Democrats & Liberals: Archives

Bert,
It is not who is in the White House that matters, there is an old saying in this country that goes something like this. If You Do Not Like the direction this country is going Stand Up and Change it.

Yes, I did support alot of Kerry’s ideas; however, I personally would of taken it alot further. Many Americans in this country voted on emotion not on educated facts. Given all the facts from both sides of the arguments that each made on any issue, I could of slammed both to the ground. No, Kerry lost the vote because he failed on two accounts.

First at the Democrat Convention, he should of laid out in detail how he would of used his position as president in 2003 to come to a different place with Iraq. Although our military would of been crooked longer, a responsible leader would of used his power of purswaysion(sp) to get the UN to sign onto a resolution that forced Saddam to step down from power, disarm his military and remove it. As well as hold unfeathered inspections and removal of material like that found in Al QaQAA.

Secondly, he should of stood up to the neo-cons over Viet Nam and Nixon’s Police State. Any mention of Kent St Ohio in 1971 from Kerry would of quilled any remarks from the Neo’s would want to make. Atleast I think they have learned their lesson, but we will see. Voting irregularities are still being found as we speak.

The failure of the Democrats to seperate the neo’s from the rest of the party was Kerry’s call and should of been done. No, Bush did not win this election based on how great he lead, but because Kerry for whatever reason did not take Bush out by dividing his base. Could you imagine if the republicans had another Watergate? It would surely be the end of their party.

Bert & Henry
I won’t give this a rest. It’s the major story, and I know, I know, no one wants to face this one. There are lies, damnable lies, and statistics. Nothing is proven, but I believe it will be. Tonight Keith Oberman on MSNBC picked up the story about the… uh… unusual voting numbers from Florida. For example, rural counties in Florida with 85% Democratic registration came up with 85% of their votes for Bush- but only in counties using Opti-scan. Other rural counties with 85% Democratic registration which used E-Touch voted heavily for Kerry, matching predictions. There’s much, much more to this story. Six congressman are launching an investigation, which will land in the Judiciary Committee.

An election fraud of huge proportions was perpetrated in Florida through PC’s (not servers with firewalls, but incredibly, mere PC’s)used to tabulate votes. It was done by altering a commonly used database, Access. I am not a technical wizard, but I believe it is traceable if the PC’s hard drives are examined for the keystrokes used to alter the data. Hopefully it is not too late.

There is nothing that can be done until it’s proven. I think it can be proven.

No one- and I mean, no one- wants this to be the case. It sounds like sour grapes, I’m well aware. Kerry has conceded, as he should have- it’s done. But there are too many large discrepancies in the voter tabulations for Florida. Before investing too much energy in second guessing party strategies, watch this story. It’s breaking into the national media, and could well be the most explosive & damaging political event for our country since Watergate.

Don- the election results in Florida were completely consistent with the majority of polling right up to election day. Florida was basically a tie last time, with an unpopular gov. Jeb Bush and this time it was a win for W. because his brother is very popular. I know it hurts, but you are tilting at windmills.

Florida was hardly the closest- the margin was almost 400,000! Pennsylvania was only 110,000- why arent democrats looking into that state? hmm… gee.. i wonder…

Anyway, if it makes you feel better, keep looking into this “problem”. But at least dont pretend like this pure speculation “could well be the most explosive & damaging political event for our country since Watergate.” Thats kind of misleading double-talk would be like pre-war sound bites that sounded like: “Iraq could very well give nuclear weapons to terrorists…”

yes yes, we should be above political double-talk like “a vote for kerry is a vote for the terrorists”,,,

ooh….you meant us……

Misha,
You might want to look into this a little further. Is there a paper trail for the vote in PA? Aaah. The oddities with the Florida vote can be specifically identified with tabulations using Opti-scan. To back up a moment… The Florida results were most certainly not consistent with the exit polls, which are normally the most accurate of polls taken. Now polls are polls, and votes are votes, and obviously votes are what count, period; but exit polls tend to be more reliable than other polls because they exclude considerations of ‘likely’ voters versus ‘registered’ voters. It is precisely because they tend to be accurate that the media do not use them to make calls on who won before the polls close.

Exit polls in Florida showed Kerry with a 2% lead.

Again, those are only exit polls, and by itself that issue does nothing more than raise eyebrows.

The polls taken immediately before the election (see electoral-vote.com) have four showing Kerry ahead, & four showing Bush ahead. Obviously too close to call. In the election, Bush won by 5%. This is astounding, partcularly in light of the exit polls.
I’m not sure how any of this would qualify as “misleading double-talk.” I’ll say it again. Nothing is proven. I’m not suggesting that Bush should not be inaugurated, or the result overturned, regardless of how this turns out. However, there is a wealth of circumstatial evidence that something bizarre happened with the Florida vote tabulations, an incredible statistical oddity on a large scale. Vote tampering is a serious felony which strikes at the heart of our system.
Following this story does not make me feel better. Just the opposite, in fact. But if there’s anything to it, then this issue trumps everything else, and makes the rest irrelevant.
By the way, you make a good point about Jeb Bush. He handled the hurricane situations well, and no doubt gave his bro a boost.

As a matter of fact Don,

Keith Olbermann’s Countdown is my primary source for TV news, and yes I saw the report.

You’re correct that there are simply too many daily reports of ‘inaccuracies’ surfacing, not to look into them. Buzzflash.com has been a good source for a round-up of the latest news and investigations.

Misha, I’m disappointed that you would dismiss Don’s concerns, out of hand. You’re obviously familiar with some of the election’s results, but your opinion could benefit from the credible evidence and convincing analysis that is out there.

Rep. John Conyers (D) has been joined by an increasing number of Congressmen in asking the GAO to launch an investigation. Interviewed on the same show, it was clear his intent was not to overthrow Bush’s election, but fix obvious flaws that would prevent future disenfranchisement of voters.

Hello,

I am going to try to answer a question that seems to keep appearing everywhere I look. That is the connection between the war in Iraq and terrorism. There never was a connection. The war in Iraq was being planned long before 9–11. There is plenty of documentation available to support my saying that.

The war in Iraq is a war that is being fought for the reason of the “Grand Globalist Vision”, not as a result of terrorism.

