Democrats & Liberals: Archives

William,

Just last week, Bush was roundly criticized for reacting slowly to the tsumani disaster, and then pledging an embarassingly small amount of US aid. (Well, I was embarrassed anyway). And amazingly enough, after a few days of criticism, Bush actually increased the amount of aid by a factor of 20 over the initial proposal.

Please read the 4 articles below. You will see that the President was not slow to act and there was no samll amount pledged. The costs associated with the deployment of the US Navy ships, planes, personnel and supplies alone will far exceed the initial pledge you refer to.

http://usinfo.state.gov/sa/south_asia/tsunamis/tsunamis_archive.html

The release dated 12-26 titled U.S. Ready To Help Nations Affected by Bay of Bengal Earthquake

At the same site you will see a release dated 12-28 titled U.S. Relief Teams, Aid Heading to South and Southeast Asia

Floating Warehouses of Supplies, Equipment Head to Asia

http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=sbc-web&tab=&p=%22Floating+Warehouses+of+Supplies%2C+Equipment+Head+to+Asia%22

Navy providing some help to countries hit by tidal wave — may provide more

http://www.kesq.com/Global/story.asp?S=2736548

Just last month, a brave soldier, with some some help from brave embedded reporter, asked Rumsfeld a very direct question about the lack of properly armored vehicles. The mainstream media picked up this story (finally), and in the ensuing storm of criticism, guess what? it was discovered that, amazingly enough, the army actually could do better at armoring up-armoring those hummers.

I do not have a problem with the fact that the question concerning armor was asked, only the way in which it was asked and reported.

You see in the military there is a chain of command. This chain is there for a reason and should be followed. The soldier in question should have taken any questions directly to his superior officers and then up the chani of command, not directly to the secretary of defense.

The brave reporter you reference is indeed a brave man to go to a war zone to report the news. The problem with this news story is that it was reported as news. You see, it is not the job of the journalist to make news only to report it. This reporter sought out a soldier to ask a planted question to Secretary Rumsfeld so that he would have a big story to report. For the sake of honesty and journalistics ethics the report should have reported this story as an editorial rather than a news story.

In both of your points above the media’s liberal bias is evident. In the first, the media either did not bother to look into what was actually being done by the president before reporting or choose to cast a negative light regardless of the facts. In the second, the reporter planted a question he knew he could use to disparage the administration.

Kirk, much as I’m tempted to respond (you really believe that soldiers shouldn’t have asked Rumsfeld questions at the Q&A session set up expressly for soldiers!?), I don’t want to re-open either of these issues, which have both been beaten deep, deep, into the ground.

My posting was about language that’s been used to deflect criticism here lately. It’s so over-the-top. Complain about “liberal bias” if you like (as I see it, the media has a conservative bias, I complain about that all the time).

Just don’t demonize those that complain. Complaints are healthy.

It’s really good that more hummers are being up-armored, and gripes about who posed the question and why (for transparent political reasons) is just so not supporting the troops. Isn’t it worth having that armor out there, even if Bush’s polls go down a point or two for a month or two?

And it’s really good that the US upped its ante a bit. And Japan followed suit, even better! If the PR ends the Iraq war 48 hours earlier, it’ll be a profitable investment.

I believe I am responsible for 2/3 of the offending posts, so let me explain a little. It is very easy to find fault and a lot easier to be right after something has happened then before. I am getting sick of the unrelenting negativity about things that aren’t so bad and are sometimes quite good. I mentioned economic growth, Afghanistan, unemployement etc as things that are actually much better than we would have anticipated.

Complaining is not a new thing nor something confined to the left. Bill Clinton did a good and competent job as president, yet nattering nabobs of negativity constantly followed him around.

It reminds me of a story that I will put this in a separate paragraph in case the manager thinks it is inappropriate or off color. It is not aimed at anyone in particular, but illustrative of a general problem. A guy is sitting at a bar. He orders a beer. A twelve-inch man appears and spills it. He tries to get some popcorn; the little man dumps too much salt in it. This goes on until the guy next to him inquires. The first guy explains, “I found a lamp and a genie gave me one wish. I asked for a twelve inch p***k and he has been with me ever since. Sometimes I feel like leaders have that problem.

There is no indication that Bush was shamed into giving more. It just is not the way the U.S. government works. The people on the left complain that Bush is famously immune to criticism by the world community. How could he be shamed by the UN? He missed a PR opportunity, that’s it. U.S. aid increased appropriately as news of the extent of the tragedy became clearer. Does it really make sense to anyone to rush out and make statements and promises before you know what you are stating and promising.

