeisters of this “forum” in an overreaching display of favouritism and partisanship which clearly reveals the Double Standard “here”; can anyone deny that there is a similar Double Standard operating in this Nation? How does Lewis “Scooter” Libby get away with violating Federal Law by peddling the Real Name of an undercover CIA operative to sleazemeister Robert Novak, in order to punish her husband for Telling The Truth about nonexistent African Uranium? How does Halliburton get away with closed-door no-bid contracts for postwar “reconstruction,” after a war created by the administration which offers them to it, when the lead in those deals is the former CEO of Halliburton, still holding millions of dollars worth of Preferred Stock Options? How does a the “Land Of The Free” institute the provisions of the “Patriot” Acts, requiring libraries to reveal which Books their borrowers have been reading to what Colin Powell referred to as a Private “Gestapo Office” in the Pentagon? How do they get away with imprisoning a Citizen, a photographer, for taking a picture of Regent Dick Cheney as he walks off an airplane in Denver; confiscate his film and his camera; interrogate him for hours; build a dossier on him; put him on the “No Fly” list - all for taking a photograph of a Public Figure in a Public Space?

Pay attention, friends: they do it the same way that WatchBlog chooses to maintain “Law and Order” - that is, selectively, and with Extreme Prejudice.

“First, they came for the Communists; but I was not a Communist - so I said nothing. Then, they came for the Social Democrats; but I was not a Social Democrat - so I did nothing. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, but I was not a Trade Unionist… And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew - so I did little. Then, when they came for me, there was no one left who could stand up for me.” - Martin Niemoeller

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” - George Santayana

Today, captainozone: tomorrow, phx8 - ?
How many Divisions has Adrienne?
Will they ban the letter ‘Z’ from appearing here as well?

You bet they will: just as the National Government has done and is doing in case after case after case. Selectively, depending upon who is Speaking Too Freely; depending upon who is being Too Controversial.

So you have (as is so often the case in life) Two Choices, WatchBloggers: you’d better Watch Your Step: don’t step on any toes; don’t rock the boat - or you can take up arms, and, by opposing, end the tyranny.

We all know what Messrs. Jefferson, Henry, Washington, et al. would have done, don’t we? Because they Did It. Now, it is up to you; it is up to *ALL* of Us: the ones who won’t stand for being Silenced; the ones who truly value Liberty more than Convenience or Approval.

“They that give up Essential Liberty to obtain a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty, nor Safety.” - Benjamin Franklin

As I leave you, unwilling to further participate in Partial Freedom Of Speech, I urge you to consider these Truths, which I hold to be Self Evident. And to Fight!

phx8,

I am not sure why you state that voting by mail is difficult to defraud. This seems to be a very easy way to commit voter fraud. One could forge their spouse’s signature.

With regards to the electronic voting machines, I feel that we should get rid of them. The same people that can’t use an atm will not be able to figure this technology out.

I wrote:
“Kerry didn’t even show up. He damn well should have been after we worked so hard to get him elected. And on behalf of that hard work, he should have been the one prepared to unleash the most powerful and relentlessly scathing speech of all. Shake those Republican’s up! Make them look like the bastards they are!”

I just realized how rude and unreasonable that last sentence must appear, so let me clarify - I meant the bastard Republican’s sitting in the House and Senate, not Republican’s in the general sense.

Captainozone:
“Today, captainozone: tomorrow, phx8 - ?
How many Divisions has Adrienne?
Will they ban the letter ‘Z’ from appearing here as well?”

Well, at the top of the blog it does say ‘message not messenger’ so if you’ve ignored that, as well as repeated warnings by the manager, you can’t really act surprised, y’know?
I have to admit, I think that parameter is what makes Watchblog one of the better blogs - as it keeps the debate serious, rather than degenerating into the usual brutal mudslinging so common to most others.
It is odd though, last week in the red column I was called a fat, lazy, hypocrite. That was pretty personal I thought (and untrue), but nary a word of disapproval was given to that poster, nor to me when I called them a moron in response when it was obvious they weren’t going to be slapped for their comments.

Anyway Cap’n, I’m rather sorry to see you go - you’ve cracked me up several times, and some of your posts did contain several valid and interesting points.

Adrienne, there is only one person, not paid, to oversee all of the articles and comments at WB. Some get missed. If you can email Editor@WatchBlog.com with the name of the article, name of commenter, and which column, I will certainly review it. —WatchBlog Manager —

“With regards to the electronic voting machines, I feel that we should get rid of them.” The same people that can’t use an atm will not be able to figure this technology out.”