Now, before everyone decides to write me off as “just another conspiracy nutcase”, let me further explain just what conclusions I have arrived at and where these conclusions have come from.

First off, I am anything but a conspiracy nutcase. I am a 51 year old realist, and I have been observing these things since childhood. The conclusions I have reached are a result of watching events and conditions that have been developing over many years, but especially beginning in the Vietnam Era and leading up to the current times we are living in. To my surprise, I now realize that we, as a society, have not been able to come to grips with the Civil War, let alone the Vietnam War. The results from the 2004 election map may have finally settled the Civil War, but we may need another hundred years or so to even begin to figure out the Vietnam War, let alone get on to debating what we are doing in Iraq. Even after the people who participated in a war die off, their offspring carry it with them for many generations. In the things I am about to describe, many may be obvious, others may appear obscure. But please bear with me and follow this to the end. Then, tell me how much sense it makes to you.

As a child growing up in the 1950’s, I was not aware of politics until the Kennedy era, at which point, being from a rather staunch Republican family, I became aware of the political nature of the world by hearing discussions by my parents on that election. I may elaborate on that later. Suffice to say, at the start of the Nixon era, I began to notice that rather different things were occurring on the world scene. And I don’t mean just Vietnam. We were taken from the gold standard as a monetary policy and an overture to bring China out of isolation, into the forefront of the world began. Has anyone out there asked why? Bear in mind that we are a small fraction of the total population of the world. China and India together account for over 2 billion people. Throw in the Islamic nations and you’re over 3 billion. Not so in 1968, but you could see it coming.

I have noticed that most people tend to think that a lot of the current ‘goings on’ are disjointed, and seem to be dismayed at what is happening to and in our country. Let me assure you, most if not all, are well connected. Things such as the trade treaties like Nafta and Gatt, the WTO and the like, our Open Border policies even after 9-11, the outsourcing of good paying American jobs, the last 2 elections, the new buzzwords such as Neo Con’s. They are all connected. By the way, a “Neo Con is nothing new really. They used to like to be called the “New World Order”. That was during the Bush 41st administration. A lot of people got scared by that name. Now they go by the name of “Neo Con”, or the “Globalists’s”.

What I am saying is that there is a big picture to most all of this.

Now, to address the part where I am liable to be called a conspiracy theorist, please allow me the following questions;

1. Has anyone else noticed the name “The Council On Foreign Relations” that has appeared on the mainstream media since 9-11? By mainstream, I mean CNN, Fox, MSNBC and probably ABC, CBS and NBC also. The Council On Foreign Relations, which I will subsequently refer to as the CFR, is a non-governmental think tank agency that has been in existence since 1921, and it has been extremely instrumental in shaping our foreign policy, especially since the end of World War 2. Why does it seem that most any American that you mention this agency to, has never heard of it? Its membership is what can be called illustrious. Every Secretary of State and Secretary of Defense since World War 2, with the exception of Henry Stimson in the last Roosevelt Administration, has been a member of this agency. It includes the leaders of transnational corporations. And virtually all people who matter in the world of business, finance and the media. It’s membership includes the current Vice President, and virtually all of GW’s cabinet. Henry Kissinger is a current member, he has been since before his position of Secretary of State under Richard Nixon. Does anyone out there wonder why, whenever something goes on in the world involving our foreign policy, why does Henry Kissinger show up on a news show to explain it to us? He’s getting rather tired and old looking. This is a man who presided over the rather poor ending to our involvement in Vietnam, a man who was part of a criminally indicted administration under Richard Nixon. Why is he considered an expert on these matters? He certainly didn’t hold a cabinet level position as long as some other’s I can think of. Henry has been the so called ‘leg man’ for the CFR for years, going around the world, getting things done for us. He has been involved in establishing US foreign policy long after his rather disappointing performance during the Nixon era. It seems that if you are a member of this agency, your power doesn’t even have to hold a position at the cabinet level or otherwise. The stated objective of the CFR is to export the American vision into the rest of the world. And furthermore, these people regard the American Revolution as an ongoing experiment, one that has yet to come to full fruition. Did I miss something along the way? I was told a different story growing up as a child. A story about how ours was the greatest system of self governance ever devised by mankind. A system that the rest of the world envied. One that people would risk their lives to partake in. It was an established thing, not an unfinished experiment. Something that we would use to help others in the world to become better. I don’t believe that meant forcing them to partake at the end of a gun barrel.

Until 9-11 occurred, this agency was never mentioned to the public by name. Not ever. They didn’t hide either though. You could look into them if you knew to. They even publish a magazine called “Foreign Affairs”. And anyone who wants to may subscribe. Since 9-11, it seems that they have come out of the closet, so to speak, and have claimed their legitimate place as the pre-eminent experts on terrorism and how we must conduct the war on such. Since 9-11, I have seen all kinds of high level politicians, including John Kerry, Dick Cheney, Rumsfeld and others, speak at meetings of the CFR, as shown on CNN and other news shows like FOX etc. . The teal blue wallpaper, covered with the name, “The Council On Foreign Relations”, in white, always decorates the background when they are being videotaped as they are speaking

2. When Ron Silva, the actor, came out to speak against the so-called left wing actors that were challenging the Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive war, did anyone else notice that they mentioned Ron Silva as a member of the CFR? He was introduced on CNN as ‘Ron Silva, Member of The Council On Foreign Relations’, both verbally and on the subtitle on the screen below the video. They brought him out to speak as opposition to the majority of the actors who were against going to war with Iraq. He started to appear on the news before the war began. They no longer mention that he is a CFR member when he is seen. He made quite a few appearances on the Scarborough on MSNBC, leading up to the election.

I will advise those of you that are curious, to do some research into the CFR, “SEE WHAT THEIR GOALS AND AMBITIONS ARE, and draw further conclusions on your own.”

I do however want to make the following assumption. These persons from this agency have been guiding and directing our foreign policy for years.

“THIS WAR, THE ELECTION OF 2000 AND EVERYTHING WE HAVE GONE THRU SINCE, IS A PRODUCT OF THEIR STATED GOALS AND AMBITIONS FOR AMERICA’S PLACE IN THE WORLD, AND THE SHAPING OF WORLD POLICY.” When the “Neo Con’s” came into the White House with George Bush, one of them made the statement, “The pendulum has swung our way.” “It will never swing back again.” I can’t attribute it to a particular person, but it is a rather unnerving statement to say the least.

