May 06, 2004
Bad Apple or Bad Tree?
The prisoner abuse scandal continues to widen, just a day after Bush went on arabic language television to condemn such actions.
Now, additional photos showing abuse have surfaced. Many are even worse than those previously released. Included in the latest batch include a photo of a female soldier holding a leash attached to the neck of a naked Iraqi prisoner and a photo of a prisoner chained to a bed frame with women’s panties over his head.
The finger-pointing has increased as this scope of this story has grown. So far, nobody wants to take the blame but there are many to blame. On CNN last night, Paula Zahn interviewed Guy Womack, the lawyer for one of those facing court marshall for his participation. He blamed President Bush for going on Arab TV and saying that those responsible will be dealt with, because he feels his client cannot get a fair trial. He also was adamant that his client was innocent despite photographic evidence!
A brief except from Paula Zahn's show:
ZAHN: Mr. Womack, I want to start off tonight by all of us looking at a picture of your client with his arms folded behind the pile of naked Iraqi soldiers. Are you going to tell me tonight there is an innocent explanation for your client's actions?WOMACK: Yes. Yes, there is.
ZAHN: And what are they?
WOMACK: He was complying with orders that he believed to be lawful.
How could sexual abuse EVER be believed to be lawful!!! It's not lawful when a pedophile does it. It's not legal when fraternity hazing involved this type of behavior. Sexual abuse is sending dozens of priests to prison and costing the Catholic Church hundreds of millions of dollars in settlements. The Geneva Convention forbids sexual abuse. And yet these soldiers are claiming they were "simply following orders?" Womack stated in the interview that, "You can only refuse to obey those orders that you know must be unlawful. We don't want soldiers debating the niceties of an order during time of war. If an order appears to be lawful or could be lawful, you have an obligation to obey it."
But first, how could anyone possibly think that such actions would be lawful, in spite of what he had witnessed in the prison prior to taking part himself. And while it may be a "time of war" this was certainly not an active combat situation. Maybe one could justify actions in the heat of the moment on the battlefield. But these events took place within a prison and against restrained prisoners.
But certainly, not only those shown in the photos are to blame for the abuse. There clearly seems to be orders from above which lead to this behavior. While it's not known how explicitly the orders were -- were they told to sexually humiliate the prisoners or simply "soften them up" for interrogation -- orders were not given that ensured the Geneva Convention would be followed.
The breakdown in control goes higher, however. These events took place because there was not an adequate level of training for the troops and officers deployed to the region. Many are National Guard who never expected to face combat or war situations and whose training reflected that. In addition to the lack of battlefield training, they also received inadequate training on rules of international law and local customs. These oversights go all the way back to the Pentagon, which did not adequately prepare their plans for war and the ensuing rebuilding process. Somebody needs to take the fall for this, probably Donald Rumsfeld. Bush has already chastized him for these acts, but it is not enough to demonstrate to the global community that we are in fact outraged. If Rumsfeld is not held accountable for these latest acts, then Bush's support pretty much implicats himself and the rest of his administration in these acts as well.
The world view of the United States has been greatly tarnished by these events. Already stung by the global anti-war sentiments, we've greatly harmed our credibility as the world's "liberator" and "bearer of democracy."
And as the world no longer looks to the U.S. as it keeper of peace and instiller of values, our global influence wanes. The world will no longer passively sit back and simply tell us not to do something. They will begin to act against us. We may have the resources and the will to fight the Taliban or even Sadam Hussein. But what about when the entire Middle East actively declares war on us? What about when our allies of Europe are on the other side of a conflict?
The hubris of past empires have caused their rapid declines, as the continuation of their ambition causes the military costs to strain the general economy. Ancient Greece and Rome, Nepoleonic France, Great Britain, Third Reich Germany, USSR, etc. Paul Kennedy outlines these downfalls in his book The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers. We also learn that history repeats itself time and time again. It's beginning to look more and more like the Unted State's time is coming to a close as well.
blipsman, this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. I am pleased to see the media take the chain of responsibility up to Rumsfeld, so far. As I pointed out in There Are No Scapegoats, the ultimate responsibility for widespread violations of Geneva conventions and human abuses by us in an invasion we elected, is the Commander in Chief. And the polls are showing the a majority of Americans are no longer confident Bush is leading this country where it should be going.
