Democrats & Liberals: Archives

Folks:

Pretty much any posting that contains the phrase “Nazification of American Politics” is bound to be an ignorant rant. I’m not sure what FreedomFocus.org is, but were I on the left side of the aisle, I’d most assuredly be distancing myself from this kind of idiocy quickly.

Virtually every point made in the posting is a venting of pent up impotent anger, with little if anything in the way of fact. I’ll not bother to respond to any of the actual comments made, as they are simply not worthy of response.

Perhaps I see this from a more conservative viewpoint, so let me ask. Are there any on the left who would actually agree with the comments posted above? I recognize that those on the left do not want Bush as President, but that belief alone does not constitute agreement with the post above. Just curious.

Joe- a large portion’s of the left’s hate toward Bush is so far gone that rationality is out the window. They are like religious fanatics at this point (not the entire left mind you, but a sizable portion).

Just look at the number of people who flocked out of the Fahrenheit 9/11 as if they had just been delivered to The Word. I think it is hilarious that a group of people who always taunt Bush for seeing the world in black/white can have such a shallow view of his presidency (I did not vote for Bush, the first time I didn’t vote Republican, but even I can see there are nuances (!!!) to his four years- http://www.watchblog.com/thirdparty/archives/001498.html)

Same people who scream bloody murder when any of Kerry’s past is questioned.

I stopped reading the post when I saw the phrase “Nazification.” I think this country is headed in a dangerous direction in terms of civil rights but I also know that associating a person with Hitler or a party with Nazism is the quickest way to divest oneself of any credibility.

Whoa Bruce,

Hey buddy, you need to take a deep breath and calm down a bit before you burst a vein or something.

I take it from your diatribe above that you are not a Bush fan and that is your right. However, if you want to be seriously considered a part of the debate you need to take it down a notch or two of 20 or 30.

With rants like this you are viewed as comical to some and the next Ted Kazenski by others.

You may very well have some interesting things to say that would add to the substance of the debate but no one is going to pay any attention to you.

Just a little friendly advice from the conservative side of the debate.

I stopped reading when I got to the part about the US being closer to a civil war than it has been at any time in more than 140 years. That is rather excessive.

The State (South Carolina) reluctantly endorsed GW yesterday. Their logic is pretty sound.

I agree with everything in Bruce’s post but the use of the term Nazi. As far as that goes, I agree with those saying it is too extreme a term to be used.
However, it is important to remember that Hitler didn’t start with consentration camps, he started with simply blaming everything that was going wrong in Germany on the Jews.
I have seen rightwing people in this blog continue to blame all of Bush’s failures, problems or mistakes on Clinton, the Liberals, and Liberal Media, or on the UN, or the French and Germans, or on 9/11. And it just so happens that those of us on the left think that this sh*t just doesn’t flush.

As far as this country goes, the right has held all the power for the past four years: the Presidency, the Senate, the Congress, and the Supreme Court - and they’ve done a horrendous job managing things. They’ve created no net jobs, they’ve allowed outsourcing to escalate, they’ve allowed more and more children fall into poverty, they’ve refused to get us better deals on drugs, they’ve allowed more and more people to lose their health insurance, and they’ve run up deficit spending to INSANE LEVELS.

With Diplomatic relations around the World they’ve done nothing but ignore their duty, or lie and embarass us. As it stands now, our allies have abandoned us, which has left us fighting practically alone and which can only endanger the country more and leave us more open to terrorism.

With Al Qaida, Bin Laden, and the Taliban they’ve not gotten the job done. Iraq was a mistake of collosal proportions and they cannot admit it. They’ve neglected our troops who are dying and becoming maimed and disabled because they didn’t know the first thing about planning for war.

This Republican Administration, Senate and Congress has failed We the People.
It is time for a change of the guard.

You gotta be kidding me, Adrienne! For the last four years, most every decision by the supreme court has come out for the left. Justice O’Connor is basically now a liberal justice from abortion to affirmative action to campaign finance reform to civil liberties (not that i disagree with the liberal bent of the court in some areas- like the civil liberties/presidential power cases recently handed down). To say the supreme court is controlled by the conservatives is to live in a dreamworld, in my view. or at least live in a world before O’Connor underwent her miraculous conversion….