In the weeks leading up to the war, I said several times that this war had the CFR’s fingerprints all over it. I didn’t have a clue as to what they were after, but anything on a global scale, involving America, has something to do with something they want done. I made that statement to my girlfriend about a week and half before the war started. Everyone I knew was worried before the war started, myself included. The next day, at about 12;45 PM, a person from the CFR appeared on CNN. I can’t remember his name. It doesn’t matter, as it was a name I hadn’t seen before. Most CFR members aren’t widely known. They don’t run for elective office. They prefer to serve in appointed cabinet level positions. The man was being interviewed by one of CNN’s commentators, (I can’t remember who that was either). There may be a transcript though.

Anyway, the topic was “Why are we rushing into this war?”
Why not wait until the inspectors finish their job?

The response from the CFR member, as closely as I can recall, was;

“This war is not about oil, and it is not about George Bush getting even for the assassination attempt on his father. He said “What this war is about is globalism”. “Sure, they have lots of oil in some of the countries in that region”. “And they are willing to sell us that oil”. “But, they are not willing to trade with us, nor will they enter into any treaties involving trade”. “They don’t want to buy anything from us”. “They don’t want anything we have to offer”.

The next statement he made was almost prophetic, in that a little more than a year later, it became the explanation by the President for the reason we went to war. That is after the President could not use WMD’s anymore as the reason.

What he gave as the reason for war was as follows;

“This war must be fought sooner or later”. “And better sooner than later”. We must go into that region of the world, and establish a stable democracy, as a model for the other Islamic nations to pattern themselves after”. “They must come on board to join the Global Community, they are the only part of the world that has not gone along with globalism.”

These were the words GW used to explain why we went there when the WMD thing fell apart, however, he left out the globalism part.

After seeing this news commentary, I felt I had the answer to what this war was about. GW’s cabinet consists of CFR members, virtually from A to Z. The illustrious Condoleeza Rice is one of them. Donald Rumsfeld also. Cheney too. Anyone wondering why he isn’t too concerned about the Bush legacy. Or about being president someday? Or, are the likes of the Halliburton’s of this world the people that our government is now working for and serving their interests’ only? Anyone who truly thinks that Hitler was the last person who wanted to take over the world is fooling themselves. None of the names mentioned do I believe aspire to world domination as such, But they certainly wish to have a part and share in the benefits of controlling the politics and economies of the world. And, in doing so, they are going to take a tremendous toll on the middle class of America. It is both because of us and from us that they have arrived at their level of power, which they now wield over and upon us. They get what they set out to acquire. Always have . Or at least they have so far. The secrecy and divisiveness of this administration is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. We are not yet fully aware of all that they have accomplished in the 4 years that they have already had. And, they are so close to completing the Grand Global Vision, that I feel that they will let nothing get in their way. It is so close now they can taste it.

To understand people of this nature, you must first be able to try to understand who they are and where they have come from. Most, but not all, are Americans, but not Americans like most of us. They are the culturally, morally and intellectually elite of America. Or at least, that is how they perceive themselves. To live as one of them I shall give the following analogy;

If your name is David Rockefeller, for example, when you get up in the morning, your thoughts are not those of “What can I run to WalMart and get today to make myself happy, maybe something I need or want?” David Rockefeller doesn’t see the inside of most stores to begin with. It’s all bought and delivered by someone else. Remember Bush 41 being totally surprised by a bar code scanner? Being a Rockefeller, if you awaken and seem bored with living in your New York penthouse, you can always get on your personal private jet and fly off to your mansion in India, or your estate in South America. When you arrive there, you are welcomed with open arms, as you bring with you business and jobs for the locals and maybe for that country as a whole. Even though you are an American, you can easily consider yourself as a member of the global village, the one that you have helped to create and shape. And you must busy yourself with things such as how to make it a better place for you and all your friends. Certainly, you don’t need to worry about day to day survival like most of us have to. And of course, being morally, culturally and intellectually superior, what you are doing is going to be good for all of mankind, because of course, you are in a positio9n to know what is best for us. These are the kinds of things you are obligated to worry about, that is if your name is Rockefeller, or like so many other people that fall, or have fallen, into this category. You’re obligated because it is your way of giving something back to the world, to pay your dues so to speak. No matter what the little people think, they don’t know any better, and they certainly have no right to play in this game. You’re going to make this world a better place for them too. Kind of like supply side, trickle down economics, so to speak. These elitists have convinced themselves that the war in Iraq is necessary to complete their global vision.

As the man from the CFR stated in the interview I mentioned, “The Islamic nations as a whole reject globalism”. “We must get them on board”.

Now, please stop and consider that they have gotten all of the other regions of the world involved in this vision of Globalism.
All including China, the entire Asian region, Europe, the former Soviet Empire, North and South America. This was all part of what was called the Trilateral Commission under the Carter administration. Every part of the world that matters. Except the Muslim world, which has over 1 billion members. I don’t want to sound like Michael Moore here, I haven’t seen his movie about 9-11, But, the Islamic nations do not want to be part of this. I don’t necessarily agree with their lifestyle or customs, but we would be well advised to discuss what they want from life and how they feel they should live it. Our political elitists feel that they already know what they want and need, and are determined to give them such. And that is the only connection I can possibly establish between the war in Iraq and 9-11. They want us to leave them alone. The Amish inside our own country want the same thing. And a few others also. I don’t think that we would have had a 9-11, if our leadership wouldn’t have tried to get into their world and change their way of life. From the globalist perspective, Iraq was the only real place that we could possibly take over, and I really mean possibly, because the reality of it seems a bit distant at the moment. They thought it would work out quite well, that we would be welcomed as liberators. Iran or Syria would have been much more difficult. And even though we went, quite justifiably and rather successfully, into Afghanistan, that country doesn’t have much wealth to be of use to the globalists.

