Democrats & Liberals Archives

Wolfie and Rummy? I hope you’re paying royalties to Maureen Dowd.

Here we go again: “Any time one group of people feels so superior to another that they can kill them with impunity then human rights are bound to be violated.” Baathists in naked human pyramids and putting on women’s underwear is now “killing with impunity.” As usual, the left has totally overplayed their hand—let the backlash begin.

Also, I wonder why we need an eighth thread to discuss the frat-party-gone-bad-antics of a few sexually deviant soldiers in Iraq?

Again with the frat party references. This was not a frat party. These prisoners were not joining a fraternity. They were being mistreated by American soldiers in a prison.

Regardless of whether they were POW’s, enemy combatants, terrorists, or whatever, their human rights were being violated. We supposedly hold all human rights as sacrosanct and yet you’re trying to dismiss the seriousness of the abuse of these prisoners as “no big deal”. Well it is a big deal when these abuses are cited as examples of why the U.S. is “evil” and should be destroyed.

Martin, Martin, Martin. Prominent Republicans are tripping all over themselves to say how terrible this is. Both Bush and Rumsfeld have apologized. But you claim it is not a big deal. Incredible.

As for the backlash - against whom? Rumsfeld and the DOD are being harshly criticized by lawmakers from both parties, as well as George Bush. Are people going to vote out George for being mean to Rummy?

I do think it’s a big deal, actually. But as I’ve said before, I think the Democrats (not all—but many) are seriously injuring themselves in their response. In trying to turn the bad behavior of a few soldiers into a campaign issue, they’re demonstrating an absolutely tone-deaf understanding of the predispositions of the electorate, especially those “swing voters” who everyone agrees are the most important. If I’m wrong, well, the dems have nothing to fear, but considering history, I don’t think I am. Let me at least explain and try to place this in historical context.

The Democrats—sometimes wrongly, I hasten to add—are often percieved as weak on defense. They’ve gone to great lengths to overcome the “baby-killer” rhetoric of Vietnam and to cast their opposition to war as support for the troops. This has proved very smart politics. But now—and today’s rhetoric from Senators Levin, Byrd and Kennedy demonstrate this—they’re trying to get at the president by going through the troops, by impugning their character and conduct en masse instead of focusing on the misconduct of a few.

Even those with serious misgivings about the president are not ready to condemn in general the morality of our men and women in uniform, even if they are ready to see a few bad apples punished. That’s why this is an issue likely to backfire if they don’t tone it down considerably. I can honestly say that this is the sentiment I’m hearing in conversations with even most democrats—something you get little sense of by watching the partisan fixation of this scandal being aired in the media.

>they’re trying to get at the president by going through the troops, by impugning their character and conduct en masse

That is complete BS. I defy you to find an example of any prominent Democrat collectively impugning the character of our troops. If anything, the Dems have been focusing on the chain of command rather than the troops on the ground.

Michael:

The situation at Abu Ghraib prison are not in fact frat party fodder—and you are correct for saying that. They are serious issues with guards acting in indecent and disgusting fashion. They are also acts which are fully punishable under military law.

This is the KEY!!! The people who conducted themselves in such horrifying manner will be prosecuted fully, and if found guilty, will be punished. In many countries, this would not rise to the level of even “hazing” much less “torture”. Think of the many instances in which Americans have been held—-WWII death camps, the Bataan death march, Viet Nam’s infamous Hanoi Hilton, and now, with soldiers and civilians being executed in Iraq.

This is NOT to excuse the Abu Ghraib abuse, but it IS to put it into a relative context. In the other situations I mentioned, the respective countries did NOT prosecute their people who were in charge of the torture and killings. Yet the US IS doing that….and that is part of what makes us such a great nation.

Were there abuses at Abu Ghraib——most certainly! Let us hold those involved responsible, and let us NOT blame an entire nation for the faults of a few.

>In many countries, this would not rise to the level of even “hazing” much less “torture”.

???

There are accusations of rape and murder.

Well Woody, if you defy me to do so, I’ll post some quotes from today’s hearings by Kennedy, Levin and Byrd when the the transcript becomes available (time-permitting).

