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The irony in this is amazing, and that you cannot see it is.. wow… this is not some civil rights struggle for justice- this is a struggle for power- pure and simple. This is why Ohio is the target, because it would lead to a Kerry victory and thus power. If this was a search for “justice”, the so-called freedom riders of this new movement would be fighting to count every vote in those states narrowly won by Kerry. But of course they are not- because this has nothing to do with a quest for justice or fairness.

You guys are within your full legal rights to file in court and work to get the result you wish- I support your right to do that. but please dont spin this as some grand quest for justice. The same way the republicans in Washington are trying to find discharged votes now- you guys are BOTH out for power. This is what you are missing about the irony- as soon as Gregorie was declared the winner, the bloggers’ quest for “justice” and for “counting all the votes” ended. because they dont care about justice- they care about Democrat victories. They care, in short, about POWER.

Ohio is not close like Washington, so all the legal moves, purported recounts ect. ect. wont change the results. But keep hope alive, and keep those tin foil hats nice and shinny :)

Misha,

I’d be willing to wager my very first Social Security check, that you honestly consider Howard Dean just another ‘Northeastern Liberal’ too?

You do yourself a disservice if you contritely dismiss our efforts as just another reckless power grab! How does the Green Party and the Libertarians play into this altruistic-challenged ruse to overturn the election? Is Zogby International’s motive an effort to vindicate their exit polling and predictions, or are they in collusion with the usurpers, too?

If you go back and read the history of the Freedom Riders, their voter registration efforts were concentrated almost exclusively in the state of Mississippi, starting around the mid-60’s. There you found the most egregious and widespread acts of Black voter suppression and intimidation, as it was the home to the last vestige of the most powerful KKK organization.

There was unprecedented scrutiny of our Nov. 2 election, and if you accept that the election went as smoothly as first reported, you’re sadly mistaken. There was a sharp increase in voter complaints nationwide. And, if you were willing to do the digging, you’d undoubtedly find such irregularities in every state.

But it’s ‘amazing’ to me Misha, that the unprecedented number of alleged incidents of fraud so far uncovered in Ohio and Florida, hold no significance with you.

Furthermore, your erroneous folding in of the blogger’s fraud movement with the outcome in Washington state, does damage to your overall premise. There were no allegations of election fraud or voter suppression for fraud bloggers to concern themselves with in the Governor’s race. In fact, the litigation filed in connection to the race (till this point), concerned challenges to the recount and found (valid) ballots.

Ohio is not close like Washington, so all the legal moves, purported recounts ect. ect. wont change the results. But keep hope alive, and keep those tin foil hats nice and shinny :)

Guessing you would probably not be deterred by any evidence I could offer to the contrary, could you at least fiddle with that wire hanger/antenna?

Bert, your response completely fails to address my main point. I am not saying that you guys are right or wrong about whether there was voter fraud or on what scale there was such fraud or suppression. My major point, which remains unrefuted, was that the major movement both in Ohio and Washington (and now in Washington from the Republican side) has nothing to do with an altruistic quest for justice, but rather with POWER. As you may know, i actually voted libertarian, so its not like i am a Bush partisan on this issue. But to me its patently obvious what is going on here- those who lost are trying ot use legal manuvers to win.

In Ohio, that means anti-Bush people digging for Kerry votes. In Washington, its gonna mean Republican diggin for more Dino votes. There are, of course, some people who really do want to see every vote counted no matter who it favors. The Washington state example, and the focus on Ohio illustrate that those people are far and few between. Also, your statement that there are irregularities in every state, but the liberal lawyers’ focus on Ohio (with no focus on states where Kerry’s margin of victory was closer) shows me the obvious partisanship in the effort.

Again, notice my point here has nothing to do with who is right and wrong (although I think its pretty outlandish to think Kerry won Ohio given the voter margins- obviously either candidate could have won Washington given the vote margin). I am saying that this has nothing to do with a quest for justice- its just a quest for power.

By the way, you dont need to make such assumptions about me though, as I am northeastern myself. I thought Howard Dean was scary because of his anti-free trade rhetoric, and I did not agree with his stance on the war. But i also realized he was to the right of guys like Kerry on gun control and fiscal responsibility. Now you can send me over your 200 dollar check, I will be sure to give it to a reputable public charity….