I agree we should get rid of electronic voting machines, not because of the difficulty of using them, but because many have no paper trails, currently can be easily hacked, and are made, distributed, and owned by private companies - all things which practically guarantee that voting fraud can, and most likely will occur (or already has).

Well Adrienne,

I gather, I’ve made some progress in putting things in what I believe are a realistic perspective, but one thing you said struck me as pivotal. When I cautioned about The Right’s ‘penchant for distorting such innocent acts, and then using them against our candidates’, your response was:

Screw their distortions.

Every Wednesday morning in Washington, representatives of almost every segment of the Conservative movement (including someone from the White House) meet to compare notes and plot strategy. The discipline this reflects, has been the key to their success in gaining power.

If The Left had this kind of discipline, someone representing the gay/lesbian community would’ve been in such a room, and prevented the Gay Marriage issue from becoming a pivotal wedge in the November election. And, someone in the room would’ve made the convincing argument, that what we achieved on Thursday was the best we could’ve accomplished, strategically.

To be blunt Adrienne, what you so desperately wanted to happen was not wrong - but, it was reckless. What you so strongly and righteously believe is right and the truth, you must understand cannot be guaranteed to turn out that way, under the current state of politics.

An article from The Nation Online What Liberal Media?, has The Weekly Standard Bill Kristol admitting the ‘Liberal Media’ myth was a ruse to deflect Conservative failures.

Many of the Democrats you’re castigating are well aware of this unleveled playing field, that is frustratingly unfair, but the game will go on.

Bert:
“Every Wednesday morning in Washington, representatives of almost every segment of the Conservative movement (including someone from the White House) meet to compare notes and plot strategy. The discipline this reflects, has been the key to their success in gaining power.”

Yes, I have heard a lot about this for quite some time, but since this is a well known fact, the question becomes, why haven’t the Democrats attempted to do something similar after all this time? Lots of people are saying ‘Frame the Message!’ but nothing has been done by the DNC. They can only blame themselves for not doing that, don’t you agree?

“If The Left had this kind of discipline, someone representing the gay/lesbian community would’ve been in such a room, and prevented the Gay Marriage issue from becoming a pivotal wedge in the November election. And, someone in the room would’ve made the convincing argument, that what we achieved on Thursday was the best we could’ve accomplished, strategically.”

Like I said, I think it is time for a little bold fearlessness, because it seems to me all the Dems keep doing is REACTING to the bashing which is being diabolically orchestrated by the Bastard Neo-Cons of the GOP, rather than doing a bit of bashing and rhetorical unmasking of THEIR high crimes and misdemeanors.

This is exactly what I meant by Screw their Distortions. You’ll never shut them up, but you can certainly fight fire with fire, no?

For instance: Swift Boat Vets. Handled all wrong. As soon as these guys came forward, Kerry should have held a press conference, asking any and all reporters to give him any sort of question they wanted to ask about his service in Vietnam. Questions totally unscripted and unfielded beforehand. He could have immeditately killed the controversy, while calling attention to the fact that not only did he actually go to war and risk his life, unlike Dubya, but that he was entirely capable of standing up for himself and taking questions on the fly, also unlike Dubya.
Someone at the DNC should have seen this coming, after all he had to deal with those guys during his previous senate race. So why didn’t they have an immediate response all ready to go?

I’m very tired of asking myself these questions, and I’m tired of trying to understand why Democrats don’t ACT, instead of react. Aren’t you?

“To be blunt Adrienne, what you so desperately wanted to happen was not wrong - but, it was reckless.”

Perhaps I am the reckless sort, but you have to understand where I came from. I grew up lower middle class, surrounded by extremely rich, coddled and spoiled kids with nasty, disparaging tongues and insufferably superior attitudes - and I learned early that you _have_ to fight back, and make them look like the fools they often are, through quick thinking, and with unsparring amounts of wit and sarcasm.
I think the DNC needs somebody in charge who had to grow up in a similarly hostile atmosphere in order to combat those GOP strategy meetings! :^)

Adrienne,

‘Bold fearlessness’ is a good thing, but couple it with the smarts of knowing the game your playing - and how to play it well - and your ready for big time politics in this country.