It was so predicatable for Bush to publicly lay the blame at Rumsfeld’s feet. But, behind closed doors you can bet there was a deal made. Bush agrees to not fire Rumsfeld for political gain provided Rumsfeld backs up the claim that Bush was not aware of any of this until it aired on TV. A deal that might hold up, if the majority of the public does not cry out for Rumsfeld’s dismissal.
Don’t you love politics from the outside. I wouldn’t want to be in Bush’s shoes for all the money in Microsoft.
Posted by: David R. Remer at May 6, 2004 12:55 PMAs a Veteran, and out of respect for those serving, I have tried to stay out of this debate, but the total disregard for the tenants of the Geneva Convention these photos represent compel me to day my piece. All (civilian contractors as well), should be publicly punished, that is their trials should be broadcast worldwide so that the Iraqi people and indeed the world can see that American justice is swift and impartial. All of the military members involved, from the commanding General on down should be court-martialed. Their behavior was reprehensible, and the world should know that they do not represent us!
As for leadership from the Bush Administration: do not look for any. It has been lacking thus far, and nothing leads me to believe it will be forthcoming any time soon. American is faulting, in decline, and less then 300 years after her storied founding. This has been a dark week for the U.S. military once a proud, professional fight force. What has happened to American principles, American ideas, and American morals? Those me and women had to know that what they were doing was unlawful. Let them not now hide behind that tired phrase, “I was only fallowing orders.”
News reports show a new American hostage has been captured, Aban Elias of Denver, Colorado. After what our troops have done to the Iraqis, I really feel for this guy…
Posted by: blipsman at May 6, 2004 02:24 PMI completely agree with all the disgust about the prisoner photos, its shameful. Of course, the left is going to try to make political hay against Bush for this- as the right would if this was done under a democrat president (that would be impossible though!). The reason this happend is we have several hundred thousand soldiers over there and as much as everyone loves to praise soldiers, in EVERY group of this size there will be a big bunch of terrible people- and terrible people do terrible things. I doubt this is much worse than any other similar size force has done in history or will do. that does NOT make it ok in ANY way, but the explanation is rather simple.
As for “Ancient Greece and Rome, Nepoleonic France, Great Britain, Third Reich Germany, USSR, etc. Paul Kennedy outlines these downfalls in his book The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers. We also learn that history repeats itself time and time again. It’s beginning to look more and more like the Unted State’s time is coming to a close as well.”
So many false historical assumptions in there that I will only hit a few. Ancient Greece was a combination of city states- i guess you could refer to sparta, which was the most belicose- but the reason they went was cause of Phillip II-Alexander having a much better army. Third Reich-um, yeah, they lasted for about 15 years and were defeated by armies from most of the world- i am not even sure how they got on this list. USSR- they were run on a perverse ideology and faded away when the comperative productivity of capitalism showed how rotten the system was at the corp. Realizing this, leaders like Gorbachov tried to westernize Russia- but all this led to was destroying what little was left of teh system (this is likely what will happen to China if they continue to try to mix capitalism with their rotten socailist ideology). As for Rome- i dont know if there could be a less apt analogy. the Roman empire fell in large part because they STOPPED sending out troops into the rest of the world and became a lot more isolationist.
The United States is currently the most prosperous, powerful and strong nation in the history of the world. Someday it will not be so- but even if we lose our resolve and fail in Iraq (like we failed in Vietnam), this wont even come close bringing us down. It will take something much much bigger.
Posted by: Misha Tseytlin at May 6, 2004 04:38 PMMisha, a hundred years ago, the sun couldn’t set on British territory. Now, most of those territories are not only independent of Britain, but of the West in general. Same for France, Germany, whatever. The falls, when they came were precipitous, taking only decades, somes even a few years.
There are many minor, but ultimately crucial elements that go into maintaining great power, and the loss of any one of them can spell the end of a nations leading role in the world.
There were probably soldiers of great character, in just about every great power’s armies. But when a great power commits itself to immoral ends, and compels disgraceful behavior, or when such a power fails to rein in those morally bankrupt people who commit such atrocities, the supposed morality of the majority, or of the country in general can quickly come to mean little in the eyes of those who are imposed upon by that army.