In my posts I never criticized the nature of the question about armor and was glad the question was asked. I did wonder about the journalist who staged the theater. I think that is a valid concern. The ends sometime justify the means, but you have to walk very carefully on the slippery slope.

I wrote a little on the other side why some of the whining annoys me. Mostly it has to do with the perfect foresight people claim to have in hindsight. They are always telling the president what he should have done, as if they knew at the time. What I wrote on the other side fits here. If you all are so smart, why aren’t you rich? With that kind of judgment and foresight it should be very easy to make money in stocks or real estate. Predicting the past is easy. The future is what gives us all trouble.

To those accusing the journalist of “theater”…

Was the end result not positive? It revealed that we could do more for the troops, and pushed us in that direction. How is that not a good thing?

Great movies are theater, too, but many of them also make valid, important points. What’s so bad about a little theater to expose a problem that has been swept under the rug?

ceejayoz

Re theatre

As I wrote the end sometimes justifies the means, but we have to walk carefully on that slippery slope. I agreed that the result seemed to be good, but ends and means are tricky business. You delegate morality of choosing which ends justify which means.

This is not a fascist state, in which the leaders are above criticism.

What the hell is wrong with you, Cohen!? Haven’t you read the great Ann Coulter’s “Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism” - ? Why, she says right on Page 292: “The inevitable logic of the liberal position is to be for treason.” Hmmm… The name “Cohen” is a Jewish name, isn’t it? I wonder if the Heimat Sicherheitsdienst - er, that is, *Homeland Security Department* - shouldn’t know about your postings here… It’s well known that the Jews have always been Troublemakers: that’s why Bush 2000 Election-Challenge Manager and all-around Great American James A. Baker said, “F*ck the Jews; they don’t vote for us anyway.”

It is also by the people - by we, the people of America. America is a representative democracy, …

Come on, Cohen, get with it! This is a Republic. Look: R-E-P-U-B-L-I-C - see? As in, “REPUBLICAN” - rule By and For Republicans. Man, for some sort of hotshot Media-Elite Jewish Intellectual, you aren’t very well edumacated, are you?

… and the men and women in Washington that run the government are our representatives - they are there to represent our views and our values.

Yes of course, just as Tom Delay and Jesse Helms and Strom Thurmond and Newt Gingrich and Trent Lott have always represented the views of all Right-Thinking, Patriotic Americans! Geez - talk about hammering away at the Obvious…

I don’t know about you, Cohen: putting forth these Radical ideas of yours about personal Freedoms and the “right” to criticise our beloved American Government could lead to Civil Unrest, or even worse! You’d better be careful - oh, waitaminute: there’s a really good rerun of “Friends” on tonight, and I just have time to duck out to the Wal-Mart in my Hummer to pick up some Wonderbread and Cheez-Whiz to go with my Miller Lite - gotta go!

captainozone’s post makes me sick to my stomach.

slepijay - you DO recognise Satire when you see/hear/read it, don’t you?

The 15 mil in relief was the amount it took just to get things rolling.

Maybe nitpicking would be a better term than complaining or whining -
I’ve never heard so much nitpicking as I do now, from either side, when the other is ‘in power’.

A badly needed and welcomed post re-familiarizing us all with the indispensable ‘ground rules’, we have earned as Americans. Well done, William!

So far, the only response you’ve gotten from the WB Red Column team, has been an attempt to downplay and sanitize the virulent responses, accusatory tone and deflecting attempts, of the incidents you described. The verbal assaults you quoted were not innocent acts of ‘wonder’, or a mere pondering of the ‘nature of the question’.

My next WB post includes yet another example of this kind of backlash, and how common sense, clarity and truth could be rejected out of stubbornness and avoiding accountability.

This is the Republican echo chamber that is at the foundation the current Republican juggernaut. Don’t expect it to wane soon. It just always make me laugh when the hypocrisy is exposed. I truly believe there’s something Freudian about it, those that shout the loudest have the most to hide.

As I recall it, it’s the soldier who sought out the Reporter not the other way around.

But of course, it’s more useful to tell the story of a soldier duped by an evil reporter, rather than two intelligent men, a soldier and a reporter, who collaborated on asking a question that needed asking.

Why is it that everytime something awful happens in the war in Iraq, or is revealed there, the Conservative/Republican response is to try discredit the media or the source?

It just seems to me the Republican response ot the mistakes and setbacks in Iraq has been to bury the problem in a sea of spin and convince people, even themselves, there’s nothing wrong.

