Democrats & Liberals: Archives

Bert, didn’t you hear that God’s on their side?
No we know how low the republican party will go. Maybe it’s time for the so called christains to find out really who God is.

Your should the Democrats send out flyers that say Bush is the Anti-Christ?

Henry,

A blog friend was recently soliciting Bush phrases for a sign over a local highway overpass. My best offering went:

Bush: Jesus Is the Only Ally America Needs

So much of Western (now world) civilization is based on the Bible. The concepts we recognize as freedom of speech, human rights and a progressive view of history are all gifts of Jews and Christians and Christianity was the vehicle that passed Hellenic and classical culture to us. If you subtract the Judeo-Christian heritage from America, you don’t have America anymore.

I am not a practicing Christian, but I have read the Bible, some passages many times. The more I read and studied the Bible and the writings of the Church fathers etc, the more impressed I became with the achievement.

What troubles me about some liberals (not all liberals and it is not part of legitimate liberal ideology) is contempt for and ignorance of the Judeo-Christian tradition. They emphasize the missteps and bigotry that are the excess of any system of belief and ignore or downplay the many contributions that created our society. In popular entertainment, the Christians are very often the hypocritical villains. Religion is banished from the public schools so much that it becomes impossible to understand American history. You can’t understand how and why the puritans created a flourishing society in rocky and inhospitable New England without reference to religion, or how the Mormons made the desert bloom. The Gettysburg Address and Lincoln’s second inaugural lose most of their meaning to those unfamiliar with the Bible. The UN universal declaration of human rights only makes sense in a Judeo Christian context. There was really nothing “universal” it until Judeo-Christian ideas came to dominate the world. Martin Luther King understood that civil rights were based on the Judeo-Christian tradition. The scary thing to me is that many otherwise educated people don’t even know that they don’t know these thngs. Thomas Jefferson was accused of being an atheist, because he questioned revealed truth. You can see his edited version of the Bible at Monticello. (He cut out the parts he didn’t think belonged) The thing to remember is that he read and respected the Bible enough to edit it very carefully. Even “atheist” Americans are “reformed protestants” in their basic culture.

What frightens Christians and many moderates is the attempt to deny America’s Christian heritage. When we give serious consideration to taking “In God we trust” off our coins or taking “under God” out of the pledge of allegiance, it is troubling. Conservatives should not play on these fears, but liberals should not encourage them.

I agree with Democrats when they complain that “people keep bringing up Clinton” yet, how much validity does that cry have when Democrats can’t seem to get past Willie Horton, which was so blown out of proportion and labelled as ‘racist’ by the type of campaign strategists that suggested to Kerry that he should go after Bush for the SBVFT ads.

I know that it was only mentioned as a reference but it was done for a purpose and just causes most people who are sick of such things to tune out anything said afterwards, instead of doing what is hoped, to get more people to be drawn to the article.

HTH

Bert, the lead story until Monday morning?

Though a Republican, I don’t agree with that mailing you refer to either. But the doings of either party’s branch offices in obscure parts of the coutnry are hardly major news, and the national RNC has already distanced itself from the ad. Are you so sure there aren’t plenty of equivelant mailings sent out by po-dunk party Democratic party offices throughout the country (many of which are often manned by one old lady with a telephone and fax machine she barely knows how to use)?

Having said that, I find it interesting that you’d consider that ad so potentially damaging to the Republicans.

It’s simply true that Democrats have often tried to get religious symbols and activities out of schools, though “banning” the bible is ridiculous hyperbole. Nevertheless, a large portion of Americans do resent the Democrats on this issue.

And it’s also true that they (more so than Republicans, though not much more so) support gay marriage. And you know what, even if I tend to agree more with the Democratic position on these matters, THE VAST MAJORITY of Americans who don’t live in coastal big cities do not. So even if the Republican national party were clearly linked to this mailing, Bush would only lose votes in places like New York, Boston and San Francisco.

Somehow I don’t think Karl Rove is losing sleep over it.

Well said, Martin.

I am not particularly religious, but do recognize the Judeo -Christian heritage of our country.

While I do believe religion has played a civilizing role in the world, it also is a source of zealotry and bigotry that has lead to genocide and tyranny.

There was a reason that Jefferson and the other forefathers while religious did explicitly include the separation of church and state adment in our constitution.

While many people I know are uncomfortable with homosexuality, I suspect time and science is on the side of tolerance for gay lifestyles.