In short, we cannot rely on chance, and our national glory to get us out of problems like this. We need to make an intention, conscious choice as a nation not to blame the victims, claim the crimes of other’s as mitigating our own, pretend that it’s not happening, or dismiss it as a minor concern.
Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at May 6, 2004 04:56 PMThe reason this happend is we have several hundred thousand soldiers over there and as much as everyone loves to praise soldiers, in EVERY group of this size there will be a big bunch of terrible people- and terrible people do terrible things.
This is absolutely true, and in fact they were discussing this on MSNBC or CNN this morning while I was getting ready for work. The retired 4-Star General who was on said that the military knows 2-3 of every 100 soldiers are sociopaths (compared to 5-6 in the general population). But that’s where the extensive training of bootcamp and order execution come into play—the costs are too high to let the weakest links break the chain. So that means that either these troops were inadequately trained, they were simply following orders from somebody higher up who was not following HIS orders, or this behavior was condoned and ordered from high up. Whatever the case, acts took place which should not have taken place. That there are going to be bad apples isn’t a way to brush it off. The military infrastructure is supposed to prevent this from affecting the overall plan. They need to determine where the breakdown occurred and fix the problem. Because we can’t have 5 or 6 rogue soldiers having such a dramatic affect on the outcome of a military action.
Posted by: blipsman at May 6, 2004 05:04 PM
***What seems strange to me is that how over the last few years the US military personel have been percieved as infallible in our media after 9-11(please read entire post before posting). We are quite celebratory of them on the news and in other media. And to say this or bring it up is politically incorrect in today’s environment.
See we went from criticisms over TAILHOOK and submarines emerging out of local fishing waters in Japan to rapes overseas and knocking down high-wire Italian gondola lines with airplane hotdogging, to now in recent times almost a worship of abject centurionism. Now I’m sure I’m going to get some criticism with this post but damn-it it’s true.
Enough’s enough with our American centurion worship what these military personnel were doing was Wrong. Screw Fox News,Screw CNN,Screw media agencies that gloss this over.
There is no one watching the watchdogs when the watchdogs are the center of our blind reverence. Don’t goddamn cry to me about how they protect our freedoms and how we should all laud over each and every one of them for there honor (we know that their service is important). But there are those that are trained in how to do some very bad things worse and far worse than anything depicted in any of these pictures and we have to grow up and understand that.
Superman exists only in comicbooks. There are variables of grey and our worship of the American Centurion does not do anything but keep us blindfolded to the truth about what some soldiers are being trained to do.
This isn’t bad-appleship this is a Psy-op tactic they are trained to do this, to sexually humiliate. Gloss it over as much as you want American lemming but if this shocks you just know that it gets worse as some are trained to do far worse. Sometimes just out of retaliation, sometimes out of mandate.
Did you know,for instance that we send people out to Syria and Egypt for torture to get answers? Huh? Well that is a fact! Torture by acid and various forms of mutilation in other countries at our behest.
Even in our militaries we use sleep and food deprivation tactics along with sexual humiliation tactics as you saw pictured.
Why do we worship our Centurionism so much so that we can’t see the truth, war is war. Weep the crocadile all you want but some are trained to make very bad things happen in the service of our United States.
I am not pro-troops nor certainly Anti-supportive for saying this my thought are blindfaith will get us in trouble every friggin’time.
Here’s what pisses me off. In our American Hubris and ignorance what we aren’t seeing is that these people were picked up off the streets and from their homes and delivered here.
If there are any military people on this thread how would you like it if it was your house stormed and 30 narmed soldiers took your son or daughter off to a torture camp or prison no matter how hard you pleaded. So spare me the f*ckin’ honor crocadile horse-sh*t, This is a wrong action and you are a damned pussy for not standing up for the rights of the potentially innocent in your own blind-faith daring to criticize that which requires policing. I know our military is important to our survival as a nation but wake-up out of the glossed over reverence and see the world without the camoflage-lens glasses.
You may claim that there are no such things as civillians, oh yeah! why are our lives of so much more worthy than theirs because of their naturalization as a people in our pampered American eyes?
