Democrats & Liberals: Archives

Bert,

But what was common in Black voting precincts in Ohio, were voters in line for 3-4 hours waiting to vote.

I keep hearing this one, but I can’t understand why the left keeps trying to link the problem to election fraud. Long lines and lack of machines were a problem all over the country. I had to wait in line too, but does that mean the Democrats were trying to suppress the white vote in New York? Of course not.

Ohio Republican Election officials in charge of distributing those voting booths not only denied their requests, but also held back a large number of units that were never utilized.

Do you think there might be other reasons why the machines were not used? Machines being out of order perhaps? I notice the article you linked to did not say why. It simply implied voter suppression.

While I think it’s possible there was vote fraud going on, I don’t think a 3-4 hour wait is evidence of voter disenfranchisement. I waited in the rain for three hours with a bunch of people of all races and, although some were griping, I didn’t see anyone drop out of line and leave.

“I keep hearing this one, but I can’t understand why the left keeps trying to link the problem to election fraud.”

- Because when all else fails, use the race card.

I’m one of them tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist types of people. Our elections are rigged, but the Dems are barking up the wrong tree with this black disenfranchisement crap.
Conyers and Jesse Jackson and their ilk try to keep us in the 60s so they can keep getting rich off of created fears. These worthless souls do more to hurt race relations than help. As long as they keep us divided, they keep making money.

Anyone who actually believes that it was only white Republicans who committed vote fraud is wearing partisan blinders and is not worth the thought. Both parties are guilty.

The American people need to join TOGETHER and demand elections decided by the people.
No more black and white, liberal and conservative. We ALL are THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

Air America Radio? Yea, theres an honest viewpoint. Thats as bad as listening to Hannity! Both promote the “party” agenda at all costs.

Bert-

The disenfranchisement has been televised? Where?

Like you, I’ve been watching this story over the past few weeks trying to find that “gotcha” that proves the wicked evilness of the GOP. I’ve seen Bev Harris’ stuff, I’ve followed the Clint Curtis story (including the murder of the Fla IG in Ga), and I’ve listened to the Rev. Jackson. So far, it ain’t there.

Just as Blackwell said in his Counter to Jackson, each county has an election board of two Democrats and two Republicans. Voting machines were issued according to each county’s request prior to the election. Your article cites the denying of requests for more machines, but those requests were made on election day and by then it was a little too late.

But hey this is the U.S.A., and if Jackson, Harris, Curtis, et al can make some money and create some fame by keeping this drumbeat going then they can have at it. And I’ll keep watching for that TV footage.

The Traveler wrote:

I keep hearing this one, but I can’t understand why the left keeps trying to link the problem to election fraud. Long lines and lack of machines were a problem all over the country. I had to wait in line too, but does that mean the Democrats were trying to suppress the white vote in New York? Of course not.

How long was your wait? Obviously not 3-4 hours. Yes, there were lines and waits all over the country, but not to the degree we saw in Black communities of Ohio.

As far as the voting machines were concerned, if they were not of any use, why did the election officials not cite that as the cause not to deploy them?

kctim, if you’d rather not refute the pointed the evidence I presented on it’s merit, that is fine. But, as I offered in my post, those protesting fraud in Ohio are being lead also by concerned White Americans such as the Green Party and other organizations.

Traveler and kctim - Both of you are morons.

Read what actually happened, THEN decide. Read these .pdf’s and THEN decide whether Blackwell, who also was the Ohio Chairman of the Bush Campaign, was and is acting fairly.

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/ohblackwellltr12204.pdf

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/voteforum2.html

The law, the LAW is that you must have one machine for every 100 registered voters. Yet in spite of having record new registrations, Mr. Blackwell, who determines how machines are apportioned, went by the vote totals from 2000, an election with one of the lowest turnouts in history. And it’s not just black voters who were disenfranchised, so were the young, and city dwellers in general — all three groups vote primarily Democratic (this is about statistics, not so much race -though one of the three categories is racial), and Blackwell along with the Chairman of Diebold, openly vowed to “deliver the state to Bush”.

And we’re not talking about a few machines not being put into play in largely Democratic areas. We’re talking about OVER 2000 machines being withheld from these areas.

And there were other tactics used. Warren County officials were told THE DAY BEFORE THE ELECTION to “expect a lockdown” of the voting facilities. On election day, they had a supposed “terrorist threat warning” at Level 10 - the highest since 9/11 - yet no one in either the FBI or Homeland Security ever issued such a warning. No one from the press was allowed to view what was happening to the votes.

It should be noted too that the ones bringing the lawsuits in Ohio, are not the Dems, but rather the Greens and the Libertarians - two parties on the opposite side of the political spectrum - because they want openness in elections. We should ALL want this.

What utterly boggles the mind is that for all intensive purposes, Republicans seem totally ok with election fraud - as long as it works for them.

How will you feel when someone hacks those voting machines for another party? After all, Diebold in particular is known to be using an encryption scheme that was broken way back in 1998.

You seriously need to wake up on a LOT of fronts. You spew “patriotism, patriotism, patriotism” at the drop of a hat, but where are your patriotic deeds? For instance, I’m a Liberal with a capital “L”, but I host a right wing website for a client, because I believe in free speech - and believe me, that guy tests my belief every day.

My point is, you guys all talk the talk, but in no way do you walk the walk.

A fair, transparent, equitable vote is in the best interests of the Republic AS A WHOLE. Without it, we’re nothing - we lose any claim to being the greatest democracy in the world, if we can’t even practice it here at home.

5by5-

Mr. Blackwell, who determines how machines are apportioned, went by the vote totals from 2000, an election with one of the lowest turnouts in history

In Ohio, each county has a four-member board of elections — two Democrats and two Republicans. They make the decisions about the placement of voting machines. They certify elections. They choose voting devices and deploy those systems on election days. (From the Blackwell article linked above)

Bert,

How long was your wait? Obviously not 3-4 hours. Yes, there were lines and waits all over the country, but not to the degree we saw in Black communities of Ohio.

No, I didn’t have to wait quite that long, but I still had to wait. I remember hearing news reports on Election Day about people waiting that long in other cities. During the early voting in Florida, some people spent all day in line.

5by5,

Traveler and kctim - Both of you are morons.
Read what actually happened, THEN decide. Read these .pdf’s and THEN decide whether Blackwell, who also was the Ohio Chairman of the Bush Campaign, was and is acting fairly.

Why am I a moron? Because I make my decisions based on fact?
The links you provided don’t give any facts. These are investigations to determine the facts. Big difference.
I never said there wasn’t voter suppression. What I am saying is that it hasn’t been proven in this situation. I may be a moron, but at least I’m not a closed-minded one.

You seriously need to wake up on a LOT of fronts. You spew “patriotism, patriotism, patriotism” at the drop of a hat, but where are your patriotic deeds? …My point is, you guys all talk the talk, but in no way do you walk the walk.

If this is all about patriotism and not partisanship, why are there no investigations in other states? This whole thing is (or at least seems to be) being done simply to make it look like the Republicans stole or influenced the election.
We do need these investigations, but they are being done the wrong way and for the wrong reasons.
If you really want the facts, you better start investigating both sides in all 50 states.

I agree 100% with you, Bert.
In Ohio, there are numerous glaring problems: with the vote totals, the elimination of votes, the vast numbers of people who were not listed on the voter rolls and ended up casting provisional ballots - many of which were later not counted, and with the _obvious disenfranchisement_ of voters.
It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that not enough machines were sent to the most densely populated areas, especially the inner cities, while there were more than enough in the more sparsely populated (and predominantly Republican) suburbs.
Kenneth Blackwell told the press he would not try to hinder the recount process - and has now turned around and is doing exactly that. I feel he should be made to recuse himself from the entire proceedings - since what occurred in the state on election day was under his direction and because he was Dubya’s campaign manager in the state of Ohio.

kctim:
“Because when all else fails, use the race card.”

Bullshit, Tim. Race was the leading factor in the stealing of the Florida election in 2000, and it is a completely obvious factor in this one, as well.

“Conyers and Jesse Jackson and their ilk try to keep us in the 60s so they can keep getting rich off of created fears. These worthless souls do more to hurt race relations than help. As long as they keep us divided, they keep making money.”

How dare you call these men WORTHLESS?
I have nothing but the highest respect for both of them, and feel they have every right to look into what is an obvious case of _black and white_ voter disenfranchisement in the inner cities of Ohio. Without Conyer’s there would have been no hearing on this issue, and without Jackson calling and discussing the issue with Kerry, his lawyers would have walked away a long time ago.
And it is their concern which has drawn the only mainstream press this issue has received.

“Anyone who actually believes that it was only white Republicans who committed vote fraud is wearing partisan blinders and is not worth the thought. Both parties are guilty.”

Oh yeah? Well why don’t you try backing that statement up. Give me some links that go toward proving this assertion. I’ve been following this story for a while and have seen this idea being floated by those on the right before, problem is, I haven’t found any that actually do.

“The American people need to join TOGETHER and demand elections decided by the people.”

This is the only thing in your post I agree with. And I do so wholeheartedly.

“No more black and white, liberal and conservative. We ALL are THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.”

Sure we are, however, until there is a lot more equality among our citizens, people have to keep fighting the good fight with good reason.