Yeah, let’s take the Swift Boat Vets, for instance. The Kerry campaign rightfully ignored them initially, because investigations of their charges by the New York Times, Washington Post, Boston Globe, Newsweek and Media Matters (to name a few), found them to be outright liars! But, Fox News had John O’Neill on almost every night, while replaying their TV ads nonstop. The other cable networks soon followed suit, because perpetuating the controversy - instead of correctly dismissing the Swift Boat Vets and their claims as smears - were ratings winners.

Again Adrienne, you start from the false premise that the American people will come to the right conclusion, when provided all the evidence. But, what if all that evidence does not get to them? What if the evidence is distorted and manipulated?

Although the decision was made a month ago, it was announced today that after spending tens of millions of dollars, the futile search for WMDs’ and nuclear weapons in Iraq have been suspended permanently.

So, why did 22% percent of Fox news viewers believe WMDs’ had already been found?

Bert:
“‘Bold fearlessness’ is a good thing, but couple it with the smarts of knowing the game your playing - and how to play it well - and your ready for big time politics in this country.”

But that is exactly what I was saying - that I don’t think the DNC knows how to play the game the Republican’s are playing at all, let alone play it well.

Instead of moving ever farther toward the center ideologically, as they have been, and how some are suggesting they should do even more, I think they need to return to their core principles (you know, the ones rightwingers mistakenly like to call socialist, but what we know to be decency, equality and fairness), while at the same time, learn to fight as low-down and dirty as the GOP.
By this, I don’t mean they should start making things up - with the Republican’s that isn’t even necessary - but boldly announce their crimes in strong terms, and dammit, use the word LIAR against their smears wherever appropriate.

“Yeah, let’s take the Swift Boat Vets, for instance. The Kerry campaign rightfully ignored them initially, because investigations of their charges by the New York Times, Washington Post, Boston Globe, Newsweek and Media Matters (to name a few), found them to be outright liars!”

Kerry had encountered these guys before and already knew they were outright liars. Imagine how powerful it would have been if he had immediately come out and announced this fact _before_ the papers had! In fact, that should have been the first thing out of his mouth at that press conference I previously suggested.
He should have called them Republican Saboteurs, and then said something to the effect that it was a shame that these guys had decided to allow politics to come between the brotherhood of soldiers, especially after fighting in a war like Vietnam.

“But, Fox News had John O’Neill on almost every night, while replaying their TV ads nonstop. The other cable networks soon followed suit, because perpetuating the controversy - instead of correctly dismissing the Swift Boat Vets and their claims as smears - were ratings winners.”

Right. And this was exactly the reason not to ignore it. I knew as soon as I saw the first headline that they were going to latch onto to this story - didn’t you? I mean, its just too juicy, the idea of his fellow soldiers coming out against him.
And mention of John O’Neill should not have been left out of Kerry’s press conference either - he should have said that the guy has been on a _vendetta_ against him ever since he first became Nixon’s mouthpiece against his winter soldier testimony.
You see? Tie the name O’Neill to the name Nixon - which is not only the truth, but immediately discredits him and calls up the ghost of Watergate.

“Again Adrienne, you start from the false premise that the American people will come to the right conclusion, when provided all the evidence.”

No, Bert. I start from the premise that people can be fed disinformation on television, and that the only way to combat that is to consider this possibility beforehand and meet it directly head-on when it comes, rather than running away from it, or dismissing it as unimportant simply because it isn’t true.

“But, what if all that evidence does not get to them? What if the evidence is distorted and manipulated?”

It is the job of the DNC to make sure it gets to them. Press conferences are a way to _make_ news, while having a question thrown at a candidate from a reporter from a place that candidate just happens to be will always appear to be _reacting_ to news that others have made.
Do you see what I mean?
And getting back to the idea of boldness - I really think that
using strong words against distortions that have been whipped up by your opponents is an almost guaranteed way to get a sound-bite that will be played over and over on television.

“Although the decision was made a month ago, it was announced today that after spending tens of millions of dollars, the futile search for WMDs’ and nuclear weapons in Iraq have been suspended permanently.”

I know, it took them another whole year to confirm what David Kay said. They were all wrong. Idiots.

“So, why did 22% percent of Fox news viewers believe WMDs’ had already been found?”

In my opinion, because Fox News works on behalf of the Republican Party as a disinformation machine geared to appeal to people of lower intelligence.

Kerry has been very gracious throughtout this entire process.

Any speculation on what he will do next?

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