If a group of armed men stormed an American household it would be on the evening news in an hour. But these people don’t have that luxury we have become the British Tories that we fought so hard to remove from our soil, The Roman insurgeants that conservatives with their bibles so read stories of Jesus facing. We have become the British colonializers that Ghandi stood up against. WE may be on a helpful course on the outside but within the effort there could potentially be and innevitably are very bad deeds.
Posted by: skunkbud at May 6, 2004 05:26 PMI haven’t seen anything as atrocious as those photos since the fall, when the frat brothers at the local university hazed their pledges.
I don’t want to defend the soldiers responsible—they deserve to be punished, and harshly, but come on! I’m not saying it’s no big deal—it is a very big deal—but only by the extraordinarily high standards our soldiers have set by their conduct elsewhere. Iraqis summarily executed our soliders; they anally gang-raped Jessica Lynch. Where was the so-very selective outrage of the Arab world and the Europeans when all of this happened?
I ask any of you: Would you rather be a prisoner in Abu Ghraib today or 18 months ago? Be forced to wear a woman’s panties or get hanged by your own entrails from a hook?
Those who put an end to the Abu Ghraib atrocities of yesterday are the very same people putting an end to the abuses there today—a fact lost, apparently, on Al Jazeera and a large portion of the American left. And you all finally have the apology from Bush for something—anything—that you’ve been wanting for so very long.
In any case, let’s just see how much political hay the left can make attacking the decency of our soldiers in Iraq instead of just the decency of a few obviously bad apples. We hate to see our soldiers humiliating prisoners—and we’ll condemn for that.
And if it’s proven that enemy soldiers were killed in custody, it will be a far more serious matter and more serious punishment should be doled out. Enemy soldiers dying in custody, however, when they may as many probably were already wounded in battle, is just not enough. More needs to be learned—and the authorities are investigating.
Anybody notice, incidentally, that’s the same female soldier shows up in most of these pictures—proof of the tiny minority who appear to have been involved.
Posted by: Martin at May 6, 2004 05:50 PMYou and Rush can try to dismiss this as a prank as much as you want. You can cite abuses against US troops all you want. You can gush over how mush better conditions are now. None of it can lessen the damage this has done to US credibility regarding human rights. And it certainly won’t encourage proper treatment of American captives in the future.
Posted by: Michael at May 6, 2004 06:40 PMMartin,
A: this is a trained tactic that is employed because it has been proven a useful tool. Just like the parading of naked prisoners through the streets. I think this is widespread but in small clusters and groups. Because It doesn’t take many just as long as they have the arms to back up what they are doing.
But I agree on one thing it is a far cry from the abuses of the Bathists. But we send prisoners out to countries like Syria and Egypt to do real torturing for us. Perhaps even executions.
We are very much like the Israelis and Mossad in terms of how we conduct measures to be very well hidden in bureaucratic backloading. In other words this is what emerges but the other things like shipping off combatants to other countries is kept in unexposed file media-wise.
It amazes me how little actual journalism is done over there. The overseas press is so completely in tow with the military that there really is very little independent journalism. Perhaps on the internet(How much of which is true?)which has proven a useful underground tool for research on new unclassified info and militarily unapproved photos but still the mainstream press is military clay and under the thumb. Given safety in housing and grants to do the reporting, there is very little contrary insight as to what’s happenning there on the ground really.
We watch the 24 hours news stations and are baffled and sidelined from what’s actually going on street-wise. Repeated images and buzz-terminology and new military media words emerge but the street level stuff is still largely submerged from view.
Posted by: skunkbud at May 6, 2004 06:50 PMWow, I am really liking the lengthy skunkbud
diatribe! Really good stuff… The attempt to say “isolated incident” reminds me of the typical news reaction whenever a videotape emerges of cops beating up black people… so does the morally vacant “they’re under a lot of pressure” argument.
I learned by the way that part of that prison is named after one of the firemen killed in the 9-11 attacks. There you go - the psychological justification for whatever goes on is right there in the name of the prison. Dish out some hurt. Payback. Never mind that these aren’t the people responsible for 9-11, or that the US invaded Iraq, and that what the Iraqis who are in the prison have done is patriotic
self-defense by any reasonable standard.