Also, I think the list of things that the government is supposed to “fix” for us is a great measure of the left’s view. Got less jobs-government should get it for you- even if it means xenophobic meaures to stop “outsourcing.” Got no health care- well that must be the government’s job to get it for you. Unfortunately, rather than making this point, Bush has basically become a leftist and agreed that the government should provide health care, provide jobs ect.

That is the real reason to oppose Bush- he has sold out to the left’s view of the world, with the government being the solution to all of our problems. The amazing thing, is that Kerry and Co. just attack him for not doing this enough! (he only increased federal funding for education by 48%! His huge medicare bill wasnt HUGE enough ect. ect.) We need to get back to a place where we had a true party of small government and personal responsibility. Neither Kerry or Bush stand for this simple tradition which is so central to making this country so great…

Adrienne
If you sincerly believe this, except for the nazi word, could you please explain to me how a socialist govt. under kerry would be any better?
Neither supports the US Constitution and both are slowly eroding away our rights until the US becomes a true democracy instead of a Constitutional Republic.
This is one MAJOR thing that has me confused with the posters on here and I’m just curious.

Misha:
“To say the supreme court is controlled by the conservatives is to live in a dreamworld, in my view. or at least live in a world before O’Connor underwent her miraculous conversion….”

If Ms. O’Connor was such a leftwinger, they why was the 2000 recount in Florida stopped before the People could finish? The fact that the Supreme Court has told us that their actions at that time will not become standard procedure for deciding close elections implies (at least to me) that they knew that the ruling they made was completely Unconstitutional.

And as we all are aware, we will be getting new Justices-for-life after this election - and that if Bush wins we’re going to see the combination, rather than the separation, of church and state be the new law of our land.
No doubt that will make the Moral Majority happy - abortion will be accordingly outlawed and the procedure will go back to being a third-world style affair where women and young girls who are still children themselves can return to paying a creepy guy to poke the rough edge of a germ-laden coat hanger into their uterus. Amen.

“Also, I think the list of things that the government is supposed to “fix” for us is a great measure of the left’s view.”

Yes Misha, and we know what the great measure of what the govt. is supposed to do in the Libertarian view, too. Why, it’s an historical journey! Yee Haw! The Wild, Wild, West where its every man for himself! Or Cherrio, Pip Pip, and all that sort of Rot! Perhaps to Merry Old England where the Lords own everything and blithely rule over the Commoners!

Adrienne —

What Misha was saying is that O’Connor has been more liberal since the 2000 election decision. I can’t speak for that, not having read all of the Supreme Court decisions justice-by-justice, but it does recall an interesting rumor: I heard that O’Connor was one of the justices who was planning to retire during Bush’s term, but she changed her mind after seeing what kind of president Bush turned out to be. Her conscience (according to this rumor) would not allow her to leave the bench and allow Bush to appoint someone in her place, so she’s sticking it out in hopes someone else will be elected in 2004.

Like I said, completely rumor. But if Misha’s assertion that she’s become more liberal is true it would seem to support the rumor. Interesting times we live in.

kctim:
“If you sincerly believe this, except for the nazi word, could you please explain to me how a socialist govt. under kerry would be any better?”

I’ve never insulted your intelligence, don’t insult mine, okay?

“Neither supports the US Constitution and both are slowly eroding away our rights until the US becomes a true democracy instead of a Constitutional Republic.”

Bush has abridged five amendments in the Bill of Rights with the Patriot Act(s), he will shred the preamble to the Constitution with his Marriage Amendment if he can get it to pass.
Kerry himself said during the first debate that he wants to hire an Atty General who understands what the Constitution means. I believe him. Why don’t you?
All I’ve seen you come up with when you discuss Kerry and the Constitution is your perceived threat to the second amendment. But Kerry likes guns. He’s a hunter. Is it about the assault weapons ban? Wouldn’t you like to know that it wouldn’t be easy for Al Qaida operatives living in this country to get assault weapons? I know I’d feel a whole lot better if the ban was reinstated.

“This is one MAJOR thing that has me confused with the posters on here and I’m just curious.”

As you should know by now, I am not one to go along with violations to the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. I’m a huge fan of the brilliance of both of those documents. And I feel that America will become an entirely different place if either of them are discarded, or if in making amendments we don’t have careful and thoughtful deliberation.

Whoops! I didn’t mean the first debate above, I meant with his acceptance speech at the Dem. Convention.

Alejo speaking of Justice O’ Connor:
“But if Misha’s assertion that she’s become more liberal is true it would seem to support the rumor.”