“Air America Radio? Yea, theres an honest viewpoint. Thats as bad as listening to Hannity! Both promote the “party” agenda at all costs.”

They are the lone Liberal talk-radio voice on my dial, surrounded by a cacophony of hatefilled Rightwing garbage. Partisan, definitely, but at least they talk about things I care about, without hatred - and they are the only ones keeping abreast of the developing events concerning the Ohio election.

Hey, 5by5…
Very nicely said!
Are you a new poster to Watchblog?

Traveler:
“If this is all about patriotism and not partisanship, why are there no investigations in other states?”
There definitely should be, since there are numerous questions surrounding the vote, not only in Ohio, but in Florida and North Carolina as well.

Here is a good link to the overall subject:
http://www.yuricareport.com/ElectionAftermath04/StolenElection2004.html

Btw, kctim…

You might want to read this link about that programmer Clint Curtis who claims that Republican Representative Tom Feeny asked him to design a vote-switching computer program. I’m viewing the story a lot less sceptically after reading this particular article by Wayne Madsen - someone who I consider to be a decent investigative reporter:

http://onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/120604Madsen/120604madsen.html

Adrienne,

there are numerous glaring problems: with the vote totals… the vast numbers of people who were not listed on the voter rolls and ended up casting provisional ballots - many of which were later not counted…

You say you want fairness and yet you want these votes counted? People are not allowed to vote unless they are properly registered. Do you know why? Because that’s the law! Allowing non-registered people vote leaves the door wide open for ballot-box stuffing.

When Kctim said both sides are involved with voter suppression, you responded with:
Oh yeah? Well why don’t you try backing that statement up. Give me some links that go toward proving this assertion. I’ve been following this story for a while and have seen this idea being floated by those on the right before, problem is, I haven’t found any that actually do.
Where are your links to back up your statements about disenfranchisement and suppression in Ohio? Don’t quote the ones from the article; they are based on guesswork and assumption.
And how about a link to back up this statement:
Race was the leading factor in the stealing of the Florida election in 2000, and it is a completely obvious factor in this one, as well.
This whole discussion implies that the republicans knew in advance that Ohio would be the deciding state and how the people were going to vote! Then they set up this big plan in only one state. It also implies the Democrats didn’t know what was going on at all. Give me a break.
I’m sure there was voter fraud committed, but it was not limited to one party and it was not limited to Ohio. Sporadic voter fraud happens and it’s provable. But I have yet to see any proof of a large conspiracy to take Ohio.

I went to the site you gave me. Just to let you know, a site that only reports one side of the story isn’t going to convince me. When I say I want facts I mean unbiased, non-partisan reports or investigative articles.”Bush stole the election so there” sites don’t cut it for me.

5
I said I was one of those tin foil hat wearing conspiracy nuts. I know all about what is going on with diebold and the other crap.
Apparently, you think I’m a moron because I don’t support the left vs. right theory.

Adrienne
Please show me the successful lawsuits brought about by so-called disenfranchised blacks during the 2000 elections, I may have missed them. Thanks.

Conyers and jackson are race-baiters that profit from created fear. You can respect them all you want but I still put them in the same boat as sharpton, farakhan? and duke.

“Sure we are, however, until there is a lot more equality among our citizens, PEOPLE have to keep fighting the good fight with good reason.”
- Thats right, the PEOPLE need to keep fighting for each other. Self appointed “leaders” who make millions off others can go to hell.
Wearing a thousand dollar suit while walking down inner city streets and telling people you know how they feel is bull.

“They are the lone Liberal talk-radio voice on my dial, surrounded by a cacophony of hatefilled Rightwing garbage.”
- And Fox is the only non liberal channel on TV, but I don’t watch it.
If you don’t mind, while I am getting the links you requested, please show me where Rush, Hannity or any other mainstream right-wing radio show has ever said they hate blacks, Americans, the bill of rights or any other legitimate hate speech.

The weirdest thing is, I actually believe the election was rigged also and agree with you on that. But since I do not blindly follow a party, I am wrong.

So in essence?, I basically agree with Adrienne and 5 on the election and I am a moron.
Go figure!

Traveler:
“People are not allowed to vote unless they are properly registered.”

There are huge numbers of people in Ohio who were already registered in their precints who suddenly weren’t on the rolls when they went to vote on election day. They were made to fill out provisional ballots - which later, did not necessarily need to be counted according to Ohio law. Any provisional votes that were later counted were done at Blackwell’s discretion. There were also many new voters whose registrations were considered invalid by Blackwell because of the _thickness of the paper_ they were printed on, and thus, were not listed in the voter rolls.
Do I think these peoples votes deserve to be counted?
YES, I DO.

“This whole discussion implies that the republicans knew in advance that Ohio would be the deciding state and how the people were going to vote!”

Ohio was the state that the owner of Diebold promised to deliver to Dubya on election day. Blackwell was Dubya’s campaign manager in the state. There were numerous problems and glaring inconsistencies with the vote - and they didn’t even certify that vote until just the other day. If Republicans don’t feel that these things should be raising a red flag with Democrats and Third Party members whose vote went to Kerry, I believe you are being willfully obtuse.

“Then they set up this big plan in only one state.”

There are plenty of inconsistencies and anomalies in other states as well - as demonstrated by my link.

“It also implies the Democrats didn’t know what was going on at all.”

No, there were plenty of concerned people worrying about the Ohio and Florida vote well before the election.

“I’m sure there was voter fraud committed, but it was not limited to one party and it was not limited to Ohio. Sporadic voter fraud happens and it’s provable. But I have yet to see any proof of a large conspiracy to take Ohio.”

I’m willing to look at any links which imply that the Democrats were trying to rig the election in any US state.

“I went to the site you gave me. Just to let you know, a site that only reports one side of the story isn’t going to convince me. When I say I want facts I mean unbiased, non-partisan reports or investigative articles.”Bush stole the election so there” sites don’t cut it for me.”

Well, I feel I have to point out that there probably aren’t any rightwing sites reporting on this story or complaining about election fraud - because they won - nevertheless, that doesn’t automaticallly mean that the left is talking out of its ass.
In my link there were articles from the Washington Times, The Cleveland Plain Dealer, The Electronic Privacy Information Center (non partisan), The Columbus Dispatch, TVweek.com, Citizens For Legitimate Government (multi-partisan), and MSN, along with sites like Truthout and TomPaine which I don’t consider to be bullshit fabricators of untruths.
But if you rightwingers want to cover your eyes and ears and scream like children that nothing whatsoever was wrong with the past election, there is not a thing I can do, or say, or post that will change your minds.

kctim:
“Please show me the successful lawsuits brought about by so-called disenfranchised blacks during the 2000 elections, I may have missed them. Thanks.”

NNACP Settles Suit With Florida Over 2000 Election
Associated Press:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,61468,00.html

Quietly Florida Admits 2000 Election Fraud
By The Associated Press:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/04.28A.Election.Fraud.htm

Settlement reached in vote lawsuit
Associated Press
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/3594763.htm?1c

Adrienne
Those links are are to the story about the naacp lawsuit. That lawsuit did not represent any one person who specifically stated they had been disenfranchised. The naacp assumed there had to be fraud and submitted a lawsuit on behalf of a “group,” not any one certain case that was backed up by law.

If that, along with truthout.com, is enough to support voter fraud, then all of this page is true also.

http://www.freerepublic.com/~robertacookpe/links?U=%2Ffocus%2Ff-news%2Fbrowse

And don’t worry, there are links to the actual newspaper stories provided. Its not created news by a lone evil republican.

Adriene,
There are huge numbers of people in Ohio who were already registered in their precints who suddenly weren’t on the rolls when they went to vote on election day. They were made to fill out provisional ballots - which later, did not necessarily need to be counted according to Ohio law. Any provisional votes that were later counted were done at Blackwell’s discretion. There were also many new voters whose registrations were considered invalid by Blackwell because of the _thickness of the paper_ they were printed on, and thus, were not listed in the voter rolls.
Do I think these peoples votes deserve to be counted?
YES, I DO.

Then here’s my question: How did Blackwell know how people were going to vote in advance?
Plus you seem to be implying that all the registrations were completed correctly. And you’re forgetting that democrats as well as republicans certify the ballot count.

There are plenty of inconsistencies and anomalies in other states as well - as demonstrated by my link.

Well let’s investigate them as well! Or aren’t they as important?

I’m willing to look at any links which imply that the Democrats were trying to rig the election in any US state.

A simple Google-search will give you plenty of sites that are just as credible as yours.

But if you rightwingers want to cover your eyes and ears and scream like children that nothing whatsoever was wrong with the past election, there is not a thing I can do, or say, or post that will change your minds.

What are you talking about? I actually said I believed there was voter fraud!

You seem to be implying that the Democrats are perfect and that just because I lean right (I’m not a Republican, btw) I am in some way evil and I support Vote fraud. I don’t.
I simply like to see facts. And the facts tell me that democrats certified the votes in Ohio. Why would they do that? Are you saying they are throwing the election?

I’m willing to admit my side is not perfect (that’s why I don’t join their party). Are you?

As for your links about Florida, they are not proof of any “disenfranchisement” or suppression. They said it was alleged as part of cases brought up to change the voting system.