I’m not trying to scare people into giving up on this war. Quite the opposite. I see this cultural propaganda war as parasitic on the real thing, eliminating useful choices, masking problems that need addressing, and miring the war in such a quagmire of uncertainty that our motivation and morale slowly decays.

Hard-nosed realism is needed for our country to keep the hard edge on its armies. Unmet needs, masked by spin, will blunt that edge. Discontent among the troops, masked by P.R., will build to the point where it saps morale and breaksdown discipline and respect for the chain of command. We got ourselves into this war. There is no use in trying to be cheap about what we do here, not now, when we’ve got our butt in the sling. We got to be crystal clear about the extent of the problems and their character. Any other approach invites further disaster.

William,

It’s really good that more hummers are being up-armored, and gripes about who posed the question and why (for transparent political reasons) is just so not supporting the troops. Isn’t it worth having that armor out there, even if Bush’s polls go down a point or two for a month or two?

My exact response to your original post was as follows.

I do not have a problem with the fact that the question concerning armor was asked, only the way in which it was asked and reported.

Where exactly in that statement do I say that it is not a good thing to have the armor or that I do not support the troops?

My point is that a journalist (and I use the term loosely in this case) is there to report the news not stage it. Once we allow reporters to start making the news rather than simply reporting on what has happened, what objectivity that does remain in the media is history. Your other posts that I have read on this blog show that you are firmly against teaching anything that may resemble creationism in Dover, PA. How about teaching against creationism in Journalism School.

The Society of Professional Journalists has a Journalistic Code of Ethics posted on their website that all journalists should follow and we as consumers of news should demand of reporters if we are ever to receive a truthful, fair and comprehensive account of events and issues. In this case the reporter violated at least three of the tenets of the code.

Test the accuracy of information from all sources and exercise care to avoid inadvertent error. Deliberate distortion is never permissible.

Avoid misleading re-enactments or staged news events. If re-enactment is necessary to tell a story, label it.

Distinguish between advocacy and news reporting. Analysis and commentary should be labeled and not misrepresent fact or context.

This reporter deliberately distorted the story, staged the news event and did not distinguish between advocacy and a news event. Exactly what the reporter’s agenda was only he knows. I have a strong suspicion that it was to harm the administration but per the code of ethics I will label that as only my opinion.

Stephen,

Why is it that everytime something awful happens in the war in Iraq, or is revealed there, the Conservative/Republican response is to try discredit the media or the source?

I personally have no problem with the reporting of the problems with the war effort. In fact I support disclosure of these events. These are things that regardless of how painful need to be known. So as long as a journalist is reporting the news and not creating it I want to see the reports.

Where I have a problem with the reporting is in the lack of reports on favorable or positive events in Iraq. Media outlets are more than eager to report on the number of homicide bombers or casualties per day, but we rarely hear of the good things our forces are doing in Iraq.

The Iraq Investment and Reconstruction Task Force (IIRTF) of the U.S. Department of Commerce website link is below. This site gives regular updates on the reconstruction efforts and steps being taken to shore up the Iraqi economy and infrastructure.

http://www.export.gov/Iraq/index.html

One of the links included at this site is the State Department - Iraq Weekly Status Report

http://www.export.gov/Iraq/pdf/state_wklyrpt_122204.pdf

This report provides information on current building programs, governance, oil production, and employment.

Just as the problems are important for the world to know so are the positive steps being taken in Iraq to rebuild from the war and more than a decade of Sadam’s neglect.

Once we start seeing these reports, world opinion will start to change and further support will be received. However, if as now these reports do not surface int he media one can only assume that the medai has a definite bias.

Kirk wrote:

This reporter deliberately distorted the story, staged the news event and did not distinguish between advocacy and a news event. Exactly what the reporter’s agenda was only he knows. I have a strong suspicion that it was to harm the administration but per the code of ethics I will label that as only my opinion.

That fact that you disingenuously claim not to know the ‘motivation’ of the reporter (you preferred the more accusatory ‘agenda’), exemplifies what William meant by criticism for ‘transparent political reasons’.

The body armor problem had been reported on many times before and mentioned numerous times by candidate John Kerry, obviously not garnering enough press to solve the problem. Yet, you insist this did not deter an embedded reporter from duping a soldier into risking disciplinary action, just to embarrass George Bush? You claim not to know the reporter’s agenda, but describing his actions as ‘staged’ and ‘advocacy’, are clues revealing you’ve already ruled out ‘altruistic’ as a possible reason.