In any case, as soon as somebody insinuates a systematic pattern of abuse instead of just rare instances (do you want to deny for one second that’s what’s been happening), then you’re doing exacty what I described. Even if that’s not the intention—if just getting to the bottom of things is what you’re about—the impression of smearing the troops is created if the rhetoric used isn’t very carefully handled.

I don’t doubt that justice will be served (though perhaps not to the satisfaction of certain Muslim groups). But putting things into context is irrelevant as far public perception is concerned. We’re supposed to be better than that. We’re supposed to respect human rights more than that.I don’t think it is helpful when people try to undermine the severity of these abuses. This is not about how they treat us but how we treat them. This is not how “liberators” are supposed to behave.

Some are saying that liberals are taking this too seriously or are blowing things out of proportion in order to make political hay out of it. Maybe, but I say that some conservatives aren’t taking it seriously enough in the hopes that by glossing over it, they’ll make it go away. It’s too late for that. Bush and Rumsfeld have apologized. They wouldn’t be apologizing if it wasn’t serious. It’s time for the frat party comparisons to go away.

In many countries, this would not rise to the level of even “hazing” much less “torture”.

Many of those trying to downplay this situation are viewing from a very myopic viewpoint. While in our culture, some of these could be passed off as “boys being boys” within a consentual fraternity hazing situation (yet it is still a crime in the U.S), the very different morals and values held in by the Islamic religion increase the severity of these actions. To be in mixed company, let alone naked, is a horrific crime.

You may remember a prison attack last month, in which 22 inmates died. At the time, the media and the military was at a loss to why the Iraqi insurgents would attack their own. However, NPR the other night reported that the attack came at the request of female inmates who were so humiliated by the abuse and rapes that they preferred death to facing their families again. Some may have been subjected to honor killings upon their return to their families.

This arrogance demonstrated time and time again by our military, our government and expressed by many American citizens is exactly the reason so much of the world hates us! There is not enough respect paid to different cultures, different values. That’s what initially caused bin Laden to declare war on the United States. So what do we do? Further try to impose our beliefs and values on the Middle East!

I’m just waiting for the next scandal to be that troops in prisons were baptizing inmates in return for not torturing them…

Martin, your reference to a few bad apples stands in stark contrast to Donald Rumsfeld’s and Gen. Meyers reference before the House Armed Forces Committee on Abuses in Iraq, where they referenced 18,000 Criminal investigations now underway in the Military. The situation is far from being a matter of a few bad apples. That is not to say, that the majority of our troops are honorable, respectable, and hard working men and women. But, the facts simply refute your attempts to relegate the military problems to a minor problem with a handful of soldiers or a few military contract civilian employees.

The larger issue is far more important to how we proceed from here in the world than what 6 to 8 individuals did in some prison in Iraq. The larger issue is the culture of the military since 9/11 that has been conditioned, shaped, and molded by the President, Rumsfeld, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff which has given support to gratuitous and at least from a PR point of view, hugely damaging actions by our military.

Those actions are defined by collateral damage, the killing of non-combatant women and children in a neighborhood in pursuit of one, two, or three, combatant individuals taking refuge in that neighborhood. Those actions are defined by murders of prisoners, and or course, the current torture and humiliation and total disregard or absence of knowledge of Geneva convention rules.

It was the President of the U.S. who stated a year or more ago, that he would not abide Geneva Convention laws regarding the war on terrorists. Since, the President continues to define the invasion of Iraq in terms of the war on Terrorism, it was the President himself who gave the green light to military individuals to disregard the humanity rules of the Geneva Convention.

Martin, we need to keep discipline among our troops, wherever it needs to be applied. Our commanders, all the way to the top need to know what kind of trouble is brewing, and need to stamp it out as soon as it comes to their attention. However you might try to turn this into a partisan critique of Democrat motives concerning operations in Iraq, the need remains to take care of these issues. These issues are real. Oh, one more thing: the presence of the woman in particular should not be comforting to you, as a I believe she was a translator. She’d naturally be seen with a lot of prisoners and guards.

Woody and Martin, I think you may have spoken a little too soon.
I’m curious what Frat you belonged to that raped women and little boys, and killed people?

