Democrats & Liberals: Archives

To be fair, tamsen, the only people who bring up the Clinton/Osama/Sudan thing are the conspiracy theorists on the right. The same people who think Clinton murdered 40-odd people in Arkansas to cover up the fact that he lost money investing in real estate.

That’s really a damning article, though. I was expecting something unverifiable, but Cressey presents a first-hand account, the NSC meetings could be verified, and Bush made the Kirma weapons lab a focal point of trying to tie al Qaeda to Saddam.

Why didn’t Bush just bomb the lab back in 2002-03? Now we know.

Unfortunately, most people on the left have become so desensitized to this kind of strategery by the President that there won’t be a massive display of outrage, and most on the right wouldn’t believe it if Bush told them himself.

Go Kerry!

This post amazes me. It demonstrates how Democrats will take totally contradictory positions if doing so allows them to attack Bush, and proves that attacking—not truth—is the real motivation. Of course, we also now have Democrats themselves on record conceding the three most basic reasons for the Iraqi war, which they usually call “lies.”

Here are the three points—note how in the zeal to attack Bush, the usual anti-war arguments are totally abandoned.

1. You’re saying that Bush should have launched preemptive attacks earlier. Specifically in 2002. Since when are Democrats so gung ho for preemption? I’m sure Bush would have enjoyed wide Democratic and UN support for attacking in 02, but hey.

2. You’re saying that there were Al Qaida training camps in Iraq before the war. Glad you’re finally admitting it.

3. These Al Qaida training camps in Saddam’s Iraq were producing chemical weapons. Usually you say there were no WMDs anywhere in Iraq, but momentary expediency has now made you give away the farm.

Tamsen:

I find it downright amusing when I see someone of your obvious intelligence simply accepting the words of another as truth, with no basis other than your partisanship as a reason.

The quote you use to “verify” your premise is simply not factual, but rather an assumption by the “military officials”. They THINK the administration did not act as a result of political reasons, but they dont really know. Yet….since it bolsters your argument, you buy into it as the pure unvarnished truth.

Should the US have gotten this guy??? Perhaps, but we all can agree that the process is far more complex than the image you try to portray. In the same vein, should Clinton have gotten OBL from Sudan? Perhaps, but we also know that there were legalities etc involved that made that situation more complex.

You seem to now be suggesting that Bush should act more decisively and quickly, without thought to the complications, yet that is precisely also what you blame him for. Which way do you want it?? Or are you planning on adopting the John Kerry “I want it both ways” platform?

Martin:

We’re always for preemption against known and valid targets. For instance, I very much supported Clinton’s order to the secret service to assasinate Osama bin Laden. Preemption can be a good thing.

It’s the preemption against entire nations that are no threat to us that we have a problem with.

Where is this strawman sale? I need to get in on it.

Perhaps the question you should be asking, Martin, is if this was the smoking gun proof that there were WMD in Iraq, why didn’t the administration use that to get the international support and Democratic backing he was sorely lacking?

Were we involved somehow? Did it really just not fit the blueprint? Or did they want to leave it as a sort of 1st victory coup, going to war before the ultimatum with the UN was even up and expecting to use it as some sort of trump?

Personally, I don’t like any of those answers.

As far as Kerry- I won’t fault a man for changing his mind once presented with more information the same way I will a man doesn’t think he- or his administration- can make mistakes. Or is it just that they don’t know how to be accountable for them?

2. You’re saying that there were Al Qaida training camps in Iraq before the war. Glad you’re finally admitting it.

My understanding is that the camps were in Northern Iraq, territory Saddam didn’t control. Liberals have acknowledged this for quite some time, but we’ve also had to point out that the existence of those camps didn’t support the cause for war because the camps were out of Saddam’s control!

Tamsen: If you will recall Clinton couldn’t fire on that location due to Saudi royals present at those coordinates. Which although I may say is a fine start would have been an international incident and even worse should Osama not even be there.