The reporter’s only possible motivation Kirk, was out of ‘genuine concern’ for the troops he has obviously formed a strong bond with, which not surprisingly leads to extraordinary measures to insure their health and safety. I have suspicions about where you get your news, but I have read many stories about how troops have expressed their concerns to their Commanding Officers, repeatedly. Although, I know for a fact that Fox News is Rumsfeld’s news source of choice.

Where I have a problem with the reporting is in the lack of reports on favorable or positive events in Iraq.

I agree, Kirk. When Sunnis, Kurds, and Shiites all join hands and start singing Kumbaya, let me know. Or even when most of Baghdad has 24/7 power and they’re not drinking shit-water anymore.

Actually, there’s a really good article in the IHT about how the Kurds are forcibly ejecting Arabs from Kirkuk and what they’re now calling Kurdistan in northern Iraq. And they’re putting the reconstruction funds to good use building schools, shopping malls, larger security forces and other infrastructure - all in preparation for their secession. You gotta admire ‘em for tryin’.

American Pundit,

I agree, Kirk. When Sunnis, Kurds, and Shiites all join hands and start singing Kumbaya, let me know. Or even when most of Baghdad has 24/7 power and they’re not drinking shit-water anymore.

Are you saying that any positive event in Iraq short of complete and total rebuilding of the electrical grid or water system is not worthy of publishing? Or are you saying that you just do not care if there is any positive activity going on in Iraq?

Actually, there’s a really good article in the IHT about how the Kurds are forcibly ejecting Arabs from Kirkuk and what they’re now calling Kurdistan in northern Iraq. And they’re putting the reconstruction funds to good use building schools, shopping malls, larger security forces and other infrastructure - all in preparation for their secession. You gotta admire ‘em for tryin’.

There was also a good article in the Dallas Morning News October 31 that sheds further light on the situation you refer to. Since it is an archive that you have to pay for, I have copied portions here for your reference.

Q & A WITH ABDULRAHMAN MUSTAFA FATAHCome back to Kirkuk, governor beckons

By Gretel C. Kovach Staff Writer Published October 31, 2004

The northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk was once as rich in ethnic diversity as it was in oil, a cosmopolitan city of Kurds, Turkomans, Assyrians and Arabs. Then came decades of ethnic cleansing to remake Kirkuk into an Arab city. But when Saddam Hussein was overthrown, the Kurds started to return, and thousands are camped outside the city. Before the U.S. military restored order in the aftermath of the war, Arab families were hustled out of their homes at gunpoint by former residents.

You spoke tonight to about 150 Kurds here in the Dallas area,…What did you tell them?

Answer:…During Saddam Hussein’s Anfal campaign against the Kurdish people in 1988, he took them from their villages and cities. Most of them, nobody knows what happened to them. They are still finding mass graves, and 182,000 Kurds are missing.

Question: The Kurds were among America’s strongest allies during the invasion of Iraq. Do they feel that their concerns are now being ignored in favor of the Shiite or Arab majority?

Answer: Removing Saddam from ruling the country was the biggest thing to ever happen to the Iraqi people. All Iraqis are happy for their freedom. The situation of terrorism in Iraq does not represent what Iraqis think and feel about Americans. It’s just a few people - they come from other countries, and they’re cooperating with the old Baathist regime to do these serious acts. But they don’t represent all Iraqis.

Question: What about the Arabs who were moved into Kirkuk and their children who were born there. What will happen to them?

Answer: According to section 58 of the interim Constitution, they will be compensated to move out of the Kurdish houses so they can start their lives again.

Question: Is there a danger that the Kurds will break away from Iraq to form their own country?

Answer: No, the Kurds are asking only for federalism. I have never heard from any Kurdish leaders asking for independence or separation from the central government.

AP,

Would you agree that anyone forcibly removed from theri homes by a murderous thug dictator should be allowed to reclaim their home once that dictator is expelled? Or do the people that Sadam forced to relocate to Kirkuk have a right to claim the homes and land as their own?

Gee Kirk, isn’t that kinda like the Israelies building in the West Bank?

Rocky,

I must admit I have no idea what you are talking about.

And hey, here’s example number 3 - ethics in the house, or lack thereof - which hadn’t made it to WB yet, but was surely grounds for whining and kvetching:

WASHINGTON - House Republicans suddenly reversed course Monday, deciding to retain a tough standard for lawmaker discipline and reinstating a rule that would force Majority Leader Tom DeLay to step aside if indicted by a Texas grand jury.