Adrienne,

You also forgot all the lawyers that both parties packed the swing states with. didn’t they see any of this? If they did, why did Kerry concede?

Adrienne-

There was also no admission of guilt in any of those settlements. The NAACP basically got commitments to many of the administrative reforms that were mandated by the HAVA.

Tim- that was a class action lawsuit the NAACP filed on behalf of something like 19,000 black people who felt they had been disenfranchised in the 2000 election.

Here is an official government study that lays out all the disenfranchisement issues in the Florida 2000 election - the first two chapters are the most interesting as they lay out exactly how these things occurred (along with charts and graphs of the percentages of black voters by county) and statements made by people describing what they experienced:
http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/main.htm

Traveler:
“Then here’s my question: How did Blackwell know how people were going to vote in advance?”

His position gave him all the data from the last election, it also gave him all the info on all the new voters registered by county.

“Plus you seem to be implying that all the registrations were completed correctly.”

I’m sure some of them weren’t, but it is impossible to believe that that many new registrations were incorrect. And we know that many were being thrown out by Blackwell for ridiculous reasons - that was reported on well before the election.

“And you’re forgetting that democrats as well as republicans certify the ballot count.”

Yes, but people leaving hours-long election lines due to the lack of machines, vote tallies that include more votes than should be recorded in a district, or votes that have no no paper trail can not be checked or accounted for - by either side.

>There are plenty of inconsistencies and anomalies in other >states as well - as demonstrated by my link.
“Well let’s investigate them as well! Or aren’t they as important?”

I agree. And yes, I feel they are just as important.

“A simple Google-search will give you plenty of sites that are just as credible as yours.”

Whatever.

“You seem to be implying that the Democrats are perfect and that just because I lean right (I’m not a Republican, btw) I am in some way evil and I support Vote fraud. I don’t.”

I never said you were evil. I’m glad you don’t support vote fraud, because this isn’t a partisan issue. And I’m not a Democrat either, btw. I’m a Green.

“I simply like to see facts. And the facts tell me that democrats certified the votes in Ohio. Why would they do that? Are you saying they are throwing the election?”

I don’t know why they would certify a vote that had so many problems without a thorough investigation being done first - it seems like the Dems are wimping out.
In my opinion, there are so many anomalies and such a huge number of complaints, and so many statements that have been recorded alleging disenfranchisement in the state of Ohio (and elsewhere) that it can’t be all explained away as being mere conspiracy theory.
Plus, the exit polls in _all but one swing state_ said that Kerry won, and it is impossible for many people (not just me) to believe that in the last hours of voting that it completely disappeared in every single one, y’know? Exit polls are historically correct - why should they be suddenly _so wrong_ and by such a large percentage? It simply makes no sense.

“I’m willing to admit my side is not perfect (that’s why I don’t join their party). Are you?”

I’m far from perfect, but I’m not completely stupid, either. When things don’t make any sense, I want to know why, rather than be blindly optimistic or unconcerned.

Adrienne,

His position gave him all the data from the last election, it also gave him all the info on all the new voters registered by county.

????
What data? There’s no way to know who people voted for. And he really doesn’t know how new voters are going to vote.

“A simple Google-search will give you plenty of sites that are just as credible as yours”
Whatever.

That’s about the attitude I’d expect. If you don’t look at the facts, they don’t exist. There’s a term for that. It’s called having your head in the sand.

Exit polls are historically correct - why should they be suddenly _so wrong_ and by such a large percentage? It simply makes no sense.

Historically is the key word there. Exit polls are not scientific. They never have been.

As I said before, I’m not disputing that there was voter fraud. But I am disputing that there was some sort of a conspiracy.

Here’s a great read on the 1960 election; back when the dead voted in Chicago….

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A36425-2000Nov16?language=printer

Maybe Kerry is following Nixon’s example of trying not to be remembered as a “sore loser.” It worked for Dick.

Oh by the way, that was back when Texas was a blue state…

Adrienne
If any of those 19000 had any absolute proof, they could have sued, become rich and had their 15 minutes of fame. Any ambulance chaser in the country would have taken that case pro-bono.

Thanks for the link, interesting stories on there also. Just as there are interesting stories in the link I sent you about Democrat fraud and corruption.
But they are not rare cases and do NOT only happen in black areas.
Our voting area had an area set up with chairs and coffee for those who had to wait until their info was checked.

The only reason these were brought to anyones attention was because the naacp’s, a non-political organization(lol), candidate did not win the elections.

This again.

Nobody stole Florida. Nobody stole Ohio. I keep on checking out the “evidence” and all I find is rumor and innuendo worthy of the “X Files.”

119,000 votes are a lot. It was not close. Nixon lost in 1960 by about that many votes – in the whole United States. Bush soundly whipped Kerry in the general popular vote.

This is another exercise in mythmaking. The Florida myth has become so ingrained in some circles that it is actually believed. Did it rain in Ohio on November 2? It is a much more compelling picture is you can include pouring rain. You don’t need actual rain. You can have threatening skies. What about the dogs? Dogs must have intimidated somebody, even if it was just the postman as he walked toward the polls. It is not as dramatic without dogs - big ones - not poodles or Pomeranians. Weren’t there any injuries or beatings we can attribute to the election? Somebody must have been mugged nearby. Maybe we can write up a nice script so that Michael Moore can make a movie.

Traveler:
“What data? There’s no way to know who people voted for. And he really doesn’t know how new voters are going to vote.”

People who were formerly, or recently registered as Democrats and in what districts - Blackwell had that data at his disposal. Why the hell would the majority register as Democrats so they could vote for Dubya?

“A simple Google-search will give you plenty of sites that are just as credible as yours”
Whatever.
That’s about the attitude I’d expect. If you don’t look at the facts, they don’t exist. There’s a term for that. It’s called having your head in the sand.”

Look, I’m backing up what I say with news story links - you’re just being lazy telling me to Google-search something to back up your assertions. I’m not going to spend my time trying to make your case for you, get it?

“Historically is the key word there. Exit polls are not scientific. They never have been.”

They have always proven to be the most accurate polls taken during elections - except for in 2000 and 2004.

“As I said before, I’m not disputing that there was voter fraud. But I am disputing that there was some sort of a conspiracy.”

Read all the links I’ve provided - maybe you’ll see why so many people besides myself feel there has been something really rotten going on with our elections - and somehow, ALWAYS in the Republicans favor.

“Maybe Kerry is following Nixon’s example of trying not to be remembered as a “sore loser.”“

This isn’t about Gore or Kerry anymore. Its about the death of democracy.

Jack:
“Nobody stole Florida. Nobody stole Ohio. I keep on checking out the “evidence” and all I find is rumor and innuendo worthy of the “X Files.””

This is the sort of rightwinger I was referring to when I said they cover their eyes and ears and scream like children that nothing whatsoever was wrong with the past election. And in this case I am absolutely certain there is nothing that could be said, done, or posted by _anyone_, that could change this opinion.

“Read all the links I’ve provided - maybe you’ll see why so many people besides myself feel there has been something really rotten going on with our elections - and somehow, ALWAYS in the Republicans favor.”

Not always though. It just depends on which stories your willing to ignore.
The stories below show Democrat fraud in 2000 and 2004, its not a one side thing.

http://www.freerepublic.com/~robertacookpe/links?U=%2Ffocus%2Ff-news%2Fbrowse

“Its about the death of democracy”
Who cares about the death of democracy, I’m more worried about the death of our REPUBLIC!!!

Tim-

From another link regarding that NAACP vs Harris lawsuit:

“Other civil rights advocates representing plaintiffs in the lawsuit included The Advancement Project, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), The Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, N.A.A.C.P., People for the American Way Foundation, and the Miami law firm of Williams and Associates.”

Here is the link to the article:
Florida Voting Rights Lawsuit Settled;
NAACP LDF To Monitor State’s Implementation of Landmark Agreement
http://www.naacpldf.org/content.aspx?article=80

Tim-

Rather than spend all day looking - exactly which article among those many do you feel gives proof that Democrats committed fraud in the 2000 or 2004 election?

Adrienne,
Here are some links for you…

Here’s one from the Washington Times.

“Regarding the 2000 election, allegations of mass voter intimidation and suppression in Florida were determined to be unfounded by the U.S. Civil Rights Commission, which spent six months investigating the charges.”
Hmmm…

Here’s one about fraud in the swing state of Wisconson

Here’s another one about Ohio. This one might partially explain your uncounted ballots.

And one about a guy who gave crack for votes.

Here’s one about theNader campaign.

This crap is comming from both sides and the evidence is right there if your mind and eyes are open.

Yes, I realize a few of the links I just posted are editorials. But they are from news organizations, as opposed to some of the links we’ve seen here.

Traveler:
“Here’s one from the Washington Times.
“Regarding the 2000 election, allegations of mass voter intimidation and suppression in Florida were determined to be unfounded by the U.S. Civil Rights Commission, which spent six months investigating the charges.””

I didn’t mention intimidation and suppression, I said disenfranchisement - this was done most notably through spoiled ballots and the illegal purging of voters from the rolls.