Some of her rulings have been quite moderate recently, I must admit. But she is still a conservative who was hired by Reagan, and she was certainly one of the justices that gave the 2000 election to Bush.

“Interesting times we live in.”

Indeed. Lets hope tomorrow will see a change that will make things even more interesting!

None of you comparing the U.S. to the Nazis believe what you are writing. If you did, you wouldn’t dare write it. How many people do you think wrote letters of protest to Herr Hitler? Of those people, how many do you think subsequently got to visit an outdoor camp for the last couple of weeks of their lives?

Please visit places like Auschwitz and talk to some of the survivors about it before they are all gone. It is very unpleasant, but I believe you will be cured of your childishness about this subject. Until then, stop insulting the memory of all those killed by real oppression.

Adrienne,

Let me correct some of your incorrect statements. I can not blame you for thinking these things are true, as this is what you are being told by Kerry and the mainstream media.

1) They have created no net jobs.

Actually there have been nearly 6 million new jobs since December 1999 the month before Bush took office. Please look at the two documents below from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. From there I will let you do the simple math.

(1999 Average Employment Data)

http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat1.pdf

(Current Year Data)

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.cpseea3.txt

Think about this logically. The current unemployment rate is 5.4% while the average rate for 1999 was 4.2%. The only way that we could have had a net job loss like Kerry claims is for the population to have grown less than 1% in the past 4 years.

2) They’ve allowed outsourcing to increase.

This is an arguably correct but misleading statement. Insourcing by US Subsidiaries more than offsets the claimed 2 million jobs lost to outsourcing.

Please review the insourcing data on the link below.

http://www.ofii.org/insourcing/

3) Theyve allowed more and more children to fall into poverty.

This is a moving target and placing a certain poverty level is difficult at best. According to the Census Bureau and the various methods used to calculate the poverty rates the numbers have increased, decreased or remained flat depending on which model is used to calculate the numbers.

I have a link below to the Census Bureau. You see the mountain of data there.

http://www.census.gov/

4) Theyve refused to get us better deals on drugs.

I assume by this that you are talking about the importation of drugs from foreign countries. If that is the case, there are two major reasons for the lower prices of drugs elsewhere in the world.

A) Less stringent quality / purity regulations. The FDA regulations add greatly to the cost of our drugs while insuring we have a safe drug supply.

B) Litigation costs.

The recent Flu Vacine shortage demonstrate both points. One that the FDA rejected a tainted supply based on production problems in the UK. The reason we rely on the UK is that litigation has made production of vacines in the US unprofitable.

The Congressional Budget Office document below will help explain.

http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=5406&sequence=0

5) Theyve run up deficit spending to insane levels.

For one thing, the administration can not spend money. The control of the purse strings belongs to the congress.

the tax cuts that the president pushed for has spurred the economy. The downturn that started late in the Clinton Administration when Industrial Production Peaked in September of 1999 has bottomed out and started the climb back. Much of this due to the stimulation from the tax cuts.

This could be seen as well following the “Reagan Tax Cuts” where actual tax receipts to the IRS increased. This was true even with the lower rates. The reason being that the more money consumer have the more they spend. This increases sales / corporate income tax revenues. It also causes more product to be manufactured increasing tax receipts and leads to more workers hired increasing income tax receipts.

With the current cuts there has been a small reduction in reciepts a total of about 8% over the past two years. This is an investment on the future. The link is below.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/03db07co.xls

Numbers for tax receipts during the first two quarters this year are up 2% over the same period last year.

As for the Afghanistan and Iraq issues. What is successful or not is a subjective matter. What I think is successful may not be for you. Please look at the Third Party and Independent - Featured Article - “The Case for Invading Iraq”. It is a lengthy but very worthwile read with multiple citations for supporting documents.

Insult your intelligence? Liberalism and socialism have distinct connections. Large govt. control ring a bell?

The patriot acts are killing the Bill of Rights. kerry supports the patriot acts.
The 2nd Amendment is part of the Bill of Rights. kerry is far from supporting the 2nd Amendment, Bush is also. Why can’t YOU see that. To think that that bill had any effect on al qaida getting machine guns just shows how much you refuse to read anything other than anti-Bush or anti-Republican taliking points.
kerry supports the no-knock rule, enacted under clinton, total violation of the 4th Amendment. He also supports excessive taxes to pay for vote buying promises.
You want to say you support the Bill of Rights then at least support all of them instead of just the ones that promote your views.