Kirk,
The West Bank was given over to the Palestinians, yet the Israelies continue to build settlements there.

How many times has the “resistance” blown up the oil pipeline because we can’t secure it?

How many police stations have been blown up because there is no security in Iraq?

How many times has the road from the green zone been closed because we can’t secure it?

Are you starting to get the picture here, Kirk?

It doesn’t matter a hill of beans how much we rebuild, if it we can’t keep the “resistance” from blowing it up again.

Have we won the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people yet?

Rocky,

Nice try but not quite the same thing.

The West Bank was given over to the Palestinians, yet the Israelies continue to build settlements there.

You see, Israelis moved into the West Bank during a war in direct response to Egypt closing the Straits of Tiran therby blocking the Israeli port of Eilat. The link below will give you the background of the events leading up to the Six Day War if you are interested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

So, as you can see the West Bank being taken during a war is not quite the same as you own government under the direction of a murderous thug dictator expelling you from your home and forcibly moving someone else in.

I will say however, that I believe Israel is wrong to continue building settlements in the West Bank. That being said, I do not believe Israel should just turn over the West Bank to the Palestinians until such time as the homicide bombers quit attacking Israel.

If you bother to look back at my post you will see that I said all the negative events need to be reported no matter how painfull they may be.
The problem is that as long as the media ignores the positive events and all we hear is the negative we will never have a full picture of what is going on in Iraq.

Have we won the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people yet?

I would say that the majority of the people do support the US because of the improvements we are making in the infrastructure, employment, and the fact that Sadam and his goon sons are gone. No more rape rooms and mass graves to worry about.

The terrorists we see on the news every day are not the vast majority of Iraqi people. Many are foreigners and prior Bathist Sadam loyalists. We have taken their gravy train away from them and they have lost their power source. They are fighting to try and regain their life of priveledge at the expense of the majority.

I beg to disagree: Rocky, you are a fine man of your words and I look forward to serving with you on the Front Lines when the Revolution comes!

;~}

I try, Captain, I try.

“I look forward to serving with you on the Front Lines when the Revolution comes!”

LOL!!!
What are you going to do, hold hands and chant catchy slogans?
Its not the “evil” republicans vs. the “idiotic” left. Its us vs. them.

Stephen:
“It just seems to me the Republican response ot the mistakes and setbacks in Iraq has been to bury the problem in a sea of spin and convince people, even themselves, there’s nothing wrong.”

I agree. They seem completely incapable of admitting to any kind of mistakes.

“I’m not trying to scare people into giving up on this war. Quite the opposite. I see this cultural propaganda war as parasitic on the real thing, eliminating useful choices, masking problems that need addressing, and miring the war in such a quagmire of uncertainty that our motivation and morale slowly decays.”

Problems are all this administration has been from the beginning.
I think that from the moment chief weapons hunter David Kay said “We were all wrong. There were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.” we lost all reason for motivation and morale regarding the war in Iraq.
This is because it either meant that Dubya, and secretaries Powell and Rumsfeld, LIED about the global threat they claimed Iraq posed, and DECEIVED Congress and the American people, or, they were grossly MISINFORMED by their intelligence experts and would therefore, have to be judged as COMPLETE FOOLS. And, if they were really misinformed about Iraq’s weapons and capabilities, it meant they had STARTED A WAR BY MISTAKE - an had presided over yet another national security fiasco: (first the 9/11 attacks, then) the invasion of Iraq.
That’s it. They are either one or the other - Liars and Deceivers or Misinformed Fools Who Started A War By Mistake.

“Hard-nosed realism is needed for our country to keep the hard edge on its armies. Unmet needs, masked by spin, will blunt that edge.”

I think it already has. Which is perhaps why there was a moment of complete silence before those troops burst into cheering applause when that question about armor was sprung on Rumsfeld. They were _surprised_ that a real question which actually addressed their needs had managed to get through.

“Discontent among the troops, masked by P.R., will build to the point where it saps morale and breaksdown discipline and respect for the chain of command.”

There have been over five thousand desertions by soldiers already - those who were quiet about it and haven’t made a fuss have gotten on average about 2 months in jail, while those who have spoken to the media about their reasons for doing so are getting much longer sentences.

kctim - Oh come now! You might infer from my posts that I am a firm supporter of the Bill of Rights: each and every one of them.

Accordingly, as the Second Amendment was drawn up (as evidenced on the ACLU-link you put up in another thread) not to prevent Foreign Invasion, but rather to prevent Domestic Enemies of the Constitution and Civil Rights from creating a tyrrany, I am very well-armed indeed.

