Democrats & Liberals: Archives

Excellent article Walker. It seems like every strongman leader is following Bush’s lead in reclassifying their trouble makers as “foreign terrorists” and cloaking their internal pacification efforts under the mantle of Bush’s global war on terror.

It’s as if “terrorists” has become the password into a club of nations that can now piss on international laws which they originally signed off on.

Bush used the code word to “secure” oil resources in the Middle East, Putin’s using it to get the US & EU off his back while he strengthens his hold on Russia’s reluctant republics, China is using it to crack down on Chinese Muslims and further cow Tibet, Allawi is using it as a clarion call for help in subjugating all of Iraq under his US appointed interim government of former exiles.

Look for new members of the club to come from Central and South America.

Excellent!
Walker, I think you hit the nail on the head. Listening to This Week TV show with Senator Biphen and his counter part your article goes to show how bad things are in Iraq and our administration.

Instead of Bush Embracing Putin and offering a hand in friendship, he still wants to throw stones at his problems. Although I feel a little bit (well maybe) for the die hard repulicans, they must give the way to the fact that even Congress knows that Bush is wrong.

AP,
Hang in there November is coming hopefully

Wow. I can’t wait to see the next chapter in this exciting horror-fantasy series.

What’s next? Unmarked black helicoptors swooping down on every major American city to suspend the election in November? Bush/Cheney/Haliberton nationalizing all oil companies and drilling in every backyard in America? The arrest of Kerry and Edwards for saying bad things about the President? Bambi being assassinated from a grassy knoll by an unknown gunman?

Putting Hitler, Putin, and Bush in the same category is absurd and I’m surprised that anyone outside of the far-right fringies somewhere in the western mountains, and of course the Moore brigade, would actually even consider it.

Let’s review: Islamist murderers killed a few thousand of our fellow-citizens and our government tightened up our security to try and keep it from happening again.

One minute you’re whining about the poor security and the failure to act quickly enough and the next you’re whining about the Patriot Act being too secure.

To continue with our review: Islamist murderers killed a few hundred innocent kids in Russia. Putin’s personal power grab is what you might expect, given Putin’s quest for permanent personal power. Oh yeah, and there’s those murdered kids of course, which it seems to me merits a much stronger response than the burning of an empty building in Germany 60+ years ago.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to find some lead foil to help ward off those evil GOP conspiracy rays that seem to be all over the place.

No NOTOTH, I do not have to spin far fetched theories about Halliburton drilling in my backyard, or the planned arrest of Democratic candidates, to be sufficiently outraged by what HAS already been done. Paul O’Neill, a stalwart Republican, provided the initial evidence that this administration did indeed want to use 9/11 as an excuse to go after Iraq, and Richard Clarke simply backed it up. It matters not that Saddam Hussein was the despicable thug that he was, using sexed up evidence to push our country into a war on false pretenses is unconscionable in my book. Pardon my scruples, they may seem quaint to you, but I’ll stand by them. And show me where I was whining about poor security. It’s so easily convenient to find an inconsistency in your opponent’s position if you ascribe to him every assertion made by anyone who shares his disdain for your President.

ROTFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I live in Jacksonville N.C., home of Camp LeJeune.
The 24th MEU just got back from Afganistan after 8 months.I was talking to several of them today and they paint a completely different picture than the media. Gee, who to believe. Of course there are a lot of bad stories, but easily outnumbered by the good ones. I talked at length with Dave (MSGT USMC). He said that the thing that effected him most was the kids. It was so sad that none of them could read or write.It suprised me that that was his first response.He said when they first got there they were going door to door to get the people to show them their weapons so they could inspect them. If they showed them to them they inspected them & gave them back.If they refused, they confiscated them.At first the people were sceptical, but when word got around the people were very cooperative.He said they were fixing up and opening schools and they’ve made a lot of progress just in the time they were there. Believe it or not that while we are seeing the explosions & watching the body counts there are tens of thousands of troops working their butts off helping to make that a better place for those people.Contrary to the minority which is all the media chooses to let us see.
This being the only reason that I would want Kerry to win this election. Because I would guarentee that that we would start to seeing the positive things that are going on in the majority of Afganistan and Iraq.
I would like someone to let me know exactly how the anti war movement gets away with “I support the troops but not the war.” Just how do you do that?