We, as Americans, have been lied to and misled on countless occasions. We are told almost daily about how we are the economic powerhouse of the world. If we go down, everyone else goes too. I used to believe that, but not anymore. Watch the news. China has surpassed us in producing automobiles. They produce all of our high tech items. Try to find any high tech item, computer components or otherwise that is not made in China.
I know, as not only do I repair these things, but I own quite a few. In case no one noticed, it has been stated on the mainstream media this past week, that China will be the economic and technological powerhouse of the world from hereon. We basically created their new economy. That is, the elitist globalist group, of what I call former Americans, now known as members of the global community.

It is their dream, not the dream of regular Americans. That is, regular Americans, who were brought up to believe that ours was the greatest system the world have ever conceived. We were led to believe that that wouldn’t change, unless by amendments to our Constitution. But the globalists have decided that this is something too good just to be reserved for Americans only. It is our duty to export it to the world, it will make the world a better place. Indeed it may, but I think we would be well advised to ask first if that is their wish.

I am going to end this by asking the following:

1. How many of you have given any thoughts to the amounts of money that will be made when the Islamic world gets their dose of free market capitalism? As I mentioned, they have over a billion members, and I can only dream of the money that will be made when they too welcome the WalMart’s, Kmart’s, Kentucky Fried Chicken’s and all the other transnational corporations into their world. As China and India already done . And who are the people who will reap the benefit of these monies? I can’t wait until they introduce them to credit cards. Were Americans asked if they wanted to help to build the world’s economies, to be exploited by the already wealthy, by the exportation of our jobs, technology and entire industries? You cannot exploit the earnings of the other approximately 6 billion inhabitants of the earth, unless they have jobs with which to make money they can spend. And our jobs were the only ones that were available to give to them. That’s why we have so few today.

2. Does anyone really believe we are still the economic engine of the world? We are beyond our limits in all ways that I can think of. We don’t make much that matters here anymore. Why is that? Approximately $7 trillion of federal debt, an incredible trade deficit, most to China, and the average American at the end of their borrowing ability. I just saw on the tube that we are borrowing $2 billion a day, mostly from China, to just pay the interest on our national deficit. There are about 300 million Americans today, and we have been exploited economically about as far as we are able to go. Is it so hard to see that there are much greener pastures to exploit in the rest of the world? Is it so hard to see that the wealthiest of us are seeing the equivalent of the “Wild West” in other parts of the world? The giving away of America appears to have been done to make that possibility a reality.

3. Why do we have such a hard time believing the truth when we are told it? It seems we prefer the lies that we are fed daily. The entire election was based on lies. John Kerry was a good man. So is John McCain. Both of them had their reputations trashed by the Karl Rove machine, albeit in two different elections. There was no gay marriage issue in the Midwestern states. But Rove and company certainly made it an issue. They don’t need to kill anyone, just discredit and destroy the opponent’s reputation. I have seen this occur over and over again. Although, I have to say that I would not put killing past them if someone really gets in their way. After seeing what was done in this election, it’s almost amazing that the voting margin was as slim as it was. It’s not a real mandate, but it will be used as if it were overwhelming.

4. One of the most glaring lies that I have seen over several Presidencies is that of China being able to strike the US with nuclear missiles in several more years. Both Clinton and Bush have used that one. For anyone who is curious, we went to China in 1983 to have our orbital satellites put into space after the Challenger accident. NASA was unable to accommodate our needs and China put them into orbit on their Long March missiles. And they had thermonuclear weapons years before that. Why the big lie? China had the capability to launch nuclear weapons on the US years ago. If they could put payloads accurately into orbit, they could much more easily launch a sub-orbital nuclear weapon across a space of half the globe. And why do we choose to call it China nowadays, and not Red China? It is still a communist regime.

5. Why are we determined to allow the divisiveness that is going on today? My only answer to that one is that we have been duped into it, we prefer it, as the majority really seem to be enjoying the results of this election. As was said, United We Stand, Divided We Fall. Karl Rove and company understand the precept well and have been able to implement in ways that most of us couldn’t have imagined. Wherewith the targeted cell phone calls, with different divisive messages to different groups, all of them playing upon fears of the other. When you pit the people against each other, especially in a country as diverse as ours, then no one is looking at what you are doing. And when they figure it out, well, as they say, the game is over.

6. All of the world’s great empires have been dissolved from within. Am I off base by wondering if that is what is happening to us? Are we being divided for someone else’s purpose? I have heard other Americans say that we did these things to ourselves. One of my customers told me one day that Americans demanded cheap televisions that they could go to WalMart and buy. That they didn’t want to pay the money to have them made here by an American. My response to that was “Wait a minute, I’m a little too old to swallow that one”. “I’ve been in this business since 1971, and I remember when a man I worked for sold TV’s and appliances.” All of them were American made”. “And, no one complained at all, at paying $450 to $800 to buy a good floor model television”. “In fact, the product he was selling was so well made that they usually lasted for quite a few years.’ “Most things were back then”. “The way he sold was similar to buying a car.” “He set the price at the MSRP, and then he would haggle with the customer.” “They walked away happy, feeling as if they got a good deal, which they did, he made a reasonable profit and all was well.” “Unless of course it quit working.” “And, as soon as it was repaired, they were fine with it all.” So tell me, how did we do this to ourselves? How are we the people responsible? I’m beginning to think that I may have slept too late a couple of days and really missed something.

7. Should the families of the countless number of soldiers we will lose in this war know the truth about what there loved ones have given their lives for? For the rights of our most privileged to earn even more wealth? We have been told the war in Iraq is about protecting us from further harm. I would like to know whose interests are being protected by this war?

8. I’d really like to know if a Gore administration might have taken the warnings that were obvious to some before 9-11 more seriously than the Bush camp did? But of course, that can never be answered. I’m not trying to say that the globalist’s wouldn’t have been in a Gore administration. Jimmy Carter’s was full of them. But there is an air of arrogance and secrecy in this administration that is only approximated by the Nixon administration. It’s ironic that almost all the players in GW’s cabinet, at least those as old as he is, can be traced right back to the Nixon administration. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove, they all trained there. And , of course, George the elder, who became Ambassador to China in those days.

I choose not to live in fear. But I must admit that is becoming more difficult as time goes on. Especially with our current administration. It seems to me that we have been taken over, albeit without anyone firing a shot. As far as the broad middle class in America, I feel that our days are numbered, if not already over.

