Democrats & Liberals: Archives

Kerry conceeded minutes after I posted this. The first paragraph is now obsolete, but the rest of the post is still relevant.

Is the question “Where should the Deocratic Party go” or is it “Where should the Democrats go?” To me it’s a sobering thought that policy will be made according to “conservative Christian principles.”

Your observations about how the Republican party has reshaped itself are mirrored in the latest books I have been reading: Don’t Think of an Elephant by George Lakoff and What’s the matter With Kansas by Thomas Frank.

What can be done? Right now it seems that the county has been hijacked by fundamentalist christians. Maybe the world is right, maybe we are one of the most fundamentalist countries in the world.

The question of what to do know is one that is simple to answer. We must find a common bond, not one that has been taught to us by our so called “leaders”, but one that has stood the test of time. To long has the liberal movement been based on hate, and that is why it has been slowly eroding over the last few years. By not loving one another we the people will fail. Nothing has everlasted based on hate. Liberals battle call started with free “love”, but has now fallen because we only rally against things and not for things. Lose the hate and you will find victory.

Dumping gun control might get part of the Dem. base back.

As a first time voter it seems like my vote didn’t count. Voting is suppose to change things. Now I think it has made the situation even worse. This would be my last time voting. Why vote when you still can’t win. I feel Kerry shouldn’t concede. He needs to keep fighting unitl the end, because we stood by his side until the end. I can’t even imagine what the next 4 years would be like. Please respond if you have time

Thank you
Rhonda Brodnax

It’s too late, he’s already conceded.

Kevin:

To long has the liberal movement been based on hate, and that is why it has been slowly eroding over the last few years.

Please explain this.

Well, MTV and Vote or Die ran an awesome Kerry Campaign, but damn, I guess most of the young Kerry voters couldn’t figure out how to set their VCRs to tape the Real World and Laguna Beach. Apparently, missing those shows was too great of a sacrifice to most “enlightened young democrats” last night. Maybe one day all young citizens will have tivo’s and this type of tragedy will never happen again. XOXO,
Mike L.
U.S. Army
Special Warfare Center
Fort Bragg, NC

No matter what, we have to fight for the environment. Bush is likely to give Big Oil, Gas, and Coal carte blanche in his second term. His Supreme Court appointees will undoubtedly be property rights zealots…so there will be many assaults on intact forests and preservation of wildlife.

So get involved with the Sierra Club or other environmental organizations.

Rhonda,

I understand your feelings. I’m in Missouri, so I was on the losing side for President, Governor, Gay Marriage (in August), Senator, and some other local elections. I’m very disappointed, and I’ve thought about moving to the Northwest or Northeast to be surrounded by people who think like me and who vote like I do. However, I’m going to stay on and work to improve the Democratic party in Missouri and across the country. I think I won’t be on the winning side for many elections in the short term, but I need to keep trying, and maybe we will build to future success.

I remember thinking in 2000 “Oh, well the vote was so close, at least it will mean Bush will have to act more moderately.” I don’t think the conservatives have understood, this whole time, that the objection to George Bush has been on the issues. That George Bush has been an extremist in the White House, and he has totally ignored the concerns of the “minority” 49% of the population. Since day 1, I felt like I got run over by the extremist train. Things changed so quickly and so absolutely, across every issue, my head was spinning.

We’ve tried petitioning the last 4 years. We assembled the largest anti-war movement since Vietnam. We sent hundreds of thousands of letters to the White House objecting to irresponsible tax policies and corruption in businesses, and degredation of water and air. Our response? “Isn’t it great that we live in America where everyone has the right to their own opinion.”

I don’t mind conservatives. I agree with some of their platforms. But I am tired of feeling so isolated, when I know that fifty-five million Americans spoke with the same voice yesterday. Today 55 million of us have had our voices silenced. Completely and utterly marginalized. Bush said in 2000 that he would reach across the divide, and he couldn’t even muster up enough will to be respectful. So here we sit. And here I sit, a registered non-party independent whose moderate policies are heckled and degraded by a party that seems drunk on their own power.

Will Republicans hold their poster-boy accountable, or will they let him run rough-shod over America for another four years?

Partisan rhetoric is what Republicans believed our objections were to George Bush. So how do we get them to hold the Department of Defense accountable for the grave errors they made protecting our troops? The CIA said they gave the DoD 500 high priority sites to protect. We know that the nuclear plant, and that explosives that could trigger a nuclear device, were looted. Will the Republicans hold their own parties feet to the fire, and figure out what happened to the other 498 sites? Because I worry that the majority of them were looted. We know for a fact they rebuffed the help of the IAEA to secure the sites after the war. That’s gross incompetence. Thousands of U.S. trucks in Iraq that are protected by makeshift sand bags is gross incompetence. And what about the thousands of U.S. soldiers who are losing businesses at home? What about the men who are coming home paralyzed? Are the republicans going to take care of them this time around? Or are they going to leave them rotting like they did after the first Gulf War? Are they going to continue to block Veterans benefits in the house and the Senate?

Do they really agree that it’s sound policy to refuse to allow Americans to purchase cheaper drugs from Canada?

Do they really agree with the Republicos in the FDA who are REFUSING to allow independent cattle companies to test all their cattle for Mad Cow disease? (REFUSING TO LET THEM TEST FOR MAD COW DISEASE). Doesn’t that make you worry about the quality of our beef? Doesn’t it make you wonder if there are more cows out there infected?

Conservatives, how much money are you willing to spend stabilizing Iraq? 200 billion? 300 billion? 400 billion? How much more before it’s too much for you? Don’t put the rest of us through this stress. You’re in charge, put us out of our misery by letting us know how strongly you feel about the issue.

The reason I am so desperately sad today is not because “the conservatives” won, it’s because I know, from the last 4 years, that they are only passionate at election time. They don’t look at the issues that their party is pushing through. They don’t look at the background of their leaders. They vote over abortion and gay marriage, and then happily let their legislators get away with murder on medicare, social security, the environment, drug policies, corporate corruption, energy sector malfeasance, to name just a few.

WAKE UP CONSERVATIVES! The liberal party used to be a check upon your power. The voices of millions of Americans against wars of choice and corporate corruption used to get a response from your party. Now they have been totally silenced. No matter how we organize, Bush knows you’ll never question him.

PLEASE QUESTION HIM. These are your sons and daughters who are dying. MAKE CERTAIN THEY GET THE RESOURCES THEY NEED. They need trucks that are armored. They need the IAEA to come in and track down what happened to those looted sites. They need a strong international body who can coordinate information on terrorist financing and multi-country terrorist organizations.

You’ve got to get your party to reach out to the 70% of British people who feel like America ignores their voice. To the 85% of French people who feel like America ignores their voice.

Just because you conservatives hate us, doesn’t mean we don’t exist. It also doesn’t mean we’re wrong.

Wake up. You conservative voters are the only ones with power now. Demand answers from your leaders.

And when they ignore you, at least understand where the rest of us are coming from.

Julia

The thing is taht america is, well, we’re getting to the point where the most important thing is religion. THE most important thing is religion. And by religion, I mean Christianity. I mean, go ahead and look at the exit polls- the top thing, above terrorism, above everything, for Bush voters was moral values.

So, yeah, the big miss here was that Kerry fought a campaign on the issues, he had a strong foreign policy and a stronger domestic policy. Some voters thought Bush was stronger on foreign and voted for him, and that was expected, but those debates did wonders for turning the voters toward kerry on foreign policy and security.

The issue was that Bush was able to make it not about that. I have a theory that Bush turned more votes when, in a moment of panic during the second debate as he was backed into the pay-as-you-go corner, he threw out the term “Massachusettes Liberal”, somehow managing to tie that into how pay-as-you-go, which makes sure that the government doesn’t spend money that it doesn’t have, is a crazy liberal idea that will raise your taxes. My theory is he turned more votes saying that than Kerry did over the course of the rest of the night.

The fact is that the state of this country is a conservative one- not necessarily because of the mindset or ideals of the American people (the American people still believe in a balanced budget, for instance)- but rather the fact that conservative is a word right now, in our culture, that can be worn as a badge of pride by far-right conservatives and moderates alike, while the world ‘liberal’ is avoided by all but those people on the left.

So how about some religion? How does the party get it? My advice: wait a little while.

Right now, most atheistic folk in the nation are being divvied out among the nation’s third parties. We’re not making any special effort to disown them. They’re just going. Why? I’m not really sure, but I’ll take a stab in the dark and say that the democrat party has been too many things to too many people for far too long, and we’re starting to collapse under our own weight- especially in elections like these when we’re starting to find that our weight still isnt’ enough to beat the opponent. Are we ever going to be pro-bigotry and pro-infusing our government with religion? Oh, hell, no. But. I think you’ll find that the democratic party will begin to be composed of more of the spiritual-but-not-religious, or more often the religious-but-not-forcefully-so (a la Kerry & Edwards). I advise you to check out www.faithfulamerica.org. Basically, here’s the thing-

There’s a lot of stuff in the bible. Lots of it. I mean, like, a thousand pages. It’s been used to justify slavery, nazism, and the Salem witch trials. So I mean, if you want to make governmental/global decisions based upon it, go ahead, but try and keep the spirit of the book in mind first. For instance, do you think that Christ would rather you use the bible to justify the creation of laws that would deny the ability of one parent to see their child if the other dies, regardless of gender or the fact that the child was adopted? Or do you, for instance, believe that the Lord would be supportive of a program like Head Start, that allows children who have started with less to have a greater chance of succeeding in life? (“Inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these, my brethren, ye have done it unto Me.” Matthew 25:40) One of the above is on the conservative agenda (Banning gay/lesbian right to marriage) and is opposed by liberals, and one of the above is on the liberal agenda (Head Start) and is opposed/budget-slashed by conservatives.