Notice, by the way, i never said what you guys were doing was “reckless power grab,” you read that into my post (probably out of a view of me as some partisan republican- which would explain your unwarranted Howard Dean comment). I am saying you guys are out for power- so are the Republicans. Our court system is an adversarial system, so its a good thing that you both push for your self-interest, because it will likely lead to the right result in the end (kind of like why the free market leads to the most efficient outcomes becuase all parties push their own self-interest). What i was disputing was that this effort is a quest for justice or altruistic in any way. it is not, and you ought not pretend that it is.

Misha,

Your rather strident opposition to those seeking redress in the nation’s judicial system, is a bit unsettling.

But to me its patently obvious what is going on here- those who lost are trying ot use legal manuvers to win.

Huh? I’m well aware Misha, of certain existing laws that you vehemently oppose. However, like election laws in Washington state that allowed the counting of those 742 found ballots, adhering to them does not constitute a diabolical ‘power grab’.

And again, you’ve indicted the assumed motivation of all those involved in the Washington state recount effort, and the Ohio fraud effort. Isn’t a ‘quest for POWER’ a bit much, in describing a contested Governor’s race? This wasn’t Boss Tweed, crooked judges and backroom deals. These were lawfully mandated recounts, whose validity has so far past the smell test.

And by the way, two of my questions went unanswered! How do the Green Party and Libertarian Party figure into this ‘quest for power’ in Ohio? How about Zogby?

Your continued fixation solely on the two major parties makes your conspiracy theory plausible, yet fails to explain the interests of other principal participants.

You may not believe me, but my interests lie solely in the accountability (or explanation) of Black voter suppression in Ohio, and it’s eradication from our entire election process. I actually would prefer that George W. Bush serve out his second term as President.

Why? Because, I firmly believe that this nation needs to suffer through a far greater malady than 9/11, to regain it’s sanity.

And, the incompetence and the ineptness of this administration have us on track, for just such an inevitability.

Bert, please review what I wrote- as I think you must have skimmed over it. i will give you two quotes:

“You guys are within your full legal rights
to file in court and work to get the result you wish- I support your right to do that.”

AND

“Our court system is an adversarial system, so its a good thing that you both push for your self-interest, because it will likely lead to the right result in the end”

So, quiet different from what you said, I do not oppose what you guys are doing, and in fact fully support it. Again, you are pretending like I am saying the dems; quest for power is “diabolical.” i said no such thing- i think it is perfectly normal in a political system for a political power to use all legal means to obtain power. ALL I am saying is that this is nto about a fight for “what is right” or “justice” or “altruism.”

As for Zogby- the self-interest there is obvious, he is trying to justify hiimself because he was proved very wrong in his predictions. The Greens dislike Bush more than Democrats, really, so thats no suprize. You have a good point about my libertarian bretheren- I guess I will admit that they may have some of this altriustic motives you talked about, but I would venture that the money is coming more from the anti-Bush libertarian camp (but that is just a guess). Anyway…

I agree with Misha about the power thing. (Before you get on my re Howard Dean – I met Howard Dean twice. He is not an ordinary NE liberal, but he is not presidential material.)

Bert, there are always various ways that reasonable people can view a situation. My view is that sympathetic poll workers can manufacture enough votes to win an election that is very close. The new found votes were from Democratic precincts, found by Democrats, presumably lost by Democrats in the first place. Now the Republicans will see what they can find in terms of military votes and lost votes from their districts. Maybe the Republicans can make up some disenfranchisement stories, you Democrats do.

As Misha says, it is not about right and wrong, it is about power. The Democratic machines in Washington are strong.

In Washington State there was essentially a tie election. Out of millions of votes, it comes down to only a few dozen to decide the election. (This is similar to the situation in Florida in 2000, but not close to the situation today in Ohio, where it is not very close.)

Whoever wins, half the voters of the state are not getting what they voted for. Partisans may be triumphant, but it is not a triumph for democracy or civil rights. It is just that one half of the population managed to outfox the other side.