In closing I shall quote the infamous words said by Napoleon in the late 1800’s, “Let China sleep, for when she awakens, the world will be sorry”.

By the way, for anyone who has bothered to take the time to read this all the way thru, I am a white male American of the Heinz 57 variety, half German in ancestry, and the rest Welsh, Dutch, English, and some more that I am not totally aware of.

Thank you for letting me speak. I’m not sure how much longer this may be possible to do so in America. If any of this makes sense to you, please copy it and spread it around. If the truth doesn’t get out, we will all be doomed to submit to the Neo Con’s and their New World Order Agenda

Anyone interested in what is going on with the voter fraud/terror problem just has to go to BLACKBOXVOTING.ORG HERE or BradsBlog.com HERE

Currently, it seem that our homeland security is getting involved in the act. WAPAKONETA, Ohio (Home of Neil Aemstrong) has the highest percentage of Bush votes and Warren County was put under Homeland security lockdown.

This story is growing legs quick due to fact that Al Qaeda may of hacked the systems. If they do find out it was some Americans, death will not be good enough for them.

Ken:

The most I can say is “Wow!!”

My next comment is to suggest that you provide citations for quotes, rather than saying, “I can’t attribute it to a particular person, but it is a rather unnerving statement to say the least”, or “(I can’t remember who that was either). There may be a transcript though.”, or “The response from the CFR member, as closely as I can recall, was…”

My last comment is to recommend that you condense your prose, so that maybe people will read it. Even though you take a wildly partisan slant at things, it could be worth reading it.

Oh boy. I was hoping we wouldnt get into this conspiratorial stuff, but I guess its inevitable given the high emotions around this campaign. Guys- I was a pretty partisan conservative in the 1990s, so I know all about how circumstantial evidence can lead someone inclided to believe a particular point of view to make rash (even outlandish) conclusions. I remember actually being convinced at one point that Bill Clinton purposefuly sold nuclear secrets to China for campaign contributions. I also did a survery for liberal websites during the last four years, including ones that used circumstantail evidence to show Bush knew about 9/11 all along…. I have grown up a good bit since the 1990s, and now see the error of my ways.

To suggest that there is election fraud SO great in Florida that it will overwhelm a 400,000 vote margin given the amount of close watching of the election down there is absurd on its face. To say it based on exit polls, which were completely wrong last time too (and which were wrong for EVERY state this time, not just florida- um yeah, south carolina was too close to call, 58% of those polled in some states being women ect…).

Now i am NOT saying that there couldnt have been some funny business going on in one county or another- and i FULLY support any investigation launched by indepedent sources to find out if there was anything like that (I wont trust the investigation if it is done by left-wing websites- nor should you).

I guess what gets my goat is that I felt people for the last 4 years had tried to do everything to say Bush’s win was not legit, and I thought this kind of talk was over given bush’s win by such signifigant margins in battleground states. Mostly, even the extreme partisans like Micheal Moore, Al Sharpton ect. have dropped the eligitimate crap. And, by the way, I would be saying the same thing if conservatives were doing this about a Kerry win, as I am not a Bush supporter nor did I vote the man.

And I went to that website you posted- trust me man- some day you will feel very foolish for frequenting webstires run by partisans like that. How would you feel if someone argued “facts” to you and then directed you to a website that called Kerry a liberal-in-line-with-the-islamo-fascists-to-over-throw-America. These kinds of partisan places will poison your mind, and cannot and SHOULD not be used in any serious argument on a place like watchblog, which favors facts over crazy theories. I did my own search on google abotu this and could not find one credible source (that is, even from the left-leaning media) that would back up any sort of claim that a 400,000 vote discrepancy could have happend in Florida.

Again, I think the reason you guys are on this kick is not because you can seriously believe Bush stole the election thsi time- its just wishful thinking from peopel who are really hurt that the results did not come out there way. I understand it, but its bad for America to toss out websites who ridiculous agendas like this one as “fact.” In fact, it makes me really upset that you would even link to such a website to back up your claims- this is one of the things that is so wrong with American politics today.

Misha,

The website I linked to had many more subsequent links to evidence and analysis that backs up my assertion. The fact that you would cite the most extreme item on the site (although you would not identify what it was), as an overall dismissal of it’s content, smacks of disingenuous patronizing.

There was no need to do a Goggle search, when the site also offered links to Ohio State Board of Elections sites with highly dubious and conflicting voting results.

You obviously had your own agenda and didn’t want to waste any words giving our claims any consideration.

Wow, Ken! I’ve been trying to become a Freemason so I can get in on the world domination action, and you’re telling me that the CFR are the guys I should be looking at!?

It just so happens that I’m already a subscriber to Foreign Affairs magazine. So far I haven’t gotten any info on the secret handshake. But look at the CFR board of directors. It looks like a Bilderberg Group who’s who: Robert Rubin, Richard Holbrooke, Madeleine Albright… And look at all the international bankers… Hmm… Maybe you’re on to something. ;)

Staying on topic:
If these liberals favor a socialist democracy over a Constitutional REPUBLIC, then they should move to Canada. Especially if they would be happier there. Unfortunatly, they will get dual citizenship and will continue to eat away at our form of govt until the US becomes a democracy and is totally ruined.

As far as the european countries, WHO CARES WHAT THEY WANT!
Our Consitutional REPUBLIC is the most successful and longest lasting form of govt in the world.
The europeans are failing, socialist democracies. Unstable, unrealiable and unfair to its citizens. Why should we become more like them?

“Bush’s victory validates everything I feared about the American people, but not the Constitutional democracy we fail to live up to.”
- It also validates what I fear.
40% of the people either do not undertand that we are a Constitutional REPUBLIC or they wish to knowingly destroy our REPUBLIC.

So, if people would rather live in canada, please go as soon as possible. It will only help us in becoming The UNITED States of America once again.

Bert, excellent post. I read Part 1 on your blog. As one of the 0.7% of Americans who has a passport and uses it regularly, I also find many of my fellow Americans provincial. What we need is a good global war to get the boys off the farm again. :)

Seriously, when you say,

The reason we can believe a representative democracy can be established in an Islamic nation, is by sheer ignorance of their culture, faith and history.