The fact is that true religion, true connection with Jesus Christ is already behind the liberal agenda and United States: “With Liberty and Justice for All”. Idealism is behind us, we just have to stop being afraid to show off- yes, we need to be idealistic, and yes, we have to not be afraid to admit it. And yes, we need to show that we have more compassion in us than they do.

I think we have a chance for two years. Give iraq another 24 months and give the economy and jobs another 24 months, and you know, if things start to go super, I’ll probably start taking a look at the other side of the aisle. But I doubt it will, and we can win back the senate, so long as anyone planning on running keeps this in mind: it’s okay, you can be a little religious. Sure, America’s a diverse nation with many people, all of whom you will be representing. But when you go into an elected position, you’re also representing yourself, and if you can’t do it honestly, then you’ve got nothing, and you’ve got no place in this party.

So that’s my rant.

Julia, GREAT POST! I just hope you’re not talking to a blank wall…

Good luck,

Gene in MO

What can we do now?

The election is a joke. No one thought Kerry could surmount the massive corporate domination of our election system. Votes are still uncounted in Ohio and across the country but now we know how little the public turnout matters. A mechanical voting system as vulnerable to hackers as an elementary school computer network insured an easy win for those uneasy with the thought of free speech or right to chose.

Democracy is no longer working for the American people. America is a Christian monarchy where PR agencies spread the gospel. Thankfully, the Universe is no Christian monarchy. Jesus Christ determines no person’s karma (and the idea that he died to protect us from feeling any ill-effects of our bad deeds—well, that’s a little too good to be true, on earth at least).

What can we do now? Now that Americans have shown their sad reasoning skills and obvious ignorance? Now that we have shown the world that our government lies and we trust them? Bankrupts us and we applaud them? Strikes fear within us and we cower?
Could we fight? Start a new revolution of truth?
Seems doubtful we could get a majority to stand up and change the way we do business in this country. Just witnessed that scenario.

What about yielding? Like we did when Gore had to step down, away from the interests and vote of the people?
Yielding in 2000 led to an attack on American soil from those unafraid to launch a pebble at Goliath. Yielding will leave us unprotected.

Perhaps the only solution to what we do next, those of us who read and investigate to find our own opinion instead of believe everything we are fed, is to understand the universal laws each of us knows and trust that true justice will be served.

The American people may be sheep, slaves to reality television shows and makeovers, celebrity gossip and huge shiny cars. The American people may be children who need constant supervision over what they might think or do but the returning administration is a mature syndicate, completely aware of its actions. Hopefully, few children as us will be harmed when the universe enacts Karma on those who have willfully mislead and injured others for their own profit. Jesus may forgive George W. and Co., but he will not be paying their karma for them.

All we have now is Universal law, so called because each person alive on earth has experienced something similar. What we do now is trust (not pray or wish), just trust that those who have wronged us and others will indeed feel the same weight of suffering in their own lives.

It is all we can do. The administration just elected will be forced to face truth one day. A friend, the wife of a soldier, recently told me that she could not believe that any president would willfully allow anything terrible to happen to the American people. He husband shouted in the background that it was a nice dream and to keep dreaming it. He will be redeployed to Iraq now and await a true patriot’s death.

God and the Universe send blessing to every country and people on this earth. And let those who think they can defraud our inalienable rights come to the sure knowledge that doing so will only hurt them in the lang run.

Our greatest strength lies in understanding, forgiveness and faith. By this we shall overcome tyranny.

What happened to all the YOUNG voters? Where were they yesterday?

Everyone is disappointed in the lower-than-expected turn-outof the youth, whom you at Citizen Change so fervently tried to get involved. Did they all just enjoy seeing celebrities, wearing cool shirts, listening to cool music and then going home to status quo without bothering to put their vote to use? Sadly, it appears that way.

The Solution: continued activism and education of this highly apathetic and self-absorbed segment of the American population. As a 35-yr old married woman with 2 businesses, I’m frightened for our future and the influence of religious exploitation of the American public by the GOP, who has the Bible belt and religious fanatics so brilliantly worked up that they still vote for him no matter what, as long as he keeps bringing up his strategic “born again” status.

Still, we thank you all for all your hard work. If anything, we need you more than ever now. We need to keep going in spite of this setback;
we have too much at stake here, including our civil liberties.

- Nancy (and my husband)
Austin, TX

Julia,

>

This is the problem with the democratic party in a nutshell.. Elitism. Your statement says that people that vote for President Bush, or are registered republicans, are not intelligent because we disagree with you. When you lose the ability to disagree, you lose the ability to dialogue.

In respect to whether the administration values others views, since they don’t listen to you, I would suggest the following points.

One: They were elected for their views, not yours.

two: As a manager of people, I tell my employees that I value their input. I also tell them that if I have 20 employees, I may be given 20 different opinions on how to proceed on an issue. I can only take one course of action, if it wasn’t theirs, it doesn’t mean that I didn’t appreciate the imput.

Lastly, I want to say “the election is over”. the election is over. No one likes a whiner.

brad

I am having a hard time swallowing the fact that we are such an extremist country, a fact that has surely been made by the election results.

These people care more about their ideals than their own financial security, and well being. I am a Catholic and I understand the issues on pro life but do not agree it is my right to tell others that they should take on beliefs of others.

I just cant see how one issue like gay marriage (that kerry didnt support) and abortion (that is another persons choice) or gun laws can be the only thing that decides a vote. We need a leader who is not only morally responsible but also fiscally. How can they say that W is that man?

We will fail as a country if we do not have respect for the rest of the world, and a strong economy at home.

I have hope for a better America and I hope that this election will help put a fire under democrats, independants, or even moderate republicans like me who do not support Bush to march on. We need to find a stronger horse to run our next race and we better start working on it now.

Lets pull up from our wollowing, work harder to make our voices heard and make sure this never happens again.

Brad, I think you missed the point of Julia’s post. She was trying to make a few points-

1. If John Kerry were elected president today, I, as a democrat, the winning party, would expect him to represent 100% of the American people. Now, yes, I have different views from you, and he has different views from me, and but the point is that you’re still a constituent, and I would expect him to listen to you and not question your patriotism if he took up a “with us or against us attitude”, I wouldn’t be re-electing him. As the losing party, we expected the same from president Bush last time around and we didn’t get it. This was an entreaty to take back our right to representative government for us. It used to be you couldn’t complain if you didn’t vote. That is what you’re taught- that’s the big cliche thing (old) people say when they’re stressing the importance of voting. Now it seems that you can’t complain if you didn’t vote for the winner.

2. The other part was sort of an entreaty to ask yourself how you really feel about the way Bush is handling things.

See, the great part about representative democracy is that despite the fact that technically you can’t do anything to Bush to remove him from office, there’s this crazy thing in washington where no one will listen to you if the american people don’t like you, so even though Bush isn’t going for re-election again, as one of his constituents, you can approach him or a proxy or a congressman or something and say, “Hey, do things this way instead,” and they will. So, you know, even if you voted for Bush because of gay marriage/abortion/terrorism/whatever, if you think he needs to do something different regarding jobs or the deficit, for god sake, tell him! And if he does it wrong? For god sake, complain! If a democrat does it at this point, we’re pretty much ignored, but a big group of bitchy republicans who voted for him twice railing on about the deficit makes a big fuss. You can make a difference in this way.

So, you know, think about what you like, what you don’t like. YOu don’t have to take him all as one package just because you voted for him.

I voted yesterday for the first time in the 20 years I have been extended the priveledge to vote. I felt great for a brief moment.

I don’t know where to focus now. I feel like I’m watching somebody else’s country. As an educator teaching nearby to Falwell’s Liberty University, I can see young minds being clipped shut in every direction. Its just so much easier for them to be to be ignorant, to live life literally by a handy dandy “good book”.

But haven’t we raised our children to be servants of leisure and easy access??? Have we not made a life for them where searching for easy answers on tough questions is the best way to go? They haven’t had to expend too much effort to gain anything in their lives and they won’t start now. Their televized soundbite social world is filled with commericialized charicatures. Haven’t we taught them how to find the answer among the options presented rather than form their own?

And the rest of the country, blinded by its own guilt of having “lived” during their time in youth (Boomers) medicate themselves and their broken young dreams with the only opiate available to the right wing masses…..charismatic spirituality. It is appalling to me that most voters chose “moral issues” as the reason they voted for Bush.

MORAL ISSUES???? MORAL ISSUES???? I can barely type in my shaking anger. Is it not the HEIGHT of immorality to LIE to an entire country by taking it to war, by KIILLING its young men and women who are the MOST HONORABLE people on earth, giving their lives to the possibility that they may have to protect our safety? Is it not the MOST IMMORAL ACTION to send them to invade a another country and ask them to kill others??? HOW in the name of any goodness on the planet can anyone not say that our actions in Iraq constitue a ISSUE OF MORALITY?

I am the saddest I have been since 9-11… .but this time there isn’t an entire country’d unity to help me heal.

Excuse me, did anyone else here think Julia was whining? That was pretty derogatory of you Brad, but we’re used to condenscension (sp?) from repugs. As one who’s lived long enough to know, all that attitude WILL come back to haunt you, so, please keep it up….

Gene in MO

Nancy, as I said before, none of the young voters in America could figure out how to set their VCRs to tape The Real World and Road Rules on MTV, so the sacrifice was too great. Help your party and buy a young democrat a Tivo so our children never,ever have to choose between voting and television again. By the way, am I the only one who has noticed how BRAND F****N SPANKING NEW Kerry’s “lucky” sox cap is. I keep waiting for the tag to pop out. Maybe the young people just felt too guilty burning the gas to go to the polls, so they all decided to carpool in the same honda insight, and the battery went dead. If only they had driven an SUV…
XOXO,
Mike L.,
U.S. Army Special Warfare Center
Ft. Bragg, NC

Tray as you might, this country will not go over to liberal Democrats. The agenda is way too broad. It seems everything the left is for is is completely opposite of what the right is for. This just leads to polarization. As the Republicans did, the Democrats will have to make some concessions. The core of the party will have to be found. The core is not in extremism. It is in solving peoples problems.