From that US Civil Rights Commision study they are referring to:

On spoiled ballots:
“The relationship between race and voter disenfranchisement is particularly evident when looking at the issue of spoiled ballots. The Commission’s statistical analysis shows that the percentage of spoiled ballots[48] is positively correlated with both the percentage of the population that is African American and the percentage of the population that is a member of a minority group. Thirty-four percent of the variation in the percentage of spoiled ballots across counties can be explained by the size of the African American population in the counties.[49] Twenty-eight percent of the variation in the percentage of spoiled ballots is explained when considering the percentage of the population that is a member of a minority group.[50] Further, the percentage of the population that is white is negatively correlated with the percentage of spoiled ballots.[51] In other words, race may be one factor in explaining why ballots were spoiled in Florida counties.[52]”

And this:
“One obvious question is presented by this data: Is there some other factor that better explains this disparity in ballot rejection rates? In short, the answer is no. This statistically significant county-level correlation between race and ballot rejection rates cannot be attributed to the educational level of African Americans in Florida. A multiple regression analysis that controlled for the percentage of high school graduates and the percentage of adults in the lowest literacy category failed to diminish the relationship between race and ballot rejection or to reduce the statistical significance of the relationship.”

On illegal voter-roll purging as mandated by Katherine Harris:

“A similar effect upon African Americans is presented based on an analysis of the state-mandated purge list.[73] In 1998, the Florida legislature enacted a statute that required the Division of Elections to contract with a private entity to purge its voter file of any deceased persons, duplicate registrants, individuals declared mentally incompetent, and convicted felons without civil rights restoration, i.e., remove ineligible voter registrants from voter registration rolls. What occurred in Miami-Dade County provides a vivid example of the use of these purge lists. According to the supervisor of elections for Miami-Dade County, David Leahy, the state provides his office with a list of convicted felons who have not had their rights restored.[74] It is the responsibility of Mr. Leahy’s office to verify such information and remove those individuals from the voter rolls “[i]f the supervisor does not determine that the information provided by the division is incorrect… .”[75] In practice, this places the burden on voters to prove that they are incorrectly placed on the purge list. Mr. Leahy’s office sends a notice to the individuals requiring them to inform the office if they were improperly placed on the list.[76]

Many people appear on the list incorrectly.[77] For example, in the 2000 election, the supervisor of elections office for Miami-Dade received two lists—one in June 1999 and another in January 2000—from which his office identified persons to be removed from the voter rolls. Of the 5,762 persons on the June 1999 list, 327 successfully appealed and, therefore, remained on the voter rolls (see table 1-4). Another 485 names were later identified as persons who either had their rights restored or who should not have been on the list.[78] Thus at least 14.1 percent of the persons whose names appeared on the Miami-Dade County list appeared on the list in error.[79] Similarly, 13.3 percent of the names on the January 2000 list were eligible to vote. In other words, almost one out of every seven people on this list were there in error and risked being disenfranchised.

In addition to the possibility of persons being placed on the list in error, the use of such lists has a disparate impact on African Americans. African Americans in Florida were more likely to find their names on the list than persons of other races. African Americans represented the majority of persons—over 65 percent—on both the June 1999 and the January 2000 lists (see table 1-4). This percentage far exceeds the African American population of Miami-Dade County, which is only 20.4 percent. Comparatively, 77.6 percent of the persons residing in Miami-Dade County are white; yet whites accounted for only 17.6 percent of the persons on the June 1999 convicted felons list. Hispanics[80] account for only 16.6 percent of the persons on that list, yet comprise 57.4 percent of the population. The proportions of African Americans, whites, and Hispanics on the January 2000 list were similar to the June 1999 list.[81]

This discrepancy between the population and the percentage of persons of color affected by the list indicates that the use of such lists—and the fact that the individuals bear the burden of having their names removed from the list—has a disproportionate impact on African Americans.”

It is from the exact same government link that I gave to Tim earlier:
http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/ch1.htm

I’m not going to even comment on the editorials or the crack-for-vote story, because it was hardly something that changed thousands of votes in Ohio, unlike what I am referring to. As for dissing my links - the ones I gave contained actual news stories, or stories from the Associated Press which were reprinted on other sites.

Adrienne and 5by5… You Rock!!

Thanks for coming to my aid with volumes of additional irrefutable evidence!

As you can see from your detractors, by digging up fraud (having noting to do with the subject at hand) from Chicago in the 60’s, and hoping that the opinion of the Washington Times actually can be taken seriously (let alone credibly), they’d rather not defend the actions of Mr. Blackwell and his co-horts.

In John Conyer’s first letter to Blackwell, he asked for answers to 36 simple questions regarding voting irregularities in Ohio.
Mr. Blackwell did not answer a single question.

I ask you The Traveler, George, Jack and kctim - if this was a fair election in Ohio - what does Mr. Blackwell have to hide?

Adirenne,

I didn’t mention intimidation and suppression, I said disenfranchisement - this was done most notably through spoiled ballots and the illegal purging of voters from the rolls.

That’s certainly a problem, and you’ve obviously done some research. But you certainly didn’t give any evidence of illegal activity or a conspiracy. Also, you’ve used the term “illegal purging” several times. Purging in-and-of itself is not illegal. In fact, it’s necessary. Dead people have been known to vote, you know. Obviously there were problems, but there is nothing to show they were planned.

As for dissing my links - the ones I gave contained actual news stories, or stories from the Associated Press which were reprinted on other sites

Actually, I was speaking more of Bert’s links.

I would also like to comment on something you said earlier:
Yes, but people leaving hours-long election lines due to the lack of machines… can not be checked or accounted for - by either side

I mentioned this in my first post. No one forced anyone to leave a line, as far as I know. If someone felt that voting wasn’t important enough to wait for, then why should we care? They gave up their right to vote willfully.

Bret,

When did I ever say it was a fair election in Ohio?
I just don’t believe your conspiracy theory.

I’ll take mainstream media news and editorials over some of the liberal blogs you linked to, thank you very much. And I’ll give Adrienne credit; at least she linked to a government site.

Traveler:
“That’s certainly a problem, and you’ve obviously done some research.”

I don’t like being forced to wear shiny tin-foil headgear, I assure you.

“But you certainly didn’t give any evidence of illegal activity or a conspiracy.”

Well, I also don’t need a brick to be dropped from a high building directly on my head to get a funny feeling that something is very wrong either…

Also, you’ve used the term “illegal purging” several times. Purging in-and-of itself is not illegal. In fact, it’s necessary. Dead people have been known to vote, you know. Obviously there were problems, but there is nothing to show they were planned.”

Read this article and you will know exactly why I call what Katherine Harris did by hiring a private entity to do illeagal vote purging:
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=217&row=2

You should also read his book - “The Best Democracy Money Can Buy” for the full story - it was exhaustively researched. I consider Greg Palast an _excellent_ investigative reporter.

“I would also like to comment on something you said earlier:
Yes, but people leaving hours-long election lines due to the lack of machines… can not be checked or accounted for - by either side”

You snipped my mention of vote tallies that include more votes than should be recorded in districts, or votes that have no paper trail. Those things are just as important to this story.

“I mentioned this in my first post. No one forced anyone to leave a line, as far as I know. If someone felt that voting wasn’t important enough to wait for, then why should we care? They gave up their right to vote willfully.”

So you think its normal to have to wait from 3-9 hours to vote like people did in Ohio? When thousands of machines (that worked, they were not broken) sat in idle storage and were never sent to the most populated areas which needed them? Do you think it is normal that this happened almost exclusively in districts where black voters would be in the majority? All these factors don’t add up to something suspicious to you? They do to me.
So does 93,000 ballots where no choice for president was recorded - that happened in Ohio, too.

“Adrienne and 5by5… You Rock!!”

Thanks, Bert. You’re no too shabby yourself! :^)
I appreciate the fact that you are the only one who is writing articles about this topic - and that amazes me, because nothing else seems as important to write about as the suspicion and disturbing facts that are pointing to the fact that our elections have become just as suspect as the Ukrainian’s - or any other corrupt government in the world.

Adrienne and Bert, I just want you to know that I’m following the saga with great interest. Keep up the good work!

Adrienne,

I went to the site you linked to. That’s not an investigative story either. It’s a leftist writing a synopsis of another leftist’s book. Hardly convincing.

You snipped my mention of vote tallies that include more votes than should be recorded in districts, or votes that have no paper trail. Those things are just as important to this story.

I wasn’t complaining about that part because I actually agree with it.

So you think its normal to have to wait from 3-9 hours to vote like people did in Ohio? When thousands of machines (that worked, they were not broken) sat in idle storage and were never sent to the most populated areas which needed them?

It’s 3-9 hours now? Bert said 3-4 in the article he wrote. Although he didn’t back it up.
Thousands of machines? An article Bert linked to said, “at least 125 machines were held back at the opening of the polls and an additional 68 were never deployed.” Of course, I’m not 100% sure of the accuracy of these numbers either. Do you have a link?

Our elections have become just as suspect as the Ukrainian’s

Correct me if I’m wrong, but no one was poisoned during our election.

All these factors don’t add up to something suspicious to you?

Of course they do! I am not denying there was problems. In fact, I’ll come right out and say it:

There are corrupt republicans who tried to influence elections by disenfranchising voters!

I simply have not seen any proof in these two cases. All I’ve seen so far are unproven accusations. You have your suspicions, and perhaps you are correct. But suspicion does not equal truth.