Republicans have a saying: when it’s not close, they can’t cheat. We won the presidency by enough votes that the tricks in Ohio and other places won’t work. We will have to do the same in Washington next time.

Bert:
“And by the way, two of my questions went unanswered!”

Oh, so many questions are going unanswered these days…

“Your continued fixation solely on the two major parties makes your conspiracy theory plausible, yet fails to explain the interests of other principal participants.”

Don’t mind him Bert, we both know that the only way this has to do with power is how some have used theirs to wrongfully disenfranchise voters - and most often along racial lines. This happened in 2000 and unfortunately, it has happened again.

We also know that this whole thing is based on the fact that our election systems are BROKEN, and that if Americans want to ensure the fairness and accuracy of one person, one vote, we have no other choice but to do these recounts and investigations into fraud, computer rigging, and disenfranchisement - with the ultimate goal of fixing it. Installing voting uniformity, paper trails, and guaranteeing transparency so that there are no more chances that anyone will be denied their right to vote for any reason.

“You may not believe me, but my interests lie solely in the accountability (or explanation) of Black voter suppression in Ohio, and it’s eradication from our entire election process.”

There is an old Scottish maxim: They have said. What do they say? Let them say.
In other words, who cares what anyone else believes - if they don’t want to support the idea of fair and accurate elections, its their shortcoming, not ours. Let them call us mad tinfoil hatters while we’re fighting for justice and accountability.
In every righteous battle that has been fought in America there were always those who stood on the sidelines jeering and namecalling, or standing utterly silent, because they were too weak, afraid or uncaring to join in - even though they too, later get to enjoy any benefits that result.
As for me, I’m proof that you don’t have to be Black to want to make sure that everybody has an equal chance to vote, and that that vote will be counted.
Liberty, Equality, Fraternity - isn’t that the whole point of America? That no matter a persons race, color or creed, their voices will be heard, and given equal time and proper respect?

“I actually would prefer that George W. Bush serve out his second term as President.”

Ugh. But they’re doing so much damage - I’m not sure we’ll ever get over it! With this Iraqi quagmire, and whatever other wars the neo-cons plan to start, with the economy and deficit, with harming the environment, with deregulation, with destroying social security, with our reputation around the world, etc. etc.

“Why? Because, I firmly believe that this nation needs to suffer through a far greater malady than 9/11, to regain it’s sanity.
And, the incompetence and the ineptness of this administration have us on track, for just such an inevitability.”

Well, you may very well be right, but when we’re finally rid of this administration, its going to be one feckin’ deep hole we’ll all be standing in.

What difference does it make what someone’s motive is for verifying accuracy of an election, if accuracy is the outcome. Perhaps the details of why original vote counts, and recounts, differ — or don’t differ — will improve the process, and the attitude of voters in our country. We certainly call for investigations of other perceived wrongs. How many things can be more important to the citizens, or the health, of a democracy than reassurance that each vote will really count and no one was denied the privilege?

So, what is the answer to fair, accurate voting? We accept the idea of democracy and majority rule. If we accept there are some people, in all parties, and independents, who would cheat if they had opportunity to alter the outcome, what steps can be taken by the fair-minded people in all segments of society (while they argue about the last election) to make certain no one cheats in the next?

In checking out many forms of voting in the country, I’m becoming impressed with Oregon and New Hampshire. I don’t know if Oregon’s vote by mail scheme is foolproof, but no claims of vote fraud there that I’ve heard of. They did seem to have the same problem of registration fraud found in several states, primarily involving voter outreach groups who hired people to get voters registered. That’s got to be corrected, but it may be a simple fix.

OR & NH vote with a paper ballot. The high tech world of voting now seems goofy to me. Why spend thousands to buy a computer you’ll only use one day a year, or less? And then stand in line to use it? Oregon had no lines. No chads or confusing computer screens. No software issues to be debated. No wondering if the computer counted correctly. No issues to worry about like running out of toner in the printers. Why use on-site computers to generate and print pre-formatted voting forms (the receipt) when you could just print the forms in advance for many times less money? Plus, they had a couple of weeks to discuss the issues and candidates and fill out their ballots. Seems in many states we’ve cleverly managed to put layers of other people/machines between ourselves and the vote counters. If the mechanization of voting, at substantial cost, was supposed to make it faster and more accurate, it doesn’t look like it succeeded.