Not to divide ourselves here, but as an 18-year-old, and one of the proudest 2,816,501 people in America (Texan Kerry supporters) I’m just a teensy bit offended, Mike…. could you scale it back a tad?

‘sides, you didn’t want the youth to show up anyway. From my count, they were all republican.

But then again, I’m a Texan Kerry supporter.

Some of these comments seem, to me, to be wrongly interpreting the election results.

The MAIN reason for these results is simply that John Kerry just wasn’t a very good candidate for trying to remove a standing president from office.

George W. Bush isn’t a “great” candidate, either. Many other past presidents would have easily defeated John Kerry much more handedly than Bush did in this election.

There’s many, many different reasons why people vote the way they do. Almost as many reasons as there are people. While the parties (and pundits)always spin election results as some kind of “mandate” or a reflection of the American electorate, it’s really millions of individuals that are voting.

It is NOT a situation where 51% of the public think and believe “one way” and 49% think and believe “another way”. In both parties there are hugh divisions on many different issues, and many party members not really sure what their beliefs are about many other issues. And there’s also many independents like myself who can’t agree with the major tenets of either party enough to want to claim affiliation.

So, it’s really kind of silly to think that the results of this election is an indication that 51% of the population really agree with most of the actions that George W. Bush has taken. The results only show that, given a choice between Bush and Kerry, 51% decided to stick “with the devil they know…”

Brad,

I am not saying that conservatives are stupid. Please re-read what I wrote. I believe what I said was that I wish they would hold their party accountable.

I understand why people voted for George Bush. I still hold out hope that there is a strong moderate streak on the Bush-voting side. But if there is, these voters dont’ make their will heard after election day. It’s not about voting Bush in, it’s about what happens the next 4 years.

You said “when you lose the ability to disagree, you lose the ability to dialogue.”

You are absolutely right. Are you now concluding that my disagreements are merely “whining”? You say that you value the opinions of your employees.
I take it my opinions are valueless. I take it that the issues I outlined are spurious and ridiculous. I take it that only Republicans are allowed to disagree. I am not.

Do you think that the 500 sites in Iraq that the CIA said were of importance to secure is something to verify? Where those sites secured or not? Of the two we’ve looked at, both have been looted.

Is this only the concern of valueless whiners?

I hope this isn’t indictiave of the magnamity of the winning party.

I feel more isolated than before. I don’t know what to do with myself.

I don’t know what to do.

Julia

So the shrub has won again.

Let me advance some prediction for the near future:
43 (or 44, you tell me) and his gang will create havoc in the ME by going down on his hit list. He cannot use foot soldiers, none to spare. Will use jdams and ships. Meanwhile ME will erupt so get used to gas @ $4/gallon ($6/gallon now for us) Start selling your SUVs.

I fear for us europeans. The future is bleak, compressed as we are from south and west by religious fundamentalism.

european observer

I am a young voter, 23 years old. I have been able to vote twice, and have voted twice. People say that young people don’t vote and that we didn’t vote this time. The percentage of young voters to total voters is the same this year. What does that mean, well when you consider that this year what a record voting year for all demographics that the young voter did come out in larger numbers. Heres what I and the other young voters want to know, what now? The democrats and other groups have tried to get us out, get us involved, and succeeded, even though it hasn’t made much of a difference. But we are still here, we haven’t left, and don’t really plan too. Bush has the house, he has the senate, he has a mandate as much as I hate that. Well we’re here, we’re strong, over 20 million strong, and we’re standing here waiting for direction. Point me to a march, a rally, point me to something that will actually make a difference. Don’t let us down, don’t give up when you got us worked up. Kerry conceded, so what, the war is still on, the economy is still in the garbage. This is the one blog that looks active, in fact I’ve seen many that are just plain not accepting post. So here I am, looking for a word on whats next, we don’t have an election for four years, and with Bush having a mandate, we might not have one then. The motto should have been vote now while it’s legal I’ve heard some people say. Well lets get off our collective butts and do something, the democratic party has their blog off, others have theirs off too. So I’m looking for someone here to tell me, whats next. I voted, my friends voted, we didn’t stay home and watch tv, but if nothing else happens, your gonna make us wish we did. Tell me what’s next, the news says that democrats don’t have a clue, well heres what they do have, 20 million youth who voted, who are waiting for direction. You want us to march on DC, give us a date and time, you want sitins, tell us where. Youth, gays and lesbians, minorities, we lost and election, we aren’t ready to loose our country and our freedom, can someone from the so called 60’s get off their butts and tell us exactly how to make a change. I am tired of marches that don’t work, protest that mean nothing. Does someone out there know how to do it right? And if so, can you please share that information with the youth, you don’t even have to come, we’ll do it, just tell us how. Thank you

Way back before the war I was talking to a very smart Republican friend of mine about Iraq. It was inconceivable to me that anyone with a scrap of intelligence could support the war. She just said “I believe that Bush is a good man and that he wouldn’t do anything that is bad for the country.” Republicans beleive in their candidates. I don’t think it’s surprising that most republicans are religious. I think that faith carries over into the political realm.
We need to stop calling republicans stupid, either directly or with our attitudes. Republicans are not stupid, and to them their ideas are very well founded. They are just much more founded in faith than those of a democrat. To a democrat, that means that their ideas are wrong, but the power of a faith-based argument is that if you really believe it, you cannot be persuaded. People with faith in the president see his ineptness in the war, but feel that his character will carry the day. Democrats have a hard time with the legitimacy of a faith-based argument, and so are at a total loss to counter it. The perfect example of this is the Kerry campaign. He had all the right answers, Bush did a terrible job, but people believed in Bush and not Kerry.
As democrats, we are too afraid. We shy away from anyone with courage or conviction, because they aren’t always the most articulate. We let a little media spin destroy Howard Dean’s chances at a run, choosing instead the ultimate “on paper he looks great” guy. We need more courage as a party, to say “yes I am a liberal, this is why.” If we have more courage and strength, we will gain legitimacy when arguing social issues and the character of our leader will be able to carry the day.

I’m amazed at all the folks saying how “we’re taking America back from the left-wing liberals.” What is that all about? Wasn’t there a Republican majority and a Republican president for the last four years? Did I miss something here? It sounds like righteous anger, like someone’s been repressing the right, but exactly HOW is that? By trying to keep the religious right from forcing its views on everyone else? That’s not repression, that’s FREEDOM.

I was reading through some of the above messages and found them to be a most interesting sample of the liberal population. I must say it is quite refreshing to be among like-minded people. However, a few of you expressed your frustration with the results of the election in a manner that would make one to believe you feel your vote does not count for anything. This is a very pesimistic view. Let us not forget that pesimism is a characteristic of realism, not liberalism. Yesterday was an historic occasion, in that 6 states broke records for voter turnout. Our founding fathers would have been quite impressed for even they had little faith in the intelligence of the people. And let us not forget that the electoral college provided Senator Kerry with a competitive edge. Our founding fathers not only had the interests of the majority in mind, but of that of the minority as well. If you are feeling a bit disenfranchised, I would remind you that your vote always counts. Yours as well as that of the people you mobilized to vote. Remember this, had you not seriously been committed to vote you would have been less likely to influence those around you to vote. Thus the ultimate effect would have been much graver.
I live in Kentucky, the birth-place of President Lincoln, which is overwhelmingly Republican. To be a liberal in Kentucky is just as frustrating, but my vote still counts.

Also, brad, the intellectual elitism that you believe is expressed by Julia is out-matched by the sense of self-righteous moral superiority of the right.

Awesome post, by the way, Julia.

Stephen,

I disagree with you on Julia’s post. I feel that she is still campaigning, saying her persepective is right. Her post is opinion. She then alludes that those who voted for President Bush are naive for example
>

Emphasis on “They don’t look”

I would say that I “looked” and prioritized to my comfort. I don’t appreciate her implicitly telling me that because I have a different opinion that I had not “looked”.

Gene,

>>

Hey Gene, look at the quote just above. Now that is derogatory with implicit condescension. If you want to dialogue, please leave out the name calling.

Julia,

When the judge comes in and makes a decision, then you don’t accept it, and try to undermine the decision or belittle it, then you are whining

My point is not that your concerns are warrentless, my point is that the judge has spoken. Please accept it for what it is, A majority decision. Look at your post again, is it not easy to get the perspective, as I have, that you haven’t accepted the judges decision (election)? You are asking for everyone to (keep an eye on the benefactor of that decision. (Bush), as a way of not yielding to the winner of the contest.

To maintain a dialogue means that you accept defeat. (I did when Clinton was elected and re-elected). Change is effected only by those who do not compromise their ability to dialogue.

Always remember, the only ones who appreciate whining are whiners. Also, think about the concept of shared responsibility. If the voters did not share your view, part of the responsibility rests with you, and your inability to convince them of your perspective.

brad

All very good posts, but I feel that I must disagree that Bush was elected because people agreed with his fundamentalist views. They voted for him for many reasons, and I do not believe any of them hold a majority opinion. These include:
1. moral/religious issues (abortion, gay marriage, …)
2. fear of terrorism.
3. concern over changing leadership during a war (be it war on terror or war in Iraq).
4. greed.

I do not think that anyone can say how much any one if these weighed in, but I know people who voted for him for each of these, even though they did not agree with his handling of the economy, the environment, or other issues.