My thoughts about Islam are slowly turning from ones of diversity and multicultural tolerance even to being in defense of the palestinians, to something I think only the KKK would understand fully (I mean that only fascetiously in part).

The more war crimes I see that are perpetrated by Islam in India and Iraq and around the world the more I think that blowing up Mecca and Medina and disbanding Islam might be the right course.

Has anyone who supports diversity with Islam, ever read The Q’uran. Muhammad was a murderous bastard organizing rapes of hundreds of women for his soldiers and Beheading folk villagers that refused to convert. What we saw here is Islam, not an extreme version of it. The fact that we are fighting a religious war in the 21st century is really upsetting this is the stuff of the Corsairs of the 17th century not the democracies of today. We need to destroy the Wahabi schools in Saudi Arabia take away the power of the Shia clerics and Bathists in Iraq and tell all those apologetic Muslims that call what is happening a “deranged version of Islam” to shut the F*ck up you and your religion are part of the problem.

Think I’m being racist? Read what these Islamists have done to the peaceful people of India along the Pakistani border. I assure you the contractor from Penn is quite par for the course of the acts of Islam.

I also stand by France in it’s laws about females not wearing the head scarves in schools there. I think Islam needs to go as a religion, Muhammad was a sick pseudo prophet and so are all of it’s mullahs and many of it’s followers. And spare me the crap about Islam is peaceful read the Q’uran sometime. We may have legends in the bible that are bloody but it’s legend, Islam is a catalogue of all the horrors done to rural villagers and how devout their cult leader Muhammad was and how Allah condoned of such horrors as murder of infidels.

No more Palestine/Israeli peace plan, No more political correct tolerance, Islam is a violent brood who stalks at the door to kill the “Saturday people first then the Sunday people”(meaning jews and Christians)as they put it. It’s like having political correctness for the Manson Family, what positive thing has Islam ever done? They had a very short age of enlightenment, invented Algebra and the flying buttress and that’s it before going back to the murderous ways set out by Muhammad their prophet neandrethal.

We need to find a way to remove that religion from the planet, Please argue with my bigotry.

Your thoughts about Islam are about to land you in a load of trouble and knee-jerk PC reaction :)
Hold out your hand, skunkbud! Check into a Democratic Party reprogramming facility!

It’s interesting, isn’t it, how in the age of Oprah and Dr. Phil we subject ourselves to the most intense forms of chest-beating and self-recrimination even while we try to find excuses for the far worse behavior of our enemies. It’s the whole pathology of the “Why do they hate us?” syndrome.

It’s long past time for the so called “Arab Street” (which if you Google together with “outraged” will give you about a billion hits—unlike, say, “Arab” and “microchip”) to ask why the American Street is starting to hate them so much. The answer lies not so much in images like that of the murder of Nick Berg, but in the Arab reaction to it—they celebrate, and unlike us, don’t promise to punish the perpetrators.

Has anyone who supports diversity with Islam, ever read The Q’uran.

The same exact thing can be said about the Christian Bible.

Muhammad was a murderous bastard organizing rapes of hundreds of women for his soldiers and Beheading folk villagers that refused to convert.

Sounds kinda like the Christian crusaders, who did the same kinds of things several hundred years later.

tell all those apologetic Muslims that call what is happening a “deranged version of Islam” to shut the F*ck up you and your religion are part of the problem.

My God. Have you ever known a real-life Muslim?

Think I’m being racist? Read what these Islamists have done to the peaceful people of India along the Pakistani border.

Peaceful? The Indians won’t permit Kashmir to have a vote on whether they want to be part of India or not. It’s a majority Muslim area being occupied by what they see as a foreign power.

It should be noted that both sides have committed horrendous acts there, too… the Indians are by no means peaceful victims.

The answer lies not so much in images like that of the murder of Nick Berg, but in the Arab reaction to it—they celebrate, and unlike us, don’t promise to punish the perpetrators.