I personally think the Willie Horton phase is the only phase that GW has ever been in. There is a disturbing pattern of personal reputation assassination associated with anyone who opposes this administrations policies.

When I was in grade school, we had a local church bible study lady who would spend an hour a week or so with us singing hymns and or children’s bible discussions.I don’t think it really harmed anyone there, and was, of course, eventually banned. Of course I lived in a midwest mostly white district, who by and large were of christian backgrounds.

I went to a Sunday school once with a neighbor when I was about 5 or 6 once and challenged some of what the Sunday school teacher was teaching as fact as her opinion , not mine, which I now look back on as funny. We simply agreed to disagree. I was raised not to believe in mythology including Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny as well.

While I often feel a certain distain and superiority from those who see Christianity as what civilised people think, I have never really felt any great discrimination either, but then it usually doesn’t come up.

I believe in morality and recognize that a lot of dyed-in-the-wool “Christians” are not very moral.Many Americans do not see their own country’s history of genocide and racism nor accept the biases that still exist.

Not all who claim Patriotism or Morality possess either. Not all who object to flag waving and cultural or religious biases are immoral traitors either.

It’s nice to here moderated voices from time to time.

I can’t help but compare the ludicrous charge that Democrats want to ban bibles to Howard Dean’s comment about “an administration where they like book burning better than reading books.”

Was this a factual statement of the part of Howard Dean? Has the administration held book burnings?

Why does such a remark by a leading Democratic figure (in fact, a sainted hero of the left) attract so little condemenation when some dumb little mailing by some low-level branch office in Arkansas generates irate comments about the death of civility?

I think I remember now… there are two sets of rules, one for Democrats and another for Republicans.

Jack,

I was baptized a Catholic, confirmed as a Lutheran, and spent the better part of my teenage years actively involved in a Christian Reformed church. I believe my personal commitments to being honest, fair, admit my mistakes, respectful of my elders, and treating others, as I would prefer to be treated - are rooted in those years of religious education.

Jack said:

They (Liberals) emphasize the missteps and bigotry that are the excess of any system of belief and ignore or downplay the many contributions that created our society.

Jack, as a gay man, I’ve been discriminated against due to the strict adherence of what you call simple ‘missteps’. Those ‘excess[es] of any system of belief’, also justified slavery, segregation, and opposition to interracial marriage.

It is the influence of such ‘downsides’ to religion, that forced our founders to write a demarcation with our form of government, into the Constitution. Yes, Judeo-Christian ethics are the foundation of our form of society, however it also empowers us to object and resist injustices, done in the name of ‘missteps’.

Rhinehold,

I’d be very interested to hear from you, how the Horton TV ad did not play into the ingrained fear of White’s stereotype of violent Black criminals? Was the commercials use of a Black man, purely coincidence? In a still racially sensitive society, wouldn’t it been more prudent to use a white subject, to avoid any controversy?

Martin,

If there are any equivalent types of materials produced by the DNC, we would already know about, or you would’ve had it handy for your post. In fact, as a WB poster careful about his credibility, suggesting, but not bothering to corroborate the existence of such material, is something I would never do.

Would you agree Martin, that this ‘doing of a branch office, in an obscure part of the country’, rises (at least) to the level of the Sandy Berger incident? Of course, that did not stop you Republicans from blowing it up into a national security breach, which would reach far into the Kerry campaign?

And, as usual, I need to correct one of your many sweeping and erroneous generalities:

A large portion of [Evangelical Christians and Southern Baptists, intolerant of other religions] Americans do resent the Democrats on this issue.

I’d like to emphasis also, that of the three of you, Martin was the only clear (but, weak) denouncement of a blatant ‘dirty trick’ on the part of the RNC.

As a result, one can only conclude that the deceitful exploitation of such ignorance, has the full support of all three of you.

Martin,

I see you must’ve visited your Conservative cyber headquarters for applicable ‘talking points’?

Sorry, your Dean quote doesn’t cut! When Terry McCauliffe and DNC prints it in Party literature (as the position of the party and it’s candidate), bring me a copy!!

Bert, here’s what you’re demanding to see.

And I think Dean’s remark about administration book-burnings is another example of the kind of fear-mongering you find so troubling from Republicans but claim Democrats would never, never indulge in.

But on to the Sandy Berger incident. You’re comparing apples and oranges, since the Berger incident had to do with potentially stealing classified goverment documents and this mailing has to do with political advertizing. I don’t see enough points of similarity to really compare them as equivelent events. I’m not trying to undermine whatever point you’re making (at this point) since I still can’t see what it is.