I believe that, if anything, the Democrats have too long let their opponents control the battles by responding to the mud-slinging. As soon as both sides are throwing around personal attacks, the focus is off of the issues, and, frankly, that is exactly what Bush wanted.

Also, I believe that the Kerry campaign made a mistake in concentrating so much in the “battleground” states. It made the campaign into a reaction to the President’s campaign, and sacrificed possible gains in other states which coudl have bene in play (like Missouri). Bush had the advantage of free national access as President, but too many states were ignored, and if the pressure was put on there, it could have forced Bush to react to Kerry, take his focus off the battleground states, and coudl have had positive impacts on close senate and congressional races around the country.

In my view, the Democratic strength is our diversity, which is also our weakness in some ways if we do not pay enough attention to it. Perhaps we should start looking for people who are not “career” politicians to run for office, because I also hear too many people say that they cannot see the difference between the candidates, because they are all politicians, and they basically do not trust what any of them say.

Okay, as I said, Im a young voter, I voted along with many other young people. I’m in alabama, and voted with a lot of young people in alabama, who knew we didn’t have a chance to win the state for Kerry. I knew it going in to the booth that my vote wouldn’t count, just like it didn’t four years ago. We went out, we are still here posting to these blogs, waiting for someone to say, heres the plan, waiting for the people we got up and voted for to say okay Im not leading the country but I will be able to lead and help those who voted for me. We don’t expect them to say or do that, but we have hope. The same percentage of us voted, but people forget that when the voting population goes up 20% that means that it changes the actual numbers. If 17% the vote was young this year, and there was a 30% increase in the overall vote, in order for youth to keep that 17% of the vote, 30% more youth must vote and did. No the youth didn’t change who won, no, we didn’t all vote for Kerry, I did but we all didn’t. No demographic all voted for Kerry. We got up and voted, knowing that it would end up this way, and also knowing that people would call us apathetic like usual. Well we care, we voted, we didn’t let you down, if anything you let us down. One thing youth didn’t do, we didn’t win this for Bush, the majority of youth did vote for Kerry, hmm, that means the older people let us down, but don’t worry, we’re used to that, we’re used to you saying our test scores are too low meanwhile your letting the roof of our school leak down on us. You want a change, you want to see youth in action, how about a little support, how about congradulating us on the success we had, and how bout appologizing for your failure to win this for Kerry and our future. Actually we don’t want that, what we’d like is a word on what’s next, we’re here, we’re strong, we want to make a difference, but we’re watching you all give up. How about you set an example, go protest, help gays get their rights, help stop this war, and stop complaining, we’ll be there to protest, but you need to be too.

Where were all you liberals when your hero, bill clinton sent our troops into Bosnia and Kosovo? He sent the most capable, powerful Army in the world into harms way to be shot at so that they could build urinals and ladel out soup to refugees. Where were the liberals and MoveOn.org screaming “Milosevic didn’t attack us! Milosevic didn’t bomb the U.S.!” How are liberals all of a sudden so altruistic and meals on wheels about our military’s role when a democrat is in office, but so isolationist and so cautious to use it when a republican is in power? There’s got to be at least one intrepid liberal with the balls to answer this whopper.

Truth be known that I am an independent for the most part, having at one time been a democrat, but jumped ship after being discouraged by the direction the party seemed to be following after the Clinton administration. With that in mind when Gore ran in 2000, needless to say, I was not on board.

Disgusted with the turn of events of the 2000 elections, the events that occured in our nation with Bush at the helm of it during the core of his reign and the current state of things in the nation and world as a whole, I decided to put my differences with the democratic party aside for the greater good and endorse Kerry.

Hell, I even spent a good majority of my summer working on what was essentially the largest travelling anti-bush campaign in the nation, a little tour known as The Warped Tour. I travelled from city to city, across this great nation of ours to chants of “F BUSH!,” “NO MORE in ‘04” and a myriad of other slogans led by some of the most influential people in the eyes of most young people in my age demographic, rock stars, more to the core, the punk rock community to a certain extent. The electricity, the energy and the sentiment that rose from the crowds of tens of thousands in venues across the U.S. (though I do realize maybe only 25% were of voting age) and the voices on stage that led those cries spurred from four years of dredgery and a future of uncertainty on numerous levels led me to believe that may be, just may be, my faith in the fight and my choice to place my faith in what once I lost would not be in vain…But I guess once again, I was duped.

That being said, in the past three elections I have pushed and prodded and been the voice of rally among my peers and family to stand up, make their voices known, to fight for change, protest and not take the crap we are being force fed as a nation, lying down…but I think now that has changed, apathy has finally consumed what was left of me.

In the end, it seems as though what I intitally thought, or had come to decide after my inital departure from the democratic party, is actually true….That the end result is basically the same, four more years of being basically screwed and basted in the lies and corpo-rhetoric that essentially rules the planet by the hand of the almighty dollar. The only difference with Kerry in office would have been guessing the level or rather the severity of that screwing and the size of the lies I’d be receiving…now at least I know where I stand and I don’t have to guess about whether or not I am being screwed and/or lied to, at least now I know it for a fact…

I voted for Bush and obviously I am glad the person I voted for won and would feel bad if he didnt. However I do think its sad that both Republicans and Democrats bad mouth each other and think people, whose opinoins different from themeselves, are stupid. I respect people that voted for Kerry. I understand that people will have different values and morals etc… Its divided which makes it more difficult but I wish people would be more respectful in thier opinoins and when complaining. Just because your choice didnt win doesnt mean things cant change and everyone is terrible and the worlds going to end. Hopefully things will be better this time around, and I feel there is nothing wrong with hope.

Greg,

So you are saying that the only time your vote counts is when you win. >>>>>

So you are saying that your vote only counts when it is cast for the winner. Why is that?

Consider this: President Reagan won by landslides. He got everything he wanted even when the dems owned congress.. Congress knew he had a mandate. To obstruct was political suicide. You should view your vote not from a win loss perspective, but from a tug of war perspective. Your vote added energy to your side of the rope.

Consider this. Only in politics and hand grenades, does close count. If you understand and believe in that, you will never, ever, think that your vote does not count.

Bnorth

Ben,

What can be done? Right now it seems that the county has been hijacked by fundamentalist christians. Maybe the world is right, maybe we are one of the most fundamentalist countries in the world.

I choose to believe that the Democratic Party has been hijacked by the Communist Party. Perhaps looking inward rather that blaming others would go far to get the Democratic Party back on track.

I say this in loving memory of John F. Kennedy. Who may be looking down in bewilderment at the Democratic Party.

Alright! Stephen, Gene, thank you for defending me. That’s exactly what I was trying to get across. And I can’t tell you how much I needed to hear from you. Thank you. Thank you.

Brad, if I simplified the arguments for voting for Bush, then I’m sorry. Of course, I know many people who voted for Bush who were holding their noses, and I know many people who voted for him because they liked the “Leave no Child behind” act, among a host of other reasons.

Was George Bush elected for “his views” in their entirety? I agree with Stephen and Gene. Everyone is different. I’d be suprised if the 51% of people that voted for Bush agreed with every single policy of his. I think (I hope!) most Republicans would agree that you can’t pigeonhole everyone down their party line. I think they’d also agree that their party has made mistakes. (Everyone makes mistakes, I hope we can all admit that).

4 years ago, I thought that whoever we elected, no matter what his views, would be responsive to the views of millions of Americans. I also thought he would be respectful of their feelings. I hope Mr. Bush will have a change of heart and be polite this time around.

Democrats can be wrong. Republicans can be wrong. Usually it’s the minority party that prevents the excesses of the ruling party. (As the Republicans curbed the policies of Clinton).

This didn’t happen in the last 4 years.

So I’m begging you, Brad. Stand up. I know you don’t agree with every single one of Bush’s policies. I have a feeling that you want to make sure we solve the problems of the shortage of armored trucks in Iraq. Let’s work on that.

Please. Lobby your senator and your congressmen to allow the IAEA back into Iraq so they can start figuring out what happened to those munition sites. We need their help.

Also. If you could try really hard not to call me a whiner, I’d appreciate it.

All of us need to be responsible for raising the level of dialogue. We are all Americans. I know that there is common ground between us. Please, you Republicans, don’t rub our faces in your victory. Give us reasons to believe that you’ll be respectful and open-minded. Make us believe that you’ll reach across the table. Make us believe that you’ll help us keep the guy you elected honest. Call him on it when he spins the truth.

And don’t take him at face value. Make sure he’s rhetoric is matched by his record.

That goes for all of us. Kctim, and Misha have been right on a lot of things. Everyone has a duty to get out the truth. To demand responsibility and honesty from our leaders, whatever their party. We are all flawed. We all make mistakes.

I have to believe that the majority of Americans are not extremists. I can only hope that the tragic way this election was waged, on all sides, the lies, the spins, the rhetoric, the pandering, all of it, galvanizes the notoriously busy (and anti-political) moderate American into action. We’re all here. We’re all human beings. Let’s work together.

Let’s lift up politicians like Gene Taylor of Mississippi, and Hastert, and John McCain. Let’s lift up Barak Obama. These are the people that truly represent us. Don’t you think?

Let’s show them that we’re behind them so that they have the power to resist the Tom DeLays and the Karl Roves. Let the voices of the moderate majority in the republican party be heard! Let Pat Buchanan speak! Let Shultz speak! Let Scowcroft speak! Let Colin Powell speak!

There’s hope. But only if we stay vigilant. Only if we give moderates the power to stand up to extremists.

Let’s let this election move America to the middle.

Julia

Reading the posts from the Democrats that came on here whining reaffirm to me why I quit being a Democrat and became Republican.

I became Republican because the left became, well… nuts. Modern day Democrats don’t care what the facts are and vote based on hate. I don’t want to be a part of that.

All of you need to grow up and quit whining. You threw everything you had at W and he still won.