“It is painful. This is not our culture. This is not our religion. This is not us. We shouldn’t have done this.” - Cairo, Egypt

“I don’t agree to this mutilation. This is forbidden in Islam. This is not Islam.” - Baghdad, Iraq

On the other hand, we have Rush Limbaugh saying “oh, it’s just a fraternity prank - and they deserved it, anyhow.”

I knew the whole “Christian Crusaders” thing was coming—it always does. The difference is that the Crusades were actions which by no stretch can be justified by the teachings of Christ and were wars of conquests justified with religious language.

I know full well that most Muslims really are peace-loving and responsible people, and I don’t think for one second that they should be held responsible for the actions of a minority. But here are the words, for your enjoyment, of the holy prophet. You will find nothing like them at all in the teachings of Christ.

“Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57) Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim’s “inveterate enemies” (Sura 4:101). Muslims are to “arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere” (Sura 9:5) for them. They are to “seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly” (Sura 4:90). “Fight them until Islam reigns supreme” (Sura 2:193). “Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers” (Sura 8:12).Muslims must make war on the infidels who live around them (Sura 9:123). Muslims are to be “ruthless to unbelievers” (Sura 48:29).A Muslim can kill any person he wishes if it be a “just cause” (Sura 6:152). Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5)Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. (Koran 69:30-37) I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33) O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. [al-Ma’idah 5:51.11]

Sounds a lot like “Turn the other cheek” doesn’t it? Islam a religion peace? Yes, actually, for many—but how they get “peace” out of these reprehensible teachings is beyond understanding.

Well, I will agree with the main sentiment recently voiced- the fact that we are fighting a Holy war in 2004 is Very disturbing. I do not think either Christianity Or Islam, in their texts, are bastions of perfect behavior, however. Much comes from how these words are interpreted and acted upon. Hate cloaked in an American flag or one of a Muslim country is still Hate.

Not being religious myself, I would have to say that the teachings of Christ (as opposed to some of the fire and brimstone stuff of the Old Testament)actually DO represent perfect behavior. If Christians actually lived up to those teachings, they would be very nearly perfect, much better than most of them actually are.

If someone lived according to the exact teachings of Mohammed, however, they would be cutting off the heads of anybody who disagreed with Islam (which is exactly what some of them have been doing), and “lying in wait for” infidels in order to cut off their feet and the tips of their fingers. It’s funny how many people running around saying that Islam is a religion of peace have absolutely no idea what’s actually in its basic texts and are just demonstrating knee-jerk PC reactions about the loveliness and beauty of cultures they know nothing about. This is a good example of “everything I need to know in order to be a good liberal I learned in Kindergarten.”

The Koran is VERY clear, for example, than if anyone converts from Islam their own families are to gather together and kill them.

An interesting thread indeed,Tamsen, thanks for the great set of connections.

The “Right” truth is an interesting variation on ideology here if I can follow the threads of the right to their logical conclusions. We exude disgust at the evils of Islam and ignore our own disgusting leadership. We begin now to justify the hatred and hostility that led to jokes after 9/11 that expressed disdain and hatred for all Arabs. Including one that has a little boy twenty years in the future saying as the punch line, “Daddy, whats an Arab”, implying that they are all gone.

It is interesting how close to the surface that generalized hatred of the islamic people of the whole world is in some of us. The really interesting fact in this story is that the Administration is using this event, the beheading, to drum up anger and hatred so effectively. They are doing this even though the murdered man’s father thinks that they were at least in part to blame for his son’s death. That does not speak well about the independence of our Television based Press Corps. So far I have only seen a neighbor talking about how nice a boy Nick was and how sad we should be about his death. Nothing about the father’s outrage has appeared. Thank you again Tamsen.
Henri

Thank you Martin!(saves me some time)

The problem with Islam in contrast to Christianity is that they are still doing the crusading for religious reasons where within a majoritively christian society it is policy for the sake of democracy that does the guidance.