I will never be convinced that Ohio was wrongly decided – because it wasn’t. But I believe that proponents of these sorts of theories are more to be pitied than censured. Life is no fun for those who feel aggrieved and nobody will listen. Good luck with the venture, though.

To assess the magnitude of your challenge, I googled Moon landing & fake. My search produced 71,000 web entries in only .35 seconds, all arguing whether or not Neil Armstrong ever took that one giant leap for mankind. Some look pretty credible. I certainly can’t explain away all the questions. Most have pictures that clearly call the landing into doubt. The shadows and reflections are all wrong. You know there isn’t much credible evidence that the moon landing were fake, but the sites say that the LACK of evidence is evidence because it shows how wide the conspiracy actually is.

This is not a good sign for you all. If “they” have managed to hide the fact that the moon landing actually took place in Nevada for neigh on two generations now, what chance do you have of revealing the nefarious plot in Ohio any time soon?

I also found 2,290,000 sites about Bigfoot in only .13 seconds. That is another thing they don’t want us to know about. How many bigfoots are there? Maybe Bigfoot voted in Ohio.

Jack,

I just repeated your searches and your numbers are correct.
The fact that there are more sites dedicated to bigfoot than there are for the moon landings (fake or not) scares the hell out of me! If this is what we’re coming to, a few rigged elections won’t matter much.
Btw, Bigfoot didn’t vote in Ohio. He lives in a blue state, you know!

The Traveler,

Your responses in these matters are the typical machinations of the Right. You try your best to muddle the evidence, which in your estimation is proving it wrong.

The Free Press article I linked concerning the allocations of voting booths, are based on sworn testimony of poll watchers, precinct election officials, etc. This is clearly stated in the article, and something I should not need to point out to you. If you’re going to dismiss Adrienne’s links as ‘leftist’, you might wanna rethink ever citing the Washington Times.

Jack,

To me, Adrienne and many others reading and contributing to the debate in this link, this subject matter is very serious and as important as any topic discussed on WatchBlog. If you choose not to refute our arguments or acknowledge our evidence on their merits, that is your right. But, I’d rather you not comment at all, than disrespect and belittle us with such rhetoric.

Bert,

Your article did not say why the machines weren’t used. It made an assumption.

If the Washington Times is a right-wing paper, then you’re correct. I could have found something better. I’ve only read a few articles from it on the net. The one I linked to came up when I did a search. Of course, you quoted Air America Radio so I guess we’re even…

I’m not trying to “muddle the evidence.” I’m just trying to make sure it is evidence, and that I understand it properly.
Read the final few lines of my last post to Adrienne. One of them is in boldface; you can’t miss it. I believe some of what you say. I’m not trying to prove you wrong. I’m simply trying to get you (if possible) to prove you’re right.

Well, I for one don’t think Kctim is a moron nor even a dirty Republican. :)

I do think we can do without the personal attacks.

I think you have written a well thought out and documented post, Bert.

While I don’t think that any investigation will overturn Ohio or even would have ovrturned Florida in 2000 where the margins were much closer, I think it is definitely worhwhile investigating. I’m equally in favor of anyone wanting to investigate the Daly machine. It’s these things that make me want to purge both parties all together.

I believe that Kerry did concede……

Thanks to all for the info. Very enlightening.

The voter purges in Florida were very disconcerting AND many fraudulent. They tried it again this year but got caught.

What worries me is what they don’t catch

By the way Kctim…the US is a Liberal Democracy AND a Republic.

The Traveler,

You’re the state Election official in charge of voting booths, none of which have been used since the March 2 Primary. Now, please give me a plausible explanation why any machines in your possession could be defective, given you’ve had 8 months to repair them?

Second, I did not ‘quote Air America Radio’, I linked to a transcript of attorney Cliff Arnebeck’s interview on The Randi Rhodes Show, where he insisted a recount would show Kerry won Ohio.

Third, I could not miss your statement in bold face, and it is an admirable admission. However, you infer that with what little credible evidence we have, it is not enough to change the outcome in Ohio. I’ve never said that was my motivation or goal.

My father was born in the segregated South in 1914. He went through this (and much more), and worked hard his whole life to see that this son would not suffer the same fate. My love of politics comes from my father, who was a Precinct Captain in the Chicago 24th Ward, where we lived. This is where I get my motivation to see that this type of fraud is irrevocably removed from our election process.

Lastly, the burden of proof does not lie with us! As citizens of this country, through our elected representative we have the right to demand answers and redress to claims of disenfranchisement. We do not need to prove that they happened, because sworn testimony and affidavits hold us accountable.

Throughout this Comment thread, many of you have asked direct and pointed questions, grilling Adrienne and I on the details of the evidence we’ve offered up. Again, I will point you to the original letter John Conyers sent to Ken Blackwell. And again, I will point out that of the 36 questions posed concerning irregularities in Ohio - not one was answered by Mr. Blackwell.

Do we deserve answers or not?

Traveler:
“I went to the site you linked to. That’s not an investigative story either. It’s a leftist writing a synopsis of another leftist’s book. Hardly convincing.”

Greg Palast is not a Democrat or a Republican - I heard an interview with him on the radio right before the election and he claimed he _hated_ both Kerry and Bush. Truthfully, I don’t where his political sympathy lies, since he has lived in England for many years working for the BBC, and has only just moved back to the US. He began writing about the American elections in 2000 because, as he has said, no one in our media seemed to want to get to the bottom of what had actually occurred, and that really bothered him. Well, he got to the bottom of it alright - and by the reading of what he discovered, anyone honest would have to admit that he is a damn good investigative reporter.

“It’s 3-9 hours now? Bert said 3-4 in the article he wrote. Although he didn’t back it up.”

You need to read the statements that were recorded after the election in Ohio. 3-4 hours seems to have been the average in the inner cities. In two precincts some people waited approximately 9 hours. In one district that was loaded with voters from a local college, some waited as long as 12 hours.

“Thousands of machines? An article Bert linked to said, “at least 125 machines were held back at the opening of the polls and an additional 68 were never deployed.”

I read an article, (I believe it might have been either in TomPaine.com, or perhaps it was from the Progressive Review newsletter I get delivered by e-mail, I can’t remember now) stating that _as many as_ 2500 machines were not put into use in Ohio on election day. Not sure how accurate that number was, or where they got that info, but I do think it is safe to say that _a lot_ of machines that could have been used to make those voter lines shorter were not delivered to the (Democratic only) precincts that needed them desperately. And the fact that they didn’t seems like intentional disenfranchisment to me.

“Correct me if I’m wrong, but no one was poisoned during our election.”

No, unless you want to count Kerry’s botox treatment. :^)
Then again, the suspicion of racism and rigged elections is poisonous to the minds of the voters. Historically revolution is brewed up by such things.

“But suspicion does not equal truth.”

True, but suspicion, upon suspicion, upon suspicion, can tip the balance and make one believe that they’d be foolish not to add them all together and end up with the truth.
Look at the verdict in the Scott Peterson case that was just decided - the jurors had no murder weapon or solid evidence, just way too many clues and numerous inconsistencies in his story that added up in their minds as guilt - and gave the guy murder in the first degree and the death penalty.

After adding up everything I’ve read about the problems with the vote in Ohio, it is my personal belief that the election was conducted unfairly and the outcome was inaccurate. Every detail about how and exactly who rigged it, I don’t have, but I still feel a crime against democracy has occured.

Jack:
“I will never be convinced that Ohio was wrongly decided – because it wasn’t.”

That’s alright Jack, you can keep your narrow Republican blinkers on if you choose.
You didn’t believe me about the Florida 2000 election either when I gave you the exact same link that I’ve given Tim and Traveler - which is proof positive that the government knows that the previous election was inaccurate and racially unfair.
Its no skin off my ass if you refuse to look or try to be a little more skeptical because you’re pleased by the outcome, even if it is morally wrong, and indeed, Unamerican.
For people like Bert and AP and I, however, we don’t care for the idea of letting rigged Republican elections become the norm in the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Adrienne
I actually enjoy wearing my tin foil hat. :)

“we don’t care for the idea of letting rigged Republican elections become the norm in the land of the free and the home of the brave”

So far, I believe only Jack has said he doesn’t think things were rigged, traveler and myself have just been saying it is not a one sided deal.
And I, kctim, believe the elections were pre-determined by a secret organization. (yes, I know, I’m a nutcase, but out of respect for everyone here, I spare you my rants on that, LOL)

Liberal Democracy Greg? That is my bad, I need to read the Constitution again. When I get some free time, I will read through the Constitution again and find where it says that. I will then post it on here with an apology from me.
Any reference help would be nice. :)

And I, kctim, believe the elections were pre-determined by a secret organization.

Do you mean a certain organization that both Bush and Kerry belong to? In that case, both sides would have been involved! ;)

I have a tin foil hat too… I just don’t wear it much!

Bert and Adrienne

I know you feel strongly about this and you can’t understand why the mainstream media and even democratic leadership do not seem to take it seriously. I might have felt differently if Kerry had won, but I hope I would have acted differently. Even strongly held emotions and beliefs can be wrong.