So come on down, kctim! Bring your Good Old Buddies with you; mind the LASER sights, now! ;~}

Adrienne (and All) - First, the Republicans made the word “Liberal” into an epithet. (They did this, incidentally, because of the naivete and laziness of the Left, who just sat back and let it happen, during the Reagan Regime. Of course, the Founders of this nation would have been horrified at this Reverse Newspeak, being as they were Liberal Progressives of their day.) Then, they proceeded to dupe and confuse the electorate with a series of falsely-named programmes: the “Contract With America,” “No Child Left Behind,” the “Clear Skies Initiative,” etc. They did this because they had failed miserably with the Direct Approach during the Nixon Administration. Oh, they still had plenty of things they desired to conceal entirely: Iran-Contra, Congressional Bills written entirely by Lobbyists, Delay’s “Contribution-Drives,” the Energy Task-Force Meetings, Closed-Door No-Bid Contracts to favoured companies, etc. - but, in general, they took a much more clandestine approach to things than they had done in the Good Old Days. With the success of their decades-old programme of dumbing-down the average American, through underfunding of public education and the creation of an easily-entertained consumer society, it is not beyond possibility that the exercise of naked power will begin to seem more and more attractive to them. The provisions of the “Patriot” acts have already diluted and jeopardised the Civil Rights and Liberties of American citizens; can anyone say with certitude that the imposition of Martial Law (“for the duration of the emergency”) is beyond possibility? With nearly one-third of American voters “scared stupid,” and given the pliability of the present Monkeymass, the concept of Dick Cheney as Absolute Dictator is not entirely fantastical. (After all, they’ve already Deified Ronald Reagan…) Now, more than ever, we must *ALL* stand up and fight for the principles of Freedom and Liberty that this country was founded upon: Dissent, Freedom of Expression and Assembly, Elective Responsibility, and proper Representation. The Electoral College must go; there must be No Conflict - nor the Appearance of any Conflict - of Interest when it comes to Voting Machines or methodologies employed in elections; Oversight and Confirmation must be rigorous and wide open; the Press must be more diligent and persistent in exposing corruption, abuse, and negligence. Failing this, this nation is as surely doomed as those which have fallen before it: in a Democracy, the People will always have exactly the sort of government they deserve to have…

“So come on down, kctim! Bring your Good Old Buddies with you; mind the LASER sights, now!”

That is the whole problem captian! Its not you vs. me or left vs. right, its us vs. them. Those who are taking away our rights. And its not just “evil republicans” either.

Now, you could continue and take the typical liberal stance of a socialist govt who has control over everything and I could try to adopt the typical neo-con stance that the left is ruining the country, keep blaming each other and continue to get nowhere OR all eyes could be opened and see where the real problem is.

BTW; “good ol buddies?” LOL!!!
They all think I’m a crazy right wing nut also.

YES
If I where to believe abc,cbs,nbc,cnn,msnbc,then we are losing the war and we are doing no good and that freeing these people was a waste and the personal stories from troops I know to be there are a flat out lie. THERE IS NOTHING GOOD HAPPENING IN IRAQ. That is a BIG load to swallow.
So once again they leave me skeptical of what they say! OH WHERE O WHERE HAS THE BALANCE GONE O WHERE O WHERE CAN IT BE!

FOXNEWS might be Rumsfelds only source espousing his dogma not like abc,nbc,cbs,cnn,msnbc,oh I forgot pbs just watch anyone of them and see the same news with a different face.

I thought war was supposed to be so nasty that it would crush the spirit of the opposing foe that hasn’t happenned yet or Fallujah would be flat land.

kctim - Okay, but please do consider taking another look at what Socialism really is - and what it is not. Modern Democratic Socialism has one fundamental principle: any government which does not serve the needs of its People should not exist at all. We have all seen the ravages of un-regulated Corporate Greed: Enron, Tycho, Global Crossing, Arthur Andersen, Halliburton, the S&L Scandal, etc. (There was, in fact, a huge debate between the Founders as to whether Corporations would be allowed to exist in America, because they had so damaged the English society and economy of that time!) Modern Democratic Socialism has nothing in common with the systems employed by the Soviets or Red China. It is in use in the UK, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Canada, Ireland, Finland, and a host of other countries - at least four of which rank above the U.S. on the Global Quality-Of-Life Index! So please, take another look: don’t confuse “Socialism” with “Communism” (which, incidentally, has never been practised on this planet). Thanks.