Being such a huge fan of our brilliant documents and still being able to find the words “seperation of church and state” somewhere in there, then should we rewrite the Declaration to get rid of this sentence?
“And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”
I mean, to actually think that not all christians are evil and that our country was founded on christian values seems to be the wrong train, right?

Bush? kerry? It doesn’t really matter. “America will become an entirely different place” no matter who is elected.

Kirk,

I’m no fool for your rightwing statistical delusions. In fact, I think every single one of the arguments you made were sheer and utter nonsense.
Nice try.

Adrienne,

I am saddened that you will vote based on what you are told by a candidate rather than looking into the actual data on issues. This is exactly the kind of apathetic voter that John Kerry is appealing to.

Notice that he never trumpets his accomplishments in the Senate, only attacks the current President. Never lays out exactly how he would do things differently only that it would be “better”.

Kirk:
“I am saddened that you will vote based on what you are told by a candidate rather than looking into the actual data on issues. This is exactly the kind of apathetic voter that John Kerry is appealing to.”

Kirk, math and statistics aren’t my strong suit. I’m a left-brainer as well as being a leftwinger. Art and Languages are the things I’m good at. Everyday I read left and rightward leaning newspapers, magazines and periodicals - lots of them. From American and foreign sources. My views on the topics you attempted to pick apart have been informed by consenus over careful reading rather than by statistics. I am far from apathetic or uninformed about either candidate.

“Notice that he never trumpets his accomplishments in the Senate, only attacks the current President. Never lays out exactly how he would do things differently only that it would be “better”.”

I think he can be proud of his Senate record - and proud of the fact that he has been consistent with it.
As far as the failures, problems and mistakes of this administration goes, I think there is so much to criticize that I really don’t see how he could be asked not to attack them.
And he does lay out his plans for making things better - if you are curious you should go to his website and look at these plans for yourself.

“Liberalism and socialism have distinct connections. Large govt. control ring a bell?”

But they are not the same things by any stretch of the imagination. If you think they are, you need to do some reading.

“The patriot acts are killing the Bill of Rights. kerry supports the patriot acts.”

But not the provisions in the Patriot Acts which abridge several of our rights.

“The 2nd Amendment is part of the Bill of Rights. kerry is far from supporting the 2nd Amendment, Bush is also. Why can’t YOU see that.”

I love to, Tim. Why don’t you direct me to some links from independent sources to back up these assertions?

“To think that that bill had any effect on al qaida getting machine guns just shows how much you refuse to read anything other than anti-Bush or anti-Republican taliking points.”

Again, don’t insult me. I realize that anyone can get an assault weapon if they want to start randomly mowing people down, but why should the ban have been lifted in order to make it easier than ever?

“kerry supports the no-knock rule, enacted under clinton, total violation of the 4th Amendment. He also supports excessive taxes to pay for vote buying promises.”

Links, please. Independent sources, if possible.

“You want to say you support the Bill of Rights then at least support all of them instead of just the ones that promote your views.”

If that were true then I’d want to alter the second amendment. However, I try my best to reckon with the reasoning of the founders wanting us to be able to overthrow the govt. if it became too corupt. I also try to understand the love affair Americans seem to have with their firearms - admittedly without much success.

“Being such a huge fan of our brilliant documents and still being able to find the words “seperation of church and state” somewhere in there, then should we rewrite the Declaration to get rid of this sentence?”

I just explained to you several days ago that the term “wall of separation between church and state” wasn’t even coined by Jefferson until _after_ the Constitution was written. But the _meaning_ of those words are implied in every document leading up to the Constitution and in the document itself which states that the president does not have to have a religion. It is also implied by the very first line of the first amendment which states that “government shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion”. If they had wanted to put the word God into either the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, they could have, and would have. But they _didn’t_ want to, because they didn’t want America to suffer from the same kinds of problems that Europe had suffered due to the unrest created by the changing of state religions.

“And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”

You switch to the Declaration when I was talking about the Constitution, but okay, I’ll bite.
Divine has two meanings. One relates to God, the other means supremely good or superb. Providence is the power sustaining and guiding human destiny.
Supremely good power guiding our destiny as a nation.
If they had meant God they would have said God, but they _didn’t_.
And if you want to counter with “endowed by the Creator” - again I will say that if they had wanted to say God, they would have, but _didn’t_. They were trying as hard as they possibly could to be vague about religion - because they felt it could really throw a wrench in the works. Which it _does_.