I think that we need to understand that within Islam(this sounds so biggotted)as theocratic order, (which is the end desire of such a religion)there can be no democracy. Because they are set on an combination of socialism and theocracy as above mentioned. Which turns even more sour once you add into it the oil quotient (endless source of revenues for a dictatorship). I mean I’m hoping for a democratic change there but it’s problematic when no side is willing to be observant of the need for a separation of church and state. And the problem is fundamentalist Islam. Shia, Suni both sides are just as flaky.

The more I revue over Qur’anic verse the more I see that the potential extremism is on every page. Every whacko Hadith by which these societies want to rule themselves I even found speeches by the Ayatolla Khomenei just to see the thinking processese of the Shiite movement and afterwards, shock at the thought of this being an actual party we’re leaving a democracy in the hands of. These are negotiating partners?!!

I don’t hate Muslims but things won’t change until the desire for conquest and demolition for Allah dies out. They want it all and we just want progress on their part.

I’ve even researched Turkey as a model of what I see as a modern Islamic society. It isn’t, over the past ten years over a thousand christians killed or wounded for practicing their religion, so much for the modernity of separation of church and state.

It is Islam as religion that is culprit not just the interpretations. PC won’t gloss over these reallities it has a real barbaric streak as its theological form mixed with some of the most ridiculous assertions such as yawning being the devils work, the devil living in one’s nose while they sleep(with instructions for proper removal, not kidding)the sun lands in a swamp at sundown, Women in heaven have legs that you can see bone marrow through, The devil urinates in your ears if you fall asleep directly after sundown(really I couldn’t make this stuff up)and so on and I mean so on(goes on like that).

Chauvanist instructions with stories on beating one’s wife or daughter. Taking ownership of a wife. Giving the greenlight to female clitoral castration of young girls. What to beat your wife with. Rights to rape your wife. Female slavery and ownership rights. This is not Godly stuff, folks. Not even cultural, unless barbary is the culture.

Then as Martin mentioned, warlike verse. Why do we over PC this and write it off as peaceful? In origin, Muhammad was a travelling marauding killer of peoples who believed differently than he, which to him justified that it was the will of Allah that they be killed for freedom of expression, That’s their prophet!

Hey, as a female, I have NO love for the Muslim religion itself. I will posit, however, that extremists- in any fashion of religion or philosophy leads to ill deeds. As Martin noted, the Old Testament is chock full of things very comparable to the quotes he posted (Jesus was introduced/lived later, so important to make the distinction between His teachings and the Book in general- as oft times they are at odds).

What IS important is that we lead by example. As many have said often and better than I will be able to here, there are centuries of mistrust, in-fighting, and in recent decades, dictatorial abuse to recover and grow out of. There are positive events occuring in Iraq, but these are being over-shadowed by the handling of current events (not to mention the actual occurances themselves). Terrorists aren’t going to filter video to Arab world news of the town with the running water and electricity and fully functional schools and hospitals- they are going to use any mistakes made to blow them up like a Christmas billboard and play them on endless loop to support their assertion of the U.S. as the true enemy.
Our basic underlying message (because there is an arrogant streak that- maybe earned, but is it worth it to be inflammatory- this country and especially the current heads of state have that permeates everything) is that Iraq would be better off if they were more like ‘us’; more Westernized, more civilized, more democratic (in the Greek sense of the word).

Well, because of the handling of publicity of this war and prison abuses, etc., the true face of what this country stands for and what we’re trying to convey has been muddied. We need to not only stand on history to support our claims, but continue to provide fresh, new examples of how life can improve in a democratic society- while not creating acts that has the world at large and many of our own citizens reeling back on their heels in horror and dismay.

That would be ‘handling And publicity’, my mistake.

Henri, I haven’t exuded disgust for Muslims at the expense of disgust for my leaders (even though I have serious issues with the idea of having my hands and feet cut off on opposite sides!). Tonight I am very disgusted with the hatred and hostility demonstrated by four of my leaders. They are all US Senators, and their names are Kennedy, Levin, Leahy and Kerry.

I realized (too late) that the list of senators I’m disgusted with must look terribly partisan. I apologize, and should add that I actually have deep admiration for the moral leadership and statesmanship of at least two Democratic senators—Joe Lieberman and Zell Miller.