As much as I dislike my current senator zell miller he has one me over. The democratic party can not win national elections until they decided that they will take into account that they cannot tell people to buy into their liberal agenda. It’s time for conservative democrats with a semi- progressive agenda to lead the party. Democrats don’t need Chris Dodd to lead them in the senate the need conservative democrats who believe in protecting the environment, upping the minimum wage, advancing health care, strong on defense, and pro-life. As long as the liberals have the power in our party or at least the vocal power we will continue to loose elections. You cannot rely on the black vote or the young vote, or try to be competitive in a handful of states to win a national election. The first move they need to make is let moderates be the voice and the liberals behind the scene. Shut up Hillary, teddy, Dodd, dean, Biden and listen to democrats who are actually winning elections in conservative states.

I’m an independent Liberal that voted for Kerry and I think the Democratic Party will not win a political majority again until it realizes that it needs to do three things.

1. It needs to clearly identify what its principles are and stand up for them. Democrats have to stop being ashamed of being liberals. They need to wear the label with pride and quit letting the GOP use it like a swear word.

Clinton did some good things while he was in office but even he compromised many times on the traditional liberal agenda. The modern Republican Party and its majority did not happen over night. It started with Ronald Reagan. No matter what you think of him you have to admit he made Conservatives proud to stand up for their beliefs again. Bush has taken it even further by bringing in a new group of voters, evangelical Christians/social conservatives, in large numbers. I honestly think Democrats will never be able to appeal to many of these voters. However, half of the country does not vote and when you look at their demographics the majority of them (young voters, the poor, minorities) are people who can be persuaded to vote Democratic if you can ignite their passions and develop a message that addresses their concerns.

2. The Democratic party needs to find a way to communicate those principles in a way that will that bring in large numbers of new voters into their party and keep them there.

3. I think it needs to find a messenger. The Democratic Party needs a Liberal version of Ronald Reagan. This election proves that you win elections by moving your base and sticking to your party’s principles. The Democrats have become so afraid of the Liberal label they don’t stand for anything any more. It makes it easy for their Republican opponents to define them.
The Democrats need a person to take the lead next presidential election that will stand up for something. I think Reagan had a long lasting effect on conservatism, not because so many average voters share his conservatism but because they believed in him and respected the way he stood up for his convictions. The democrats must find someone who will inspire people beyond the next elections but for decades to come.

Julia,

There you go belittling my choice again.

“Make us believe that you’ll reach across the table. Make us believe that you’ll help us keep the guy you elected honest. Call him on it when he spins the truth.”

Reread this please. Keeping him honest, spinning the truth. Now re-read it again and pretend that John Kerry was elected and I wrote this. Can you see my point? The election is over. Accept that a majority of the voters disagree with you.

You also say :” Give us reasons to believe that you’ll be respectful and open-minded. Make us believe that you’ll reach across the table. Make us believe that you’ll help us keep the guy you elected honest.”

A reason to believe that you’ll be respectful?? Julia, look in the mirror. It is you who is not being respectful of the majority of the voters choice. You are still casting aspirsions. I believe, unlike you, that he already is honest. Doesn’t mean I am right, doesn’t mean I am wrong. Just becaus your believe that he hasn’t been honest, doesn’t mean that he isn’t. But you talk about reaching across the table. Would you like to reach across a table to me if I said you were dishonest etc. I sincerely doubt it.

Then you go to list politicians that we should be supporting. Again, you are insulting my ability to make my decisions. I for one admire Karl. Just because the left says he is bad for winning many campaigns against them doesn’t mean he is bad. It means that he is an excellent strategist.

Julia, you so desire to be heard, but you are your own worst enemy.

>

Define truth!!!

Personally, I have less respect for arguments that contain the words, always, never, truth, right, wrong and fair. These are words that do not belong in a debate. They can not be substantiated.

Good day.

brad

Ha ha ha ha ha! Oh Brad. You’re such a sweety.

If Kerry had won and you said “give us reasons that you’ll be respectful and open-minded”,

I would have said: “You are absolutely right. There were things said and done in this campaign that were outright wrong. And anyone who thinks Kerry said the truth 100% of the time can take a look at factcheck.org and see that he didn’t. Now that President Kerry is in power, we will hold his feet to the fire and make sure he’s responsible.”

However, with Kerry, there would be a majority of Republicans in the Senate and the House, and I think they’d do a good job of keeping him in check, so they wouldn’t really need the “people” to back them up.

If Kerry had won, I would have gotten on and written “I know how awful this must be for Republicans. I know that 49% of the people who voted today are passionate in their beliefs, and that they want to make sure their voices are heard. We have not forgotten you. We have heard you. We know how much you value the lives of the unborn. Let’s work together to find a way to lower teenage pregnancy, let’s find a way to lower all unplanned pregnancies.

You want an America that will be decisive in foreign policy. We hear you. We won’t let John Kerry previracate when it comes to our national security. We won’t let him get caught up in red tape with international bodies. We’ll stand with you on natiional security when our country’s safety is at stake.”

Belittling your choice? Oh, that’s rich.

When Kerry is wrong, I expect Republicans to call him on it. And they’ve been doing it non-stop on this blog, and now that the election is over, I’d like to thank them. Because, as much as I complained, I learned new things about policy because of their agressive questioning, and I am more informed, and a better person because of their debate.

So thank you guys (kctim, and Misha, and others like you) for bringing up topics of substance.

Now I’m asking, for the rest of you republicans that are out there, to be big-hearted people. Look into the worries that we have brought up. Look into the unsecured munition dumps in Iraq. Look into the blocking of the IAEA into Iraq. Yes, factcheck nailed John Kerry on lies. Factcheck also nailed George Bush and Dick Cheney on a lot of lies.

You’re the winner. You’re the one who gets to make the choice whether or not this will be a divided country, or a united one. You can choose to bludgeon us with your power, or to reach across the divide. And, as we’ve seen in the last 4 years, it’s also up to you to make certain the individuals you elected stay honorable and honest.

Gene, Stephen, thanks again. You aren’t alone.

There are good Republicans out there. Look at Olympia Snowe, and Dennis Hastert.

Julia

This seems like such a sad day for the hopeful, democratic youth of America. We desperately want our voice to be heard, we want to “Rock the Vote,” but to what avail?
Kerry lost… Sad, but even sadder is the fact that our nation relies on an electoral college, that often mutes the voice of the minority per state. The media encourages our ignorance, I don’t need someone to “represent me,” in the form of an electoral college member; I want to represent me. But what’s the use? Our youth show up in the highest reported numbers since 1992, our nation reports the highest ammount of voters casting a ballot since 1968. Our nation is divided. Those who did speak out, were heard, and we know you’re out there, but what difference did it make….. I’m still the minority in my state (not speaking racially), and the majority is still ruling the they want despite what I think or how I feel.

I voted for Bush and it is a great day in America. Call me stupid, but we won!!!! I just put my faith in my man and pray that he gets the job done. By our simple logic, since you’re not with us you must be against us, which is bad for you.

Since we are running everything, our agenda for the next 4 years:

Enslave everyone man, woman and child to corporate America. Everyone will be required to work at Wall Mart for a minimum of 2 years once they reach 18.

Dump large quantities of oil into the gulf for the hell of it.

Attack some 3rd-world country that we can really defeat easy so we can gin up support for the 2008 election. Within 2 to 3 years we should able convince the public about some WMD in say - France.

Institute a reverse progressive tax. Those at the top will pay 0% and we’ll tax the hell out of the poor.

Pass a new gun law, which will allow all gun owners to shoot anybody who looks ‘suspicious’.

Allow the police to arrest anybody who breaks a 10 commandment.

Have every child read the bible for 1 hour at all public schools.

We’ve got a lot a work to do, and not a lot of time. So, hang on for the ride.

——————————————————————

Get real - The problem with the dems. platform - is that it is based on self. You cry that you are for the poor, the environment and the minorities, but you are really for policies that make you feel good about yourself. To feel good yourself, you want everyone to like us. To solve a problem you want to see every point of view so to not offend anyone, but offer no real solutions.

Evil does exist in this world and we saw that on 9/11, and the evil is not George Bush.

I need to vent here a little. Fifty-five million americans for one reason or another agreed that Bush is not the leader we wanted for America. Regardless of what people think, we are incredibly disenfranchized and I (ALONG WITH OTHERS LIKE GREGORY) HAVE NO INTENTION OF TAKING THIS SITTING DOWN!
I hate to be a “troll” here, but I fail to see how the outcome of this election bodes well in any way for progressive ideologies. Just by reading the bile that is poured onto this blog by conservative trollers makes me fully comprehend the severity of what we progressive thinkers are now facing.

Guys, we are in a lot of trouble here!

I don’t say this to be a pessimist. I am seriously trying to be a realist when I say this. The values that we non-religious Americans hold dear (the ability to choose how we live our lives) is not only in turmoil, its GONE!

Let me lay it out for people who really don’t want to face the music:
1. GW won by A LOT. Thats no fluke! Us liberals were WRONG about the amount of credit we gave Americans to look past petty religion issues (which is how we liberals see things like abortion issues and gay marrige). The american people voted for Bush for a variety of different reasons, but by casting their vote for him they have made a clear statement that what he hold as his ideological truths is perfectly OK with them.
Just look at the 11 states (I think its 11) that have just passed laws essentially legalizing gay bashing (and that is my liberal spin on it). These weren’t closely contested, they won in land slides!!

2. The senate and congress did not move one inch toward the left. In fact it continued the same march toward the right that it did in 2002. Liberals now control NOTHING. We are absolutely powerless in this country. People on the left are already trying to implore the President and his constituents to look past petty differences. THAT WONT HAPPEN. The petty differences (like “moral issues”) are what divide us. Bush isn’t going to budge on his ideological views. PLEASE, Americans just gave him a mandate. He controls everything, WHY ON EARTH WOULD HE HAVE ANY REASON TO REACH OUT TO THE LEFT??? He doesn’t need to, Americans just told him he didn’t have to by giving the man a clear and decisive win.