Maybe we should consider voting the old fashioned way — when it worked.

“The new found votes were from Democratic precincts, found by Democrats, presumably lost by Democrats in the first place…Maybe the Republicans can make up some disenfranchisement stories, you Democrats do.”

Are you from Seattle? King County? Washington state? I’m local, and, as far as I know, these uncounted ballots were found in King County, but there have been no reports of whether the precinct was Dem or Rep. And, certainly, it would be a leap of presumption to say that the poll workers were Democrats. These folks, usually retired, are to be commended for their voluntarism. Paid workers for the Secretary of State or the COUnty Auditor are sworn to serve the public - all the public.

Stating facts or opinions is fine, just don’t mix them like the current administration.

Randy

There is no evidence that these votes from King County were fraudulent. My point is that this is exactly the same kind of thing that is happening in Ohio, where there also is no evidence of fraud.

Do imagine for a minute that this same sort of vote mix-up happened in Ohio. It would join the list of “evidence” for fraud currently being manufactured in the Buckeye State, where some people are trying to create something like the Florida myth.

As I wrote above, the election in Washington was essentially a tie. If one or the other candidate can win by only a dozen or so votes, it creates a great incentive to cheat. When elections are not close, as in Ohio, it is not so important.

By the way, I don’t think it matters if a person is “local” but I was registered to vote in Seattle (Ballard) from 1994-7 and in Spokane 1992-4. I was impressed with the honesty of the governments in Washington. But I also remember how easy it was to register to vote, which happened as I recall automatically when I got a driver’s license. And you didn’t even need to prove a permanent address to get a driver’s license. When an election is decided by a few dozen votes, such lax voting procedures might have an effect.

Misha,

In an effort to come to some kind of semantics compromise, would you agree that a disenfranchised voter seeking redress in the courts, is akin to a quest for power that is their right as a citizen?

Adrienne,

Thanks for your words of encouragement, and continued voice of sanity here. I’m sorry to sound so dour and fatalistic, but I firmly stand by my assertions that this nation is about to experience a very rude awakening.

I know that the significance of at least 70% percent of the populations of France, Germany and Spain having a negative view of our President, and that there is a growing boycott of American goods in Britain sparked by his re-election, are worrisome indications not lost on you. The White House, the Republicans and the Conservative controlled media, have truly morphed into our version of ‘Baghdad Bob’.

Randy from Tacoma,

Thanks for your credible, accurate clarification and attention to a very telling detail. You just refuted a perfect example of the Right’s continued attempts to muddle factual evidence, which in their estimation is proving it wrong.

Re Factual evidence

I heard a good line that describes this situation well. It is in constant turmoil rarely disturbed by any new facts.

There is not factual evidence. The Washington State case could be argued for or against the Dem position in Ohio, but the situations are not particularly analogous. Washington was a close election. Any close election is a problem. There is a certain amount of statistical noise, error and manipulation in any large and important counting process. When it is close, these things make a difference. What is interested about Washington is the immediate presumption of Democratic victory when they win one (out of three) recounts. Why are you so sure this recount was correct and the others were wrong?

If you ask someone to count two million pennies, it is unlikely they will come up with the exact correct number on any particular count. When you are dealing with such a small number of total votes, you can never be sure. This is not the case in Ohio, which was a clear win for President Bush.

Re Ohio - We can argue this until 2008. The fact is that Bush is president. There is nothing anyone can do to change that outcome. It is the just, fitting and proper result and Democratic attempts to steal Ohio are bound to fail. By the way, most Democrats have done the honorable thing and are not contesting the election. As for the others, when it is not close they can’t cheat.

Bert

By the way, Randy’s valid defense of the electoral system in Washington would also apply to Ohio, unless you are saying that the people of Ohio are less honest than the people of Washington. He undercuts arguments about Ohio. Or maybe the only difference is that Dems seem to have won in Washington.

The real reason we are looking so close at Ohio is that the Dems lost. If we want to count all the votes, lets pay as much attention to Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan and Minnesota. Those races were as close as Ohio’s.