You’re absolutely right. I’d also like to add that we ignore our own history and culture of liberal democracy starting with the Magna Carta in 1215 and including the centuries of warfare, cultural upheaval and civil war that continues to this day.

To think that we’ll give the Iraqi people a liberal democracy just by letting them vote ignores the fact that Saddam’s Iraq was technically a democracy, as is Iran.

Liberty isn’t purely a matter of having an election. The Nazi Party got voted into office. But on the other side of the single party spectrum, Singapore’s ruling People’s Action Party is fairly liberal, almost totally uncorrupt, and conducive to a happy multi-ethnic and multi-religious population.

So if Bush pulls out after the election in January, as seems likely, it’ll probably be a loss for us. We never should have handed over the government until Iraq was secure, had an uncorrupt judiciary, a competent constabulary, and a tradition of peaceful transition of power. Handing Iraq over to a UN mandate and NATO peacekeepers after the invasion would have been ideal.

Like Francis Fukuyama, one of the conservative’s intellectual elites, I find it hard to imagine a series of events that will lead to a good outcome.

“There’s a much easier path towards civil war than there is to a stable, democratic Iraq. In the long run, this has not made us more secure, it has made us less secure. It is appalling.”

every single link on that cite is anti-Bush. How can you trust a place like that? why would your waste your time (and our time) using that as a source? Why not actually go to a place that tries to get both sides?

Misha,

These days when something is called anti-Bush, that generally means it is the truth.

You seriously think that website is concern about truth? If there were credible reports of Democrats engaging in voter fraud, do you honestly think they would fully report that? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you. Like i told you above, some day you will feel pretty silly by giving creadance to people like this…

Bert-

Aren’t you moving to Amsterdam?

Anyway, the Democrats need to re-frame this debate based upon socio-economic concerns and away from political ideology. They should be viewed as the good guys for most in the red states; representing the wealth producers against the wealthy; a champion for the little guy, for fairness, for equality. Instead they are viewed as liberal elites, rich people who think they know what is right for all of the “idiots” out there who don’t have the time or desire to understand the real issues.

Thirty years ago if you were to characture the Republicans it would have been Rockefeller. Now it’s Farwell, Graham, or the evil Rove.

The same for the Democrats thirty years ago might have been a farmer, a steel worker, or a “NASCAR Dad” (they had those back then). Now it’s Soros, Goldberg and Streisand.

I still go back to the profound changes in this country’s political climate caused by the Gipper. He is the one who fundamentally shifted the debate away from the socio-economic advantage held by the Democrat Party and put it squarely on political ideology. He made it cool to be socially conservative, and many followed him, against their own economic self interests in most cases, to the party of Lincoln. Remember, Reagan was once a Democrat himself.

Progressives are at a cross-road. Do they give up on this country that they do not understand or maybe do not care to understand? Do they relinquish their feelings that their political ideals are superior and that they are on the plus side of the issues if only they could better educate the idiotic masses? Or do they whine, fuss, complain about Republican dirty tricks, and further relinquish political control to a GOP that’s only saving grace has been to make room for socially moderate to conservative voices?

Re-framing the debate is not a move to the right; it is a return to what made the Democratic Party so great. Adding a conservative voice to a socio-economic focus will strengthen the Democratic Party, not make it “Republican lite.” But to do this progressive thinking people must be willing to relinquish some amount of control back to the old Reagan Democrats who have a different political ideology but who want many of the same socio-economic outcomes.

Misha,
I’m not able to follow your exchange with Bert about the reliability of a web site. Which site? While I find conspiracy theories entertaining, amusing, or perhaps even thought-provoking, along the lines of Ken’s post, I’m well aware of the trap, the one of coming to a conclusion and then finding facts to fit it. I have not attempted to follow the questions about the Ohio vote. I’m being as specific as possible, and I’m only referring to the Opti-Scan tabulations used in Florida. Like most people, I don’t pay much attention to stories of voter fraud when it’s on a small scale. As previously stated, some small scale cheating by individuals on both sides is predictable, and unlikely to affect the outcome.

What makes the Opti-Scan tabulations in Florida so eye-catching is the statistical inconsistencies, the scale, and the ease with which it could have been done. This situation did not require an elaborate conspiracy by Bush, Rove, the RNC, etc. It could have been accomplished by one partisan who took a week or so to prepare. One person!

The story in Florida will depend on whether the hard drives that were used for voting can be mined. If there’s no proof, then it’s dead in the water. We’ll just have to accept that counties in Florida using E-Touch voted in patterns matching their voter registrations, but counties using Opti-Scan with 85% Democratic registration miraculously vote 85% Republican.

Perhaps they were homophobic Reagan Democrats? Who only decided to vote Republican in this election? And the fine manufacturers of Opti-Scan specifically cater ONLY to a clientele of homophobic Reagan Democrats, hence the remarkable turnaround? Yeah, that’s the ticket…

Folks:

For an example of how partisanship blinds people to the point they cannot think logically, simply look below:

Misha,

These days when something is called anti-Bush, that generally means it is the truth.

Posted by Bert M. Caradine at November 9, 2004 11:07 AM

Don- I was referring to “Buzzflash.com”. Anyway, after your post, I did some search of my own on google, cnn, msnbc ect to find credible stories from news organizations I respect to back up your story and came up dry. I know you linked to one page before, but it looked like a rather left-wing group. If some non-partisan watchdog picks this up or I can see a column which uses facts i generally trust (say newsweek), then I will listen up and pay attention. But until then, if this kind of stuff is only being seriuos asserted on Buzzflash.com, I am not too concerned. Not sayign its impossible that they are right, but the credibility of teh source is key for me, especially when I am not an expert in the field.

Misha,

Would MSNBC’s Countdown with Keith Olbermann be a credible source?

How about a partisan site that has links to the Cincinnati Enquirer, CNN, Associated Press, Cleveland Plain-Dealer and the official Florida State elections site?

Misha,
Fair enough about being cautious. The only difficulty is in expecting mainstream media to follow this kind of story. As you’re no doubt aware, most of the ‘news’ we read is funneled- foreign news is provided to AP & Reuters by the government, and repeated in the newspapers. There is so little real reporting… well, let’s not go there. Buzzflash is a partisan site which I’ve read before. Same goes with Drudge. Nothing wrong with that- when it comes to partisan sites, you just have to look before you leap.