I mean, to actually think that not all christians are evil and that our country was founded on christian values seems to be the wrong train, right?

I don’t think Christians are evil and would never say such a thing. I am not a bigot. The country was founded by many men, some of whom were devoutly Christian, and some whom were not religious at all - but all of them wanted us to keep our government secular in order to keep it strong, and free of religious squabbling.

“Bush? kerry? It doesn’t really matter. “America will become an entirely different place” no matter who is elected.”

Of course it matters. Don’t be obtuse.

Adrienne,

The numbers don’t lie, the people who spin those numbers often do.

I admit I did not read in completion all responses to the initial opinion by Bruce R. Senator - nor am I particularly well versed
in political nuance. I consider references to Nazi”ism” to be extreme despite my distaste for “W.” I think he is dirty. I think he has no idea how dirty he is as he has acted as a brainwashed puppet of proponents of the PNAC(www.projectforanewamericancentury.org) Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush, Paul Wolfowitz, Gary Bauer, et al. “W” was a very carefully chosen nomination as the Republican candidate back in 2000 to move the PNAC’s ideals forward. Go to the site (though I probably fouled up the link) and see for yourself. The potential agenda of my government terrifies me far more than any fundamental Islamist agenda. My God, Not America!!!

To compare with the Nazi takeover of rational thought we have to recall how insidious it was. How a class of people was singled out and how the blame spread. How the restrictions gradually spread. The way civil liberties were reduced and compliance was enforced throught the fear of the possibility of being next. Who’s next? Right now the gays are on the skewer. A convenient class. No one “likes a queer”, right??????
It is worth a thought, though…I cannot resolve myself to go as far as thinking “W” has Nazi leanings. I can’t stand the guy as a politician and certainly not as my president. I’d rather endure daily dentist or gynecologist visits than endure each day of having him as my beloved country’s leader!
Do I think Kerry is the solution? I am not sure. But he gets my vote through hopeful default in knowing “W” certainly has failed his four year opportunity to prove himself. FOUR YEARS to prove himself.

He doesn’t lead me - he frustrates me.
He doesn’t reassure me - he scares me.
He is not in touch with me-he alientates me.
He does not represent me - he is my antithesis.
He shares my religious affiliation (Methodist) - and yet I do not
recognize him as my spiritual relative.

At best he has been sucked in by the no-win angst of the Middle East.
At worst he has been complicit. Damn him if it ever comes out he was complicit…

Either way he has demonstrated himself as impotent and weak in the guise of being strong and steadfast. Stubborness and rhetoric only work on those who WANT to believe because it is easier to perpetuate the myth than stand up and dare to question the authority we democratically gave. And can take away…lest it be TAKEN away…

I can’t wait to vote…to have my tiny “say” in the matter and move on regardless of the outcome.

Respectfully,
Amy

“

Interesting comments. However, just for the record, I am so left-wing liberal that I have come around 270 degrees to the left and am tucked right under your conservative armpit. In other words, I am a conservative but will not be misled by LIES, DECEIT, and DISHONOR no matter what party it comes from. I know “what ‘is’, is”.

Let me make this clear. In late 1986 - early 1987, I wrote the outline President Reagan’s staff used to fend off growing outcries for an impeachment inquiry regarding Iran-Contra.

I had conducted research on Iran in 1975, concluding that we may lose the nation if they “choked on westernization” (more on that some other time). However, I understood ‘how’ Reagan and his administration could get sucked into this type of debacle. Still, the media was moving too quick, without doing sound research. I challenged the media to back off, do their research first, then let the research, the facts speak for themselves.

In time Ronald Reagan stood tall, admitted his grave error to the nation and apologized. Ronald Reagan was a resounding man, and set a standard that to this date has not been repeated in American politics. Neither GWB nor DC can hold a candle to the memory of Ronald Reagan.

Some 1 1/2 years later in 1988 I wrote the analysis that helped defeat the final attempt at a Contra funding bill before Congress. This message was delivered by Bill Press, for whom I had volunteered time in his campaign headquarters. I was up front, explaining that I was looking at changing party affiliation from Republican, partly due to being disgusted with the far right-wing’s infringement upon the direction of the party. I saw this happening way back then, and opted out of the Republican party.

My work in 1986 helped save a Republican president and his administration. My work in 1988 helped save this nation from an unnecessary war in Nicaragua (more on that some other time).