Martin(Zell&LIEB?)one’s clearly senile and the other…well, the other is so uninteresting senility would be an improvement.

Tamsen, the democratization that we have, cannot exist in a place that is and desires to be governmentally more non-secular. If the atmosphere won’t allow for dissention can there be democracy? They need a recognized separation of Mosque and state and a separation of powers to avoid tyrranical oppression. They don’t want any of this nor see the importance in doing so.

They also need a privatization of the oil so that it isn’t a revenue geiser that does little more than attract overthrow. It’s too much of a golden carrot and through the overtaking of that country you get the means by which a militarized regime’s whims can be funded.

It’s so funny that all there are in these regions are dictatorships that do nothing for their people despite all of our influence (that Islamists claim is overtly prevalent). They have done nothing that furthers themselves socially, egalitarianly or beneficially other than oppression that seems to be the only real gross domestic product aside from oil.

Education is a key factor in the choices they make and restricts improvement. But Islam is an educational supplement for the things they educationally need to know and learn about. Islam is an easy multi interpretable subject and all of it twinged with violence and coersion in verse. They treat it as an intellectual and wise study course, a little like in divinity schools here in the west. But there Islam is zealous in the extreme, in divinity schools it’s largely subject,archeology and culture(with exception to christian fundementalist schools where it’s taken literally, frighteningly stupid too).

I am not in defense due to a christian preference, I am secular.

Martin, read your bible. There are enough gruesome acts to go around. I could probably make the case that it is a work of pure violence by merely quoting out of context a bunch of little verses that depict such violence.

But it wouldn’t be true overall. Muslims are called upon to tolerate people of the book, and did so for over a thousand years. In fact, Jews often had an easier time of things in Muslim territories than in Christian. When the Koran speaks of idolaters, it’s not refering to Christians or Jews, though some have twisted that passage in recent times.

The Koran forbids terrorism, in fact forbids all war that is not defensive in nature. Jihad can describe holy war in the military sense, but it can describe a struggle against one’s human nature. You describe a number of events, crying out, “Muslims must be evil, because they did these things at that time.” But what you fail to realize is that that many cultures of the day were as bad or worse, including those that serve as our forebears.

Additionally, Islam represents not one unified faith, but a great number of denominations and traditions that are fairly decentralized in their relationship to one another. Even among the major groups, the Shia and the Sunni, you have any number of factions. There are some Sunni who are quite reasonable and moderate, even modern. Then there are the Wahhabi. There are Shia who believe, like many protestant denominations, that church and state just don’t mix. One example is the Grand Ayatollah Sistani. That guy is one of best friends in Iraq. Contrast him with Moktada Al-Sadr and the revolutionary leaders of Iran.

To view Islam as unified threat with homogenous followers is to greatly underestimate the diversity, good and bad of that religion. To vilify it is to miss the fact that most of it’s billion followers are reasonable, decent people, people who are no less undeserving of stereotyping and demonizing than the great diversity of the billions of Christians worldwide. I won’t tell you that every Muslim is automatically our friend, but I’ll tell you that it is the height of small-mindedness to pronounce those who follow that religion our enemies.

Let me throw another dime in this payphone:

I heard an onstreet interview on CNN with an average Iraqi older male. The interviewer asked what his thoughts were on the horrible beheading and his sentiments were that they were justified for the Abu Ghraib psy-ops treatment of prisoners. We went to their country and extracted one of the worst dictators in that entire region, releasing them from nearly 30 years of tyranny, violence, torture and deathsquads and thsi action against an innocent is somehow justified. This exceeds leftism this is hatred from those we have liberated and I think by all estimates that this is a prevailing view amongst them.

We did not muddy ourselves by the Abu Ghraib photos those photos may have been staged from what lawyers are now claiming. This justifies such a horrible butcherous homicide?