When it comes to the Florida vote, something strange happened, and bears looking into. Like I said, it doesn’t take a grand conspiracy to make large changes in votes; one person can make large changes when those votes are tabulated by an unsecured PC or network. But until it’s proven, I’ll just keep an eye out…

Bert-

The FBI, Keith Olberman, and anyone else has until December 13th (I think) to discover any voting issues and challenge a State’s electoral college representatives. As a Bush voter, I go on record as saying that I will protest, kick scream, and otherwise cause a civil fuss if any group is found willfully tampering with an election. Period.

For Joe and Misha,

Isn’t it a bit strange that the only candidates that get elected to the Presidency, or those which we are allowed to elect, are governors? The fact that they come from the South may not be the issue. None of them have any real foreign policy experience, at least not the kind that most senators are exposed to. A senator might not need the guidance that our Presidents have had to rely on. At the very least, all of our Presidents in the last 28 years. The CFR is not a partisan agency. It serves both Republican and Democratic administrations equally, and certainly will continue to, no matter which holds office. Remember that the people, who are shaping our policy, most are appointed. And how many of these have gone on to seek an elected position?

And isn’t it also strange that both parties have passed issues, like Nafta, that would seem to have been an issue that would have partisan overtones? Like Bush 41’s failed attempt to get Nafta passed, and then Clinton’s big push to get it thru when he entered office? Nafta was an issue that would have been against the grain of the Democratic Party, at least 30 years ago. Is it any wonder that the electorate of this nation seems to be confused as to there being much difference between today’s candidates?

Give me a good reason as to why we are willing to spill our blood and empty our treasury in the hopes of creating a democracy in an area that it never existed? To begin with, it’s a totally foreign concept in that part of the world. You can really debate what the success, or lack thereof will mean to us all.

Ken

To Misha,

To the point of this being a conspiracy, I don’t really regard it as such. It is more of a long, but natural progression of the way our so-called democracy works. In that, we have arrived at circumstances like this before. The last time was during the Golden Age of the late 1800’s - early 1900’s. The wealth of the country was concentrated in the same fashion as it is now. Both then, and now, we were living in a situation that can be regarded as an oligarchy, a government of the few, for the few, and by the few. At that time, there were good people in government, who took the reins and reset the playing field, so that the majority of Americans could share in, and participate to a degree, in the course of our destiny. Today, I don’t see any hope of that happening. There isn’t anyone capable of leading such a charge. The few that I have described, while not having told us the whole truth, feel that they know and are doing what is for our best. That gives them great moral satisfaction. They realize that we are not capable of making such judgements for ourselves.

I am not able to view them as conspirators. I view them more as opportunists. That is the American way of doing things. They didn’t take anything that was guarded or considered sacred by anyone. They filled a void that no one else was concerned with.

There have been various warnings given to us by past leaders, warning of these conditions occurring in America. Dwight Eisenhower was quite vocal about the concentrated powers of the military industrial complex, and was quite afraid of where it would lead us.

Were we the people of this country ever really endowed with the powers they told us are ours? Or were we simply led to believe that. The old saying of “He who has the gold rules”, seems to apply to our democracy also. Collectively, at earlier times, I think we made have had some effect. But nowadays, these issues have become so large in scope that I’m afraid that our supposed power to elect has been altered. Hereagain, for the good of all. The moral justification for what is being done is enough to make them determined that they are doing the right thing. Take a look at GW. Can anyone tell him he’s wrong, on any level?

In any event, the ride, which they are taking us on, is not one of our choosing. It’s not open to any real debate. Lest you think that I may be trying to foster or foment a revolution, rest assured, I have given up on that idea a long time ago. It’ll never happen in this country. We are too controlled for something like that to be possible. We have willingly gone along with all of this for as long as I can remember. I feel that we will just submit further, like the Japanese have had to do. Their economy has yet to fully recover, and the majority of them have learned to settle for less than they were used to. But get ready for whatever may come our way. Because the moralistic version of the world they are creating appears to be for the benefit of mankind, nothing will get in the way. They can justify it at every turn.

In other words, what I am saying is that the great American Dream is about over for most of us. If there is a great World Dream that they have in mind, I have yet to hear of it.

Thanks again for taking the time to read my long winded dissertation.

For an example of how partisanship blinds people to the point they cannot think logically, simply look below:

Hmm… jbod, are you saying Bert is partisan because he sees anything anti-Bush as being true? Or are you using yourself as an example by implying anything anti-Bush must be false?

We have willingly gone along with all of this for as long as I can remember.

Ken, maybe we all think it’s, more or less, the right way to go. Are you really arguing that opening up new markets for our goods is a bad thing? As for the Japanese, are you arguing that they were better off before Commodore Perry steamed into Tokyo Bay?

I don’t want to argue too hard, because I’m an illogical partisan and it sounds like you’re slamming Bush. But still…

AP:

My point was eminently clear. Since Bert believes anything “anti-Bush” is already the truth, even before he hears a specific comment, there is no point discussing anything with him. His mind is already made up on the issue.

Now, I’m simply using Bert’s comment as a point, and I’m not focusing only on Bert. I’m focusing on anyone who takes such a broad position before even seeing any facts. This is how conspiracy theory thinking results, since facts begin to simply feed the conspiratorial nature of the pre decided upon conclusion.

I am a Bush supporter ( I think perhaps you knew that already). Yet I don’t support everything about him, therefore I would never ever say that anything “anti-Bush” is false. I take a look at specific incidents, look at the information surrounding them, evaluate the source providing the information, since we know that “facts” are often simply a person’s opinions, and then make a judgement for myself.

For instance, I don’t like the way the deficits have been rising, and I hold Bush partially responsible. I also hold Congress partially responsible. This is an area where I feel Bush has been making mistakes, and I look for him to rectify those mistakes in his second term. But I’m willing to call him on this issue.

Under the kind of thinking that Bert’s comment alludes to, one can make decisions BEFORE looking at any such evidence. It would be tantamount to a jury making its decision of guilt or innocence PRIOR to the trial. (Yes, your Honor, we find the defendant guilty, because we just KNOW he is a bad guy—-we don’t need no steenkeeng evidence).