3. I hate to say it, but this election proved that Americans didn’t just dislike Kerry, the completely rejected our philosophies. If Kerry had lost, but the democrats had gained some ground in congress, it would have been clear that the vote was simply choosing Bush over Kerry. Sorry, thats not the case. AMERICANS ARE NOT THE PEOPLE US LIBERALS THOUGHT THEY WERE!

Look at the last four years we have given this administration, do you guys honestly think, given the way they got there in the first place and what they did with it, that under the current circumstances they plan on doing ANYTHING different.

Actually, I’m wrong. They will do something different, but in the wrong direction (for us liberals).

I don’t WANT to be a zealot. But I can’t take this “except loss with grace” thing sitting down. We did that in 2000. I’m scared, people I identify with are scared. Its now a fight for our ways of life. They have mandates and the abilities to END everything we have fought so hard for in the blink of an eye. There is nothing to stop Bush from appointing anyone to the supreme court he wants, and given his previous appointments to lower courts, we can fully expect these people to be in-line with conservative values. That will give the supreme court anywhere from a 7-2 to a 9-0 advantage in the supreme court. Scare yet? Think Roe v. Wade has a birds chance in hell of surviving the next four years? I sure as hell don’t.

So I say this to fellow young people like Gregory:
SCREW taking this gracefully! The hippies of the 60s have had their time. They have made their fortunes and are perfectly happy crawling into a little whole and living the rest of their lives in seclusion. I’ve talked with many of them and this is EXACTLY their plan. Now is OUR time. We don’t need their guidance, just like they didn’t need their parent’s guidance. I don’t plan on taking the religious conservative march toward facism lying down, and I know I’m not alone. This is the final straw for normally pacifist observers like me. The blue states of the Northeast and West SHOULD NOT put up with the hateful segregating CRAP coming from the religious RED. WE ARE DONE WITH YOU! YOU DO NOT REPRESENT US AND YOU WILL NOT TELL US WHAT TO DO OR IGNORE US ANYMORE!

Now you bellicose conservatives, before you put me on some “watch list” for my comments, rest easy. I’m not inhumane, my plans are not anarchist in nature. I am not insinuating a revolution or civil war. But I want to point these out as VERY SERIOUS and possible outcomes of the absolute incision that exists in our nation. I cannot get over my differences with people who vote FOR discrimination (because that is what your anti gay-marrige bills have done). I cannot accept people who want to take away my right to abort a child that I do not want. I do NOT believe life begins at conception, and you cannot and WILL NOT take that belief away from me. I will not bend to your archaic gun toating ways. While guns are not bad, idiots who fail to realize the danger of guns and take precautions to keep them out of the wrong hands ARE.

I cannot and will not “bend” to these issues! They guide MY MORAL life. I am not so zeleous that I will allow a Zell Miller to be my parties candidate. You democrats who want to yeild to this, go ahead, but be prepaired to lose MY support, along with every person I know who believes socially as I do. We will not get told that fundamentally good people like the Clinton’s and Dean who champion our causes are bad. F@#$ YOU! These are our crusaders!

I wanted a “less of two evils” candidate in the white house very badly, but we didn’t get one! I will not give up my beliefs any further to accomplish this goal. We are a divided nation. These issue must be resolved for us to get over this division. I don’t know how they will be resolved, but rest assured we LIBERALS will not lose our livelihoods as a consequence of doing so.

I hope to god that the republicans come to their senses and move back toward the center. The reason I say that is because it is no longer up to me. We liberals can reach out to the right as much as we want, but you guys hold the power and we are powerless. The ball is in your court, not ours. You hold all the marbles. This country goes where YOUR leaders take it.

Thank you to everyone who has read my prattle. This is not the last time I will talk; I hope it is not the last time I am heard.

to all those who voted for Bush, not only have you let half your nation down, you have let the rest of the world down.

just goes to show that democarcy doesn’t work, elections are a facade and that real power for change are in the people hands.

Organise with friends and memebers of your community,reclaim the streets, grow a communal vege patch, don’t let government dimish the spirit that created democracy or change before.

Democarcy came about with people organising and rebeling for change that was the beauty of it all….. just beacue we have in place the systems doesn’t mean that those things should disapear, democaracy can only be held accountable if the people are active.

don’t be so reliant on the govt. No matter whos in place there is allways something that sucks.

I’m from australia and i tottaly understand what you guys are going through, John howard lost again, a pro monarchist, conservative right wing idiot whose head is always up bush’s ass.

And Rob i think that your a coward for using 9/11 as campaign issue here, that was 3/4 years ago, and its not fair to capitalise of misfourtunes, and as far as 9/11 goes, terrorism has always existed to a certain extent scince the beginging of the modern era (probably before that), preemptive strikes in this modern day is unprecedented and unexcusable. To bring about change you have to introduce new factors that undermine those factors that mke for the actions of peopple. Why does terrorism exist? a war wont stop terrorism its a changing in attitut by all sides of the world.

What we have at the moment is one fundamentalist christian group fighting against fundamentalist muslims…….. what kind of change for the better is that going to do? We might aswell pack our bags and go back to the crusades.

i forgot…… there is more to the world than the next four years….. we should be so short sighted

Where were all you liberals when your hero, bill clinton sent our troops into Bosnia and Kosovo? He sent the most capable, powerful Army in the world into harms way to be shot at so that they could build urinals and ladel out soup to refugees. Where were the liberals and MoveOn.org screaming “Milosevic didn’t attack us! Milosevic didn’t bomb the U.S.!” How are liberals all of a sudden so altruistic and meals on wheels about our military’s role when a democrat is in office, but so isolationist and so cautious to use it when a republican is in power? There’s got to be at least one intrepid liberal with the balls to answer this whopper.

Mike L,
To answer your “whopper” Clinton did not tell us that there was a grave threat to American Security in Kosovo. He did not say that Kosovo had weapons of mass destruction and invoke mushroom clouds to work on people’s fears to justify his invasion. He did not alienate our allies by spitting in the face of everyone who dared challenge his (wrong) assumptions. Kosovo was a relatively minor conflict, very much unlike the mostly unilateral overthrow, rebuilding and securing of a hostile nation. In Kosovo, there was genocide going on and that was the reason that was given to go to war. It wasn’t sold on false and selective premises, it wasn’t based on faulty intelligence, it wasn’t badly planned, there was a defined goal, and it was in almost every way unlike Iraq.
The “whopper” is more of a junior McDonalds hamburger, hold the pickles.

Sofia - I have no reason to campaign. 9/11 was an act of evil - period.

How many innocent people did Gandhi or Martin Luther King murder to make a point?

Kind regards,

Rob

hey pooleB- don’t you see that you just made my point for me? of course clinton didn’t say that they possessed wmd’s or posed a grave threat to our security, which made it ALL THE MORE UNNECESSARY to go in. And are we to believe that the bosnian genocide was ugly enough to justify war, but the saddam’s campaign of genocide and terror wasn’t? you know, if you don’t understand, there’s just no use explaining it to you. by the way, i’d like extra ketchup on my whopper. after all, someone’s got to pay for john’s yacht.

Mike L,
Two differences
1. Bush purposefully misled the American people about the reason for going to war. The war in Iraq was not a war for humanitarian reasons, it was a war to keep America safe. Only after it became obvious that there was no threat in Iraq and there were no terrorist ties did the whole “humanitarian” rationale come up. Considering that the Republicans sent Donald Rumsfeld to tell Saddam that despite his use of gas on the Kurds, we still supported him, I don’t think the Republicans are all that concerned about preventing dictators from doing bad things to their own people. Clinton was straight with the American people from the outset about going to war. Who knows, if Bush would have said we were going in for purely humanitarian reasons maybe I would have supported him.
2. The cost. Kosovo has had minimal military casualties, minimal civilian casualties, and strengthened our standing in the world. I think that that is a good trade for ending genocide. Iraq, however has alienated the world, cost 230 billion dollars and counting (new figures including the 70 billion Bush is now asking congress for), cost the lives of over 1000 troops plus countless wounded, 10,000-100,000 innocent Iraqis dead, and has made us less safe, due to increased terrorist recruitment and a hostile international environment.
Big difference-Bush lied to fight his private war, Clinton told the truth to fight a minor conflict that resulted in minor damage. The two conflicts are so dissimilar as to be incomparable.
On a more personal note, your various posts today have been pretty offensive. I’d apreciate a more civil discourse, unless you can’t make your points without resorting to racism or vulgarity.

Young Democratic’s let’s walk up!!!

WE have to set a agenda join together put it on the front steps of the American people and show them.

I’m young, black and I live in Georgia. Where the Republicians took over the state in 4 years.

What happened here and across the nation?

It’s Simple. Ask ourselves how could George Bush have more morals than John Kerry are they both not Christians?

The Republicians made it seem that way…

Secondly, rejoice they now how full control when Bush blows it 08’ plus will start to turn back to us.

The South and Middle America is filled with Conserative Democrats who feel that they have been isolated by western and Northeastern Democrats.

Has the party forgotten about us?

Let’s start now towards 06’ and 08’. We need to come together now.

What are the 5 most important things we fill we can deliver to America if we have a chance to govern??

Right Now Let’s start discussing these things.

The WAR scared a lot of people towards Bush, 2 years and 4 years from now that won’t matter.