Also why are we negotiating with Muktada Al “Goner” we need to light up his mosques! all P.C. crap aside this man is a cleric of a sect that villifies the influence of the west so much that their followers barbarically murder and burn. We are holding our soldiers back from the real work that they need to do, ripping this sect asunder not placating them, making them power holders in any negotiations. These are the bad-guys, really. These are not good people just ignorant brutes that need to be demolished and disbanded.

I am a lifelong democrat but enough with rationalizing our dealings with them as healthy. They don’t want democracy and will stop at nothing short of Ayatolla Khomenei styled Theocracy. That is the point of Shia and Suni to take over and impose theocratic rule.

I do think we are underestimating Islam (like Italy)and dislike is justified for their faith and their Imams and Mullahs by us. They are the preverbial t*rd in the bathtub and we accept apologetics and smoothing over of a sick theology by them. Muhammad was a spoils taking pirate and these mullahs and imams want us to believe Muhammad was anything more than an uneducated killer leading a horde. Okay (devil’s advocate) it’s a religion of peace, okay, so how long will their wonderful peace go on?

Stephen, I’ve read my Bible and my Koran, but alas, I am still not a religious man.

There is a huge difference between descriptions of bloody acts and orders to commit them—how can you not see this? Christ’s crucification is described. Mohammed orders Muslims to crucify unbelievers. See the difference now? The bloodiest parts of the Bible are in the Old Testament, and are contained mainly in the stories of the wars of the ancient Israelites. The Christian parts contain the most complete rupidiation of violence you will ever find. Christ chastices Peter, remember, for trying to defend him from the Roman soldiers when they come to arrest him.

Also, the Koran only advises Muslims to tolerate those of other faiths once they are already subjegated, living in Islamic countries and under Islamic law. Until then, it is the Muslim’s holy duty to kill them until they are subjegated. Nothing could be clearer—its there in black and white. The defensive war docrine and the rules against terrorism applies only to relations between Islamic states—states controlled by infidels get no such mild treatment. And the “jihad can be a personal struggle” stuff is just fodder from the self-help aisle—pure psychobabble which bears no relation to what the Koran actually says. If you don’t believe me, just read the Koran. Really. You need to.

Stephen,

if Islam is such a wondeful peaceful religion why is it that >A: 90%-95% of all wars ongoing today involve Islam?! And >B: Why are all muslim countries brutal dictatorships?! And >C: how much longer are we going to have this wonderful peace due to Islam?! They can’t even give themselves peace, because it’s not in Islam to do so.

CHECK OUT: WWW.HINDUUNITY.ORG -This will give you some idea what India has had to face with Islam.

What the west mistakes as radical Islam is actually true Islam and what we in the west percieve as moderate and mainstream Islam isn’t Islam at all. The Wahabists worship Islam it is the moderates that are not following Islam as instructed by Muhammad. Sounds nuts right? They are not a religion of peace.

CHECK OUT:
WWW.PRIMECHOICE.COM/PHILOSOPHY/JIHAD.htm
Secular site, lots of info on Islam.

Martin and Skunkbud, your collective ignorance astounds. Have I got a book for both of you: Irshad Manji’s “The Trouble With Islam”. It’s a modern perspective from within, and it’s costing the author her security because she dared to question mullahtocracy while still basically validating her faith and encouraging other Muslims to question also. It’s an eye-opener, and it sounds like you both could use one. Read, enjoy, and discuss amongst yourselves. And please learn to think critically of your own culture, not just others, before you go any further in your smug know-nothingness.

Let me see if I understand you, Ann.

We’ve been saying that Islam promotes violence, but we’re wrong because somebody wrote a book called “The Trouble with Islam” and is in danger of being killed for it?

Martin & skunkbud, I’m living in SE Asia right now, in the middle of the largest Muslim population outside the Middle East.

The vast majority of these people are good and kind hearted, and most of the mullahs here are very moderate (though Bush is making it hard to stay that way).

Hey Ann! How’s that job at books-a-million workin’ out for ya’? Your revues of books that you stamp a “50% off” sticker on intrigue us. Tell us more. ::))I am becoming more and more of a racist with serious doubts of Islam ever amounting to anything democratic,progressive or good.