It also needs to be said that the Willie Horton ad was not produced by the Republican party but an independent organization.

Also, Bert, could you please supply a link to Conservative Cyberheadquarters for me?

If there is such a place, I’d love to find it and save myself some work. I doubt, however, that there would be “talking points” there to combat such a non-story as the content of mailings from local Republican offices in West Virginia and Arkansas!

Martin,

I’d really like to see more of this out of you! So, where you get the link? Free Republic message board?

First, my comparison to the Sandy Berger story had nothing to do with the particulars. (Although, you knew that.) You claim this ‘Bible fear mongering by the RNC’ is a non-story, and I wondered if the Berger incident was just as inconsequential, in your opinion? Again, knowing that I’m not gonna get a straight, honest answer out of you Martin, let’s move on.

Sorry buddy, strike two! Your example does not pass the smell test. Lemme lay out the specifics before you get the chance to distort them.

Your ad (originating at the DNC), uses the very real possibility of a coming draft, to get people to register to vote! It is not used to defeat any specific candidate or party. Just a needed jolt to young adults to wake up! Your RNC distributed campaign material, was specifically aimed to defeat the Dem Party!

Willie Horton Ad

This ad was produced by a Republican PAC, mentions Bush specifically, and was never denounced by his campaign! If it was not intended to help Bush Sr., what was its purpose then, Martin?

Jack,
I have to take you to task on your comment of “If you subtract the Judeo-Christian heritage from America, you don’t have America anymore” Our Founding Fathers made the First Admendment because they knew if the country would allow ANY RELIGION to gain control of our country it would be the death of The United States of America. No America was founded on the God of Nature and the belief that every man had the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. Religion be damm, for it has been the ignorance and surpression of man for to many years.

For over 4,000 years political leaders in the Old World have used religion leaders to oppress the populace through such actions as we are wittnessing today with the repulican party. So blind is these followers that they believe their faith is better than anyone else. So raged is their hate that God him self has become a weapon. So masked our their ministers that they spit out lies about the Savior. No my friend this Christian Right movement degrades everything that Judeo-Christian and other religions stand for.

America has, is, and will always be a country that upholds the principles of what is right. Not the belief that some religion is right,but that all religions adhere to the same general principles of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

For it is “W”-RONG for the republican party to state that some liberals is contempt for and ignorance of the Judeo-Christian tradition. How are you or any mere mortal to judge a man’s mind? For Christ himself said that judgement was Gods’ and Gods’ alone. No, the republican party leaders along with certain false religious leaders are trying to lead good christian followers astray from the flock. Research your religious beliefs and place them up against the rest of the religions and mthologies of the world and you will find that all fall short of the teaching of God. For he can not be found in church on Sunday, nor in the reading of any one verse. No, God will judge his followers by the way they walk through life (Last Book Old Testiment).

I recently read a good little book review/essay by Alan Wolfe on Samuel Huntington’s book, “Who Are We?”

Huntington says unrestricted immigration is diluting America’s Anglo-Protestant core identity. Wolfe says that’s not what America is all about.

Wolfe argues that, rather than try to enforce an American culture, we should instead enfoce an American creed.

It’s worth a read.

Good article Bert. The mailing is underhanded and wrong, but not unexpected. Unfortunately there will be people who believe it.

Willy Horton ad’s only work if their true! Mr. Horton was a problem, and now Mr. kerry’s position on the war is the problem! So, please tell me how you can defend the lies, distortions, and half truths spoken by your side, and be so incensed when our side brings up the truth?

I suspect all of you know down deep in your heart what has transpired between the DNC, CBS, and the lad from Texas, and if the truth be known, you abhore it as much as I do.

Face it, like Richard Nixon, they were caught with their fingers in the cookie jar!And just like Nixon, no ammount of I am sorry, will get their reputation back.

Please remember who it was that first brought up this “war hero” V Guard thing in the first place. Good grief, this started with Ma Richards in Texas, through Al Gore, and it still has no legs because it isn’t true!

We all have one major worry at this point, and that is keeping the terrorists where they are, in Iraq, Iran, Seria, but not here! In my humble opinion, President Bush is the best man for that job, period.

Tom

Ha ha, Bert. I’d be offended if your remarks even tried to make sense—an AP report is no different from a Free Republic posting as far as you’re concerned? Stealing classified government documents is no different from sending out political mailers that include exaggerations? Shall I similarly ask where you’re getting your talking points? No, I’ll just deal with the substance or lack thereof of your remarks and leave the snide remarks and efforts to change the subject to those who must do so because facts are not on their side.