Elections are not and never can be perfect. All we can do is make sure that they are decided according to the rules in place before the election. Bipartisan boards enforce these rules, so hundreds of Democratic officials would have to be in on any conspiracy. When you shine a light on any human process, you find problems. If you shine the light only on one side, you find problems there. Big city machines used to manufacture votes for Democrats. The Daley machine in Chicago and Lyndon Johnson’s people in Texas very probably manufactured enough voter fraud to give the 1960 election to John Kennedy. If we deconstructed the vote today in Chicago, I am certain we would find a lot of abuses, most of which favored Democrats. If Republicans were the ones aggrieved in Ohio I have no doubt that they would come up with a lot of abuses by Democrats there. Each time we find fraud or abuse, we have to counter it. But there is no reason to believe the net abuse in Ohio changed the election.

When I give the links to the moon landing fake or Bigfoot, it is not just to make a joke. The “proof” listed on many of those sites is credible and compelling. The very serious point is that it is not possible to disprove some things to the satisfaction of true believers. That is why we have election systems and courts. At some point we have to close the book. You can fool all of the people some of the time and you can fool some of the people all of the time, but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time.

Bert-

You seem to infer guilt upon Mr. Blackwell because he refused to directly address Mr. Conyer’s questions. Could there be other reasons why Mr. Blackwell responded in the fashion that he did?

Jack:
“I know you feel strongly about this and you can’t understand why the mainstream media”

I understand exactly why the mainstream media haven’t touched this story. They’re owned by corporations, and big business is the only entity Dubya has loyally represented for the past four years.
They know which side their bread is buttered on, which is why they’ve let him get away with being the worst president in history without a murmur or a peep. The journalists also know which side their bread is buttered on, which is why even though their ranks may well be filled with liberals, they don’t ask the hard questions - because they’ll only to get fired from the top for doing so.
Anyone who takes the time to look at mainstream media from outside the US will soon realize that ours has been bound and gagged for some time now.

“and even democratic leadership do not seem to take it seriously.”

They took it seriously enough to go to the Ohio supreme court to demand that every single precinct would participate in the upcoming recount. Just because the media haven’t been watching this story unfold, doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.
Whether you realize it or not, people in Ohio are extremely pissed off - they _know_ that what transpired there on election day was not the norm, and they suspect the worst.

“I might have felt differently if Kerry had won, but I hope I would have acted differently.”

I guess its just too bad that this pompous desire of yours will not be fullfilled by those of us who suspect that the election was stolen once again. Personally, I wish that the majority of American Liberals had not become so passively complacent that they won’t get out into the streets, bringing business to a screeching halt, to demand that our questions be answered and our democracy be saved, rather than allowing it to quietly creep toward totalitarianism.
I’ve got a lot of respect for those Ukrainians for doing what they’ve done.

“Even strongly held emotions and beliefs can be wrong.”

Our strongly held emotion that America should remain a democracy is not wrong. Our belief that the Ohio election had too many problems and glaring inconsistencies is not wrong, nor is the obvious fact that voting machines without paper trails invite theft - especially when the owner of the company is a partisan contributor who promised the Republican in office the election, nor is the fact that the elections supervisor for the state was also the Republican campaign manager for the state.

“Elections are not and never can be perfect.”

They can and should be nearly perfect. Would anyone here feel the same way if our bank or our ATM card didn’t work? If they erased our balance or denied us access? No. We expect near perfection from them, and we should expect near perfection from our elections, too. And yes, we would like a receipt, thank-you-very-much.

“Each time we find fraud or abuse, we have to counter it.”

That is exactly why we are discussing this topic. I don’t know about anyone else here, but a little of my money helped to make the Ohio recount a possibility - along with a whole lot of other small contributions donated by concerned Americans. That way, we can live with knowing that we tried to stop the crime of our elections being stolen.

“But there is no reason to believe the net abuse in Ohio changed the election.”

Only because you refuse to look. And because, you expect your TV to inform you about what is happening in this country and in the world, but here’s a newsflash for you - they have no intention of doing so.

“Bigfoot”

You know what you can do with that Bigfoot, Jack?
Oh right… almost forgot, message not messenger.

“You can fool all of the people some of the time and you can fool some of the people all of the time, but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time.”

Lincoln was a great man and a good president. He couldn’t abide racism and injustice being business as usual for rich American’s, and he wanted to hold the country together despite the wrongheadness and heartless greed of plantation owners, or any differences We The People had north and south.
Its a damn shame that today’s Republican’s don’t possess his sympathetic heart, moral clarity and intelligence.

Now we get bizarre quotes from our president that reveal the fact that he doesn’t even know what slavery was, or what Lincoln did for America:

“I had the opportunity to go out to Goree Island and talk about what slavery meant to America. It’s very interesting when you think about it, the slaves who left here to go to America, because of their steadfast, and their religion, and their belief in freedom, helped change America. America is what it is today because of what went on in the past.”
Dubya, Dakar, Senegal, Jul. 8, 2003

Adrienne,

About the quote which I assume you meant to attribute to President Bush:

He most likely meant to say, “Because of their steadfast and their religion and their belief in freedom, they helped change America.” It was obviously supposed to be two sentences; otherwise it makes no sense at all.

You can make fun of the president’s speaking mistakes (I do). But don’t try to tell us they are his real feelings.

FYI, here’s the entire speech.

He said, “I had the opportunity to talk…”
Later on I’ll see if I can find that speech, if it?s published, and get his real feelings on slavery.

Traveler:
“About the quote which I assume you meant to attribute to President Bush:”

I did attribute. Right underneath the quote.

“He most likely meant to say,”

Yes, that is just the trouble with him - we usually have to try to decipher what the hell he’s attempting to get at. That was my point in comparing one of his quotes with one of Lincoln’s, which were unfailingly intelligent, wise and succinct.

“Because of their steadfast”

That would be steadfastness, I suppose?
Well, I think the slaves had _no choice_ but to find strength and be steadfast in the face of so much unfairness, prejudice and adversity.

“and their religion”

Which was left behind when Christianity was imposed upon them after being stolen from Africa’s shores by heartless profitterring sons-of-bitches, who packed them like sardines in the hot, oven-like, filthy bilges of ships and let many of them die of diseases and dysentery, before selling whoever was left to other rich, land-owning, profiteering sons-of-bitches.

“and their belief in freedom,”

Which they had to wait for while being beaten and sold, and separated from their families, and worked almost to death, until Lincoln came along and we had to endure a bloody civil war that may well have rended America in two had the South won, before those people gained the rights to a freedom which they should have had all along. And it still took close to another hundred years before anything even resembling true freedom would come to fruition…

“they helped change America.”

They, through no fault of their own, created the wealthy class in the South - elites of the sort that Dubya likes to call, “his base”.

But yes, African-American’s did change the country - and for the better.

“It was obviously supposed to be two sentences; otherwise it makes no sense at all.”

Yeah, well, what should we expect from a man who admits that he doesn’t read?

“You can make fun of the president’s speaking mistakes (I do). But don’t try to tell us they are his real feelings.”

Well, seeing as he volunteered to work on a campaign for known racist and segregationist Winton “Red” Blount, we might have at least a small clue to his real feelings. FYI, this was during the time when he was awol from the Air National Guard.
And let’s not forget brother Jeb’s machinations and seeming lack of conscience when he decided to steal the election for his brother by disenfranchising black voters in the Florida elections.

George wrote:

You seem to infer guilt upon Mr. Blackwell because he refused to directly address Mr. Conyer’s questions. Could there be other reasons why Mr. Blackwell responded in the fashion that he did?

No George, there are no other reasons.

Jack,

Again, I must take exception to your condescending plea that we just drop this whole thing, because we live in an imperfect world and the media and Democratic Party don’t give a damn! As I’ve said repeatedly Jack, if you don’t find this a worthy subject matter to debate, then don’t!

“elites of the sort that Dubya likes to call, “his base”.”
- They were also called democrats weren’t they?

AMERICANS have changed America for the better.

I wonder who volunteered to work on a campaign for known racist, segregationist and Klan member/recruiter Byrd?

W and Jeb are racists now? Oh, thats right, ALL republicans are.
Still wouldn’t mind seeing “proof” of all this hate and racism though.

Keep blaming the evil republicans for EVERYTHING and then sit back and do nothing when the totally innocent liberals take over and our country will continue to go nowhere but down the sewer.

If it wasn’t for the absolute partisan tone and intentions of this vote fraud investigation, you liberals would maybe have more support from the common people.
But don’t worry, the next election when the evil republicans are claiming vote fraud, you will be sitting at your TV asking “what vote fraud? My side won, nothing is wrong.”
Then you will be the winners and the country will once again be the loser.

Kctim, not everything is in the Constitution. It is a rather short document after all.

I just find it funny the way people make a rather large deal of attempting to distinguish between a democracy and a republic. I was listening to a radio program a while back and heard the genisis of this argument.

The Goldwater Republicans introduced this thinking into the culture as a means to subtly change the tenor of speech. A republic sounds much more Republican than democracy. I think it’s a rather silly point.

Here’s one encylopedia entry:

liberal democracy
and another:
Liberal democracy

Greg,

For that reason, it’s too bad that the parties have the names they do.

That’s why I like the term “constitutional republic based on democratic principles.”

It’s the best of both worlds and still pretty accurate. ;-)

kctim:
“They were also called democrats weren’t they?”