I swear you all have me in a tizzy. The ultimate solution must be an invasion by alien forces from another galaxy. Then we’ll have a common enemy. Friends. Right or wrong, keep hammering on the politicians. They are like certain elements in chemistry that only react to heat. It will ever be so, and I am pleased to see so many who are not complacent whether or not I agree.

Dee Lee, that was a very wise comment to make. Well said.

captian
Thanks for a meaningful reply.
Any govt which serves the “needs” of the people ends up controlling the people.
Govt should serve and fear the people, not provide and rule them.

“We have all seen the ravages of un-regulated Corporate Greed”
- The “ravages” of an out-of-control govt scares me alot more.

“please do consider taking another look at what Socialism really is”
- I have and it has nothing to do with what the US was founded on.
Thankfully, I will be dead and gone before socialism finally destroys this country.

kctim - a few quotes for you to ponder:

“There are none so blind as they who will not see…”

“You can lead a fool to Wisdom, but you cannot make him Think.”

Hmmmm, ok, I “pondered” them. But they make more sense when you put them into context:

“There are none so blind as liberals for they refuse to see.”

“You can lead a liberal to Wisdom, but you cannot make him think.”

You are painfully mistaken if you really believe that a liberal socialist govt would be any better than what we have now.
And get over all this neo-kkkon this and that kkkrap.
Grow some, get off the govt teet and quit blaming everyone else for all your problems.
Quit trying to destroy the very fabric that holds this country together, FREEDOM.

Just in case you haven’t been paying attention, Chucky, it’s the Right that is hell-bent on the destruction of American Freedom!

Even some Old-School Conservatives have expressed their concerns over the so-called “Patriot” Acts: remember, the definition of “Secular Humanist” is “Any Republican While Under Indictment.”

Here is the difference between the explanations for a Mistake made by a Liberal Administration, versus those offered by a Neo-Con Administration:

Liberal (Illicit Hummer): “It depends upon what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is…”

KKKonservative (Inhuman Abuse): “It depends upon what the meaning of the word ‘torture’ is…”

Let’s see: seven years of Peace and Prosperity under Bill Clinton and his Evil Penis (*SHOCK*! / *HORROR*!) vs. three years of Debt, Deficit, Disaster, and Degradation under Regent Cheney and Resident Bush… I know which scenario I’d rather be living in!

…the very fabric that holds this country together, FREEDOM.

Heh. That sounds like an oxymoron. :)

Hey, thats pretty weird captian, chucky? where did you get that from? My first name is charles, LOL!

“it’s the Right that is hell-bent on the destruction of American Freedom!”
- But yet you will excuse the left for the doing the same thing.
The 4th Amendment was basically abolished under clinton. The 2nd Amendment, property rights and personal freedoms also suffered heavy loses during the 90’s. This is the peace and prosperity that you talk about?

During the 90s, people on the right, as you like to say, were warning you about all the injustices that were going on and the rights that were being taken away. Instead of listening to the facts, the left kept saying “its only about sex” and chose to ignore those people.

Now to the present, the left is trying to do the same thing the right was trying to do in the 90s, only this time its the left being ignored. Why?
Because its all about what party is doing what and not about what is actually happening.

“It depends upon what the meaning of the word ‘torture’ is…”
- I would say killing 17 little American children by burning them to death is also torture. But I’m sure you just turned your head on that incident, afterall clinton and reno were saints right?
Wake up captian.

www.infowars.com

OMG, we have a Koureshite? Get out the tinfoil hats and dustbusters.

Please, Kctim, don’t tell me you think David Kouresh was Jesus rather than a child molestor.

get your tinfoil hats here

Captain,

I’m joining this thread way late, however, in an earlier post you write:

Now, more than ever, we must *ALL* stand up and fight for the principles of Freedom and Liberty that this country was founded upon: Dissent, Freedom of Expression and Assembly, Elective Responsibility, and proper Representation.

Then your very next line:

The Electoral College must go

The guys who founded the country were the ones that came up with the Electoral College. The EC is rather core to the REPUBLIC we have here.

I’m all for freedom and liberty and the right to peaceably assemble. I don’t really know what Elective Responsibility means. If that means taking responsibility for being informed (about the issues and the candidates) before you cast a ballot, then I’m all about that, too.

You also refer to a successful campaign of dumbing down the average American thru underfunding of education….huh? I’ll agree our public education system pretty much blows, but
we spend more than any industrialized nation on education. Also, I don’t think it’s a big secret that the majority of those in education lean left. This is especially true of higher education.