SUPPORT:(Websters) assist,advocate,corroborate,maintain,comfort,
uphold,champian.

I support your business,but I don’t believe in what you are selling,therefore,I will not buy anything from you & will tell everyone to talk bad about what you are doing and tell your competiters all the stuff I feel that you are doing wrong so they can proclaim it to all. But I support your workers.

I know.
(I’m supporting them by bringing them home)

Does anyone hear the troops or their families protesting & crying to come home? All the ones I talk to are under the impression that what they are doing is good.

I asked him if it was as bad as what he is seeing on tv & he said in some areas they would come under some fire, but personally he was only real concerned about 15-20 times. One of those times he earned a bronze star. Their vehicle came under fire & he got his guys out and to cover.His wife was mad at him for taking the risk,but nobody got hurt.I think he said they lost 5 guys the time they were there. I asked him if it was worth it, & he said of course.He said that most all of the “people” thanked them for helping them. All the guys I have talked to were upbeat and proud of the job they did. Have any of you talked to any of the troops? I’m just curious.It just seems odd to me that the media just focuses on the fire fights & explosions. I think we have seen every one of them. Other than the hotspots it is widely scattered. The majority of the civilians killed are by the “bad guys” and the people are seeing that.Why didn’t the media show the protest by several thousand people calling for Sader the killer to go! Seems that should have been newsworthy. All these liberal organized professional protests against the war at most can scrounge up 1 or 2 people who lost a loved one. All the rest say that their “babies” were doing what they were trained to do and were proud of them. As they arrive back, throngs of family and friends are waiting for them.Along hwy 24(the highway from the port to the base named Freedom way.) the whole town puts up sheets painted as banners welcoming them home. We let them know we are proud of them. Nobody wants to focus on the fact that like it or not we are there & we have to deal with situations as it happens. This Bush & Kerry lied is getting old. The troops are more important than the stupid election. Didn’t mean to get carried away, but seeing some of my friends get back today kinda put things in a different perspective.

Oh yea, I forgot, I choose to believe the actual men patrolling the streets interacting with the real people every day than the Iraq liberals running around that the reporters choose to interview,to get a story that they want to have. The troops have a job, not an agenda.

I repeat, if it takes a Kerry win to change the the reporting to some of the successes & not just the gloom & doom, A Kerry win would be worth it.

Other countries have used propaganda to help make their country look better.We have the best equipped and talented media in the world & all they can do is paint us in a negative light. That stinks!

Amen average joe, that is the same response I received from anyone participating, and I mean ACTUALLY participating, in the Iraq war. I live on Kirtland Air Force Base, Albuquerque, New Mexico. There have been several deaths in the family so to speak, and every single one of the families has gone on TV to publicly state that they were proud of their children and that their children believed in what they were doing.

“preemptive war”

What is this nonsense? I know there was a first strike… OH THAT’s RIGHT! The Pentagon, both of the World Trade towers, and an attempt at the White House. How about that.

averagejoe asked: “I would like someone to let me know exactly how the anti war movement gets away with “I support the troops but not the war.” Just how do you do that?”

This is so simple. Iraq could only be held together by a militarily oriented dictator, which it had in Saddam Hussein. We removed Saddam Hussein, now Iraq is unstable and will remain so until the IRAQI’S fight their civil war and resolve their differences one way or another.

Our mission to remove an outlaw dictator is done. Every soldier who dies or is wounded in Iraq after the capture and removal of Saddam is a wasted American life or limb. To be anti-war in Iraq past removing Hussein is precisely to be in support of our troops, their families, and our international respect. Bring them home, their mission was a success. Stop trying to turn them into fodder for schemes and pie in the sky ignorance of the intractable cultural, historical, and religious differences that are going to be fought amongst Iraqis, now or later. Our presence only delays the inevitable and wastes American soldiers lives. It is the ultimate lack of respect for our troops to keep feeding them to the terrorists whom we ourselves have attracted to Iraq in the first place.

fidelis,
“preemptive war” - nonsense?
Well at least you quoted part of the original, though you and average joe are both arguing with other people, not me.

But yeah, I can easily defend calling the war preemptive, and hardly need using leftist sources to do so. Though I suppose if you actually believe Saddam personally orchestrated 9/11 there’s no point in my wasting my time.

Was our government not making the case to PREEMPT Saddam’s potential use of WMD as their justification for striking?