I guess that when Democrats send out a mailing telling people they have two options—register to vote or get drafted and sent to war, they are not doing so for any political reason. Definitely not to defeat anybody or help anybody else. They’re just telling a ridiculous and cartoonish lie as an equal opportunity public service? Do you really believe that, Bert? Do we need the Free Republic to point out what is obvious to any twelve year old? If so, then Free Republic must be the source of all common sense in the universe—maybe I will start reading it.

Of course the Willie Horton ad, one of those big boogey-men of Democratic victimhood mythology (like the Cleland ad), was intended to help Bush. But so what? That was before McCain-Feingold and the law against a PAC mentioning its favored candidate in an ad.

Though I think the Willie Horton ad was a bit untasteful, it had a vaild point and it pales in comparison to the vile race-baiting propaganda routinely put out by the Democrats and the professional demagagues among their NAACP supporters. Remember this one:

“On June 7, 1998 in Texas my father was killed. He was beaten, chained, and then dragged 3 miles to his death, all because he was black.

So when Governor George W. Bush refused to support hate-crime legislation, it was like my father was killed all over again.”

Disgusting stuff, the lowest most vile type of racial argument possible—at least that what the computer chip Free Republic put in my brain is telling me to think.

We all have one major worry at this point, and that is keeping the terrorists where they are, in Iraq, Iran, Seria, but not here!

And just how (and why, for that matter) do you think Bush is keeping them there, Tom? They seem to be operating wherever they want, and invading Iraq the way Bush did just boosted al Qaeda recruitment.

Also, please tell me how you can defend the lies, distortions, and half truths spoken by your side, and be so incensed when our side brings up the truth?

Tom,
You mean the document that CBS published wasn’t true or that Bush avoided Vietnam by using influence to get into the National Guard wasn’t true?

Or maybe Bush told the truth when he accused Ann Richards of being a drunk? I guess he sorta forgot about his DUI arrest. Not that he lied about it or anything.

Or maybe when he lied about the yellow cake in Nigeria. Or maybe when he lied about the cost of the War. Or maybe when he lied about the WMD. Or maybe when he lied about Medicare. Or No child left behind. Or Kerry’s voting record. Or maybe the lie about the state of the situation in Iraq is more to your taste.

Ummm Nixon was president when he ordered a felony break in and perjury. Dan Rather isn’t POTUS.Bush is a lying corporate shill.period.

There is no actual evidence whatsoever that Bush used any undue influence at any time in the National Guard. He asked for transfers, more time to do certain things and other allowances which are actually routine for the National Guard (which isn’t regular military and which is specifically designed to let people hold other jobs and conduct other activiites).

And Greg, the yellow cake story was true and it was Joe Wilson that lied. Even the New York Times and Washington Post have admitted it.

Hey, how do you like the new Swiftvet ad?

Tom,
How can you still believe Bush is an holy saint when he himself says he don’t remember a thing about those years. Your boy even made the news for a day or two about his cocaine use or I suppose an ounce of coke is just for personal use. Keep believing in your false god and watch what life shows you.

Here’s Henry in another thread: “we as a society need to explain to ALL EXTREMIST that THINK that they are right almost are always wrong. And that makes us that KNOW we are right just plain mad. Common Sense, Logic, and Facts should drive the debates on the issues.”

So thank you Henry for the cocaine bit—do you think you’re right about that? Good to see that in your ongoing search for facts and logic (which apparently means “any internet rumor or sensational tidbit from Kitty Kelley” no matter how silly so long as it attacks Bush) you are elevating intellectual discourse to such a dizzying level around here.

Martin,
The abuse of cocaine by Bush was picked up by the news media back before we all had computers. If you have the millions of hours it would take to search the CNN Headline News you would find the articles. Well, maybe it seems that Daddy Bush helped cover the actions up.

It’s like America saying we don’t have a working photon laser when about 3:00 AM one day in 83 the news channels showed the actual test of shotting down a missle in flight. In fact the laser took 2.3 GW to operate. You see some of us still have a memory.

Henry, a lot of anti-Bush stories are “picked up by the media”—and without regard to whether or not they’re based on lies or even forged documents.

I have no idea whether Bush ever used cocaine, and neither do you. Most people I know (myself included, and I suspect most Americans) have at one point or another used an illegal drug. Wow—what a revelation!