Seeing that picture of that Iraqi prisoner on the leash being led around by that female soldier kind of reminded me of the little game Monica Lewinski and I used to play. She would take my necktie and tie me up and I would bark like a dog while she called me a “bad little mongrel.” Then I would rear back on my hind legs, growl and bark, then shove a cigar up her twat while barking out the Star Spangled Banner. God, I miss being president. Bill Clinton
Posted by: Bill Clinton at May 6, 2004 08:58 PMBill Clinton, is that the best you can come up with, that’s sad.
(Keep dayjob)
Posted by: skunkbud at May 6, 2004 09:02 PMHey Skunkbud…do you know where an ex-president can get some skunkbud? Me an Monica want to play “hide the spleef” if you know what I mean. Bubba Clinton
Posted by: Bill Clinton at May 6, 2004 09:18 PMYes I’m a stay-at-home dealer.
But hide and go spleef? That’s wasting perfectly good bud. Sn*tch-bong is a much better game, Bill.
(Dear god why am I getting into this?)
Posted by: skunkbud at May 6, 2004 09:32 PMWhy don’t you just call me, Bill? I can help you out, bro!
Posted by: Roger Clinton at May 6, 2004 09:35 PMSkunkbud? You guys are a bunch of pansy lightweights! Marijuana, HA! Here try this….
Posted by: Marion Berry at May 6, 2004 09:50 PMBill-Roger where’s the cleverness really?
Okay you used a hackneyed and uninventive political stereo-type as your subject matter surprising no one.
Secondly the monica thing, Jeezus christ man, pick a topic from this century cuz that would have been mildly funny circa 1998. In 2004 it sucks. Then Roger Clinton, wow break out the A-list material why don’t ya’? Oooh Don’t hurt us with your humor!
Now listen..carrot top..your mom’s probably callin’ you for dinner. Remember tomorrows a school day…
Posted by: skunkbud at May 6, 2004 09:54 PM
Hey Skunkbud…who would YOU rather play “sniff the stinkpole” with. Monica or Hillary. Lighten up on me OK? Vote for Kerry though.Thanks Bill Clinton
Posted by: Bill Clinton at May 6, 2004 09:59 PMMarrion Barry now,1993.
Holy crap. Somebody get this kid a Tv. Son, do you live out in the Ozarks? Is your mama and poppa cuzzins?
Have you ever heard your sister say to your Father:
“Daddy,daddy pleez git offa me, you’s crishin’ my ciggy-rets!”
D’yall sit around watchin’ Nascar? Is a trip to the flea market considered shoppin’?
Posted by: skunkbud at May 6, 2004 10:10 PMHey skunkbuddy, you know I grew up in Hope Arkansas. I dont know if my cousins had sex or anything like you said, but I once tried to screw a rooster because my next door neihbor dared me. DONT TRY IT!!! It hurt the rooster and I got a nasty right bend to my little helmeted billy, as stated by Paula Jones in her deposition to Kenn Starr. By the way, dont forget my smoke. Thanks Bill Clinton
Posted by: Bill Clinton at May 6, 2004 10:18 PMYeah I’ll bet you know your way around a Billy Ray Cyrus album or two, huh?
(Stop the Bill C. impression it’s terrible)
Posted by: skunkbud at May 6, 2004 10:33 PMHey Bill!! turn on the TV quick your momma’s on cops! I recognized her by the mullet.
Posted by: skunkbud at May 6, 2004 10:39 PMPlease stop this nonsencical exchange between these two children. This is a political blog, not an audition for Conan. Skunkbud, go to your room, and for you Bill Clinton, stop it. By the way, thanks for whacking off in the sink and then shaking my hand as stated in the Starr report and Monica’s depostition. My hand still stinks! Yasser Arafat
Posted by: Yasser Arafat at May 6, 2004 10:44 PMYou wanna have a real flame-fight Bill/Yassir/Roger,
Come on over to BRAWLHALL.COM try your material over there.
Posted by: skunkbud at May 6, 2004 10:54 PMthe person who posted as bill was not the same as the person who posted as roger…trust me on this one.
Posted by: a poster at May 6, 2004 11:36 PMWhitney doesn’t know what she is talking about. Crack is the shiiiiit!!! I can’t get enough!