I start out by pointing up some irony in a recent Bush chastening of Putin, which I acknowledge was appropriate. I also acknowledge that Putin’s actions were far more sweeping than the PATRIOT act, something a raving lefty would never do. I then go on to state my opinion that this administration has used 9/11 as an excuse for all manner of policy decisions, including the launching of a preemptive war.

Reasonable people might disagree with that opinion (though most don’t, including many conservatives), but NOTOTH, averagejoe, and semper argue instead with the opinions of others. It seems like “wear ‘em down with misdirection” to me. And that’s not to say that I agree with your points either, but none of you have made the case that this administration has not used 9/11 as an excuse for their policies.

Most of the troops do believe in the cause over there, and I’m glad of that, it’s painful enough as it is. But the evidence that things aren’t getting better very fast is ample. But you probably didn’t watch David Brancaccio’s interview with Richard Murphy.

Funny Averagejoe,
I live in Jacksonville, NC (Home of Camp LeJeune) too. I heard about the 24th MEU coming back and good for them. As far as supporting the troops, yes I do support the troops because they are risking life and limb as they are doing what they are paid to do. As far as the war is concerned, plain and simple Bush lied. I highly recommend the Documentary, “The Whole Truth about the Iraq War.” Do you want to see facts and not a sight of Michael Moore watch this. The CIA and all the other big wigs of the federal government points out the truths, the half truths, and the out right lies. As far as liberal media is concerned, get rid of that nonsense notion. THE MEDIA IS NOT LIBERAL NOR CONSERVATIVE, BUT BAD NEWS. If the media was liberal, then why does the media portray John Kerry as a piece of crap. I will tell you what, if you actually analyze it, they stick up for the President far more than what they do for Sen. John Kerry. The fact of the matter is look, the troops in Jacksonville are home, good. They worked hard and liberal or conservative, they deserve our respect. As far as John Kerry is concerned, I have my faith in him to win this damn election, but as time goes on day after day, the more I am begining the sink my teeth into the harsh reality that Sen. John Kerry may not want the White House that bad afterall.

avg, I’d love to see more good stuff happen in Afghanistan. How about we redeploy a hundred thousand or so troops from Iraq to Afghanistan? Then we could pacify & rebuild the entire country. We could destroy the Taliban, and who knows, maybe even exterminate bin Laden & al Queda - you know… the guys that are responsible for 9/11.

David:

You’ve stated in prior threads that you dont want the US to “cut and run” from Iraq. Yet that seems to be precisely the position you have moved to.

You say that removing Saddam was the ultimate goal, and since that is done, the US should bring its soldiers home. To take that a step further, I’d assume that the day after we caught Saddam in his spider hole, you were a proponent of bringing our soldiers home, since the goal was completed. (I’m making an assumption here, due to the inherent time lag of this format—-feel free to correct me if I assumed incorrectly).

But David, I’ve heard so many people complain about past US policies where we go in, raise some hell, and then leave. Isnt it the “left” who complains the loudest about Bush 41’s lack of support for the Kurds in the early 90’s? They say the US just left them to die.

Yet that is what you are calling for now. To leave too soon means that those with the most power (i.e.: weapons) takes control. It doesnt mean the will of the people is being done, but rather that the fear of being killed has taken hold.

You say yourself that Iraq is unstable—we need to stabilize it to a point where the Iraqi PEOPLE—not the militants— can take control. And that time will come.

AP:
avg, I’d love to see more good stuff happen in Afghanistan. How about we redeploy a hundred thousand or so troops from Iraq to Afghanistan? Then we could pacify & rebuild the entire country. We could destroy the Taliban, and who knows, maybe even exterminate bin Laden & al Queda - you know… the guys that are responsible for 9/11.

That sounds reasonable to me. Just let the ordinary people of Iraq worry about it.(they can’t) I want all of the troops to come home too.Thing is,regardless of how we got there, we’re there! My point is
that whoever wins,that’s not going to happen until the last few cities are under control.
I would prefer the media & poloticians to quit
adding fuel to the fire, and get on with the national debt & deficit & health care & trial lawyers unrealistic lawsuits & corporate welfare,
just to name a few!

Noel:

If the media was liberal, then why does the media portray John Kerry as a piece of crap.