And here we all thought that most people’s idea of a party during their twenties is to eat carrot sticks and drink hot chocolate!

That you see fit to throw such an assertion—which is 1)without proof and 2) beside the point if it is even true, is just another example of the kind of attack the left sees fit to throw at Bush since nothing else will stick. But guess what—that’s not going to stick either.

Well, I see that I have brought all of you out to discuss your shortcomings! What makes you think that if kerry pulls out, the French, germans, ET AL will go in? Can you all be that blinded by your hatered for George Bush that you are willing to drink the cool aid?

This election is simple kids, kerry has no experience in fighting any terriorist’s at all, not even his relitives! President Bush has done it since 9/11/2004, and as far as I can see, we have had no attack’s on U.S. soil since then.

Many of you may be to young to know the name Nevil Chamberlin, but, he too was like kerry, “peace in our time”, only to be attacked three months later!

I am struck by the slanderous remarks you see fit to hurl at our President in a time of war, and shocked by the fact that none of you seem to be affected by kerry’s admitance that he “committed war crimes” (Senate testamony, 1971), or that he violated his oath as a Navy officer by meeting with North Vietnames delagates in 1971/72!

This man, (kerry) is without honor, as any person who was in the “hanoi Hilton” at the time of his remarks will tell you. I will tell you that as a former member of the Navy, I find his action’s to be, at best, a blight on the Naval service, and at worst, Treason!

If, like I, you are old enough to have served this great country, and now you have grand children, I would ask you to reflect on the little ones, and ask yourselves, will apeasement be the right path, knowing that they (the terriorists) will look upon it as a weakness, or will I do the right thing, and stay the course with George Bush!

For their sake, I ask that you look into your heart’s, forget the bravo seria, and vote for George Bush!!!

Tom

Martin wrote:

“On June 7, 1998 in Texas my father was killed. He was beaten, chained, and then dragged 3 miles to his death, all because he was black.

So when Governor George W. Bush refused to support hate-crime legislation, it was like my father was killed all over again.”

Disgusting stuff, the lowest most vile type of racial argument possible—at least that what the computer chip Free Republic put in my brain is telling me to think.

Martin, the comment you call ‘disgusting stuff, the lowest most vile type of racial argument possible’, was not something made up and put out by the NAACP, as you infer. They were the anguished words of Renee Mullens, the daughter of James Byrd Jr., who was dragged to his death, sole because he was Black.

Martin, I have seen you justify lies by the Swift Boat Vets, and look the other way while your party uses religious bigotry and homophobia as wedge issues, then slate avowed racists as Congressional candidates. But, this the lowest you’ve ever sunk!

No matter what you think of your participation, I am confident that most WB readers would agree with this previous assessment:

Let me be clear, that I will maintain no longer respect your opinion, in spite of the fact that I am once again confronted with your practice of spouting half-truths, your fixation with semantics as credible arguing points, and your preference that I not bring up any solid evidence.

My feeling on religion in politics is that when politicians invoke God and the Bible to back their policies, Jesus sighs and says “If I really wanted to take sides in politics, I would have given the pharisees a straight answer on the temple tax.”

Jesus wasn’t about to take up a sword and save Judea from the Romans. He wasn’t going to tell his people to break him out of jail. He had other, more important things on his mind than human power. I don’t oppose the mixing of religion and government because I do not think well of religious principles. I oppose it because I know that politics is of man, not of God, and anybody who legislates God into the law will do so without God’s perfection, and therefore without his infallibility.

My brother, a more secular fellow than I, would say that people need to be arguing things from first principles. I think Christians in government need to deeply examine their own souls, examine the morality of a situation, and support their assertions in persuasive moral terms that one doesn’t have to be a Christian to understand. Finally, I think we need to be realistic- the United States is a secular nation, and we should no more depend on our government to defend religious values than early Christians could count on Rome to embody them.

A bit of trivia: In God We Trust and Under God, respectfully have only been on our money and in the pledge since the 1950s. Nobody ever thought to do that before then, in 150 years of American History, as far as I’m aware. Have they served their purpose, made us a more religious people? I doubt it. They can stay or go by the wayside. I don’t care. I recited the pledge for years at school, it neither offended me or made a Christian out of me. That took discussion, reason, and my own spiritual impulses

Bert, even Juan Williams, as well as many others on the left, condemned the NAACP for running that ad. So insisting that the NAACP didn’t run it or that disagreeing with it is just racist right-wing behavior is either an error or your part or a deliberate attempt to mislead. Frankly, I consider it a service when someone corrects me—you apparently take it as a reason to pick up your marbles and go home. Saying that you have “solid evidence” and that anything contradicting it is a “half truth” or “semantic point” when your basic facts are wrong does nothing to bolster your case. I’ve treated you personally with nothing but respect—have certainly not said that you get all your information from partisan websites (which seems to be your own tactic when you’d prefer not to engage with inconvenient facts).