The general theme of your post is that we, the voting public, have been duped and are to stupid to recognize it. Apparently, you are enlightened. This is the essence of elitist thinking. The condescension in your post is evident.

You whine a good bit about the Patriot Act and how it’s eroding freedom in this country. Pah! Why don’t you take a good look at what’s happening to private property rights in this country?

Lastly, I’ll take our flawed capitalist system over any socialist system, thanks.

Whoa, I can’t let this one go. The 2nd Amendment, yup, I remember the assault rifle ban. Was there something else? What other civil rights infrigements are you talking about from the 90’s? is there really anything comparable to Patriot?

The 4th Amendment was basically abolished under clinton. The 2nd Amendment, property rights and personal freedoms also suffered heavy loses during the 90’s. This is the peace and prosperity that you talk about?

“Please, Kctim, don’t tell me you think David Kouresh was Jesus rather than a child molestor.”
- If I don’t believe in a Jesus of the bible, why would I think Koresh was a Jesus type figure?
As far as him being a child molestor, man you watch way too much TV.

WC
At least you acknowledged the 2nd Amendment violation.
The no-knock rule signed by clinton was a direct violation of the 4th Amendment.

“is there really anything comparable to Patriot?”
- Rights are not something that can be compared to each other. All of our rights are extremely important. The chipping away of one is just as important as the chipping away of another.
A person should not support the destruction of any of our rights just because he/she disagrees with it.
Rights violations found in the Patriot Acts stand on their own, but that doesnt excuse other violations that have occurred in the past.

The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else.”
“Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star”, 149
May 7, 1918
This a favorite quote of mine that I frequently use whenever I get into a debate with Republicans on criticism of the President or his administration. Many of you seem to be forgetting in this discussion one critical point.
The president is an elected official of the people and as such is open to whatever criticism comes with that great privilege. I am sick of hearing Republicans whine about democrats independents and the like criticizing the president.
I don’t recall anyone on the right becoming indignant when a Mr. Bill Clinton was catching flak about something far less antagonistic than blowing a surlpus, underfunding education, Lying about a war, etc etc.

Kctim, at least I now understand the genesis or you moniker. To be honest that kind of thinking scares the shit out of me.

Perhaps the ATF acted like cowboys, but can you explain how the children he fathered with teenagers isn’t pedophilia? Why did he have an arsenal, accelerants and bunkers? Who was he at war with? Do you also believe Jonestown was heroic?

Perhaps Reno acted rashly, but she did’t burn those kids alone. You need to read some facts instead of conspiracy theories, Kctim.

You sounded like a reasonable person at times until you spouted this garbage.

Greg
Sorry its been awhile, been out of town. BLAH!
Anyways, according to members who survived, he never did that kind of stuff with the children.
Arsenal? He doesn’t have to be at war with anyone to own firearms. Doesn’t matter how many or what kind either. If they wanted a bunker, then they have every right to have a bunker with guns in it.

About Reno.
I am sure that she had no idea that Waco would play out the way it did like that. I do not believe every conspiracy theory.
But to me, there is no way a person can blame rummy and bush for “everything” but yet give clinton and reno a pass. That is not fair.

Kctim, so am I right that Tim McVeigh is a hero of yours?

The Branch Davidians were a cult, Kctim. Parents and relatives who weren’t brainwashed did accuse him pedophilia. He’s dead so there will be no trial. So are maost of the victims.

He shot ATF agents who were lawfully, although stupidly, trying to arrest him.

I do believe the FBI and ATF allowed the situation to escalate, due to the deaths of fellow agents. That was poor judgement from field agents. But you also have to recognize that David Kouresh was a nut case that was bent on a nilistic behavior pattern to “fulfill” his megalomaniacal fantasies.

In what way does Rumsfeld and Bush planning the invasion of Iraq compare to this? Your logic seems rather confused to me. What conspiracy theory are you talking about?

Do you think it’s OK for people to break the law retreat to their home or compound and then kill officers who attempt to serve warrants?

Greg

McVeigh was an idiot. No hero of mine. You give the TV version of what happened at Waco and not actual witness accounts. All religions are cultish in a way.

“Do you think it’s OK for people to break the law retreat to their home or compound and then kill officers who attempt to serve warrants?”

- Hmmm? What laws were broken?
Nobody walked up to the front door and tried to serve a warrant, instead they chose to storm the place. Local townspeople also said that koresh walked into town on many occasions during the seige, why not arrest him then? Of course the FBI says he didnt but who should we believe? The innocent community who saw him do it or the govt org that killed 17 little children?