So what are the five jewels we should present to America?

pooleB- to say that Kosovo was a minor conflict with minor damage only serves to reveal your twisted belief that their is some acceptable level of american deaths and casualties as long as the conflict is “minor”. Just because we did not lose as many men in kosovo as we have Iraq we can’t, with the luxury of hindsight, say, “oh well, it was justified, cause in the end we didn’t lose as many guys in my war as your war.” whether you lose one man or a thousand men in a war, no life should be given in vain. was the civilian damage that wes clark’s brilliant campaign in kosovo incurred on the balkans mitigated by the fact that we didn’t kill “as many” of their people when we dropped a bomb on the chinese embassy because our maps were 10 years old when we went in? or because we didn’t kill as many Kosovars as Iraqis when we bombed a convoy of tractors? Did Somalia have to pass a lesser litmus test for war because we didn’t send “as many” of our special operators in to die without proper armor or air support? yes, we did lose men in the balkans, but sadly some of them were in the special forces where their deaths can not always be revealed on network news for a number of reasons. We just have a fundamental difference of opinion on the value of human life, apparently. Even though you probably won’t believe this, I actually do respect your opinion. I’ll just leave it at this, because it will obviously take a much more intelligent man than myself to convince you of the flaws in your logic.
Mike L.
U.S. Army
Ft. Bragg, NC

Brad, been gone to work so am late responding to your post.

“Hey Gene, look at the quote just above. Now that is derogatory with implicit condescension. If you want to dialogue, please leave out the name calling.”

I guess calling someone a whiner is not name calling. Jeez, get real.

Judges are not supposed to be determining the election, the people are. So what you call whining is not actually whining but someone’s right to question the illegal use of judicial authority. Your using the term whiner is a tactic to undermine someone’s position through condenscension, a well known republican tactic.

Mike L,

To answer your question. Where was I during the Kosovo issue? I was in Mississippi, taking care of people with disabilities and fighting for their rights (that includes vets). Where was I in the gulf war? I was in Mississippi, helping my mother take care of the disabled children born to Veterans with Gulf War Syndrome.

Myself, and my family, have fought for veterans rights and benefits under every party. We get a sympathetic ear from democrats. From Republicans, they ask us to wait in line behind multi-billion weapons projects.

As a soldier, I’d like to ask you to reach across the divide and help us build a database of disabled vets and their needs so that they can recieve care when they come home. So many families are struggling with disabilities for which they are ill equipped. 24 hour care is tough on anyone.

Reach out. Help a fellow veteran in need. The DAV (Disabled American Veterans) organization desperately needs your help in order to prevent the cuts the President has planned for 2005.

Join Chet Edwards and Chris Smith in making a difference:
http://www.dav.org/voters/annual_legislative_report.html

Julia

Mike L.,
I think you actually made poolb’s point. There should always be a justification for military intervention, and there should always be a justification for war (although war is never really just but it is a necesary evil in extremely limited circumstances) and I know our views may differ but I see humanitarian intervention as more jusitfied than quasi preemptive war. (quasi because there was no threat to begin with, so there was nothing to “preempt”). Secondly, limited military intervention such as that of Kosovo was different from a full scale war and I know you are aware of that difference.

We like to paint Saddam as a ruthless dictator who gassed his own people (actually he invaded Kuwait to try to stem the flow of oil that was being mined by Kuwaitis via a pipeline built by Kuwait), and I concede that Saddam certainly was not a saint but how many other ruthless dictators the world over do we implicitly and explicitly support (or do nothing about)? He may have ruled with an iron fist but the atrocities commited under his regime pale in comparison to the number of deaths stemming from the economic sanctions imposed against Iraq. The Iraqi people were bad off because of the U.S imposed sanctions not just because of Saddam. But I am not even going down that route because the presumed reason that we into Iraq was not humanitarian rather it was because of the imminent threat posed by Saddam’s WMDs and the humanitarian rationale only entered into the picture when the facts came out that the WMD program had been dismantled since the early 1990’s. Of course this ideological shift came after the decision to to go to war had already been made so it merely represents a hindsight bias. We will not even go into the possible underlying political/economic rationales for the war because we can take the original reason (WMDs) at face value and immediately see how it was false.

The rationale for entering into Bosnia was completely different. I think it is disgusting that one would even compare Somalia and Bosnia to the war on Iraq. With Bosnia we were aiding in the prevention and mitigation of Hitlerian style persecution and senseless killing of ethnic minorities in the Balkans. The last time I checked Saddam was bumping off individual political dissenters not whole ethnic groups. There is no comparison between atrocities committed by Saddam and the summary massacre of innocent civilians that Slobodan Milosevic and his good buddys Radovan Karadzic Ratko Mladic are responsible for. Karadzic and Mladic directly managed, encouraged and ordered the wholesale rape and murder of innocent Muslims and Croats during the Balkan war. The analogy to Somalia is too absurd to merit discussion and you already know this so I will not waste energy on that topic.

You expect me to believe that the number of human or civilian casualties is irrelevant in the context of war and its justification. As I said before there is a difference between war and limited military intervention. The argument aboutthe cost of one life=cost of ten thousand is also absurd. If we extend that concept to its logical conlusion then we should have stayed in South Vietnam rather than cut our losses. The idea being that since we have already lost one life then what is a few thousand more? One must make practical decisions in the context of military conflict, and my one last question is this. If the life of a soldier is so valuable, then why risk it by sending him or her to fight in a war (Iraq) that was neither just (how could such a war ever be just?), planned out, or reasoned by genuine motives? It seems as though we are valuing soldiers lives less, by sending them into battle based on fictitious reasons. Do you want fries with that?

Chas,

Mike L.,
I think you actually made poolb’s point. There should always be a justification for military intervention, and there should always be a justification for war (although war is never really just but it is a necesary evil in extremely limited circumstances) and I know our views may differ but I see humanitarian intervention as more jusitfied than quasi preemptive war.

Actually Chas, Mike L’s point in my opinion is valid. The reason being, is that no President should ever send our military into harm’s way for any other reason than to protect the American people.

Now we can argue whether President Bush lied. In your opinion I am convinced he did. No need to discuss that here. But to send any American troop into battle without approval from Congress or under the guise of humanitarianism is simply not justified as noted in the constitution which is to provide for the common defense.

Sorry if that displeases you but it is a waste of our military and our resources.

Gene,

>>>

the term “judges was a metaphor for elections. The rest is an analagy for a definition of a whiner.

I think it was pretty clear.

As far as your allegations of “well know republican tactics” all I can ask is, how is calling a whiner condescension? you might want to go look up the word in a dictionary. The correct word to use is “insult”.

Gene you have thrown derogatory names my way twice now. (repugs, condescending). And Julia thanks you after preaching about “reaching across the table” (I assumed in good will but maybe not).

I would like to say two final things to you Gene.

1)You are an angry hippocrit. Get over it
2)George Bush won the election. You lost. get over it.

Good day.

brad

Maw,

>>>>

The constitution says no such thing!!! You might want to try reading it.

As far as approval from congress, are you infering that Bush did not have approval from congress??? Well, you are wrong again. What do you think the whole, “I voted for it before I vote against it” fiasco was all about.

bnorth

Maw,

>>>

This is the statement from you that I was referring too. I didn’t get it in the last post.

brad

Brad,

I am in favor of the war. I believe it was executed legally and President Bush did not lie. If there is any ambiguity in my statement, let me clear it up this way.

I was against the action in Kosovo because it was for humanitarian reason and not for our defense.

I was for the Iraq war because it was for the defense of our country.

We may all differ on whether or not President Bush lied. I believe he did not and he acted in the defense of our country. I simply did not want to debate that here.

But truth be told, he went to war in Iraq in defense of our country.

Hope this clears it up for you. If not, please feel free to let me know.

Thanks and happy posting.

Maw,

My apologies for my confusion.

Brad

Chas- Let’s go one more round. Since you refuted my Somalia comparison SO articulately, I think I’ll dwell on this a little longer. The questions I posed early in my blog were rhetorical questions, meant to imply that the left can only attempt to legitimize the wars in somalia and bosnia by stating, again in retrospect, we didn’t lose that many lives, so a comparison to Iraq is like apples and oranges. My point is that if ever a nation decides to send troops to war, it must do so with the commitment that we can accept nothing less than absolute military victory. while this is a basic tenet of war that goes the whole way back to sun tzu and the art of war that nearly all logical and patriotic people can agree on, it still seems to be a foreign concept to many on the left. Do you remember how right and justified we were to go into Somalia. apparently we were only right and justified until the war exacted some “magic number” of casualties or some substantial. We were so right and justified until boy clinton saw that body being dragged through the street, and all of a sudden, now that we’ve lost a few guys, we’re not as justified, or it’s just not worth it. So he pulled out (perhaps an unfortunate choice of words) and shit on the sacrifices of the likes of gary gordon and randall shughart who died in the name of that objective. And if you think it wasn’t worth finishing, might I remind you that our withdrawal from Somalia was THE VERY ACT THAT EMBOLDENED BIN LADEN TO CONCEIVE THE 9/11 ATTACKS! (I hate to take the wind out of your sails, but he said so himself on tape, something democrats conveniently love to forget). Do you even begin to realize the ramifications that that action had on our security?!. All americans know that if we don’t learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it, but the left seems to be a little selective on the history it wants to remember. Now I know what you’re going to say in response to this, so I’ll go ahead and demolish your argument before you even have time to formulate it. You’ll say- “what about Nixon and Vietnam? hasn’t Bush learned from the quagmire that that war became?” glad you asked. I’ll answer that with a question of my own- does anybody remember who started Vietnam? ding, time’s up. JFK DID! YOUR HERO JFK DID! AND WHO ESCALATED IT? ding, time’s up. LBJ DID! MR. GREAT SOCIETY DID! by the time Nixon inherited this quagmire, started as a feeble liberal muscle flexing to make up for the bay of pigs debacle, and LBJ exacerbated it, the war had become unwinnable. and there is only one time, my friends, when a war becomes literally unwinnable. and that is when we lose the war on the homefront. by the time Nixon was in office, the your predecessors and mentors, the Hanoi Jane Fondas, and Hanoi John Kerrys and VVAWs and Winter Soldier movements had a stranglehold on the heart and the morale of the nation. And just as some on the left wish to see in this war, we lost vietnam because our own people defeated us- from within. I leave you with this: A NATION CAN SURVIVE ITS FOOLS, AND EVEN THE AMBITIOUS. BUT IT CANNOT SURVIVE TREASON FROM WITHIN. AN ENEMY AT THE GATES IS MORE FORMIDABLE, FOR HE IS KNOWN AND CARRIES HIS BANNER OPENLY. BUT THE TRAITOR MOVES AMONGST THOSE WITHIN THE GATE FREELY, HIS SLY WHISPERS RUSTLING THROUGH THE ALLEYS, HEARD IN THE VERY HALLS OF GOVERNMENT ITSELF. FOR THE TRAITOR APPEARS NOT A TRAITOR; HE SPEAKS IN ACCENTS FAMILIAR TO HIS VICTIMS, AND HE WEARS THEIR FACE AND THEIR ARGUMENTS, HE APPEALS TO THE BASENESS THAT LIES DEEP IN THE HEARTS OF ALL MEN. HE ROTS THE SOUL OF A NATION, HE WORKS SECRETLY AND UNKNOWN IN THE NIGHT TO UNDERMINE THE PILLARS OF THE CITY, HE INFECTS THE BODY POLITIC SO THAT IT CAN NO LONGER RESIST. A MURDERER IS LESS TO FEAR.
-MARCUS AURELIUS CICERO
roman statesman, 42 B.C.
If ever we lose this war, it will be because we lose it from within. by the way, is it too late to super size that? oh yeah, keep the change kiddo- liberals should always have a quarter on hand in case they need to make a decision about national security.
Mike L.
U.S. Army
Ft. Bragg, NC