No, they were called Dixiecrats. And they began being slowly absorbed into the Republican Party ever since the Democrats threw their support behind the black civil rights movement of the 1960’s.

“I wonder who volunteered to work on a campaign for known racist, segregationist and Klan member/recruiter Byrd?”

At least Byrd has publicaly admitted that it was wrong of him to put his political aspirations before his conscience.

“W and Jeb are racists now?”

Well, Dubya did help campaign for one (in the seventies no less, when most political hopefuls with any sense at all were trying desperately to distance themselves from any known segregationist), and he and Jeb stole an election through the disenfranchisment of black voters, so yeah, there is a pretty good chance they might very well be morally challenged that way.

“Oh, thats right, ALL republicans are.”

I wouldn’t go that far. Still, they do use things like racism and homophobia, and various other sorts of intolerance to further their agenda, don’t they?

“Still wouldn’t mind seeing “proof” of all this hate and racism though.”

Check out that US Civil Rights Commission Report, I think that it is pretty telling proof that racism is alive and well - and working out quite well for Republican Party candidates.

“Keep blaming the evil republicans for EVERYTHING”

Not all the Republicans are _evil_ in my opinion, just the Neo-con Republicans.

“and then sit back and do nothing when the totally innocent liberals take over and our country will continue to go nowhere but down the sewer.”

Tim, how many times must I remind you that I vote Green Party in all elections save the presidency? And that if there was any chance at all that a Green candidate could get into the oval office, my vote would undoubtedly go with them?

“If it wasn’t for the absolute partisan tone and intentions of this vote fraud investigation, you liberals would maybe have more support from the common people.”

How else could it appear but partisan, I wonder? The intentions of the investigations are to make sure we continue to live in a democracy where the one person, one vote idea will remain on behalf of the common people. If that appears generally partisan simply because of who won, I guess its just a cross we agitators will have to bear.

“But don’t worry, the next election when the evil republicans are claiming vote fraud, you will be sitting at your TV asking “what vote fraud? My side won, nothing is wrong.”

Wrong. As long as the elections seem to be running smoothly, without rampant complaint, and with a fully accountable paper trail, I’ll be accepting of the outcome. Until then, I intend to keep fighting for fairness, honesty, and transparency in our elections.

“Then you will be the winners and the country will once again be the loser.”

When transparent government and true democracy wins - everybody wins.

Greg
Thanks man. I was sincere in asking that. I really was going to scan for it when I got home.
There is a difference between the two and I will stay with the Constitutions intentions.
To me, a democracy and a republic a very different, but I won’t bore you in this thread :)
Perhaps someone will post a topic on it.

Nice Traveler.

Voter Fraud? Yes, every election.
Who? Both sides at one time/place or another.
Why? There are always people who believe the ends justify the means.
What can we do? Watch for it, and prosecute it. But what should not be done is make the assumption of guilt before innocence.

Blackwell didn’t answer some questions. It’d be more suspicious if he answered some, and not others, but he didn’t answer at all. It sounds like he’s not interested in letting anyone pick apart his answers for ‘admissions of guilt’.

People waited for hours to vote, its unfortunate indeed, however it can hardly be attributed to any _one_ person or party. As has been referenced already, There are equal numbers of Dems and Reps overseeing the voting precincts. Not to mention, it is not clear exactly how many machines were not used.

As for the Diebold accusations that continue to repeat themselves, the quote was from the CEO. The CEO supported Bush, does that mean everyone in the company does? There are enough people who work on the software for their machines that it is improbable that they all support Bush, and not a single one of them would come out and get rich off their story of programming machines to give votes to Bush. Its definitely an embarassing quote, and one that deserves reproach, but to infer that his political support extends into his company without proof is irresponsible.

We, the people, should be on the lookout for voter fraud where _we_ live, not just in some swing state. We must ask ourselves why Ohio is being focused on right now. Ohio is already targeted from the Diebold CEO comments, so there is suspicion. More importantly, Ohio has enough electoral votes to overturn the election. Whether that is what “you are trying to do” or not, its a key reason why Ohio is disputed, and NM is not.

I don’t mean to sound condesecending at all, but as a society with such great access to information and opinions, it is very easy to read and read and read, and form our opinions around what people whom we respect say. The problem is that we can easily fall into unquestioning loyalty to certain ideas without challenging them with our own reasoning. This is true for all people, I myself have certainly fallen victim to it in the past. But, is it reasonable to believe that the CEO of a company controls every detail of the production of all of his company’s products, and the workers are all mute? Is it hard to believe that someone like Ken Blackwell has been through the ringer enough that he doesn’t want to give answers to a bunch of questions that he knows will be over-analyzed?

Mainstream media

So all these millionaire journalist are kept quiet by a super secret conspiracy of big business. Even Tom Brokaw and Dan Rather, who were/are already on the way out, don’t dare utter a word. Of course, before the election, you couldn’t keep the Bush critics quiet. As a matter a fact, they are pretty vocal now. But they are cowed into submission by big business. You really can’t believe that.

Your ATM machine works most of the time. But every one of us has had a situation where the machine was broken, or it wouldn’t accept our card the first time or we couldn’t find a convenient machine, or had to wait in a line, or been afraid that the guy in back of us could read our code or we entered the code wrong and had to do it again. All these things you would call suppression in an election. We all know somebody who just can’t figure out how the ATM works or can’t put his code in right. The ATM record, by the standards you guys imply, is very bad.

Most people presumably have experience using their ATM and some still have troubles. Most people have less experience voting, simply because they only do it once every couple of years. A fair number of people can’t read well. Some don’t know how to use machines. You expect some errors and more errors occur for first time voters. Many of the anecdotes you all report are just what the person says. “I pushed the button for Kerry and it came up Bush.” Yeah. Let’s see if this guy can get the proper money out of his ATM on the first try before we take him too seriously.

Adrienne
Thanks. I will have to read up on the Dixiecrats alittle. I always thought they were just part of the democratic party.

How can you make excuses for Byrd but yet convict good ole Jebby based on speculation?

“Still, they do use things like racism and homophobia, and various other sorts of intolerance to further their agenda, don’t they?”
- Not that I’ve seen. Other than the gay marriage amendment, which is based more on personal opinion and not hate, I do not see where Republicans have said they hate anyone because of their race or sexual pref.

“how many times must I remind you that I vote Green Party in all elections save the presidency?”
- Ok then. Fine. Substitute democrat with Green and its the same ending. You would not fight to correct it if your candidate wins.

“How else could it appear but partisan, I wonder?”
- I do a pretty good job at it with this issue. Quit blaming Bush and republicans for everything. Quit saying how dumb he is but yet he was smart enough to fix the election.
Instead of the first words being “Bush is to blame” or “anybody but Bush,” try something like, “hey, there are some serious voting discrepancies in some of the states, they need to be looked into.
Do you really think that no fraud happened in any of the other states?

“Until then, I intend to keep fighting for fairness, honesty, and transparency in our elections.”
- Hmmm. Does that mean if Ohio really did go to kerry that you will fight alongside the Republicans for proper recounts in major cities, Penn and other states where Republicans claim fraud occurred?
Does this mean that, along with democrat claims of fraud, you are also looking into the Republican claims of fraud in Ohio, right now?
For some reason, I don’t believe so.
Bush is a REPUBLICAN and even if sworn affidavits from everyone who voted for him still showed he won, you all would still say Bush committed fraud.

The election was rigged, but its not a evil republican plot.

Well said AP!

Hey Jack, you forgot the ever embarrassing “denial after dinner” you get with those damn ATM cards also.
I DO have money in there!
Sure you do sir.
ARGH!!!

Here’s the latest on the Ohio story.

“Without listing specific evidence (why does that sound familiar?), the complaint alleges that 130,656 votes for Kerry and John Edwards in 36 counties were somehow switched to count for the Bush-Cheney ticket.
The allegations are based on an analysis comparing the presidential race to Moyer’s Supreme Court race against a Cleveland municipal judge.
But nothing in state law or any previous court decision allows challenges to be combined, Moyer said.”

So instead of showing specific cases of fraud, which they could probably do, they decide to take the conspiracy theory to the court. It didn’t do much to solve the problem did it?

Traveler
Kind of funny how that number is just enough to overtake Bush but still leave enough room to win after a recount that would be demanded by Republicans.

These people are barking up the wrong partisan tree.

To borrow from Shakespere: Me thinks you all doth protest a bit too much - over not wanting to see fair and accountable elections, and/or not wanting the light of suspicion to fall on the ticket that in fact, “won” the election.

Bert, excellent article. Keep up the good work.
kctim - watch out for playing devils advocate while wearing that tinfoil cap if theres a storm directly overhead.
Traveler - I encourage you to get that Greg Palast book out of the library if you can. He’s not a just some crazy far-left liberal, and its a very interesting read.
AParker - If Ohio hadn’t had so many people complaining, and if Ohio hadn’t had an election supervisor who did a terrible job of supervising while serving as a campaign manager for the winner, and if Ohio didn’t use whole lot of machines which are under the ownership of a blatantly partisan CEO, we wouldn’t have had any reason to demand a recount - but the state had all of that, and plenty more that was highly suspicious. We’d be stupid not to demand an investigation - it really is that simple.
Jack - I didn’t realize you’ve had to wait three hours in line to use the ATM (and here I always thought San Francisco was a crowded city!), or that it is either constantly wiping out your balance or crediting you with a whole lot of money you didn’t actually deposit (I don’t have such problems with my credit union). Must be a real roller-coaster ride, going to the bank, eh? I’d think a thing like that could make anyone become needlessly disparaging and thoughtlessly argumentative.