I have been doing deep research on political issues for some two decades. Out of the limelight, yes, but involved, YES.

If you READ the Declaration of Independence, along with the history behind its coming about, and you READ the postings on freedomfocus.org, you will UNDERSTAND that these positions are NOT LIBERAL, BUT ACTUALLY CONSERVATIVE.

Myself, and most of the contributors to postings on FreedomFocus.org, are conservative. Strong on “Inalienable Human Rights” and “Civil Rights”, as in our view they are the bellweather of American strength, not weakness.

Just because we openly challenge this president, vice president, their policies … and their party, does not make us liberals… in the sense of a political party.

Have you ever looked up the definitions for “liberal”. Take a minute and peruse this at Dictionary.com: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=liberal

a. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.

b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.

c. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.

d. Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.

If we fall into any category of “liberals”, it would be associated with a. and b.

What many of the responses entail is the inability to ‘accept challenge’. The fear of being challenged, the fear of change.

One thing for sure of myself, and from my knowledge, from the other contributors at FreedomFocus.Org, WE ARE NOT AFRAID TO CHALLENGE. WE ARE NOT AFRAID OF TRUTH. WE ARE NOT AFRAID OF CHANGE.

Thank you,
Bruce Senator, Director
FreedomFocus.org

All this talk is pointless. The Election is Here. The Game has Begun. In One Month, we will know who shall Rule!!! Will it be the Tin Man or the Scarecrow?

Man Your Lawyers and Prepare to Sue!!! May the Best Spinner Win!!!

Aldous.

WE ARE NOT AFRAID TO CHALLENGE. WE ARE NOT AFRAID OF TRUTH. WE ARE NOT AFRAID OF CHANGE.

We are not afraid to Challenge either - unfortunately Bush 1 and Clinton were.

We are not afraid of the Truth either - We just wish Kerry would choose a position and stick with it so we would know the truth as he sees it.

We are afraid of Change - If that change means Kerry being elected President. Fortunately it looks like the Republicans will pick up about 4 Senate seats and 7 - 8 House seats.

Adrienne
- Conservatism doesn’t relate to the nazi’s either.
- kerry signed the patriot act bill making it law
- Don’t need independent sites to find kerry does not support the 2nd Amendment. Go to his site. He supports the assault weapons ban and registration of firearms.
- As an atheist, I support your seperation of church and state views. But it says shall not establish a religion. It does not say or imply in any way that anybody cannot promote their religion when in public. If a teacher wishes to wear a god shirt, that is not wrong or unlawful, but in todays US, that teacher is fired or reprimanded. That is wrong to carry a hatred of religion so far as to totally ban it from all public places. It is actually unConstitutional.
- It is also funny how some look for whichever meaning of a word that will support their positions. Divine, with a capital D clearly states who they were refering to.
- The majority of the founders were Christians and yes, they wanted to ensure that churches did not control the govt. but that does not mean that govt. can or should control where and how people believe in God. The country was founded on religous principles and without these principles, our country has become the cesspool it is today.

Adrienne, we agree on so much and many of our views are the same. I just don’t see any real difference between the two.
To support kerry for what he may or may not have done or what you think he will do, is fine. It just does not work for me.
I do not want a cut in pay(tax increase), kerry’s health plan is a ridiculous fantasy, he is anti-gun, he degraded and insulted his fellow soldiers and he believes in a very powerful UN.
Bush hardly scores any better on these issues, but since he does score, even alittle, better, I will probably end up voting for that clown over the other clown. But my vote will not be because of some party blind misconceptions I have of Bush.

Have fun voting today, hope all goes well for you. And thanks for all your replies.

I find it interesting when the right acuses the left thusly: “They are like religious fanatics at this point (not the entire left mind you, but a sizable portion).”

I guess the left is “like” as opposed to the right who “are”.

I was having a discussion with my boss, today. He owns a small engineering firm and was expressing his frustration over dealing with the City and County requirements to do business with them. They’re are the basic business requirements of incorporation, registration, accounting and insurance. The city and county adds an ISO 9001 certification requirement as well as certified technicians on their projects which are very costly. Then you’ve got to grease the wheels of the politicians to get contracts. He was bemoaning these costs and tired of dealing with these cerification costs.

I have helped three start up companies in this field and these costs are extremely prohibitive to a small company with limited revenues. Private contracts won’t pay for these additional costs and don’t require them.