They don’t portray him as such. They just show him just being himself. I do love them showing him windsurfing to make him look like a real person though. Looks like me on rollerskates.
I live on the coast, that’s not windsurfing.
That’s just funny! He needs to just stick with posing with a gun & looking like a hunter. It doesn’t look so ridicoulous.

jbod said: “You’ve stated in prior threads that you dont want the US to “cut and run” from Iraq. Yet that seems to be precisely the position you have moved to.”

Quite correct, jbod, see my comments in V. Martin’s article in the Third Party column, “Where do we go from here”.

You say that removing Saddam was the ultimate goal, and since that is done, the US should bring its soldiers home. To take that a step further, I’d assume that the day after we caught Saddam in his spider hole, you were a proponent of bringing our soldiers home, since the goal was completed.

No, prior to my comments in Martin’s column linked above, I held a very different view on the day Saddam was captured. That was before my fears of inevitable civil war and protracted U.S. presence and costs to stay off that civil war, were confirmed.

But David, I’ve heard so many people complain about past US policies where we go in, raise some hell, and then leave. Isnt it the “left” who complains the loudest about Bush 41’s lack of support for the Kurds in the early 90’s? They say the US just left them to die.

I don’t know about any uniform “left” voice on such issues. It is clear to me now, that Iraq was a mistake which will only be compounded multi-fold the longer we stay. Iraq is now a regional problem and the regional nations need to assume responsibility for supporting a unified Iraq if they are foolish enough, or help it split up, also a foolish venture. That will be be Bush’s legacy, a no win scenario for Iraq unless America continues to pour blood, a trillion dollars, and nearly all of its international respect into Iraq for decades to come, and for what, to hide Bush’s mistake? Bush and his reputation are not even close to being worth that price which he would ask all the rest of us to pay.

To leave too soon means that those with the most power (i.e.: weapons) takes control.

This logic fails utterly. WE have the most power and weapons, AND we do not have control. What makes you think it would be any different if we left? An international regional nation support to stand in our place as we exit to a preannounced time deadline is the only strategy that makes sense for America.

You say yourself that Iraq is unstable—we need to stabilize it to a point where the Iraqi PEOPLE—

If you think elections protected by American forces is going to stabilize any of the conflicts lying below the martial law surface, I would have to disagree. Democracy requires the consent of the governed, and historical, cultural, and religious rifts in Iraq’s population are not going to consent, not now, not tomorrow, and not in 10 years, under a power sharing government of Shia, Sunnis, and Kurds. Bush has truly created a no win situation.

Let’s not spill more American blood covering it up.

What exactly is this “Bush did X” propaganda?

Sure, he’s the President and, as such, the most visible focal point of the public’s attention, but Bush is not single-handedly waging a war in two countries. You see, there is a thing called “Congress,” which consists of the public’s representatives. These are the same representatives that allocate billions of dollars, approve continued military action, and manage the nations budget IN FAVOR of continued Iraq military, political, and economic involvement. So why is everyone blaming Bush and ONLY Bush for this supposed “Iraq crisis,” when the very representatives that YOU elect every three or so years are backing him up hmmmmmm? This isn’t even scratching the surface of the question of, “Why would the UN militarily and economically sanction Iraq if there wasn’t some type of threat to the free world?” CONSPIRACY yell the Democrats, followed by BLAME BUSH NOT our own freedom to vote!

“you have made the case that this administration has not used 9/11 as an excuse for their policies.”

The same logic could be used to invalidate any major political crisis which lead to military action throughout time. Pearl Harbor anyone? The assassination of Archduke Ferdinand? The sinking of the Lusitania? The civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s? That excuse, that 9/11 was just an excuse to further the non-existant ambition of one President to find cheap oil, just doesn’t hold water for me. You take a walk down the memory lane of America and tell me that the America I live in would take it up the yahoo from some nut cases after having our civilians MURDERED on national television.

You take a walk down the memory lane of America and tell me that the America I live in would take it up the yahoo from some nut cases after having our civilians MURDERED on national television.

semper, tell it to President Bush. He’s the guy who says, “I don’t know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don’t care. It’s not that important. It’s not our priority.”

I’d love to hear someone explain how invading and occupying Iraq brings Osama bin Laden to justice.

michael savage rules!!

Upholding Principles of Democracy?

How about we uphold the principles of our Constitutional Republic?