Posted by: Robert Downey, JR. at May 6, 2004 11:43 PMIsn’t it interesting how, in a situation where there is no justification for what happened, where there is no possible way to spin the issue so that the President looks good, the subject gets changed. :)
What happened was bad. Bush says he didn’t know the extent of the abuses until the pictures came out, even though six months earlier he knew abuses had taken place.
President Bush must have realized the potential diplomatic and PR nightmare that prisoner abuses might cause. Why didn’t he follow up on it? What kind of leader is President Bush, that he didn’t show enough interest in something that has the potential to derail everything he’s done in Iraq, so far? Everything that Americans are fighting, bleeding and dying for?
To insist on swift punishment for the perpetrators six months later, only after the pictures went public just looks like a lame attempt at ass covering.
As for Rumsfeld, Bush won’t fire him. Most administrations coalesce around a shared vision of a better America. The Bush administration is held together by an intense code of personal loyalty. Rumsfeld may have made a bad mistake, but he’s still loyal to George W. Bush, so that loyalty will be reciprocated.
V Edward, you are right not to expect any leadership from President Bush. It’s through lack of leadership that this situation arose. President Bush has never truely led this country in any endeavor. He has coerced, lied, tricked, and manipulated, but never led.
“To insist on swift punishment for the perpetrators six months later, only after the pictures went public just looks like a lame attempt at ass covering.”
What’s getting lost in this discussion is that the military itself uncovered, began investigating and intitiated judicial proceedings in this matter. Some want to believe that the media broke this story and the administration response is just damage-control, but that’s just false—you only have to look at the sequence of events.
The abuse photos only emerged when a concerned soldier brought them forward to his commander, who got the investigation rolling—then, and only then, did CBS learn about it. This is a story about the military cleaning its own house. The “six months” ago thing is a red herring—there may have been rumors of abuse, but the evidence of the photos still hadn’t emerged.
All Bush and Rumsfeld have to say is that the authorites were already taking care of the problem. Because that’s the truth.
Posted by: Martin at May 7, 2004 10:33 AMMartin, the abuses happened more than six months ago. The pictures have been circulating among the troops since. You can bet that part of the military investigation focused on finding the pictures. In fact, Rumsfeld just hinted at upcoming movies of rape and murder (his description, not mine).
Yes it was being investigated, yes Rumsfeld mentioned it to the press (though not to Congress) a while ago. The problem is, a disastrous moral and PR failure occurred, and though the President knew there was a potential problem, he never stayed on top of it. He says he only knew about the pictures after he saw them on TV, though the Pentagon knew the media had them at least two weeks before they aired.
Had the whole incident been dealt with swiftly six months ago, there wouldn’t be any talk of cover-up.
The fact is, GW is obviously not a detail guy. He’s obviously not the kind of guy to successfully run any sort of operation, much less be President of the United States. He was a C student at Yale, for crying out loud. You apparently have to be pretty damn dumb to get a C at Yale.
If I’m holding the President of the United States to too high a standard of intelligence and critical thinking, then I’m sorry… the Hell I am!
Martin,
Actually what you are saying is true about self policing. I did a bit more research and the military certainly did police themselves and yes the penalizing although neccessary is window dressing in many regards.
It appears that the military does have a good degree of protocol within it’s own justice system and the bringing forward of this is almost anti-mission. In terms of wanting to represent to the Iraqi people, America as a source of positive changes. But then again they’ve probably seen enough of the dark side to us (or darkside in general)that this can be smoothed over easily in Iraq but in The US it’s much more thorned.
I don’t agree with it as who knows who they had there and for what reason but the self-policing is admirable as well as unexpected.
And it is funny how the press is almost taking credit for breaking a story that house broke itself.
It’s unheard of I can’t remember a story in the military that broke this way other than stories of sexual harrassment or sexual violations. But on overstepping the Geneva convention?
Posted by: skunkbud at May 8, 2004 08:59 AMThere is an interesting article on this subject in the New York Times. (You need to be registered to read it)
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/08/national/08IMAG.html
This little mess stinks of cover up and scapegoats.
I think Bush and friends needed WMD and Al-Qaeda in Iraq, so they looked the other way hoping to get the info they needed to put them over the top in November.
However, I am a big enough cynic to believe that the only thing to come out of this will be the banning of digital camera use by U.S. troops. (You heard it here first folks!)