Brad, you and others like you are the reason this great country is no longer the beacon and model for the rest of the world. I once called you a repug which you fit quite well, you continue to name call using terms like whiner and now hypocrite. “Live by the sword die by the sword”. If you can’t take it, don’t dish it out. I for one am in favor of no longer responding to your posts as it has been already witnessed you won’t acknowledge a reasonable and factual argument againt your viewpoint. All in favor of ignoring Brad, say aye.

Good luck, all… Bush is already shoving it down our throats. At least we can take solace in that the dimwits (name calling…so what, get over it) who voted for him will suffer too, a quite just punishment…

Gene,
in backwoods, podunk, buckle on the bible-belt MO

Folks, after just rereading my post, I had “lightbulb” moment. You know, our cause has been thwarted for the moment, but that doesn’t mean we have to be “nicey, nicey” to these ignorant self-absorbed assholes who are intellectually and morally repugnant. We CAN and SHOULD call them for what they are. Let them call it whining. When they say “get over it” say “HELL NO!” We can “forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do” only so long. Just like when confronted about his drug abuse, Bush said “none of your business”. People care less about your drug use and more about how you stand up to accusations. If Clinton had told the repugs “none of your business” instead of lieing, we wouldn’t be where we are today. Stand up for being a liberal and shout the bastards down, for that’s all they really understand! And don’t take the bait from REPUGS like Brad, their minds are made up. No amount of reason will sway them, they are a waste of your valuable time and effort. Either ignore them or stand together and shout them down! And folks, that’s the truly scary thing about many of the people of this nation; we are surrounded by a lot of brainwashed, mental cripples. Don’t be afraid to say it!

Gene

Nick
Thanks for such a funny post. This board needed alittle comedy to lighten the gloom and doom mood.
I just have a simple question that puzzles me.
You said that things may have to eventually come to a civil war in order to force the liberal views onto everyone.
“If the liberal agenda is to take guns away from us dumb people, how do you plan on this civil war playing out?”
Us dumb, gun toting rednecks are the ones who support the 2nd Amendment and are also the ones with the guns.

“How are you going to get us (rednecks) to support you when you don’t support our rights?”

“How can you use guns to overthrow this so-called “right wing facist” govt. when in fact, you want the govt. to disarm you?”

Doesn’t seem possible to me. Good luck in your quest though. Your going to need it.

LOL

Gene,

Thank you for your tirade, by the way, you substantiated my earlier post ever so eloquently.

“but that doesn’t mean we have to be “nicey, nicey” to these ignorant self-absorbed assholes who are intellectually and morally repugnant. “

And you are whining about whether George Bush, the election mandated president will reach across and embrace you and your imput. This tirade is angry, vengeful and probably shows why no one will listen to you. Kind of ludicrous to expect anyone, including me, to listen, let alone dialogue.

I would say that you exemply what I think of the democratic party, those who are and represent a philosophy that everyone else is to blame for everything that doesn’t go your way. Like I said before, no body likes whiners, but whiners. You can take that as name calling if you want, but I would argue that it is a very important life lesson. You might want to consider that “getting angry” doesn’t always get you somewhere! Failure should be a time to contemplate. Those that don’t look at failure as a learning tool rather than a chance to “be angry” will always amout to what they are. A whiner.

So have a good day Gene, and may you enjoy your successes at what you apparently do best.

brad

I will be brief because I have no time to help those who are obviously unwilling to help themsleves. First of all let us agree to disagree because in my opinion the war on Iraq was unjusitified and really had nothing to do with our security as the whole “preemptive” action reason is a proven pretext for “other” reasons. If the war was for our security then how did it make us more secure? One thing we can hopefully agree upon is that it has polarized secular and non-secular middle east terrorist groups against the US occupation and against US hegemony in general. (just look at the cooperation between the secular insurgents and al-qaeda) Secondly I believe that the military can and should be used to defend our country but there is a fundamental difference between war of expansion (Iraq) which I disagree with, and a war for our defense (if we were under attack or imminent threat of attack)
To Mike L. I love the way that you assume JFK is my personal hero and I agree with everything he did just because he was a democrat and adopted a few progressive reforms before he was assasinated. I disagree with his decision to go war, and while Nixon inherited the quagmire he did not really do a great job of managing it. As to the analogy between Somalia\ Kosovo and Iraq the US’s role was fundamentally different in the Kosovo\Somalia conflict than in the Iraq war where the US has assumed the position of occupier and agressor.
You may say that the democrats are “whining” about Kerry’s defeat but at least someone is not afraid to open their mouth and decry the results that have occurred in this election. After another four years of joblessness, war and debt you may be whining for change as well.

Brad,

Funny, most reds I know were quite ANGRY during Clinton Admin… and showed it with “tirades”… think Rush Limbaugh among others. (I wish someone would have told Rush to stop whining.)

Actually I AM NOT whining about anything and no matter how many times you repeat it, it does not make it so. You can say it all you want, but this time it won’t keep us down! If complaining about what I feel is an injustice, then the Constitution writing forefathers of this once great country were all a bunch of “whiners”. I don’t “blame” anyone, but I have trouble with those who won’t take responsibilty.

I AM quite concerned that the Republican think tanks formed during and after the Reagan years who specifically targeted segments of our population with combinations of words and labels were successful in an attempt to brainwash those targets. You are living proof. Yes, I am angry because I was brought up to play fair and now I learn that it doesn’t apply to republicans. Don’t mistake what I say for whining, for I am not decrying the election results but the fact that so many people are blind to the inadequacies of this administration. But, I am here to tell you, we’re not only mad, we’ll get even.

Its time for the dems to use the same tactics the repubs have… even if we think its wrong. Thank you for the wish of success, you can count on it.

And if you call what you have been doing in this column “dialogue”, let’s take a vote. Regarding your rewriting of history, JFK merely CONTINUED what Eisenhower had set in motion — reluctantly — he was on record as to being against intervention in VN but was killed before he could make it policy (hmmm). LBJ AND Nixon both made a debacle of it. And you make a good point about VN being a debacle, why didn’t the Bush admin learn from our mistake in VN. Seems like we’re repeating history here again. Oh never mind, your programming won’t let you understand any other viewpoint, you can’t help it. I’m sorry I took it out on you.

Good luck, but I hope you will feel our pain.

Gene

Brad,

Funny, most reds I know were quite ANGRY during Clinton Admin… and showed it with “tirades”… think Rush Limbaugh among others. (I wish someone would have told Rush to stop whining.)

Actually I AM NOT whining about anything and no matter how many times you repeat it, it does not make it so. You can say it all you want, but this time it won’t keep us down! If complaining about what I feel is an injustice, then the Constitution writing forefathers of this once great country were all a bunch of “whiners”. I don’t “blame” anyone, but I have trouble with those who won’t take responsibilty.

I AM quite concerned that the Republican think tanks formed during and after the Reagan years who specifically targeted segments of our population with combinations of words and labels were successful in an attempt to brainwash those targets. You are living proof. Yes, I am angry because I was brought up to play fair and now I learn that it doesn’t apply to republicans. Don’t mistake what I say for whining, for I am not decrying the election results but the fact that so many people are blind to the inadequacies of this administration. But, I am here to tell you, we’re not only mad, we’ll get even.

Its time for the dems to use the same tactics the repubs have… even if we think its wrong. Thank you for the wish of success, you can count on it.

And if you call what you have been doing in this column “dialogue”, let’s take a vote. Regarding your rewriting of history, JFK merely CONTINUED what Eisenhower had set in motion — reluctantly — he was on record as to being against intervention in VN but was killed before he could make it policy (hmmm). LBJ AND Nixon both made a debacle of it. And you make a good point about VN being a debacle, why didn’t the Bush admin learn from our mistake in VN. Seems like we’re repeating history here again. Oh never mind, your programming won’t let you understan