Saying that the ad contained just the anguished words of a begrieved daughter ignores the NAACP’s attempt (and it was the NAACP who ran it, despite your mysterious protestation otherwise) to exploit that grief. They ran what many—including many on the left—found to be a disgusting, repulsive and dispicable attack ad.

Bush was essentially being accused of lynching James Byrd—a hateful and vitriolic thing to accuse anybody of unless they’re truly guilty.

Imagine this ad: A begrieved daughter of a 9-11 victim says “On 9-11 my father was killed for the sole reason that he was American. Each time John Kerry speaks out against the Patriot Act, it’s like my father is being killed all over again.”

Fair? Of course not? We’d all condemn such and ad. But how would it be any different from the NAACP’s ad which even Juan Williams found so disgusting?

Also, Bert, as a gay man myself I don’t need your lectures about life as a member of a minority. Further, saying that “most” unnamed WB posters support your wish to make a conservative voice here go away may or may not be true. Actually, I’ve found many left leaners here to be actually interested in hearing more than just the majority left-leaning consensus that usually dominates this blog. That ought to be a good thing.

Stephen

My father was born in 1921. His father gave him a silver dollar from the year of his birth. I have it in my desk. On the back it says “In God we trust” This was an innovation of Abraham Lincoln. I think you are right about the pledge, but the whole pledge of alliance is a relatively recent thing. In either case, it doesn’t bother me because it is very non-specific.

I believe in the separation of church and state. You can’t trust religion when the civil authorities will enforce its edicts. I also recognize that this separation is another gift of Judeo Christian culture. No other culture does this. The cult of the leader is part of most pagan religions. The Islamic ideal is that the church is the state. Most traditional cultures define many things as sacred or taboo and there are real world, here and now penalties enforced on those who violate them.

The test of anything is not whether it is perfect at its inception (because nothing is), but whether or not it can evolve into something better. We Americans (other Westerners and increasingly people worldwide) live in the culture that evolved out of the Judeo-Christian tradition. We are not a perfect society, but answer this question, What would happen if someone tried to set up a mosque in the capital of Catholic Christianity – in Rome? Now try to open a church in Mecca.

As for Atheists - count the bodies. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot all dispensed with traditional religion and tried to replace it with a cult of the state. When you believe in nothing, you will fall for anything. I have always said that I am not religious enough to be an atheist. Moderation in all things and let people judge based on their own conscience, a very Western sentiment.

As for Atheists - count the bodies. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot all dispensed with traditional religion and tried to replace it with a cult of the state.

Hitler was an atheist??? That’s news to me.

Just for kicks, I googled “Hitler Christianity”. This site obviously has an axe to grind, but their source material is pretty persuasive.

Leaving Hitler aside, anyone could turn your argument around and make it an argument against religion: “count the bodies” shed in the name of the Supreme Being.

Hitler may have invoked some warped version of Christianity, but he was also heavily involved in cultish Aryan paganism and he sent a huge number of Christians to the death camps. To the shame of the Catholic church (and the then pope, who was weak for a variety of reasons—not the least being his location in Mussolini’s Itaty), Hitler also managed to intimidate and bribe German Catholic officials, some of whom even helped hide Nazi war criminals and aided in their escape to South America.

This has nothing to do with the teachings of Christianity, however, and MANY of the most potent anti-Nazis in Europe were also fervent Christians who resisted Hitler out of Christian beliefs.

In fact, one of the most moving and little known stories of World War II is the story of this man, a devout Christian who was one of the first to challenge Hitler and who eventually died in the camps.

Martin,
It’s funny how the right expects the left and center to use real facts to make their case against the holy leader Bush. Yet, the right can pass out flyers and advertisement that has no proof and not worry if the information sticks to their opponent. Sounds like the republicans has a problem with the double standard clause.

Oh! That’s Right. Did you know Bush has been charged with aiding the enemy?

Yes, sorry to inform you, but Bush has been charged with aiding the enemy.

Proof: linktext">http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html/link”>linktext
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html