Stay tuned guys there is plenty more to come.

Frankly, yes, there is a bit of histeria here, but your sarcasm IS a part of the problem.

I wonder how you’ll feel when Sadr’s group capture and rape some male and female U.S. soldiers and release the tapes before killing them?

I know you guys aren’t stupid, but you’re comments rank with asd’s (Bill and June)

Sarcasm? I’m confused.

I’m on the “this is actually a big problem” side. Case of mistaken identity?

I just watched a video feed of a portion of Rumsfeld’s testimony, and what bothered me the most was Rumsfeld saying that he’s sorry we had to hear about this from the news media, before the defense department could break the news to us.

That is complete bull.

Had these photos remained unreleased, we would never have heard about the extent of the activities which occured at Abu Ghirab; it would have been brushed right under the carpet. I just wish he’d stop lying through his teeth.

I don’t think he meant you Woody.

Comparing the torture and humiliation of prisoners to that of the behaviour of frats, is staggeringly ignorant. The context in which this has taken place is light years away from that of privaleged college kids in the richest country in the world. The seriousness of this should be clear to all, if only by the fact that GWB almost fell over himself in his haste to show contrition to the Arab world.

This is, apart from any moral considerations, an unmitigated PR disaster. And in an international war against terrorism it is key that you win people over to your cause. I don’t live in the US but for that last few years I’ve watched with slight bemusement as public opinion of America has plumbed new lows. And just when you think it can’t go any lower…what with scant international support for the invasion, no WMDs, incompetent mishandling of the post-war operations…this happens. And while this doesn’t render the removal of Saddam as wrong or unjust, it has in the eyes of the world, sunk America’s claims for the moral high ground.

I doubt the US has ever been as unpopular as it is right now, and it will take more than a change of President to fix this.

Holy overheated rhetoric, Batman!

“I’m curious what Frat you belonged to that raped women and little boys, and killed people?”

Aside from the fact that everything you just said alludes to as yet unproven accusations and not the photographs (so far publicized) that I was referring to, what I actually said is “a-frat-party-gone-bad.” Frat parties can go pretty bad, you know. People are sexually humiliated, occasionally raped, and people have occasionally even died. Pyramids of naked people, men wearing women’s clothes, a naked man on a leash (all photos featuring the same woman—in case you think this stuff is wider spread than it acutally is) are terrible things by American standards—as are most frat parties. Don’t get me wrong.

Perhaps this is a bad comparison—I won’t make it anymore since it seems to get so many people into a tizzy. But nine tenths of what you guys are saying is just as bad. For example, we as yet do not have evidence of murders and rapes (although it’s hinted that they may be forthcoming). And if it’s not right to make comparisions to frat-parties, neither is it appropriate to use rhetoric which is better suited to talking about the Holocaust, Stalin’s porgrams, or Saddam’s prisons BEFORE they were run by the US. It’s amazing to see the left, desparate to score political points at the expense of an issue of concern to ALL Americans, suddendly demanding that anyone accused of crimes be assumed guilty until proven innocent. I guess waiting around for trials before letting loose with accusations of “murder” and “rape” isn’t good politics for the ABB crownd, and this lynch-mob menatilty is more immediatly gratifiying.

Sorry Woody, my mistake.

It amazes me, Martin, what you will defend. Don’t drink the kool-aid.

The positive thing is that in America, things like this when they come to light ARE at least superficially dealt with.

Bush, not the Dems has done this all by himself and now he can’t even yell Hillary and Bill did it.

Martin, If you can’t see how stupid this policy is then you are walking in goose step.

This is facism, pure and simple. Win the hearts and minds—-give me a break! You actually believed that rhetoric? Which dictator was worse?
Hitler, Stalin, or Bush? If you were the victim which would you prefer to die at the hand of? The point, Martin, is not comparing evils. The point is evil is evil.

Fortunately, not everyone here has conceded the idea of democracy. Now the light shines on the cockroaches. I do believe the House of Bush is about to implode.

Mr. Bush’s arrogance has served him well with those who suffered the Anybody But Clinton sycophants. Now, maybe not so well.