I am not convinced that the 9001 certification actually adds to quality if the owner is not quality conscious to begin with, it mostly adds tons of paper and fodder for lawyers. These costs have made me consider other cities if I were to start my own company.

I think government has a great deal to do with job creation. After all, the monetary system is completely controlled by the government. Government is usually restrictive, but often in ways that prevents criminality. It can be oppressive and destructive to business. In the case of the Resolution Trust Corporation it actually resurrected the economy from ruin.

People are always driven by greed. My Father taught me the lesson of America is that it has made that greed work for good of the system, instead of against it.

It saddens me deeply to see that “Dubya” may well be re-elected for a second term!! It seems that the majority (although, by only a few %) of Americans have the opinion a leaders responsibility is to “Protect them from Terrorism” and this is the sole reason for electing a President.

What they seem to disregard are the worldwide political, economic and environmental ramifications of this decision. All that can happen from here is America becoming more and more alienated as they doggedly persist with their “War on Terror”. It worries me that based on their current foreign policy and justifications for invading Iraq, as a country that “Harbours terrorists” has “Weapons of Mass Destruction” and is ruled by a “Tyrannical Dictatorship”. Based on these criteria, when are they going to invade North Korea (both a Communist state and has nuclear capability) maybe Ireland or Spain for harbouring terrorists (see the years of killings and terrorism by the IRA and ETA) or maybe Zimbabwe (a country being torn apart by the dictatorship of Mugabe).

Economically America can not sustain the amount it is spending on the so-called “War” and producing an economic deficit that is spiralling totally out of control. This may well result in an economic melt down as seen in the far-east previously, with the resulting economic implosion dragging a recovering world economy back in to the depths of a recession.

The final worry is of the global environment. With the USA producing over 25% of the world green houses gasses they will still not ratify the Kyoto treaty. It seems that driving along the highway in a 4-Litre SUV with Air Conditioning and paying $1 for a gallon of gas is of far more important than the long term harm this is having on the global environment. To be honest that about sums up the largely xenophobic and insular outlook taken by the Republicans who have elected to put G.W pack into office!!

Kudos! It’s about time some mudslinging went back to the Republicans for their hatred of liberals through the years on talk radio! That asinine Limbaugh accuses Hillary of murdering someone..He calls women “Feminazi’s”. Who started this “Nazi” name calling here first? Our Constitution is being shredded to bits You want to know about a Nazi takeover, I give you, “Unconstitutional” a real film documentary.
This has been planned for years for a Republican takeover to eliminate every single program in the Great Society which has helped none other than yes, people especially the poor and middle class who make the rich become rich in the first place. You know, the ungrateful, selfish ones who breed these qualities into the next generation? Don’t care for your neighbor type just want to kill them? Remember Republicans care for the rich and the corporations and the Liberals care for the common working man. The concept has never changed. Who’s side do you think Bush and Cheney are on? You figure it out and when there is the elimination of the department of education, the rollback of 30 years on the environment, the killing of whales, the stripping of our old forests, elimination of women’s reproductive rights, deregulation of our airlines (watch tower people are losing their jobs), polluting of our waters with mercury and arsenic, deregulation of worker safety rules, elimination of Social Security, more deaths of our soldiers, and you are going to ask yourself, who am I going to blame this time for this disaster, Liberals? Hmm….Enjoy this delightful deceiving show folks because this administration has just made suckers out of every one of us! Remember, there’s a sucker born every minute! Superb article with intelligence!

Where were all you liberals when your hero, bill clinton sent our troops into Bosnia and Kosovo? He sent the most capable, powerful Army in the world into harms way to be shot at so that they could build urinals and ladel out soup to refugees. Where were the liberals and MoveOn.org screaming “Milosevic didn’t attack us! Milosevic didn’t bomb the U.S.!” How are liberals all of a sudden so altruistic and meals on wheels about our military’s role when a democrat is in office, but so isolationist and so cautious to use it when a republican is in power? There’s got to be at least one intrepid liberal with the balls to answer this whopper.

WHAT A BELLY LAUGH!

One day after the election, 5 hours after Kerry the Poodle threw up his hands and gave up (how FRENCH of him), I read the crap that has been left here and all I can do (after I hold my lunch down) is to LAUGH, LAUGH and LAUGH some more.

Get over it you left leaning wackos

Rice/Cheney in 2008!