In the aggregate. Have you never had trouble with an ATM? I hear people complaining about a lot of things. You brought up the ATM example. I just pointed out that ATMs have many of the same problems you attribute to the voting: they break down; are not available everywhere; sometimes malfunction and are susceptible to human error.

You are very valiant to fight for this lost cause, but I suggest there are more worthy ones. No credible person in a position to know has brought up any systematic irregularities. Some political leaders are opportunistically trying to make points with the more credulous segments of the voting population.

adrienne,

um, Greg Palast is essentially a fiction writer, in the style of Gore Vidal and Micheal Moore.

Seriously though, I wish the left would go after this a little harder …and maybe a little shriller. It can only make the next election that much more ‘unfair’ and ‘disenfranchising’.

Eric,

The one great thing that I admire about Micheal Moore, is that he painstakingly takes on all of his detractors - in detail - on his website.

I’ve seem him pick apart criticism from Newsweek’s Michael Isikoff and Christopher Hutchens. Without fail, he responses in kind to many of the distortions and manipulations of his views and words.

He has proven that consistently and weakly sidestepping your most ardent critics, is not a good way of gaining respect and fostering credibility.

Michael Moore will no longer even appear on a talk show in the presence of his detractors.

I am convinced that Moore contributed to the Bush victory. He “convinced” those who already believed him and alienated everyone else. Those of us

He was scheduled to speak at George Mason University and was to be paid $35,000. George Mason is a public university and when the competent authorities found out, they said that Moore could certainly speak, but he would get the usual compensation (about $200).

Moore stood unsteadily on his hind legs and yelped censorship. He vowed to come anyway to George Mason and enlighten the benighted students with his pearls of wisdom and plain talk. Nobody was stopping him. In the absence of the 35k, he has so far failed to share his ideas with the student body. A real man of the people he is. $35,000 - that is about what this working class hero thinks four or five hours of his time is worth. Maybe somebody should make a documentary about him.

Here is the letter from John Conyers to an agent initiating investigation into voting fraud:
Letter from the Offices of Representative John Conyers, Jr.:

December 15, 2004

Mr. Kevin R. Brock
Special Agent in Charge
John Weld Federal Building
550 Main Street, Suite 900
Cincinnati, OH 45202

Attorney Larry E. Beal
Hocking County Prosecutor
Hocking County Courthouse
88 South Market Street
Logan, OH 43138

Dear Mr. Brock and Mr. Beal:

As part of the Democratic staff’s investigation into irregularities in the 2004 election and following up on a lead provided to me by Green Party Presidential Candidate, David Cobb, I have learned that Sherole Eaton, a Deputy Director of Board of Elections in Hocking County, Ohio, has first hand knowledge of inappropriate and likely illegal election tampering in the Ohio presidential election in violation of federal and state law. I have information that similar actions of this nature may be occurring in other counties in Ohio. I am therefore asking that you immediately investigate this alleged misconduct and that, among other things, you consider the immediate impoundment of election machinery to prevent any further tampering.

On December 13, my staff met with Ms. Eaton who explained to them that last Friday, December 10, Michael Barbian, Jr., a representative of Triad GSI unilaterally sought and obtained access to the voting machinery and records in Hocking County, Ohio, modified the computer tabulator, learned which precinct was planned to be the subject of the initial test recount and made further alterations based on that information, and advised the election officials how to manipulate the machinery so that the preliminary hand recount matched the machine count. Ms. Eaton first relayed this information to Green Party representatives, and then completed, signed and notarized an affidavit describing this course of events, a copy of which is attached.

The Triad official sought access to the voting machinery based on the apparent pretext that he wanted to review some “legal questions” the officials might receive as part of the recount process. At several times during this visit, Mr. Barbian telephoned into Triad’s offices to obtain programming information relating to the machinery and the precinct in question. I have subsequently learned that Triad officials have been, or are in the process of intervening in several other counties in Ohio - Greene and Monroe, and perhaps others (see attached).

There are several important considerations you should be aware of with respect to this matter. First, this course of conduct would appear to violate several provisions of federal law, in addition to the constitutional guarantees of equal protection and due process. 42 U.S.C. 1973 provides for criminal penalties against any person who, in any election for federal office, “knowingly and willfully deprives, defrauds, or attempts to defraud the residents of a State of a fair and impartially conducted election process, by … the procurement, casting, or tabulation of ballots that are known by the person to be materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent under the laws of the State in which the election is held.” 42 U.S.C. 1974 also requires the retention and preservation, for a period of twenty-two months from the date of a federal election, of all voting records and papers and makes it a felony for any person to “willfully steal, destroy, conceal, mutilate, or alter” any such record. Further, any tampering with ballots and/or election machinery would violate the constitutional rights of all citizens to vote and have their votes properly counted, as guaranteed by the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Second, the course of conduct would also appear to violate several provisions of Ohio law. No less than 4 provisions of the Ohio Revised Code make it a felony to tamper with or destroy election records or machines.1 Clearly, modifying election equipment in order to make sure that the hand count matches the machine count would appear to fall within these proscriptions.

Moreover, bringing in Triad officials into other Ohio Counties would also appear to violate Ohio Revised Code 3505.32 which provides that during a period of official canvassing, all interaction with ballots must be “in the presence of all of the members of the board and any other persons who are entitled to witness the official canvass,” given that last Friday, the Ohio Secretary of State has issued orders to the effect that election officials are to treat all election materials as if they were in a period of canvassing,2 and that “Teams of one Democrat and one Republican must be present with ballots at all times of processing.”3

Third, it is important to recognize that the companies implicated in the wrongdoing, Triad and its affiliates, are the leading suppliers of voting machines involving the counting of paper ballots and punch cards in the critical states of Ohio and Florida. Triad is controlled by the Rapp family, and its founder Tod A. Rapp has been a consistent contributor to Republican causes.4 A Triad affiliate, Psephos Corporation, supplied the notorious butterfly ballot used in Palm Beach County, Florida, in the 2000 presidential election.

Please respond to me at your earliest convenience through Perry Apelbaum or Ted Kalo of my Judiciary Committee staff, 2142 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, D.C. 20515 (tel 202-225-6504, fax 202-225-4423).

Sincerely,

John Conyers, Jr.

Enclosures

cc: The Honorable F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr.

1 Ohio Rev. Code Ann. 3599.27 provides “[n]o person shall tamper or attempt to tamper with, deface impair the use of, destroy or otherwise injure in any manner any voting machine…No person shall tamper or attempt to tamper with, deface, impair the use of, destroy or otherwise change or injure in any manner any marking device, automatic tabulating equipment or any appurtenances or accessories thereof.”

Ohio Rev. Code Ann. 3599.24 provides “[n]o person shall…destroy any property used in the conduct of elections.”

Ohio Rev. Code Ann. 3599.34 provides “[n]o person, from the time ballots are cast or voted until the time has expired for using them in a recount or as evidence in a contest of election, shall unlawfully destroy or attempt to destroy the ballots, or permit such ballots or a ballot box or pollbook used at an election to be destroyed; or destroy, falsify, mark, or write in a name on any such ballot that has been voted.”.

Ohio Rev. Code Ann. 3599.33 provides “[n]o person, from the time ballots are cast or counted until the time has expired for using them as evidence in a recount or contest of election, shall willfully and with fraudulent intent make any mark or alteration on any ballot; or inscribe, write, or cause to be inscribed or written in or upon a registration form or list, pollbook, tally sheet, or list, lawfully made or kept at an election, or in or upon a book or paper purporting to be such, or upon an election return, or upon a book or paper containing such return the name of a person not entitled to vote at such election or not voting thereat, or a fictitious name, or, within such time, wrongfully change, alter, erase, or tamper with a name, word, or figure contained in such pollbook, tally sheet, list, book, or paper; or falsify, mark, or write thereon with intent to defeat, hinder, or prevent a fair _expression of the will of the people at such election.”.

2 Mehul Srivastava, Greene County elections board scrutinized; Office containing ballots found unlocked overnight, Dayton Daily News, Dec. 12, 2004 at B1.

3 Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell, Directive 2004-48, Oct. 29, 2004, “Absentee/Provisional Counting and Ballot Security”.

4 Contributions of Tod A. Rapp

National Republican Congressional Committee

3/16/1998 - $250
2/15/1999 - $350
9/11/2000 - $350

Ohio State Central and Executive Committee

3/1/2001 - $200

Bush-Cheney 2004

2/2/2004 - $500

Republican National Committee

8/8/2003 - $250
2/3/2004 - $500

Source: WWW.FEC.GOV

AP Politics: “Two local elections officials resigned after investigations revealed mishandling of vote tallies in Gaston County, including more than 13,000 ballots that weren’t discovered until after Election Day.
“

“adrienne,
um, Greg Palast is essentially a fiction writer, in the style of Gore Vidal and Micheal Moore.”

The Baltimore Chronicle
“Book Review:
The Bes