Perhaps you want to defend the idea of reaching conclusion prior to the presentation of information, or perhaps you will see the foolishness of such a behavior. That choice, my friend, is up to you.

Bert-

Here is an interesting read from Amsterdam

anger battles with tolerance

Yes George,

I have already seen and heard about the unrest in Amsterdam following the murder of a popular filmmaker.

But, can you explain this obsession you have with me and Amsterdam?

Hopefully you read further that in the wake of violence against Muslims, the government quickly stepped in to quell the attacks and the rhetoric. (Remember, the same kind of violence against Muslims occurred here after 9/11, also.)

But, maybe you can explain to me the demonetization of the Islamic faith and it’s people festering all over Conservative radio these days. Where the term ‘Islamofacists’ is rapidly becoming the only description used for anyone that practice that religion.

In your blog above you linked an article about moving to Canada, and I remembered you saying a couple of months ago that you would move to Amsterdam if Bush won. I remember that previous blog because I was curious as to where you would move. I travel a good bit, especially to Europe, and I’m always thankful to get back home. In linking the Amsterdam piece I guess I was just pointing out that the grass is never really greener.

So don’t go Bert, or anyone else who is fed up with this election for that matter. Canada (or Amsterdam) doesn’t need you; we need you here. We don’t serve Bush, Bush serves us. Make him represent you as well.

George,

Sorry my reaction was a bit defensive there about my Amsterdam statement, there have been some efforts to bait me here, of late.

But honestly, if I could swing it, I’d definitely bolt Bushworld for Amsterdam - that is no longer my dilemma. And, I’m seriously looking into it.

It is not totally due to the election, but that is part of it. The rest is very personal and something I’ve thought a lot about.

I saw recently a documentary on the life of writer James Baldwin. He and singer Nina Simone are examples of those who were driven from this country, frustrated and fed up with the prejudices they faced. Being 30 years since Baldwin’s death, I have never experienced the level of racism and homophobia he did. However, it still exists, but more in subtle ways of purposely segregating us.

Bush’s re-election validates a society that puts intolerance ahead of issues like jobs and health care. Where voters think ‘moral values’ are denying gays/lesbian the right to make a lasting commitment, while they allow legal prostitution in Nevada and collect taxes from it.

Misha,
Becoming a lawyer, I would hope you above all would realize that there is a government behind the one that the people elect to hold the political offices of our country. While these positions my be required to move our country forward, the peole in some of these positions take advantage of the ignorance of the general population.

As far as BlackboxVoter.org being a liberal view point, I would direct you to the fact that she started her project on her kicthen table because she was worried that anyone could take advantage of the fact that companies like Dieblod’s CEO said he could garantee Bush Ohio two years ago.

As a lawyer, you should call that evidence because the courts sure does. The reason you can not find main media envolved in the voting issue is due to a media blackout enacted by Homeland Security.

Henry- you talk about evidence and then make incredible assertions about some super-evil media blackoutenacted by Homeland Security without the least bit of evidence. Amazing. Anyway, if you guys think partisan websites are a great place to get your theories, well here is a partisan website that destroys the lies the-guy-who-should-still-be-doing-sports is putting out there:

http://yalefreepress.blogspot.com/2004/11/keith-obermann-wheres-your-tin-foil.html (especially this one)

http://yalefreepress.blogspot.com/2004/11/more-thorough-analysis-of-tin-foil.html

Looks like all of these counties voted for Bush in 2000 as well! Now it looks like we got two partisan groups going at this- and who are we to beleive?? Well, I am guessing this is going to be a matter of “where you sit is where you stand.” If you HONESTLY believe that everything anti-bush is truth (See above) or that Homeland security is really causing a media blackout (a claim that I doubt most people on the left side of the column would even come close to believing), then you will believe anything against Bush. As for me, until I see some actual evidence from a CREDIBLE source, i will assume that Bush’s huge margin in Florida was gotten by (1) Bush’s general larger popularity in almost every state this time around; (2) his brother’s huge increase in popularity since 2000. There is no reason not believe this barring some actual EVIDENCE from a credible source.

There is a major problem in this country where portion of it thinks the other side is so evil that they are willing to believe any conspiracy theories that pop up (hey, they ARE evil, so they WOULD do this) against the other side are true. You can continue to believe that there are media blackouts against election fraud stories, that somehow Bush “stole” the election (“again” :)), while your brothers on the right can beleive that Bill Clinton sold nuclear secrets to china for campaign contributions… Luckly, most of the American people have more sense than that.

Clarifying: I was saying that most of the American people do not believe these sorts of allegations, either against Clinton’s nuclear secrets or media blackouts/election stole in florida again…

The American people have spoken…….again. So there could be no misunderstanding about who was elected, we the people of the United States, by popular vote and by obtaining the required Electoral votes, have once again chose President Bush.

In addition to electing President Bush, we have increased the number of Republican House members, thereby insuring a better majority, by which we will put forth our agenda. No longer will we be a country governed by the minority.

So you may hear us clearer, we have increased the Republican Senators so we will never again watch the disgrace of our elected officials in an impeachment process against a corrupt and immoral administration and the willful lying of a president called Clinton. We will no longer consider the definition of the word” is” . To help you understand, we threw out your minority leader, the last co-conspirator of the Clinton disgrace, Tom Daschle.

Your way of doing government business is at an end. Your arrogance is unsurpassed only by your blindness to see what is good for America

First of all Greg,

If you are serving us abroad in the Marine Corp, I thank you for your service to protect me and our country. However, that also provides me the right to strenuously disagree with you.

Seeing that you’re obviously very good at detecting lies, you should be equally good at defending and/or explaining the many lies of George W. Bush.

What I find disgraceful is the need to use fear, intolerance and homophobia to obscure the more serious issues facing this country, to win an election. There are many true Republicans who are ashamed by how this President won re-election.

Yes, you increased your stake of the Senate and Congress by employing the same tactics. Bush has further polarized this country than he did four years ago. And go ahead and denigrate all our former allies and the UN for slamming the American people for re-electing Bush, but don’t expect them to come our aid in Iraq.

Go ahead, show your arrogance - things have a way of changing very quickly.