I haven’t for one instant defended the actions of the soldiers we’ve all seen photos of. Those people need to go to prison themselves, and I’ve said so repeatedly. I’m just saying that we need to pull back a bit from some of this extreme rhetoric and not see “the crime of century” in the stupid and deplorable but nonlethal (as far as we yet know from those photos) acts of a few soldiers.

A little restraint is expecially in order while our troops are still in the field (cockroaches? evil? fascism?), and we mustn’t start forming lynch mobs before the facts are in.

I commend John Kerry, actually, for keeping a fairly judicious tone about this so far.

Martin wrote

For example, we as yet do not have evidence of murders and rapes… It’s amazing to see the left, desparate to score political points at the expense of an issue of concern to ALL Americans, suddendly demanding that anyone accused of crimes be assumed guilty until proven innocent. I guess waiting around for trials before letting loose with accusations of “murder” and “rape” isn’t good politics for the ABB crownd, and this lynch-mob menatilty is more immediatly gratifiying.

Lynch mob eh? Well, this is what the Secretary of the Army Les Brownlee had to say

The CID investigates every death in our custody. Of the 25 death investigations, CID has determined that 12 deaths were due to natural or undetermined causes, one was justifiable homicide, and two were homicides. The 10 remaining deaths are still under investigation.

Two homicides, and ten deaths still under investigation. Is Secretary Brownlee part of the Bush-hating lynch mob?

Speaking of strong words, howsabout this from Rumsfeld himself?

(T)here are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence toward prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman.

It’s hard to top that.

and we mustn’t start forming lynch mobs before the facts are in.

The problem with that Martin is the “facts”, or rather the dirty facts, seem to fail to reach us. Now certainly this is commonplace in times of war, so it isn’t like this is limited to the Bush Administration or the current military heirarchy, but it certainly seems to a lot of us that the current administration/military is going beyond even “normal” wartime methods to keep many things under a cloak of secrecy. This ordeal only goes to drive my point home; it was only when they were caught with their pants down that they actually became proactive about it, despite the fact that the Red Cross, for instance, was claiming that Iraqi prisoners were being “abused” almost a year and a half ago.

Now you often point out (accurately) that we only have proof of a few instances of criminal behavior on behalf of our military. Plus some rumors of other abuses, which apparently you won’t give ANY credence to unless you have visual proof at hand. Now even if these rumblings are substantiated that doesn’t necessarily indicate a “systematic” problem, but the converse of that is true as well; sure we may be dealing with a few isolated incidents, but you seem to refuse to acknowledge even the POSSIBILITY that there might be some dubious practices being encouraged or facilitated up and down the chain of command. I don’t think that’s such a unfair postulation to make considering we’re being led by an administration that looks to meet its objectives (whether they are for good or ill) without much regard for international law or the geneva convention provisions that might prevent such (possible)atrocities from occurring.

Cody, the rumors are troubling and need to be investigated. Absolutely. I don’t discount or uncritically accept them—right now it’s wait and see.

the political ramifications of such investigations leads me to wonder how thourough such investigations will be. Both parties are to blame for this, but as I suggested above, you seem unwilling to accept that a lot of, perhaps the large majority , the “truth” is being swept under the rug. If nothing else, the pictures and the other rumors increase the liklihood that there is much more that we don’t know.

Actually, Cody, I think we agree that this is something we need to get the bottom of, wherever it takes us. Like you, I want the whole truth to come out. All I’ve have been saying so far is that the verifiable facts as of yet are not as dire as some of the allegations. This isn’t even about political allegiances, as far as I’m concerned. The accused people are like you and me—average Americans, as far as I can tell, who may have done some awful things. Having seen on the news the life stories of the soldiers in question, they remind me of my neigbors, people I went to school with—not my congressmen, not politicians running for office. To me, this looks like a story more about the capacity for wrong-doing that lurks in every human soul than a campaign issue, which some want to turn it into for their own reasons.

But allow me to disagree on one point: “It was only when they were caught with their pants down that they actually became proactive about it.” This story became public BECAUSE it was already under investigation by the military. The appropriate judicial proceedings were well away before the story broke on this scale in the news. This is hardly sweeping it under the rug.