I’m not doubting that people who have religious attachments aren’t good people or kind people my contention is with the slave-like idiocy of the faith as it takes on differing faith and sect gradations. There is but one book that defines Islam and it’s not the one that Ann pointed to it’s the Qur’an and the Haddiths. And perhaps an outline on the Nation of Islam as layed out by whack-job Elijah Muhammad and nutcase pseudo-activista Louis Farrakhan.
***Islam is the source of so much hate whereas Christianity,Hinduism,Jainism,Taoism, Judaism,Deism,Buddhism,Sikhism,Zaroastrianism, and “all” the others actually are not. In the words of Rama Krishna, “..Every mule kicks” but Islam does more than kick it terrorizes, represses, destroys, kills and rapes on a regular basis. And I’m not going to accept the general liberazzi myth-making about this. Oh they’re such good people then why the horror show on a daily basis?

Islam is the cause of 90% of our earthly wars right now, what a peaceful religion right? All this American liberal swill needs to be reevaluated, Islam is not a faith of peace nor egalitarian values. Nor did they ever really have an era of enlightenment, that is another Discovery Channel myth fed to us. They condone in the Qur’an female clitoral circumcision, we in the west think this has nothing to do with beautiful Islam, WRONG they have rules about how it should be performed! Or the subjegation, slavery, violence and brutality against women, that couldn’t be beautiful Muhammad’s Islam, WRONG it certainly is!

Please liberals I know you want to form a support circle and sing Kumbayah over Islam but atleast get a clue of what this religion is about and what it is doing the world over to people not unlike yourselves. Our Christian extremists like Pat, Billy, Ralph and Jerry are a far cry from the horror parades of Islam. Oh they’re in a struggle? They are the source of that struggle as they want nothing less than all. We hate greed right? Well that religion is about greed as Muhammad was a greedy man.

Hey Ann! How’s that job at books-a-million workin’ out for ya’? Your revues of books that you stamp a “50% off” sticker on intrigue us. Tell us more. ::))I am becoming more and more of a racist with serious doubts of Islam ever amounting to anything democratic,progressive or good.

I’m not doubting that people who have religious attachments aren’t good people or kind people my contention is with the slave-like idiocy of the faith as it takes on differing faith and sect gradations. There is but one book that defines Islam and it’s not the one that Ann pointed to it’s the Qur’an and the Haddiths. And perhaps an outline on the Nation of Islam as layed out by whack-job Elijah Muhammad and nutcase pseudo-activista Louis Farrakhan.
***Islam is the source of so much hate whereas Christianity,Hinduism,Jainism,Taoism, Judaism,Deism,Buddhism,Sikhism,Zaroastrianism, and “all” the others actually are not. In the words of Rama Krishna, “..Every mule kicks” but Islam does more than kick it terrorizes, represses, destroys, kills and rapes on a regular basis. And I’m not going to accept the general liberazzi myth-making about this. Oh they’re such good people then why the horror show on a daily basis?

Islam is the cause of 90% of our earthly wars right now, what a peaceful religion right? All this American liberal swill needs to be reevaluated, Islam is not a faith of peace nor egalitarian values. Nor did they ever really have an era of enlightenment, that is another Discovery Channel myth fed to us. They condone in the Qur’an female clitoral circumcision, we in the west think this has nothing to do with beautiful Islam, WRONG they have rules about how it should be performed! Or the subjegation, slavery, violence and brutality against women, that couldn’t be beautiful Muhammad’s Islam, WRONG it certainly is!

Please liberals I know you want to form a support circle and sing Kumbayah over Islam but atleast get a clue of what this religion is about and what it is doing the world over to people not unlike yourselves. Our Christian extremists like Pat, Billy, Ralph and Jerry are a far cry from the horror parades of Islam. Oh they’re in a struggle? They are the source of that struggle as they want nothing less than all. We hate greed right? Well that religion is about greed as Muhammad was a greedy man.